GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM

Title: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"  

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."  

          ~ Gustav Mahler





1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Beethoven.jpg/480px-Beethoven.jpg)


Edit:

(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/bilder/en/portal/kollage_03_koepfe.jpg)

Beethoven Resources:

The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music  (http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven.html)

Beethoven Haus Bonn  (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php//portal_en)

LVBEETHOVEN.COM  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html)

Raptus Association for Music Appreciation site on Beethoven  (http://www.raptusassociation.org/)

Beethoven the Immortal  (http://www.lucare.com/immortal/)

The Beethoven Reference Site  (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/index.php)

One Stop Beethoven Resource  (http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/Your_OneStop_Beethoven_Resource.htm)

All About LvB  (http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony9.html)

Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:32:36 AM
Currently, my favorite works of Beethoven are these:

1. Missa Solemnis

2. Piano Concertos 4 and 5

3. Piano Sonatas 29-32 + Waldstein/Tempest/Appassionata/Pathetique

4. Symphonies 3/5/6/7/8/9

5. Ghost and Archduke Trios

6. Late String Quartets

7. Diabelli and Eroica Variations

8. Violin Concerto

9. Overtures to Egmont; King Stephen; Lenore #3

10. Violin Sonatas / Cello Sonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 03:39:49 AM
D Minor....I once encountered someone of that name elsewhere, but he knew little about music. D

Good old Beethoven.....

My favorite piece is The Missa Solemnis, it was a late piece, he took three years perfecting it and wrote on the title page. "From the heart, to the heart." He must have been a master musician to compose what he could not hear: by looking at it on the page he must have known how it would sound.
I recently sang it and did wonder at some of the demands he makes on the Basses in the choir where he wants a great deal of volume in notes where basses cannot generally produce a great deal, and this amongst thick textures. I wondered if he had been able to hear, would he have altered the writing? But quite possibly not and what he asks for contributes to the element of physical effort that is so much part of the piece.



A whole new world opens up, I can now repeat what I wrote elsewhere!

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 03:41:38 AM
I see we have put the same piece as top, but possibly next I would have to have the first of the middle period string quartets. I have the Quartet Italiano unfurling that staggering melody that opens the first movement.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on April 06, 2007, 03:46:33 AM
My favourite works would be all what the fellow has composed, apart from the vocal works that is!
I am really serious about that, I simply adore all his works, and I am unable to single out one work!
Symphonies by Herbert von Karajan, Quartetto Italiano, and Vegh for the SQ, ans so on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:47:24 AM
Quote from: knight on April 06, 2007, 03:39:49 AM
A whole new world opens up, I can now repeat what I wrote elsewhere!

Exactly!  ;D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 04:03:00 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 06, 2007, 03:46:33 AM
My favourite works would be all what the fellow has composed, apart from the vocal works that is!

Harry,  I agree that his lieder are very much off my radar screen . . . . . .

Quote from: knight on April 06, 2007, 03:41:38 AM
I see we have put the same piece as top,

For me, Missa Solemnis took a long time to reach the top, as it had to wrestle beyond the symphonies, sonatas, and concerti.  8)  Piano Concerto no. 4 in G Major was particularly stubborn as my favorite Beethoven work . . . . . . but even it has succumbed to Missa Solemnis . . . . . . . [insert halo smiley]

All things considered, my favorite recording of Missa is Klemperer/New Philharmonia:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e9/36/d7aaa2c008a059fde0697010.L.jpg)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 04:10:48 AM
At to recordings of the Missa....I am still looking for my holy grail, I hear rumours of a stupendous Szell version that is not generally available. In the meantime, I have the 1st Karajan with Janowitz gracing the top line, Toscanini for sheer adrenalin kicks and amongst the other versions I have, the Levine for the way he digs into the second half of the work and manages that balance of certainty and questioning that Beethoven stitched into the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 04:21:01 AM
Quote from: knight on April 06, 2007, 04:10:48 AM
At to recordings of the Missa....I am still looking for my holy grail.

Mike

Gardiner has a marvellous version with the Monteverdi Choir and English Baroque Soloists.  It's a more recent recording but is excellent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on April 06, 2007, 04:24:11 AM
Hey guys, stop teasing me! >:( I only have one recording (Solti) and don't have the assets right now to get 5-10 others. :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 04:27:47 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

1. Of course the obvious answers (Symphonies, Missa, Piano Sonatas, String Quartets) but one of the things I like about Beethoven is how he wrote so well for the horn.  No question, he influenced the development of the horn's role in the orchestra.  The trio in the Eroica, the outbursts in the 5th, the wild licks in the finale of the 7th, the great 4TH HORN solo in the 9th, and the very underrated Sonata for Horn and Piano Op. 17, which is a bear to play on a modern horn, let alone a natural one.

Beethoven was good to the horns.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 04:35:08 AM
Quote from: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 04:21:01 AM
Gardiner has a marvellous version with the Monteverdi Choir and English Baroque Soloists.  It's a more recent recording but is excellent.

I have it, but feel it underplays the emotional content somewhat...efficient is how I would characterise it.

QuoteHey guys, stop teasing me!  I only have one recording (Solti) and don't have the assets right now to get 5-10 others.

I don't have an official Solti recording, but I do have an off the air recording of his from a London Prom, I was in the choir, so it seems a special performance to me, but in truth the sound is pretty awful. It was televised and my tape needs to be transferred onto DVD, that gives more of a feel for the sheer energy Solti encouraged and the raw excitement that is part of the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on April 06, 2007, 04:47:11 AM
Lucia Popp, Yvonne Minton, Mallory Walker, Gwynne Howell, Chicago Symphony Chorus and Orchestra, Sir George Solti. That's what it says. I like it but it's on cassette :-[. I think it's time I bought it on CD... ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 04:50:30 AM
Cassette...there is a word one would not have thought to see on this new site! The female singers are excellent, Howell, sounds fine, but he always just stood there like a sack of potatoes and sang with a blank face. I should think it is better not being able to see him. The bass in the Solti I mentioned was Sotin....presence plus.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Symphonien on April 06, 2007, 05:11:41 AM
I've loved pretty much all Beethoven I've heard so far: the symphonies, piano sonatas, piano concerti and the violin concerto.

I listened to his symphonies so many times when I first got them... Although I don't listen to them as often anymore, I still never grow tired of listening to one of them now and again. The only ones I haven't quite warmed to as much as the others are the 2nd and 4th.

My favourite work would definitely have to be the Emperor Concerto.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 05:24:20 AM
Beethoven sucks.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on April 06, 2007, 05:31:00 AM
Quote from: George on April 06, 2007, 05:24:20 AM
Beethoven sucks.

Really? :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 05:33:07 AM
Quote from: Harry on April 06, 2007, 05:31:00 AM
Really? :o

Seemed like a nice first post at the time...perhaps I should reconsider?  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 05:46:43 AM
OK:

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

His symphonies probably. Many Romantic composers found it difficult to escape the "shadow of Beethoven." Some, like Brahms for instance, felt this influence rather deeply.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

The piano sonatas, symphonies and string quartets. I can't get more specific than that. Least favorite? I really haven't heard anything that I don't like by him.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Perhaps, I am sure that his upbringing also had this effect as well.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Symphonies: Szell, HvK '62, Barenboim

Piano Sonatas: Annie Fischer, Gulda (Amadeo), Gilels, Backhaus, Schnabel, Kovacevich, Kempff (m), Hungerford

Concertos: 1- Richter/Munch, 2-Pollini/Jochum, 3-Annie Fischer/Fricsay, Serkin/Bernstein, 4-Arrau/Haitink, 5-Serkin/Bernstein, Pollini/Boehm

Chamber: SQ- Vegh, Italiano

Overtures: Szell/Cleveland
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Novi on April 06, 2007, 05:53:06 AM
Quote from: George on April 06, 2007, 05:24:20 AM
Beethoven sucks.

Yeah, hear, hear ... and only those who have no idea with spaces in their names like G E O R G E or squiggles before like ~George have 24 or so sonata sets  :P.

Hello D minor, I'm a newbie too :).

My favourites: I vacillate between the late sonatas and the late quartets, particularly opp 111 and 132. Both are equally sublime, but I think maybe solo piano has the edge.

For orchestral, the Eroica has always been a favourite since before serious listening days even. But last year, I heard the Scottish Chamber Orchestra do a phenomenal 7th which knocked Kleiber from his pedestal (and they have girls in the SCO ;)).

 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 06:05:56 AM
Quote from: Novitiate on April 06, 2007, 05:53:06 AM
Yeah, hear, hear ... and only those who have no idea with spaces in their names like G E O R G E or squiggles before like ~George have 24 or so sonata sets  :P.

I don't know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: George on April 06, 2007, 05:46:43 AM
OK:

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

His symphonies probably. Many Romantic composers found it difficult to escape the "shadow of Beethoven." Some, like Brahms for instance, felt this influence rather deeply.

My vote would go to LvB's piano sonatas.  All post-Beethoven composers would be forced to confront Beethoven's unrivaled mastery of that genre . . . . . . and many post-LvB composers wisely left that genre alone, realizing that LvB was the alpha and omega of the piano sonata . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 11:15:04 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 11:01:22 AM
My vote would go to LvB's piano sonatas.  All post-Beethoven composers would be forced to confront Beethoven's unrivaled mastery of that genre . . . . . . and many post-LvB composers wisely left that genre alone, realizing that LvB was the alpha and omega of the piano sonata . . . . . . .  :D

You certainly aren't going to get any argument form me on that point.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 11:19:33 AM
Quote from: George on April 06, 2007, 05:46:43 AM
Concertos: 1- Richter/Munch, 2-Pollini/Jochum, 3-Annie Fischer/Fricsay, Serkin/Bernstein, 4-Arrau/Haitink, 5- Serkin/Beethoven, Pollini/Boehm

You have a recording with Serkin as soloist and Beethoven conducting?

Cool! 

:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 11:19:33 AM
You have a recording with Serkin as soloist and Beethoven conducting?

Cool! 

:D

LOL

It's with Bernstein. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on April 06, 2007, 11:50:22 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

Hi from another newbie. ;D

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
Beethoven was the greatest composer of the Classical era and the first Romantic composer! Who can beat that?
Most influentual works were - and I'm not very original here: his symphonies (the 3rd was a revolution and so was the 9th), his piano sonatas and his string quartets.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?
Impossible to give a limited answer: symphonies 3-5 and 7-9, middle and late piano sonatas, all string quartets, several piano trios, the violin sonatas, Missa solemnis, and yes: Fidelio! 8)

Least favorite?
Some juvenelia

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
I generally think the relevance of these kinds of things is overrated.
So: no - emotional contect stems from character and intelligence.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
D Minor! What a question - please think of the workload in replying! ;D
OK, some highlights (all of which are familiar favourites):

Symphonies: Jochum/RCO; Kletzki/CzPO, several Klemperer and Furtwängler recordings with the Furtw./9th with the Philharmonia from '54 as highlight.

Piano concertos: Kempff/Van Kempen; Solomon/Cluytens & Menges, Schnabel/Sargent

Piano sonatas: Kempff, Schnabel.

String quartets: Busch Quartet, Vegh Quartet.

Fidelio: Furtwängler live '53.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2007, 11:53:52 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

1. Late String Quartets + Missa Solemnis

2. Favorites: Late String Quartets + Missa Solemnis + Symphony 6 + Piano Concerto 4
Least favorite: Fidelio, Symphonies 1 & 2.

3. Not considerable. They may have some effect thou.

4. I am happy with my Naxos String Quartet discs and Ronald Brautigam's Piano Sonatas (vol 1) on BIS is an awesome SACD! 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don on April 06, 2007, 01:14:17 PM
Favorite Piano Sonata - Hammerklavier/Pollini).  For the other sonatas, I go with Brendel.

Cello Sonatas - Coin/Cohen/Harmonia Mundi.

Missa Solemnis - Klemperer/EMI.

I have much more Beethoven than I tend to listen to.  Guess he's not my soul mate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: facehugger on April 06, 2007, 02:39:28 PM
late quartets

seriously
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on April 06, 2007, 04:34:40 PM
If anyone'd like to try Beethoven's oratorio Christ on the Mount of Olives op. 85 (not recorded very often, I believe), I've posted a live webcast recording in the Broadcast Corner (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg505.html#msg505).

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 06, 2007, 06:02:49 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Symphony #3....just ask Haydn.

2.What are your favorite works by Beethoven?

Cello Sonatas-all
Middle String Quartets-all
Wind Chamber Music-all
Choral Fantasy (for Piano, Chorus, and Orchestra) Op. 80

Least favorite?

Wellington's Sieg/Victory Op. 91....I want to enjoy this, but it always seem to fall short within my "Beethoven standards".

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Absolutely.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Cello Sonatas: Casals/Horszowski et al.
String Quartets: Végh String Quartet
Wind Chamber Music: Consortium Classicum
Choral Fantasy Op. 80: Harnoncourt/Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Piano-Aimard)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 06:15:16 PM
Quote from: Bill on April 06, 2007, 06:02:49 PM
Least favorite?

Wellington's Sieg/Victory Op. 91....I want to enjoy this, but it always seem to fall short within my "Beethoven standards".

I agree, and its interesting to read about how popular that piece was at the time of its composition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Holden on April 07, 2007, 02:32:09 PM
When I started to learn the piano as a youngster I discovered Beethoven and fell in love with this man's music. My first classical recording was the ubiquitous Pathetique/Moonlight/Appassionata combination played by Kempff (mono) and bought for me by my parents as a Xmas present. I then joined World Record Club (lied about my age) and my second recording was the first two Op 2 sonatas coupled with the G minor Fanatsy - is this unique? Whether it is or not, it amply demonstrated my fascination with LvB's piano works. From there I moved on and had soon collected most of the major genres - piano sonatas, piano concertos, symphonies, overtures, - even the complete string quartets - though I hardly ever played them. These were all LPs and most came through the sadly departed World Record Club.

I had piano sonata recordings by Schnabel, Solomon, Gilels and Barenboim. I had the justifiably famous 4th concerto from Gilels/Ludwig. My symphony cycle was the Cluytens/BPO - not a bad place to start and I was still a teenager! I didn't get these because I was an aficionado but because it was what WRC offered. However, I believe that this helped me become more judgemental regarding the quality of recordings.

I still struggle with some of the string quartets and I've never found a recording of the Missa Solemnis that has really 'done it' for me despite my enjoyment of the sacred music of Verdi, Rossini, Cherubini, Mozart et al.

But even after 40 odd years of listening to and acquiring more and more classsical music Beethoven has always been and will always be my numero uno composer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 07, 2007, 02:39:10 PM

Great story, Holden.

Check your PM?  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on April 07, 2007, 02:48:18 PM
Quote
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.
Hello Noob
Quote1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
#rd symphony
Quote2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
&th symphony

late string quartets
Quote
3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
Duh.
Quote4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
Karajan 1963

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: marvinbrown on April 08, 2007, 04:14:51 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
    In my opinion Beethoven's greatest achievement is pushing music from the Classical era to the Romantic era.  He ushered in the Romantic Era.  Whether it is the symphonies or piano sonatas or piano concertos you can actually hear the transition from classical to romantic or early romatic .  In that regard he was revolutionary.  I also believe that he made orchestral music (nonvocal or music that is not based on literary text) significant.   

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

    Easily the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th symphonies, Piano Concerto No.5 (Emperor) any piano sonata with a name (ie Moonlight, Les adieux, Pathetique tempest etc.)  Least Favorite: perhaps Fidilio 

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
    No not really, you do not need to be deaf to be emotional...look at Wagner.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

     Yes: Symohonies cycle Karajan 1963, Piano Sonatas: Gulda

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:29:26 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

I think that Beethoven's greatest achievement was in forming a presenting a role model for composers after him on how to be a proper tortured soul, and to work towards composing things with their own standards of perfection in mind instead of someone else's (a patron, the Church, whatever).  His works with the longest-lasting influence have clearly been the symphonies from 3-9, although the Late Quartets ran at the back of the pack before making a last second dash with a furlong left to go, and were more influential later. That says a lot about them, I think.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Well, the 3rd & 9th symphonies in about a dead heat. I don't have a least favorite, I view each in context and am quite content with them the way they are. Beethoven knew what he was doing far better than I do.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Probably less than people tend to give them the weight for. I think the bigger issues of the day (Napoleon, politics in Vienna, the Fall of the Aristocracy &c) probably lent at least as much if not more. 

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Savall's 3rd, Gardiner's 9th, Arrau's 4th Concerto, Perlman/Giulini's Violin Concerto, Kempff's "Pathetique", L'Archibudelli's String Trios, Fischer-Dieskau's "An die ferne Geliebte"... dozens more. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 04:37:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:29:26 PM

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Savall's 3rd, Gardiner's 9th, Arrau's 4th Concerto, Perlman/Giulini's Violin Concerto, Kempff's "Pathetique", L'Archibudelli's String Trios, Fischer-Dieskau's "An die ferne Geliebte"... dozens more. :)

8)

I enjoyed reading your post, Gurn!  :)

Which Arrau 4th? I have the Haitink and love it! 

Also, which Kempff Pathetique? I prefer the Stereo myself, but like many others more. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:59:22 PM
Quote from: George on April 08, 2007, 04:37:32 PM
I enjoyed reading your post, Gurn!  :)

Which Arrau 4th? I have the Haitink and love it! 

Also, which Kempff Pathetique? I prefer the Stereo myself, but like many others more. 

Thanks, George.

It's the Staatskapelle Dresden / Colin Davis. I love the way Arrau hits it right from the start. He's a pretty fair pianist. :D

I have the stereo Kempff too, So yes, that one. Kempff is one of my favorite pianists, all in all. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 08, 2007, 05:04:48 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:59:22 PM
Thanks, George.

It's the Staatskapelle Dresden / Colin Davis. I love the way Arrau hits it right from the start. He's a pretty fair pianist. :D

I have the stereo Kempff too, So yes, that one. Kempff is one of my favorite pianists, all in all. :)

8)

You may recall this Gurn, and possibly yourself George, that about a year and half ago here at GMG Kempff was getting all sorts of "run" from many here, including myself.  However, of late, he has almost left the radar screen.  Good to see him back on as he is still my favorite when it comes to Beethoven's Sonatas. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 05:09:37 PM
Quote from: Bill on April 08, 2007, 05:04:48 PM
You may recall this Gurn, and possibly yourself George, that about a year and half ago here at GMG Kempff was getting all sorts of "run" from many here, including myself.  However, of late, he has almost left the radar screen.  Good to see him back on as he is still my favorite when it comes to Beethoven Sonatas. 

Yes, I do remember that Bill. But my philosophy is to like what I like and let others like what they like, so I didn't (and don't) particularly care about it. I think Kempff was among the top pianists of his generation, so I'm going to like him no matter what. :D 

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 08, 2007, 05:14:40 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 05:09:37 PM
Yes, I do remember that Bill. But my philosophy is to like what I like and let others like what they like, so I didn't (and don't) particularly care about it. I think Kempff was among the top pianists of his generation, so I'm going to like him no matter what. :D 

8)

Absolutely.  As David Ross once concluded with a post:

If you like him, what difference does it make whether 10% or 90% share your tastes?

Some people like muscle cars, some prefer luxury sedans, some like sports cars, and others just want economical transportation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 05:16:30 PM
Quote from: Bill on April 08, 2007, 05:14:40 PM
Absolutely.  As David Ross once concluded with a post:

If you like him, what difference does it make whether 10% or 90% share your tastes?

Some people like muscle cars, some prefer luxury sedans, some like sports cars, and others just want economical transportation.


A wise man, David Ross. And of course, I judge wisdom by the extent to which people share my opinions.... ;D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 05:43:35 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:59:22 PM
I have the stereo Kempff too, So yes, that one. Kempff is one of my favorite pianists, all in all. :)
8)

I particularly like his Schumann, though I find his Beethoven uneven, the high points are so high that its totally worth it.

Like the Pastoral Sonata and Op. 78-111. Superb!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 06:10:12 PM
Quote from: George on April 08, 2007, 05:43:35 PM
I particularly like his Schumann, though I find his Beethoven uneven, the high points are so high that its totally worth it.

Like the Pastoral Sonata and Op. 78-111. Superb!  :)

Yes, I really like his Schumann too. That 4 disk box is a really nice one, lots of good stuff on there!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 06:13:08 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 06:10:12 PM
Yes, I really like his Schumann too. That 4 disk box is a really nice one, lots of good stuff on there!  :)

8)

I bet its great, I actually only have Kriesleriana, Fantasy in C and Arabeske.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 09, 2007, 12:54:03 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:29:26 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

I think that Beethoven's greatest achievement was in forming a presenting a role model for composers after him on how to be a proper tortured soul, and to work towards composing things with their own standards of perfection in mind instead of someone else's (a patron, the Church, whatever).  His works with the longest-lasting influence have clearly been the symphonies from 3-9, although the Late Quartets ran at the back of the pack before making a last second dash with a furlong left to go, and were more influential later. That says a lot about them, I think.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Well, the 3rd & 9th symphonies in about a dead heat. I don't have a least favorite, I view each in context and am quite content with them the way they are. Beethoven knew what he was doing far better than I do.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Probably less than people tend to give them the weight for. I think the bigger issues of the day (Napoleon, politics in Vienna, the Fall of the Aristocracy &c) probably lent at least as much if not more. 

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Savall's 3rd, Gardiner's 9th, Arrau's 4th Concerto, Perlman/Giulini's Violin Concerto, Kempff's "Pathetique", L'Archibudelli's String Trios, Fischer-Dieskau's "An die ferne Geliebte"... dozens more. :)

8)

Gurn, this is a great and very perceptive post. Your #1 is really very important, I think, as is your #3. And I approve of the sentiment of your #2.

As for #4, the one single Beethoven set I spin more than any other is that old standby - the Busch Quartet in op 127, 130-3 and 135 (sorry to be unimaginative).I've recently got hold of their Rasumovskys 1 and 2, and I can see that one joining the bunch also, though the playing is a little less accurate, I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 09, 2007, 03:31:30 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:29:26 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

I think that Beethoven's greatest achievement was in forming a presenting a role model for composers after him on how to be a proper tortured soul, and to work towards composing things with their own standards of perfection in mind instead of someone else's (a patron, the Church, whatever). 

Late Mozart was also an independent-minded tortured soul . . . . . and may have served as a role model to Beethoven . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on April 09, 2007, 01:35:26 PM
I think one thing that often gets missed out in discussing Beethoven is just how witty a composer he was. Not knock-down laugh-out-loud, but those sudden sforzandi and unexpected hiatuses keep the listener deliciously off-balance.

As for his greatest compositional achievements, the late piano sonatas and quartets, of course. But I can't help but also include the transition between the last two movements in the 5th symphony...a passage that always reminds me of Busoni's dictum (I don't remember it literally, but it's something like "Any fool can write great melodies and dramatic climaxes, but true greatness comes in the transitions.")
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 09, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
For those interested in the latest information on HIP Beethoven recordings, visit this sizzling thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.0/topicseen.html)

(http://www.b12partners.net/mt/images/beethoven.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 03:56:02 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on April 09, 2007, 12:54:03 AM
Gurn, this is a great and very perceptive post. Your #1 is really very important, I think, as is your #3. And I approve of the sentiment of your #2.

As for #4, the one single Beethoven set I spin more than any other is that old standby - the Busch Quartet in op 127, 130-3 and 135 (sorry to be unimaginative).I've recently got hold of their Rasumovskys 1 and 2, and I can see that one joining the bunch also, though the playing is a little less accurate, I think.

Thanks, Luke. I was trying to look at the bigger picture than just whether people tried to emulate his composing style, of course they did. :)

Well, I have 2 complete sets of the SQ's (Tokyo and Medici) and just a whole lot of "Early" and "Middle" and "Late" and even several singles, and I just couldn't single out one performance or quartet that I preferred above all others. :D  Even though I dislike old-timey recordings (sorry), I do have some Brahms by the Busch 4tet, and it is excellent. They are hard to match among today's crop.

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 04:03:34 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 09, 2007, 03:31:30 AM
Late Mozart was also an independent-minded tortured soul . . . . . and may have served as a role model to Beethoven . . . . .

d minor,

But you are not discriminating between what we know now and what was believed about Mozart, even when he was still alive. He was, indeed, an independent-minded, tortured soul. But no one knew or believed that, not until the relatively late 20th century were many of the myths surrounding Mozart dispelled. Ones like "He was Divinely inspired, all he did was hold the pen and it was like automatic writing" and "he was a drunken, whoring playboy who was so gifted that it didn't stop him from writing beautiful music anyway", and lots of others too. And don't forget, he was a lightweight, rococo tunesmith too. ::) 

Beethoven was the archetype of the tortured artist, each note squeezed from the pen only after hours or days of frenzied thought, crossing out, tearing up &c &c &c. In its own way, this picture is just as wrong as Mozart's. But it was perfect for the Romantic sensibility all around him. Add Schubert to the mix, and this was indeed the Age of Tortured Artists... :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 04:23:13 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 04:03:34 PM
d minor,

But you are not discriminating between what we know now and what was believed about Mozart, even when he was still alive. He was, indeed, an independent-minded, tortured soul. But no one knew or believed that, not until the relatively late 20th century were many of the myths surrounding Mozart dispelled. Ones like "He was Divinely inspired, all he did was hold the pen and it was like automatic writing" and "he was a drunken, whoring playboy who was so gifted that it didn't stop him from writing beautiful music anyway", and lots of others too. And don't forget, he was a lightweight, rococo tunesmith too. ::) 

Beethoven was the archetype of the tortured artist, each note squeezed from the pen only after hours or days of frenzied thought, crossing out, tearing up &c &c &c. In its own way, this picture is just as wrong as Mozart's. But it was perfect for the Romantic sensibility hhall around him. Add Schubert to the mix, and this was indeed the Age of Tortured Artists... :)

8)

Did Beethoven have celiac disease?That's torture enough for anyone.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 09, 2007, 05:15:34 PM
Quote from: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 04:23:13 PM
Did Beethoven have celiac disease?That's torture enough for anyone.

Not sure, but I do know that he had "asshole for a father" disease. That one sucks! I've got it, I should know. No cure either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 04:23:13 PM
Did Beethoven have celiac disease?That's torture enough for anyone.

He certainly had some intestinal problem, and it was chronic. He complained about constant diarrhea for the later 2/3's of his life. I never heard a diagnosis, but celiac disease is as close a one as any. :(

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 05:53:29 PM
Perhaps it was peptic ulcers?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 06:06:58 PM
Quote from: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 05:53:29 PM
Perhaps it was peptic ulcers?

Any other symptoms support that?  More likely, it was too much wine. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 09, 2007, 08:19:02 PM
Quote from: edward on April 09, 2007, 01:35:26 PM
I think one thing that often gets missed out in discussing Beethoven is just how witty a composer he was. Not knock-down laugh-out-loud, but those sudden sforzandi and unexpected hiatuses keep the listener deliciously off-balance.

This is a great point.

On top of all that musical "heroism" there's the forgotten side of Beethoven: Beethoven the trickster. It may be tougher to track down than the grand gestures but once inside the music the wit becomes quite apparent. In fact, it's what draws me to Beethoven most.

So who needs "fate" in Beethoven? Not when there's all that wit!




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lady Chatterley on April 11, 2007, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 06:06:58 PM
Any other symptoms support that?  More likely, it was too much wine. ;)

8)

Yes I think so,he suffered tummy trouble often before he ate,H.Pylori loves an empty stomach.Too much wine is a disaster for folks with gastritis!Beethoven drank beer too but it was small beer.Everyone drank it,even children.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 09:53:55 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 05:16:30 PM
A wise man, David Ross. And of course, I judge wisdom by the extent to which people share my opinions.... ;D

8)

Agreed  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 10:48:32 AM
My favourite Beethoven work is the Grosse Fugue. It makes me think of a journey of a tortured soul: maybe like in the Divine Comedy: from the depths of the Inferno, up towards the glorious heights of Paradiso. The isn't too long either. It develops, says what it wants to say, and has done with it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 13, 2007, 12:49:19 PM
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 10:48:32 AM
My favourite Beethoven work is the Grosse Fugue. It makes me think of a journey of a tortured soul: maybe like in the Divine Comedy: from the depths of the Inferno, up towards the glorious heights of Paradiso. The isn't too long either. It develops, says what it wants to say, and has done with it.

Was listening to the Große Fuge just this morning . . . . . . My appreciation for it grows with each successive listen . . . . . .  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 12:53:44 PM
I know! It's the same with me. As fugues go, the only one that immediately pops into my head besides it is the Contrapunctus 14 from The Art of Fugue. Although, I'm sure there are many other great fugues.

D Minor, I suppose then that you have a great appreciation for the rest of Beethoven's quartets?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: bhodges on April 13, 2007, 12:54:48 PM
I agree: great piece.  One favorite version is on this CD by the Arditti Quartet, and I find it interesting that they include it with recordings of Xenakis, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Nancarrow and Roger Reynolds.  The late Beethoven quartets still sound incredibly modern.

--Bruce

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000321W.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 13, 2007, 01:00:10 PM
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 12:53:44 PM
D Minor, I suppose then that you have a great appreciation for the rest of Beethoven's quartets?

Yes, the Late SQs especially . . . . . . .

Quote from: bhodges on April 13, 2007, 12:54:48 PM
I find it interesting that they include it with recordings of Xenakis, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Nancarrow and Roger Reynolds.  The late Beethoven quartets still sound incredibly modern.

Very interesting :D  Yeah, possibly Beethoven's most "modern sounding" music . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 01:02:01 PM
Quote from: bhodges on April 13, 2007, 12:54:48 PM
I agree: great piece.  One favorite version is on this CD by the Arditti Quartet, and I find it interesting that they include it with recordings of Xenakis, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Nancarrow and Roger Reynolds.  The late Beethoven quartets still sound incredibly modern.

--Bruce

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000321W.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)


I was just thinking that today when I was listening to Op. 135. Of course, nowhere near as modern as Xenakis or Ligeti's chamber work but still very ahead of its time in many ways.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 11:32:16 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 04:03:34 PM
d minor,

But you are not discriminating between what we know now and what was believed about Mozart, even when he was still alive. He was, indeed, an independent-minded, tortured soul. But no one knew or believed that, not until the relatively late 20th century were many of the myths surrounding Mozart dispelled. Ones like "He was Divinely inspired, all he did was hold the pen and it was like automatic writing" and "he was a drunken, whoring playboy who was so gifted that it didn't stop him from writing beautiful music anyway", and lots of others too. And don't forget, he was a lightweight, rococo tunesmith too. ::) 

Beethoven was the archetype of the tortured artist, each note squeezed from the pen only after hours or days of frenzied thought, crossing out, tearing up &c &c &c. In its own way, this picture is just as wrong as Mozart's. But it was perfect for the Romantic sensibility all around him. Add Schubert to the mix, and this was indeed the Age of Tortured Artists... :)

8)

Gurn,  

How do you know what Beethoven's "perception" was regarding Mozart's struggles in life?  For example, Beethoven must have known that Mozart's brilliant operas were vastly under appreciated in Europe during Mozart's lifetime, and must have known (artist-to-artist) that Mozart felt deeply hurt and saddened by this lack of appreciation.   :'(  Mozart was tortured, and Beethoven (and other artists) may have empathised with that.

Beethoven probably knew that Mozart died in poverty, and could infer that Mozart suffered from serious financial and health issues during the final years of his life.

Of course, today, we now know that during Mozart's mature life, he struggled a great deal (e.g., in addition to his health & financial problems, we know that he tirelessly edited and reedited his compositions . . . . . etc).  Beethoven, Schubert, and others may have been aware of Mozart's struggles . . . . . . or maybe not (how can we know?) . . . . . .

And surely Mozart's independent-mindedness was very well known to LvB . . . . . . .  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 11:38:12 AM
Added to the opening post:

(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/bilder/en/portal/kollage_03_koepfe.jpg)

Beethoven Resources:

The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music  (http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven.html)

Beethoven Haus Bonn  (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php//portal_en)

LVBEETHOVEN.COM  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html)

Raptus Association for Music Appreciation site on Beethoven  (http://www.raptusassociation.org/)

Beethoven the Immortal  (http://www.lucare.com/immortal/)

The Beethoven Reference Site  (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/index.php)

One Stop Beethoven Resource  (http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/Your_OneStop_Beethoven_Resource.htm)

All About LvB  (http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony9.html)

Edit:

Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)


If any of you good GMG citizens are aware of other excellent links, please advise . . . . . .

Thanks,


--D Minor
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 18, 2007, 11:56:58 AM

An entire forum dedicated to the music of Beethoven:


Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)


(I am Annie Fischer there)


(Thanks to donwyn for tech support)  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 12:09:21 PM
Quote from: George on April 18, 2007, 11:56:58 AM
An entire forum dedicated to the music of Beethoven:


Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)


(I am Annie Fischer there)


(Thanks to donwyn for tech support)  :)

Thanks, Annie!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 18, 2007, 12:23:23 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 18, 2007, 12:09:21 PM
Thanks, Annie!  8)

:-*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on April 18, 2007, 02:48:15 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
          Greatest achievements... (not in any particular order)
          Piano Sonata No. 31 op 110
          Violin Concerto
          Piano Concerto No. 5
          The Appassionata Piano Sonata
          Symphony No. 9
          Symphony No. 7
          Symphony No. 5
          Symphony No. 3
          Quartet Op. 131
          Quartet Op. 127
          Ghost Trio
          Triple Concerto

           The Ninth would be the "most 'influential'"



2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
          All of the forementioned works
         
          I really don't have a least favorite work.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
          A question that requires a lengthy explaination; I would read Maynard Solomon's BEETHOVEN; Solomon does a good job, I think, of trying to analyze the psyche of Beethoven. A sometimes dull, but interesting read.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
         I will post more on this later, but right now I must go to my University's Orchestra rehearsal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2007, 04:23:55 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 18, 2007, 11:32:16 AM
Gurn,  

How do you know what Beethoven's "perception" was regarding Mozart's struggles in life?  For example, Beethoven must have known that Mozart's brilliant operas were vastly under appreciated in Europe during Mozart's lifetime, and must have known (artist-to-artist) that Mozart felt deeply hurt and saddened by this lack of appreciation.   :'(  Mozart was tortured, and Beethoven (and other artists) may have empathised with that.

Beethoven probably knew that Mozart died in poverty, and could infer that Mozart suffered from serious financial and health issues during the final years of his life.

Of course, today, we now know that during Mozart's mature life, he struggled a great deal (e.g., in addition to his health & financial problems, we know that he tirelessly edited and reedited his compositions . . . . . etc).  Beethoven, Schubert, and others may have been aware of Mozart's struggles . . . . . . or maybe not (how can we know?) . . . . . .

And surely Mozart's independent-mindedness was very well known to LvB . . . . . . .  :)

d minor,
Well, his perceptions were just what everyone else's were at the time. He didn't have any special knowledge beyond what may have come from conversing with Haydn. They were influenced primarily by the writings of the time (Niemetschek (sp) and Rochlitz), and by his own perceptions of the music. He thought the music was very special, but he also thought Mozart to be a very risque and less than moral man (his comments on Don Giovanni being totally unworthy of being an opera because of its immorality, for example). Specifically about the operas, he thought the music was far better than the operas themselves, so I don't know if he would have felt they were underperformed. Perhaps the opposite?

In any case, other than the perception that Mozart was impoverished, there was little if any conception that he was a suffering person. Not in the 19th century. And it has always generally believed (still is by some) that he was impoverished from spending huge sums on fripperies and gambling. Not that he was generally poor, simply that he was wasteful among plenty. He wasn't, actually, particularly wasteful OR poor. He was viewed as a poor businessman, not poor financially except by his own mismanagement.

And the truth about how hard he worked at composing didn't come out for nearly 150 years after his death, in good part because Constanze destroyed all his sketches and notes, and all that were left were fair copies. The myth was born that THEY were his original sketches, that he just sat and wrote them just as they were.

No, I think we CAN know that they didn't. There is no current publication from the time that gives the straight facts. The embellishments began with the first obituaries and continued unchecked. Constanze didn't even tell all the truth to Nissen (or he didn't publish it) in order to protect Mozart's legacy. In any case, the original concept that Mozart could have served as a role model in the same way that Beethoven did is not likely at all: at the very least, the few people who knew the truth weren't giving it up. And history bears out that he didn't serve as a role model in that way. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 06:55:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2007, 04:23:55 PM
d minor,

In any case, the original concept that Mozart could have served as a role model in the same way that Beethoven did is not likely at all: at the very least, the few people who knew the truth weren't giving it up. And history bears out that he didn't serve as a role model in that way. :)

Gurn,

Excellent reply . . . . . Thank you!

Perhaps "role model" is not the correct term, but Mozart certainly served as a shining example of a composer who remained largely independent (i.e., not tied to the church (Bach) or royalty (Esterhazy)) while supporting himself and his family primarily with income derived from hard-earned compositional efforts.  More importantly, in large part, Mozart composed for the sake of composing, not for pleasing a particular client.  His final three symphonies, for example, were not commissioned (apparently, Mozart composed them hoping for future performances, which never materialized during his lifetime).

Assuming that Beethoven had basic information about Mozart's life, Beethoven likely could empathize with Mozart's struggles as an independent, freethinking musical genius.  Moreso than he could empathize with Handel, Bach or Haydn.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 07:01:50 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2007, 04:23:55 PM
Not that he was generally poor, simply that he was wasteful among plenty. He wasn't, actually, particularly wasteful OR poor. He was viewed as a poor businessman, not poor financially except by his own mismanagement.

As to Mozart's financial condition, I agree that outwardly he appeared to be successful, although he was forced to move into smaller quarters towards the end, and his ill-health hindered his ability to support his family . . . . . . such that he was compelled to borrow money from Michael Puchberg . . . . . . .

Still, wasn't it common knowledge that Mozart was buried in a mass grave among paupers ?. . . . . .

But you are correct that the nature and extent of Mozart's struggles was unknown at the time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bunny on April 19, 2007, 01:17:46 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 18, 2007, 07:01:50 PM
As to Mozart's financial condition, I agree that outwardly he appeared to be successful, although he was forced to move into smaller quarters towards the end, and his ill-health hindered his ability to support his family . . . . . . such that he was compelled to borrow money from Michael Puchberg . . . . . . .

Still, wasn't it common knowledge that Mozart was buried in a mass grave among paupers ?. . . . . .


But you are correct that the nature and extent of Mozart's struggles was unknown at the time.



I think it is a myth that Mozart was impoverished at the time of his death.  He had the stature of a rock star in Vienna during his lifetime and commensurate earnings.  He could have easily generated more wealth had he survived longer.  If I had to describe his financial condition at the time of his death, I would say that he had a bit of a cash flow problem necessitating some retrenchment.  he certainly was far from bankrupt or "impoverished." In an age when the wealthy lived on credit (bills could go years unpaid -- only gambling debts demanded immediate payment), Mozart was relatively solvent. 

As for the pauper's grave, that was a misconception of later generations.  The arrangements for Mozart's funeral and burial were actually made by Baron von Swieten in accordance with the regulations in force (of the Emperor Joseph II) demanding a simple and hygienic burial (ie. speedy) and he chose the most economical burial available.  There was a simple ceremony in a side chapel of St. Stephen's Cathedral attended by von Swieten, Constanze, and her family.  Afterwards,  Mozart was interred in a cemetery in the village of St. Marx on the outskirts of Vienna.  Btw, the grave was described at the time not as a pauper's grave, but as a "normal simple grave." 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 19, 2007, 10:05:36 AM
Quote from: op.110 on April 18, 2007, 02:48:15 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
          Greatest achievements... (not in any particular order)
          Piano Sonata No. 31 op 110
          Violin Concerto
          Piano Concerto No. 5
          The Appassionata Piano Sonata
          Symphony No. 9
          Symphony No. 7
          Symphony No. 5
          Symphony No. 3
          Quartet Op. 131
          Quartet Op. 127
          Ghost Trio
          Triple Concerto

           The Ninth would be the "most 'influential'"

Great list (which closely coincides with my own)!   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 19, 2007, 10:07:09 AM
Quote from: op.110 on April 18, 2007, 02:48:15 PM
          Piano Sonata No. 31 op 110

Op. 110 is probably my 2nd fave; the Hammerklavier (esp. the final movement) remains my top spot, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 19, 2007, 10:16:41 AM
Quote from: op.110 on April 18, 2007, 02:48:15 PM
          Violin Concerto

Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!  Brahms soaked it up.  I'm considering this 1960 stereo re-release (Yehudi Menuhin's legendary 1953 recording with Wilhlem Furtwangler is another great one) . . . . .


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NW6FKW22L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: quintett op.57 on April 19, 2007, 02:31:50 PM
Quote
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements? 
No opinion

QuoteMost "influential" works?
Middle & late quartets.     

Quote2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
Last sonata - Kreutzer sonata - trio after Sy2 - 14th quartet
         I really don't have a least favorite work.

Quote3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
probably

Quote4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
love the Italiano and Juilliard. I still don't have many performers
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 20, 2007, 08:38:18 AM
Quote from: James on April 19, 2007, 01:47:17 PM
My all time fave Beethoven work hands down is the 4th Piano Concerto.

Do you have a favorite recording of the 4th Piano Concerto?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 20, 2007, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: James on April 20, 2007, 12:51:35 PM
Arrau/Haitink

I like your style, James. That one is also my very favorite.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on April 25, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 19, 2007, 10:16:41 AM
Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!  Brahms soaked it up.  I'm considering this 1960 stereo re-release (Yehudi Menuhin's legendary 1953 recording with Wilhlem Furtwangler is another great one) . . . . .


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NW6FKW22L._SS500_.jpg)

Haven't heard that recording, but Kyung Wha Chung's recording on Decca?? is one of my favorites.

I agree with the violin concerto being one of Beethoven's most influential works. Not only Brahms, but all other Violin Concertos have taken from Beethoven's one way or another.

My favorite Brahms VC recording is Oistrakh's, what about you, D minor?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 25, 2007, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: op.110 on April 25, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
Haven't heard that recording, but Kyung Wha Chung's recording on Decca?? is one of my favorites.

Chung has two - one on Decca (forget conductor) and a later one on EMI with Tennstedt leading the Concertgebouw.

Haven't heard the Decca but the EMI is a personal fave.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:18:42 PM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?
I think his music, and then followed closely by his hair style. >:D

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
His symphonies and string quartets are among my favorites, and my least favorites are his lieder.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
No, I think that it was the exactly sixty coffee beans that he used in his morning coffee was the most important contributing factor to the emotional content of his music, and also his absurd outbursts of rage. ;D

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas?
Blomstedt, Kempff.


5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?
It's just a label, certainly there are better things to do than argue about a label?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:19:51 PM
Quote from: knight on April 06, 2007, 03:41:38 AM
I see we have put the same piece as top, but possibly next I would have to have the first of the middle period string quartets. I have the Quartet Italiano unfurling that staggering melody that opens the first movement.

Mike

I love that melody! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 25, 2007, 07:23:43 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:18:42 PM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?
I think his music, and then followed closely by his hair style. >:D

So can we trace the influence of Beethoven's hair style on later generations? ;D




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:38:26 PM
Quote from: donwyn on April 25, 2007, 07:23:43 PM
So can we trace the influence of Beethoven's hair style on later generations? ;D

That was when Beethoven scholars finally realized that they need to transition to a more fast paced field of study. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 25, 2007, 08:56:00 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 07:18:42 PM



4.  Piano Sonatas?
Kempff.


Stereo of mono David, as I have forgotten your preference here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: val on April 26, 2007, 01:23:51 AM
QuoteD Minor

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Anserwing also as a newbie: greatest achievements: the 32 piano Sonatas, the Quartets from the opus 59/1 to the opus 135, Missa Solemnis. Most influential work: the Symphonies.

Quote2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Favorites: Piano Sonatas opus 2/3, 10/3, 13, 28, 31/2, 53, 90, 106, 109, 110, 111. Diabelli Variations. 3rd cello Sonata. Trio opus 97. String Quartets opus 59/1 and 2, 95, 127, 130, 131, 132. Symphonies 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9. 4th Piano Concerto and violin concerto. Overtures Coreolano and Egmont. Missa Solemnis. An die ferne Geliebte.

Least favorite: Wellington Victory, 5th piano concerto, Gellert Lieder, piano Sonata opus 54.

Quote3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

No.

Quote4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Piano Sonatas: opus 2/1 Arrau, 2/2 Brendel (VOX), 2/3 (Richter), 7 (Michelangeli), 10/1 Brendel, 10/2 Arrau, 10/3 Schnabel, 13 Serkin, 14/1 and 2 Schnabel, 22 (Arrau), 26 (Backhaus), 27/1 (Kempff), 27/2 (Serkin), 28 (Backhaus), 31/1 and 2 Gulda, 31/3 Kempff, 49/1 and 2 Gulda, 53 Arrau, 54 Backhaus, 57 Backhaus, 78 Kempff, 79 Gulda, 81A Serkin, 90 Solomon, 101 Arrau, 106 Gilels, 109 Serkin, 110 and 111 Gulda.
Diabelli Variations: Brendel.

Quartets opus 18 (Italiano Quartet), opus 59/1 and 3 (Lindsays), opus 59/2 Janacek, opus 74 (Italiano), opus 95 (Artemis), opus 127 (Italiano), opus 130 (Juilliard), opus 131 (Vegh or Italiano), opus 132 (Italiano) opus 135 (Busch).

Trio opus 97: Istomin, Stern, Rose.

Symphonies: 1, Toscanini, 2 Monteux, 3 Toscanini, 4 Walter, 5 Karajan, 6 Furtwängler, 7 Monteux, 8 Karajan, 9 Furtwängler.

Piano Conceros: 1 and 2, Serkin/Ormandy, 3 Arrau/Haitink, 4 Gilels/Ludwig, 5 Kempff/van Kempen

Violin Concerto: Grumiaux/van Beinum.

Overtures: Karajan BPO.

Missa Solemnis, Klemperer. The Missa opus 86 by Gardiner.

Lieder, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore.

Fidelio: Ludwig, Vickers, Klemperer.

Quote5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?

I consider Beethoven the greatest musician in History.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 26, 2007, 12:16:35 PM
Quote from: Bill on April 25, 2007, 08:56:00 PM
Stereo of mono David, as I have forgotten your preference here.

Mono is a bit better.  The piano sound is more natural and the playing more passionate. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 12:21:25 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 26, 2007, 12:16:35 PM
Mono is a bit better.  The piano sound is more natural and the playing more passionate. :)

Indeed it is Bogey Bill!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 26, 2007, 06:42:55 PM
Quote from: George on April 26, 2007, 12:21:25 PM
Indeed it is Bogey Bill!  :)

What the............................?  Oh.  So, the question is now for me spend toward finishing Schnabel on the Pearl label, or hit the Kempff mono set?  And do not say, "Both!" George, I get that enough from Harry! ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 07:04:12 PM
Quote from: Bill on April 26, 2007, 06:42:55 PM
What the............................?  Oh.  So, the question is now for me spend toward finishing Schnabel on the Pearl label, or hit the Kempff mono set?  And do not say, "Both!" George, I get that enough from Harry! ;D

No, I wouldn't do that to you buddy. My comparision of the stereo and mono in the late works has them split down the middle, so I really don't think you have anything to worry about. Then again, Kempff isn't one of my very favorites, so I am probably the wrong guy to speak with about this one.


Here's a quote from "The Recordings of Beethoven: as viewed by the critics from High Fidelity:"

"If pressed for a choice, I would urge aqusition of Kempff I [mono.] These older performances may have more ups and downs than the later readings, but the ups are higher and the engineering has more solidity and impact. Kempff II [stereo] has the advantage of stereophony, ready availability and a separate disc format."


Another from The Third Ear Guide to Classical:

"Most connisseurs opt for the earlier set, finding it fresher and more involving. It's indeed special, but so is the later set."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 04:46:24 AM
Quote from: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 12:53:44 PM
As fugues go, the only one that immediately pops into my head besides it is the Contrapunctus 14 from The Art of Fugue. Although, I'm sure there are many other great fugues.




I actually happen to like a performance of the Grosse Fuge that most don't: the Emersons! Plenty of energy...maybe a bit too much for alot of people. Love the Takacs and the Vegh as well (probably the Vegh best these days, George converted me).


I'm very weird, when I think fugue, for some reason the finale of the "Jupiter" springs up (even though I don't think it's at all a "proper fugue".)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 04:47:19 AM
Rest easy, Andy, nothing weird about that!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 04:53:24 AM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
Anything after 1801.         

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

          Op. 132. In my opinion, there's never been anything approaching the "Hymn of Gratitude".

That, and Mozart's "Jupiter", have for me never been eclipsed.
         
          Least favorite: The Wellington "thing".  And though many resent me for this, I STILL don't "get" the 3rd movement of the 9th Symphony.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?         Same as with practically any great artist.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 04:57:48 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 19, 2007, 10:16:41 AM
Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!  Brahms soaked it up.  I'm considering this 1960 stereo re-release (Yehudi Menuhin's legendary 1953 recording with Wilhlem Furtwangler is another great one) . . . . .


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NW6FKW22L._SS500_.jpg)





I love this recording!

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 05:01:43 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 19, 2007, 10:16:41 AM
Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!

Paging Gurn, white courtesy telephone, please!

OTOH, this is his Bistro.

Gurn, cancel that engagement for a second opinion  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 27, 2007, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: op.110 on April 25, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
Haven't heard that recording, but Kyung Wha Chung's recording on Decca?? is one of my favorites.

I agree with the violin concerto being one of Beethoven's most influential works. Not only Brahms, but all other Violin Concertos have taken from Beethoven's one way or another.

My favorite Brahms VC recording is Oistrakh's, what about you, D minor?

Chung's is easily among the best modern recordings.  In addition to Menuhin / Furtwangler (1953 mono), some stereo recordings for the Beethoven VC that come to mind as being first-rate:

Stern / Barenboim / NYPO (1975)
Stern / Bernstein / NYPO (stereo)
Oistrakh/Cluytens/ Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Francaise (1958 stereo)
Chung / Tennstedt / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (1992 stereo / EMI)
Perlman / Giulini (1980 stereo)
Heifetz / Munch / Boston SO (1955 stereo)
Szeryng / Haitink / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (1973 stereo)
Schneiderhan / Jochum / BPO (1962 stereo / DG)
Francescatti / Walter / Columbia Sym Orch (stereo)
Grumiaux / C. Davis / Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam (1974 stereo / Philips)
Hahn / Zinman / Baltimore Symphony Orchestra (1998 stereo / Sony)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 08:48:28 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musician; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave. Freedom, baby, freedom.


2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Favorites I'll catalog below. Least favorite? Not applicable. I even enjoy Wellington's Victory. I'm a student of the Napoleonic Wars and this music references a famous battle; it's just good, mindless, noisy fun.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

I've read all the prior answers. The forum seems to be split. I think of certain composers, Havergal Brian for example: knowing nothing about the man, you'd never guess his 32nd Symphony was written by a 96-year-old man. No hint of nostalgia, bitterness, regret, or approaching death. It's confident, even swaggering. Brian did not go gently into that good night. I have to conclude his personal circumstances had little affect on his music. On the other hand, Pettersson's cruel early life and his crippling disease clearly had a major influence on his music. Brahms' circumstances near the end of his life (all his closest friends gone; family gone; the feeling that he was alone) can be heard in his late music.

Considering Beethoven, yes, I think his music probably was influenced by his personal trials and tribulations. I mean, even Muss es sein can be traced to a petty money matter and the Heiliger Dankgesang was inspired by his renewed health after a serious illness.


4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Where to begin...even more troubling, where to end... ;D


Missa Solemnis - Klemperer/New Philharmonia

Symphony 1 - Klemperer/Phiharmonia

Symphony 2 - Szell/Cleveland

Symphony 3 - Bernstein/NY Phil

Symphony 4 - Kleiber/Bayerisches Staatsorchester

Symphony 5 - Szell/Concertgebouw

Symphóny 5 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 6 - Klemperer/Philharmonia

Symphony 7 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 8 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 8 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 9 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 9 - Dohnányi/Cleveland

Symphony 9 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Violin Concerto - Brüggen/Zehetmair/O 18th Century

Piano Concertos - Szell/Gilels/Cleveland

Piano Conertos 1 & 2 - Sinopoli/Argerich/Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Klemperer/Barenboim/New Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Masur/Grimaud/NY Phil

Piano Concerto 5 - Davis/Arrau/Dresden

Triple Concerto - Karajan/Richter/Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Berlin Phil

Fantasia C minor for Piano, Chorus and Orchetra - Salonen/Grimaud/Swedish Radio

Violin Sonatas - Mutter/Orkis

Cello Sonatas - Rostropovich/Richter

String Quintet C major Op.29 - Toyko SQ with Zukerman

String Quartets Op. 18 - Tokyo SQ

String Quartets Op.59/1, 2, 3 - Lindsay SQ

String Quartet Op.127 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.130 - Budapest SQ (1933/34)

String Quartet Op.130 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.131 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.132 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.135 - Emerson SQ

Grosse Fuge Op.133 - Hagen SQ

Piano Trio Op.97 "Archduke" - Ashkenazy, Perlman, Harrel

Piano Sonatas Op.2/1, 2, 3 - Gould

Piano Sonatas Op.10/1, 2, 3 - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.13 "Pathétique" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.27/2  "Moonlight" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.31/2 "Tempest" - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.53 "Waldstein" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata Deconstruction" - Gould  ;D

Piano Sonata Op.78 "À Thérèse" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.81a "Les Adieux" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.101 - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.106 "Hammerklavier" - Gould (no joke)

Piano Sonata Op.109 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.110 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.111 - Pollini

Für Elise - Ugorski


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 08:56:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 08:48:28 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musican; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave. Freedom, baby, freedom.

Isn't that the cruellest thing? He proved that it can be done, which makes it so much the more bitter for the many of us who are not so lucky.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 27, 2007, 09:56:04 AM

I stand sit in awe of your thoroughness, Sarge.

You earned this:

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:v7uQGGmqK6luoM:http://www.mindef.gov.sg/army/gen_images/efficien.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 10:04:01 AM
Quote from: George on April 27, 2007, 09:56:04 AM
I stand sit in awe of your thoroughness, Sarge.

You earned this:

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:v7uQGGmqK6luoM:http://www.mindef.gov.sg/army/gen_images/efficien.jpg)

Thank you, George...but why do I have the feeling I just wasted a day? ;D

No, seriously, I always appreciate an opportunity to think about music and which recordings I most enjoy. Of course I left out about 200 ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 10:07:06 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 08:56:34 AM
Isn't that the cruellest thing? He proved that it can be done, which makes it so much the more bitter for the many of us who are not so lucky.

I sympathize, Karl. We're not living in a time that's terribly receptive to, or grateful, for, your talents. I really wish it weren't so.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 10:08:22 AM
No matter, Sarge;  I make music, because that is what I am fit for, whatever the state of the world around me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 27, 2007, 11:03:39 AM
Hey Bill since you're on an old recording kick-- have you heard Schnabel perform any of Beethoven's sonatas?  I think he's pretty good, what do you think?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on April 27, 2007, 11:05:18 AM
Do you need to know about Beet's life and times to fully appreciate his music?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 11:09:46 AM
Quote from: Mozart on April 27, 2007, 11:05:18 AM
Do you need to know about Beet's life and times to fully appreciate his music?

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 27, 2007, 11:46:42 AM
Great post, Sarge!

(http://www.myqt.co.uk/media/goldstar.jpg)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 08:48:28 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musician; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave.  

Or a slave of the church . . . . . .

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 12:29:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 08:48:28 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musician; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave. Freedom, baby, freedom.


2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Favorites I'll catalog below. Least favorite? Not applicable. I even enjoy Wellington's Victory. I'm a student of the Napoleonic Wars and this music references a famous battle; it's just good, mindless, noisy fun.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

I've read all the prior answers. The forum seems to be split. I think of certain composers, Havergal Brian for example: knowing nothing about the man, you'd never guess his 32nd Symphony was written by a 96 year old man. No hint of nostalgia, bitterness, regret, or approaching death. It's confident, even swaggering. Brian did not go gently into that good night. I have to conclude his personal circumstances had little affect on his music. On the other hand, Pettersson's cruel early life and his crippling disease clearly had a major influence on his music. Brahms' circumstances near the end of his life (all his closest friends gone; family gone; the feeling that he was alone) can be heard in his late music.

Considering Beethoven, yes, I think his music probably was influenced by his personal trials and tribulations. I mean, even Muss es sein can be traced to a petty money matter and the Heiliger Dankgesang was inspired by his renewed health after a serious illness.


4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Where to begin...even more troubling, where to end... ;D


Missa Solemnis - Klemperer/New Philharmonia

Symphony 1 - Klemperer/Phiharmonia

Symphony 2 - Szell/Cleveland

Symphony 3 - Bernstein/NY Phil

Symphony 4 - Kleiber/Bayerisches Staatsorchester

Symphony 5 - Szell/Concertgebouw

Symphóny 5 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 6 - Klemperer/Philharmonia

Symphony 7 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 8 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 8 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 9 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 9 - Dohnányi/Cleveland

Symphony 9 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Violin Concerto - Brüggen/Zehetmair/O 18th Century

Piano Concertos - Szell/Gilels/Cleveland

Piano Conertos 1 & 2 - Sinopoli/Argerich/Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Klemperer/Barenboim/New Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Masur/Grimaud/NY Phil

Piano Concerto 5 - Davis/Arrau/Dresden

Triple Concerto - Karajan/Richter/Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Berlin Phil

Fantasia C minor for Piano, Chorus and Orchetra - Salonen/Grimaud/Swedish Radio

Violin Sonatas - Mutter/Orkis

Cello Sonatas - Rostropovich/Richter

String Quintet C major Op.29 - Toyko SQ with Zukerman

String Quartets Op. 18 - Tokyo SQ

String Quartets Op.59/1, 2, 3 - Lindsay SQ

String Quartet Op.127 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.130 - Budapest SQ (1933/34)

String Quartet Op.130 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.131 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.132 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.135 - Emerson SQ

Grosse Fuge Op.133 - Hagen SQ

Piano Trio Op.97 "Archduke" - Ashkenazy, Perlman, Harrel

Piano Sonatas Op.2/1, 2, 3 - Gould

Piano Sonatas Op.10/1, 2, 3 - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.13 "Pathétique" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.27/2  "Moonlight" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.31/2 "Tempest" - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.53 "Waldstein" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata Deconstruction" - Gould  ;D

Piano Sonata Op.78 "À Thérèse" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.81a "Les Adieux" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.101 - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.106 "Hammerklavier" - Gould (no joke)

Piano Sonata Op.109 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.110 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.111 - Pollini

Für Elise - Ugorski


Sarge





Posts like yours make coming on this forum worthwhile, Sarge!


String Quartets Op.59/1- Borodin SQ  59/2,3-Vegh

String Quartet Op.127 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.130 - Juillard (the classic recording)

String Quartet Op.131 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.132 - Borodin

String Quartet Op.135 - Takacs

Grosse Fuge Op.133 - I'm leaning toward the Takacs, but I greatly admire the Vegh and even the Emerson!

Missa Solemnis-Gardiner

"Kreutzer"-Ashenazy/Perlman

In regard to the rest, my jury is still out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 10:07:06 AM
I sympathize, Karl. We're not living in a time that's terribly receptive to, or grateful, for, your talents. I really wish it weren't so.

Sarge




Time will change things.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Mozart on April 27, 2007, 11:05:18 AM
Do you need to know about Beet's life and times to fully appreciate his music?

No...but sometimes it helps. I've told this story before: the Eroica eluded me for years. I just didn't get it. Then I saw a documentary about the symphony which explained the circumstances of its creation, the political situation then and details about Beethoven's life; it explained the revolutionary aspects of the Eroica. That did it; it gave me instant access to the music.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 02:24:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 01:41:49 PM
No...but sometimes it helps. I've told this story before: the Eroica eluded me for years. I just didn't get it. Then I saw a documentary about the symphony which explained the circumstances of its creation, the political situation then and details about Beethoven's life; it explained the revolutionary aspects of the Eroica. That did it; it gave me instant access to the music.

Sarge



I felt the same way about the Eroica. It was hearing Herbert Von Karajan's 1962 recording which completely converted me, now it's one of my favorite LvB pieces.

So, I take it you're referring to the "Eroica" movie, Sarge? The board seems to be roughly split as to its merits, and I personally am interested in it. So I would really appreciate any input you can give on it, as it just might be my future rental from Netflix...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 02:30:52 PM
Quote from: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 02:24:03 PM
So, I take it you're referring to the "Eroica" movie, Sarge?

No, not the movie, Andy. I saw an hour-long television documentary featuring Bernstein's performance with the NY Phil...excerpts, not the entire symphony. I can't recall the exact year but I believe it was in the late 60s.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 27, 2007, 06:32:39 PM
Quote from: DavidW on April 27, 2007, 11:03:39 AM
Hey Bill since you're on an old recording kick-- have you heard Schnabel perform any of Beethoven's sonatas?  I think he's pretty good, what do you think?

Absolutely love them....I still need a good handful of them.  I have 2 out of the 5 volumes.  I am in no rush, but eventually would like to complete the set as transferred by the Pearl label (George and Que are on board with this label as well).  What transfer have you heard my friend?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 05:33:19 AM
Quote from: Bill on April 27, 2007, 06:32:39 PM
Absolutely love them....I still need a good handful of them.  I have 2 out of the 5 volumes.  I am in no rush, but eventually would like to complete the set as transferred by the Pearl label (George and Que are on board with this label as well).  What transfer have you heard my friend?

I've heard the Naxos ones.  I've heard that Pearl is supposed to be the best, but that might be too pricy for me.  EMI is awful, I heard it and it was like really funky, piano doesn't sound right at all.  That's a high price to pay to get rid of hiss, I think the truth is that you can't completely eliminate hiss without making the piano sound funky.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 28, 2007, 05:39:16 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 05:33:19 AM
I've heard the Naxos ones.  I've heard that Pearl is supposed to be the best, but that might be too pricy for me.  EMI is awful, I heard it and it was like really funky, piano doesn't sound right at all.  That's a high price to pay to get rid of hiss, I think the truth is that you can't completely eliminate hiss without making the piano sound funky.

I think you are right.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 28, 2007, 05:39:50 AM
Quote from: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 05:33:19 AM
I've heard the Naxos ones.  I've heard that Pearl is supposed to be the best, but that might be too pricy for me.  EMI is awful, I heard it and it was like really funky, piano doesn't sound right at all.  That's a high price to pay to get rid of hiss, I think the truth is that you can't completely eliminate hiss without making the piano sound funky.

What Geroge said.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on April 28, 2007, 05:41:46 AM
Which transfers were used on the Regis issue? (That's the one I have, and I assume they didn't transfer it themselves.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 28, 2007, 05:43:55 AM
Quote from: edward on April 28, 2007, 05:41:46 AM
Which transfers were used on the Regis issue? (That's the one I have, and I assume they didn't transfer it themselves.)

Edward,
By chance (fingers crossed) do you have samples of both the Regis and the Pearl to compare the two?  That would be a most helpful comparison for myself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 28, 2007, 05:48:57 AM
Quote from: edward on April 28, 2007, 05:41:46 AM
Which transfers were used on the Regis issue? (That's the one I have, and I assume they didn't transfer it themselves.)

I think its Nuovo Era. (http://groups.google.com.vc/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/a8a5b5bfe3ab1346/db9ecdc83dfc8eed?lnk=gst&q=Regis+Schnabel+Beethoven+&rnum=2&hl=en#)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on April 28, 2007, 06:00:19 AM
Quote from: Bill on April 28, 2007, 05:43:55 AM
Edward,
By chance (fingers crossed) do you have samples of both the Regis and the Pearl to compare the two?  That would be a most helpful comparison for myself.
Sorry, I don't have the Pearl.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 05:23:53 AM


1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Beethoven managed to produce at least one masterpiece in every genre, pushing boundaries and becoming a paragon for his successors.I could single out Missa Solemnis as the most monumental of his creations and a particular favourite of mine.


2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Great favourites of mine are the Missa Solemnis (and the often maligned Mass in C), all the symphonies (especially nos.3, 5, 6, 9), piano concertos nos.4 & 5, violin concerto, many piano sonatas ("Waldstein", op.101, etc), choral fantasia, violin sonatas nos.5, 9 & 10, the cello sonatas, "Archduke" trio, overtures (especially "Die Weihe des Hauses")...and I don't really dislike anything.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

One can only guess and I won't.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?


Off the top of my head:
Symphonies: Abbado DVD cycle.
Piano Sonatas: Gilels & Gulda.
Concertos: Pollini, Gilels and a number of others.
Chamber: Argerich/Kremer (violin sonatas) and Argerich/Maisky (cello sonatas)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 30, 2007, 10:09:22 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 05:23:53 AM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Beethoven managed to produce at least one masterpiece in every genre, pushing boundaries and becoming a paragon for his successors.I could single out Missa Solemnis as the most monumental of his creations and a particular favourite of mine.

***
4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?


Off the top of my head:
Symphonies: Abbado DVD cycle.
Piano Sonatas: Gilels & Gulda.
Concertos: Pollini, Gilels and a number of others.
Chamber: Argerich/Kremer (violin sonatas) and Argerich/Maisky (cello sonatas)


Any favored recordings of Missa Solemnis?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 30, 2007, 10:11:11 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 05:23:53 AM
and I don't really dislike anything.

Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 11:42:23 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 30, 2007, 10:09:22 AM
Any favored recordings of Missa Solemnis?

For the time being, Levine and Karajan (the 1958 version on Testament). I'd like to hear Harnoncourt's version.

Quote from: D Minor on April 30, 2007, 10:11:11 AM
Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D

The first movement cadenza of Beethoven's piano transcription (piano & timpani!) is a delight, though. Kremer has used it (in a transcription for violin, piano & timpani) in his own recording with Harnoncourt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2007, 12:02:18 PM
QuoteBeethoven's Bistro

Would you like Für Elise with that?

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 30, 2007, 12:04:15 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 30, 2007, 10:11:11 AM
Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D

I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: D Minor on April 30, 2007, 10:11:11 AM
Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D

There's a remake of the VC as a CLARINET concerto that is actually quite good.  Couldn't imagine it as a piano concerto though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 30, 2007, 12:04:15 PM
I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.

I'm not a big fan of that one either, but ironically, it was a huge hit when first performed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 30, 2007, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 30, 2007, 12:04:15 PM
I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.
Quote from: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 01:05:51 PM
I'm not a big fan of that one either, but ironically, it was a huge hit when first performed.

Agreed.  Great title, and usually cool cover art on the cd....but that is where it ends for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 11:06:20 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 11:42:23 AM
The first movement cadenza of the piano transcription (piano & timpani!) is a delight, though. Kremer has used it (in a transcription for violin, piano & timpani) in his own recording with Harnoncourt.

Very interesting.  8)  A cadenza comprising a violin, piano, and timpani trio!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
Quote from: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 11:42:23 AM
The first movement cadenza of the piano transcription (piano & timpani!) is a delight, though. Kremer has used it (in a transcription for violin, piano & timpani) in his own recording with Harnoncourt.

Harnoncourt wouldn't go for the Schnittke cadenze, eh?  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 11:09:26 AM
Quote from: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 01:05:51 PM
I'm not a big fan of that one either, but ironically, it was a huge hit when first performed.

Yeah, it was an enormous crowd-pleaser back in 1813 (when it premiered alongside his Seventh Symphony).

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 11:14:08 AM
Quote from: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 01:04:33 PM
There's a remake of the VC as a CLARINET concerto that is actually quite good.  Couldn't imagine it as a piano concerto though.

Fascinating.  Here it is:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPRWHKVCL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Wanderer on May 01, 2007, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 11:06:20 AM
Very interesting.  8)  A cadenza comprising a violin, piano, and timpani trio!
A fascinating listen. The effect is similar in principle to Liszt's use of the triangle in his first piano concerto.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6604473.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8072599.jpg)


Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
Harnoncourt wouldn't go for the Schnittke cadenze, eh?  8)

Is there such a cadenza? Is it recorded?  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 12:47:52 PM
I'm not sure if it's been recorded (Kremer must surely have done that?) but a while back someone posted a performance with the Schnittke cadenza in the Broadcast Corner thread - maybe it's still up?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on May 01, 2007, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 01, 2007, 11:14:08 AM
Fascinating.  Here it is:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPRWHKVCL._SS500_.jpg)

Yep, that's the one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 06:41:12 AM
A lot of discussion about Kempff's Beethoven on the Listening Thread that was very interesting, so thought I would try to fire it up here so it will not get buried in the upcoming weeks.

Folks,
Out of all the cycles, and for that matter, incomplete cycles, what recordings of the sonatas would you say are the most "slow" or methodical, if the later is a better term?  And I am talking the speed where while you are listening you are physically trying to nudge the performer along without success.  Would the Kempff stereo works be one of these?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Todd on May 06, 2007, 06:51:32 AM
I'm not George, so I can't answer for him, but for me the pianist most in need of a nudge is Anton Kuerti in his 1970s cycle.  Kempff's stereo recordings are slow(-ish), but they work for what they are.  Ikuyo Nakamichi is also slow at times, and maybe a nudge couldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:11:43 AM
Quote from: Todd on May 06, 2007, 06:51:32 AM
I'm not George, so I can't answer for him, but for me the pianist most in need of a nudge is Anton Kuerti in his 1970s cycle.  Kempff's stereo recordings are slow(-ish), but they work for what they are.  Ikuyo Nakamichi is also slow at times, and maybe a nudge couldn't hurt.

Thank you for that Todd.  Changed my original post to an open invitation to all those that want to field it....no discourtesy intended here and my apologies folks.

As to your post Todd, I find it very reassuring as to your take on the Kempff cycle.  I tend to enjoy my non-orchestral Beethoven on the slow side (guess that is why I enjoy the Vegh SQ's as much as I do).  Maybe that is why I have found my Kempff stereo cycle so enjoyable and was wondering why I just do not line up with many of the other performers I have heard.  I am going to begin to explore the other two that you listed as well, Ikuyo Nakamichi and Anton Kuerti, for I might really enjoy these performances.  Thanks here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 07:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 06:41:12 AM
Folks,
Out of all the cycles, and for that matter, incomplete cycles, what recordings of the sonatas would you say are the most "slow" or methodical, if the later is a better term?  And I am talking the speed where while you are listening you are physically trying to nudge the performer along without success.  Would the Kempff stereo works be one of these?

When I think slow or methodical, Barenboim, Arrau, Gould and Gilels spring to mind. Richter can also fit this description in some works, namely the late ones. At first impression I absolutely wanted to nudge them along without success. Over time, though, I find that when I am in the right mood, these interpretations are a delight to listen to. Late evening is one such time. Things are revealed that are glossed over in the faster interpretations.

No, Kempff is not one of these. I hear his tempos as being fairly middle of the road, at times even faster than the norm, as in some slow movements. His Beethoven is a scaled down Beethoven, with dynamics that probably resemble that of the HIP versions more than any other modern pianist that I can think of. I suspest this is why Que enjoys his LvB. Kempff's is a mature Beethoven that impresses with tone and finesse rather than power and speed. I once told Bruce that listening to Kempff is like listening to your grandfather play Beethoven. I would say the same of Arrau.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:33:15 AM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 07:28:20 AM
Kempff's is a mature Beethoven that impresses with tone and finesse rather than power and speed. I once told Bruce that listening to Kempff is like listening to your grandfather play Beethoven. I would say the same of Arrau.

Great lines....this discription I believe still lines up with my taste here.  Maybe an Arrau sampling is in order as well.  Thanks George.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 07:38:37 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:33:15 AM
Great lines....this discription I believe still lines up with my taste here.  Maybe an Arrau sampling is in order as well.  Thanks George.

I haven't heard the full Arrau set, but I (and donwyn and Wanderer) strongly suggest trying out Gilels, especially in the new economical box on DG. His is the most consistent cycle that I have heard. If you like his style, I think you'll be very pleased with the entire set.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1)

You can listen to it here (earlier incarnation):
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:53:40 AM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 07:38:37 AM
I haven't heard the full Arrau set, but I (and donwyn and Wanderer) strongly suggest trying out Gilels, especially in the new economical box on DG. His is the most consistent cycle that I have heard. If you like his style, I think you'll be very pleased with the entire set.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1)

You can listen to it here (earlier incarnation):
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2)

Thanks for the links....most helpful.  The Gilels "sound" is a bit too "tinny"/metallic for me....not soft enough if you will.  It lacks the warmth that I enjoy with Kempff.  Just a matter of my taste and my perception here and no slight at what you and others enjoy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 07:55:56 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:53:40 AM
Thanks for the links....most helpful.  The Gilels "sound" is a bit too "tinny"/metallic for me....not soft enough if you will.  It lacks the warmth that I enjoy with Kempff.  Just a matter of my taste and my perception here and no slight at what you and others enjoy.

Of course not. Arrau may be the one then, his sound is analog and indeed warmer. It comes with excellent performances of the concertos as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:01:45 AM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 07:55:56 AM
Of course not. Arrau may be the one then, his sound is analog and indeed warmer. It comes with excellent performances of the concertos as well.

And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:18:23 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:01:45 AM
And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

After all, I would never want to leave out my exploration of Serkin's efforts here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 08:19:54 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:01:45 AM
And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

Indeed, if you feel satisfied with Kempff, there's really no need to get more. Arrau does have a very different take that is highly regarded, so he's certainly worth trying out from the library or a cheap used copy.

What kind of surprises me is that your fave (I think) in the symphonies is HvK '62. Somehow this doesn't match up with Kempff in the sonatas.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 08:20:43 AM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:18:23 AM
After all, I would never want to leave out my exploration of Serkin's efforts here.

Certainly not .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:21:33 AM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 08:19:54 AM
Indeed, if you feel satisfied with Kempff, there's really no need to get more. Arrau does have a very different take that is highly regarded, so he's certainly worth trying out from the library or a cheap used copy.

What kind of surprises me is that your fave (I think) in the symphonies is HvK '62. Somehow this doesn't match up with Kempff in the sonatas.  :-\

I call it "range", my friend. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 02:27:19 PM
Quote from: George on May 06, 2007, 07:28:20 AM

I suspect this is why Que enjoys his LvB.

And Gurn.  :)

Still my favorite on modern instrument...

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on May 06, 2007, 03:18:42 PM
The Diabelli Variations could probably deserve their own thread, but we have so many this and that threads already, I'll bring it here; actually very fitting for a Bistro, an enjoyable establishment to savour a selection of various small dishes.

This afternoon I watched the Bruno Monsaingeon film of Piotr Anderszewski playing this Beethoven masterpiece and one of the first items this young and very charismatic pianist informed me of, is those pieces are not real variations, they are Veränderungen, giving me the original German name in the title. There is a difference between variations and Veränderungen!

Monsaingeon is a master film maker - His Sokolov live in Paris my favorite! - and this DVD shows the extreme care and effort he takes in creating a work for us to not only enjoy, but also to learn from. Anderszewski enthusiastically points out various sections highlighting Beethoven's genius. The camera work is excellent; keys and fingers in extreme closeup, and of course the pianists emotional involvement. No bright lights, no sensational effects, simply a film of a pianist, his piano and Beethoven. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 06, 2007, 03:18:42 PM
The Diabelli Variations could probably deserve their own thread, but we have so many this and that threads already, I'll bring it here; actually very fitting for a Bistro, an enjoyable establishment to savour a selection of various small dishes.

This afternoon I watched the Bruno Monsaingeon film of Piotr Anderszewski playing this Beethoven masterpiece and one of the first items this young and very charismatic pianist informed me of, is those pieces are not real variations, they are Veränderungen, giving me the original German name in the title. There is a difference between variations and Veränderungen!

Monsaingeon is a master film maker - His Sokolov live in Paris my favorite! - and this DVD shows the extreme care and effort he takes in creating a work for us to not only enjoy, but also to learn from. Anderszewski enthusiastically points out various sections highlighting Beethoven's genius. The camera work is excellent; keys and fingers in extreme closeup, and of course the pianists emotional involvement. No bright lights, no sensational effects, simply a film of a pianist, his piano and Beethoven. 

Uffe,
I am ready to accept that as a concept. But I would really like to know what the word means, precisely. (I'm sure there is no exact translation, but a sense of the difference would be good). Then we can think about what the differences are and how they are illustrated in the music. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on May 06, 2007, 04:17:03 PM
To give you a short explanation - supper is waiting! - : potatoes, meat and vegetables are variations of different food items. Mashed potatoes, fried potatoes, boiled potatoes are spuds in different forms: Verändert.

Beethoven took the Diabelli Walzer and 'veränderte', it's the same waltz - same potatoes! - variations would be if had used gavottes, mazurkas or polkas, all musical compositions, for his work. Clear?  ???

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 05:44:07 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on May 06, 2007, 04:17:03 PM
To give you a short explanation - supper is waiting! - : potatoes, meat and vegetables are variations of different food items. Mashed potatoes, fried potatoes, boiled potatoes are spuds in different forms: Verändert.

Beethoven took the Diabelli Walzer and 'veränderte', it's the same waltz - same potatoes! - variations would be if had used gavottes, mazurkas or polkas, all musical compositions, for his work. Clear?  ???



Crystal clear. Danke!

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 05:46:11 PM
Quote from: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 08:21:33 AM
I call it "range", my friend. ;)

That's precisely my point. If you have range across genres, then I figure that you must have range within each genre. Therefore, no one pianist is going to "be the one for you" leaving room for many types of interpretations. That's why I have well, lets just say "many" different interpretations, for I have range as well. In fact, if I had to choose between my favorite set (A. Fischer) and the rest, I would take the rest because I feel that I don't really see those works clearly without looking at them through a number of pianist's eyes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on May 07, 2007, 02:45:37 AM
Thanks, Uffe, for recommending the DVD. I have Anderszewski's Diabellis on CD and it's one of my favorite piano CDs of all time (though I don't have an extremely large collection 0:)). So I'll probably want the DVD as well. Will have to buy that. (Or were you going to bin yours after watching, maybe? 0:))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 07, 2007, 03:14:29 AM
Quote from: MrOsa on May 07, 2007, 02:45:37 AM
Thanks, Uffe, for recommending the DVD. I have Anderszewski's Diabellis on CD and it's one of my favorite piano CDs of all time (though I don't have an extremely large collection 0:)). So I'll probably want the DVD as well. Will have to buy that. (Or were you going to bin yours after watching, maybe? 0:))

Yes, that DVD looks like a winner! I'd like to learn more about the Diabelli Variations Veränderungen . . . . And about mashed potatoes . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: val on May 07, 2007, 04:06:26 AM
QuoteGeorge l

That's precisely my point. If you have range across genres, then I figure that you must have range within each genre. Therefore, no one pianist is going to "be the one for you" leaving room for many types of interpretations. That's why I have well, lets just say "many" different interpretations, for I have range as well. In fact, if I had to choose between my favorite set (A. Fischer) and the rest, I would take the rest because I feel that I don't really see those works clearly without looking at them through a number of pianist's eyes.

I agree with that. The Sonatas are very different and require different qualities. Even Sonatas composed in the same period. Sometimes even in the same Sonata. Solomon, for example, is extraordinary in the first movement of the opus 111 but has not the rhythmic imagination in the Arietta (Gulda !!!!). Another good example would be Brendel in the opus 28: the first movement is perfect, but in the Andante he takes a tempo too fast and cannot prepare the abrupt explosion in the coda.

But there are, at least to me, some exceptions: the ideal version of the opus 10/3 by Schnabel, of the opus 27/1 by Kempff (1951), the opus 57 by Backhaus, the opus 90 by Solomon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 07, 2007, 04:09:30 AM
Quote from: val on May 07, 2007, 04:06:26 AM
But there are, at least to me, some exceptions: the ideal version of the opus 10/3 by Schnabel,

Yes, absolutely! This is his one of his very greatest LvB sonatas, along with Op. 2, No's 1 and 2.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on May 07, 2007, 06:21:25 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 05:44:07 PM
Crystal clear. Danke!

8)

D Minor: Having supper sitting at my table, made using mashed potatoes as a metaphor for the Diabelli Veränderungen only logical! It worked!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 08, 2007, 02:45:52 PM
For those interested, an entire book has been written about the Diabelli Variations (file this under the "I HAD NO IDEA" folder):

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513K0KPMR5L._SS500_.jpg)

"William Kinderman is a very rare bird. His book on Beethoven's Diabelli Variations must be one of the best monographs a musical masterpiece has ever received" - Alfred Brendel


Says William Kinderman:  "[The Diabelli Variations] represent Beethoven's most extraordinary single achievement in the art of variation writing, and their originality and power of invention stand beside other late masterpieces such as the Ninth Symphony, Missa Solemnis, and the last String Quartets."1   In publishing the Diabelli Variations, Anton Diabelli introduced them with the following statement: "We present here to the world variations of no ordinary type, but a great and important masterpiece worthy to be ranked with the imperishable creations of the old classics . . . . All these variations, through the novelty of their ideas, care in working out, and beauty in the most artful of their transitions, will entitle the work to a place beside Johann Sebastian Bach's famous masterpiece in the same form."

1 William Kinderman,The Evolution and Structure of Beethoven's "Diabelli" Variations,  Journal of the American Musicological Society, Vol. 35, No. 2 (Summer, 1982).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:24:42 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 30, 2007, 12:04:15 PM
I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.





You're not. But I sympathise with Lv's need for accessibility at the time. Gotta make money sometime, right?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:25:50 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
Harnoncourt wouldn't go for the Schnittke cadenze, eh?  8)



;D 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 05:25:53 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:24:42 AM
You're not. But I sympathise with Lv's need for accessibility at the time. Gotta make money sometime, right?

Yes, but its also important to save some time for your friends, no?  ;)

Welcome home!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:27:25 AM
Quote from: George on May 09, 2007, 05:25:53 AM
Yes, but its also important to save some time for your friends, no?  ;)

Welcome home!  :)



Thanks, George!


Have you posted your feelings in regard to the Gould LvB yet?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 05:32:12 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:27:25 AM


Thanks, George!


Have you posted your feelings in regard to the Gould LvB yet?

Only on sonata #1 (in the listening thread.) I still have my complete Goode and Brendel Vox sets to crack open.   :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:39:09 AM
Quote from: George on May 09, 2007, 05:32:12 AM
Only on sonata #1 (in the listening thread.) I still have my complete Goode and Brendel Vox sets to crack open.   :-\




Sounds you're going to be happy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 05:49:08 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:39:09 AM
Sounds you're going to be happy!

Yes, I was going to do a side by side comparison of each sonata, but the last time I tried that (with Kempff, Backhaus and Schnabel) I actually got sick of the music for awhile.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:57:41 AM
Quote from: George on May 09, 2007, 05:49:08 AM
Yes, I was going to do a side by side comparison of each sonata, but the last time I tried that (with Kempff, Backhaus and Schnabel) I actually got sick of the music for awhile.   




:o


YOU????!!! :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 06:30:12 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 05:57:41 AM



:o


YOU????!!! :D


Its true.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 09:01:24 AM
A 1954 recording by Serkin of the Diabelli & Op. 109 (Piano Sonata no. 30) was released on May 8, 2007.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/983097.jpg)

Release Date: 05/08/2007
Label:  Music & Arts Programs Of America Catalog #: 1200   Spars Code: ADD 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven  0:)
Performer:  Rudolf Serkin  0:)
Recorded in: Mono  :'(
Length: 1 Hours 16 Mins.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 09:02:07 AM
Also releasing on May 8, 2007:   Richter The Master Volume 1 – Beethoven

Piano Sonatas 19,20
Piano Sonatas 22,23 ("Appassionata")
Piano Sonatas 30, 31, 32

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/982231.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 09:05:47 AM
And no person should be without Bedroom Bliss with Beethoven,to be released by RCA May, 15  2007.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b84weNwLL._SS500_.jpg)

Featuring Sviatoslav Richter, Vladimir Horowitz, et al.
And these orchestras: Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by André Previn, Fritz Reiner, Marek Janowski.

Place your order today . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 09:37:12 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 09, 2007, 09:01:24 AM
A 1954 recording by Serkin of the Diabelli & Op. 109 (Piano Sonata no. 30) was released on May 8, 2007.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/983097.jpg)

Release Date: 05/08/2007
Label:  Music & Arts Programs Of America Catalog #: 1200   Spars Code: ADD 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven  0:)
Performer:  Rudolf Serkin  0:)
Recorded in: Mono  :'(
Length: 1 Hours 16 Mins.


FWIW, I believe that that Diabelli is available on SONY. I recommend getting their transfer, as they have access to the original tapes. The 109 was also released on SONY, coupled with superb versions of 3 other sonatas. Music and Arts hasn't impressed me as of late with their transfers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 09:39:58 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 09, 2007, 09:02:07 AM
Also releasing on May 8, 2007:   Richter The Master Volume 1 – Beethoven

Piano Sonatas 19,20
Piano Sonatas 22,23 ("Appassionata")
Piano Sonatas 30, 31, 32

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/982231.jpg)


Discussion is underway... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,800.0.html)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on May 09, 2007, 09:53:46 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 09, 2007, 09:05:47 AM
And no person should be without Bedroom Bliss with Beethoven,to be released by RCA May, 15  2007.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b84weNwLL._SS500_.jpg)

Featuring Sviatoslav Richter, Vladimir Horowitz, et al.
And these orchestras: Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by André Previn, Fritz Reiner, Marek Janowski.

Place your order today . . . . . . .


Thinking about Beethoven in bed just might slow you down you eager beaver!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 09:59:11 AM
Quote from: Mozart on May 09, 2007, 09:53:46 AM
Thinking about Beethoven in bed just might slow you down you eager beaver!

Classic MM!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 10:03:29 AM
Quote from: George on May 09, 2007, 09:37:12 AM
FWIW, I believe that that Diabelli is available on SONY. I recommend getting their transfer, as they have access to the original tapes. The 109 was also released on SONY, coupled with superb versions of 3 other sonatas. Music and Arts hasn't impressed me as of late with their transfers.

Thanks for that excellent input, George . . . . . . . You've earned your consulting fee . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 10:04:06 AM
Quote from: George on May 09, 2007, 09:39:58 AM
Discussion is underway... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,800.0.html)



Nice to see that you're on top of this . . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 10:05:16 AM
Quote from: Mozart on May 09, 2007, 09:53:46 AM
Thinking about Beethoven in bed just might slow you down you eager beaver!

Mozart, you might be interested in the companion disk, Making Out to Mozart . . . . . . .

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NIHLm0K1L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on May 09, 2007, 10:08:25 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 09, 2007, 10:05:16 AM
Mozart, you might be interested in the companion disk, Making Out to Mozart . . . . . . .

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NIHLm0K1L._SS500_.jpg)

Its the Mozart effect, its proven to make hot naked girls on the beach unbeleivably attracted to you. Its science.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2007, 10:11:20 AM
Worthy companion volumes to Drooling to Dittersdorf, Pawing to Pachelbel, and Hanky-Panky by Handel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on May 09, 2007, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 09, 2007, 09:05:47 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b84weNwLL._SS500_.jpg)

What exactly is the woman with long hair doing to the woman with short hair?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Steve on May 09, 2007, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: MrOsa on May 09, 2007, 10:55:50 AM
What exactly is the woman with long hair doing to the woman with short hair?

And they say that classical musicans can't enjoy themselves.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 03:29:14 AM
Helios (the GMG member) opines that Schnabel's recording of LvB PC #4 "is unmatchable."  Has anyone else heard this recording?

(http://images.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/428/Schnabel_plays_Beethoven_Piano_Concertos__6166428.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 03:33:38 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 10, 2007, 03:29:14 AM
Helios (the GMG member) opines that Schnabel's recording of LvB PC #4 "is unmatchable."  Has anyone else heard this recording?

(http://images.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/428/Schnabel_plays_Beethoven_Piano_Concertos__6166428.jpg)



I listened to it yesterday, but I only had one ear on it.  :-\

You can get it through Naxos for less money, coupled with the 3rd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 03:41:13 AM
Val (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,809.msg17700.html#msg17700) opines that Gulda's reading of LvB's piano sonatas (complete) represents the pinnacle . . . . . . 

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/42111.jpg)

And this REVIEW (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9625)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 03:50:55 AM
I should have read Michel's OP.

Quote from: Michel on May 09, 2007, 09:41:34 AM
Just for a bit of fun - what CD from your collection should be an absolute no brainer for someone building a collection? It must be an absolute personal gem, and one you would be willing to give to someone if they could only hear one piece of music in their entire life.

Instead, I only went by the title of the thread. I am now going to remove my posts and rethink the question.

Gulda is sure an inexpensive, no-brainer, solid set, but something that I'd give to someone if they could only hear one piece of music there entire life? I am not so sure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 04:03:32 AM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 03:50:55 AM
I should have read Michel's OP.

Instead, I only went by the title of the thread. I am now going to remove my posts and rethink the question.

Gulda is sure an inexpensive, no-brainer, solid set, but something that I'd give to someone if they could only hear one piece of music there entire life? I am not so sure.

Yes, another case where the thread title can misrepresent the real thrust of the thread . . . . . .

(George, I've modified my post consistent with your modification on Michel's thread  ::))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 04:09:21 AM
. . . . . .a couple of "classics" released two weeks ago . . . . .

Beethoven Violin Sonatas, No 5 "spring", 7, 9 "kreutzer" & 10 / Y. Menuhin, J. Menuhin

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/980404.jpg)

On DVD, Beethoven: Violin Concerto / Milstein, Boult (includes RVW's d minor symphony)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31NvsRKMvoL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 04:28:15 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 09, 2007, 10:11:20 AM
Worthy companion volumes to Drooling to Dittersdorf, Pawing to Pachelbel, and Hanky-Panky by Handel.




Schtupping to Shostakovich!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 05:10:50 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 10, 2007, 04:03:32 AM
Yes, another case where the thread title can misrepresent the real thrust of the thread . . . . . .

That explains why my grilled cheese has yet to arrive.  ::)

Quote
(George, I've modified my post consistent with your modification on Michel's thread  ::))


Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 05:12:12 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 04:28:15 AM



Schtupping to Shostakovich!

I had a great one for Hummel, but this is a family forum.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 05:29:26 AM
Quote from: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 04:28:15 AM
Schtupping to Shostakovich!

Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 05:12:12 AM
I had a great one for Hummel, but this is a family forum.  ::)

In that same vein, I think I'll pass on revealing the CD title for Engelbert Humperdinck . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 05:31:24 AM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 05:10:50 AM
That explains why my grilled cheese has yet to arrive.  ::)

The Beethoven BistroTM is still working on it's online food/beverage menu and delivery system . . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 05:45:42 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 10, 2007, 05:29:26 AM
In that same vein, I think I'll pass on revealing the CD title for Engelbert Humperdinck . . . . . .  :D

;D

Quote from: D Minor on May 10, 2007, 05:31:24 AM
The Beethoven BistroTM is still working on it's online food/beverage menu and delivery system . . . . . .

When Bogey owned this establishment (Beethoven's Bar and Grill) the service was top-notch.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 07:06:20 AM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 05:45:42 AM
;D

When Bogey owned this establishment (Beethoven's Bar and Grill) the service was top-notch.  ::)




DRAT the new! (Sorry, I still suffer from that embarrassing compulsion to simply write "DRAT!" out of nowhere).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 10, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
Quote from: George on May 10, 2007, 05:45:42 AM
;D

When Bogey owned this establishment (Beethoven's Bar and Grill) the service was top-notch.  ::)

Here is a shot of the ol' place....

(http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/forwood/images/cubapho9.jpg)


Closed her down as soon as I opened Rick's Cafe Americain ;):

(http://nineofhearts.tripod.com/17/ricks.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 11, 2007, 04:56:23 AM
Bogey, I had forgotton about the Bar & Grill . . . . . . it had been inactive for over six months . . . . . .

But in fairness, I've contacted my lawyers with the goal of transfering a 49% ownership interest in the Bistro to you (or your designee).  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 11, 2007, 05:01:22 AM
LvB's cello sonatas had been off my radar screen until Val touted their beauty – especially the slow movements.  Accordingly, I purchased this DVD, which seems to be a no-brainer. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZNQXB1HCL._SS500_.jpg)

Here's one short-'n-sweet review: Despite his enormous discography, there's not a very rich visual record of Richter. He and Rostropovich excelled in concert performance, and these DVDs convey their intensity playing some of the best music ever written for the cello. Richter once said in an interview that Beethoven is a matter of life and death, and that feeling comes through quite clearly here. There's a bonus solo piano reading of Mendelssohn's Variations Serieuses, Op. 54, that is dazzling.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 11, 2007, 06:38:06 AM
Other top contenders (other than the above-referenced DVD) for LvB cello sonatas:

Richter/Rostropovich. 

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GJ4MDS9WL._SS500_.jpg)

Cortot/Casals

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R8AR5D4GL._AA240_.jpg%5Bimg%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3EDuPre/Barenboim%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%5Dhttp://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBM5RYSML._AA240_.jpg)

Ashkenazy/Harrell

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K474HPV5L._AA240_.jpg)

Also:

Paul Tortelier / Eric Heidsieck

Martha Argerich / Mischa Maisky

HIP versions
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on May 12, 2007, 03:06:16 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 11, 2007, 06:38:06 AM
Other top contenders (other than the above-referenced DVD) for LvB cello sonatas:

(...)

HIP versions

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517z+FoXy3L._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.channelclassics.com/pictures/203592.jpg) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMie.7BOF/375x375) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMid.-upV/375x375)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 12, 2007, 12:02:24 PM
I saw today in the store:

The Legacy of Maria Yudina

Volume 9

Beethoven Sonatas Op. 31/1, 90, 101 and Violin Sonata Op. 30/1


I know I have heard good things about her, but the CD is $20.

Anyone have it? How is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 13, 2007, 03:15:49 AM
Quote from: Que on May 12, 2007, 03:06:16 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517z+FoXy3L._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.channelclassics.com/pictures/203592.jpg) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMie.7BOF/375x375) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMid.-upV/375x375)

Q

Well, I just sampled some of these HIP recordings, and I can comfortably assert that the cello sonata repertoire is very well served by HIP performances!  So expressive and intimate was the dialogue between cello and keyboard/fortepiano that I could see Beethoven smiling from above . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 13, 2007, 03:21:07 AM
Quote from: George on May 12, 2007, 12:02:24 PM
I saw today in the store:

The Legacy of Maria Yudina

Volume 9

Beethoven Sonatas Op. 31/1, 90, 101 and Violin Sonata Op. 30/1


I know I have heard good things about her, but the CD is $20.

Anyone have it? How is it?

How could anyone resist this babe:

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio-BIG/Yudina-Maria-10.jpg)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio-BIG/Yudina-Maria-11.jpg)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Yudina-Maria-08%5B1968%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Drasko on May 13, 2007, 03:57:50 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 13, 2007, 03:21:07 AM
How could anyone resist this babe:

That is not very gentlemanly of you Minor. She was 69 in that last photo. She might not have been a babe but neither too bad looking when she was young.

          (http://www.vor.ru/English/MTales/Yudina1.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 15, 2007, 10:19:16 AM
Releasing 5/15/07 ($26.49)

Julius Katchen performing LvB's PC's, Choral Fantasy, and Diabelli Variations

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/982515.jpg)

Release Date: 05/15/2007
Label:  Decca   Catalog #: 000886602   Spars Code: n/a 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Julius Katchen
Conductor:  Piero Gamba
Orchestra/Ensemble:  London Symphony Orchestra

Number of Discs: 4
Recorded in: Stereo

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 16, 2007, 06:13:19 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xz-+zVSmL._SS500_.jpg)

Anyone get this one yet?   The samples sound nice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 31, 2007, 10:17:46 AM
CLICK HERE FOR: Nathan Milstein performing Beethoven's Kreutzer Sonata (1st Mov.)  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mixnMzHUYxA)


Good stuff, Maynard .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 31, 2007, 10:28:45 AM
Well, finally decided to order some HIP Beethoven - part of a larger Amazon order below:

Gardiner in the Complete Symphonies - have two other sets, but modern instruments!

Quatuor Mosaïques in the Op. 18 SQs - actually ordered all 3 CDs, just one shown below -  :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41R2997KCDL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/July05/Beethoven_Quatuor_e8899.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 31, 2007, 10:37:42 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 31, 2007, 10:28:45 AM
Well, finally decided to order some HIP Beethoven -

(http://www.matica.hr/www/vijesti2www.nsf/AllWebDocs/slusaonica202/$File/STG01801/STG01801.gif) 

That's a winner, Dave.  One Amazon reviewer calls this the "bloodthirsty Beethoven" .......  :D  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on May 31, 2007, 10:43:40 AM
Hmm . . . must be "red in tooth and claw," eh, mon vieux?   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Steve on May 31, 2007, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: D Minor on May 31, 2007, 10:37:42 AM
That's a winner, Dave.  One Amazon reviewer calls this the "bloodthirsty Beethoven" .......  :D  :D

We share a love of Gardner, D Minor

This set is priceless.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on May 31, 2007, 11:37:01 AM
What about Herr B's Mass in C Major? I hear it's underrated and one of his best works. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 03:55:56 PM
Quote from: D Minor on May 11, 2007, 05:01:22 AM
LvB's cello sonatas had been off my radar screen until Val touted their beauty – especially the slow movements.  Accordingly, I purchased this DVD, which seems to be a no-brainer. 
]


D,
This is my  "if you only had one disc" of LvB:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/02/29344.JPG)

Pablo Casals, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, et. al.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 01, 2007, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: George on May 16, 2007, 06:13:19 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xz-+zVSmL._SS500_.jpg)

Anyone get this one yet?   The samples sound nice.

Had this cd for about 6 months, got it off the press from Brazil.

Delicate, refined sumptuous playing.  No bang bang from Mr Freire, a winner everyday and twice on Sundays  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 04:21:59 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 31, 2007, 10:43:51 AM
We share a love of Gardner, D Minor

This set is priceless.  :)

Yeah, we're hip to Gardiner ........  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 04:26:54 PM
Quote from: op.110 on May 31, 2007, 11:37:01 AM
What about Herr B's Mass in C Major? I hear it's underrated and one of his best works. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Yeah, most of us need a collective C Major Mass shot in the arm: a very often neglected masterpiece.

This bad boy is a bargain:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/71/74/820c024128a09b8bbaf2a010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 04:30:43 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 03:55:56 PM
D,
This is my  "if you only had one disc" of LvB:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/02/29344.JPG)

Pablo Casals, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, et. al.

Sweet.  There's also Casals/Serkin which is a bargain-and-a-half:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CblvS6LzL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 04:31:30 PM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 01, 2007, 04:03:03 PM
Had this cd for about 6 months,

...... so what happened to it?  :D ........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 01, 2007, 04:51:12 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 01, 2007, 04:31:30 PM
...... so what happened to it?  :D ........  >:D

Still there on the shelf, sandwiched between two Solomon Testaments.  It makes regular visits to the HiFi  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 04:51:36 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 01, 2007, 04:30:43 PM
Sweet.  There's also Casals/Serkin which is a bargain-and-a-half:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CblvS6LzL._SS500_.jpg)

The Serkin one was the main one on my radar, but found the other set at a used shop and that took care of things.  However, the purchase of the Casals/Serkin still must happen.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 01, 2007, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 01, 2007, 04:03:03 PM
Had this cd for about 6 months, got it off the press from Brazil.

Delicate, refined sumptuous playing.  No bang bang from Mr Freire, a winner everyday and twice on Sundays  ;D

I thought the Walstein was altogether too rushed for me. I haven't heard the rest, but I am sure that it is how you describe.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 01, 2007, 05:09:10 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 04:51:36 PM
The Serkin one was the main one on my radar, but found the other set at a used shop and that took care of things.  However, the purchase of the Casals/Serkin still must happen.  :)

As it must for this listener. Evening, buddy.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 06:56:05 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 04:51:36 PM
The Serkin one was the main one on my radar, but found the other set at a used shop and that took care of things.  However, the purchase of the Casals/Serkin still must happen.  :)

I have yet to visit a used CD shop ........ I think I'm missing out .........  :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 02, 2007, 10:14:29 AM
Artur Rubinstein performing LvB's 4th Piano Concerto

1st movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otn1uEOT91g)
2d movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLPydYbk0JM)
3d movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ODJHUX_EM)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 04, 2007, 05:41:02 AM
Anyone hear Anthony Newman's HiP playing of LvB's 4th? i can't remember the conductor, bu it was quite good (and cheap!). the 3rd movement is particularly captivating. They do the 2nd PC on that disc as well, which comes out sounding even more Mozart-ian than it was to begin with.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on June 04, 2007, 05:57:28 PM
Does anyone, by any chance, happen to know something about the 60 Cds Set attached? Has the theme already been tackled in this topic?
Any suggestion? I find it quite cheap (50€) and I'm greedy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on June 05, 2007, 01:14:03 AM
When it's large box sets you're talking about, Harry always has something to say. ;D

But I don't think the subject has been broached in this thread, and I'm interested too. I understand there's also a cheap 50CD set from another label?

What interests me especially is what Que asked about once (and he never got a reply, at least not that I've noticed): are the CDs packed in separate jewel boxes? This is important for those of us who probably wouldn't want every single CD in the set and would want to resell some of them.

Maciek
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 03:25:38 AM
Quote from: Doctor_Gradus on June 04, 2007, 05:57:28 PM
Does anyone, by any chance, happen to know something about the 60 Cds Set attached? Has the theme already been tackled in this topic?
Any suggestion? I find it quite cheap (50€) and I'm greedy.

That's the Arte Nova 60 CD set that Harry was raving about .......


PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 06:25:20 AM
Here's a bargain not to be missed.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XX08J6K1L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:48:49 AM
Quote from: Doctor_Gradus on June 04, 2007, 05:57:28 PM
Does anyone, by any chance, happen to know something about the 60 Cds Set attached? Has the theme already been tackled in this topic?
Any suggestion? I find it quite cheap (50€) and I'm greedy.

Oke my dear friend, I received this box some while ago, and am sampling through the box, and you have cause for greediness, for apart from the vocal works, but that is personal, I will not play, its full of excellent recordings, Symphonies, and piano/Violin concertos Zinman most beautiful, SQ, Alexander Quartet, awesome, and I could go on eternally.
By all means buy it, its dead cheap, and worth your money triple.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:51:45 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 05, 2007, 03:25:38 AM
That's the Arte Nova 60 CD set that Harry was raving about .......


PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY .........

Yes, yes, all right, I am here answering all questions concerning this box.
A note of caution however, the box is big, the cd's would fit in it thrice. Packed in flimsy paper sleeves, and all the texts and libretti on a cd rom, in English and German, PDF format. I did get for free a little stature of Beethoven with it, nice............
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: MrOsa on June 05, 2007, 01:14:03 AM
When it's large box sets you're talking about, Harry always has something to say. ;D


But I don't think the subject has been broached in this thread, and I'm interested too. I understand there's also a cheap 50CD set from another label?

What interests me especially is what Que asked about once (and he never got a reply, at least not that I've noticed): are the CDs packed in separate jewel boxes? This is important for those of us who probably wouldn't want every single CD in the set and would want to resell some of them.

Maciek

Large boxes, hmmmmmmmmmmm, really?
This EMI set you are talking about cannot reach the quality the Arte Nova/Sony set has.
The cd's are packed in papersleeves, alas.
I will not sell, but trade all the vocal recordings with anyone on the board, so please let me know if you are interested! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Novi on June 05, 2007, 12:05:39 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 06:25:20 AM
Here's a bargain not to be missed.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XX08J6K1L._SS500_.jpg)

Florestan, how does this one compare with his DG set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 12:05:56 PM
Quote from: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:48:49 AM
Oke my dear friend, I received this box some while ago, and am sampling through the box, and you have cause for greediness, for apart from the vocal works, but that is personal, I will not play, its full of excellent recordings, Symphonies, and piano/Violin concertos Zinman most beautiful, SQ, Alexander Quartet, awesome, and I could go on eternally.
By all means buy it, its dead cheap, and worth your money triple.

Harry, that's good and bad news.  :D

Good because you've answered the question ......  0:)

Bad because now I want it ! ! ! !  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 02:17:22 PM
There is also a 2007 boxset of 87 CD's supposedly containing all of LvB's 748 works ("Beethoven Complete Edition").

"Beethoven Complete Edition"  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Cedes/DocPDF/Coffret87CDCascade.pdf)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 02:37:03 PM
• 784 works on 87 CDs: the most comprehensive Beethoven Edition currently available.
• 111 works were especially recorded for this edition, including several first recordings of previously unedited pieces.
• Recordings date from 1987 – 2007, world premiere recordings included.
• The 87 CDs come in prestigious cardboard sleeves packed in a decorative cardboard box with front flap.
• Bilingual labeling (German/English)
• Bilingual booklet (German/English) including alphabetic listing of all works included
• The edition was compiled on the basis of the prestigious "Beethoven Compendium" by Barry Cooper (Thames & Hudson, London 1991)
• Kindly supported by the Association Beethoven de France (ABF) and by the renowned US Beethoven expert James F. Green, author of "The New Hess Catalog of Beethoven's Works", Vance Brook Publishing, 2003

The result is a profound edition of Beethoven's wonderful oeuvre.

The recordings are characterized by high-quality performances presented by renowned conductors, orchestras and soloists

EDIT TO ADD:

Bach-Collegium Stuttgart/Helmut Rilling; Norddeutsche Philharmonie/Eugen Duvier
Symphony Orchester des Südwestfunks Baden-Baden/Michael Gielen
Süddeutsche Philharmonie/Hanspeter Gmür; ORF Radio Symphony Orchester/Milan Horvat
Orchester der Wiener Volksoper/Eduard Lindenberg; Münchner Symphoniker/Alexander V. Pitamic
Nürnberger Symphoniker/Othmar M.F. Maga; Slowakische Philharmonie/Zdenek Kosler
Süddeutsche Philharmonie/Günter Neidlinger; Kammerorchester Bratislava/Vlastimil Horak
Artists include:
Rudolf Buchbinder, piano; Elisabeth Leonskaja, piano; Dubravka Tomsic, piano; Emmy Verhey, violin; Carlos Moerdijk, piano; Mario-Ratko Delorka, piano; Vitalij Margulis, piano; Conrad von der Goltz, violin; Jan Pollacek, violoncello; Kirste Hjort, piano; Sviatosalv Richter, piano; Irina Edelstein, piano; Stefan Gleitsmann, oboe; Ulrich Mehlhart, cello; Karl Ventulett, bassoon; Christian Lampert, horn; Hugo Steurer, piano; Ernst Gröschel, piano; Leon Spierer, violin; Sylvia Capova, piano; Hanae Nakajima, piano; Alfred Sommer, violoncello; Dieter Goldmann, piano; Christian Tetzlaff, violin; Phyllis Bryn-Julson, soprano; Marjana Lipovsek, alto; Josef Protschka, tenor; Kurt Rydl, bass; Magdalene Hajossvova, soprano; Jitka Zerhauova, alto; Peter Oswald, tenor; Peter Mikulas, bass; Peter Schreier, tenor - and many more...
CD 01 – 05: Complete Symphonies;
CD 06 - 08: Piano Concertos Nos. 1 - 5/ Triple Concerto Op. 56
CD 09: Romances for violin and orchestra nos. 1 & 2 / Violin Concerto Op. 61 / Concerto Movement for violin and orchestra WoO 5
CD 10: Variations for piano Op. 34 / Fantasy for piano Op. 77 / Polonaise for piano Op. 89 / Piano Concerto WoO 4
CD 11: The Creatures of Prometheus Op. 43
CD 12: Knight's Ballet WoO 1 / Menuets WoO 7 / German Dances WoO 8 / Counter Dances WoO 14
CD 13: Egmont Op. 84 / Wellington's Victory Op. 91
CD 14: The Ruins of Athens Op. 113 / From: Leonore Prohaska WoO 96 / Overture Op. 24 / Wo sich die Pulse jugendlich jagen WoO 98
CD 15: Romance cantabile Hess 13 / Vesta's Fire (Opera Fragment) / Coriolan Overture Op. 62 / Zur Namensfeier – Grand Overture Op. 115 / King Stephan Op. 117 / Tarpeja WoO 2 / Germania WoO 94
CD 16 – 17: Leonore (1805) Hess 109; CD 18 – 19: Fidelio Op. 72; CD 20 – 28: Complete Piano Sonatas
CD 29: Bagatelles / Albumblatt Für Elise WoO 59
CD 30: Fugue Hess 64 C major / Allegretto Hess 69 C minor / Piano Sonatas WoO 47 / Miscellaneous pieces for piano
CD 31: Rondos for piano Op. 51 / Rondos for piano WoO 48 & 49/ Variations for piano WoO 64, 65 & 69
CD 32: Variations for piano Op. 76 / Variations for piano WoO 66, 72, 73, 75, 76 & 77
CD 33: Variations for piano Op. 35 / Menuets WoO 10 / Variations for piano WoO 70, 78, 79 & 80 / Ecossaises WoO 83
CD 34: Variations for piano Op. 120
CD 35: Sonata for piano at four hands Op.6 / Two Preludes Op. 39 / Marches Op. 45 / Rondo a capriccio Op. 129 / Grand Fugue Op. 134 / Andante favori WoO 57 / Variations for piano WoO 67 & 71
CD 36: Music for a Knight's Ballet Hess 89 / German Dances Hess 100 / Menuets Hess 101 / Ländler Dances WoO 11 / German Dances WoO 13
CD 37: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 1, 2 & 3
CD 38: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 4 & 5 / Variations for piano and violin WoO 40 / Rondo for violin and piano WoO 41 / Piano Sonata WoO 51
CD 39: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 6, 7 & 8; CD 40: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 9 & 10
CD 41: Sonatas for violoncello and piano nos. 1 & 2 / Variations for violoncello and piano Op. 66 / Variations for violoncello and piano WoO 46
CD 42: Sonatas for violoncello and piano nos. 3, 4 & 5; CD 43: Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 1 & 2
CD 44: Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 3 & 5; CD 45: Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 7 & 11
CD 46: Allegretto Hess 48 / Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 8, 9 & 10 / Variations for violoncello and piano WoO 45
CD 47: Trio Op. 36 (Arrangement Symphony no. 2) / Trio for piano, clarinet and violoncello Op. 38
CD 48: Trios for violin, viola and violoncello nos. 1 & 2; CD 49: Trios for violin, viola and violoncello nos. 3, 4 & 5
CD 50: String Quartets nos. 1, 2 & 3; CD 51: String Quartets nos. 4, 5 & 6
CD 52: Prelude and Fugue Hess 31 / Quartet Hess 32 / String Quartet Hess 34 / Fugue Hess 36
CD 53: String Quartets nos. 7 & 8; CD 54: String Quartets nos. 9 & 10
CD 55: String Quartets nos. 12 & 14; CD 56: String Quartets nos. 11 & 13
CD 57: String Quartets nos. 15 & 16; CD 58: Quartets WoO 36
CD 59: Sonata for cornet and piano Op. 17 / Sextet Op. 81b / Trio for flute, bassoon and piano WoO 37
CD 60: Quintet Op. 16 / Serenade Op. 25 / Sonatina and Adagio WoO 43 / Sonatina and Andante con Variazioni WoO 44
CD 61: Trio for piano, clarinet and violoncello no. 4 / Septet Op. 20
CD 62: Quintet no. 2 Op. 29 / Quintet Fugue Op. 137 / Menuets WoO 9 / Ländler Dances WoO 15 / Miscellaneous pieces for violin
CD 63: Variations for piano and flute Op. 105 & 107
CD 64: Trio for two oboes and cor anglais Op. 87 / Variations for two oboes and cor anglais WoO 28 / Octet Op. 103
CD 65: Sextet Op. 71 / Duos WoO 27 / Marches WoO 24 & 29 / Equales WoO 30
CD 66: Songs op. 48 / Songs op. 83 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 67: Songs op. 52 / Songs Op. 75 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 68: Canons, Epigrams and Jokes / Love Songs / Solemn Songs / Ariette, Songs, Canzonetta
CD 69: Songs Op. 108 / Bundeslied op. 122 / Lied aus der Ferne WoO 137 / Der Jüngling in der Fremde WoO 138 / Sehnsucht WoO 146 / Ruf vom Berge WoO 147
CD 70: From: 25 Irish Songs WoO 152 & 153 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 71: Ah, perfido op. 65 / From: Irish Songs WoO 152, 153 & 154 / From: Welsh Songs WoO 155 / From: Scottish Songs WoO 156
CD 72: From: Polyphonic Italian Songs WoO 99 / From: Irish Songs WoO 153 & 154 / From: Scottish Songs WoO 156 / From: Miscellaneous Folk Songs WoO 157 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 73 - 75: Miscellaneous Songs
CD 76: Italian Arias and Singspiel Arias / Canons, Epigrams and Jokes
CD 77: Miscellaneous Songs
CD 78: Cantata on the death of Emperor Joseph II / Cantata on the accession of Emperor Leopold II
CD 79: Fantasy Op. 80 / The glorious moment Op. 136 / Menuet WoO 3 / Es ist vollbracht WoO 97
CD 80: Mass Op. 86 / Sacrifical Song Op. 121b / Elegiac Song Op. 118 / Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt op. 112
CD 81: Missa Solemnis Op. 123
CD 82: Christ on the Mount of Olives Op. 85
CD 83: Menuet Hess 33 / Marches WoO 18, 19 & 20 / Polonaise WoO 21 / Ecossaise WoO 22 / Duo WoO 26 / Fugue WoO 31 / German Dances WoO 42 / Allegretto WoO 53 / Pieces for piano WoO 54 / Prelude WoO 55 / Variations for piano WoO 63
CD 84: Quintet Op. 4 / Trio for piano, violin and violoncello Op. 70,2
CD 85: Cameos for piano and orchestra
CD 86: Prelude and Fugue Hess 29 / Fugues Hess 237, 238, 243 & 244 / Suite WoO 33 (Five pieces for mechanical clock)
CD 87: Leonore Overtures nos. 1, 2 & 3 / Quintet Hess 19 / Grand Fugue Op. 133


HOLY CRAP ! ! ! ! ! 


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 02:54:58 PM
$120 (87 CDs)(http://www.ccd.pl/covery/BEETBOX01.JPG)



$52.99 (60 CDs)(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ty2iGC1XL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 04:15:09 PM
Supposedly, in Sept. 2007, Brilliant Classics will be inaugurating a 100 CD boxset with everything LvB composed  :D ..... Why the sudden flurry of complete LvB boxsets?  ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lethevich on June 05, 2007, 04:22:30 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 05, 2007, 02:37:03 PM
• The 87 CDs come in prestigious cardboard sleeves packed in a decorative cardboard box with front flap.

WTF are "prestigious cardboard sleves"? They must've been scrambling desperately for an adjective there...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 05, 2007, 04:34:18 PM
Quote from: Lethe on June 05, 2007, 04:22:30 PM
WTF are "prestigious cardboard sleves"? They must've been scrambling desperately for an adjective there...

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 05:37:45 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 05, 2007, 04:15:09 PM
Supposedly, in Sept. 2007, Brilliant Classics will be inaugurating a 100 CD boxset with everything LvB composed  :D ..... Why the sudden flurry of complete LvB boxsets?  ???

Now if they can get around to the Haydn then we are golden.  I just may invest in the above.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2007, 05:57:01 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 05:37:45 PM
Now if they can get around to the Haydn then we are golden.  I just may invest in the above.

Rumor has it that they are doing exactly that right now. I can scarcely wait. I already have all of Mozart and Beethoven's music. All of it. But the complete Haydn??  :o   Right now they have the symphonies (Fischer), the fortepiano works (van Oort) and the piano trios (van Sweitens), AFAIK that is all. I know they are in process of a string quartet cycle too. But hey, that's a hell of a long way from a complete Haydn! They must already have a lot of it in the can if they are announcing it (next year, IIRC).  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 07:04:10 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2007, 05:57:01 PM
Rumor has it that they are doing exactly that right now. I can scarcely wait. I already have all of Mozart and Beethoven's music. All of it. But the complete Haydn??  :o   Right now they have the symphonies (Fischer), the fortepiano works (van Oort) and the piano trios (van Sweitens), AFAIK that is all. I know they are in process of a string quartet cycle too. But hey, that's a hell of a long way from a complete Haydn! They must already have a lot of it in the can if they are announcing it (next year, IIRC).  :)

8)

(http://www.timvp.com/addams3.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 05, 2007, 08:29:44 PM
Quote from: Lethe on June 05, 2007, 04:22:30 PM
WTF are "prestigious cardboard sleves"? They must've been scrambling desperately for an adjective there...

hahaha

That made me laugh so hard. Prestigious cardboard sleeves. lmao.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 10:22:23 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 05:37:45 PM
Now if they can get around to the Haydn then we are golden. 

I'm sure Harry eagerly awaits the complete Telemann edition! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:26:27 PM
Quote from: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 10:22:23 PM
I'm sure Harry eagerly awaits the complete Telemann edition! :)

Grand idea Andrei, I sure do.
Goodmorning my friend.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:28:38 PM
As for this grand big box of Beethoven presented somewhere above, I urge you to take a look at the performers, some good, but mostly obscure. Not so with the Sony/Arte Nova box, right! Price is a issue too.
The Brilliant box might be a option, but again the recordings are a mixed bag.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 11:31:57 PM
Quote from: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:26:27 PM
Grand idea Andrei, I sure do.
Goodmorning my friend.

Good morning, Harry! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 04:40:07 AM
Quote from: Harry on June 05, 2007, 11:28:38 PM
As for this grand big box of Beethoven presented somewhere above, I urge you to take a look at the performers, some good, but mostly obscure. Not so with the Sony/Arte Nova box, right! Price is a issue too.
The Brilliant box might be a option, but again the recordings are a mixed bag.

I agree with you, Harry.  The Sony/Arte Nova box has several acclaimed performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 04:41:20 AM
I wonder why this thread doesn't draw paulb back . . . .

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 04:43:04 AM
$59.99 = price for 9CD set of LvB's 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ

$52.99 = price for 60 CD set that includes 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ


Which is the better value?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 06, 2007, 04:50:15 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 06, 2007, 04:43:04 AM
$59.99 = price for 9CD set of LvB's 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ

$52.99 = price for 60 CD set that includes 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ


Which is the better value?

May I answer that a bit later, well lets see, 59,99 less 52,99 that should be..., no that can't be, ehhhh 60 cd's less 9 then, no that will not do either....O, I give up. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 07:24:37 AM
The trailer for The Adventures of Baron Munchausen makes delightful use of the wonderful Opus 125.

(Fourth movement, so be advised, Harry!)

In the movie itself, there is a charming allusion in the soundtrack to the Opus 27 No 2.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 11:25:45 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 07:24:37 AM
In the movie itself, there is a charming allusion in the soundtrack to the Opus 27 No 2.

Which movement, Karl?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 11:35:48 AM
Adagio sostenuto
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 11:39:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 11:35:48 AM
Adagio sostenuto

Hmmmmm ....... such an obscure choice ..........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 11:44:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 04:41:20 AM
I wonder why this thread doesn't draw paulb back . . . .

8)

This thread has been specifically designed to be paulb proof  :D ......... And all internal and external links to Pettersson have been banned .........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 11:56:54 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 06, 2007, 11:39:46 AM
Hmmmmm ....... such an obscure choice ..........  >:D

Obscure? Befitting something illuminated by the moon, I suppose . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 11:56:54 AM
Obscure? Befitting something illuminated by the moon, I suppose . . . .

........ That's what I meant .........  >:D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 07:24:37 AM
In the movie itself, there is a charming allusion in the soundtrack to the Opus 27 No 2.

.......... So the Moonlight Sonata was merely "alluded to" .......... Indirectly? ..........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 12:10:18 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 06, 2007, 12:04:35 PM
.......... So the Moonlight Sonata was merely "alluded to" .......... Indirectly? ..........

The arpeggio gets going, and you're waiting for the "tune," but it doesn't come, and the arpeggiated harmonies go elsewhere.  Very nice set up, and sonically evasive maneuvers  8)

It's when they're descending from the moon (where Robin Williams is King), on a ladder woven from some of Queen Ariadne's hair . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 02:15:43 AM
Movie showing at the bistro:

Despite some oddities (Ludwig got married in this one) the biopic is quite superbly acted and therefore with checking out by fans: 

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6051/51rfkx1b1ylss500ac5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Un grand amour de Beethoven

Harry Baur: Beethoven
Jean-Louis Barrault: Karl

dir. Abel Gance


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2007, 08:13:00 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on June 07, 2007, 02:15:43 AM
Movie showing at the bistro:

Despite some oddities (Ludwig got married in this one) the biopic is quite superbly acted and therefore with checking out by fans: 

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6051/51rfkx1b1ylss500ac5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)  (http://www.clown-ministry.com/images/three-stooges-in-color.jpg)

Un grand amour de Beethoven

Harry Baur: Beethoven
Jean-Louis Barrault: Karl

dir. Abel Gance


LOL -  ;D  I swear those guys looked like two of the 3 Stooges, just different hairdoos!  ;) :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 07, 2007, 09:22:29 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on June 07, 2007, 02:15:43 AM
Despite some oddities . . .

Jean-Louis Barrault: Karl . . .

? ? ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 07, 2007, 10:52:20 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on June 07, 2007, 08:13:00 AM
LOL -  ;D  I swear those guys looked like two of the 3 Stooges, just different hairdoos!  ;) :D

LOL!!!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 11:02:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 07, 2007, 09:22:29 AM
? ? ?

???

EDIT:  I think I got it now.  There have always been guys named Karl, including
Beethoven's trouble of a nephew.  Barrault played that character. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 07, 2007, 10:52:20 AM
LOL!!!!!

Never mind  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 07, 2007, 11:05:57 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on June 07, 2007, 11:04:13 AM
Never mind  ;D

You are a good sport fl.   :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 11:17:13 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 07, 2007, 11:05:57 AM
You are a good sport fl.   :)

I have actually found the Stooges to be quite irritating.  Max Brothers suit me
better ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2007, 01:01:34 PM
Well, to get back on track -  ;) :)  I have been listening to a LOT of Beethoven today - received the 2 Brilliant Box sets below (2-CDs per box @ only $10 each set!):

Complete String Trios & String Quintets w/ Zurich String Quintet & String Trio (same performers) - these are mostly early works in a more 'classic' style (Haydn & Mozart influences), and played by the Zurich groups in a more reserved fashion; well done, refined string playing, and excellent recorded sound.  CLICK on the images for comments from several different sources; my only other recording of the Trios is w/ Grumiaux, which I've had & enjoyed for years (but nearly twice the price @ Amazon!) - the Leopold group on Hyperion has also received great reviews in the Trios -  :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/515BKA8ZCZL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89410)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/519QE55K6NL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Quintets-Complete-Mikayel-Hakhnazaryan/dp/B000F6ZIBK/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b/102-8474919-9564165?ie=UTF8&qid=1181235146&sr=1-8)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/213N3FQVGHL._AA132_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 07, 2007, 02:33:33 PM
George offers some comments on pianist  Maria Yudina's BEETHOVEN here  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1395.0/topicseen.html)

Does she play like a tractor or a tempest?  Read and find out ........

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/36396.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 07, 2007, 02:35:22 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on June 07, 2007, 01:01:34 PM
Well, to get back on track - 

SonicMan ....... I like the way you derail a thread, and then neatly, seamlessly get it back on track!  Very nice!  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2007, 03:09:52 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 07, 2007, 02:35:22 PM
SonicMan ....... I like the way you derail a thread, and then neatly, seamlessly get it back on track!  Very nice!  :D

D Minor - thought that you would like that 'transition' -  ;)  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 07, 2007, 03:42:12 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on June 07, 2007, 03:09:52 PM
D Minor - thought that you would like that 'transition' -  ;)  Dave  :D

....... please remind me to extend you a similar courtesy when I derail one of your threads! ....... :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2007, 03:59:04 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 07, 2007, 03:42:12 PM
....... please remind me to extend you a similar courtesy when I derail one of your threads! ....... :D

Hell, you're derailing this one right now!  :o

Today I got the original version of Fidelio ("Lenore" - 1805). This one here (Staatskapelle Dresden / Blomstedt):

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/501/5018024.jpg)

I have always wanted an opportunity to compare with the end result of 1814, and finally found what purports to be a nice, complete version. Anyone familiar with it?   :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 04:10:51 AM

Found this info today about the Haskil/Grumiaux Violin sonatas: (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=43:153860~T1)
_____________________________

In early 2007, both Decca and Brilliant released three disc sets of Beethoven's complete Violin Sonatas played by Belgian violinist Arthur Grumiaux and Romanian pianist Clara Haskil. Recorded in 1956 and 1957 and originally released on LP by Philips, these performances have stood the test of time. Grumiaux's effortless virtuosity, elegant phrasing and impeccable intonation coupled with Haskil's soul and sympathetic if not always note-perfect accompaniment made for one of the most instantly appealing collections of these central repertoire works, and despite its age, anyone looking for a complete set should certainly consider this set.

Oddly enough, though, the sound seems to be quite different in both issues. Decca's is big and boomy with a healthy dollop of reverb while Brilliant's sound is dry and distant with minimal, or at least minimized, reverb. This is particularly odd since Philip's original LP sound was slightly dry but deep but a reasonable amount of reverb. Thus, those interested in Grumiaux and Haskel's Beethoven Sonatas are presented with two very different sonic alternatives in these re-issues; which they choose is, of course, up to the individual -- although old timers may decide to stick with their scratched LPs.

-All Music Guide
____________________________


I have the new Decca version and agree with the reviewers comments. Looks like this may be a case where Brilliant does a better job. I must say that I am upset and surprised by this. :-\



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 08, 2007, 04:15:13 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2007, 03:59:04 PM
Hell, you're derailing this one right now!  :o

Ironically (and interestingly), the very act of pointing out a derailment is, itself, a derailment ........  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 04:41:57 PM
(http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD4049h.gif)


Just read in the Wilhelm Furtwangler Society UK Newsletter that the 6 recordings of LvB symphonies featured in the above box are, with only one exception in their opinion, the very best available performances of each symphony that Furtwangler ever recorded. They give each recording a 0 to 4 star rating.

For #3, they cite 9 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.

For #4 they cite 6 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 3 stars. (None of them got 5 stars)

For #5 they cite 11 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.

For #6 they cite 7 versions and rate the M&A second highest, at 3 stars (only because of the poor sound).   

For #7, they cite 5 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.

For #9, they cite 11 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.



Then I found this excerpt from a fanfare review about the transfers on the above set:

This is an important collection of Furtwängler's finest wartime Beethoven ?performances, well-transferred and generously fit onto four CDs. Music & Arts ?is selling it at the reasonable price of $39.92 (plus $3.00 shipping) on its ?website (www.musicandarts.com), and recommending $43.92 in stores. This ?certainly makes these performances available at a more reasonable price than ?the hard-to-find Tahra label, so the important question relates to the quality ?of the transfers. ?       
All of these performances have been available before, and on many labels, with ?four of the six having been released in a two-disc set by the same label (M&A ?CD-824) in different transfers. The new Furtwängler collector will simply want ?to know whether this is good enough to obtain, while the more experienced ?collector will want to know how it stacks up against previous releases of the ?same material. For the new collector, I think the advice is simple. If you ?don't have these performances in some other form, they are an essential part of ?the work of this conductor, and these transfers are good enough to warrant ?purchase. ?
...Maggi Payne has been responsible for some of the best transfer work Music & ?Arts has issued, and her results here are at a very high level. I performed ?direct comparisons with my favorite previous transfers, and these came close in ?each case, and exceeded the competition in some. If you have M&A CD-824, which ?contains the same performances of Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, 6, and 7, the transfers ?here are much clearer and cleaner, and would merit replacing the earlier ?release with this new one.... Interestingly, the transfers here are different ?even from Ms. Payne's work on Music & Arts 942, which is a complete Beethoven ?symphony cycle duplicating some of these performances. I don't know if the ?reason is that Music & Arts provided her with superior source material, or that ?she has simply refined her approach, but there is more bite and more clarity on ?this new set. The most consistent of other labels has been Tahra. Both M&A and Tahra are ?satisfying in different ways; Tahra provides a warmer sound, but M&A clarifies ?more detail and has more bite because of greater high frequency presence, and a ?bit less added reverb or "ambience." In the case of this famous Ninth, in fact, ?I find M&A's new transfer the finest yet published.... ?       
In addition to its fine sonic production, Music & Arts has provided ?stimulating notes taken from John Ardoin's excellent book The Furtwängler ?Record, and generally good documentation. You will, though, search long and ?hard before you find the listing for the soloists in the Ninth (it seems to ?only exist in Ardoin's comments, where the details of all of Furtwängler's ?recorded performances of the work are listed). ?       
This is, then, an extraordinary set of discs. It is generously filled (each ?disc is over seventy minutes) with high quality transfers of performances ?unique in the history of recorded sound, performances that will make every ?listener hear this music and think about music performance, in new ways. You ?might, in the end, find the intensity excessive, but you will certainly not be ?bored, and you just might wonder what it will take to again find conducting and ?orchestral playing so filled with a sense of event.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 08, 2007, 05:24:16 PM
George,
According to Que, this may be the best Furtwangler 9th:

(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 07:31:11 PM
Quote from: Bogey on June 08, 2007, 05:24:16 PM
George,
According to Que, this may be the best Furtwangler 9th:

(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)

From the aforementioned Furt Society newsletter:

Bayreuth August 9, 1954: Samy Habra has always considered this performance better than the 1951 Bayreuth [the other Furt LvB 9 that gets 4 stars]; unfortunately severe distortion makes the tape hard to listen to.

(Looks like they agree, though I don't think I want to hear a recording of lesser quality, with the M&A I'm already stretching my limit.)   :-\

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on June 08, 2007, 10:30:11 PM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2007, 07:31:11 PM
From the aforementioned Furt Society newsletter:

Bayreuth August 9, 1954: Samy Habra has always considered this performance better than the 1951 Bayreuth [the other Furt LvB 9 that gets 4 stars]; unfortunately severe distortion makes the tape hard to listen to.

(Looks like they agree, though I don't think I want to hear a recording of lesser quality, with the M&A I'm already stretching my limit.)   :-\

:)

George, I don't know what tape they are talking about, but the LvB 9th '54 on Tahra has NO distortion of any significance - I can assure you. The sound quality is even better than the '51 recording on EMI!

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 09, 2007, 05:56:14 AM
Quote from: Que on June 08, 2007, 10:30:11 PM
George, I don't know what tape they are talking about, but the LvB 9th '54 on Tahra has NO distortion of any significance - I can assure you. The sound quality is even better than the '51 recording on EMI!

Q

There's 2 from Aug '54. They aren't talking about the Aug 22 performance, they are referring to the:

Quote from: George on June 08, 2007, 07:31:11 PM
From the aforementioned Furt Society newsletter:

Bayreuth August 9, 1954: Samy Habra has always considered this performance better than the 1951 Bayreuth [the other Furt LvB 9 that gets 4 stars]; unfortunately severe distortion makes the tape hard to listen to.

(Looks like they agree, though I don't think I want to hear a recording of lesser quality, with the M&A I'm already stretching my limit.)   :-\

:)

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on June 09, 2007, 06:24:53 AM
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 05:56:14 AM
There's 2 from Aug '54. They aren't talking about the Aug 22 performance, they are referring to the:

:)

Ah, yes. Bayreuth! ;D Sorry for the confusion.

Well, note that the recording Bill pictured and is on Tahra is the Lucerne performance, and that's the one you'll need! :) (And is of outstanding sound quality - for a live performance of the '50s, of course)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 09, 2007, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: George on June 08, 2007, 04:10:51 AM
Found this info today about the Haskil/Grumiaux Violin sonatas: (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=43:153860~T1)
_____________________________

Oddly enough, though, the sound seems to be quite different in both issues. Decca's is big and boomy with a healthy dollop of reverb while Brilliant's sound is dry and distant with minimal, or at least minimized, reverb. This is particularly odd since Philip's original LP sound was slightly dry but deep but a reasonable amount of reverb. Thus, those interested in Grumiaux and Haskel's Beethoven Sonatas are presented with two very different sonic alternatives in these re-issues; which they choose is, of course, up to the individual -- although old timers may decide to stick with their scratched LPs.

-All Music Guide
____________________________


I have the new Decca version and agree with the reviewers comments. Looks like this may be a case where Brilliant does a better job. I must say that I am upset and surprised by this. :-\



That is not good news!

Blast...I guess I'll be holding on to my older Philips set. :-\


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 09, 2007, 07:49:06 PM
Quote from: donwyn on June 09, 2007, 06:42:07 PM

That is not good news!

Blast...I guess I'll be holding on to my older Philips set. :-\

I thought Decca was a reputable company.... ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 05:05:16 AM
Quote from: donwyn on June 09, 2007, 06:42:07 PM
Blast...I guess I'll be holding on to my older Philips set. :-\

And I won't be replacing my Zukerman/Barenboim and Mutter/Orkis.  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 11, 2007, 04:49:11 AM
Beethoven Triple Concerto, released last month  :D

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VUTG0Cc2L._SS400_.jpg)

Concerto for Piano, Violin and Cello in C major, Op. 56 "Triple Concerto" by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Gautier Capuçon (Cello), Martha Argerich (Piano), Renaud Capuçon (Violin)
Conductor:  Alexandre Rabinovitch
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Flanders Symphony Orchestra

Symphony no 1 in D major, Op. 25 "Classical" by Sergei Prokofiev

Conductor:  Alexandre Rabinovitch
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Flanders Symphony Orchestra

Concerto for Piano no 1 in D flat major, Op. 10 by Sergei Prokofiev

Performer:  Martha Argerich (Piano)
Conductor:  Alexandre Rabinovitch
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Flanders Symphony Orchestra

Sonata for Violin and Piano no 1 in A minor, Op. 105 by Robert Schumann

Performer:  Martha Argerich (Piano), Renaud Capuçon (Violin)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on June 11, 2007, 05:14:32 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

my favorite recording of the ninth
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on June 11, 2007, 06:11:15 PM
Quote from: op.110 on June 11, 2007, 05:14:32 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

my favorite recording of the ninth

YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!!!!!!  That is a marvellous recording (and so few people ever mention it).  The 2nd and 4th movements especially are beyond phenomenal!  It's also a live recording and has a great "vibe" to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2007, 06:46:45 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 11, 2007, 04:49:11 AM
Beethoven Triple Concerto, released last month  :D

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VUTG0Cc2L._SS400_.jpg)


That looks like a dandy! And not just for Argerich. Gautier Capuçon is fast becoming one of my favorite cellists. He can both dig into the instrument and caress it at the same time. All with a warm, husky, singing tone that is pure delight.




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on June 11, 2007, 06:48:29 PM
Martha Argerich used to be hot man. See what smoking and aging does to a person? Ewww
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2007, 06:50:48 PM
Quote from: op.110 on June 11, 2007, 05:14:32 PM

my favorite recording of the ninth

Gosh, I hope you're right. I just bought it on your rec... :)

(always can use a new 9th, never have enough)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 11, 2007, 06:52:33 PM
Quote from: op.110 on June 11, 2007, 05:14:32 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

my favorite recording of the ninth

I want ........ I want ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:00:29 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

Quote from: D Minor on June 11, 2007, 06:52:33 PM
I want ........ I want ........

D,
I wonder if there is a discount if we get enough of us together and buy in bulk?

Gurn,
Is this in your stack of 18?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 11, 2007, 07:08:50 PM
Quote from: Mozart on June 11, 2007, 06:48:29 PM
Martha Argerich used to be hot man. See what smoking and aging does to a person? Ewww

Let that be a lesson to you.  $:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 11, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 12, 2007, 12:10:25 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 11, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.

It is one of several from Karajan that is good, yes.
The remastered set is IMO to be preferred, although this one is good too>
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 03:59:08 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:00:29 PM
I wonder if there is a discount if we get enough of us together and buy in bulk?

Yeah, we should form a buying club .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2007, 04:13:30 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:00:29 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

D,
I wonder if there is a discount if we get enough of us together and buy in bulk?

Gurn,
Is this in your stack of 18?

Well, it will be by Monday... or maybe even in time for Sunday service.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 04:31:28 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2007, 04:13:30 AM
Well, it will be by Monday... or maybe even in time for Sunday service.... :D

8)

Gurn, FYI, there are no deliveries on Sunday ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 04:55:31 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 11, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.






Accept no substitutes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 12, 2007, 04:57:25 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 04:55:31 AM





Accept no substitutes.

Top-shelf.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:00:24 AM
And, from the Respectful Opposition:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5158JXFZ8VL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 05:00:41 AM
Of course, I don't mean there aren't other excellent, worthwhile recordings of these pieces. But if I was given one choice, this does it.

That written, I had many other recordings of this work, and I highly reccomend checking out at least a couple of interpretations, you might find one that is more personally appealing among them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:05:29 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 05:00:41 AM
Of course, I don't mean there aren't other excellent, worthwhile recordings of these pieces. But if I was given one choice, this does it.

That written, I had many other recordings of this work, and I highly reccomend checking out at least a couple of interpretations, you might find one that is more personally appealing among them.

0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on June 12, 2007, 05:07:30 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 12, 2007, 04:57:25 AM
Top-shelf.
In Britain, top-shelf can refer to pornographic magazines. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:08:16 AM
Quote from: edward on June 12, 2007, 05:07:30 AM
In Britain, top-shelf can refer to pornographic magazines. ;)

Barkeep, I want to buy that man a drink!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 11, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.

I disagree.


I say it's his best Beethoven cycle.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:12:10 AM
I like your sense of humor, George!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:12:37 AM
Barkeep, I want to buy that man some tempeh!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 06:18:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:12:37 AM
Barkeep, I want to buy that man some tempeh!

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
The worse 9th I've heard was the Muti-conducted effort. The boredom was insurmountable, even during the last movement.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 06:23:32 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
The worse 9th I've heard was the Muti-conducted effort. The boredom was insurmountable, even during the last movement.

I think what I hated about it was that the sound was very distant, like you had the cheapest seat in the hall. Perhaps that's why it was the cheapest version in the store.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 12, 2007, 06:23:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:12:37 AM
Barkeep, I want to buy that man some tempeh!

And a glass of Soja milk, added some fruitjuice. ;D
That's real tasty.
I drink it every day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 06:24:03 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
The worse 9th I've heard was the Muti-conducted effort. The boredom was insurmountable, even during the last movement.

Well, if you made it all the way through to the last movement, then, apparently, it wasn't entirely insurmountable ........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:31:03 AM
Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 06:23:32 AM
I think what I hated about it was that the sound was very distant, like you had the cheapest seat in the hall. Perhaps that's why it was the cheapest version in the store.  ::)




Hey, that's funny...I bought this on a compilation of full symphonies. The set had included a very good rendition of Profokiev's "Classical" (Mackerras I believe). The other two were a satisfactory rendition of Mendellssohn's "Classical" and a truly abominable "Surprise" Symphony.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:32:31 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 06:24:03 AM
Well, if you made it all the way through to the last movement, then, apparently, it wasn't entirely insurmountable ........  >:D


Remember the old joke:

Bertha:"The food here is horrible!"
Norbert: "Yes, and what small portions!"


That's twice this morning you brought a big smile to my face, D. That's two more than most people ever give me, so I am very grateful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:33:03 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:31:03 AM
. . . a satisfactory rendition of Mendellssohn's "Classical" . . . .

I'm guessing you mean L'italiana . . . ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:33:25 AM
D Minor the Bringer of Smiles
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:33:39 AM
"There oughta be a planet!"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 06:35:11 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 07:00:29 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

When I saw this one posted, I had never heard of it. So, like I usually do in that case, I checked my trusty guidebook: "3rd Ear for Classical." Though I certainly don't wish to start a quarrel, I feel it would be irresponsible of me to not report my findings.

Mehta leads a competent, nondescript performance that can be ignored; while getting great playing from his orchestra, they can't compete with the best.

In case your wondering, the reviewer's idea of "the best" are Bernstein's 2 recordings for DG, Abbado's on Sony, Leinsdorf on RCA, Reiner on RCA, Walter on Sony, Karajan '63 on DG, Stokowski on Decca, Kubelik on DG and Muti on Seraphim.     



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 06:36:05 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 06:33:03 AM
I'm guessing you mean L'italiana . . . ?




Thanks, Karl, my fingers ran off on me...


That performance couldn't even ride on the jovial splendor of the "Faerie Dance".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 03:55:53 PM
Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 06:35:11 AM
In case your wondering, the reviewer's idea of "the best" are *** Leinsdorf on RCA ***

Tell that to Iago ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 06:35:11 AM
"3rd Ear for Classical."

I need this book.  Meanwhile, what are the recommendations for:

Missa Solemnis
Piano Sonata Cycle
PC's 4 and 5

Does anyone else have the book 3rd Ear for Classical?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 04:02:37 PM
I need this book.  Meanwhile, what are the recommendations for:

Missa Solemnis - Klemperer, Karajan, Toscanini, Bohm, Harnoncourt

Piano Sonata Cycle - Annie Fischer, Backhaus, Kempff (mono), Brendel (Vox), Arrau (1960s set), Goode, Nat and Kuerti.

PC's 4- Serkin, Schnabel, Gilels, E. Fischer, Haskil, Curzon, Rubinstein, Arrau, Katchen, Kempff (Van Kempen), Brendel, Backhaus, Pollini, Perahia

and 5 - Horowitz/Reiner, Serkin/Ormandy, Serkin/Bernstein, Schnabel, Rubinstein/Krips, E. Fischer, Gieseking/Rother, Michelangeli/Celibidache, Curzon/Knappertsbusch, Kovacevich/Davis, Kissin/Levine, Cliburn/Reiner, Katz, Hess, Kempff/Van Kempen, Perahia, Uchida, Arrau, Levin/Gardiner and Immerseel/Weil.   

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 12, 2007, 05:20:11 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 11, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.


Well, at least Karajan has his hair positioned for maximum effect! ;D ;D





Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: donwyn on June 12, 2007, 05:20:11 PM

Well, at least Karajan has his hair positioned for maximum effect! ;D ;D

That is decidedly the Opus 67 'Do . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:23:26 PM
That is decidedly the Opus 67 'Do . . . .

It's just plain wrong to have an op. 67 hairdo for an op. 125 cover .......

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 13, 2007, 03:42:48 AM
HvK was a maverick pioneer in the mix-'n'-match genre . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 13, 2007, 04:37:34 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 05:37:14 PM
It's just plain wrong to have an op. 67 hairdo for an op. 125 cover .......






Damn the blindness!!! Can't you see the heroic contemplation ;D?







Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 13, 2007, 05:16:42 AM
Did Mahler blunder when he reorchestrated LvB 9?  I haven't heard it ........

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/215SJ022T4L._AA130_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 13, 2007, 05:50:48 AM
LANG LANG ALERT ! ! !This is actually a good explanation of the slow movement of LvB's 4th Piano Concerto (ORCH = Gods of the Underworld; PIANO = Orpheus) ...... go to video box about 6 inches from top of page, and click on play, and jump to 2:40 ........ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OYC3FM/ref=amb_link_4829342_/002-2578474-8988060?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_r=0RWA2C12V0W9GD7G1AQP&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=288334401&pf_rd_i=573448)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2007, 05:51:15 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 13, 2007, 05:16:42 AM
Did Mahler blunder when he reorchestrated LvB 9?  I haven't heard it ........

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/215SJ022T4L._AA130_.jpg)

Beyond question, he did. I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. It is so overloaded instrument-wise that the beauty of the original is gone, leaving only a fat, steaming pile of notes on the stage... Tubas, d, friggin' tubas!  :o  :o

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 13, 2007, 05:57:01 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2007, 05:51:15 AM
Beyond question, he did. I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. It is so overloaded instrument-wise that the beauty of the original is gone, leaving only a fat, steaming pile of notes on the stage... Tubas, d, friggin' tubas!  :o  :o

8)

:D  So you loved it, then!  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
Eroica a film about a symphony! Can it be done? I was wondering and now I know it's possible. BBC Classical Music Television did an outstanding job with making Beethoven's Eroica into a luscious film.

The real action is the playing of the symphony, one movement after the other, with a handfull of people adding interest and comments. It's all about Beethoven taking his latest work to a performance at the palace of Prince Lobkowitz in Vienna. The assembled orchestra gets the libretto, looks at it, mumbles and then starts playing, but only the first few notes because it's all  so different and bewildering. Now that's what I call sight-reading at it's extreme. Those musicians must have been outstanding. Beethoven does give some instructions and now and then conducts, but most of the time they have to rely on their concert master, who is played by a real life violinist of the Orchestra Révolutionnaire Romantique. Most of the members of the actor orchestra are members of John Eliot Gardiner's band. He does the real conducting.

Ian Hart does a great job acting the temperamental Beethoven and Tim Pigott-Smith of the old TV series The Jewel in the Crown plays a bad guy - again! - Count Dietrichstein, who doesn't think much of this new, confused piece of music. Yes, there is a pretty lady to take care of Ludwig's love interest but the Eroica is actually the star of the film. Very well done indeed!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 03:27:02 PM
Illustration:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 14, 2007, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
Eroica a film about a symphony! Can it be done? I was wondering and now I know it's possible. BBC Classical Music Television did an outstanding job with making Beethoven's Eroica into a luscious film.

The real action is the playing of the symphony, one movement after the other, with a handfull of people adding interest and comments. It's all about Beethoven taking his latest work to a performance at the palace of Prince Lobkowitz in Vienna. The assembled orchestra gets the libretto, looks at it, mumbles and then starts playing, but only the first few notes because it's all  so different and bewildering. Now that's what I call sight-seeing at it's extreme. Those musicians must have been outstanding. Beethoven does give some instructions and now and then conducts, but most of the time they have to rely on their concert master, who is played by a real life violinist of the Orchestra Révolutionnaire Romantique. Most of the members of the actor orchestra are members of John Eliot Gardiner's band. He does the real conducting.

Ian Hart does a great job acting the temperamental Beethoven and Tim Pigott-Smith of the old TV series The Jewel in the Crown plays a bad guy - again! - Count Dietrichstein, who doesn't think much of this new, confused piece of music. Yes, there is a pretty lady to take care of Ludwig's love interest but the Eroica is actually the star of the film. Very well done indeed!

Absolutely love this film!  Wish I knew the historical inaccuracies, if there are any.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 06:13:40 PM
Ah! You have seen it and love it!  :)

I am not familiar with Beethoven's biographical data but probably our 'ancient' music adorer will know all about that. On the other hand, I think the poor lad does not have a DVD player, so he can't help us. The story about the baroness Ludwig wanted to marry is news to me, as is the fact she had to refuse him because of an Austrian law against her marriage to a commoner.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 14, 2007, 06:31:19 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 06:13:40 PM
Ah! You have seen it and love it!  :)

I am not familiar with Beethoven's biographical data but probably our 'ancient' music adorer will know all about that. On the other hand, I think the poor lad does not have a DVD player, so he can't help us. The story about the baroness Ludwig wanted to marry is news to me, as is the fact she had to refuse him because of an Austrian law against her marriage to a commoner.

Seen it....and bought it a few days later.  I wished it would of been longer, had the entire symphony, as it does, and then went on with more story.  Definitely a favorite here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 03:24:32 AM
Another Eroica DVD worthy of purchase .........

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4153-%2BqYLbL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Hector on June 15, 2007, 05:48:19 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 06:13:40 PM
Ah! You have seen it and love it!  :)

I am not familiar with Beethoven's biographical data but probably our 'ancient' music adorer will know all about that. On the other hand, I think the poor lad does not have a DVD player, so he can't help us. The story about the baroness Ludwig wanted to marry is news to me, as is the fact she had to refuse him because of an Austrian law against her marriage to a commoner.

No, no, no, she would lose her status if she married a commoner.

Her point was that she could not afford to do that what with her children and all.

This is one of the historical inacuracies put in to add to the dramatic tension, like wheeling on Haydn  at the end ("Papa").

It has lines like: "This changes music forever, doesn't it?"

Enjoyable tosh!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 05:57:09 AM
Quote from: Hector on June 15, 2007, 05:48:19 AM
No, no, no, she would lose her status if she married a commoner.


That's what the Austrian law I mentioned in my post is all about. She would also lose the custody of her four children.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 05:57:39 AM
Quote from: Hector on June 15, 2007, 05:48:19 AM
It has lines like: "This changes music forever, doesn't it?"

Quoth Harrison Ford on the set of Star Wars:

Quote from: FordYou can write this crap, George, but you can't say it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 06:57:45 AM
I'm doing my part to advertise Bogey's Beethoven-related threads (click on link below):

LvB Lieder (http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/art/beethoven014.jpg)  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1550.0/topicseen.html)


Click on the link above ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:12:36 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 15, 2007, 06:57:45 AM
I'm doing my part to advertise Bogey's Beethoven-related threads

I'd like to help Bogey but as much as I love Lieder and Beethoven, I have not a single Beethoven Lied. I've been watching the thread, hoping to see some good recommendations.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:15:03 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 03:11:44 PM
Eroica a film about a symphony! Can it be done? I was wondering and now I know it's possible. BBC Classical Music Television did an outstanding job with making Beethoven's Eroica into a luscious film.

I bought this recently, along with Ken Russell's Mahler. I watched Mahler first and I'm still trying to recover from that! I'll probably watch Eroica this weekend.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 07:15:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:15:03 AM
I watched Mahler first and I'm still trying to recover from that!

I could not possibly comment, Sarge  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 07:17:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:15:03 AM
I bought this recently, along with Ken Russell's Mahler. I watched Mahler first and I'm still trying to recover from that! I'll probably watch Eroica this weekend.

Sarge




How was "Mahler"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:21:42 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 07:17:44 AM



How was "Mahler"?

Uh... Stunning...but not in a good way  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 07:34:12 AM
Still looking for Beethoven songs? I found this:


"Beethoven - Irish, Welsh and Scottish Songs
Sophie Daneman (soprano); Paul Agnew (tenor); Peter Harvey (baritone)
Alix Verzier (cello); Alessandro Moccia (violin); Jérôme Hantaï (fortepiano)
Naïve E8850 (texts and translations in English, French and German)

Far more pleasing to the music-lover in general is this selection from Beethoven's folksong settings. The three singers are all veterans of the baroque movement but nonetheless manage to convey a certain freshness. The selections are brilliantly contrasted so that one never tires, while Beethoven always amazes us with the variety he provides for the accompaniments. Singers and instrumentalists are attuned to every nuance, so that unalloyed delight is our reward."

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 07:36:29 AM
This sounds even more promising:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000MM1EUG&authorID=A21VR7M8O55EF6&store=yourstore&reviewID=R2K4AMDXPLZR4O&displayType=ReviewDetail
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:37:25 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 07:17:44 AM
How was "Mahler"?

I'd seen a few Ken Russell film biographies before: Savage Messiah, about the sculptor Henri Gaudier, and The Music Lovers, about Tchaikovsky. So I knew what to expect: liberties taken with the facts, over-the-top emotionalism, offensive images, sophomoric symbolism. In Mahler, Russell didn't disappoint those expections but carried them to an entirely new level.  ;D

Mahler's conversion to Christianity featured a leather clad and helmeted Cosima Wagner as Christian/Nazi/goddess, making Gustav literally jump through hoops. Mahler dreams of his death and funeral, with Alma dancing on his coffin during a song and dance production number, while Storm Troopers carry him to the crematorium. The final scene though, Mahler and Alma walking happily together and Mahler shouting joyously, "We're going to live forever" packs a real emotional punch because we know he's only got a week or so to live. And the soundtrack is great   ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 07:40:45 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 07:34:12 AM
Still looking for Beethoven songs? I found this:


"Beethoven - Irish, Welsh and Scottish Songs
Sophie Daneman (soprano); Paul Agnew (tenor); Peter Harvey (baritone)
Alix Verzier (cello); Alessandro Moccia (violin); Jérôme Hantaï (fortepiano)
Naïve E8850 (texts and translations in English, French and German)

Far more pleasing to the music-lover in general is this selection from Beethoven's folksong settings. The three singers are all veterans of the baroque movement but nonetheless manage to convey a certain freshness. The selections are brilliantly contrasted so that one never tires, while Beethoven always amazes us with the variety he provides for the accompaniments. Singers and instrumentalists are attuned to every nuance, so that unalloyed delight is our reward."



Yes I am....and thank you very much!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 07:42:20 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 07:40:45 AM
Yes I am....and thank you very much!

I posted some thoughts on your thread as well, Bill.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 07:47:34 AM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 07:42:20 AM
I posted some thoughts on your thread as well, Bill.  :)

Got that one too George....at least there are some choices to be had.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 07:48:39 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 07:47:34 AM
Got that one too George....at least there are some choices to be had.  :)

Yes, that Orfeo one would be first on my list.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 07:51:03 AM
Just listen to this voice:

http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3)

:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 07:56:31 AM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 07:51:03 AM
Just listen to this voice:

http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3)

:)

That is outstanding.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 08:13:04 AM
Quote from: George on June 15, 2007, 07:51:03 AM
Just listen to this voice:

http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3)

:)

Yep, that voice ........  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 08:14:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:37:25 AM
And the soundtrack is great   ;D

;D  ;D  :D  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 08:20:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:37:25 AM


Mahler's conversion to Christianity featured a leather clad and helmeted Cosima Wagner as Christian/Nazi/goddess, making Gustav literally jump through hoops. Mahler dreams of his death and burial, with Alma dancing on his coffin during a song and dance production number, while Storm Troopers carry him to the crematorium. Sarge






I think I'll pass on this. Thanks for the warning, Sarge.

That said, I'd like to heartily reccomend "What the Universe Tells Me"!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 08:43:06 AM
Quote from: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 08:20:54 AM



I think I'll pass on this. Thanks for the warning, Sarge.

That said, I'd like to heartily reccomend "What the Universe Tells Me"!

Yes, I would like to see that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 08:49:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:37:25 AM
I'd seen a few Ken Russell film biographies before: Savage Messiah, about the sculptor Henri Gaudier, and The Music Lovers, about Tchaikovsky. So I knew what to expect: liberties taken with the facts, over-the-top emotionalism, offensive images, sophomoric symbolism. In Mahler, Russell didn't disappoint those expections but carried them to an entirely new level.  ;D

Parfois! Let Ken Russell be Ken Russell!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 16, 2007, 04:06:18 AM
Released June 12, 2007

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51icIc9bNqL._SS500_.jpg)

Release Date: 06/12/2007
Label:  Testament   Catalog #: 1406   Spars Code: n/a 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Conductor:  Otto Klemperer
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Philharmonia Orchestra

Also releasing with Klemperer 1/8 4/5 Missa Solemnis
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 18, 2007, 06:07:46 AM
Released 6/12
Recorded 1971

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KjaMXAHpL._SS500_.jpg)

1.  Sonata for Piano no 8 in A minor, K 310 (300d) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1778; Paris, France
Date of Recording: 1971

2.  Variations (6) for Piano in F major on "Salve tu, Domine", K 398 (416e) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1783; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971

3.  Fantasia for Piano in D minor, K 397 (385g) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1782; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971

4.  Sonata for Piano no 21 in C major, Op. 53 "Waldstein" by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1803-1804; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971

5.  Sonata for Piano no 28 in A major, Op. 101 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1816; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971  


6.  Songs without words, vol 6, Op. 67: no 4, Presto in C major "Spinning Song" by Felix Mendelssohn

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Romantic
Written: 1845; Germany
Date of Recording: 1971

7.  Nachtstücke (4) for Piano, Op. 23 by Robert Schumann

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Romantic
Written: 1839; Germany
Date of Recording: 1971
 
8.  Songs without words: Excerpt(s) by Felix Mendelssohn

Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Romantic
Written: Germany

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 18, 2007, 11:27:22 AM
Released 6/12

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QdqWWKgPL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 23, 2007, 10:33:19 AM
One of the clues to this Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle (acrostic) was:

COMPOSER WITH THE FINAL DYING WORDS: "Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over."

ANSWER: Beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 23, 2007, 10:37:57 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 23, 2007, 10:33:19 AM
One of the clues to this Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle (acrostic) was:

COMPOSER WITH THE FINAL DYING WORDS: "Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over."

ANSWER: Beethoven

Cool.  8)

So I take it that portion of Immortal Beloved is historically accurate?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 23, 2007, 10:42:46 AM
Quote from: George on June 23, 2007, 10:37:57 AM
So I take it that portion of Immortal Beloved is historically accurate?

Possibly.  At least there's some authority for the proposition!  :)

Needless to say, it's disputed as to (1) whether Beethoven said that; and (2) what it means.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DetUudslukkelige on June 24, 2007, 08:10:23 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 23, 2007, 10:42:46 AM
Needless to say, it's disputed as to (1) whether Beethoven said that; and (2) what it means.

Strangely, a very similar quote was supposedly said by Caesar Augustus on his deathbed. I personally don't believe these romanticized views of people's final words, anyway, but if he really did say this, perhaps he drew some inspiration from Augustus?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 24, 2007, 08:19:04 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 23, 2007, 10:42:46 AM
Possibly.  At least there's some authority for the proposition!  :)

Needless to say, it's disputed as to (1) whether Beethoven said that; and (2) what it means.



This quote seems about a historically verified as pretty much anything else LvB spoke. That is, it's generally considered to be true. The quote was made after his receiving of the last Rites, so many have questioned whether it referred to life itself, or Catholicism. The latter doesn't quite hold up as well as the former (though both are not without reference to his other quotes of the time)...it's hard to be convinced that Beethoven was too much of a lapsed Catholic when he publicly stated the Missa Solemnis was his best piece.  Even many Roman Catholics would argue for the 9th Symphony, Piano Concerto #5, or op. 131 as being his pinnacle. (You know which work this RC picks!)

I realize that the logic behind such an assertion is very faulty, and that's coming from a grievously biased person.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on June 24, 2007, 08:23:04 AM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'm an atheist and think that the Missa solemnis is certainly his greatest work for large forces. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 24, 2007, 08:37:46 AM
Quote from: edward on June 24, 2007, 08:23:04 AM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'm an atheist and think that the Missa solemnis is certainly his greatest work for large forces. ;)




The MS is by far my own favorite chorale work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on June 24, 2007, 08:47:41 AM
Quote from: DetUudslukkelige on June 24, 2007, 08:10:23 AM
Strangely, a very similar quote was supposedly said by Caesar Augustus on his deathbed. I personally don't believe these romanticized views of people's final words, anyway, but if he really did say this, perhaps he drew some inspiration from Augustus?

I think you are right, many "last words" by famous people are very likely authored to sound good and somehow meaningful, and many of them are of very dubious authenticity or very obviously invented by someone else.

In Beethoven's case, his last words were recorded by Anton Schindler whose credibility is not always unquestionable either, but his account of Beethoven's final days appears to be very honest and realistic, brutally realistic even.

However, what Haffner said here has, in the best Catholic tradition, absolutely nothing to do with the recorded evidence, true or not.

According to which, Beethoven's last words were completely different, namely "Schade, schade, zu spät!"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 24, 2007, 08:51:34 AM
Quote from: M forever on June 24, 2007, 08:47:41 AM
However, what Haffner said here has, in the best Catholic tradition, absolutely nothing to do with the recorded evidence, true or not.





Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 25, 2007, 07:48:21 AM
Quote from: DetUudslukkelige on June 24, 2007, 08:10:23 AM
I personally don't believe these romanticized views of people's final words,

Supposedly, Mahler's final deathbed utterance was MOZART .........


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 25, 2007, 07:50:47 AM
Quote from: edward on June 24, 2007, 08:23:04 AM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'm an atheist and think that the Missa solemnis is certainly his greatest work for large forces. ;)

Yeah, the reason I love Missa has nothing to do with religion .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 25, 2007, 07:54:34 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 25, 2007, 07:48:21 AM
Supposedly, Mahler's final deathbed utterance was MOZART .........







Mozartl, or little Mozart. I guess Mahler had seen a vision of little Mozart playing the piano. Something one might find in a vision of heaven...imagined or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 25, 2007, 07:50:47 AM
Yeah, the reason I love Missa has nothing to do with religion .........

This is quite off-topic, but what the hey. D, is the excerpt from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in your signature arranged? Or is it the original organ score?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 25, 2007, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
This is quite off-topic, but what the hey.

Hey, any question regarding a composition in d minor  is always within topic!  :D

Quote from: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 11:55:40 AM
is the excerpt from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in your signature arranged? Or is it the original organ score?

Very good question.  Although it is substantially similar to the original organ score, it is, in fact, a transcription / arrangement (not sure for what instrument(s)).

CLICK HERE AND THEN CLICK ON THE LINK TO OPEN PDF FILE  (http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=1631)

I actually prefer the full organ score, but I couldn't readily find one that fits within my signature ........  :'(  :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 02:03:57 PM
Do you think pianoforte would be a wild guess? Concerning the fact that all the symbols and indications written on the arrangement can be possibly played on one. Especially the pedal...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: MishaK on June 25, 2007, 03:30:37 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 02:03:57 PM
Do you think pianoforte would be a wild guess? Concerning the fact that all the symbols and indications written on the arrangement can be possibly played on one. Especially the pedal...

It looks very much like the piano transcription that I played.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 03:35:54 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on June 25, 2007, 03:30:37 PM
It looks very much like the piano transcription that I played.

There you go.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 26, 2007, 04:40:42 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 03:35:54 PM
There you go.  ;)

Well ........ There it is ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 06, 2007, 03:10:14 PM
Krystian Zimerman plays LvB PC #3

1/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfstcHZINYE)

2/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QagnhgnCMuY)

3/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRlJMrYnT4)

4/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YlU-z066Mc)

5/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwvmoKFsjXM)

6/6   (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5AebVt_Tcc)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 06, 2007, 08:08:17 PM
My current listening project is O'Conor's complete Beethoven sonatas.  I really love them all--though some are a bit disappointing next to others.  Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 07, 2007, 04:54:05 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 06, 2007, 08:08:17 PM
My current listening project is O'Conor's complete Beethoven sonatas.  I really love them all--though some are a bit disappointing next to others.  Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

A very tough call, but I'd have to say Op. 110.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on July 07, 2007, 08:47:40 AM
Quote from: D Minor on July 06, 2007, 03:10:14 PM
Krystian Zimerman plays LvB PC #3

1/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfstcHZINYE)

2/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QagnhgnCMuY)

3/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRlJMrYnT4)

4/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YlU-z066Mc)

5/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwvmoKFsjXM)

6/6   (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5AebVt_Tcc)


Thanks! :D :D :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 07, 2007, 11:02:35 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 06, 2007, 08:08:17 PM
Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

Sonato No. 8 In C Minor, Op.13 "Pathetique
Sonato No.14 In C-Sharp Minor, Op.27 No.2 "Moonlight"
Sonata No. 17 In D Minor, op. 31 No. 2 "Tempest"
Sonato No.21 In C Major, Op.53 "Waldstein
Sonato No.23 In F Minor, Op.57 "Appassionata
Sonato No.28 In A Major, Op.101 
Sonato No.29 In B-Flat Major, Op.106 ("Hammerklavier")
Sonato No.30 In E Major, 109 
Sonato No.31 In A-Flat Major, Op.110 
Sonato No.32 In C Minor, Op.111 

Of all these, the Hammer is probably my favorite (thanks to the final movement), but I'm finding hidden treasures in op's 109, 110, and 111 ........  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 07, 2007, 05:10:12 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 06, 2007, 08:08:17 PM
Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

Op. 109 absolutely.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 08, 2007, 01:04:28 AM
Quote from: D Minor on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM

5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?




In the past I referred to Beethoven as a 'Quasi-Baroque Classicist', ie the forms are Classical but the emotion and sentiments to my mind harks back to an earlier time. Even Mozart at times sounds more Romantic than Beethoven to me, and certainly Beethoven's contemporaries like Weber were proto-romanticists in a different world from what Beethoven was doing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 01:34:13 AM
Obviously, you have no clue at all what the (rather vague anyway) terms "baroque", "classical" or "romantic" actually mean. Those have nothing to do with what you perceive as their "emotional" content. Weber and Beethoven are ctually fairly close musically and also "emotionally" in many respects. Beethoven's dynamic treatment and development of ideas expressed through music doesn't "hark" back to anything at all. That actually made him a very "progressive" composer, and that also left a lo of traces in the compositional substance. Which is obviously a completely inaccessible subject for you since you apparently can even read music and understand simple musical parameters.

Yes, I know, you have all Beethoven recordings ever released, and also a Ferrari, but all that doesn't help you with your understanding of these things, obviously. You probably can't even pronounce Beethoven's name properly (no, it doesn't sound like "beetle" and "oven"). What a tragic love you have for that music, completely one-sided. You have never really listened to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 08, 2007, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: M forever on July 08, 2007, 01:34:13 AM
Obviously, you have no clue at all what the (rather vague anyway) terms "baroque", "classical" or "romantic" actually mean. Those have nothing to do with what you perceive as their "emotional" content. Weber and Beethoven are ctually fairly close musically and also "emotionally" in many respects. Beethoven's dynamic treatment and development of ideas expressed through music doesn't "hark" back to anything at all. That actually made him a very "progressive" composer, and that also left a lo of traces in the compositional substance. Which is obviously a completely inaccessible subject for you since you apparently can even read music and understand simple musical parameters.

Yes, I know, you have all Beethoven recordings ever released, and also a Ferrari, but all that doesn't help you with your understanding of these things, obviously. You probably can't even pronounce Beethoven's name properly (no, it doesn't sound like "beetle" and "oven"). What a tragic love you have for that music, completely one-sided. You have never really listened to it.

The above is all absolute nonsense, even the reference to the Ferrari, I made that story up for gullible obnoxious people like yourself. I mentioned nothing about Beethoven's dynamic treatment harking back to anything, I said this on the sentiment and emotional level only. Obviously the language of Beethoven is often quite different, though much of his late period output is heavily influenced by Baroque and even earlier sources. If you think Beethoven and Weber have anything musical in common you must be deaf, in fact Weber was highly critical of Beethoven's music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 10:48:02 AM
That doesn't matter. They were both children of their time, and they have a lot of stylistical elements in common, the melodic structure, the tone of the music, even if thy chose to develop different techniques for their different aims.
But that is something which apparently totally eludes you. It is something that you can only understand if you develop a feeling for our culture which you obviously don't have, a deeper feeling for the idiomatic elements in music. Just like Goethe and Schiller are very different writers with very different styles, yet they have a lot in common - not surprisingly, since they came from the same cultural background (in case you didn't know, those were German writers).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don on July 08, 2007, 10:56:55 AM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on July 08, 2007, 09:09:23 AM
If you think Beethoven and Weber have anything musical in common you must be deaf, in fact Weber was highly critical of Beethoven's music.

Then I must also be deaf.  When I listen to Weber, I often find similarities with Beethoven's music. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 11:11:06 AM
Of course. They spoke the same language, as well as the same musical language, and both of them sound extremely "German", for lack of a better word, in their typical phrase structure, and there is also something plain and matter of fact to the general tone, something which they both have in common very much, and they develop complex statements from those simple elements. That totally mirrors the "feel" of the German language which is fairly plain and actually not that melodic as such, but it develops its melodic context from the very long and complex phrase structures. All that is mirrored very obviously in both Beethoven's and Weber's music, and that of many of their "lesser" contemporaries. Plus both of them tried to be "accessible", understandable, they wanted to be "popular" not necessarily in the modern sense of the word, but in the sense of speaking directly to the people. Which they both did very successful in their different ways, as we know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 08, 2007, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: D Minor on July 07, 2007, 11:02:35 AM
Sonato No. 8 In C Minor, Op.13 "Pathetique" 
Sonato No.14 In C-Sharp Minor, Op.27 No.2 "Moonlight"
Sonata No. 17 In D Minor, op. 31 No. 2 "Tempest"
Sonato No.21 In C Major, Op.53 "Waldstein" 
Sonato No.23 In F Minor, Op.57 "Appassionata" 
Sonato No.28 In A Major, Op.101 
Sonato No.29 In B-Flat Major, Op.106 ("Hammerkiavier")
Sonato No.30 In E-Flat Major, 109 
Sonato No.31 In A-Flat Major, Op.110 
Sonato No.32 In C Minor, Op.111 

Of all these, the Hammer is probably my favorite (thanks to the final movement), but I'm finding hidden treasures in op's 109, 110, and 111 ........  0:)


A fine list.  My only quibble is, I believe the Op.109 is in E, not E-flat (I suppose you want everything as close to D minor as possible).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 08, 2007, 08:37:05 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 08, 2007, 06:27:16 PM
A fine list.  My only quibble is, I believe the Op.109 is in E, not E-flat

My God ........ how utterly reckless of me ........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 08, 2007, 08:37:57 PM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 08, 2007, 06:27:16 PM
(I suppose you want everything as close to D minor as possible).

YES!   :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on July 06, 2007, 08:08:17 PM
Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

When Hélène Grimaud is making love to Op.109, that's my favorite sonata. Otherwise, Op.110...and I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard (Mom used to play it for me).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 09, 2007, 09:28:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
When Hélène Grimaud is making love to Op.109, that's my favorite sonata. Otherwise, Op.110...and I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard (Mom used to play it for me).

Sarge

Nothing to be ashamed of--famous pieces are famous for a reason. 

I like the Pastoral because I've worked at it a few times--or maybe I've worked at it a few times because I like it.  Every movement's a jewel.

I've also got an attachment to the quirky No.18.  Quite a scherzo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on July 09, 2007, 09:32:14 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard.

Sarge

Hey, here at this end it's exactly the same. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 09, 2007, 06:35:03 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2007, 08:51:42 AM
When Hélène Grimaud is making love to Op.109, that's my favorite sonata. Otherwise, Op.110...and I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard (Mom used to play it for me).

Sarge

Who do you like in Op. 110?

I love the comment about your Mom.  :)

I still have a very strong preference for the Appassionata sonata. The first and only time I heard it live, was in a small hall that literally felt like it was shaking during certain passages.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 11, 2007, 03:24:57 AM
Quote from: George on July 09, 2007, 06:35:03 PM
I still have a very strong preference for the Appassionata sonata. The first and only time I heard it live, was in a small hall that literally felt like it was shaking during certain passages.

The Appassionata certainly can be an amazing experience .........

     Gilels Appassionata  mvt 1    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joINnT_ncVc)

     Rubinstein Appassionata mvt. 1      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6qO1e2WmbA)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 12, 2007, 03:57:28 PM
     Arrau Appassionata mvt 1      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klwk1I-m1bk)


     Arrau Appassionata mvt 2      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEp7xnfHBH8)


     Arrau Appassionata mvt 3      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNYYwjWBR7E)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 12, 2007, 08:23:45 PM
Listening this time around, I'm developing some new faves--mainly because I've gotten bored of the old faves.

New fave 1: No.3 in C, Op.2/3:

What's this?  Some chromatic third relationships?  A sudden A-flat chord out of nowhere in the coda of the first movement (yes, I know, it's a deceptive cadence in the minor mode--still out of nowhere)?  E major for the second (with a flash of sudden C tonality towards the end?)

But the last two movements are the jewels, with a Bach invention-esque scherzo followed by a really fun rondo. 

New fave 2: No.6 in F, Op.10/2:

This is just fun.  There's a bee-bopping closing theme in the first movement, a Chopin-esque second in the parallel minor, and finally another Bach invention-esque Presto to close it.

New fave 3: No.7 in D, Op.10/3

The first movement is really fun from the start, with a complete organic feel borne of its four note motive.  It's in a very weird sonata-form, that seems to have one or two themes too many, balanced with a brief development, and a driving coda.

Second movement is gorgeously melodramatic.

Third movement is adequate, but the a fourth is killer rondo with a (constantly mutating) theme that is best described as an invitation to dance.

I'm still going through the early sonatas.  And the No.12 never did a lot for me--though I do like the II and IV movements.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 07:54:30 AM
Quote from: capod'uovoHe composed almost romantic symphonies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on July 15, 2007, 07:17:13 AM
How would Beethoven's keyboard music sound on fortepiano?  :)

Check some clips that I have uploaded of Paul Komen's recordings here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.msg56363.html#msg56363).

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 17, 2007, 04:24:15 AM
Quote from: Que on July 15, 2007, 07:17:13 AM
How would Beethoven's keyboard music sound on fortepiano?  :)

Check some clips that I have uploaded of Paul Komen's recordings here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.msg56363.html#msg56363).

Q

Waldstein sounds very nice .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 19, 2007, 04:54:35 PM
Quote from: D Minor on June 01, 2007, 04:26:54 PM
Yeah, most of us need a collective C Major Mass shot in the arm: a very often neglected masterpiece.

This bad boy is a bargain:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/71/74/820c024128a09b8bbaf2a010.L.jpg)

I've got that CD. I'm listening to it these days, particularly focusing on the Gloria. Lately I'm reconciling with Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on July 19, 2007, 07:29:50 PM
Quote from: Scriptavolant on July 19, 2007, 04:54:35 PM
I've got that CD. I'm listening to it these days, particularly focusing on the Gloria. Lately I'm reconciling with Beethoven.

What a horrible portrait of the great LvB...God why don't they stick with the "Heroic" one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2007, 12:10:57 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 19, 2007, 07:29:50 PM
What a horrible portrait of the great LvB...God why don't they stick with the "Heroic" one.

But what if that was how Beethoven actually looked?!  For all we know, that could be the most accurate portrait of LvB ever produced ..........  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 20, 2007, 01:20:08 PM
It is known that Ludwig Van wasn't an Adonis really. I think that that portrait is realistical. Furthermore he was only 1,60 m (5 feet 3 inches) tall.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 20, 2007, 06:33:31 PM
Quote from: D Minor on July 20, 2007, 12:10:57 PM
But what if that was how Beethoven actually looked?!  For all we know, that could be the most accurate portrait of LvB ever produced ..........  :o

As the most accurate portait of Beethoven is usually considered Klein's sculpture based on the life mask he made of his face in 1812.

(http://www.art-bin.com/bilder/mask.jpg)(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms_upload/media/106/id3610.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 20, 2007, 06:39:20 PM

Wow! Backhaus does look a lot like Beethoven: 



(http://www.art-bin.com/bilder/mask.jpg)(http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=67760&rendTypeId=4)(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IP3T.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)(http://www.art-bin.com/bilder/mask.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on July 24, 2007, 04:21:10 PM
Actually, George, I think you look a bit like Beethoven too!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 05:15:26 PM
Quote from: Maciek on July 24, 2007, 04:21:10 PM
Actually, George, I think you look a bit like Beethoven too!

0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 05:18:54 PM
I feel a little strange starring at beethovens bust.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 05:20:46 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on July 24, 2007, 10:34:41 PM
Quote from: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 05:18:54 PM
I feel a little strange starring at beethovens bust.

That's a bit messed up  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 25, 2007, 06:09:31 AM
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 24, 2007, 10:34:41 PM
That's a bit messed up  ;D

That's Mozart.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 25, 2007, 11:55:46 AM
 CLICK HERE FOR: Menuhin performing LvB's Violin Concerto (w/Colin Davis) -- 1st movement.   (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z5a-tLV7IY)

1962 Stereo (B/W)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/416WRFTPPJL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on July 26, 2007, 01:58:56 AM
Quote from: George on July 25, 2007, 06:09:31 AM
That's Mozart.

Very true rofl ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 01, 2007, 02:33:02 PM
 LvB VC performed by Joshua Bell  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ytfIArGt4&mode=related&search=)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 01, 2007, 05:03:00 PM
Quote from: D Minor on August 01, 2007, 02:33:02 PM
LvB VC performed by Joshua Bell  (http://bellbites.com)

NOOOOOO!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 01, 2007, 05:04:48 PM
One consistent effect the Elgarwocky thread has on me, especially with these weird notions that Elgar's orchestration is the wonder of the West, is . . . I want to listen to Beethoven more  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on August 01, 2007, 08:22:38 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2007, 05:04:48 PM
One consistent effect the Elgarwocky thread has on me, especially with these weird notions that Elgar's orchestration is the wonder of the West, is . . . I want to listen to Beethoven more  8)

He does make me curious about Elgar's works--but, as he's a minor composer, I'm afraid I won't be able to listen to him until bigger names are out of the way.

I'm partial to the Gardiner cycle of the Beethoven symphonies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 02, 2007, 03:40:14 AM
Quote from: scottscheule on August 01, 2007, 08:22:38 PM
--but, as he's a minor composer, I'm afraid I won't be able to listen to him until bigger names are out of the way.

I like your sense of humor!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 02, 2007, 03:42:30 AM
Too bad corkin' Rod took off in a huff; he'd have plenty of sound-files to link of all the WoO's we need to wade through before we get to such also-rans as Elgar   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 06, 2007, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2007, 05:04:48 PM
One consistent effect the Elgarwocky thread has on me, especially with these weird notions that Elgar's orchestration is the wonder of the West, is . . . I want to listen to Beethoven more  8)

Karl, my sentiments exactly.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,72.msg65316.html#msg65316)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 06, 2007, 03:15:58 PM
 Wilhelm Kempff performing LvB's Tempest Finale in D Minor  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfjD-DQ5REk)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 06, 2007, 04:55:54 PM
Quote from: D Minor on August 06, 2007, 03:15:58 PM
Wilhelm Kempff performing LvB's Tempest Finale in D Minor  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfjD-DQ5REk)

Thanks for this!

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 07, 2007, 09:54:50 AM
Quote from: George on August 06, 2007, 04:55:54 PM
Thanks for this!

8)

One of my favorite LvB finales!  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 07, 2007, 09:55:32 AM
This is a week old ...... and I'm sure it is infringing on someone's copyright, so get it while it's hot.

This symphony (and this performance) induce goosebumps.  Electrifying.

And notice the horseshit orchestration ...... Beethoven could have learned from Elgar.

     LvB 7 Carlos Kleiber  (1st mvt pt. 1)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dut8RKaaY5E)

     2/4 (1st mvt pt. 2)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0cJpbuiyn8&mode=related&search=)

     3/4 (Presto)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8hKrmyMgsQ&mode=related&search=)

     4/4 (finale)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqd8N_khDPg&mode=related&search=)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DetUudslukkelige on August 07, 2007, 04:34:05 PM
Quote from: D Minor on August 07, 2007, 09:55:32 AM
And notice the horseshit orchestration ...... Beethoven could have learned from Elgar.

And yet for some reason, I'm actually not unhappy that he didn't. :P Seriously, though, I think that video is enough to clear up any doubts that Beethoven was a good orchestrator. Or, at least, I don't know why it shouldn't. But while we're on the subject, has anyone heard Mahler's 1895 re-orchestration of Beethoven's 9th? Any opinions? I'm intrigued by the idea, and if I could choose one composer to do it, Mahler would be a good candidate, but I would like to hear what others think about it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 07, 2007, 04:48:57 PM
Quote from: DetUudslukkelige on August 07, 2007, 04:34:05 PM
And yet for some reason, I'm actually not unhappy that he didn't. :P Seriously, though, I think that video is enough to clear up any doubts that Beethoven was a good orchestrator. Or, at least, I don't know why it shouldn't. But while we're on the subject, has anyone heard Mahler's 1895 re-orchestration of Beethoven's 9th? Any opinions? I'm intrigued by the idea, and if I could choose one composer to do it, Mahler would be a good candidate, but I would like to hear what others think about it.

I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. I gather Mahler used to work for them.

I like my Beethoven lean and mean. This is anything but that. Every part is doubled, tripled, quadrupled, whatever. It reeks of excess, IMO.

If you like music (any music) performed in Late Romantic, totally OTT style, this is a good launching off point. I wonder how Beethoven would have handled the tubas?   :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on August 07, 2007, 07:57:32 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 07, 2007, 04:48:57 PM
I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. I gather Mahler used to work for them.

I like my Beethoven lean and mean. This is anything but that. Every part is doubled, tripled, quadrupled, whatever. It reeks of excess, IMO.

If you like music (any music) performed in Late Romantic, totally OTT style, this is a good launching off point. I wonder how Beethoven would have handled the tubas?   :)

8)

I heard Slatkin do the Mahler 'Eroica' and it didn't do much for me.  It lost some of its crispness.  But I prefer keeping things as close to the composer's intentions as possible.

Why are all of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas so damn good?  My recent discovery has been the second movement of the Op.111, a fascinating theme and variations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on August 07, 2007, 08:07:48 PM
Quote from: D Minor on August 07, 2007, 09:54:50 AM
One of my favorite LvB finales!  0:)

Right under the 7th  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on August 07, 2007, 08:09:28 PM
Quote from: D Minor on August 07, 2007, 09:55:32 AM
This is a week old ...... and I'm sure it is infringing on someone's copyright, so get it while it's hot.

This symphony (and this performance) induce goosebumps.  Electrifying.

And notice the horseshit orchestration ...... Beethoven could have learned from Elgar.

     LvB 7 Carlos Kleiber  (1st mvt pt. 1)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dut8RKaaY5E)

     2/4 (1st mvt pt. 2)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0cJpbuiyn8&mode=related&search=)

     3/4 (Presto)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8hKrmyMgsQ&mode=related&search=)

     4/4 (finale)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqd8N_khDPg&mode=related&search=)



He is either having fun, or a seizure!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 08:57:31 AM
Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 1st movt - Richter  http://www.youtube.com/v/ulvJU85U_gA

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 09:05:40 AM
Well, the above flash insert didn't seem to work, so click here (yeah, the old fashioned way) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvJU85U_gA)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 09:12:32 AM
     Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 2nd mvt Part 1-Richter      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m68R7MezFcU)

http://www.youtube.com/v/m68R7MezFcU
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 09:15:20 AM
     Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 2nd mvt Part 2-Richter       (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBZqAlAVC8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/zIBZqAlAVC8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: bhodges on August 15, 2007, 09:37:21 AM
Quote from: D Minor on August 15, 2007, 08:57:31 AM
Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 1st movt - Richter  http://www.youtube.com/v/ulvJU85U_gA



Hooray, you got it to work! :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: bhodges on August 15, 2007, 09:37:21 AM
Hooray, you got it to work! :D

--Bruce

Yes, thanks!  :D

(((NB: it does take about 15 seconds for the YOUTUBE image to load ..... )))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 06:58:37 PM
Released on 8/14/2007

Richter The Master Vol 4 - Beethoven

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998006.jpg)

1.  Sonata for Piano no 18 in E flat major, Op. 31 no 3 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1802; Vienna, Austria
   


2.  Rondo for Piano in C major, Op. 51 no 1 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: ?1797; Vienna, Austria
   


3.  Rondo for Piano in G major, Op. 51 no 2 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: ?1798; Vienna, Austria
   


4.  Sonata for Piano no 28 in A major, Op. 101 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1816; Vienna, Austria
   


5.  Trio for Piano and Strings no 7 in B flat major, Op. 97 "Archduke" by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano), Mikhail Kopelman (Violin), Valentin Berlinsky (Cello)
Period: Classical
Written: 1810-1811; Vienna, Austria
   


6.  Quintet for Piano, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon and Horn in E flat major, Op. 16 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Moragues Woodwind Quintet members
Period: Classical
Written: 1796; Vienna, Austria
   

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 06:59:37 PM
Richter, baby!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 07:01:03 PM
Oooooo!!!!!!!  :o

(thanks for the heads up)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 07:06:25 PM
Quote from: George on August 16, 2007, 07:01:03 PM
Oooooo!!!!!!!  :o

(thanks for the heads up)

Richter, baby!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 07:15:05 PM
Hold on, now - One thing I just noticed, by looking at Trovar, it seems that the Beethoven that will soon be released on Decca is likely to be recordings that have been previously offered on Philips, which means that these are from late in his career.  :-\ I have the Beethoven sonatas from the Master set released previously and I find that they lack the youthful spark and drive found in Richter's earlier recordings. The recordings in the yellow "Master" set above are likely to be from 1986 (Rondos and Op. 101) and 1992 (Op. 31/3, Trio, and Quintet) so I expect it will be much of the same.  :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 07:19:07 PM
This looks like an interesting release (released 8/14/2007)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/173926.jpg)

1.  Symphony no 38 in D major, K 504 "Prague" by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1786; Vienna, Austria
   


2.  Symphony no 2 in D major, Op. 36 by Ludwig van Beethoven

Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1801-1802; Vienna, Austria
   


3.  Symphony no 3 in E flat major, Op. 55 "Eroica" by Ludwig van Beethoven

Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1803; Vienna, Austria
   


4.  Leonore Overture no 3 in C major, Op. 72a by Ludwig van Beethoven

Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1805-1806; Vienna, Austria    


5.  Symphony no 4 in E flat major, WAB 104 "Romantic" by Anton Bruckner

Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Romantic
Written: Vienna, Austria

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on August 16, 2007, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: George on August 16, 2007, 07:15:05 PM
Hold on, now - One thing I just noticed, by looking at Trovar, it seems that the Beethoven that will soon be released on Decca is likely to be recordings that have been previously offered on Philips, which means that these are from late in his career.  :-\ I have the Beethoven sonatas from the Master set released previously and I find that they lack the youthful spark and drive found in Richter's earlier recordings. The recordings in the yellow "Master" set above are likely to be from 1986 (Rondos and Op. 101) and 1992 (Op. 31/3, Trio, and Quintet) so I expect it will be much of the same.  :-[
I just checked. They are.

However, there's also a set with two Haydn sonatas (#24 & #52) and Beethoven's opp 14/1 (1963), 22 (1963), 26 (1966) & 90 (1965) which is much more promising.

The other issue this month is great news for Richter/Schubert fans (hello me!) in the form of a 1966 D575, a 1979 D840 and a 1989 D894.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 07:43:05 PM
Quote from: edward on August 16, 2007, 07:25:11 PM
I just checked. They are.

:-[

Quote
However, there's also a set with two Haydn sonatas (#24 & #52) and Beethoven's opp 14/1 (1963), 22 (1963), 26 (1966) & 90 (1965) which is much more promising.

A set in the Master Series? That sounds MUCH better.

Quote
The other issue this month is great news for Richter/Schubert fans (hello me!) in the form of a 1966 D575, a 1979 D840 and a 1989 D894.

Richter's Schubert is superb! Which label is that on? I have heard the original recordings of those Schubert CDs on Philips and they are wonderful.  Where'd you get your info anyway?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: not edward on August 16, 2007, 07:44:41 PM
Quote from: George on August 16, 2007, 07:43:05 PM
A set in the Master Series? That sounds MUCH better.
Yep. It's volume 6. Or 4. Whichever the unappealing one isn't, anyway.
Quote from: George on August 16, 2007, 07:43:05 PM
Richter's Schubert is superb! Which label is that on? I have heard the original recordings of those Schubert CDs on Philips and they are wonderful.  Where'd you get your info anyway?
That's volume 5 in the Master Series.

As for the info, a mixture of MDT and trovar.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: edward on August 16, 2007, 07:44:41 PM
Yep. It's volume 6. Or 4. Whichever the unappealing one isn't, anyway.That's volume 5 in the Master Series.

As for the info, a mixture of MDT and trovar.

Yes, it looks like they were released in the states on Tuesday. I need to visit my local shop.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 08:07:08 PM
Richter, The Master VOL 6 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998078.jpg) (released 8/14/09) includes:

1.  Sonata for Keyboard no 39 in D major, H 16 no 24 by Franz Joseph Haydn
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

2.  Sonata for Keyboard no 62 in E flat major, H 16 no 52 by Franz Joseph Haydn
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

3.  Sonata for Piano no 3 in D minor,  J 206/Op. 49 by Carl Maria von Weber
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

4.  Sonata for Piano no 9 in E major, Op. 14 no 1 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

5.  Sonata for Piano no 11 in B flat major, Op. 22 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

6.  Sonata for Piano no 12 in A flat major, Op. 26 "Funeral March" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

7.  Sonata for Piano no 27 in E minor, Op. 90 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 08:11:41 PM
Uchida's Hammerklavier also releases this week:  (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998148.jpg)

1.  Sonata for Piano no 28 in A major, Op. 101 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Mitsuko Uchida (Piano)

2.  Sonata for Piano no 29 in B flat major, Op. 106 "Hammerklavier" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Mitsuko Uchida (Piano)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 17, 2007, 05:13:36 AM
Helene Grimaud playing LvB PC 4 mvt 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ic1k7V-w-Xg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2007, 02:54:35 PM
LvB String Quartet op. 131 pt. 1 (Orfeo String Quartet: Grimal / Bonanni / Berthaud / Salque)

http://www.youtube.com/v/FXo5TLnWzh8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2007, 05:19:10 PM
LvB Grosse Fuge pt. 1 Alban Berg Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/n68WBx91nQE
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2007, 05:20:23 PM
LvB Grosse Fuge pt. 2 Alban Berg Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/bhM6Vrd8CP4
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 03:20:29 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 1)
Hagen Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/v1Jsc8Sxnu4
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 03:21:30 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 2)
Hagen Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/5n6IvgIleo8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 03:22:08 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 3)
Hagen Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/DYvIXbop3pA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 03:23:07 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 4)
Hagen Quartet

:D

http://www.youtube.com/v/ka7sWEc6mZ0&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 28, 2007, 03:25:43 AM
HvK conducting LvB's 9th Symphony in d minor, op. 125 (mvts 1 and 2)

http://www.youtube.com/v/O2AEaQJuKDY
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 28, 2007, 04:56:53 AM
An Emperor is being released today ........

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998056.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 29, 2007, 03:10:49 AM
 Click here for a thread on how Beethoven's doctor murdered him.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3150.0.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 09:24:53 AM
Quote from: D Minor on August 29, 2007, 03:10:49 AM
Click here for a thread on how Beethoven's doctor murdered him.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3150.0.html)

Wow, they had some fantastic remedies back then: lead, arsenic and mercury!
I also read that if Beethoven lived in our era, his deafness could have been cured, or at least lessened.

ZB
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 31, 2007, 08:33:57 AM
What do you get when you combine the two great concepts of Accordion + LvB's Rage Over a Lost Penny?

http://www.youtube.com/v/SS7TeLB0q5E
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 31, 2007, 08:37:18 AM
Quote from: D Minor on August 31, 2007, 08:33:57 AM
What do you get when you combine the two great concepts of Accordion + LvB's Rage Over a Lost Penny?

Rage Over a Lost Piano?  ;D



Seriously, thanks for that!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on September 02, 2007, 03:00:58 AM
100% recommend Bernstein's Ode to Freedom recorded in Berlin, 1989...after the fall of the wall. The intensity of the final chorus is exhilariting...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 03, 2007, 07:24:12 AM
Quote from: George on August 31, 2007, 08:37:18 AM
Rage Over a Lost Piano?  ;D


If I lost an entire piano, I'd be pissed too. ;D  It's like I know I have to clean my apartment, but this is ridiculous... :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 03, 2007, 08:20:41 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 03, 2007, 07:24:12 AM

If I lost an entire piano, I'd be pissed too. ;D  It's like I know I have to clean my apartment, but this is ridiculous... :D

;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 05, 2007, 06:39:29 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 03, 2007, 07:24:12 AM

If I lost an entire piano, I'd be pissed too. ;D  It's like I know I have to clean my apartment, but this is ridiculous... :D

I lost my cat once (who was asleep inside my piano) .........  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 05, 2007, 06:40:46 AM
The Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen with Paavo Järvi live in Minato Mirai, Yokohama, Japan on May 26th 2006. Beethoven Symphony No.3 (Eroica), 1st Movement - Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/9XL2ha18i5w

Eroica mvt 1 pt 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSrb6iEFNS8

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2007, 03:51:59 PM
I'm surprised, I thought that Jarvi liked slow, but this is fairly zippy for him, it's pretty good.  Not as fiery as I would like though, but I enjoyed it, thanks D. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 03:11:57 AM
On a more serious note:  Family Guy disco dance to LvB 5

http://www.youtube.com/v/lp_oa4Fztfg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 03:16:29 AM
Emperor played by Glenn Gould

1/4
http://www.youtube.com/v/yftk_cnbwKQ

2/4
http://www.youtube.com/v/PrkHtqjXpB0&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 11:14:39 AM
Two new LvB complete symphony sets will be released tomorrow (9/11)

Beethoven: Symphonies / Mackerras, Et Al
Release Date: 09/11/2007   Label: Hyperion   Catalog: 44301   Number of Discs: 5
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Janice Watson,  Catherine Wyn-Rogers,  Stuart Skelton,  Detlef Roth
Conductor:  Sir Charles Mackerras
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Scottish Chamber Orchestra,  Philharmonia Orchestra,  Edinburgh Festival Chorus

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/999693.jpg)


Beethoven: The Nine Symphonies / Mikhail Pletnev, Et Al
Release Date: 09/11/2007   Label: Deutsche Grammophon   Catalog: 000966502   Number of Discs: 5
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Angela Denoke,  Marianna Tarasova,  Endrik Wottrich,  Matthias Goerne
Conductor:  Mikhail Pletnev
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Russian National Orchestra,  Moscow Chamber Chorus

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2104143.jpg)

On sale for $54.99 at Archiv Music ! ! ! ! !
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:25:25 AM
That's not the only two complete sets this year, is it!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 11:39:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 11:25:25 AM
That's not the only two complete sets this year, is it!  8)

LvB complete symphony cycles are such a rare treat that it seems to be that infrequent .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on September 10, 2007, 10:04:43 PM
Just a stupid question from a Beethoven lover: do we need yet another set of LvB's symphonies when there are so many composers (dead or alive) out there who would deserve better?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: mahlertitan on September 10, 2007, 10:35:42 PM
interestingly, unlike other composers (e.g. Mahler, Bruckner) i am very satisfied with just ONE Beethoven cycle, i mean, what else is there to listen to?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 11, 2007, 03:14:39 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2007, 10:04:43 PM
Just a stupid question from a Beethoven lover: do we need yet another set of LvB's symphonies when there are so many composers (dead or alive) out there who would deserve better?

Apparently, there is an endless list of conductors who feel that their novel, original interpretations of LvB's 9 symphonies will substantially contribute to the completely saturated LvB symphonic discography .........  I assume that these conductors feel the need to fill a void where none exists ......... Or to "prove" themselves ......... In any case, these symphony cycles sell well, and on that basis alone, they will continue to be churned out like baby rabbits .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2007, 03:39:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2007, 10:04:43 PM
Just a stupid question from a Beethoven lover: do we need yet another set of LvB's symphonies when there are so many composers (dead or alive) out there who would deserve better?

Beethoven pays the bills, let's put it that way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 21, 2007, 04:46:36 PM
LvB 6 + HvK (35 min version):

http://www.youtube.com/v/HZGb-Kjy0S0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: premont on September 23, 2007, 07:07:39 AM
Quote from: D Minor on September 11, 2007, 03:14:39 AM
Apparently, there is an endless list of conductors who feel that their novel, original interpretations of LvB's 9 symphonies will substantially contribute to the completely saturated LvB symphonic discography .........  I assume that these conductors feel the need to fill a void where none exists ......... Or to "prove" themselves ......... In any case, these symphony cycles sell well, and on that basis alone, they will continue to be churned out like baby rabbits .........

We might in all probability easily be able to overcome the problems of life without Pletnev´s LvB set. But I think Mackerras set will turn out to be one of the most rewarding sets for years, and I am certainly eager to acquire it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 07:12:09 AM
Quote from: premont on September 23, 2007, 07:07:39 AM
We might in all probability easily be able to overcome the problems of life without Pletnev´s LvB set. But I think Mackerras set will turn out to be one of the most rewarding sets for years, and I am certainly eager to acquire it.


As you should be. It is one of the best cycles of recent years and a joy to listen to. Since I have little or no interest in "historic" recordings, I am always delighted when modern recording comes along that reaches high standards. This one does, IMO.  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings - Hamburg SO / Springer - Tchaikovsky Serenade in C for Strings Op 48 2nd mvmt - 02 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hamburg+so/track/tchaikovsky+serenade+in+c+for+strings+op+48+2nd+mvmt)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 07:16:11 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 07:12:09 AM

As you should be. It is one of the best cycles of recent years and a joy to listen to. Since I have little or no interest in "historic" recordings, I am always delighted when modern recording comes along that reaches high standards. This one does, IMO.  :)



Perhaps I should give my set another listen, but I find Mackerras too "light."  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 23, 2007, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: George on September 23, 2007, 07:16:11 AM
Perhaps I should give my set another listen, but I find Mackerras too "light."  :-\

For a modern set, have you tried Barenboim?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 07:56:55 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 23, 2007, 07:21:14 AM
For a modern set, have you tried Barenboim?

Oh yeah, he's excellent.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 23, 2007, 08:02:24 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 07:12:09 AM

As you should be. It is one of the best cycles of recent years and a joy to listen to. Since I have little or no interest in "historic" recordings, I am always delighted when modern recording comes along that reaches high standards. This one does, IMO.  :)

Gurn,

Is this the new Mackerras set on Hyperion you're referring to? Is it radically different than his earlier EMI set?



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on September 23, 2007, 08:13:22 AM
The new Mackerras cycle is (perhaps unsurprisingly for some) highly praised by BBC Music magazine. The only reservation voiced by reviewer, Michael Tanner, was that there is a marked difference between the sound of the first eight symphonies and the ninth. To quote him: 'No doubt the contrast between the sometimes rasping austerity of the previous symphonies and the glow of the Ninth was intentional, but I could have done with more of the latter in, say, the acrid first movement of the Eroica.' He concludes by saying: 'I find Haitink extraordinarily impressive, while Zinman and Mackerras have a great deal in common ... I would suggest both Haitink and this new set, or Zinman's.' To me, that's a clear signal that I needn't bother with the new Mackerras recordings, as I have the Haitink, and recently acquired the Zinman cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: premont on September 23, 2007, 08:27:28 AM
A comparation between Zinman and the old Mackerras EMI set (which at the moment is my all favoured version - HIP or not HIP) turns clearly out in favour of Mackerras, so I am going to acquire the second Mackerras set too. My question is now : Do I need the Haitink (I suppose you are talking about the live set vith LSO), what are the virues of this set comparared to e.g. Zinman?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on September 23, 2007, 08:36:11 AM
Quote from: premont on September 23, 2007, 08:27:28 AM
My question is now : Do I need the Haitink (I suppose you are talking about the live set vith LSO), what are the virues of this set comparared to e.g. Zinman?

Yes, I mean the recent(ish) LSO Live cycle. Its strengths lie in its solid conception (Zinman can get a little 'flaky' and 'tricksy' in places), its excellent sound (even on plain old CD, and despite the Barbican's notoriously dry acoustic), and its tempi choices that mirror those of the old Mackerras set on EMI. Its only weakness, IMO, is the Sixth, which sounds uninvolving and slightly hurried.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: premont on September 23, 2007, 08:46:39 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 23, 2007, 08:36:11 AM
Yes, I mean the recent(ish) LSO Live cycle. Its strengths lie in its solid conception (Zinman can get a little 'flaky' and 'tricksy' in places), its excellent sound (even on plain old CD, and despite the Barbican's notoriously dry acoustic), and its tempi choices that mirror those of the old Mackerras set on EMI.
Thanks, I shall consider the purchase of it.

Quote from: Mark on September 23, 2007, 08:36:11 AMIts only weakness, IMO, is the Sixth, which sounds uninvolving and slightly hurried.
I think this is a common problem - but I grew up with Klemperers Philharmonia and Vienna Symphony Orchester Pastorales.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 23, 2007, 10:05:17 AM
Quote from: premont on September 23, 2007, 07:07:39 AM
We might in all probability easily be able to overcome the problems of life without Pletnev´s LvB set. But I think Mackerras set will turn out to be one of the most rewarding sets for years, and I am certainly eager to acquire it.

Hurwitz had mostly very high praise for the 2007 Mackerras LvB set, giving it a 9/8.  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11194)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 23, 2007, 10:12:43 AM
Quote from: donwyn on September 23, 2007, 08:02:24 AM
Gurn,

Is this the new Mackerras set on Hyperion you're referring to? Is it radically different than his earlier EMI set?

Per Hurwitz, although the Hyperion set is not "radically" better, it is "audibly superior to Mackerras' previous (and very good) effort on EMI, with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 10:14:50 AM
Quote from: donwyn on September 23, 2007, 08:02:24 AM
Gurn,

Is this the new Mackerras set on Hyperion you're referring to? Is it radically different than his earlier EMI set?





No, I was talking about the Royal Liverpool set (Classics for Pleasure). I haven't heard the new one yet... :(

8)

----------------
Now playing: Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker/Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 145 Overture #12 in D - 01 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hamburger+symphoniker/track/op+145+overture+%2312+in+d)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 10:20:04 AM
Quote from: George on September 23, 2007, 07:16:11 AM
Perhaps I should give my set another listen, but I find Mackerras too "light."  :-\

Nothing personal, but I have always hated that adjective. "Light" as opposed to what? Beethoven isn't Mahler, after all. Every piece is in place and played as it should be. Since Beethoven wrote for an orchestra of 50-60 players, and they weren't even using modern instruments with their fullness of sound, then "lightness" would have been the order of the day. That "heaviness" is exactly what turns me off to post-Romantic "historical" recordings. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker/Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 145 Overture #12 in D - 01 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hamburger+symphoniker/track/op+145+overture+%2312+in+d)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Novi on September 23, 2007, 11:21:05 AM
Quote from: Mark on September 23, 2007, 08:13:22 AM
The new Mackerras cycle is (perhaps unsurprisingly for some) highly praised by BBC Music magazine. The only reservation voiced by reviewer, Michael Tanner, was that there is a marked difference between the sound of the first eight symphonies and the ninth. To quote him: 'No doubt the contrast between the sometimes rasping austerity of the previous symphonies and the glow of the Ninth was intentional, but I could have done with more of the latter in, say, the acrid first movement of the Eroica.'

It was also a different orchestra. The first eight were with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, the 9th with the Philharmonia. Perhaps the 'austerity' had something to do with ensemble size ???.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on September 23, 2007, 11:45:04 AM
Quote from: Novitiate on September 23, 2007, 11:21:05 AM
It was also a different orchestra. The first eight were with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, the 9th with the Philharmonia. Perhaps the 'austerity' had something to do with ensemble size ???.


I think that's suggested elsewhere in the review.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 04:00:18 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 10:20:04 AM
Nothing personal, but I have always hated that adjective. "Light" as opposed to what?

Thick, I guess. I was mostly referring to the orchestral texture.  :-\

Quote
Beethoven isn't Mahler, after all. Every piece is in place and played as it should be. Since Beethoven wrote for an orchestra of 50-60 players, and they weren't even using modern instruments with their fullness of sound, then "lightness" would have been the order of the day.

I don't disagree with this point, though I must say that I am very happy to be living the 21st century and have so many interpretations at my fingertips.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 04:19:47 PM
Quote from: George on September 23, 2007, 04:00:18 PM
Thick, I guess. I was mostly referring to the orchestral texture.  :-\

I don't disagree with this point, though I must say that I am very happy to be living the 21st century and have so many interpretations at my fingertips.  :)

Thought you might be referring to texture. It's a hard reconciliation between thick and transparent... ;)  For me, though, modern interpretations that have the clarity of a large chamber orchestra, with the result that I can actually hear the individual parts are the way to go. If he wrote for "2 flutes", then 4 isn't necessarily better, or necessary at all if all other parts are kept to appropriate sizes.

I agree with the second part of your post, just pointing out the irony that in the 21st century the style you are championing has been largely left behind... :D

8)
----------------
Now playing: Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 032 Symphony #3 in d 1st mvmt - Adagio molto - Allegro non troppo, con energia
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 04:19:47 PM
Thought you might be referring to texture. It's a hard reconciliation between thick and transparent... ;)  For me, though, modern interpretations that have the clarity of a large chamber orchestra, with the result that I can actually hear the individual parts are the way to go. If he wrote for "2 flutes", then 4 isn't necessarily better, or necessary at all if all other parts are kept to appropriate sizes.



In theory, I agree. But after hearing the small sound of the recent Weil recording *ducks punches from Que*, I went running back to Szell. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 04:45:09 PM
Quote from: George on September 23, 2007, 04:22:37 PM
In theory, I agree. But after hearing the small sound of the recent Weil recording *ducks punches from Que*, I went running back to Szell. 

And that's fine for you. I certainly don't care to convert you. But for me, Weil et al are exactly what I want. As you say, lots of choices. But Big Band Beethoven, despite my liking for exceptionally well-played performances, just can't nudge aside smaller ensembles, period instrument of not. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 032 Symphony #3 in d 4th mvmt - Rondo: Allegro agitato
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 01:08:30 PM
Two (2) recordings of LvB's VC released today.

Release no. 1


LvB / Proko Violin Concerti

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/175975.jpg)

Release Date: 09/25/2007
Label:  Cembal D'amour   Catalog #: 126   
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven,  Sergei Prokofiev
Performer:  Berl Senofsky
Conductor:  Pierre Monteux,  Leopold Stokowski
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Boston Symphony Orchestra,  American Symphony Orchestra
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 01:09:24 PM
Release no. 2

Beethoven: Violin Concerto, "kreutzer" Sonata / Repin / Muti / Argerich / VPO

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1002419.jpg)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 01:10:15 PM
Released Today:

Beethoven: The Piano Sonatas Vol 5 / András Schiff

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1002446.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 01:12:29 PM
DVD releases today (previously only on CD  :o  :o):

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/174881.jpg)


PROMETHEUS - MUSICAL VARIATIONS ON A MYTH
A film by Christopher Swann
Ludwig van BEETHOVEN: The Creatures Of Prometheus: Excerpts from the Ballet Music
Franz LISZT: Prometheus - Symphonic Poem
Alexander SCRIABIN: Prométhée - Le Poème Du Feu
Luigi NONO: Hölderlin from Prometeo
Martha Argerich (piano)
Berliner Philharmonic Orchestra, Claudio Abbado

Swann's film based on a 1993 televised concert from Berlin's Philharmonic Hall appears this month on Arthaus. Until now available only as an audio CD on Sony Classical, this concert includes footage of the legendary pianist Martha Argerich performing Scriabin's Prometheus - The Poem of Fire: an indispensable addition to any collection.

The program features music by Beethoven, Liszt, Scriabin and Nono based on the Greek legend of Prometheus: "Ingenious ... A hugely stimulating, thoughtfully planned production." (Gramophone on the CD release). The four works could not be more diverse in style and conception, representing highly different approaches: from Prometheus as bringer of plague and destruction to the punished Prometheus chained to a rock. In this film, Christopher Swann stresses a visual approach to this variety of ideas, using a number of modern film techniques to underscore and illustrate the musical presentation.
Performances by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra under Claudio Abbado are first-rate, although it is the presence of Argerich that will make this DVD an obligatory purchase.  


"The disc's real tour de force - both sonically and musically - is Scriabin's Promethean effusion, his Poem of Fire. The very opening chord tells all, a tensely held pensive and frightening augury and a fitting prelude to everything that follows. ... Abbado serves as master of ceremonies, Argerich as a crazed high priestess, her delirious, delicate and unpredictable solo weaving through the orchestra like a bubbling stream of consciousness. That is how it should sound - over-wrought, overpowering, utterly unhinged and yet calculated even to the smallest detail." -- Gramophone  

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 26, 2007, 11:59:10 AM
Amoyal & Weissenberg Beethoven Violin Sonata No 7 C Minor Op 30 2nd Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/v/xm-Kc_hdwBs
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 26, 2007, 12:24:36 PM
Daniel Barenboim plays an excerpt from Beethoven's Appassionata Sonata. Taken from the DVD programme "Barenboim on Beethoven"


http://www.youtube.com/v/gRiy1RJq64o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on September 27, 2007, 07:31:52 PM
I think I posted this in the wrong topic column, so instead of 'merging' and messing it all up I used the unauthorised method of copy-paste here:

Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz and courageously step foreward with praise, yes, PRAISE, of this performance.

After reacting hohum to all the 9th I have heard, there is one actually expressing the Freude the sparks from the gods, bright glowing sparks, sparks strong enough to light fires. Pletnev brushed away all the cobwebs that had dulled and darkened this joyous composition by uncounted conductors, from the greatest to the dullest. This Pletnev interpretation - and his interpretation it is, his conviction of how the 9th should be played and heard - will not please the conservative old guard of Beethoven apostles, but it just might bring new, young and open-minded listeners into the ranks of classical music fans.

The soloists are impeccable! Matthias Goerne, the star of Henze's L'Upupa, Angela Denoke, the star of Korngold's Die Tote Stadt, and Endrik Wottrich, the star of numerous Wagner operas, and last but not least Marianna Tarasova, who I heard here for the first time, together with the Moscow State Chamber Choir, provide the most exhilerating finish to this 9th.

Quoting part of the remarks on the back of the box: "His interpretations seek to generate a new image of Beethoven as our contemporary, bringing his works into the here and now, continuing with Pletnev's words: "with every phrase, scream, and moment of joy lived through as intensely as in our real lives. The music must have an immediate emotional effect."

It does! Spasiba, Maestro Pletnev!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 03:02:55 AM
Thanks for the excellent review ....... of a very controversial performance.  I am now very interested in listening to Pletnev's take on LvB 9 .......  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 03:06:09 AM
Beethoven Piano Concerto No 4 part 1

Dimitris Sgouros is soloist with the Czech Philharmonic conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras. 1986 Prague Spring Festival.

http://www.youtube.com/v/oTCGRDvEk-k
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 03:07:11 AM
LvB PC 4 pt 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/B2DqqyScPQc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on October 03, 2007, 04:15:28 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on September 27, 2007, 07:31:52 PM
Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz and courageously step foreward with praise, yes, PRAISE, of this performance.

Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view (http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2316) on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
And I am sure there are a lot more negative reviews floating all over the classical music scene. I expected it because Mikhail Pletnev always has his own ideas of how to present classical works. No crime listening to him and then making a personal decision.

Off the Beethoven topic: On a collection of Russian Overtures disc with Pletnev, he opens the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla at incredible speed, putting me in awe of his Russian National Orchestra's musicians talent. A few hours ago I popped a cartridge in my player, not checking what I had, and there is this Glinka, same speed. "Ah, must be my Pletnev disc." No, it wasn't. It was Mravinsky!

Pletnev isn't so revolutionary - unusual - after all!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 03, 2007, 03:02:55 AM
Thanks for the excellent review ....... of a very controversial performance.  I am now very interested in listening to Pletnev's take on LvB 9 .......  8)

and I am eagerly looking forward to your reaction to it!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 06:49:34 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:45:33 PM
and I am eagerly looking forward to your reaction to it!  8)

Well, the last thing we want/need is a run-of-the-mill interpretation of LvB's d minor symphony.  Give us fire.  Give us passion. 

Quote from: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
And I am sure there are a lot more negative reviews floating all over the classical music scene. I expected it because Mikhail Pletnev always has his own ideas of how to present classical works. No crime listening to him and then making a personal decision.

Do you intensely like any of Pletnev's other LvB symphonies?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 06:50:19 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
Off the Beethoven topic: On a collection of Russian Overtures disc with Pletnev, he opens the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla at incredible speed, putting me in awe of his Russian National Orchestra's musicians talent. A few hours ago I popped a cartridge in my player, not checking what I had, and there is this Glinka, same speed. "Ah, must be my Pletnev disc." No, it wasn't. It was Mravinsky!

Pletnev isn't so revolutionary - unusual - after all!  ;D

As to Ruslan und Ludmilla, the faster the better ........  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 07:08:52 PM
I only completed my second run-through and am still catching one surprise after another. Takes time to sort them all out, but the Pastoral knocked me for a loop. That's the one Disney used with black and white horses flying through the sky? Correct me if I am wrong; but I stayed away from that one after the Disney experience. And there is this lovely picture of meadows, trees, mountains rain and a violent thunderstorm. It hit me: 'That's the Pastoral!' Pletnev taught me again what a wonderful symphony Beethoven composed for us, erased the Disney maltreatment and memory.

Pletnev also made me pay attention to the First, one that is so often overlooked.

The one I 'intensely' like is of course the Seventh. It always was my favourite of the nine, especially the one with Kleiber. I really looked forward to hearing the Pletnev version and was stunned when in the beginning I thought I had made a mistake and played the Kleiber disc! Only later on, especially the last movement is pure Pletnev. There too is fire and passion aplenty!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 03, 2007, 07:36:35 PM
Quote from: uffeviking on September 27, 2007, 07:31:52 PM
Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz.

In all honesty, people on various classical message boards scorn and ridicule Hurwitz all the time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 03, 2007, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: Que on October 03, 2007, 04:15:28 PM
Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view (http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2316) on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

That's for sure:

Quote"L'autre chose" de Pletnev c'est un système dans lequel les notes de Beethoven servent de substrat à des clowneries de rythmes et de phrasés. "Bozo" Pletnev s'amuse avec le texte beethovénien comme un enfant avec un yoyo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 07:58:25 PM
At least he expresses a sense of humour - as much as I can translate his opinion! - I bet it doesn't bother Pletnev one bit to be called a Bozo, - or a child playing with it's yo-yo - that is if he even bothers to read all of the reviews. He has more important things to do: Prepare himself for a new concert or recital or whatever, study and memorise scores, rehearse with his musicians, among other things musicians do with their spare time.

I wonder if Alex Ross is working on a review of this series!  ;)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 04, 2007, 11:29:41 AM
Quote from: Que on October 03, 2007, 04:15:28 PM
Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view (http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2316) on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

Here's an ALTAVISTA translation. 

The match is tight, the wild competition: who, of David Porcelijn and the Symphony orchestra of Tasmanie (discs ABC, into which the idea of genius of the chief is to introduce a pianoforte obligato into all the symphonies) or of Mikhaïl Pletnev with its National Orchestra of Russia, engraved the worst integral of the Symphonies of Beethoven? One will announce start which the "bad" adjective is in fact a synonym of "grotesque" or "ridiculous". One will also raise that one of the two rivals is published by the worthy house Deutsche Grammophon, which, in its case, adds "scandalous" to the list of the adjectives.

The orchestra even is not to him basically causes some, even if it seems hazardous to engrave a 3e and one 7th Symphony of Beethoven with a whole with the horns at this point absent. The desks of horns however historically contributed to the glory and the personality of the Russian full orchestras. With which it fault? No interest to rule on this point, since Mihkaïl Pletnev largely made the proof (cf its Tchaïkovski integral) of its incapacity "to balance" an orchestra polyphoniquement.

Among the objectively ridiculous elements of this box one will announce the "youyouyou" sopranos of the choir (ah! The two last minutes of 9th it is something...). That made since the Seventies and Eighties which one however included/understood that the tired voices of opera do not make the best forces choral societies in these cases of figure. Except that there is no there "error", fundamental. The error it is obviously the casting and the product.

The artistic project is summarized very simply and one will recognize at least in Pletnev triple constancy: the unit of vision throughout cycle; aesthetic coincidence between its taste of pianist and that as a chief; homogeneity in its massacre beethovénien. The summary is thus this one: like one about very heard in the symphonies of Beethoven, to point out itself, it is necessary to make "another thing".

"the other thing" of Pletnev it is a system in which the notes of Beethoven are used as substrate with clowneries of rates/rhythms and phrased. "Bozo" Pletnev has fun with the text beethovénien like a child with a yoyo. Quickly-slow-vite/accélérer-to slow down: the circus lasts six hours. The perfect synthesis of the horror concentrates at the beginning of the Pastoral one: an entry kind Jochum power 10 (with large idle in love at the end with the sentence) then a racing which seems caused by a puncture of tarantula.

The Heroic one is another abyssal moment, when, in the 1st movement at the time of the repeated agreements each agreement slows down, as if it were to be asséné. Pletnev wants "to do something", but it does anything and with a taste of [ what you will want ]. Horrors, there is as that in the least recesses (listen to the 3e movement of the 2e Symphonie). One starts to include/understand the utility of these mannerisms when it is noted that Pletnev is viscéralement unable to make live a movement or a sentence. In its (rare) moments of sobriety, its beaten is stiff and it does not know how to enrich a development (cf 1st movement of the 7th Symphony).

The publication of this box is a shame for Deutsche Grammophon. One is estomaqué and scandalized to note that the honor even this glorious house was to be sold, in his most invaluable bastion; Beethoven.

-- Christophe Huss
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 05, 2007, 04:52:42 AM
Speaking of LvB 9, Lilas Pastia has formulated an opinion regarding the new DGG recording with the Cleveland orchestra under Franz Welser-Möst (Jan 2007).  His 3-pronged formulation focuses on the conductor's Presentation, Execution, and Conception.

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on September 19, 2007, 06:23:22 PM
Beethoven, symphony no. 9. This is a new DGG recording with the Cleveland orchestra under Franz Welser-Möst. Live from Severance Hall, Jan 2007. I'll go straight out and tout this as a major recording.

1) Presentation: although it's a live occasion, no coughs or instrumental flubs are heard. The recording is strange: although very transparent, it boasts low frequencies that give a solar plexus blow every time double basses have the upper hand (more often than you'd think). Anyhow, the large scale chorus (at least 125 if one is to believe the picture) is heard with clarity and fine focus.

2) Execution: just perfect IMO, but these are definitely not viennese winds or strings. Chorus sounds really great, one of the best I've heard. Due to the very fast pacing of IV, the soprano and mezzo don't amount for much (a pity - not many conductors achieve the balance between forward momentum and the women's voices' need for space to expand). Tenor Lopardo is more of a liability than an asset. I cringed when I saw his name on the cover, but I suppose his contract had to be honoured. He sounds like a throaty baritone crooning up on high :P. Bass René Pape does not disappoint - Au contraire! His is a startling, imposing contribution, achieving the balance WM probably strived for: curt and bangy, but still sounding like a human voice speaking.

3) Conception: Were it not for a full complement of repeats in the scherzo, this would be a 62 minutes reading, making it one of the faster paced versions on the market. Be that as it may, it never sounds quick. The first movement (under 15 minutes) is hectic-but-slow, measured-but-urgent, achieving a strange, almost uneasy balance between these two extremes. It does fit the movement's character. The scherzo is fleet, but still not very fast. Tiimpani strokes almost underplayed (the timpanist must have been raging >:D). The movement's position in the total framework s nicely judjed. The adagio clocks in at around 14 minutes, neither fast, nor slow. It is very lyrical and sweet. No excessive profuuundity here, just an elegiac, sweet interlude. The Finale would (as it should in any decent version) calls for a detailed analysis. Suffice to say that at under 22 minutes (don't believe the timings here, they include the end's applause)  it sounds youthful yet solid, exuberant and determined yet lyrical and joyful. I like the way urgency and ecstasy are brought together in the final Tochter aus Elysium choral ejaculation.

Altogether, I thought this is a recording that is intensely honest, in the sense of being more - much more - about the composer than the conductor. No mean feat...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 05, 2007, 05:39:39 AM
Quote from: altavista
The match is tight, the wild competition

Sounds like Henningmusick!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: premont on October 05, 2007, 06:14:55 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 04, 2007, 11:29:41 AM
... The summary is thus this one: like one about very heard in the symphonies of Beethoven, to point out itself, it is necessary to make "another thing".

"the other thing" of Pletnev it is a system in which the notes of Beethoven are used as substrate with clowneries of rates/rhythms and phrased. .

Sounds familiar. Read Gould instead of Pletnev and Bach instead of Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 05, 2007, 06:18:46 AM
Quote from: premont on October 05, 2007, 06:14:55 AM
Sounds familiar. Read Gould instead of Pletnev and Bach instead of Beethoven.

LOL  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 05, 2007, 08:08:40 AM
One is estomaqué indeed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 05, 2007, 02:59:34 PM
"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne" is the entrance by the baritone and Goerne scolds us all very effectively in his grand voice. 'No, let's try this Beethoven masterpiece a bit differently, for a change' seems Pletnev telling us, and he does. Of course it's controversial for the pedants but fortunately there are enough adventurous music lover, not shying away from listening and accepting Pletnev's challenge.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 02:28:53 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on October 05, 2007, 02:59:34 PM
"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne" is the entrance by the baritone and Goerne scolds us all very effectively in his grand voice. 'No, let's try this Beethoven masterpiece a bit differently, for a change' seems Pletnev telling us, and he does. Of course it's controversial for the pedants but fortunately there are enough adventurous music lover, not shying away from listening and accepting Pletnev's challenge.  8)

Uffe, I'm largely in agreement: music discovery should be an adventure, not some classroom exercise.  Since no one knows with precision what exactly LvB intended, the best we can do is weigh LvB's "intent" as one factor among many factors in formulating the optimal performance.  IOW, the purview of valid interpretations is wide-open, with new boundaries waiting to be explored .......and with new messages and meanings waiting to be discovered and expressed.

As much as with any composer, LvB wanted his scores to breathe with life, with vital energy surging with each passing bar.  Great composers deliberately infused their scores with hidden complexities and latent beauties, leaving it for only the most gifted and adventurous of conductors to unleash each hidden gem.

(again, I haven't heard the Pletnev versions)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 02:39:45 AM
 Esa-Pekka Salonen studies Bach, Strauss and Beethoven for clues to the meaning of existence. By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times (Oct. 7 2007)  (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/arts/la-et-phil8oct08,0,7482953.story?coll=la-home-middleright)

(http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-10/33066469.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 02:53:41 AM
4 Recordings of Cleveland Orchestra doing LvB 9

Szell/Cleveland (1961)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V84Q3G91L._AA115_.jpg)

Szell's recording (Sony Classical) is monumental. From the first movement's mysterious opening notes to the finale's jubilant conclusion, the account abounds in visceral drama, probing expressivity and orchestral splendor. Szell's steadfast rhythmic intensity drives the Beethoven engine while keeping the musical destinations in sight. Command of architecture and instrumental balance are Szell hallmarks that make his Ninth a tour de force. He takes some liberties with Beethoven's orchestration, adding winds and horns in spots to reinforce textures. But Szell attains remarkable clarity, and he animates the score through pinpoint articulation and subtle fluctuation of dynamics and nuances.

Maazel/Cleveland (1978)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/3139V5BGQGL._AA115_.jpg)

Wherever he makes music, Maazel has a tendency to surprise with idiosyncratic effects, especially in Classical and Romantic repertoire. His Cleveland recording of the Ninth on CBS Records isn't free of quirks, but it's also a bold exploration.  Like Szell, Maazel demands crisp attack and precise ensemble. Some of Maazel's pacing is broad, and he instigates an odd pullback of tempo before one of the big choral outbursts in the finale. The ear adjusts. The slow movement unfolds sensitively, and Maazel allows the orchestra the freedom to play vividly within his controlled parameters.

Dohnanyi/Cleveland (1985)

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MPY8CNX7L._AA115_.jpg)

Dohnanyi leads an urgent, lucid Ninth (Telarc) that is tonally warmer than his predecessors', if less sharp in attack. He joins Szell and Maazel in providing the slow movement with the requisite contrasts of mood and emphasizing the diverse string and wind sonorities that are so crucial to the music's affecting beauty.
The orchestra is in outstanding form under Dohnanyi, who stresses proportion and shapes Beethoven with an elastic hand. Lightness, simplicity and vigor place this performance proudly alongside his colleagues' Ninths.

Welser-MÖst CD of Beethoven's Ninth falls short of other Cleveland Orchestra versions   (http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/1191660329271830.xml&coll=2)

Sunday, October 07, 2007
After discussing Szell/Cleveland (1961); Maazel/Cleveland (1978); and Christoph von Dohnanyi /Cleveland (1985), Don Rosenberg expresses an opinion on Franz Welser-MÖst/Cleveland (Oct. 2007).:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1002387.jpg)

It is with the Ninth Symphony that Cleveland Orchestra music director Franz Welser-MÖst is making his debut on commercial recording with the ensemble, whose last compact disc Pierre Boulez led in 2000. Welser-MÖst's Ninth was captured during concerts in January at Severance Hall and released Tuesday on the Deutsche Grammophon label, which has an armful of distinguished Ninths in its catalog.

Considering the array of recordings on the market, the release of yet another Ninth would seem to demand that a conductor have distinctive ideas about the music. But it is difficult to discern how Welser-MÖst feels about the Ninth. His performance rarely rises above the workmanlike, despite the elegance, vibrancy and sheen the orchestra often brings to Beethoven.

Welser-MÖst conducts one of the fastest Ninths in recent recorded history, due mostly to his pell-mell pacing of the "Ode to Joy." ***  Welser-MÖst's general rashness minus adequate tension, especially in a finale that becomes a madcap dash to the finish line, heightens his Ninth's generic qualities. Many details are inaudible. Where is the opening violin motive, for example, that catapults the first movement's events?
Dynamics often are suppressed and articulations elongated as Welser-MÖst favors smoothness over definition, like sentences without punctuation. There is hardly any evidence of the cantabile (singing) marking in the slow movement.

Although ensemble matters sometimes sound wan under Welser-MÖst, the orchestra largely is the model of responsiveness and refinement it has been for decades. The same can be said for the Cleveland Orchestra Chorus, though Szell's recording with Robert Shaw's choral contingent remains the benchmark.

Of the four conductors, Szell has the most cultivated quartet of vocal soloists (Adele Addison, Jane Hobson, Richard Lewis, Donald Bell), who never sound taxed by Beethoven's strenuous writing. Maazel's group -- Lucia Popp, Elena Obraztsova, Jon Vickers, Martti Talvela -- is unashamedly operatic (and loud), while Dohnanyi fields the mellifluous combination of Carol Vaness, Janice Taylor, Siegfried Jerusalem and Robert Lloyd.

Welser-MÖst is so hyper in the finale that he doesn't give Measha Brueggergosman, Kelley O'Connor, Frank Lopardo and the magnificent, vehement Rene Pape the means to treat Beethoven with much nobility or finesse. What's the point of this music if it flies by with scant concern for phrasing, accent and breathing space?

The bigger question may be moot, but it's worth pondering. Why did Welser-MÖst and the orchestral powers-that-be -- and eventually Deutsche Grammophon -- choose the Ninth for the conductor's first compact disc in Cleveland?

The answer might be that Beethoven delivers, aesthetically and financially, no matter who is in charge. Still, as the previous Cleveland Ninth recordings proclaim, the score's electricity and poetry take us to the highest world when a conductor communicates a compelling vision to musicians and listeners alike.

Don Rosenberg is classical music critic of The Plain Dealer.






Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2007, 03:01:09 AM
Fine review Dmitri! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 05:19:17 AM
I have the first three of these and not only is the Dohnányi my favored of the three, it is my favorite Ninth, period.  Even more so than HvK's '63 or either of my Furtwängler's on the shelf.  Having sadi this, it is very nice to have them all for variety sake.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 08, 2007, 05:35:15 AM
Bogey, then do you intend to be fair and give the Pletnev 9th a try?  ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 05:47:59 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on October 08, 2007, 05:35:15 AM
Bogey, then do you intend to be fair and give the Pletnev 9th a try?  ???

Oh sure....always willing to try something new.  It is just difficult for me to purchase another 9th when I already have so many I enjoy on the shelf, while at the same time not have a single copy of so many other pieces.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 05:50:51 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 05:47:59 AM
Oh sure....always willing to try something new. 

Live life on the wild side ....... and GO FOR IT! ....... :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 05:53:43 AM
Released yesterday on YOUTUBE .......

Paul Badura-Skoda Beethoven Sonata no. 32

1/3

http://www.youtube.com/v/bBCiGp4w1ms&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 06:11:33 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 08, 2007, 05:50:51 AM
Live life on the wild side ....... and GO FOR IT! ....... :D

Looks to be available only in a $55+ box set....I will need to look into the secondary market.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 06:36:37 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 06:11:33 AM
Looks to be available only in a $55+ box set....I will need to look into the secondary market.

........ I wonder if Hurwitz will unload his copy at a discount ........  :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/93/78/6dc91363ada0ec44b714d010.M.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 08, 2007, 08:11:18 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 08, 2007, 02:53:41 AM
The bigger question may be moot, but it's worth pondering. Why did Welser-MÖst and the orchestral powers-that-be -- and eventually Deutsche Grammophon -- choose the Ninth for the conductor's first compact disc in Cleveland?

The answer might be that Beethoven delivers, aesthetically and financially, no matter who is in charge.


I couldn't agree more with the above. In fact, I wrote as much myself:


Quote from: donwyn on September 19, 2007, 09:43:05 PM
This strikes me as DG simply trying to make a big splash with their newest signee, Welser-Möst. Hogtie him to the biggest name in the classical biz in the biggest symphony in the classical biz. Guaranteed to rake in the $$. ::)

I'm saddened DG couldn't have seen fit to record/release something new from Martinu, or Scriabin, or Enescu...





Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 09:39:20 AM
Quote from: donwyn on October 08, 2007, 08:11:18 AM

"The bigger question may be moot, but it's worth pondering. Why did Welser-MÖst and the orchestral powers-that-be -- and eventually Deutsche Grammophon -- choose the Ninth for the conductor's first compact disc in Cleveland? The answer might be that Beethoven delivers, aesthetically and financially, no matter who is in charge."  

I couldn't agree more with the above. In fact, I wrote as much myself:

"I'm saddened DG couldn't have seen fit to record/release something new from Martinu, or Scriabin, or Enescu"

Well, there are several points.

1. Yes, it's certainly true that we need more recordings of Martinu, Enescu et al.

2. Is there really a saturation point for the Ninth?  Can we have TOO MANY LvB Ninth's churned out?  If there is a saturation point, have we reached it yet?  (I say "no").

3. Is there really a tradeoff?  Are the performance/recording resources so scarce that we can't have BOTH Beethoven and Martinu?

4. While it's true that LvB 9 "delivers financially," doesn't it also "deliver" spiritually, musically, aesthetically, emotionally, intellectually, and artistically?  Moreso than virtually any other work?  To that extent, shouldn't the choice of LvB 9 be exalted rather than criticized?

5. There is always the possibility that a new performance of the Ninth will be groundbreaking, earthshattering, and all that ......... A 21st-Century version of Furtwängler (new and improved) could always emerge .........

6. [Reserved]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 08, 2007, 09:41:16 AM
Quote2. Is there really a saturation point for the Ninth?  Can we have TOO MANY LvB Ninth's churned out?  If there is a saturation point, have we reached it yet?  (I say "no").

I'm still waiting for the "perfect" one.  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 09:45:44 AM
BTW, according to the Cleveland Orchestra website, the Miami Herald described Welser-Möst's performance as "soaring, eloquent":

Of their interpretation of the Ninth, the Miami Herald wrote: "One would expect Welser-Möst and the Cleveland Orchestra to put on an impressive display in the music of Beethoven. But the soaring, eloquent performance heard Friday night was remarkable even by the Clevelanders' elevated reputation."  (http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/html/PressRoom/pressreleases.asp?ID=165)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 08, 2007, 08:58:31 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 08, 2007, 09:39:20 AM
2. Is there really a saturation point for the Ninth?  Can we have TOO MANY LvB Ninth's churned out?  If there is a saturation point, have we reached it yet?  (I say "no").

I would argue that. I think we've definitely reached a saturation point. Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv I can't see it as any other way. And that's just what's currently in print. OOP editions could very well double that figure! 

Quote3. Is there really a tradeoff?  Are the performance/recording resources so scarce that we can't have BOTH Beethoven and Martinu?

Are you talking about DG (Universal) specifically? If so, you'd think there would be enough in the budget to record both. It's a big corporation. The question then becomes why aren't they doing it?

Which is where the independent labels come in. If not for them who'd even know Enescu exists?

Quote4. While it's true that LvB 9 "delivers financially," doesn't it also "deliver" spiritually, musically, aesthetically, emotionally, intellectually, and artistically?  Moreso than virtually any other work?  To that extent, shouldn't the choice of LvB 9 be exalted rather than criticized?

If it's your intent to say Beethoven's ninth is so good it should have a free pass to be recorded ad infinitum I disagree. At least to the extent lesser known repertoire is muscled out in the process.

Sure, record the ninth if one must...but the problem I have is that DG's just released a brand new ninth: Pletnev's (in his cycle). That's two releases of the same work by the same company. Concurrently! I hate to think of the budgetary dollars that were dried up in deciding this.

Quote5. There is always the possibility that a new performance of the Ninth will be groundbreaking, earthshattering, and all that ......... A 21st-Century version of Furtwängler (new and improved) could always emerge .........

One would hope that's the case with any new release! ;D But, of course, too many chiefs can spoil the lot. If everyone's a Furtwängler or a Beethoven...

So how about letting some of the workers have their say on occasion? Might discover there's a voice worth hearing...

Quote6. [Reserved]

Hmm...whatcha got up your sleeve? ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 09, 2007, 05:10:52 AM
Quote from: donwyn on October 08, 2007, 08:58:31 PM
Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv

:o  Way to go Beethoven!

217 versions of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in d minor

1 version of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony in d minor


Yeah, there is indeed a whopping disparity.  But as long as DG makes ten times the profit from selling LvB 9, I don't see that changing!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 09, 2007, 05:12:01 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 09, 2007, 05:10:52 AM
217 versions of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in d minor

Which one's the perfect one? :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 09, 2007, 05:21:21 AM
Quote from: dtw on October 09, 2007, 05:12:01 AM
Which one's the perfect one? :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YB0Y540PL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2007, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 05:19:17 AM
I have the first three of these and not only is the Dohnányi my favored of the three, it is my favorite Ninth, period..

Mine too (I own 15 other versions of the Ninth).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2007, 07:19:17 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 08, 2007, 02:53:41 AM
4 Recordings of Cleveland Orchestra doing LvB 9...

Thanks for posting this, D.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 09, 2007, 08:41:04 AM
Grimaud / Tempest in d minor

http://www.youtube.com/v/yTbXfbvfLi4

Beethoven Piano Sonata No.17 "Tempest" 3rd.Mov

Added Oct. 8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 10, 2007, 06:34:41 AM
Quote from: donwyn on October 08, 2007, 08:58:31 PM
. Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv I can't see it as any other way.

Just jumped to 218 ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 10, 2007, 06:35:30 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 10, 2007, 06:34:41 AM
Just jumped to 218 ........

I don't want anyone making recommendations until they've heard all 218.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 10, 2007, 06:36:29 AM
Quote from: donwyn on October 08, 2007, 08:58:31 PM
. Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv I can't see it as any other way.

On a separate but related note, Donwyn, do you think there are too many LvB Seventh Symphonies (of which there are a mere 208 recordings)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 10, 2007, 06:42:08 AM
2 Emperors were unleashed yesterday:

Hélène Grimaud / Wladimir Jurowski / Dresden Staatskapelle (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/thumb/100/1002210.jpg)

Ashkenazy / Haitink / London Phil (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/177008.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 10, 2007, 06:47:41 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 10, 2007, 06:42:08 AM
2 Emperors were unleashed yesterday:

Hélène Grimaud / Wladimir Jurowski / Dresden Staatskapelle (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/thumb/100/1002210.jpg)

Ashkenazy / Haitink / London Phil (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/177008.jpg)

I'll take both.  Any reviews available yet?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 10, 2007, 07:45:10 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 10, 2007, 06:34:41 AM
Just jumped to 218 ........

Okay, time to release the hounds....

;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 10, 2007, 08:56:43 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 10, 2007, 06:36:29 AM
On a separate but related note, Donwyn, do you think there are too many LvB Seventh Symphonies (of which there are a mere 208 recordings)?

Yes, I do.

Though I guess companies need the windfall to keep themselves afloat. That would seem to be the implication.

Vänskä's a good example. He's riding high right now, with his new orchestra and all (Minnesota), so why shouldn't BIS cash in on his popularity by issuing a new Beethoven cycle? Makes perfect fiscal sense.

But does it make good artistic sense? Depends. If BIS follows the Beethoven with yet another Tchaikovsky symphony cycle then I say no.

On the other hand if BIS builds on Vänskä's popularity and unearths some underrepresented goodies for their next recording project then I say a resounding yes! I mean, what better way to generate interest in worthwhile yet underrepresented repertoire than by linking it to a hot hand?

It's all about discovery. Folks know Vänskä (heck, even my mother-in-law [here in the States] knows who he is) so taking an Enescu/Martinu/Scriabin leap of faith might prove less daunting if accompanied by a familiar face.

Who knows, it could even prove to be such a windfall that other companies begin to copycat! I can see it now: 208 Martinu fourth symphony recordings listed on Arkiv! Yippeeeeeee...... (but that's a discussion for another day! ;D)




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 11, 2007, 04:09:17 AM
Quote from: donwyn on October 10, 2007, 08:56:43 PM
Yes, I do. ***But does it make good artistic sense? Depends. If BIS follows the Beethoven with yet another Tchaikovsky symphony cycle then I say no.

On the other hand if BIS builds on Vänskä's popularity and unearths some underrepresented goodies for their next recording project then I say a resounding yes! I mean, what better way to generate interest in worthwhile yet underrepresented repertoire than by linking it to a hot hand?

It's all about discovery. *** Who knows, it could even prove to be such a windfall that other companies begin to copycat! I can see it now: 208 Martinu fourth symphony recordings listed on Arkiv! Yippeeeeeee...... (but that's a discussion for another day! ;D)

Well, once again, you're bundling together several points ........

1. LvB 7 is not a saturated market. With new recording techniques and recording media, it's mindboggling to think of how many highly impressive performances have yet to be tapped -- perhaps thousands -- perhaps tens of thousands.  Not to mention fresh approaches and interpretations given new conductors and new performers.

What if, unbeknownst to you, Paul Kletzki had made a DVD of LvB 7 with spectacular sonics and visuals (and the Czech Philharmonic, of course)? ......... and DG released it on October 9, 2007 ($19.95)........ Would you buy it?

2. If you believe that Vänskä is a credible artist, and that he, in good conscience, believes that he can add a great deal of insight into the interpretations of LvB 7, shouldn't he be encouraged to do that?  You are assuming that the only reason anyone churns out Beethoven is to make money.  I wish Vänskä would post on this board and tell us how Beethoven's 7th affects and nurtures his soul and artistry.  Maybe the primary reasons conductors perform Beethoven is because of its artistic value ........

3. The new Pletnev release shows just how wildly different interpretations can be of LvB's symphonies.  LvB's symphonies aren't static, dead warhorses.  Rather, they are bristling with potential ....... with their latent, hidden mysteries waiting to be unearthed.  Personally, I'm not sure if we've even probed the tip of the iceberg with respect to LvB's symphonies.  And the market certainly IS NOT SATURATED.

4. Perhaps the best solution to our dilemma is to bundle Beethoven with Martinu ...... for example by including Martinu's 4th Symphony with Beethoven's 4th Symphony (or wha'ever).  Win-win-win situation.

5. I agree that "it's all about discovery."  And given the depth and profundity of many of LvB's compositions, there are many more discoveries to be made with various new interpretations/performances of his masterpieces.

6. Again, there is no mutual exclusivity.  We can have lots of new Beethoven and lots of new Martinu without any tradeoffs.  The globe is filled with countless orchestras, performers, and conductors ....... we can have both ........ and we can have both LvB and Martinu on the same CD/DVD ....... paving the way to limitless discoveries for listeners ..........

7. [Reserved]


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 11, 2007, 06:13:53 AM
A very thoughtful and thought provoking post, Dmitri!

Human nature with all it's fault makes it so bothersome to switch gear from something familiar and comforting. It's so much easier to sit back - either in the comfort of one's home, or the less comfortable concert hall seat - and relax with a well-known version of one's favourtie symphony, than to sit up and discover a bit of new tempo or volume, evaluate it and search for reasons of the change.

Great discoveries can be made giving something new a fair chance!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 11, 2007, 07:06:37 AM
This reviewer found Pletnev's cycle to be "significant ..... [e]specially for cheek, excitement and rhetoric ......"

He gave it a 4 out of 5 .......



From The Times
September 21, 2007
MIKHAIL PLETNEV: BEETHOVEN SYMPHONIES
Geoff Brown
 (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article2497737.ece)

Trumpetings from the Deutsche Grammophon people suggest that Beethoven will never be the same again. With this set of the nine symphonies, as with his continuing piano concerto cycle, conductor and pianist Mikhail Pletnev, they say, has knocked Beethoven off his museum perch and made him our contemporary. The Beethoven legacy has been marked forever.

All exaggeration. Beethoven has never felt dusty. The publicity, too, does a disservice to earlier recorded cycles from the period-instrument specialists Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Roger Norrington or, more recently, David Zinman – all conductors who leap to mind as Pletnev punches through fortissimo chords and pushes the tension sky-high. From an earlier age, Wilhelm Furtwängler also pops into the head for his loose speeds and improvisatory air. The Beethoven legacy has not been altered, merely continued.

Even so, Pletnev's cycle, recorded over 11 hectic days last summer with his excellent Russian National Orchestra, is still significant. Especially for cheek, excitement and rhetoric. Fast speeds are pushed beyond the dial, often with consequences for string articulation. Slow stretches can be resoundingly slow: note his Eroica funeral march, 16 minutes long. At best Pletnev's volatile behaviour gives the symphonies a sense of exploration and growth. The Eroica first movement in particular is a triumph of flexible speed – there's life and surprise in every bar.

And at worst? Well, none of the nine performances is untenable. But subtleties sometimes get squashed in the rush (the Second's finale). And in several of the most iconic symphonies Pletnev, for all his passion and commitment, oddly appears to have little to say. Some speed quirks apart, most of the notes in the Fifth roll themselves out as usual. The Ninth, too, appears a little ordinary: Pletnev's punch-drunk staccatos aren't the best conduit for universal joy.

Usually, the more risks Pletnev takes the sharper the music-making's character. Woodwind and brass players never seem put out by his streaking speeds; likewise the orchestra's timpanist. And there's a dangerous delight about Pletnev's approach. Try the first movement of the Pastoral: in both directions speeds are pushed to the brink of madness, but you can't deny the countryside's thrill.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 12, 2007, 09:43:22 AM
Comparing/Contrasting Pletnev with Mackerras

Tim Ashley
Friday October 12, 2007
The Guardian

Beethoven: The Nine Symphonies Edinburgh Festival Chorus/ SCO/ Philharmonia/ Mackerras
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2007/10/11/beethoven1.jpg)

Also reviewed: Beethoven: The Nine Symphonies, Moscow State Chamber Choir/ Russian NO/ Pletnev

These two new Beethoven cycles are in many respects antithetical, though to hear them in tandem is to be reminded of the tremendous interpretative diversity his music permits. Both were recorded last year. The Hyperion set derives from BBC broadcasts of Charles Mackerras's Edinburgh festival cycle and features the two UK orchestras with which he is primarily associated - the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, who play the first eight, and the Philharmonia, who take over for the Ninth. Mikhail Pletnev's DG cycle with his Russian National Orchestra was taped in Moscow following an intensive series of concerts. Both are hugely personal. Broadly speaking, Mackerras presents each symphony as self-contained, and the stylistic range of the cycle as a whole is striking. Pletnev, more contentiously, is anxious to find a unity of revolutionary purpose that links all nine.

Pletnev's avowed aim is that "every phrase, scream and moment of joy [should be] lived through as intensely as in our real lives". In the process, however, he steers us closer than Mackerras to the conventionally held view of Beethoven as predominantly snarling and titanic. His speeds can be wayward and exaggerated and he sometimes cramps Beethoven's emotional range. What crucially slips is the humour. Pletnev is dour in the first two symphonies, where Mackerras emphasises the often witty experiments with classical form that preceded the epoch-making structural overhaul of the Eroica. The Fourth, in which Beethoven plays endless games by confounding listeners' expectations, is the hardest of the series to get right: Mackerras is bang on with every stylistic jolt here, while Pletnev seems over-deliberate.

Pletnev, however, sometimes takes us to extremes in ways that Mackerras does not. His Fifth is both savage and elated, while Mackerras's is low-key by comparison. Pletnev's Seventh is also more transparent and more overtly Dionysian than its opposite number. Neither Pastoral is ideal - Mackerras is overly classical and severe, and Pletnev's speeds are again too erratic. Both Eighths are superb, if contradictory: Mackerras is unusually nostalgic, Pletnev very grand and doggedly turbulent. You can't fault the Ninths, either. Whether you prefer Pletnev's hieratic, ritual approach to Mackerras's deep humanity is a matter of taste. Both recordings have some extraneous noise. There's coughing and platform clatter on the Mackerras set. Pletnev, meanwhile, can be heard singing along, though never intrusively.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 12, 2007, 09:54:26 AM
I didn't hear Pletnev! Have to run them again and pay more attention to his voice than his conducting. No, just kidding. This is a very good review, thanks, Dmitri. I have not heard the Mackerras so I take the reviewer's word for it because he sounds fair and non-partisan; that's what I like to read in any review.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 12, 2007, 09:29:20 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 11, 2007, 04:09:17 AM
Well, once again, you're bundling together several points ........

I had no idea I had to curtail my 'point bundling'...

You asked a question...I gave an answer. I actually went well beyond the one word answer your question in all honestly warranted. I mean, in the spirit of conversation and all...

Quote1. LvB 7 is not a saturated market. With new recording techniques and recording media, it's mindboggling to think of how many highly impressive performances have yet to be tapped -- perhaps thousands -- perhaps tens of thousands.  Not to mention fresh approaches and interpretations given new conductors and new performers.

Tens of thousands, eh? Expecting something 'fresh' from the 53,407th recording of B's seventh symphony requires a huge leap of faith! But who better to expect that from than the board's number one Beethoven lover: D minor!!

Of course, me being the rabid Beethoven hater (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3764.msg91508.html#msg91508) I have lower expectations...

QuoteWhat if, unbeknownst to you, Paul Kletzki had made a DVD of LvB 7 with spectacular sonics and visuals (and the Czech Philharmonic, of course)? ......... and DG released it on October 9, 2007 ($19.95)........ Would you buy it?

No. I'm not into concert DVD's. And Supraphon had the quality sound thing down in the mid-60s. Well ahead of their time...

Quote2. If you believe that Vänskä is a credible artist, and that he, in good conscience, believes that he can add a great deal of insight into the interpretations of LvB 7, shouldn't he be encouraged to do that?  You are assuming that the only reason anyone churns out Beethoven is to make money.  I wish Vänskä would post on this board and tell us how Beethoven's 7th affects and nurtures his soul and artistry.  Maybe the primary reasons conductors perform Beethoven is because of its artistic value ........

Conversations that hinge on presuppositions about the other party really aren't conversations...

Quote3. The new Pletnev release shows just how wildly different interpretations can be of LvB's symphonies.  LvB's symphonies aren't static, dead warhorses.  Rather, they are bristling with potential ....... with their latent, hidden mysteries waiting to be unearthed.  Personally, I'm not sure if we've even probed the tip of the iceberg with respect to LvB's symphonies.  And the market certainly IS NOT SATURATED.

Of course the market's not saturated. We haven't even gotten to the 12,683rd recording of the seventh, yet...

Quote4. Perhaps the best solution to our dilemma is to bundle Beethoven with Martinu ...... for example by including Martinu's 4th Symphony with Beethoven's 4th Symphony (or wha'ever).  Win-win-win situation.

What's the dilemma? In all honesty I'm not half as worried about the situation as you appear to be.

Quote5. I agree that "it's all about discovery."  And given the depth and profundity of many of LvB's compositions, there are many more discoveries to be made with various new interpretations/performances of his masterpieces.

I guess we'll never know how "deep and profound" Martinu's fourth symphony is since every available inch reserved for recordings has been earmarked for the literally hundreds of thousands (millions??) of Beethoven projects...not much room left for anything else.

Quote6. Again, there is no mutual exclusivity.  We can have lots of new Beethoven and lots of new Martinu without any tradeoffs.  The globe is filled with countless orchestras, performers, and conductors ....... we can have both ........ and we can have both LvB and Martinu on the same CD/DVD ....... paving the way to limitless discoveries for listeners..........

Well, we've been down this road. I'd like to see the majors show more initiative and record both!

Quote7. [Reserved]

Did I mention that conversations that hinge on presuppositions about the other party really aren't conversations?




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 13, 2007, 04:16:10 AM
Vänskä and Minnesota Orchestra to Complete Beethoven's Symphony Cycle in January

Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra will record Beethoven's Seventh and Second Symphonies in January 2008 for the final installment of their Beethoven Symphonies CD cycle on the BIS label. -- www.minnesotaorchestra.org

Vänskä and Minnesota Orchestra Concludes Beethoven Cycle

Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra conclude their acclaimed performance cycle of Beethoven's symphonies with concerts November 1 to 3 featuring LvB's Seventh Symphony and his noble Emperor Piano Concerto, which showcases 27-year-old Russian piano virtuoso Yevgeny Sudbin as soloist.

Sudbin, lauded by London's The Daily Telegraph as "potentially one of the greatest pianists of the 21st century," makes his Orchestra Hall debut on the three programs, which also include a fantasia by John Corigliano based on a theme from Beethoven's Seventh Symphony.  Russian-born Yevgeny Sudbin has already been hailed by critics as the 21st century's first great new piano talent. Since the 2005 release of his highly praised debut recording of Scarlatti sonatas on the Swedish BIS label, he has performed extensively throughout the world and recorded three additional solo albums for BIS. His current season includes debuts with three American orchestras and recitals throughout the U.S. and Europe.  Born in St. Petersburg in 1980, Sudbin has studied at the St. Petersburg Conservatory, Berlin's Hochschule Hanns Eisle and the Royal Academy of Music in London, where he currently resides.

Confident nobility and rhythmic energy permeate Ludwig van Beethoven's Emperor Piano Concerto, its composer's fifth and final contribution to the form. The notoriously difficult concerto was completed in Vienna in 1809 as Napoleon's army occupied the city. After an epic first movement full of wide leaps and frequent cadenzas, a reflective adagio and an energetic rondo cap this touchstone of the piano repertoire.

Beethoven's lively Seventh Symphony, famously termed "the apotheosis of dance" by Richard Wagner, builds a series of striking musical moments from short, simple figures. The second movement has been an audience favorite since its 1813 premiere, when it was immediately encored.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on October 13, 2007, 06:41:10 AM
Well, there is always room for more Beethoven, provided that it is HIP.
I have heard and already own enough immensly satisfying non-HIP Beethoven to last a life time.

I embraced Bruno Weil's recording of the 5th and 6th (Analekta, see my post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.msg85780.html#msg85780) the HIP Beethoven thread) and will welcome the announced complete cycle with Jos Van Immerseel (Zig Zag) with open arms.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 13, 2007, 08:45:48 AM
Caramoor Announces Lecture Series On Beethoven's Shadow 
Written by Westchester.com     
Friday, 12 October 2007 

Katonah, NY – The first of three music lectures on aspects of Beethoven's Shadow – the theme of this autumn's Great Artists in the Music Room series at Caramoor Center for Music and the Arts – will take place on Sunday, October 14.

Beethoven's Shadow explores the work of Beethoven (1770-1827) as well as the great music written after Beethoven and influenced by his ground-breaking work.  The series will also include a concert of holiday music in December.

The first lecture, "Beethoven's Shadow: Exploring the Connection Between Beethoven and Schumann" will take place on Sunday, October 14 at 4:00 pm and feature lecturer Michael Barrett and William Sharp, baritone.  The lecture will include discussion and performance of Beethoven's An die Ferne Geliebte, regarded as the first great German song cycle, paving the way for Schubert, Schumann, Hugo Wolf and others.  In addition to An Die Ferne Geliebte, William Sharp with Michael Barrett at the piano will perform Schumann's Liederkreis, Op. 39.

On Sunday, November 11 at 4:00 pm, San Francisco Conservatory of Music professor Paul Hersh will discuss "Exploring the Influence of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas."   He will explore the literary legacy and musical structure of Beethoven's final piano sonata, Op. 111.  The lecture will conclude with a performance of the sonata by Mr. Hersh.

The third lecture in the series, "Exploring Beethoven's Symphonic Shadows," will be given by Paul Epstein and will take place on Sunday, November 18 at 4:00 pm.  This lecture will examine three of Beethoven's symphonies, the revolutionary panorama of the Third (Eroica), the absolute musical unity of the Fifth, and the Ninth's embodiment of nothing less than the whole of humanity and the world, and trace their overwhelming influence on such diverse composers as Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, Debussy and Ives.

The lectures complement the autumn's Great Artists in the Music Room Series, which began on October 6 with the Brentano String Quartet and continues on Saturday, October 20 at 8:00 pm with pianist Vladimir Feltsman, violist Paul Neubauer, and baritone William Sharp with a program of Beethoven's Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Op. 27, No. 2 (Moonlight); Schumann's Liederkreis, Op. 39 (poems by Eichendorff); and Shostakovich's Sonata for Viola and Piano.  The final Beethoven's Shadow performance, Saturday, November 3 at 8 pm, will feature Lily Francis, violin; Edward Arron, cello; and Anton Kuerti, piano with a program of Beethoven's Trio in C minor, Op. 1, No. 3; Shostakovich's Trio No. 2 in E minor, Op. 67; and Trio No. 2 in C Major, Op. 87 by Brahms.

Tickets
Tickets for the Beethoven's Shadow lectures are $15.  For further information about all events at Caramoor and to order tickets call the Caramoor Box Office at 914.232.1252 or visit www.caramoor.org. 

About Caramoor
Caramoor is the legacy of Walter and Lucie Rosen, who built the great house and filled it with their treasures.  Walter Rosen was the master planner for the Caramoor estate, bringing to reality his dream of creating a place to entertain friends from around the world.  Their musical evenings were the seeds of the annual summertime Caramoor International Music Festival, as well as the Fall and Spring musical programs held in their former home, now the House Museum.  Realizing the pleasure their friends took in the beauty of Caramoor – the house with its art collection, the gardens, and the musical programs – the Rosens established a Foundation to open Caramoor to the public in perpetuity.

Caramoor Center for Music and the Arts is located at 149 Girdle Ridge Road, Katonah, New York.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 13, 2007, 07:14:15 PM
I have one more Beethoven 5th in my collection which has not been mentioned here - yet!

It's a Budapest Music Center Records disc with Peter Eötvös conducting his own composition zeroPoints played by the Göteborgs Symfoniker and then Beethoven's 5th by the Ensemble Modern. This should be an inspiration for concert program planners: Mix the old with the new, give them Eötvös and then sooth their tempers with their beloved Ludwig!

Eötvös gives the 5th a very brisk pace, not exactly speeding, but he is not loitering either and of course the Ensemble Modern is outstanding, as always. I like it!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 14, 2007, 03:27:37 AM
Quote from: uffeviking on October 13, 2007, 07:14:15 PM
This should be an inspiration for concert program planners: Mix the old with the new, give them Eötvös and then sooth their tempers with their beloved Ludwig!

That's what I'm talkin' about .......
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 14, 2007, 03:35:12 AM
Greatest Fountains of the World accompanied by LvB's d minor symphony (1'12") ........

http://www.youtube.com/v/-qAliFFbXP0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 14, 2007, 06:15:49 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 14, 2007, 03:27:37 AM
That's what I'm talkin' about .......

But nobody is listening to you - and me - and very often to the artistic directors of a symphony orchestra. From the personal experience of a conductor friend, it's the blue-haired money bags sitting on the board of directors, who are dictating what he can put on the program! I believe concert goers should be more vocal in asking for a mix of the old and the new.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 16, 2007, 06:10:11 AM
Have you ever pondered what sort of wonders could be lurking within the website BEETHOVEN.COM?  Well, ponder no further:

   http://www.beethoven.com/   (http://www.beethoven.com/)

Hopefully, this is merely "phase 1" of a multiphased development effort for BEETHOVEN.COM .......  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 17, 2007, 05:19:26 AM
Music Review: Quartet hindered by its ultra-refined approach
Wednesday, October 17, 2007
By Andrew Druckenbrod, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Late Beethoven and Shostakovich string quartets approach pure thought in music, but chamber musicians still can overthink them.

The Alexander String Quartet, which opened the Pittsburgh Chamber Music Society's season Monday night, tried too hard to attain sublimity instead of letting the music achieve it.

The Alexander -- Zakarias Grafilo and Frederick Lifsitz, violins, Paul Yarbrough, viola, and Sandy Wilson, cello -- interestingly play a set of similar carbon fiber bows from the German bow-maker Arcus. But the group's demure interpretations at Carnegie Music Hall had nothing to do with lightweight bows.

The ensemble was excellent, but the Alexander went for an ultra-refined reading of a pair of already sublime works and, to my ears, lost their continuity of line.

In residence at Allegheny College but based in San Francisco, the Alexander is no stranger to the world's top stages. Formed in 1981, the group still has two founding members (Wilson and Yarbrough) and has recorded the complete quartet cycles of the two composers it featured at the concert, Beethoven and Shostakovich.

But if this music was familiar to them, it was a difficult program for an audience: Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue No. 15 (arranged by Grafilo), his Quartet No. 9 in E-flat Major and Beethoven's celebrated Quartet in C-sharp Minor, Op. 131. Beethoven's quartet is a late work in seven movements. It is ushered in from afar by a deliberate fugue and ends with an angular theme. Heard for the first time on the PCMS series, Shostakovich's Ninth has five movements performed without breaks and is full of arresting musical shifts. Both are masterpieces marked by introspection.

But the Alexander didn't help by leaving the music sitting on the stage. The quartet was constantly pulling back in volume and performing with a thin timbre, and the resulting lack of presence was enervating to the music. Adagios in the Shostakovich quartet (1964) lacked smoldering intensity; those of the Beethoven (1826) sagged. Rhythmic highlights, such as the former's rollicking finale and the latter's brisk Presto, were flat.

Simply put, the readings were largely dry and cerebral, when emotion churns throughout these works despite their sometimes stark surfaces.

We will likely get a more engaging performance when the Alexander returns to PCMS in the spring for a more visceral program, with works by John Adams, Terry Riley, Wayne Peterson and middle-period Beethoven. This is a veteran group that clearly knows its stuff and has its own style, but Monday it would have been better to play out more.

First published on October 17, 2007 at 12:00 am
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: JoshLilly on October 17, 2007, 07:22:24 AM
"tried too hard to attain sublimity instead of letting the music achieve it."


What the hell does that mean?! Am I the only one that finds these types of comments from music reviewers completely nonsensical?? It's almost as stupid as wine critics who attribute attitudes like "presumption" to fermented grape juice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: locrian on October 17, 2007, 07:24:09 AM
Quote from: JoshLilly on October 17, 2007, 07:22:24 AM
"tried too hard to attain sublimity instead of letting the music achieve it."


What the hell does that mean?! Am I the only one that finds these types of comments from music reviewers completely nonsensical?? It's almost as stupid as wine critics who attribute attitudes like "presumption" to fermented grape juice.

Sounds like they were milking it when it didn't need to be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: JoshLilly on October 17, 2007, 07:27:37 AM
"Milking it", what does that mean? Playing too slow, too fast, changing tempi in mid-movement? Too loud, too soft, using unmarked dynamics? The reviewer later comments that he felt the players had too much of a thin, quiet sound. That kind of comment makes sense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: sound sponge on October 17, 2007, 07:24:09 AM
Sounds like they were milking it when it didn't need to be.

And yet, that appears to be precisely the opposite of what he says in the rest of the article.  :-\

(I don't read reviews or criticism, I listen to the music instead)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on October 17, 2007, 11:08:19 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 07:29:06 AM
I don't read reviews or criticism, I listen to the music instead

8)

A most wise behaviour.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 18, 2007, 04:18:12 AM
Dallas Symphony Orchestra's Beethoven Festival


For the first time the Dallas Symphony Orchestra performs all nine of Beethoven's symphonies in sequential order during this five weekend-long festival. Four conductors will lead, including director Jaap van Zweden.

Schedule:
Oct. 19-21: Symphonies 1, 2 and Stravinsky's Concerto for piano and Winds; Gilbert Varga, conductor, Kirill Gerstein, piano
Oct. 25-27: Symphonies 3, 4; Markus Stenz, conductor
Nov. 1-4: Symphonies 5, 6; Jaap van Zweden, conductor.
Nov. 8-11: Symphonies 6, 8 and Fidelio Overture; Van Zweden, conductor
Nov. 29-Dec. 2: Symphony No. 9 and Schoenberg's Survivor from Warsaw; Jirí Behlolávek, conductor
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2007, 04:22:14 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 07:29:06 AM
And yet, that appears to be precisely the opposite of what he says in the rest of the article.  :-\

(I don't read reviews or criticism, I listen to the music instead)

8)

What reviews?  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 18, 2007, 04:23:15 AM
Dan Bar Moo Fin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeD8ckihN8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 18, 2007, 08:25:00 AM
2 new Beethoven recordings

CLASSICAL CD REVIEWS: Accomplished violinists try their hands at Beethoven pairing

          1. Beethoven -- AViolin Concerto & Kreutzer Sonata. Isabelle Faust (Harmonia Mundi)
          2. Beethoven -- A-Violin Concerto & Kreutzer Sonata. Vadim Repin (DG)

12:00 AM CDT on Saturday, September 29, 2007

By LAWSON TAITTE / The Dallas Morning News

What are the odds that two releases with this unprecedented (but logical) coupling, both so interesting, should come along the same month?

Isabelle Faust, fast becoming one of the world's most interesting violinists, takes a stylish approach to these two masterpieces, informed by period insights but basically modern. Vadim Repin, now attaining the patina of middle-aged master in this label debut, exhibits an unreconstructed and unashamed old-fashioned heroism.

Ms. Faust, accompanied by the Prague Philharmonic under Jiri Behlohlavek (once a frequent Dallas Symphony guest), gives the Violin Concerto one of its most interesting performances ever. Certainly it's my current favorite. She marches through the first movement at a relatively rapid pace, but doesn't stint on delicacy in all those filigrees. Beethoven wrote no cadenzas for the violin in this work, but he did create some for the piano adaptation he made. Ms. Faust reworks those and turns them into a personal triumph. You may never want to hear any other cadenza after you hear her tear through this one, with its timpani accompaniment.

She's also spiritual and heartfelt in the quasi-religious Adagio – but that's where Mr. Repin comes into his own in a deeply moving performance. The Vienna Philharmonic under Riccardo Muti plays the first movement for grandeur and majesty. Mr. Repin contributes a very detailed commentary on his fiddle, but it's all rather slow by modern standards. In the finale, Mr. Repin is playful, but Ms. Faust builds up more momentum.

The Kreutzer Sonata, arguably the first work Beethoven wrote to reveal his full stature, finds Mr. Repin paired with the world's most legendary pianist, Martha Argerich. If he lets her take the lead in this fiery performance, that's understandable. The team also gives the variations more weight than usual, making them look forward to much later Beethoven.

Ms. Faust, with her wonderful duet partner Alexander Melnikov, is more subdued and thoughtful, but this is also a first-class Kreutzer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NSzza8lfL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416YrC0gieL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2007, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 18, 2007, 08:25:00 AM


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NSzza8lfL._SS400_.jpg)

Love the artwork here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 19, 2007, 04:46:07 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 18, 2007, 04:43:14 PM
Love the artwork here.

Isn't that awesome.  It just "speaks" BEETHOVEN!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 19, 2007, 04:48:36 AM
Bogey has undertaken a thread on  LvB's 4th Symphony  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3932.msg94845.html#msg94845) ....... and it illbehooves anyone to eschew active participation in this newly minted LvB 4 thread.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 19, 2007, 04:01:23 PM
Boston's Handel and Haydn Society Opens 2007-08 Season with Beethoven
By Matthew Westphal
19 Oct 2007



The Handel and Haydn Society of Boston, the oldest continuously active performing arts organization in the United States, opens its 2007-08 season tonight by playing an all-Beethoven program at no less a venue than the city's Symphony Hall.

Grant Llewellyn, H&H's principal conductor, leads the Society's period-instrument orchestra in the Symphony No. 7 and the Piano Concerto No. 3, with Kristian Bezuidenhout playing an early 19th-century Graf fortepiano. They'll repeat the program on Sunday, Oct. 21, at 3 p.m.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2007, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 19, 2007, 04:01:23 PM
Boston's Handel and Haydn Society Opens 2007-08 Season with Beethoven
By Matthew Westphal
19 Oct 2007



The Handel and Haydn Society of Boston, the oldest continuously active performing arts organization in the United States, opens its 2007-08 season tonight by playing an all-Beethoven program at no less a venue than the city's Symphony Hall.

Grant Llewellyn, H&H's principal conductor, leads the Society's period-instrument orchestra in the Symphony No. 7 and the Piano Concerto No. 3, with Kristian Bezuidenhout playing an early 19th-century Graf fortepiano. They'll repeat the program on Sunday, Oct. 21, at 3 p.m.



Drat! I bet Karl is there  ( ;D ), wish I was... :'(

8)

----------------
Now playing: Bia 406 Op 55 Symphony #3 in Eb (HIP) - Les Concert de Nations / Jordi Savall - Bia 406 Op 55 Symphony #3 in Eb 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 05:54:19 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2007, 04:29:19 PM
Drat! I bet Karl is there  ( ;D ), wish I was... :'(

Gurn, that concert would have so delighted you .........  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 05:58:15 AM
Here's an interesting concert:

Liszt: Totentanz
LvB: Choral Fantasy
Proko: Alexander Nevsky

S.F. Symphony, Masur deliver a spirited 'Nevsky'
By Richard Scheinin
Mercury News
Article Launched: 10/20/2007 01:39:36 AM PDT




The temptation is to begin a review of Thursday's concert by the San Francisco Symphony and its famous guest conductor, Kurt Masur, with a long description of "Alexander Nevsky," the cantata by Prokofiev about a 13th-century Russian warrior and hero.

After all, it blasted and swirled through Davies Symphony Hall with sounds of clashing swords and joyful shouts from the orchestra and its 141-voice chorus. And it's a historical curiosity, too, this Slavic extravaganza, adapted from Prokofiev's score to the 1938 film of the same name by Sergei Eisenstein.

But Thursday's program, which repeats tonight and Sunday afternoon, was so deliciously overstuffed - first Liszt, then Beethoven, then Prokofiev - that "Nevsky," which closed the concert, will have to wait.

So let's talk first about pianist Louis Lortie, a fabulous player who tore like a champion race-car driver through a pair of exciting and difficult works, "Totentanz" in d minor ("The Dance of Death")by Liszt and the "Choral Fantasy" by Beethoven. And let's talk more about Masur, the lanky aristocrat with the clipped white beard, who, during the Liszt, had a way of poking his index fingers in the air, funny little tapping gestures that somehow elicited waves of response from the orchestra. "Totentanz," from 1865, opened the program. It might as well be a piano concerto, but is technically a set of variations for piano and orchestra on "Dies Irae" ("Day of Wrath"), the 13th-century Latin hymn describing the Last Judgment. Cutting to the chase, "Totentanz" is a piece about death by the death-obsessed Liszt, and devilishly hard to play.

Lortie had fun with it, starting with deep spiked chords and left-handed jack-hammerings, summoning timpani and full strings, before heading into power mode, knuckling up and down the white keys - sleigh-riding! - with a delighted little smile, then moving into a death gallop, the strings riffing behind him.

His cadenza was full of gossamer filigree, giving way to a cat-and-mouse game with the orchestra, the theme passing from one section to the next, Masur giving it a nudge with the jut of an elbow or a hunched shoulder, and Lortie, near the end, becoming a two-handed blur.

As the applause mounted, he left the stage, presumably to drink a large glass of water, then returned for the "Choral Fantasy," from 1808, which is every bit as demanding. It, too, is a set of variations on a theme, one you will recognize because it is so similar to "Ode to Joy" from Beethoven's Symphony No. 9, completed in 1824.

The "Choral Fantasy" begins with faux improvisatory piano flights, thick with notes and neatly handled by Lortie, who then did some light sparring with strings, flutes and oboes, the piece ebbing and flowing through pastoral fantasias and mounting toward the chorus's entrance and the Big Melody. Masur, who looks like Father Christmas, pointed to the balcony behind the stage where six soloists in the San Francisco Symphony Chorus sang about peace, joy and the blessing of the gods (words penned, it's thought, by Christoph Kuffner).

This wasn't a faultless performance; notes were smudged here and there, entrances weren't airtight, some of the upstairs soloists seemed nervous. But the spirit of the music-making was bountiful.

Likewise for "Alexander Nevsky," which owes its birth to Stalin, who wanted, in the 1930s, to warn the Russian people about the dangers of German aggression. He hired Eisenstein, who based his first dramatic sound film on the story of the Grand Duke Alexander of Novgorod, winner of a famous battle at the River Neva, and therefore dubbed "Alexander of the Neva," or "Alexander Nevsky."

Prokofiev's soundtrack is the source of his cantata, from 1939, which tours cinematically through the subsequent story: the Motherland's invasion by German warriors and their defeat by Nevsky's meager Russian forces on frozen Lake Chudskoye in 1242.

If you go, you will hear lamenting oboes and ominously thrumming strings, great Latin chants and an infectious folk-derived melody for chorus ("Arise, People of Russia"), as well as the sounds of swords whacking, ice cracking and then a young woman's lament over "The Field of the Dead" (mezzo-soprano Nancy Maultsby sang the aria with a witness's grief) and those last victory shouts of Mother Russia.

As good as it was, I'm guessing that this weekend's performances will be tighter and even beefier, with the chorus, which sounded slightly undernourished Thursday, stepping up its impact to cap an unusually complex and rewarding program.


San Francisco Symphony and Chorus

Kurt Masur, guest conductor; Louis Lortie, piano;

Nancy Maultsby, mezzo-soprano

mercurynews

Where Davies Symphony Hall, 201 Van Ness Ave.,

San Francisco

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 06:07:34 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2007, 04:29:19 PM
I bet Karl is there 

Boston is a happening place:

Quartet gains a toehold in Boston
By Jeremy Eichler, Globe Staff  |  October 20, 2007

CAMBRIDGE - The classical music scene in this country is bursting with ambitious young string quartets, and at the moment, two up-and-coming ensembles are gaining toeholds in the Boston area. The Chiara String Quartet will be the Blodgett artists-in-residence at Harvard beginning next fall, and the Pacifica Quartet has already begun a three-year residency at the Longy School of Music. The latter group is based in Illinois, but the players will teach at Longy for a concentrated period each semester, and the ensemble will give regular performances, as it did Thursday night at Pickman Concert Hall.

The Pacifica's members are still young, but the group has been around for more than a decade. They are confident interpreters of the standard repertoire and also fearless exponents of contemporary music (Exhibit A: they will traverse all five quartets by Elliott Carter on a single program this season in New York). Their concert on Thursday effectively balanced two cornerstones of the literature - a Beethoven Quartet (Op. 59, No. 3) and a Beethoven-obsessed Mendelssohn Quartet (Op. 13) - with a 20th-century masterpiece, Ligeti's Quartet No. 1, "Métamorphoses Nocturnes."
The Mendelssohn came first, and as was evident from the opening slow chorale, the group possesses a well-blended, dark-amber sound, polished at a medium gloss. Masumi Rostad (viola) and Brandon Vamos (cello) provide a smooth and elegant grounding in the bass, and Simin Ganatra (first violin) and Sibbi Bernhardsson (second violin) play brilliantly together, though they are a less seamless match in temperament. The outer movements of the Mendelssohn brim with stormy lyricism, and the Pacifica navigated both of them with a winning blend of ensemble precision and expressive heat. The third movement was very clearly etched, though it might have benefited from a somewhat lighter touch and a more diaphanous ensemble sound.

Ligeti's First Quartet, written in 1953-54, essentially picks up where the Bartok quartets leave off. The piece's 12 short movements are strung together and built on a concise four-note motive that gets sliced, diced, and transformed in every way imaginable. In what was the strongest performance of the night, the Pacifica players gave themselves over completely to the work's haunting extraterrestrial soundscapes. Without shying away from the music's violent extremes and gnashing dissonances, they stayed attuned to its sudden flashes of irony and humor, and for that matter, its moments of serene beauty.

The Pacifica dispatched the Beethoven with impressive clarity and commitment, even if the reading had room to continue deepening. There is perhaps more pathos to be found in the doleful waves of the second movement, and the turbocharged fugal finale, which features about six of the most exhilarating minutes of chamber music ever written, had a slightly restrained quality, short on the surging momentum and volcanic power that the best readings can convey.

Still, at intermission, several students in the audience could be heard making awestruck comments about the Ligeti. The Pacifica is clearly an excellent young ensemble whose members should inspire those they teach. Longy is wise to have recruited them.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Varg on October 20, 2007, 09:05:32 AM
His "Moonlight" Sonata (1st movement) is such a powerful work. I like it slow and heavy, and Alain Lefevre's interpretation is my favorite so far.

The second movement of his 7th Symphony is another favorite, conducted by Monsieur Fürtwangler.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 21, 2007, 11:36:35 AM
Nice Avatar, Varg ..........

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 21, 2007, 11:37:36 AM
As to LvB 4 ........ says one GMG'er ......


Quote from: Iago on October 21, 2007, 10:45:39 AM
Best Beethoven 4th in captivity. The joyousness of the music making is overwhelming.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AHMDB7P8L._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 06:23:25 AM
Waldstein on fortepiano 1/3

http://www.youtube.com/v/TjZJvQTV_M8

According to the YoutubeTM blurb:

"Beethoven's sonata Waltstein Aurora played on a fortepiano, the early version of our modern piano, in fact the transition between the harpsichord and our pianoforte. The fortepiano is tuned at 420Hz as was usually done in Beethoven's period, and not 440Hz as is mostly done actually ....."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 06:24:43 AM
Waldstein on fortepiano  3/3

http://www.youtube.com/v/dhrqJj62hPg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Varg on October 22, 2007, 06:50:59 AM
I have to add another great Beethoven conductor/performer: Barenboim. I received his symphonies/sonatas cycles today. Only listened to the 5th and 7th symphonies (and some sonatas) so far. He seems to bettering what i like so much about Fürtwangler; in fact, i'm so impress that Fürtwangler may never find his way to my CD player again (i'm only half kidding here)!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: premont on October 22, 2007, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: D Minor

... a fortepiano, the early version of our modern piano, in fact the transition between the harpsichord and our pianoforte. ....

I am speechless ?????????
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2007, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: D Minor on October 22, 2007, 06:23:25 AM
Waldstein on fortepiano 1/3

Beethoven's sonata Waltstein Aurora played on a fortepiano, the early version of our modern piano, in fact the transition between the harpsichord and our pianoforte. The fortepiano is tuned at 420Hz as was usually done in Beethoven's period, and not 440Hz as is mostly done actually .....

If in fact the fortepiano is transitional, it is only temporally. Harpsichords pluck, fortepianos (and pianos) hammer. They do indeed fill the time period between the cembalo and the pianoforte, but that is the only real transitional position they occupy. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 12:13:09 PM
From The Times
October 22, 2007

Gabrieli Consort/McCreesh
Geoff Brown at the Barbican


For 25 years now Paul McCreesh's Gabrieli Consort and Players have been ferreting around performing early, Renaissance and Baroque music in imaginative and uplifting ways. But modern music can't be denied forever. Last Thursday they reached 1823.

It's the year that Beethoven finished his Missa Solemnis. From other composers, the title could intimate a marble slab, monumental, almost funereal. With Beethoven that was never possible. Yet the vivacity that McCreesh's team brought to the notes still slapped us in the face. Numbers on stage were modest, but the decibels were not.

And with the full-throated choir, the plangent woodwinds, the four natural horns, and gut-string violins stripped of all Vaseline, clarity and colour reigned supreme: such a change from the acoustic fog of Westminster Cathedral's Monteverdi Vespers performed a few days before.

Most of McCreesh's quartet of soloists matched the chorus in ebullience. The exception was the tenor Werner Güra. In lieder recitals he's reliably expressive; here, until the final Agnus Dei, he was the sandwich filling that you couldn't taste.

Maybe he felt intimidated by his right-hand neighbour, the mezzo Christianne Stotijn, who sang with 110 per cent commitment, the tone effulgent, the mouth open wide – what a joy to be her dentist. In ringing declaration Susan Gritton and Neal Davies, soprano and bass, came a good second and third; though during the Sanctus every voice played second fiddle to the fiddle of the musicians' leader Catherine Martin, circling above in her solo with exceptional, melting beauty.

Was this performance too crisp and energetic to do complete justice to the work's grandeur? The question hung in the air, nibbling a little at the pleasure. In the Credo an ensemble lurch in McCreesh's sprinting finale showed the risks of speeding; at times we needed sunglasses to shield us from the music's glare.

Yet, in the end, not much stature was lost. Beethoven wasn't writing for church mice, and the Gabrielis sent us back into the world cleaned, revived, sanctified for the battles ahead. They should perform more modern music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 12:18:49 PM
Time Out Chicago / Issue 138 : October 18, 2007 - October 24, 2007
Tower of London
Brit pianist Paul Lewis always thinks big.

By Marc Geelhoed

(http://www.timeout.com/chicago/resizeImage/htdocs/export_images/138/138.x600.class.paullewis.open.jpg?width=190)

The playing is remarkably direct, with no affectations drawing attention to the performer, no sense of "instructing" the audience about the music's greatness, but at the same time rigorously devoted to it. English pianist Paul Lewis's ongoing recording cycle—currently at the halfway point—of Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas captures the elegance of the works as well as their visceral rage. Lewis, 35, also proves himself to be as eloquent in discussing the sonatas as he is in playing them. He's touring Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto with the London Symphony as part of Sir Colin Davis's 80th birthday celebration, which makes its local stop Monday 22.  (http://www.timeout.com/chicago/article/classical/23436/tower-of-london)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: tiroirdelmare on October 23, 2007, 05:59:41 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2007, 09:43:30 AM
If in fact the fortepiano is transitional, it is only temporally. Harpsichords pluck, fortepianos (and pianos) hammer. They do indeed fill the time period between the cembalo and the pianoforte, but that is the only real transitional position they occupy. :)

8)
I put that video of my wife playing on the fortepiano online. Yeah, that's exactly how I meant it : the clavier instrument that was used in the period between the use of the harpsichord and the modern piano. Still, I'm just writing down this stuff as an amateur, as well for the piano-like-instrument-history as for the English language, any correction is very welcome!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2007, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: tiroirdelmare on October 23, 2007, 05:59:41 AM
I put that video of my wife playing on the fortepiano online. Yeah, that's exactly how I meant it : the clavier instrument that was used in the period between the use of the harpsichord and the modern piano. Still, I'm just writing down this stuff as an amateur, as well for the piano-like-instrument-history as for the English language, any correction is very welcome!

Cool! That was quite interesting. I would like to know anything about the background of that particular instrument (maker, year, that sort of thing).

I am personally a great fan of fortepianos (thousands aren't ::) ), and always welcome an opportunity to see/hear one being played. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 06:53:22 AM
LvB VC released 10/23/07 (w/ Egmont & Brahms VS in D)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kXzDZokfL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 07:04:54 AM
Another LvB VC released unto mankind, this time performed by Grimiaux and bundled with Viotti 22

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/Beethoven_Grumiaux_4768477.jpg)

MUSICWEB REVIEW:

*** In this later 1966 LP recording he was partnered by the New Philharmonia under Alceo Galliera and isn't to be confused with the early 1970s recording with the Concertgebouw and Colin Davis – Grumiaux of course made multiple recordings of the Concerto.

Galliera manages to infuse some real metrical tension into the opening orchestral introduction, one that Grumiaux enhances. His trill is of electric velocity, the vibrato perfectly controlled, the gestures classical and pellucid, the phrasing of rapt naturalness. There are no emotive finger position changes that call attention to themselves; everything is directed inward, including the powerful orchestral pianissimo de Waart prepares for Grumiaux throughout the first movement. Refinement and lyricism are the watchwords of the slow movement and the finale, whilst never an adrenalin producer, ratchets enough of its own rhythmic drama to stimulate, educate and enliven. This is playing of elevation and finesse.

The companion concerto is a rather unlikely one from the perspective of a professional player – the college standby of Viotti's A minor [No.22]. This is a work that most players have essayed at some stage though few elite players have committed it to disc, though Menuhin did, and so did Accardo, De Vito, Morini, David Oistrakh and Stern – some have been recorded in concert or privately such as the superb Shumsky piano-accompanied version on Biddulph and a live Kreisler torso. This is a charmer of a performance, long on Gallant charm and garnished with some silkily elegant work in the genial slow movement, and some dashing passagework throughout. Is that a passing passage of poor intonation at 5.55 in the first movement? Never mind.

The Viotti was originally coupled on LP with the then relatively newly rediscovered concerto by Michael Haydn and though it's not the most obvious bedfellow for the Beethoven it's not been re-issued for a good while and I prefer it to yet another re-issue of the two Romances.

Jonathan Woolf
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 07:22:10 AM
How do you like the Schniederhahn, mon vieux?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 07:31:43 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 07:22:10 AM
How do you like the Schniederhahn, mon vieux?

It just so happens that I had asked Terry Barfoot that precise question, for which I received this response:

Wolfgang Schneiderhan (1915-2002) was one of the finest violinists of his generation. He made a successful solo career founded upon the central classics of the concerto and solo repertory. This new compilation therefore captures him on his home territory; and most rewarding it is too. 

To begin with, the recorded sound is thoroughly acceptable in the case of the Brahms sonata, and much better than that in the case of the Beethoven concerto and its attendant overture. Carl Seeman was a sensitive pianist, perfectly suited to the role of duo partner, and the judgements of tempo and balance are well made in this Brahms performance, recorded live at the 1956 Edinburgh Festival. It says much for the stature of these artists that they could command a platform in a major concert venue, usually the preserve of orchestral rather than chamber music. While the sound has little bloom, it is admirable clear and all the details can be heard. What is more, the performance offers many insights, not least in the eloquent violin lines of the second movement Adagio. 

Istvan Kertész developed a highly successful relationship with the London Symphony Orchestra, and their full-toned performance of the Egmont Overture has excellent playing and a recorded sound that has a marvellously full body. This and the attendant concerto recording feature some of the best sound to be encountered in this important BBC Legends series. All credit to the original recording engineers, as to Tony Faulkner's remastering. It seems scarcely credible that the performances took place 43 years ago. 

The performances themselves are impressive too. While that of the Egmont Overture does not really catch fire until the coda, known as the 'Symphony of Victory', the quality of the playing and the orchestral sound provide ample compensation. But for a really powerful and electric Egmont Overture try George Szell and the Vienna Philharmonic, coupled with the complete incidental music (Decca 425 972-2). 

Schneiderhan was a celebrated exponent of the Beethoven concerto and his Deutsche Grammophon recording (447 403) with Eugen Jochum and the Berlin Philharmonic has generally been highly regarded. At the Festival Hall in 1964 he again preferred Beethoven's cadenza with timpani, arranged by the composer from his piano arrangement of the original concerto. He plays throughout with secure and full intonation, aided by a sympathetically warm acoustic, which was well captured by the original recording. Perhaps the microphone placement favours the soloist in the perspective, but that is hardly unusual. Once established the tempi always feel just right in every movement. 

As with the other issues in this series, there is no information about the music, but a full and well researched accompanying note about the artist in focus. This admirable example is by Tully Potter. Perhaps this is selling the project short, since Schneiderhan and Kertész give us an interpretation of the Beethoven Violin Concerto that can stand alongside the best. 

Terry Barfoot
[/color] 

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Oct07/Schneiderhan_bbcl42172.htm)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 07:36:06 AM
Well, I admit I generally expected good things, enjoying the Kertész/LSO account of the Dvořák cycle, and Schniederhahn's recording of the Stravinsky Violin Concerto as well as I do . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: tiroirdelmare on October 23, 2007, 08:10:54 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2007, 06:08:13 AM
Cool! That was quite interesting. I would like to know anything about the background of that particular instrument (maker, year, that sort of thing).

I am personally a great fan of fortepianos (thousands aren't ::) ), and always welcome an opportunity to see/hear one being played. :)

8)

Well, the story I heard from the re-builder was the following :
this fortepiano has been found in the basement of a school in Italy about ten years ago, during the restauration of that school. The masons found it funny to drop cement on the keyboard(!) but when the director of the school saw this he sent the fortepiano to a fortepiano re-builder, who managed to keep the old mechanic with the original leather on the hammers. I remember there were inscriptions of "Wien" on the front of the fortepiano, but don't know about the date.
For me it was the first time I saw a fortepiano and even my wife said it was so fantastic to play on it that she would never play the waldstein on a modern piano anymore :) But I guess that was just an emotional reaction, knowing her ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 09:06:03 AM
Note to Gurn: during next roadtrip to Italy, investigate the basements of old schools and churches ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 02:20:00 PM
Twelve Things You Probably Didn't Know About Beethoven
By Laurie Shulman
23 Oct 2007


In honor of the Dallas Symphony's Beethoven Festival (Oct. 18-Nov. 11 and Nov. 29-Dec 2), a dozen tasty bits of trivia.



Many music lovers consider Beethoven to be the greatest musical genius who ever lived. The literature about him is expansive, since scholars continue to examine every aspect of his life and works. The general public has been no less curious, flocking to films such as Bernard Rose's Immortal Beloved (1994). Consequently, we know more about Beethoven than other composers--or think we do. Even seasoned concertgoers, however, may be surprised at some unusual information about his background, life, and colorful personality. Consider the following:

1. Beethoven's grandfather, also named Ludwig [Louis] van Beethoven (1712-1773), was the first of three generations of Beethoven musicians. Born in Antwerp, he later moved to Bonn to take the position of Hofkapellmeister in the court of Elector Maximilian Friedrich of Cologne.

2. Under the tutelage of his most important instructor, Christian Gottlob Neefe, Beethoven learned Bach's complete Well-Tempered Clavier, 48 preludes and fugues that were not well known in the 1780s. He was playing them by memory in his early teens.

3. Beethoven's first professional position was as court organist to Elector Max Franz in 1784. Five years later, he was playing viola in the elector's court orchestra; he was also a capable violinist.

4. Jerome Bonaparte, Napoleon's youngest brother and king of Westphalia at the height of Napoleon's empire, offered Beethoven the position of Kapellmeister in 1808. (The composer declined.)

5. After a visit to Vienna in 1817, the English piano maker Thomas Broadwood sent Beethoven a six-octave grand piano. According to Broadwood's biographer David Wainwright, "The case was Spanish mahogany, inlaid with marquetry and ormolu, the brass carrying-handles formed as laurel wreaths." Beethoven's name was inscribed along with a Latin translation noting the gift. Broadwood enlisted five other musicians to autograph the instrument, including the pianists Frederic Kalkbrenner and Johann Baptist Cramer. Franz Liszt acquired the instrument around 1846. Eventually he presented it to the Hungarian National Museum in Budapest.

6. Twelve museums in five European countries are devoted to Beethoven. Four of them are in Vienna, where he lived for most of his life, moving frequently within the city.

7. Beethoven's favorite composers were Mozart, Haydn, Bach, and Handel (he preferred Handel to Bach). Among older composers, he also revered Palestrina. Although he was critical of most contemporaries, he admired the operas of Spontini and Cherubini.

8. The concept of heroism, and specifically the death of a hero, is a recurrent theme in such great Beethoven works as the "Eroica" Symphony, the oratorio Christ on the Mount of Olives, Op. 85, and the incidental music to Goethe's Egmont. But heroism surfaced much earlier in Beethoven's music. His first known composition was a funeral cantata from 1781 that has not survived; in 1790 the city of Bonn commissioned him to write the Cantata on the Death of the Emperor Joseph II. We know it as WoO 87.

9. Most major composers have a thematic catalogue compiled by scholars. Bach has the Schmieder catalogue, abbreviated S. (or BWV for Bach Werke Verzeichnis); Mozart has the Köchel catalogue (source of the K. number); and Schubert the Deutsch catalogue (abbreviated D). Beethoven has multiple catalogues. Four 19th-century efforts were superseded by Georg Kinsky and Hans Halm's Das Werk Beethovens: Thematisch-Bibliographisches Verzeichnis in 1955, which is the standard. Kinsky and Halm included a special category, WoO, which stands for Werk ohne Opuszahl, or "work without opus number." Willy Hess published another catalogue in 1957 that catalogues Beethoven's unfinished works and sketches.

10. Dozens of Beethoven's conversation books survive from 1818 until 1827. They reflect thoughts communicated to the deaf composer by his friends, family, and associates, but not his own comments since he usually responded verbally. Consequently, these books, while a valuable biographical source, require the reader to reconstruct Beethoven's half of the conversation. They are filled with details about everyday life, from gossip to family matters to medical maladies to weather. Comparatively few of the entries pertain to Beethoven's music.

11. The familiar images of Beethoven show a craggy-faced man with wild, longish gray hair. All surviving portraits depict him as clean-shaven. During his last decade, however, he frequently allowed his beard to grow long, adding to his bizarre appearance. In these later years, most Viennese assumed that the famous composer, noted for his eccentricity, was more than a bit insane.

12. In addition to deafness, Beethoven suffered from lifelong bouts of intestinal disorders, beginning in his teens. Modern physicians who have analyzed reports of his stomach complaints and contemporary diagnoses believe that he may have suffered from Crohn's disease, a chronic, recurrent inflammatory enteritis. His final illness was cirrhosis of the liver. At the time, his death was attributed to abdominal dropsy (the modern term is ascites, an accumulation of fluid in the peritoneal cavity of the abdomen). A recent theory put forward this past summer asserts that he may have been inadvertently poisoned by lead by his final physician, exacerbating his liver condition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on October 23, 2007, 02:22:46 PM
Another fact I recently discovered about Beethoven: his family were of Dutch origin, and their surname 'Beethoven' simpy means 'Beet garden'.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 02:22:46 PM
Another fact I recently discovered about Beethoven: his family were of Dutch origin, and their surname 'Beethoven' simpy means 'Beet garden'.

I just read that yesterday as well ........ "hoven" means "garden", and, apparently, "beet" means "beet" ........


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 08:22:57 AM
 Beethoven's cello pieces are the first sonatas in the history of music to treat the cello as an equal partner for the piano. Recording the deaf maestro's complete sonatas is meaningful in that one can ruminate the very essence of his life and works. *** Beethoven's five cello sonatas represent all of what is commonly considered his three periods, from the Classic period, when he was searching to find his own identity to get away from the shadow of Mozart and Hayden, and to have his own musical world; from the Romantic period, when Beethoven achieved his highest artistic goals; and finally the Spiritual period, ``where he really reaches out in his inner feelings and translates that into the art, which is called music,'' ***  (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2007/10/135_12492.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lethevich on October 24, 2007, 08:28:52 AM
Quote from: Mark on October 23, 2007, 02:22:46 PM
Another fact I recently discovered about Beethoven: his family were of Dutch origin, and their surname 'Beethoven' simpy means 'Beet garden'.

I thought it meant "beetroot farmer" or something. I recall reading in numerous places that while his name (the van instead of von, especially) is obviously of Dutch origin, his family had been well established in Germany for several generations.

Edit: I assume that the things I read on this were written to debunk the occasional "Beethoven was almost the best Dutch composer" claim :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 08:34:24 AM
Quote from: Lethe on October 24, 2007, 08:28:52 AM
I thought it meant "beetroot farmer" or something.

Well, a "beet" is a "root" ........ And a "farm" is a "garden" of sorts ........ Thus, "beet garden" = "beetroot farmer"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 24, 2007, 09:22:59 AM
Or, perhaps, as many Flemish towns have names ending in -hove, Beethoven's ancestors may have come from Beet Town.

To a Bostonian, this has the ring of truth.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 02:58:15 PM


Russian Roulette
Pianist Olga Kern alternates between grace and bombast at the Schermerhorn


by John Pitcher

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)


Turgid Pianist Olga Kern It must have been warhorse night over at the Schermerhorn Symphony Center. Last weekend, the Nashville Symphony Orchestra under Albert-George Schram devoted much of its program to two of the most well-worn blockbusters in the repertoire: Beethoven's "Emperor" Piano Concerto and Tchaikovsky's "Pathétique" Symphony. Both works were splendidly—though not always subtly—performed.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Russian-born pianist Olga Kern was on hand for the Beethoven, and not surprisingly she brought her usual bombs-away style. But she also brought a degree of warmth, sophistication and lyricism that was, at least for this pianist, both welcome and surprising.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Kern certainly has an interesting story. A decade ago, she arrived at the 10th quadrennial Van Cliburn International Piano Competition as a rather ordinary-looking brunette named Olga Pushechnikova, and because of her unfocused playing she never advanced beyond the preliminary round. Fast-forward to 2001 and the 11th Cliburn Competition. The pianist has a new name (Kern), a new look (a blond in a hot red dress) and a new approach to piano playing (basically bombastic). She took no prisoners in her bracing account of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 during the final round and won the gold.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

In the years since, Kern has understandably developed the reputation of a piano-pounding daredevil, yet in Nashville last week she also revealed polish and poetry. Beethoven's "Emperor" concerto is itself a remarkable synthesis of the heroic and the poetic, and Kern gave both qualities their due. There was plenty of sparkle and dazzle in her performance of the concerto's outer movements, but there was also considerable grace—she played trills and ornaments with rice-paper-like delicacy, and she approached the slow movement with the immediacy of a love song. Schram and the NSO, likewise, played down the regal pomp in the "Emperor" and instead performed with heartfelt exuberance.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Kern saved the fireworks for her two solo encores. The first, a Rachmaninoff arrangement of Mussorgsky's Hopak, was played with muscle and athleticism. Her performance of Rimsky-Korsakov's Flight of the Bumblebee (another Rachmaninoff arrangement), on the other hand, was played at such a blistering speed that it was almost unrecognizable. It was breathtaking to be sure. But it wasn't very musical.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Schram and the NSO opened last week's concert with American composer Russell Peck's Gabriel. Lasting all of six minutes, this concert overture shows the archangel in three different guises—as the messenger who told Mary that she would give birth to the Savior Jesus; as the angel who gave the Koran to Mohammed; and as the trumpeter who would herald the end of the world.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

On a superficial level, Peck's score certainly seemed to suggest all of these scenarios, from the sweetness and light of the Annunciation to the minor-key darkness of the apocalypse. All the same, the music was so short, so sweet and so predictable (in his program notes the composer likens his score to a movie soundtrack) that you had to wonder: would one of God's mightiest preternatural creations really march to the beat of a musical bonbon?

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

There was little subtlety in the NSO's reading of the Tchaikovsky "Pathétique" Symphony, in large part because the orchestra's resident conductor Albert-George Schram seemed to know only two conducting gestures—give me a big sound, and give me a really big sound. (At one point, Schram may have been attempting a third gesture of give me a really, REALLY big sound when he lost his grip on the baton, which went flying toward the first violin section.)

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

The musicians, for their collective part, made the most of Schram's conducting style, and in the process delivered a "Pathétique" Symphony that sounded intensely Russian—their passion was more febrile, their melancholy was darker and their climaxes were edgier. The hyperemotional Tchaikovsky no doubt would have approved.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2007, 03:04:55 PM
Interesting description of her: wonder what she looks like... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Schubert: Winterreise - Martiti Talvela / Ralf Gothoni - Die Nebensonnen ('Drei Sonnen sah ich'), song for voice & piano (Winterreise), D. 911/23 (Op. 89/23)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 03:17:56 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2007, 03:04:55 PM
wonder what she looks like... :)

That's really shallow of you, Gurn ....... anyhow, we have no idea what she looks like ........

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 03:27:36 PM
Olga Kern playing the D Minor PC of Rach

http://www.youtube.com/v/f8hiYyZ440k
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2007, 04:12:52 PM
Quote from: D Minor on October 24, 2007, 03:17:56 PM
That's really shallow of you, Gurn ....... anyhow, we have no idea what she looks like ........



;D

Aw, now, d, how could I resist that? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Soler Works for 2 Organs - Mathot / Koopman - Soler Concerto #1 in C for 2 Organs 2nd mvmt
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scsinger01 on October 24, 2007, 04:39:28 PM
so tonight im going to listen to the 9th symphony in it's fullness :D  i have coffee (not to keep awake, just to add to the atmosphere) and a bag of sunchips. wish me luck
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 25, 2007, 08:12:54 AM
Quote from: scsinger01 on October 24, 2007, 04:39:28 PM
so tonight im going to listen to the 9th symphony in it's fullness :D  i have coffee (not to keep awake, just to add to the atmosphere) and a bag of sunchips. wish me luck

Which of the 219 versions will you be listening to?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 25, 2007, 08:14:56 AM


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/3015_coverpic.jpg)

Dating from the late 1950s, these generally fine performances show Solti's consistency as a Beethoven interpreter. In fact, timings are virtually identical to his later versions (give or take a repeat or two). Even at this comparatively early date a craggy directness entirely appropriate to Beethoven characterized the conductor's approach--and how many contemporaries at the time took the exposition repeat in the Eroica's first movement? (CLICK FOR MORE)  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3015)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 25, 2007, 08:18:32 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11244_coverpic.jpg)

LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN
Piano Concerto No. 5 "Emperor"; Piano Sonata No. 28 in A major Op. 101
Hélène Grimaud (piano) / Staatskapelle Dresden / Vladimir Jurowski
Deutsche Grammophon- B0009840-02(CD)

This is without question the best recording that Hélène Grimaud has made for DG. The opening "Emperor" gushes forth like a sparkling fountain, at a freshly invigorating basic tempo. Give credit to Vladimir Jurowski for his excellent collaboration, and to a Staatskapelle Dresden that really stays on top of its collective toes. Grimaud even manages to make something special out of those upward scales that so often signal the pianist's entrances and exits. Only in the slow movement does she indulge in a touch of the preciosity that mars some of her more recent efforts, but it's a fleeting memory at best, and the finale goes with all of the joyful enthusiasm that anyone could ask. (CLICK FOR MORE)  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11244)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 28, 2007, 11:01:35 AM
October 27, 2007
Beethoven's Evolution, From Playful to Grand
By ALLAN KOZINN
fr NYT.com
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/27/arts/schiffspan.jpg)

If your yardstick is whether a work is well known, chronological surveys of Beethoven's piano sonatas move slowly at first: It isn't until the Sonata No. 8 in C minor (Op. 13) that the first nickname ("Pathétique") appears. Yet the "Pathétique" was composed in 1798, still early in the story; it was another six years before the "Eroica" made Beethoven a bona fide symphonic revolutionary.

One thing Andras Schiff is showing in his Carnegie Hall traversal of the sonatas, played in the order Beethoven composed them, is that a handful of relatively small but decisive steps lead from the Haydnesque playfulness and Mozartean elegance of the earliest works to the grand proclamations — sometimes elevated, sometimes brash — of the mature ones.

In the second installment, on Wednesday, the three Opus 10 Sonatas traced that journey vividly. In the Sonata No. 5 in C minor (Op. 10, No. 1), Beethoven begins with a thoroughly Haydnesque theme but is in his own rhythmically jagged territory before the end of the first page. That work's slow movement looks to Mozart in its graceful, singing top line, but in the rippling finale, Beethoven leaves his predecessors behind.

Mr. Schiff, oddly, did not stop between this work and the Sonata No. 6 in F (Op. 10, No. 2), which moves the narrative further by setting graceful themes against dark, brooding accompaniments. But he did pause for a bow before the Sonata No. 7 in D (Op. 10, No. 3), the black sheep of this trilogy and the most dramatic: Some of its rumbling figuration seems almost to nip at the heels of the "Pathétique," composed a few months later. In Mr. Schiff's reading, the Seventh Sonata looked ahead in other ways too. He played the Menuetto, for example, with a fluidity that made it sound, if only for an instant, like Chopin.

The "Pathétique" had the second half of the program to itself, and Mr. Schiff played it with a thrilling tempestuousness. His readings of all four works had elements in common that say a lot about the current fashion in Beethoven playing. Tempos were brisk, for example, and movements proceeded at speed to the last note, with no hint of rallentando.

Chordal passages (and not only those marked sforzando) were played with an assertive sharpness that sometimes made them sound like brash interruptions amid more courtly surroundings: just the kind of thing Beethoven would do. On the other hand, in music marked pianissimo (or even simply piano), Mr. Schiff made no concession to the size of the hall: these passages were whispered.

Mr. Schiff was generous to a fault in his encore. He played Bach's Partita in C minor (BWV 826), complete and with all the sectional repeats.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 01, 2007, 05:03:51 PM
 Classical CD Highlights: November  (http://www.playbillarts.com/news/article/7303.html)
By Michael S. Markowitz
01 Nov 2007


Beethoven: String Quartets, Op. 18 (Harmonia Mundi HMU 907436)
Beethoven: Late Quartets (Philips Originals 289 475 8685)
Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 9 (Hyperion CDA 67611)


The Tokyo String Quartet continues its Beethoven cycle with the master's first six essays in the genre, the Op. 18 set. The album, a two-disc set priced like a single disc, follows the Tokyo's acclaimed recording of the "Rasumovsky" Quartets.

Philips releases, at a budget price, the Quartetto Italiano's performances of the composer's late quartets. The three-CD set completes the reissue on Philips Originals of the Italiano's entire Beethoven cycle, considered one of the finer ones.

The London Haydn Quartet plays the Op. 9 quartets of guess-who on a new Hyperion release. The set, another two-for-one issue, marks the ensemble's label debut.

A work often played by string quartets, Haydn's Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross, is performed in its orchestral version by Jordi Savall and his Le Concert des Nations. The recording, made in the Spanish church that was the site of the work's first performance, includes biblical quotation in Latin interspersed between the movements.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 04, 2007, 07:53:37 AM
BEETHOVEN, PIANO CONCERTO NO. 4
MOZART, PIANO CONCERTO NO. 24
(http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2007/11/04/reissues_celebrate_great_artists_of_the_past/)

Clara Haskil, piano
Orchestre National de France, conducted by André Cluytens
(Pristine Classical)

Reissues celebrate great artists of the past
By David Perkins, Globe Correspondent  |  November 4, 2007

Whatever you may think of the classical music scene on CD - some say it's dead, some say it's coming back - one thing is certain: Reissues are bringing us some thrilling performances from the past, in improved sound. Here are some of the best recent issues.

LvB 4 / Mozart 24

When the Romanian pianist Clara Haskil died in 1960 at 65, it was the end of a life filled with physical pain and illness. As a child, she had been fitted in a plaster cast to prevent scoliosis. At 45, she had a brain tumor behind one eye surgically removed. When she sat down at the piano, however, this slight, shy, bent woman was transformed into a goddess.

Two CDs of vivid live performances, originally brought out by Music & Arts, have been refurbished by the British firm Pristine Classical. The first is of concertos by Mozart (No. 24 in C Minor) and Beethoven (No. 4 in G), performed in 1955 with the Orchestre National de France, under André Cluytens. The orchestra often suffers from poor tuning and ragged ensemble, and unfortunately Pristine's cleanup job makes this even more evident. But Haskil!

In the Beethoven, the opening chords are a bit hesitant, but the run after the opening orchestral statement flows like water down a sluice. Her tone is bright, the passagework fearless and clear. This is very Mozartian Beethoven: airy, buoyant. The second movement has tragic grandeur and spaciousness and ends with an exhausted sigh. The finale has a few fudged notes, but that's the price paid for excitement and spontaneity.

In the Mozart, the orchestra's all-out playing and fat string tone seem dated in our era of leaner, more pointed playing. But Cluytens sets driving tempos, and Haskil finds all the singing quality and tragic depth in what some consider the greatest of Mozart's 28 concertos.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: c#minor on November 04, 2007, 06:50:35 PM
I was thinking of going to the concert at the Schermerhorn, but i had to go out of town. What a shame i missed out on that one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 05, 2007, 01:25:51 PM
GMG's very own Mark Antony Owen has given this recording of the LvB VC an enthusiastic thumbs-up:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/33/999633.jpg)

Says Mr. Owen:

"Faust takes a good, clean line throughout, tempi never drag (damn you Rostropovich/Vengerov  ), and she uses Beethoven's own cadenzas from his piano transcription of the Violin Concerto - she took Schneiderhan's violin transcriptions of said cadenzas, but re-adapted these a little so that they conform to what Beethoven originally wrote. It's a superb and refreshing performance, and the engineering is a tad less claustrophobic than in the pairing."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 11:51:42 AM
Helene Grimaud -- LvB Piano Sonata no. 30



mvt 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/GVaOeEb_sm0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 11:53:02 AM
mvt 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/TARA7Jf3UK0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 11:55:21 AM
Grimaud LvB PS 30 part III

http://www.youtube.com/v/fIvxFUOxVxI
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 12:02:49 PM
Beethoven was heavily influenced by Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto, ergo, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3dkK1iw2SMk

Uchida performs and conducts Mozart's Piano Concerto #20 - Allegro I

(note: this is no doubt infringing on someone's copyrights, so get it while it lasts)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 12:04:17 PM
Rondo

http://www.youtube.com/v/7ZGVtgDQjdM
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 12:14:26 PM
Myra Hess Appassionata

http://www.youtube.com/v/_zHbpLg9_bo
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 06, 2007, 05:56:55 PM
With apologies for being off-topic, the last video above reminded me something:

Am I the only one to whom Myra Hess looks like Oliver Hardy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_and_Hardy) with a wig? A great pianist, of course; but I'm having trouble "shaking" that connection, whenever I see her. :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 06, 2007, 06:16:09 PM
Quote from: Renfield on November 06, 2007, 05:56:55 PM
With apologies for being off-topic, the last video above reminded me something:

Am I the only one to whom Myra Hess looks like Oliver Hardy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_and_Hardy) with a wig? A great pianist, of course; but I'm having trouble "shaking" that connection, whenever I see her. :P

Close your eyes if you must. Don't let great playing like that pass you by... ;)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 06:49:30 AM
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2007/11/06/20071106_classical_tracks_2.jpg)

The "Emperor" Concerto is usually thought to be as bold and heroic as its nickname. By taking a different, introspective approach, Grimaud sheds new light on this classic.  (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/11/06/classical_tracks/)

Title: Classical Music as an Anti-depressant
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 06:57:30 AM
 

Classical music as antidepressant

This study comes out of Alzahra University, in Tehran, where a group of researchers, noting that music therapy has already been shown to reduce pain, improve sleep quality, and improve mood in cancer patients underoing therapy and multiple sclerosis patients, wondered if music might alleviate depression as well. It does. They took 56 depressed subjects, had them listen to Beethoven's 3d and 5th piano sonatas for 15 minutes twice a week in a clean, otherwise quiet room -- and saw their depression scores on the standard Beck Depression Scale [improve] signficantly. No side effects! And music is cheap -- a lifetime of Beethoven for the price of a couple weeks of Prozac.

This obviously needs further work, but as a music lover I find it damn encouraging. The resesarchers plan on doing another study using EEGs instruments to monitor brain changes, and I'd love to see some imaging work on this. ... If classical music publishers could match the drug industry's marketing budgets, we'd be listening to a lot of Beethoven sonatas. Which you can do, briefly, by (going here for a mood-improving listen.

(http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=amusing_pain_elevating_music_and_other_j&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 01:26:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/_Vmhw49baEI

Isaac Stern, violin
Eugene Istomin, piano
Leonard Rose, cello (1918-1984)
'Allegro con brio' (quasi tranquillo) from "Trio in C minor, Op.1, No.3"
Music by Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
(CBC telecast of June 23, 1965)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 01:30:28 PM
3rd Movement of Beethoven PC 3 played with Alexei Volodin and conducted by Kocsis.

http://www.youtube.com/v/VMqzw5zuM6U
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: c#minor on November 07, 2007, 01:30:56 PM
Quote from: Herzog Lipschitz on November 07, 2007, 06:57:30 AM


Classical music as antidepressant

This study comes out of Alzahra University, in Tehran, where a group of researchers, noting that music therapy has already been shown to reduce pain, improve sleep quality, and improve mood in cancer patients underoing therapy and multiple sclerosis patients, wondered if music might alleviate depression as well. It does. They took 56 depressed subjects, had them listen to Beethoven's 3d and 5th piano sonatas for 15 minutes twice a week in a clean, otherwise quiet room -- and saw their depression scores on the standard Beck Depression Scale [improve] signficantly. No side effects! And music is cheap -- a lifetime of Beethoven for the price of a couple weeks of Prozac.

This obviously needs further work, but as a music lover I find it damn encouraging. The resesarchers plan on doing another study using EEGs instruments to monitor brain changes, and I'd love to see some imaging work on this. ... If classical music publishers could match the drug industry's marketing budgets, we'd be listening to a lot of Beethoven sonatas. Which you can do, briefly, by (going here for a mood-improving listen.

(http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=amusing_pain_elevating_music_and_other_j&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)


is this new news???

It has always been understood the classical music, and other music improves mood. But i can guess that if those same people listened to Tchaikovsky's 6th some might become suicidal. Music is an emotional medium, thats why we love it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 07, 2007, 01:32:08 PM
Quote from: Herzog Lipschitz on November 07, 2007, 06:49:30 AM
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2007/11/06/20071106_classical_tracks_2.jpg)

The "Emperor" Concerto is usually thought to be as bold and heroic as its nickname. By taking a different, introspective approach, Grimaud sheds new light on this classic.  (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/11/06/classical_tracks/)



I can't decide whether or not to take the plunge with this disc. Not normally one to be swayed by reviews, I've nonetheless got cold feet after having read less than inspiring things about the performances. :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 07, 2007, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Mark on November 07, 2007, 01:32:08 PM
I can't decide whether or not to take the plunge with this disc. Not normally one to be swayed by reviews, I've nonetheless got cold feet after having read less than inspiring things about the performances. :-\

I find Gramophone to be dead-on, for this one. But I still don't regret buying it: it's an interesting and rather unique performance. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 08, 2007, 12:13:38 AM
Quote from: Renfield on November 07, 2007, 04:47:52 PM
I find Gramophone to be dead-on, for this one. But I still don't regret buying it: it's an interesting and rather unique performance. :)

Can't recall: were they particularly in favour or against?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 08, 2007, 01:31:28 AM
Quote from: Mark on November 08, 2007, 12:13:38 AM
Can't recall: were they particularly in favour or against?

They said it could be subtitled: "A Tale of Two Emperors", with regard to the fact that the performance is very much of two minds. And I definitely agree that the soloist and the orchestra are playing in parallel, on occasion, rather than in tandem (if you know what I mean).

So overall, it's a well-played piano part with a well-player orchestra part, if not necessarily a well-played concerto.

But it is well-played, with a particularly colourful response from all concerned. And as I said above, I'm happy that I bought it. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 08, 2007, 01:32:46 AM
Quote from: Renfield on November 08, 2007, 01:31:28 AM
They said it could be subtitled: "A Tale of Two Emperors", with regard to the fact that the performance is very much of two minds. And I definitely agree that the soloist and the orchestra are playing in parallel, on occasion, rather than in tandem (if you know what I mean).

Yes, of course. I remember now. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 12, 2007, 06:48:32 AM
FROM: NYT
November 12, 2007
Music Review | Simón Bolívar Youth Symphony Orchestra

A Young Orchestra Led by a Youthful Major Player
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI
When Gustavo Dudamel walked on the stage at Carnegie Hall yesterday afternoon to conduct the first of two programs with the Simón Bolívar Youth Symphony Orchestra of Venezuela, it looked for a moment as if his much-touted unflappability were going to desert him. With his unkempt mane of curly hair and slight build, he looked a little ashen-faced and shy.

You could hardly blame him for being nervous. This was his first appearance in New York, and few musicians have ever faced such pressure. Mr. Dudamel, a 26-year-old Venezuelan, is one of the most talked-about performers in classical music, "the most astonishingly gifted conductor I have ever come across," in the words of Simon Rattle. In April, in a breathtaking decision, the Los Angeles Philharmonic appointed Mr. Dudamel to succeed Esa-Pekka Salonen as its music director in 2009.

But once Mr. Dudamel took the podium and began Berlioz's "Roman Carnival," he exuded command and excitement. He drew sweeping, urgent, often brilliant playing from the young musicians.

Over the last 30 years, Venezuela has developed the "sistema," arguably the most ambitious program of music education and orchestra training in the world. Some 250,000 young people take part. The 200 best of them, ranging in age from 15 to 25, are members of the Simón Bolívar Orchestra, based in Caracas. Mr. Dudamel, who emerged from the sistema, has conducted the ensemble for almost nine years. There is a palpably intense bond between them.

So for Dudamel watchers, this concert was a special case. Those in the audience hoping to find out what the buzz is about may have to wait until he makes his debut with the New York Philharmonic, on Nov. 29. Still, this youth orchestra was very impressive, and the general qualities of its conductor's communicative artistry and immense skills came through.

Mr. Dudamel is a passionate and intuitive musician. Every phrase of the Berlioz had an expressive idea behind it, a compelling character. When the carnival of the title perks up, the music turns boisterous, and the playing here had almost intimidating energy and brassy power.

In Chopin's Piano Concerto No. 2 in F minor, the young players were joined by a master soloist, Emanuel Ax. For a youth orchestra trying to make an impression on tour, this concerto is not an ideal choice. Chopin was rather hapless at orchestration. In whole stretches the orchestra has little to do but prolong sustained harmonies that back up the continually inventive piano part.

In the long orchestral exposition, Mr. Dudamel and his players really tried to make something happen. They projected the main theme with urgency, taking every opportunity to highlight an inner voice or a restless bass line. In the genial second theme, the playing was oddly cool, almost metronomic. But there was reason to the approach: Later, when Mr. Ax took over that theme, the lyrical freedom he introduced was all the more affecting for what had come before.

Mr. Ax, playing with his customary refinement and integrity, seemed inspired by these young players. In the mazurkalike finale, he and the orchestra might have been dance partners.

After intermission came a go-for-broke and exuberantly Romantic account of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. For all the sheer excitement, this was not a particularly distinctive or probing interpretation. Again, Mr. Dudamel came across as an instinctive rather than an analytic musician. Still, there were thrilling compensations: slicing attacks on fortissimo chords; ominous crescendos that swelled to the breaking point.

The concert ended with a frenzied fiesta. The players donned jackets based on the Venezuelan flag and played a selection of Latin American works, though one of them was "Mambo" from "West Side Story," and the inclusion would have delighted Bernstein. During the performance the players leapt off their seats, shouted and shimmied. Cellists twirled their instruments as if they were spinning their dates during the dance at the gym.

For all his charisma, I don't think Mr. Dudamel will be able to get the players of the Los Angeles Philharmonic to leap off their seats and dance. But who knows?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 12, 2007, 03:29:47 PM
BEETHOVEN: Violin Concerto in D Major, Op. 61; PROKOFIEV: Violin Concerto No. 2 in G Minor, Op. 63 - Berl Senofsky, violin/Boston Symphony Orchestra/ Pierre Monteux (Beethoven)/American Symphony Orchestra/Leopold Stokowski (Prokofiev) - Cembal d'amour
An important document of a major violin talent - among the Best of the Year.  (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3447)

(http://www.audaud.com/photos/20071112111106_senofsky-cd-re.jpg)

BEETHOVEN: Violin Concerto in D Major, Op. 61; PROKOFIEV: Violin Concerto
No. 2 in G Minor, Op. 63 - Berl Senofsky, violin/Boston Symphony Orchestra/ Pierre Monteux (Beethoven)/American Symphony Orchestra/Leopold Stokowski (Prokofiev)

Cembal d'amour Historic Series CD 126,  70:57 (Distrib. Qualiton) *****:


Cembal d'amour brings out the third of its recorded celebrations of the art of American violinist Berl Senofsky (1926-2002), the only American-born violinist to have won Queen Elisabeth International Music Competition in Belgium. His teaching at the Peabody Conservatory of Music 1965-1996 possesses all the force of legend. I have lamented prior that aside from Cembal d'amour, no label (including RCA and Philips) has resurrected the few commercial records Senofsky made, especially his gripping Brahms Concerto with Rudolf Moralt, done for an Epic LP.

Here, Senofsky collaborates with two titans of the orchestral palette, and I will start with the Prokofiev (10 January 1966) from Carnegie Hall under Leopold Stokowski. Long a sponsor of Prokofiev's music, Stokowski (1882-1977) made no inscriptions of Prokofiev's concertos, although documents exist of the G Minor Piano Concerto and the Cello Concertino. Sporting a hugely gracious tone--albeit in somewhat distant sonics--Senofsky exults in this lyrical and metrically demonic work, effecting a long line that rivals the esteemed Heifetz/Koussevitzky interpretation that set the standard for everyone else. The tenderness Senofsky instills in the slow movement complements the demonic virtuosity marking his grasp of this work, which he swallows whole. The last movement, which likes to exploit Iberian impulses in its rather exotic division of the bar line into unorthodox modes of four, has Senofsky rasping and singing alternately in rapturous swoops, even when his instrument wants to sound like a demented banshee. The last page elicits howls of praise from a mesmerized audience.

It is a rare delight to hear veteran conductor Pierre Monteux (1875-1964) in the Beethoven Concerto from Tanglewood (9 August 1958), a collaboration to complement his fine inscription for RCA of the Brahms Concerto with the Boston Symphony and soloist Henryk Szeryng. Monteux establishes a broad canvas for the opening exposition, and Senofsky enters with half steps and soft diminuendi in the manner and drive of Nathan Milstein. The two proceed to the mingled measures--in bright sound--alternately stately and lyrically exalted, with an undeviating sense of architecture. Senofsky affectionately and passionately realizes the cadenzas by Fritz Kreisler, who was himself an honored attendee at the concert. Senofsky luscious tone and fluent style carry the first movement by leaps and bounds, the pedal points from the orchestra breaking out, tutti, into energetic waves of exquisitely balanced sound.  Applause erupts after the first movement, only a taste of the cataclysm that follows a timeless Larghetto and volcanic Rondo, whose each repetition of the jovial, bouncy tune gains both momentum and esprit. An important document of a major violin talent - among the Best of the Year.

-- Gary Lemco
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 12, 2007, 03:39:33 PM
Missa Solemnis -- Stratford-upon-Avon Choral Society

Stratford-upon-Avon choral society's Autumn concert is the magnificent Missa Solemnis by Beethoven on Saturday November 17th 2007 in Holy Trinity Church, Old Town, Stratford at 7.30pm.
(http://www.ebrington.com/blog/425/startford-upon-avon-choral-society-beethoven-missa-solemnis)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 13, 2007, 10:35:03 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11279_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Violin Concerto; Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer"
Vadim Repin (violin); Martha Argerich (piano); VPO / Muti
Deutsche Grammophon- B0009663-0(CD)


CLASSICS TODAY REVIEW: "Repin produces a big yet sweet tone married to lovingly delicate phrasing. There is backbone in his performance, but some listeners might well feel that there's not enough. Interpretively, Repin comes closer to the heartfelt lyricism of Perlman than to the more aggressively virtuoso stance of Heifetz, though both of these artists engage the emotions more than Repin does."   (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11279)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 19, 2007, 03:03:09 AM
 The BEAUX ARTS TRIO makes its final UK appearances. Two works by Schubert – Piano Trio in B flat, D898, and Piano Trio in E flat, D929 – in the first concert (Sun 7.30pm); and Beethoven's Variations in G and Archduke Piano Trio in the second (Mon 1pm). Wigmore Hall, Wigmore Street, W1 (www.wigmore-hall.org.uk 020-7935 2141)  (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2213206,00.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 19, 2007, 03:03:59 AM
Andrew Clements
Friday November 16, 2007
The Guardian

"Uchida's ...  account of the Hammerklavier ... is so overwhelming, [it is] perhaps the finest to appear on disc since Emil Gilels' 25 years ago.  (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2211451,00.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 19, 2007, 03:05:51 AM
 Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 1/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORrYCjtckM0)

Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 2/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkeMlZThfHc)

Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 3/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=repcFTXxL7A)

Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 4/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXYbGr5RaKM)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 19, 2007, 03:55:44 AM
Quote from: D Minor on November 13, 2007, 10:35:03 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11279_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Violin Concerto; Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer"
Vadim Repin (violin); Martha Argerich (piano); VPO / Muti
Deutsche Grammophon- B0009663-0(CD)


CLASSICS TODAY REVIEW: "Repin produces a big yet sweet tone married to lovingly delicate phrasing. There is backbone in his performance, but some listeners might well feel that there's not enough. Interpretively, Repin comes closer to the heartfelt lyricism of Perlman than to the more aggressively virtuoso stance of Heifetz, though both of these artists engage the emotions more than Repin does."   (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11279)


When faced with choosing between this and Faust on Harmonia Mundi, Rob Cowan (one of very few reviewers whose opinions I do respect) went with Faust. And though I've not heard Repin's account of either work, I'm prepared to go with Cowan on this, as his description of the DG recording sounded ominously like that God-awful, drawn-out Vengerov/Rostropovich reading on EMI that I'm forever lambasting. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 19, 2007, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: Mark on November 19, 2007, 03:55:44 AM
When faced with choosing between this and Faust on Harmonia Mundi, Rob Cowan (one of very few reviewers whose opinions I do respect) went with Faust. And though I've not heard Repin's account of either work, I'm prepared to go with Cowan on this, as his description of the DG recording sounded ominously like that God-awful, drawn-out Vengerov/Rostropovich reading on EMI that I'm forever lambasting. ;D

And the Faust account is quite wonderful on its own right, too! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 10:13:52 AM
Quote from: www.classicstoday.com
Interpretively, Repin comes closer to the heartfelt lyricism of Perlman than to the more aggressively virtuoso stance of Heifetz, though both of these artists engage the emotions more than Repin does.

Oh, statements like this inspire a rolling of the eyes, they do.  I've heard Repin play the Shostakovich First Concerto, and his playing "engages the emotions" just fine, in my experience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 19, 2007, 12:31:11 PM
Quote from: Renfield on November 19, 2007, 04:06:53 AM
And the Faust account is quite wonderful on its own right, too! :)

Absolutely. Sounds just perfect to my ears. 0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 26, 2007, 03:08:34 AM
Two takes on Carlos Kleiber's conducting the finale of LvB 7

Carlos Kleiber - Beethoven symphony No.7, Op.92 : mov.4
Bavarian State Orchestra


http://www.youtube.com/v/19L5lqpmM2w

Compare:

Carlos Kleiber -Beethoven symphony No.7, Op.92 : mov.4
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra


http://www.youtube.com/v/VLkZvsp62iU&feature=related
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 26, 2007, 03:16:21 AM
Releases 11/20/2007

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1009141.jpg)

1.  Concerto for Violin and Cello in A minor, Op. 102 "Double" by Johannes Brahms
Performer:  Thomas Zehetmair (Violin), Antonio Meneses (Cello)
Conductor:  Kurt Sanderling
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Cologne West German Radio Symphony Orchestra

2.  Symphony no 6 in F major, Op. 68 "Pastoral" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Conductor:  Kurt Sanderling
 
3.  Fantasia in C minor, Op. 80 "Choral Fantasy" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Orchestra/Ensemble:  USSR Radio/TV Large Symphony Orchestra,  Russian State Academy Chorus


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 28, 2007, 03:04:02 AM
 2nd International Beethoven Competition for Piano in Bonn, December 3-13, 2007  (http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/en/)


A generously endowed piano competition in honor of Ludwig van Beethoven, to be held every two years in Bonn, will take place for the second time in 2007, beginning next week on December 3d. Pianists, born between 1975 and 1987, from all over the world are invited to take part in the 2nd International Beethoven Competition Bonn for Piano.  This top-level competition focuses on works by Beethoven from every phase of his creative life. One of the special aims of this competition is to place these works into a programmatic context that underlines the composer's outstanding importance as a creative and innovative source of ideas for the international music world.


(http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/img/laureates/2005/Henri_Sigfridsson_s.jpg)

In 2005, Henri Sigfridsson from Finland was the winner of the first prize, endowed with EUR 30,000, in the International Beethoven Competition for Piano staged for the first time in Bonn in 2005.

2005 2d prize EUR 20,000 (http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/img/laureates/2005/Norie_Takahashi_s.jpg)

2005 3d prize EUR 10,000 (http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/img/laureates/2005/David_Kadouch_s.jpg)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 04, 2007, 09:51:52 AM
December 4, 2007, New York Times
Music Review
Beethoven's Violin Sonatas as a Series of Dialogues
By ALLAN KOZINN

The 92nd Street Y is smitten with the idea of Beethoven cycles this season. In September the Kalichstein-Laredo-Robinson Trio played all the piano trios in chronological order in an all-day marathon. Now the violinist Christian Tetzlaff and the pianist Alexander Lonquich are playing the Sonatas for Violin and Piano. Mr. Tetzlaff and Mr. Lonquich are in less of a hurry: Having played the first four sonatas on Thursday, they picked up with the fifth — "Spring" Sonata — as well as the sixth and seventh on Sunday afternoon, and will play a concluding concert tonight.

The Beethoven of the "Spring" Sonata was 30 and no longer the feisty Haydn acolyte he had been three years earlier, when he wrote his first violin sonatas, nor was he the iconoclast he would become in another four years. In this work's opening movement, at least, he sounds atypically at ease and willing to pour melodic balm on his listeners. In fact, except for the teasing syncopations in the Scherzos of this work and of the Sonata No. 7 (Op. 30, No. 2), he maintains this uncharacteristic gentility right up to the "Kreutzer" Sonata, the ninth in the set.

Mr. Tetzlaff and Mr. Lonquich seemed disinclined to see the works quite that way, but they weren't ready to discard the possibility entirely. So if their brisk reading of the "Spring" Sonata's graceful opening sounded oddly aloof, they compensated in the slow movements of all three works and in the rich variations that close the Sonata No. 6 (Op. 30, No. 1).

In these Mr. Tetzlaff produced a warm, singing tone, acknowledging the music's lyricism without veering into sentimentality. He tended to use dynamic suppleness rather than vibrato as an expressive engine, and when he used vibrato, it was lavish enough to make a phrase blossom, but not so wide as to call attention to itself.

Mr. Lonquich's contribution was a crisply articulated, extroverted piano line that was never subservient, even when it had only accompanying figuration. That said, Mr. Lonquich never stepped on Mr. Tetzlaff's lines, and Mr. Tetzlaff adopted a similar approach: When the piano was in the spotlight, Mr. Tetzlaff's accompanying lines were shapely and full of character.

The most pleasing aspect of this collaboration was the degree to which Mr. Tetzlaff and Mr. Lonquich played this music as a series of dialogues, with phrases shaped as questions and rejoinders, assertions and rebuttals, and stretches in which the pleasure of agreement created its own energy and pushed the conversation forward.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 05, 2007, 08:23:29 AM
Barenboim's masterclass about Beethoven (PART 1) Chicago 2005, Symphony Hall

http://www.youtube.com/v/40q4P-dyn0o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 05, 2007, 08:24:23 AM

Barenboim's masterclass about Beethoven (PART 2)

http://www.youtube.com/v/-a_5qkIr8bc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 05, 2007, 08:25:26 AM
Barenboim's masterclass about Beethoven (PART 3)

http://www.youtube.com/v/gF0xTTf_OMI

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 07, 2007, 07:21:43 AM
Mammoth effort brings out the best in Beethoven
07 Dec 2007

A professor of music has spent 10 years examining every note of every authentic source of every Beethoven piano sonata to produce what he feels is the truest representation of the composer's work.
Barry Cooper from The University of Manchester has published a revised version of all 35 sonatas - including three little-known pieces printed when the composer was 12 - for the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music.

Based at the University's School of Arts, Histories and Cultures, Professor Cooper, who is one of the world's leading Beethoven experts, has published the work in three volumes.

He is widely known for completing the first movement of Beethoven's unfinished tenth symphony, premiered at the Royal Festival Hall in 1988.


The thousands of notes examined for his latest work are accompanied by over 150,000 words of detailed commentary.

He said: "What I've done is try to reproduce what Beethoven actually wrote - and what he meant to write - more accurately than in any previous edition.

"For example, one note in particular has been the subject of debate ever since it was first published in the early 19th century - an A sharp in the opus 106 Sonata in B flat major known as the "Hammerklavier".

"Beethoven probably forgot to cancel the sharp and an 'A natural' makes more sense.

"And what I've also done, which has not been done before, is to relate what Beethoven wrote to what we know about the notation and performing styles of his day, wherever there's any uncertainty.

"This detailed commentary should be of great help for all performers.

"If you know the sonatas well, you'll certainly be able to tell the difference."

He added: "All other recent editions have 32 sonatas. The three extra ones are normally omitted as they were very early works written when Beethoven was 12.

"I feel there is no reason to omit them as they are full scale works.

"Moreover, the first complete edition of Beethoven's piano sonatas, published by Beethoven's friend Haslinger, did contain the extra three.

"As Beethoven himself may have been involved, it suggests he would have approved."

Leslie East, Executive Director: Syllabus & Publishing for ABRSM, commented: "The new edition of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is a landmark in the history of music scholarship and publishing.

"Professor Cooper's remarkable forensic examination of the history and sources of this essential canon of the piano literature is matched by the immensely practical and educationally valuable insights he brings to issues of interpretation and performance.

"ABRSM Publishing is proud to be the publisher of an edition that provides a definitive text alongside such a uniquely comprehensive picture of these extraordinary works."

NOTES FOR EDITORS
Professor Cooper is available for comment

The official launch was at the Wigmore Hall on 7 December presented by John Suchet, newscaster and Beethoven devotee who has written several books on the composer.

Professor Cooper will talk about his approach to the edition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 12, 2007, 03:31:29 AM
Says Bruce Hodges about the Vänskä/Minnesota Beethoven Ninth:


*** I am really wowed by that Beethoven.  Vänskä adopts some tenets of the HIP movement (obviously without using a HIP ensemble) and comes up with a happy medium.  As just one example, in the last movement, the tympani strokes are very quick and clean--not quite "gunshots" but more crisp than most.

It's a very brisk performance, on the transparent side, and very beautifully played and recorded.  I like the soloists in the last movement, all of whom are new to me, who sing with lots of punch and vigor.  (Some people may not go for this.)  I must have about ten recordings of the Ninth, and this one will probably be somewhere near the top of the list, after exploring it awhile.

          --Bruce


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2007, 07:33:22 AM
Happy Anniversary of Beethoven's Baptism!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 06, 2008, 03:19:44 PM



100 classical albums you must hear (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/arts/2008/01/06/sv_classical.xm)

Bewildered by the ever-growing catalogue of classical music on CD? Let our music critic Michael Kennedy be your guide with his choice of 100 essential recordings

by Michael Kennedy, Telegraph.co.uk

***

BEETHOVEN

Symphony No 3 (Eroica); BBCSO; Barbirolli Society

An excellent example of Barbirolli's direct and honest way with the Beethoven symphonies. This studio recording followed a 1967 live performance which drew superlatives from the critics.

Symphonies Nos 5 and 7; Philharmonia Orch; EMI

Otto Klemperer's Beethoven cycles at the Festival Hall in the 1960s were crowd-drawing events and these performances, imbued with granite-like grandeur and energy, explain why.

Beethoven Symphony No 9 (Choral); Bavarian Radio SO; Philips

A perennial challenge to all its performers, especially the chorus, the Ninth is superbly performed under Sir Colin Davis, with soloists Helen Donath, Trudeliese Schmidt, Klaus König and Simon Estes.

Violin Concerto; Berlin PO; Dutton

Recorded in 1936 by Georg Kulenkampff and conducted by Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt, this was regarded as a classic from the start, although the style of playing is not today's.

Piano Concerto No 3; NBC Orch; Naxos Historical

The interest in this Toscanini performance is his choice of soloist, the English pianist Dame Myra Hess, who was popular in America and is in rapport with the fiery Italian.

Piano Concerto No 5 (Emperor); Staatskapelle Dresden; Philips

The Chilean pianist Claudio Arrau, a Beethoven specialist, gives a towering performance of this emperor of concertos, with Sir Colin Davis providing ideal support. From 1984.

Piano Trio in B flat (Archduke); EMI

Alfred Cortot, Jacques Thibaud and Pablo Casals in 1928 in an evergreen account of this wonderful trio deservedly included by EMI in its Great Recordings of the Century.

Piano sonatas; Philips

Several great pianists have recorded all 32, although ideally one needs more than one artist in this range. The last five masterpieces are wonderfully played on two discs by Mitsuko Uchida.

String Quartets; Harmonia Mundi

Same applies to these, but you must have the three Rasumovsky quartets, Opus 59, and I recommend immensely satisfying performances by the Tokyo String Quartet recorded two or three years ago.

Fidelio; Royal Opera House Orch; Testament

Otto Klemperer conducted this thrilling live performance at Covent Garden in 1961 with the unbeatable combination of Sena Jurinac and Jon Vickers as Leonore and Florestan





Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 07, 2008, 02:08:51 AM

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11394_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6 "Pastoral"
Minnesota Orchestra / Osmo Vänskä
BIS- 1716(SACD)


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s10.gif)

Osmo Vänskä's Beethoven cycle with his own Minnesota Orchestra represents a triumph of basic musical values as much as keen interpretive insight. ***  once again Vänskä has turned in two outstanding performances. ***  These performances represent the difference between interpretations whose curiosity value rapidly wanes with each encounter, revealing a musically hollow core, and those--such as we find here--that have genuine staying-power and substance. They are permanently enjoyable.


--David Hurwitz  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11394)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 07, 2008, 02:13:16 AM


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11410_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Symphonies Nos. 4 & 7
Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen / Paavo Järvi


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s10.gif)


This second disc from Paavo Järvi's complete Beethoven cycle is just as fine as the first (containing Symphonies 3 and 8 ). Once again the playing of the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen is phenomenal. *** The outer movements of the Seventh Symphony have an almost elemental force, and while some listeners might prefer a stronger presence from the horns, the prominence of the wind and trumpet parts is very welcome, particularly in the finale's refreshingly un-opaque main theme. You can really hear the colorful mosaic of timbres that comprises the first subject.

--David Hurwitz  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11410)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on January 07, 2008, 02:31:14 AM
Quote from: Dm on January 07, 2008, 02:08:51 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11394_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6 "Pastoral"
Minnesota Orchestra / Osmo Vänskä
BIS- 1716(SACD)


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s10.gif)

Osmo Vänskä's Beethoven cycle with his own Minnesota Orchestra represents a triumph of basic musical values as much as keen interpretive insight. ***  once again Vänskä has turned in two outstanding performances. ***  These performances represent the difference between interpretations whose curiosity value rapidly wanes with each encounter, revealing a musically hollow core, and those--such as we find here--that have genuine staying-power and substance. They are permanently enjoyable.


--David Hurwitz  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11394)

I was particularly amused & annoyed by this comment by "Hurwitzer":

"So let's be clear. No period instrument group in existence can play this music as well as a superbly trained, regularly constituted major symphony orchestra such as we find here,..

What ??? The Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Gardiner), Tafelmusik (Weil), the Orchestra of the 18th Century (Brüggen) and the Academy of Ancient Music (Hogwood) are all clearly inferior to a "major" (?) symphony orchestra like the Minnesota Orchestra? LOL!  ;D

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 07, 2008, 04:03:23 AM
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis (Bernstein)

Here are the beautiful Sanctus & Benedictus

Sanctus http://www.youtube.com/v/cVPXd1b-pxU
Benedictus Continued http://www.youtube.com/v/D4JSH7LLX6s

Moser-Schwarz-Kollo-Moll
Hilversum Radio Chorus
Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on January 07, 2008, 05:34:41 PM
Quote from: Que on January 07, 2008, 02:31:14 AM
I was particularly amused & annoyed by this comment by "Hurwitzer":

"So let's be clear. No period instrument group in existence can play this music as well as a superbly trained, regularly constituted major symphony orchestra such as we find here,..

What ??? The Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Gardiner), Tafelmusik (Weil), the Orchestra of the 18th Century (Brüggen) and the Academy of Ancient Music (Hogwood) are all clearly inferior to a "major" (?) symphony orchestra like the Minnesota Orchestra? LOL!  ;D

Q

The annoyed part you totally deserve for even reading that crap. Hurwitz is an extremely bad reviewer, a hobby percussionist who has snapped up a few things here and there which make him look professional in the eyes of the uninformed. But he doesn't really know much about the things he reviews, he doesn't understand music making and performing traditions. The way this works is that he trumpets out "strong" opinions based on clichées, so superficially informed readers can understand these "strong" opinions and feel good about participating in that.They feel they "know" and "understand" a lot, too, and they can also have "strong" opinions. Plus he is embarrassing to read because everything he writes shows clear signs of an American cultural inferiority complex when it comes to European music culture and ensembles. For which there is no reason, but he totally has it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on January 07, 2008, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 07, 2008, 05:34:41 PM
The annoyed part you totally deserve for even reading that crap.

I know, but it's quite funny at the same time. ;D  It does however brings the risk of automatically avoiding anything the Hurwitzer abundantly sprinkles his 10/10's over. I still visit Classictoday because of some other reviewers, like Jed Distler.

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:39:36 AM
You don't have to justify yourself! You are entitled to wasting your time in whatever ways please you. But yes, keep in mind, if Hurwitz gives 10/10, that doesn't mean it's bad either. It's just otally random nonsense. How fitting that "Witz" means "joke" in German - nomen est omen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on January 08, 2008, 06:47:09 AM
Quote from: Que on January 07, 2008, 11:12:30 PM
I know, but it's quite funny at the same time. ;D  It does however brings the risk of automatically avoiding anything the Hurwitzer abundantly sprinkles his 10/10's over. I still visit Classictoday because of some other reviewers, like Jed Distler.

Q

Jed has certainly guided me to a number of great recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 07:08:04 AM
Quote from: George on January 08, 2008, 06:47:09 AM
Jed has certainly guided me to a number of great recordings.

And guided me to a great number of mediocre recordings. He's not a reviewer I trust. We have radically different taste apparently.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 08, 2008, 07:11:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 07:08:04 AM
And guided me to a great number of mediocre recordings. He's not a reviewer I trust. We have radically different taste apparently.

Sarge
He is actually not as clueless as Robert Levine, who is totally tone-deaf in my opinion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on January 08, 2008, 07:19:44 AM
Quote from: George on January 08, 2008, 06:47:09 AM
Jed has certainly guided me to a number of great recordings.

Three examples:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=6783

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3182

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9625
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 09:45:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 07:08:04 AM
We have radically different taste apparently.

Differences in taste don't matter. Nobody can separate that from his views, and "impersonal" musical criticism isn't interesting to read either, but a good reviewer can more or less "accurately" describe what he hears and put it into context. Especially when it comes to "classial" music, there is a lot of context, performance traditions, other performances of the same repertoire etcetc. Which is what they all appear to do. But especially Hurwitz can't keep his emotional over-reactions and silly biases under control. That's why he is a very bad reviewer. And I am not saying that because we have "different tastes". Some albums I recently enjoyed a lot and thin are very good got "10/10" or similar from him as well (e.g. Jansons - Rachmaninoff symphonies, Harnoncourt - Bruckner 9). But I just don't like the journalistic style, or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 08, 2008, 01:33:52 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 09:45:00 AM
Differences in taste don't matter.

:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 01:50:10 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 09:45:00 AM
Differences in taste don't matter.

They do to me, in the way I meant in my earlier post: Whether or not I'll enjoy a recommended recording has very much to do with the critic's taste, far more than whether or not he understands the performing traditions of any particular orchestra. I've discovered after years of reading that Distler and I have radically different taste. What he considers great I often find underwhelming--not bad, just not worth the investment. So, yes, it does matter--not in the context of the review, which I can enjoy whether or not I agree with his recommendation, but in the decision to explore further, or forget, the item he reviewed.

QuoteHurwitz can't keep his emotional over-reactions and silly biases under control. That's why he is a very bad reviewer

His biases, silly or not, are there for everyone to see. He's emotionally open, like many Americans, and I, maybe because I'm an American too, appreciate that. He's not wishy-washy--I also appreciate that. When I read a critic, I want an opinion. A strong opinion and a consistent opinion. I get that from Hurwitz. It's then up to me to decide whether he's right or wrong about any one recording. I know when to take him with a grain of salt: I don't read him to find out which HIP recording to buy. I don't read him for insight into Barbirolli and Horenstein  :D

QuoteI just don't like the journalistic style

Your perogative, of course.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 08, 2008, 02:04:18 PM
First, we have the music performance.
Next, we have the person who reviews the music.
Then, we have the person who reviews the reviewer of the music.
Then, we have the person who reviews the reviewer of the reviewer of the music.
Then .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don on January 08, 2008, 02:06:48 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 01:50:10 PM

His biases, silly or not, are there for everyone to see. He's emotionally open, like many Americans, and I, maybe because I'm an American too, appreciate that. He's not wishy-washy--I also appreciate that. When I read a critic, I want an opinion. A strong opinion and a consistent opinion. I get that from Hurwitz. It's then up to me to decide whether he's right or wrong about any one recording. I know when to take him with a grain of salt: I don't read him to find out which HIP recording to buy. I don't read him for insight into Barbirolli and Horenstein  :D

Sarge

Hurwitz seems to have quite a hatred for Barbirolli and Horenstein.  It would be best if he didn't do reviews of their recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 02:16:03 PM
Quote from: Don on January 08, 2008, 02:06:48 PM
Hurwitz seems to have quite a hatred for Barbirolli and Horenstein.  It would be best if he didn't do reviews of their recordings.

I think so too. The negative things he points out are usually obvious and, quite simply, don't matter to anyone who appreciates these two conductors. Still, I suppose the reviews do serve at least one purpose: they give the newbie fair warning.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:21:06 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 01:50:10 PM
I've discovered after years of reading that Distler and I have radically different taste.

You have been reading that crap for years and it took you that long to figure that out?

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 01:50:10 PM
He's emotionally open, like many Americans

That's pretty funny, Sarge! Thanks for the laugh!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 01:50:10 PM
When I read a critic, I want an opinion. A strong opinion and a consistent opinion. I get that from Hurwitz.

No, you don't. You don't get a *strong* opinion from him. You get a *strongly* voiced one, and you are old enough to see there is a big difference between the two. And it's not consistent either. It's pretty random, since it's not based on solid knowledge and good critical appreciation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2008, 03:47:14 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:21:06 PM
No, you don't. You don't get a *strong* opinion from him. You get a *strongly* voiced one, and you are old enough to see there is a big difference between the two. And it's not consistent either. It's pretty random, since it's not based on solid knowledge and good critical appreciation.

How would you know?  ??? Help me out here, M. You claim you don't read him (and that anyone who does is, at best, wasting his time, at worst, an idiot). So how do you know he's not consistent?  ;D

What amuses me is how much you resemble Hurwitz. I guess that's why I like reading you.  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 07:45:52 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 08, 2008, 06:39:36 AM
How fitting that "Witz" means "joke" in German - nomen est omen.

...and that Hur' means... never mind.  >:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:24:20 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 09, 2008, 07:45:52 AM
...and that Hur' means... never mind.  >:D

That means "whore". Strange, that never occurred to me befoe... :o


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2008, 03:47:14 AM
How would you know?  ??? Help me out here, M. You claim you don't read him (and that anyone who does is, at best, wasting his time, at worst, an idiot). So how do you know he's not consistent?  ;D

Sure I have read some of his reviews. That should be pretty obvious. Otherwise I wouldn't have that opinion about them. I even check classicstoday once in a while because I like to read interesting and stimulating - and provocative - reviews, and just because most of which I have read so far were nonsense - and not really provocative either, I don't mean provocative in the sense of insulting, but in the sense of having some uncommon views, but views which are uncommon because they are based on more reflection than common views, but that doesn't apply to the random emotional nonsense he writes -, I think there might still be some interesting ones now and then, or some interesting points among all the nonsense. But the signal-to-noise ratio is just too high.

Is that a waste of time? Dunno, depends on your attitude towards that. If you are entertained by it, I don't think it is a waste of time. Does that make the reader an idiot? Not necessarily, only if the reader picks up the nonsense.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2008, 03:47:14 AM
What amuses me is how much you resemble Hurwitz. I guess that's why I like reading you.  :D

We really don't have much in common. I have the background he pretends to have. I don't write reviews, my posts here are just casual chit chat, they don't pose as reviews. Sometimes I do write little review-like paragraphs, and when I do, these are much better than anything he can write.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2008, 05:12:20 AM
Quote from: M forever on January 09, 2008, 08:24:20 AM
Sure I have read some of his reviews. That should be pretty obvious....Is that a waste of time? Dunno, depends on your attitude towards that. If you are entertained by it, I don't think it is a waste of time. Does that make the reader an idiot? Not necessarily, only if the reader picks up the nonsense.

Thank you, M. That was a more reasoned and rational post than your first...

QuoteThe annoyed part you totally deserve for even reading that crap. Hurwitz is an extremely bad reviewer, a hobby percussionist who has snapped up a few things here and there which make him look professional in the eyes of the uninformed. But he doesn't really know much about the things he reviews, he doesn't understand music making and performing traditions.

...which I thought was utter, emotional, nonsense, and still do. Perhaps in future you should refrain from criticizing people who read Hurwitz since you read him too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 10, 2008, 09:28:06 AM
Anybody can read and criticize what they like. We are all "entitled" to our opinions, remember?  ;)

When you are saying that, you are directly contradicting what you said yourself about the first part being "more reasoned and rational".

About the second part, that is neither emotional nor nonsense. A lot of people can't judge that because they have neither studied music nor played in good ensembles themselves, but I have, so I can have a very precise opinion about that. I know exactly what certain performing and playing traditions are since I grew up and studied them right in the dead center of many of those. He hasn't and it shows that he has no "deeper" background than playing percussion as a hobby in some American community orchestra. Which is cool, that's what I do as a hobby now myself. But he often pontificates about performing traditions he obviously doesn't understand, what orchestras "have no business" playing this or that repertoire and which do, and that is all total uninformed nonsense which, like I said earlier, I find embarassing to read because they reflect an unnecessary cultural inferiority complex.

And that doesn't have anything to do at all with differing opinions. Hurwitz often says that the Staatskapelle Dresden is Germany's "true top orchestra" - and I actually happen to agree. But that doesn't "justify" his totally over the top nonsense in other areas.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 10, 2008, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: M forever on January 10, 2008, 09:28:06 AM
But he often pontificates about performing traditions he obviously doesn't understand,
Where would that be? You have a link for that. I find that DH has strong opinions, but he seldom if ever makes gross generalizations.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on January 11, 2008, 07:53:57 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 10, 2008, 04:27:39 PM
Where would that be? You have a link for that. I find that DH has strong opinions, but he seldom if ever makes gross generalizations.

Actually, in his Mahler reviews he usually blabs on about the "Mahler sound" or this or that Mahler "tradition" or the absence thereof in one or another orchestra. He is often at his most jaded and closed minded when reviewing Mahler for some reason.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 11, 2008, 05:43:52 PM
Quote from: O Mensch on January 11, 2008, 07:53:57 AM
Actually, in his Mahler reviews he usually blabs on about the "Mahler sound" or this or that Mahler "tradition" or the absence thereof in one or another orchestra. He is often at his most jaded and closed minded when reviewing Mahler for some reason.

I think the reason fo that is that (IMO totally unnecessary) cultural inferiority complex I mentioned earlier. The fact that Mahler was a composer whose music did not enter the "mainstream" repertoire very quickly at all and that it took a while for the reception and interpretation of his music to happen on a larger scale, the fact that Mahler was in New York for a little while  and the myth Bernstein cultivated that he went to Vienna and "taught" them to play his music leads some people in America to believe that since Mahler's music was "rejected" in central Europe, it can be "claimed" like something that doesn't hve any connection with the cultural background it came from and that just floats around. So people like Hurwitz can now have their "own" classical music, too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 14, 2008, 03:59:27 AM
Release Date: 01/08/2008

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/101/1012608.jpg)

LvB "Ghost" Trio; Trio no. 3; Hummel Trio for Piano and Strings in G major, Op. 65
Daniel Sepec (Violin), Andreas Staier (Fortepiano), Jean-Guihen Queyras (Cello)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 14, 2008, 08:39:02 PM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/1907_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN: THE COMPLETE SYMPHONIES VOL. III
Symphony No. 7 in A major; Symphony No. 8 in F major; Symphony No. 9 in D minor "Choral"
Ingeborg Wenglor (soprano); Annelies Burmeister (contralto); Martin Ritzmann (tenor); Rolf Kuhne (bass)
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra / Paul Kletzki


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s8.gif)



 
[T]here is a special exalted sense in these [1960's] recordings that is rarely found today. Foremost, it is clear that Kletzki has an unwavering love for these scores, evident in his continued effort to have us hear everything in them. There's a lot more going on in this music than is usually revealed. The string runs after each statement of the main theme in Symphony No. 7's finale are just one example. In the Eighth's first movement, Kletzki points up the debt owed to Beethoven by today's jazz and rock musicians: the original funky bass line. He also shows how Beethoven's antiphonal effects in the Ninth's first movement lead right to the manuscripts of Anton Bruckner.

Kletzki ... injects life-giving energy into the music, not just horizontally (though he does employ the same rubato in the Seventh's finale that Leonard Bernstein did in his later Vienna Philharmonic recording), but with a strong sonic foundation that conveys the sense of purpose that makes his interpretations so satisfying. This is true nowhere more than in the Ninth's finale, which is full of grandeur yet without any of today's "authentic" tempos. Kletzki recognizes that the vocal element is just as important, if not more important, than the orchestral. Rolf Kuhne's "O Freunde" rivets our attention and literally sweeps away all that has gone before. Tenor Martin Ritzmann's heroic singing shames most of today's interpreters of the part.

...The Czech Philharmonic Chorus ... sings with a fervency that gives truth to Schiller's poem, and despite their massive forces, the singers make every syllable distinctly audible. Audible too is the marvelous Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, performing with miraculous clarity and robustness here and in the other two symphonies. The sound on these vintage Supraphon recordings is beautifully balanced with plenty of dynamic range, though the huge tuttis in the finale do suffer from some congestion. This release caps a terrific series. Don't miss it.


--Victor Carr
(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1907)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 15, 2008, 05:43:38 PM
Quote from: Dm on January 14, 2008, 08:39:02 PM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/1907_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN: THE COMPLETE SYMPHONIES VOL. III
Symphony No. 7 in A major; Symphony No. 8 in F major; Symphony No. 9 in D minor "Choral"
Ingeborg Wenglor (soprano); Annelies Burmeister (contralto); Martin Ritzmann (tenor); Rolf Kuhne (bass)
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra / Paul Kletzki


Beautiful writeup...agree with every word.




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 16, 2008, 05:12:29 AM
Quote from: donwyn on January 15, 2008, 05:43:38 PM
Beautiful writeup...agree with every word.

I especially agree with the comments about "injecting life-giving energy into the music....". 

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 16, 2008, 07:37:57 PM
Quote from: Dm on January 16, 2008, 05:12:29 AM
I especially agree with the comments about "injecting life-giving energy into the music....". 


Yes, very well put...



Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 16, 2008, 08:03:58 PM
Quote from: donwyn on January 16, 2008, 07:37:57 PM
Yes, very well put...

Likewise, donwyn, your statement is very well put ......... 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 16, 2008, 08:56:24 PM
Quote from: Dm on January 16, 2008, 08:03:58 PM
Likewise, donwyn, your statement is very well put ......... 

(http://www.serotta.com/forum/images/smilies/beer2.gif)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 19, 2008, 10:25:54 AM
From Wall Street Journal

Beethoven's Summation
His Ninth Symphony crystallizes all he learned and lived

By STUART ISACOFF
January 19, 2008; Page W14

In 1824, Ludwig van Beethoven, 53, deaf, cantankerous and increasingly world weary, bared his soul in a work so stunning in originality, scale and emotional power that virtually every great composer who followed has lived under its shadow. Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, with its final movement for chorus, four vocal soloists and orchestra set to Friedrich Schiller's poem "Ode to Joy," left so great an impact on the classical music world that a superstition arose in its wake. "It seems that the ninth is a limit," stated Arnold Schoenberg, mulling over the fortunes of Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler and other symphonists who never managed to complete a 10th symphony. "He who wants to go beyond it must pass away."

Beethoven's last symphony seemed to sum up everything the composer had learned and lived. A critic of his day described the music as filled with "never-imagined magical secrets." The piece has everything: Universes seem to collide; intricate textures give way to wild rhythmic contractions -- the birth pangs of a new musical art. There are long, exquisite stretches of heavenly repose, passages of punctilious counterpoint, and moments of earthy humor. There is even a Turkish band thrown in for good measure. And in the end, Beethoven delivers Schiller's ardent plea for universal brotherhood.


The conception is as modern and relevant today as it was nearly 200 years ago. Little wonder this was the work Leonard Bernstein chose to perform in the former East Berlin Schauspielhaus on Christmas Day, 1989, to celebrate the fall of the Berlin Wall, substituting the word "Freiheit" (freedom) for Schiller's "Freude" (joy). (The two words were as connected for Beethoven and Schiller as for Bernstein.) Earlier that same year, student protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square blared Beethoven's music over their loudspeakers as they stood up to armed Chinese troops.

The symphony's popularity has, if anything, grown over time. Last summer, I heard a performance at the Hollywood Bowl with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the Los Angeles Philharmonic and nearly 13,000 people were in attendance; the previous fall in Turin, Italy, I witnessed the La Scala chorus and orchestra performing it in an ice-hockey stadium that had been built for the Olympics. There, 10,000 men, women and children sat motionless at the conclusion of the performance, then stayed long into the night to cheer the orchestra members and singers.

And yet, this music is not especially easy to comprehend. Composer Hector Berlioz admitted that in some ways it remained unfathomable to him. Nevertheless, he asserted, if in composing it Beethoven broke some musical laws, as some contended, "So much the worse for the law!"

These were new forms, new visions of what music could do and say. The composer had begun early in his career to construct his compositions out of small musical cells, which grew organically, as if governed by a kind of musical DNA. Now, toward the end of his life, he shattered the model, allowing elements of his structures to break free and move in unorthodox ways, blurring distinctions between endings and beginnings, forming strange convergences and unconventional resolutions. The music unfolds as a psychological drama in which themes are declared, wrestle with each other and, in the final movement, strive to re-emerge -- only to become subsumed in the flame of heavenly bliss.

There are parallels here with Schiller's poem, and with the poet's philosophy of art. Schiller later called his "Ode to Joy" "entirely flawed." Nevertheless, Beethoven, who had some trepidation about adding singers to his symphonic work (a radical move), had begun trying to set the poem to music more than 32 years earlier. He was clearly attracted to its sentiments, which were fully outlined by Schiller in a work called "On the Aesthetic Education of Man" (1795): Art leads man, in stages, from primitive sensuality to ultimate perfection -- to a state of freedom and joy rooted in morality. The process involves a series of oppositions and syntheses -- an antagonism of forces that results first in disintegration, and then in the creation of a new, joyful wholeness. This could almost serve as an outline for Beethoven's method.

Naturally, the Ninth Symphony has its critics, and chief among them is a new breed of musicologist who sees the organizing principle of Western art music -- its reliance on the gravitational pull of tonal centers, and the artful control of musical tension and resolution -- as a direct reflection of the male libido and its primal urge toward domination. One of the leading figures of this school of thought, Susan McClary, found in the opening movement of Beethoven's masterpiece the "murderous rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release" (in her article "Getting Down Off the Beanstalk"; she subsequently toned down the language for a reprint in a published collection, but the sentiments remained the same). In the last century, thinkers like Max Weber and Theodore Adorno, who set out this sociological approach to musical analysis, quickly reached an intellectual dead end. But it thrives today on many college campuses, where scholarly rigor often takes a back seat to freakish conjecture -- especially when this serves the ideological goal of reducing great works to the mere tinkerings of "dead white men." (The irony, of course, is that cultures producing music free of those tonal principles -- the presumptive ideal -- generally turn out to be the most historically oppressive to women.) Beethoven will survive.

The genesis of the Ninth Symphony was a request made to the composer in 1822 by the London Philharmonic Society for a new work. Two years later, when word leaked out that Beethoven was considering premiering it in Berlin, a petition emerged in his hometown of Vienna, signed by some of the city's most distinguished musicians and patrons, pleading with him to reconsider because only Austria "may claim him as its own." Beethoven relented. But it's safe to say that from Berlin to Beijing, Turin to Los Angeles, when we hear this remarkable music today -- and perhaps dream a little, with Schiller, of a time when the spirit of joy "reunites all that custom has rudely divided" -- we can each claim him as our own.

Mr. Isacoff is the author of "Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization" and editor of Piano Today magazine.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on January 19, 2008, 04:25:40 PM
Opus 132 went beyond the 9th. Way beyond it. I'd daresay 131 as well. As far as being able to convey to another some of the most complex, profound feelings ...I'm not sure any music since matches those two.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 08, 2008, 01:25:50 PM

Beethoven Piano Trio in D The Ghost (2d movement)

2d mvt pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/v/d0iUipwyWrU

2d mvt pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/v/a5NnQeZXVF0

Cello: Jacqueline de Pré
Violin: Pinchas Zuckerman
Piano: Daniel Barenboim
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 08, 2008, 01:55:48 PM
Quote from: Haffner on January 19, 2008, 04:25:40 PM
Opus 132 went beyond the 9th. Way beyond it. I'd daresay 131 as well. As far as being able to convey to another some of the most complex, profound feelings ...I'm not sure any music since matches those two.

Just my opinion.

With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on February 08, 2008, 02:05:30 PM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on February 08, 2008, 01:55:48 PM
With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)



Great post, Rod.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on February 08, 2008, 08:54:48 PM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on February 08, 2008, 01:55:48 PM
With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)

Certainly the greatest opening movement at least.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Great Gable on February 09, 2008, 02:10:29 AM
For those of you who, like me, who had been looking for Furtwangler's Lucerne 1954 9th, this is now available...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001OFV

I don't know what the Tahra edition was like but this is absolutely fine, sound wise.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 09, 2008, 09:28:43 AM
Quote from: Haffner on February 08, 2008, 02:05:30 PM


Great post, Rod.

Wow that's the first time I've read that here.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 09, 2008, 09:36:06 AM
Quote from: George on February 08, 2008, 08:54:48 PM
Certainly the greatest opening movement at least.  :)

The finale is apparently too difficult for the stupid academy boys to direct. And the singers can't sing it either for the most part. Maybe in 100 years. But I'd be most interested to know what you would say is the best 'closing movement'?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on February 09, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on February 09, 2008, 09:36:06 AM
The finale is apparently too difficult for the stupid academy boys to direct. And the singers can't sing it either for the most part. Maybe in 100 years. But I'd be most interested to know what you would say is the best 'closing movement'?

Could you first explain what you mean about the singers? We were discussing the SQs.  ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on February 09, 2008, 09:55:16 AM
Quote from: George on February 09, 2008, 09:53:54 AM
Could you first explain what you mean about the singers? We were discussing the SQs.  ???




I was thrown on that one as well...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: knight66 on February 09, 2008, 11:39:43 PM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on February 08, 2008, 01:55:48 PM
With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)

Did Beethoven explicitly nail the idea he could not be as experimental with the symphony as he could be in chamber music?

Surely it depends what the composer wants to experiment with. I don't accept the premise that composers 'can't' be as experimental in the symphony. Mahler's 8th was experimental. Messiaen's Turangalîla Symphony was experimental. Neither would have been able to compress what you hear in those two symphonies into chamber pieces and preserve those forms or textures, sonorities or layers of sound. It is certainly more risky and expensive for composers to experiment with a full scale symphony; but wrong to suggest it cannot, or has not, been done.

It also may depend on whether a composer as been commissioned and the terms of the commission.

I am not sure that is it sustainable even to claim that chamber music is more personal. (I know that point was not actually discussed.) Tempting, but really it might be more intimate rather; and while some composers pour themselves more personally into a work for small forces, others did not....again, it depends on the needs of the artist to express what they need to, when they need to.

Mike
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on February 10, 2008, 12:43:11 AM
Quote from: Rod Corkin on February 09, 2008, 09:28:43 AM
Wow that's the first time I've read that here.

Yes, but it doesn't mean much because Mr Haffner is always nice to everybody (even me!!!). I guess that makes him a good person but it doesn't change the fact that you are still an egghead who is talking about stuf he doesn't have the slightest clue about.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 10, 2008, 08:54:22 AM
Philistines will never dull Beethoven
By Michael Henderson
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT Feb 09, 2008

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/graphics/2008/02/09/do0902.jpg)

Something remarkable is going on at the Royal Festival Hall, where Daniel Barenboim, the master pianist, has reached the halfway point of his cycle of the Beethoven sonatas: 16 gone, 16 to go. The journey resumes tonight, and the fact that tickets for all eight concerts have gone won't stop people trying to grab a return.

A journey it is, in the truest musical sense of "always travelling, never arriving". Barenboim, who is 66 this year, has played these sonatas for almost half a century, and never tires of them, for the same reason that his listeners cannot tire of them. Beethoven is the most challenging of composers, and possibly the most protean spirit in the history of human endeavour. To tire of his music is to renounce life itself.

It diminishes Barenboim to call him merely a pianist. He is also a celebrated conductor in the concert hall and opera house, and an educator of world renown who has brought together young Israelis and Palestinians in the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, a project he established nine years ago with the late Edward Said, that has done so much to build bridges. Last month, uniquely for an Israeli, he was granted Palestinian citizenship.

So it is Danny the man, as well as Barenboim the artist, that music lovers are responding to in these concerts. Sir Neville Cardus wrote of the young Barenboim, the schoolboy who made such an impression on Furtwängler, that he was "probably the most gifted musician of his years since Busoni", and those gifts, the fruits of abundance, have ripened with the decades.

With these Beethoven recitals, therefore, we are honouring one of the most extraordinary men of our time for a life's devotion to music, and very moving it is, too. British audiences do not offer many standing ovations, a detachment that does them credit, yet each night during this cycle the house has risen as one. The performance of the Appassionata on Wednesday, when Barenboim was almost reckless in his execution of the final presto, prompted a spontaneous roar that could have been heard on the other side of the Thames. These are events we shall remember for a lifetime.

***

Audiences at the Festival Hall are currently bathed in a celestial light, the light of Beethoven, mediated through the head, heart and fingers of a great musician. With joy and gratitude, we resume the journey
tonight.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 10, 2008, 09:13:45 AM
Quote from: knight on February 09, 2008, 11:39:43 PM
Did Beethoven explicitly nail the idea he could not be as experimental with the symphony as he could be in chamber music?

Surely it depends what the composer wants to experiment with. I don't accept the premise that composers 'can't' be as experimental in the symphony. Mahler's 8th was experimental. Messiaen's Turangalîla Symphony was experimental. Neither would have been able to compress what you hear in those two symphonies into chamber pieces and preserve those forms or textures, sonorities or layers of sound. It is certainly more risky and expensive for composers to experiment with a full scale symphony; but wrong to suggest it cannot, or has not, been done.

It also may depend on whether a composer as been commissioned and the terms of the commission.

I am not sure that is it sustainable even to claim that chamber music is more personal. (I know that point was not actually discussed.) Tempting, but really it might be more intimate rather; and while some composers pour themselves more personally into a work for small forces, others did not....again, it depends on the needs of the artist to express what they need to, when they need to.

Mike


Well of course compared to other symphonic composers of the time even Beethoven's symphonies were quite radical in some respects. We all know that nincompoop CMvWeber cited the 7th as evidence of Beethoven's entry ticket to the mad-house. And the choral finale of the 9th is seen as a step too far by many even today. So it is a relative position. I would simply say Beethoven allowed himself certain 'liberties' with chamber music that he didn't with the symphony, because chamber music is a more flexible media. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I take the symphonic 'liberties' taken by the Romantics as good evidence that Beethoven was correct, he was and remains the benchmark for symphonic music.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: knight66 on February 10, 2008, 09:52:22 AM
Fine, thanks....we are not far apart over the issue then.

Mike
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 12, 2008, 06:23:50 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/929914.jpg)

Release Date: 07/26/2007
Label:  Deutsche Grammophon   Catalog #: 463626   Spars Code: n/a 
Performer:  Irmgard Seefried,  Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,  Ernst Haefliger,  Maureen Forrester
Conductor:  Ferenc Fricsay
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra,  St. Hedwig's Cathedral Choir



This ...remains among the best [LvB Ninths] ever recorded. *** Perhaps what governs this performance more than any other single quality is rhythm: a wholly natural, impulsive, life-affirming forward momentum that makes the first two movements breathtakingly exciting, endows the very slow (18 minutes) Adagio with an unforgettably timeless grace, and caries the choral finale forward on an irresistible wave of increasing joyousness. A fine quartet of soloists, enthusiastic chorus, gorgeously expansive recorded sound (superbly remastered), and wonderful playing by the Berlin Philharmonic (by no means a consistently exceptional ensemble in 1958), set the seal on a performance that should never have been permitted to leave the active catalog. Thank God it's back. Terrific Egmont Overture too. Enjoy while you can!

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=57870)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ephemerid on February 12, 2008, 12:19:41 PM
I tend to prefer the quartets to the symphonies as well-- not that the symphonies are not good!  But there's something going on in those late quartets that I think goes far beyond the symphonies-- and far beyond "classicism" or "romanticism."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2008, 12:38:21 PM
Quote from: Dm on January 19, 2008, 10:25:54 AM
From Wall Street Journal
One of the leading figures of this school of thought, Susan McClary, found in the opening movement of Beethoven's masterpiece the "murderous rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release" (in her article "Getting Down Off the Beanstalk"; she subsequently toned down the language for a reprint in a published collection, but the sentiments remained the same). In the last century, thinkers like Max Weber and Theodore Adorno, who set out this sociological approach to musical analysis, quickly reached an intellectual dead end.

I don't think this gentleman has ever read either Max Weber or Th.W. Adorno. Adorno saw history and society impinging in a very profound way on musical processes. But he was never so crass and vulgar as to equate Beethoven's dynamism with rape. His mind was too subtle for that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 14, 2008, 02:59:50 PM
From NEW YORK TIMES

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/02/14/arts/Curtisspan.jpg)

February 14, 2008
Music Review
Why, Beethoven, You've Gone Mahlerian
By BERNARD HOLLAND


Gustav Mahler's orchestral transcription of Beethoven's Opus 95 String Quartet suggests that inside every thin man is a fat one trying to get out. Such urges for physical change are usually practical ones; artistic advantage tends to be accidental.

Mahler, as conductor of a big orchestra, wanted the opportunity to have an admired chamber piece for himself. The Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, which has been making this particular quartet and its enlargement a classroom preoccupation, sent its Curtis Symphony Orchestra to Carnegie Hall on Tuesday night to show what it has been learning. The added attraction was having Alan Gilbert, the New York Philharmonic's music-director-to-be, as conductor.

Although the notes stay the same, avoirdupois has a major effect on most music. The results can be instructive, sometimes helpful and sometimes not. For rehearsal purposes Stravinsky reduced his "Sacre du Printemps" for two pianists, draining away its color and heft but providing a clarifying X-ray view. Dvorak orchestrated his piano four-hand "Slavonic Dances" and did it well.

The art of transcription's biggest success story might be Haydn's "Seven Last Words of Christ." Using the common marketing strategy of the day, Haydn reduced his orchestra original to a string quartet, providing manageable and salable home entertainment for amateur players. The intimacy discovered may be more compelling than in either the orchestral version or the choral adaptation he also made.

As played by the dazzling young Curtis musicians, Beethoven-Mahler had the disadvantage of sounding too beautiful. Different string sections resonated and echoed with unintended grandness. Given the exceptional ability of the ensemble (all strings for this piece) to articulate busy detail, this was still powerful Beethoven but of a different sort. Missing was the grit of a single instrument on a part, the sweat emanating from four players hard at work. This is tough, wiry music. Overeating does it no good.

Beethoven's jarring harmonic subtleties and changes of pace survived. A superior conductor's knowledge of balance and emphasis, and his skill at conveying that knowledge, made the difference. Mr. Gilbert does not cut a glamorous, charismatic figure, but I hope the Philharmonic will buy into his music making.





Felder Completes Composer Trilogy with 'Beethoven' at Geffen
Back to the Article
by BWW News Desk

On the heels of the acclaimed productions of George Gershwin Alone and Monsieur Chopin, the Geffen Playhouse announces the highly anticipated culmination of Hershey Felder's Composer Trilogy, Beethoven, As I Knew Him, to kick off the theater's 2008-09 season.  In Beethoven, As I Knew Him, award winning performer Hershey Felder brings the character of Ludwig van Beethoven to life through the eyes of Beethoven's last surviving friend, as well as through the eternal sounds of the maestro's greatest musical works. Based on a true story, Beethoven, As I Knew Him completes Hershey Felder's musical trilogy entitled The Composer Sonata.

Felder, now world-famous for his lauded portrayals of George Gershwin, Fryderyk Chopin and Beethoven, returns to the Geffen after his nearly sold-out run of George Gershwin Alone and Monsieur Chopin last summer.  The productions received twelve LA Ovation Award nominations and won four awards, including Best Musical and Best Lead Actor in a Musical.  The Geffen Playhouse also welcomes back award winning director Joel Zwick (My Big Fat Greek Wedding).

Beethoven, As I Knew Him features music by Beethoven with text by Felder. The creative team includes Francois-Pierre Couture (sets), Richard Norwood (lighting), Erik Carstensen (sound).
(http://broadwayworld.com/viewcolumn.cfm?colid=25175)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 14, 2008, 03:05:09 PM
From NEW YORK TIMES

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/02/12/arts/curtisspan.jpg)

February 12, 2008
What's in a Beethoven Quartet? A Full Curriculum
By DANIEL J. WAKIN
PHILADELPHIA — It is Distillate of Beethoven: 21 minutes of sharply compressed music that shows him in all his violent, tragic, angry, plaintive, contemplative guises. For four months it has haunted the halls of the Curtis Institute of Music, the elite conservatory here.

In an unusual educational experiment Curtis has established Beethoven's String Quartet No. 11 in F minor (Op. 95) as the touchstone of the academic year for its 160 students. Imagine a year of medical school revolving around the liver, or a car repair course centered on the Chrysler LeBaron.

A highlight of the Opus 95 Project, as it is called, is a performance of Mahler's orchestral transcription of the quartet by the Curtis Symphony Orchestra at Carnegie Hall on Tuesday evening. Alan Gilbert, a Curtis alumnus who is to become music director of the New York Philharmonic in 2009, will conduct. The program also includes Nielsen's Symphony No. 3 and Barber's "School for Scandal" Overture.

Back in the wood-paneled rooms of Curtis, a cozy hothouse of talent with oil paintings, creaky stairs and free tuition, Opus 95 is everywhere you look.

Each violinist, violist and cellist has worked on the piece in a quartet with coaches; literature courses cover the Beethoven letters that mention it; the music history survey course required of first-year students will devote classes to it this week; the advanced music theory course picked apart its structure.

Bruce Adolphe, the composer and lecturer, gave a talk analyzing the work as a musical example of Tourette's syndrome. Top string players performed Opus 95 for the public in December.

The attention devoted to the piece contrasts with what Beethoven himself wrote in a letter: that it was "written for a small circle of connoisseurs and is never to be performed in public." In this case make it a large circle of connoisseurs.

"It's turned out to be an incredible educational experience for the kids," said Roberto Díaz, the president of Curtis. "There's a common thread running through everything that they're thinking about. They're learning about how the world that this piece was created in affected the creation of the piece."

The germ of the idea came from Mr. Díaz, a former principal violist of the Philadelphia Orchestra who is in his second year at Curtis. One of his favorite recordings, he said, is a Leonard Bernstein performance of two late Beethoven quartets with the Vienna Philharmonic. The program notes mentioned that Bernstein had the string players prepare by playing the chamber music version, Mr. Díaz said.

"One day I was listening to this recording, and I thought this would be so incredible for the kids at school to be able to do something like this," he said. He approached Mr. Gilbert, who was scheduled to conduct the Curtis orchestra this year, with the idea. Mr. Gilbert suggested the Mahler transcription of Opus 95, a work he had met as a violinist with a string orchestra in younger days. Mr. Díaz took him up on it.

Written in 1810, the work is considered a culmination of Beethoven's second period and looks forward to the late quartets "in its dominant qualities of conciseness, directness and instant confrontation of contrast," the musicologist Joseph Kerman wrote in "The Beethoven Quartets."

It is called the "Quartetto Serioso," a rare instance in which Beethoven himself bestowed a subtitle. "The F minor Quartet is not a pretty piece, but it is terribly strong — and perhaps rather terrible," Mr. Kerman wrote. "Everything unessential falls victim, leaving a residue of extreme concentration, in dangerously high tension. But strength, not strain, is the commanding impression."

The key, F minor, is that of the "Appassionata" Piano Sonata, the storm scene in the Sixth Symphony and the "Egmont" Overture, Lewis Lockwood points out in his biography "Beethoven."

At Curtis one day last week, the work was on view at different angles. In the morning in Jeanne Minahan McGinn's language and literature class, Benjamin Beilman, a violinist, delivered an oral report on the quartet. "Obviously this is very typical of Beethoven," he said. "He switches character very, very rapidly." Mr. Beilman heard Beethoven's frustration at growing deaf in the quartet's angry moments. He suggested that the mood swings of the piece supported a theory that Beethoven was bipolar.

In the afternoon Mr. Gilbert led a coaching session on the quartet for the principals of the orchestra string sections: Sylvia Kim, the concertmistress; Quan Yuan, the principal second violinist; Philip Kramp, the principal violist; and Abraham Feder, the principal cellist.

Mr. Gilbert drilled them on the gesture needed to start the piece, on the lengths of notes ending phrases, on rhythmic inflections of the opening bars. The opening is "explosive, defiant, like 'me against the world,' " he said.

"It sounds a little uptight the way you're playing it," he added.

The second movement opens with a lone descending cello scale. Mr. Gilbert told Mr. Feder to "feel that delicious twinge of pain."

Several hours later Mr. Gilbert was in front of the string orchestra, rehearsing the large-scale version, which Mahler transcribed with few changes. The contrast was fascinating: from the terse, internal dialogue of the quartet to the lush and powerful communal expression of the orchestra version. Mr. Gilbert struggled to have the orchestra react quickly to his gestures, to infuse their lines with character.

In an interview later he compared the quartet version to a sports car and the orchestra version to a truck. "But I would like the orchestra to function like a sports car," he said. In both versions of the piece, he said he wanted the players to have a "highly developed point of view about the music."

Mr. Díaz said the "jury is still out" on the ultimate success of the project but suggested that the idea might be repeated with other works.

Not all the students were thrilled with the Opus 95 Project. Several said they did not have much to do with it: wind players, not surprisingly.

"The idea of a schoolwide, one-piece project is really cool," said Matthew McDonald, a bassoonist. "I just think we could have been more involved directly."

The project also took a little gentle ribbing. At the Curtis holiday party, where the students traditionally put on humorous skits, Mr. McDonald and a fellow student wrote a number about a contrabassoonist struggling through an audition.

The music? Opus 95.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on February 14, 2008, 03:07:29 PM
Quote from: Dm on February 14, 2008, 02:59:50 PM
From NEW YORK TIMES

...

February 14, 2008
Music Review
Why, Beethoven, You've Gone Mahlerian
By BERNARD HOLLAND

I never cease to be amazed how much time and space Holland wastes criticizing music for what it isn't trying to be.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on February 14, 2008, 08:25:06 PM
What do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 20, 2008, 02:51:44 PM
From Reuters

Beethoven's Music hits right note for stroke patients
Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:21pm EST
By Michael Kahn

LONDON (Reuters) - A little Beethoven is good for the brain, according to a Finnish study published on Wednesday showing that music helps people recover more quickly from strokes. And patients who listened to a few hours of music each day soon after a stroke also improved their verbal memory and were in a better mood compared to patients who did not listen to music or used audio books, the researchers said.
Music therapy has long been used in a range of treatments but the study published in the journal Brain is the first to show the effect in people, they added. "These findings demonstrate for the first time that music listening during the early post-stroke stage can enhance cognitive recovery and prevent negative mood," the researchers wrote. Strokes, which occur when blood flow to the brain is blocked, can kill brain tissue and are one of the worldwide leading causes of death and permanent disability. Treatments include blood thinning drugs and attempts to lower cholesterol.

The study involved 60 people who recently had a stroke of the middle cerebral artery in the left or right side of the brain. This is the most common stroke and can affect motor control, speech and a range of other cognitive functions.

One group listened to their favorite music every day or used audio books while another did not listen to any music. All volunteers received standard rehabilitation treatment.
Three months after stroke music listeners showed a 60 percent better improvement in verbal memory compared to an 18 percent benefit for those using audio books and 29 percent for people who did not listen to either.

The ability to focus attention also improved by 17 percent in music listeners, said Teppo Sarkamo, a psychologist at the Cognitive Brain Research Unit at the University of Helsinki, who led the study.
"We can't say what is happening in the brain but based on previous research and theory it may be music listening could actually activate the brain areas that are recovering," he said in a telephone interview.
Music might also in some way activate more general mechanisms that repair and renew the brain's neural networks after stroke, Sarkamo said.

Larger studies are needed to better understand exactly what is going on but these findings show that music may offer a cheap, easy additional treatment for stroke patients, he said.
"This could be considered a pilot study," Sarkamo said. "It is a promising start.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 20, 2008, 02:55:31 PM
Barenboim's Beethoven Will Resound for Decades: Norman Lebrecht

Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- There were 3,000 of us who stood and cheered, and three days later we are still trying to understand. Veterans concurred that nothing of its kind had been heard in London since the heyday of Horowitz and Rubinstein.

Daniel Barenboim's concerts were no three-day wonder, no three-week wonder even. They will be remembered for decades. The editor of the Guardian newspaper today described the result as ``beyond perfection.''

After the final chord of Beethoven's 32nd piano sonata at the Royal Festival Hall on Sunday, there followed 15 long seconds of complete silence before the audience leapt to their feet in ovation and the most riveting event of this musical century was declared closed.

In eight recitals over a span of three weeks, Barenboim had been playing the Beethoven sonatas in London as a single coherent entity and with intensity that has commanded attention outside the world of classical music. Barenboim, probably the only classical musician alive who can speak with moral authority on the great issues of the day, understands Beethoven as a composer of hope -- a man who perceives the world and its problems to be, with good will, surmountable.

This would have been reason enough for London to flock to his pulpit, given the leading role he has taken in promoting cultural and political dialogue in the Middle East. ``The Artist as Leader'' was how the series was marketed -- not that it needed any marketing. About 650 people bought tickets to the entire cycle, many of them on the day booking opened. Politicians of every color and leaders of media and industry were conspicuous in the audience.

Extreme Intimacy

Around 150 extra seats were crammed onto the stage, within three feet of the piano. This extreme intimacy added an extra dimension to Barenboim's concentration. From the opening notes, the hall shrunk to the size of a domestic living room.

There was additionally a sense that this event was unique and unrepeatable. Barenboim had declined a radio relay, explaining to one BBC panjandrum that London critics had not always treated him kindly in the past. In a cycle of this magnitude, played from memory, there were bound to be wrong notes -- indeed, there were. Nevertheless, the critical reception was, from the outset, overwhelmed by the Olympian ambition of the enterprise.

Barenboim, 65, first played the cycle in public as a teenager in Tel Aviv and has recorded it twice. But this was neither an athletic feat nor a commercial gift set performed for the sake of comprehensiveness. This was an artist at the summit of his powers approaching the music of life with both wisdom and humility.

Troubled Beethoven

Each program contained sonatas from the three periods of Beethoven's troubled life, early, middle and late. Each sonata was invested by Barenboim with a distinctive character.

In the final recital, the 9th sonata (opus 14/1) was marked by introspective restraint, the 4th (opus 7) was playful and exuberant, the 22nd (opus 54) moderately combative and the climactic opus 111 possessed of a visionary wildness that yielded at the end to a surreal calm.

This was beyond question a contemporary reading -- there were modulations in the opus 14/1 that would not have sounded out of place on a Radiohead album. But it was also an interpretation born of an innate understanding of the composer and his mind.

The closing melody of the opus 7 called to mind a hint of Beethoven's ``Choral Fantasia,'' itself a sketch for the Ninth Symphony, reminding us that everything written by this composer was hewn from the same gigantic mountain and with the same elevated message in mind.

Barenboim seemed to be playing, as the phrase goes, ``well within himself'' -- in the dual sense that he did not make large gestures and that he was preoccupied with interior thoughts.

Extreme Exertion

At certain points his exertion was so extreme that he would hold a chord with his right hand, pedaling heavily, while reaching with his left for a handkerchief to mop the sweat.

I cannot ever recall such sustained audience concentration in so large a space. The young man sitting next to me was attending the first piano recital of his life, drawn to the flame by an article he had read. He barely blinked an eye for two hours.

And when it was over, when the rumpled pianist in dark suit and black shirt returned one last time to the stage to greet his communicants on all four sides, he placed the stool beneath the keyboard and gently shut the lid. Will we ever hear its like again?  
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on February 21, 2008, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: M forever on February 14, 2008, 08:25:06 PM
What do you mean by that?

I mean that Holland complains that a Mahler transcription of a Beethoven quartet makes it sound bigger and not as intimate. Well, duh! Point is that Mahler was aiming for something entirely different with this transcription, but Holland's ears and mind are to plugged up to hear it.

"Gustav Mahler's orchestral transcription of Beethoven's Opus 95 String Quartet suggests that inside every thin man is a fat one trying to get out."

He's one of the shittiest writers in classical music in the US this side of Hurwitz. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 02, 2008, 03:05:37 AM
Martha Argerich; Live From the Lugano Festival 2007




"[Argerich's] fire is evident in Beethoven's Op 70 No 1, the Ghost trio. But every musician is energised. Mischa Maisky's cello, in the same work, hugs the listener like a friendly bear, though there's plenty of scary tension when needed in the largo's climax. Here and elsewhere, Renaud Capuçon, the violinist, lets the emotions vibrate."

(http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article3452473.ece)




TRACKLISTING

CD 1
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Trio in D major Op. 70 No 1 for piano , violin and cello

«Geister-Trio»

[1] 1. Allegro vivace con brio
[2] 2. Largo assai ed espressivo
[3] 3. Presto

Martha Argerich, pianoforte
Renaud Capuçon, violino
Mischa Maisky, violoncello

Ferruccio Busoni (1866-1924) / Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791)
[4] Fantasie für eine Orgelwalze

Martha Argerich, piano
Lilya Zilberstein, piano

Robert Schumann (1810 - 1856)

[5] Andante and Variation for two pianos Op 46

Martha Argerich, piano
Gabriela Montero, piano

Robert Schumann (1810-1856)
Kinderszenen op. 15

[6] 1. Von fremden Ländern und Menschen
[7] 2. Kuriose Geschichte
[8] 3. Hasche-Mann
[9] 4. Bittendes Kind
[10] 5. Glückes genug
[11] 6. Wichtige Begebenheit
[12] 7. Träumerei
[13] 8. Am Kamin
[14] 9. Ritter vom Steckenpferd
[15] 10. Fast zu ernst
[16] 11. Fürchtenmachen
[17] 12. Kind und Einschlummern
[18] 13. Der Dichter spricht

Martha Argerich, piano




CD2

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827)
Quartet in D major, WoO 36, No. 2
for violin, viola, violoncello and piano

[1] 1. Allegro moderato
[2] 2. Andante con moto
[3] 3. Rondo. Allegro

Karin Lechner, piano
Alissa Margulis, violin
Lida Chen, viola
Mark Dobrinsky, cello

Maurice Ravel (1875-1937)
Ma mère l'oye, suite for piano four hands

[4] 1. Pavane de la Belle au bois dormante (Lent)
[5] 2. Petit Poucet (Très modéré)
[6] 3. Laideronnette, Impératrice des pagodes
(Mouvement de marche)
[7] 4. Les entretiens de la Belle et de la Bête
(Mouvement de valse modéré)
[8] 5. Le jardin féerique (Lent et grave).

Martha Argerich, piano
Alxander Mogilevsky, piano

Mikhail I. Glinka (1804-1857)
Grand Sextet for piano, two violins, viola, cello and doublebass

[9] 1. Larghetto - Moderato – Allegretto
[10] 2. Andante cantabile
[11] 3. Vivace

Alexander Mogilevsky, piano
Lucy Hall, violin
Alissa Margulis, violin
Nora Romanoff-Schwarzberg, viola
Mark Drobinsky, cello
Enrico Fagone, double bass

Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
[12] Thème et variations pour Violon et Piano (1932)

Alissa Margulis, violin
Francesco Piemontese, piano

Maurice Ravel (1875-1937)
Daphnis et Chloé, Suite No 2
(transcribed for two pianos by Lucien Garban)

[13] 1. Lever du jour (Lent)
[14] 2. Pantomime (Lent – Très lent – Vif – Très lent)
[15] 3. Danse générale (Lent – Animé)

Sergio Tiempo, piano
Karin Lechner, piano




CD 3

Béla Bartók (1881-1945)
Sonata No 1 Sz 75 for violin and piano
[1] 1. Allegro appassionato
[2] 2. Adagio
[3] 3. Allegro

Renaud Capuçon, violino
Martha Argerich, piano

Ernst von Dohnányi (1877-1960)
Quintet No 1 in C minor for piano, two violins, viola and violoncello, op.1
[4] 1. Allegro
[5] 2. Scherzo
[6] 3. Adagio, quasi Andante
[7] 4. Finale. Allegro animato

Nicholas Angelich, piano
Dora Schwarzberg, violin
Lucy Hall, violin
Nora Romanoff-Schwarzberg, viola
Jorge Bosso, cello

Witold Lutoslawski (1913-1994)
[8] Variations on a theme of Paganini
Martha Argerich, piano
Mauricio Vallina, piano
Live recordings: Auditorio Stelio Molo, Lugano, June 2007
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 06, 2008, 10:40:01 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11529_coverpic.jpg)
Eroica, Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra / Andrew Manze / Harmonia Mundi




"...taken on its own terms, and with the very enlightening couplings, this well-played, well-engineered SACD multichannel release remains a most attractive option."

(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11529)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 08, 2008, 04:00:47 PM
Quote from: Dm on February 10, 2008, 08:54:22 AM


Something remarkable is going on at the Royal Festival Hall, where Daniel Barenboim, the master pianist, has reached the halfway point of his cycle of the Beethoven sonatas: 16 gone, 16 to go. The journey resumes tonight, and the fact that tickets for all eight concerts have gone won't stop people trying to grab a return.



*Wipes drool from mouth, then passes Kleenex box to wife so she can do the same.*
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 10, 2008, 04:40:24 AM

The BSO barrels through Beethoven
By Tim Smith, Sun Music Critic
March 8, 2008
(http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/music/bal-to.bso08mar08,0,2331961.story)


"Beethoven's grip on the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra tightened this week, and its grip on Beethoven tightened as well.  By season's end, all nine of the composer's symphonies will have been heard. His fist-shaking Fifth got a bracing workout Thursday at the Music Center at Strathmore, as did a shorter piece of equally compelling drama and propulsion, the Leonore Overture No. 3.  In between came music of our time, Christopher Rouse's Flute Concerto, which generated considerable drama and propulsion of its own. (The program is now at Meyerhoff Symphony Hall.)  BSO music director Marin Alsop likes her Beethoven lean and mean, and that's how it sounded here - zero-percent body fat, but plenty of sinew."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 10, 2008, 06:03:39 AM
I wish the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra would stop using the acronym BSO which to most of us means the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: paulb on March 10, 2008, 04:15:11 PM
Quote from: Dm on March 10, 2008, 04:40:24 AM

The BSO barrels through Beethoven
By Tim Smith, Sun Music Critic
March 8, 2008
(http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/music/bal-to.bso08mar08,0,2331961.story)


"Beethoven's grip on the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra tightened this week, and its grip on Beethoven tightened as well.  By season's end, all nine of the composer's symphonies will have been heard. His fist-shaking Fifth got a bracing workout Thursday at the Music Center at Strathmore, as did a shorter piece of equally compelling drama and propulsion, the Leonore Overture No. 3.  In between came music of our time, Christopher Rouse's Flute Concerto, which generated considerable drama and propulsion of its own. (The program is now at Meyerhoff Symphony Hall.)  BSO music director Marin Alsop likes her Beethoven lean and mean, and that's how it sounded here - zero-percent body fat, but plenty of sinew."

LONG LIVE VON BEETHOVEN
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lethevich on March 10, 2008, 04:59:29 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 10, 2008, 06:03:39 AM
I wish the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra would stop using the acronym BSO which to most of us means the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

They could use "Baltso" - kinda of catchy :P
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Norbeone on March 11, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
Why can't we talk about Mendelssohn in this thread?!?! Jeez.....







>:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2008, 05:58:21 AM
Quote from: Norbeone on March 11, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
Why can't we talk about Mendelssohn in this thread?!?! Jeez.....







>:D

Mendelssohn wrote one of his early piano sonatas as a birthday gift for his sister. He was only 15 or 16 at the time, but it is really an impressive piece of work. It is in Bb, 4 movements including an extended fugue movement, and he numbered it Op 106... I guess he was a fanboy himself.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Saul on March 11, 2008, 01:21:55 PM
Quote from: Dm on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"  

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."  

          ~ Gustav Mahler






Ammm.. the word propoganda comes to mind...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 11, 2008, 04:24:24 PM
Quote from: Lethe on March 10, 2008, 04:59:29 PM
They could use "Baltso" - kinda of catchy :P
I prefer Orchestra of the Underachievers. So much potential, such shallow playing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 12, 2008, 03:44:33 PM
Quote from: Saul on March 11, 2008, 01:21:55 PM
Ammm.. the word propoganda comes to mind...



"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."

          ~ Gustav Mahler



I think Herr Mahler could have added himself to the latter list at least, and Herr Wagner to the first. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 12, 2008, 09:39:32 PM
This is a great Beethoven CD, by a great Pianist:

(http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/df/3c/ddd3_1.JPG)

See signature for details.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 05:21:04 AM

Kuerti To The Rescue

Talk about father-son bonding. For those who didn't hear... Last night, pianist Leon Fleisher was too ill to perform with the Boston Symphony Orchestra. This left assistant conductor Julian Kuerti in the lurch until, that is, dad stepped onto the stage. See, Anton Kuerti can play.  We don't normally review the last night of a concert series, but we were able to get Matthew Guerrieri over to Symphony Hall.

Here's a sneak peak of his review, which will run in the Globe tomorrow.  Tuesday's Boston Symphony Orchestra concert paid tribute to every parent who ever bailed his kid out of a jam. Pianist Leon Fleisher fell victim to a stomach virus late Tuesday afternoon, putting the evening's scheduled performance of Beethoven's Piano Concerto no. 5 ("Emperor")  in jeopardy. But BSO assistant conductor Julian Kuerti, making his official debut with the orchestra on these concerts, had a fallback: His dad was in town. And Anton Kuerti is one of the best interpreters of Beethoven around.

The Vienna-born pianist, now something of a national treasure in Canada, has an impeccable lineage, having studied with Rudolf Serkin and Mieczyslaw Horszowski. His playing is strikingly individual, yet honors the spirit of Horszowski's teacher, the legendary Theodor Leschetizky: a focus on line and touch, a clear and flexible rhythm, a deeply analytical and exploratory approach. The latter quality was immediately apparent on Tuesday; not a note had been taken for granted, with even the most prosaic passages refracted through a powerful intellectual prism. 

The elder Kuerti fully exploits the percussive attack of the piano without the tone ever becoming brittle. The opening movement's coursing scales buzzed and rang with bright power and stinging accents, while a quiet sharpness in the lyrical theme kept the electric current alive. Beethoven's explosive juxtapositions were not merely jolts, but the sudden release of coiled tension.

In the second-movement aria, Kuerti shaped the melody with a manifold palette of articulation, innumerable precisely-cut facets, but also deployed an uncanny consistency of tone to give Beethoven's more obsessive, repeated patterns a slow-burning intensity. An occasional delicate staccato and a touch of melting rubato emphasized the off-balance polyrhythms at the finale's outset, making the movement's thumping peroration all the more triumphant. After orchestra and soloist brought the music to a near-inaudible stillness, the piano positively detonated the blazing coda.

Contrasting with his father's often wiry tone, the younger Kuerti drew sumptuous sounds from the orchestra, making the concerto a real dialogue rather than a homogenized ersatz symphony. (He took a similar approach in the program's first half: a vibrant and dashing account of Oliver Knussen's "The Way to Castle Yonder" and a dark, robust reading of Dvorak's Seventh Symphony.) With no chance for rehearsal, rough edges were inevitable. But emphasizing spontaneity over smoothness, inquiry over indulgence, father and son showed why some warhorses deserve their status -- how, with enough intelligence and daring, even familiar music can seem new.

(http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/exhibitionist/anton.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 05:25:15 AM



Beethovenfest Features Politics of Music

(http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1514558_1,00.jpg)

This year's month-long Beethovenfest Bonn, will explore the relationship between power, politics and music, organizers have announced. Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a multifaceted composer whose compositions have unequalled staying power.

Each year, Beethoven's birth city, Bonn, hosts an internationally acclaimed music festival in his honor. This year, the organizers have picked a particularly contemporary topic: the relationship between power, politics and music.

Deutsche Welle is an official media partner of the event, which will bring about 2,000 well-known artists from around the world to the former German capital city. For the past four years the Beethovenfest has focused on various countries. But this year's month-long event, which starts Aug. 29, will focus on the political aspects of Beethoven's legacy.


It will look at the political statements Beethoven made through his work as well as with the ideological misappropriation of his music in the 20th century. As part of this examination, several concerts will be held in Bonn venues with political and social importance such as the former West German parliamentary chambers, the Palais Schaumburg where former chancellors lived and worked and the Hotel Petersberg, the seat of the Allied High Commission after World War II.


Persecuted composers

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  Masur will conduct all nine symphonies

By examining the misappropriation and marginalization in music, this year's Beethovenfest will set about exploring a very contemporary and explosive topic. "Ostracized music, forbidden music, the relationship between music and politics today -- the question of how music is functionalized, even today, that is a cutting edge theme," said Ilona Schmiel, the Beethovenfest's director.

One of the event's highlights will be a project led by the British violinist Daniel Hope. With his "Music was Hope" program, he will explore artists who were in the Nazi's Theresienstadt concentration camp located in what is now the Czech Republic. Hope, Philip Dukes and Ulrich Mattes will interpret music of Gideon Klein, Hans Krasa and Erwin Schulhoff. Hope will also present his arrangement of Maurice Ravel's Jewish Kaddish music.  "This is an examination of music that originated in the concentration camps from very young and courageous Czech composers," Hope said.

Klein was in his early 20s when he was imprisoned in the camp. He was already a talented pianist and composer, on the fast track towards a career as a traveling musician. During his imprisonment from 1942 to 1945 he became a supporter for other musicians held in Theresienstadt. "He simply motivated the other artists, musicians and writers to continue on and not to think about their situation," Hope said. "So I think that for me this fits extremely well to this examination of power and music."

Political context

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  Daniel Hope will explore music from Nazi concentration camps

Beethoven's beloved Ninth Symphony is a perfect example of a work that has been exploited to fit ideologies. Beethoven composed it to pay homage to the spirit of the Enlightenment. The song was later used as propaganda by the Third Reich and as the Iron Curtain began to crumble it became an anthem of freedom during German reunification. The Beethovenfest will present the complete cycle of all nine symphonies under the direction of Kurt Masur with the Orchestre National de France.

Deutsche Welle will once again sponsor a youth orchestra to travel to Germany for a week-long residency and performance of a specially commissioned musical work. This year will feature the Anton-Rubinstein Orchestra from the St. Petersburg Conservatory, which has produced numerous world-renown musicians over its 146 years in existence.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 07:52:53 PM


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BlJskC-TL._SS500_.jpg)



85 CD set for $125.99 @ AMAZON (USA)  (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Works-85CD-Box/dp/B000VBNRE4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1205465294&sr=1-1)




(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p9s8.gif)
A substantial portion of the material derives from the Universal Classics family of labels. Friedrich Gulda's thrilling, sometimes iconoclastic late-1960s Piano Sonata cycle appears alongside the pianist's less consistent though never uninteresting collaborations with Horst Stein and the Vienna Philharmonic in the five piano concertos. Alfred Brendel's early Vox Diabelli Variations is musically and sonically inferior to his more mature Philips remakes, while an entire disc of keyboard miscellany (including the rabble-rousing G minor Fantasia Op. 77) features lean-toned, gutsy playing from one Georg Friedrich Schenck.

You can do worse than the sometimes underplayed (Nos. 3, 5, 7, and 9) yet never less than solid 1974 Masur/Leipzig symphonies cycle, where Nos. 1, 2, 4, and 8 particularly attract attention. Not only do the classic mono Grumiaux/Haskil Violin Sonata encounters from Philips still sonically hold their own, but they also tower above each of that label's subsequent stereo versions. The Guarneri's 1987-92 Beethoven quartet cycle always impressed me for its vitality, sharply honed linear interplay, and warm engineering.

Was a Philips Missa solemnis a must? If so, I would have recommended Jochum's heartfelt, robustly engineered version over the later and cooler Colin Davis traversal here. Similarly, why the clean yet faceless Szeryng/Haitink Violin Concerto instead of the more involved Grumiaux/Galleria? Yet collectors who searched far and wide for Heinrich Schiff's 1998 Cello Sonatas now can bask in this great artist's extraordinary finesse and musical intelligence.

Should you prefer Beethoven piano trios on the flexible, roomy side, the Borodin Trio's 1984 Chandos cycle will suit your metabolism. Other chamber works both hit and miss, performance-wise.

--Jed Distler

(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11307)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 14, 2008, 03:50:26 PM
New York Times
March 14, 2008


Music Review | San Francisco Symphony
Beethoven's Eroica -- Delivering the Standards Along With the Scarce
By ALLAN KOZINN

Michael Tilson Thomas's visits to New York with the San Francisco Symphony are invariably refreshing, partly because the orchestra's playing is flexible and energetic but mainly because Mr. Thomas's programs usually step beyond the standard canon. Still, major orchestras deserve (and generally demand) to be measured against the competition in the core repertory as well. So in his concerts at Carnegie Hall on Tuesday and Wednesday, Mr. Thomas led his San Franciscans in meticulously balanced programs, with war horses like Beethoven's "Eroica" Symphony and Strauss's "Four Last Songs" offset by worthy rarities like William Schuman's Violin Concerto and Samuel Barber's "Andromache's Farewell."

The trick in playing a war horse is to make it sound as if it were not one without sacrificing the grandeur that won the work its status. That's having it both ways, and it's not easily done. Mr. Thomas's solution in the "Eroica" on Tuesday was to reduce the orchestra somewhat (though not quite to the chamber proportions he used in his Beethoven recordings of the 1980s) and to keep the tempos brisk, even breathless, everywhere but in the Marcia funebre. The work's two opening chords had hardly any space between them, and given the tempo of the opening section, it was hard not to think of them as a starter's gun rather than cannon blasts.

That is not to say that Mr. Thomas's tempos weren't effective. They put Beethoven's off-kilter accenting in a new light, and given the clean, focused and sometimes earthy performance, it was hard not to admire the virtuosity involved.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 14, 2008, 04:14:20 PM
Dm,
Really like what you have been doing with this Beethoven thread.  I do not subscribe to any classical music magazines and the articles you post fill this void nicely, so thank you for digging all of these articles up.  Ever consider also starting a Mozart thread like this?  I, for one, would read it. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 15, 2008, 06:14:03 AM
Quote from: Bill in the Rockies on March 14, 2008, 04:14:20 PM
Ever consider also starting a Mozart thread like this?  I, for one, would read it. 


The Mozart thread is reserved for Iago ! ! !
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 15, 2008, 06:27:50 AM
Quote from: Dm on March 15, 2008, 06:14:03 AM

The Mozart thread is reserved for Iago ! ! !

Why did that conjure up the image of Titanic and ice?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 15, 2008, 08:41:14 AM
Quote from: Bill in the Rockies on March 15, 2008, 06:27:50 AM
Why did that conjure up the image of Titanic and ice?

Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: not edward on March 15, 2008, 09:05:43 AM
Quote from: Dm on March 15, 2008, 08:41:14 AM
Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)
And in this universe, perhaps Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner are good actors.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 15, 2008, 11:57:42 AM
Quote from: Dm on March 15, 2008, 08:41:14 AM
Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)

Post of the year....easily.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 15, 2008, 01:53:48 PM
Quote from: Bill in the Rockies on March 15, 2008, 11:57:42 AM
Post of the year....easily.



I'll start an Andrew Lloyd Webber thread. Wheeee!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 16, 2008, 08:49:40 AM
...and I'll start a Star Trek thread.











not.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2008, 09:28:35 AM
Quote from: Dm on March 15, 2008, 08:41:14 AM
Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)

"Wagner is an overrated buffoon - Discuss"

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonic / Schmidt-Isserstedt - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 16, 2008, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2008, 09:28:35 AM
"Wagner [the man] is an overrated buffoon - Discuss"

But what about Wagner's music?

(((BTW, in this parallel universe, you actually enjoy and embrace Wagner's music to such a degree that you're willing to start a thread on the topic ......... maybe we didn't make this clear   :D  :D  :D)))
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2008, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: Dm on March 16, 2008, 10:47:59 AM
But what about Wagner's music?

(((BTW, in this parallel universe, you actually enjoy and embrace Wagner's music to such a degree that you're willing to start a thread on the topic ......... maybe we didn't make this clear   :D  :D  :D)))

Unless Gurn is making Shatner say the line in an over-acted/shocked manner....then it works. Would need a question mark at the end though. ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 16, 2008, 11:19:31 AM
Quote from: Bill in the Rockies on March 16, 2008, 10:56:48 AM
Unless Gurn is making Shatner say the line in an over-acted/shocked manner....then it works. Would need a question mark at the end though. ;D

I was looking for a question mark ....... and didn't see one ........ Perhaps an oversight on Gurn's part  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 16, 2008, 12:02:04 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2008, 09:28:35 AM
"Wagner is an overrated buffoon - Discuss"

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonic / Schmidt-Isserstedt - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile



Richard...Wag-ner...over....RAted...buf-OON........QUES-tions?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 22, 2008, 03:43:33 AM
March 22, 2008
New York Times Music Review
Attracting Audiences With Intricacy
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/22/arts/pierre190.jpg)

When the brilliant French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard signed a solo recording contract with Deutsche Grammophon last year, the first project he proposed was a complete account of Bach's "Art of Fugue." This rigorous work, which preoccupied its composer in his final years, explores every dimension of the contrapuntal technique in a set of 14 fugues (the last left incomplete) and four canons. Bach adapted the subjects for each piece from the same elemental theme. "The Art of Fugue" would hardly seem popular mainstream repertory.

Yet Mr. Aimard's producers at Deutsche Grammophon were smart to trust the instincts of this intellectually probing artist. Improbably, on the day of its release, March 11, his "Art of Fugue" recording went to the top of the classical music charts of both Billboard and iTunes. It was featured on the iTunes home page, along with Snoop Dogg and U2. What better proof that the availability of classical music on the Internet is attracting curious new listeners?

On Thursday night Mr. Aimard opened his Carnegie Hall recital with the first 11 pieces from "The Art of Fugue" (Contrapuncti I through XI, Bach called them, using an antique term for fugue): nearly 50 minutes of complex polyphonic music. After intermission Mr. Aimard played two formidable works that also explore polyphonic technique: Schoenberg's Five Pieces (Op. 23) and Beethoven's late-period Sonata No. 31 in A flat. In yet another encouraging sign for classical music, this brainy program attracted a large, attentive and enthusiastic audience.

In the liner notes for his recording, Mr. Aimard is quoted as saying that "The Art of Fugue" was long taken to be "the height of abstraction." Indeed, Bach notated the individual voices of the fugues on separate staffs, leaving no indication of the instrument (or instruments) for which he intended them. For a pianist, projecting the awkwardly intricate voices of the fugues with clarity requires a subtle kind of virtuosity.

A listener can try to follow the ingenious ways Bach takes the somber original theme and reinvents it, transforms it, gives it a dotted-note rhythmic twist, uses it as a starting point to evoke a filigreed French Baroque dance in the form of a fugue, and so on. But as played by Mr. Aimard with such lovely shadings, textural clarity, rhythmic integrity and calm authority, the music had a severe and wondrous beauty.

As he noted in comments to the audience, the last of the fugues, thick with chromatic harmony, point to Schoenberg's atonal Five Pieces, completed in 1923. The concluding piece, an impressionistic evocation of a Viennese waltz, is the first official 12-tone work Schoenberg wrote. But while projecting the pungently atonal language of the music, Mr. Aimard also conveyed its rich textures and colorings.

Coming after the Bach and the Schoenberg, the Beethoven sonata, in which a stately opening theme is cushioned by milky arpeggios and shimmering runs, sounded almost as lush as Ravel. In a nod to Bach, this work culminates in an exhilarating fugue.

Context is everything. For his first encore, Mr. Aimard played Elliott Carter's "Caténaires," from 2006, and for all its complexity, this onrushing, virtuosic roller coaster of a piece came across like an audience-wowing toccata. For symmetry, Mr. Aimard's final encore was Contrapunctus XII of "The Art of Fugue," Bach's homage to the spare polyphonic writing of Renaissance masters.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 22, 2008, 05:39:47 PM


Beethoven lands in Vancouver, via Germany
For this production of Fidelio, director Dejan Miladinovic moves the opera from 19th-century Spain to the era of the Berlin Wall
MARSHA LEDERMAN

March 22, 2008

VANCOUVER -- For fans of theatre and opera who have sat through one too many modern-day Macbeths that didn't quite translate, one too many contemporary Carmens that didn't ring true, the concept of setting Beethoven's only opera, Fidelio, during the fall of the Berlin Wall might not be enticing.

But the Vancouver Opera production of Fidelio, opening tonight at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre, should not be mistaken as one thrown together with a modern-day twist simply to fill seats. Director Dejan Miladinovic knows firsthand the challenges of creating art in the shadow of political oppression, and the decision to relocate Fidelio from a prison in Spain to a Stasi jail in East Berlin came after long deliberation.

Miladinovic, 59, grew up in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). The son of a mezzo-soprano mother and a conductor father, he was born into the opera - quite literally, with his mother going into labour as she waited backstage while his father conducted a rehearsal of Aida. He was also born into political turmoil in post-Second World War Yugoslavia. But as an adult, when he watched the televised pictures of the Berlin Wall coming down, he believed his life, his country and his own opportunities for artistic creativity were about to change. It was a huge moment in his life.

"That's why I'm doing this," Miladinovic says, referring to the decision to set the opera in November, 1989, as the Berlin Wall fell.

[CLICK HERE FOR FULL ARTICLE ! ! !]   :D  :D  :D   
(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080322.FIDELIO22/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Music/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 22, 2008, 08:31:38 PM
Quote from: Dm on March 22, 2008, 03:43:33 AM
March 22, 2008
New York Times Music Review
Attracting Audiences With Intricacy
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/22/arts/pierre190.jpg)

When the brilliant French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard signed a solo recording contract with Deutsche Grammophon last year, the first project he proposed was a complete account of Bach's "Art of Fugue." This rigorous work, which preoccupied its composer in his final years, explores every dimension of the contrapuntal technique in a set of 14 fugues (the last left incomplete) and four canons. Bach adapted the subjects for each piece from the same elemental theme. "The Art of Fugue" would hardly seem popular mainstream repertory.

Yet Mr. Aimard's producers at Deutsche Grammophon were smart to trust the instincts of this intellectually probing artist. Improbably, on the day of its release, March 11, his "Art of Fugue" recording went to the top of the classical music charts of both Billboard and iTunes. It was featured on the iTunes home page, along with Snoop Dogg and U2. What better proof that the availability of classical music on the Internet is attracting curious new listeners?

On Thursday night Mr. Aimard opened his Carnegie Hall recital with the first 11 pieces from "The Art of Fugue" (Contrapuncti I through XI, Bach called them, using an antique term for fugue): nearly 50 minutes of complex polyphonic music. After intermission Mr. Aimard played two formidable works that also explore polyphonic technique: Schoenberg's Five Pieces (Op. 23) and Beethoven's late-period Sonata No. 31 in A flat. In yet another encouraging sign for classical music, this brainy program attracted a large, attentive and enthusiastic audience.

In the liner notes for his recording, Mr. Aimard is quoted as saying that "The Art of Fugue" was long taken to be "the height of abstraction." Indeed, Bach notated the individual voices of the fugues on separate staffs, leaving no indication of the instrument (or instruments) for which he intended them. For a pianist, projecting the awkwardly intricate voices of the fugues with clarity requires a subtle kind of virtuosity.

A listener can try to follow the ingenious ways Bach takes the somber original theme and reinvents it, transforms it, gives it a dotted-note rhythmic twist, uses it as a starting point to evoke a filigreed French Baroque dance in the form of a fugue, and so on. But as played by Mr. Aimard with such lovely shadings, textural clarity, rhythmic integrity and calm authority, the music had a severe and wondrous beauty.

As he noted in comments to the audience, the last of the fugues, thick with chromatic harmony, point to Schoenberg's atonal Five Pieces, completed in 1923. The concluding piece, an impressionistic evocation of a Viennese waltz, is the first official 12-tone work Schoenberg wrote. But while projecting the pungently atonal language of the music, Mr. Aimard also conveyed its rich textures and colorings.

Coming after the Bach and the Schoenberg, the Beethoven sonata, in which a stately opening theme is cushioned by milky arpeggios and shimmering runs, sounded almost as lush as Ravel. In a nod to Bach, this work culminates in an exhilarating fugue.

Context is everything. For his first encore, Mr. Aimard played Elliott Carter's "Caténaires," from 2006, and for all its complexity, this onrushing, virtuosic roller coaster of a piece came across like an audience-wowing toccata. For symmetry, Mr. Aimard's final encore was Contrapunctus XII of "The Art of Fugue," Bach's homage to the spare polyphonic writing of Renaissance masters.


I wonder how much LvB Mr. Aimard will record for DG?  Another great article Dm.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 26, 2008, 07:40:39 PM
...If I may steal a moment from Dm to slip in a :o along with a euphoric wow!!!!! for the sixth and ninth symphonies from this Jaap Van Zweden Beethoven symphony cycle on Philips....

Van Zweden's Beethoven is HIP influenced as far as overall approach though performed on modern instruments. Tempos are fresh, lively, and buoyant, though minus anything that approaches the furious. Textures are crystal clear and warm, with sweeping gestures full of felicities streamed our way. 

This is 'lights spectacular' Beethoven with every phrase aglow and every bar crackling. So good, in fact, it's as if the music were freshly minted.

Haven't gotten around to the rest of the cycle yet but if it keeps this up I've got my new favorite Beethoven cycle.



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510-G0CxAlL._SS500_.jpg)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 27, 2008, 04:25:05 AM
Quote from: donwyn on March 26, 2008, 07:40:39 PM
...If I may steal a moment from Dm to slip in a :o along with a euphoric wow!!!!! for the sixth and ninth symphonies from this Jaap Van Zweden Beethoven symphony cycle on Philips....

Van Zweden's Beethoven is HIP influenced as far as overall approach though performed on modern instruments. Tempos are fresh, lively, and buoyant, though minus anything that approaches the furious. Textures are crystal clear and warm, with sweeping gestures full of felicities streamed our way. 

This is 'lights spectacular' Beethoven with every phrase aglow and every bar crackling. So good, in fact, it's as if the music were freshly minted.

Haven't gotten around to the rest of the cycle yet but if it keeps this up I've got my new favorite Beethoven cycle.



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510-G0CxAlL._SS500_.jpg)

Awesome writeup ......... U da man!  Please share your final thoughts once you've heard the full batch ........  0:)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 27, 2008, 04:27:08 AM
From March 28th to April 7th, the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra will celebrate the life of Ludwig van Beethoven  :D  (http://www.huliq.com/54863/vancouver-orchestra-maestro-tovey-present-beethoven-festival)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 27, 2008, 11:01:35 AM
Quote from: James on March 27, 2008, 09:20:30 AM
Glenn Gould says some great things about Beethoven.  :-*
http://www.youtube.com/v/cSdFeFv09H8


Paraphrase: "The banality of the (Beethoven) Violin Concerto" Hilarious. This I rank with the hilarious comments he made on Mozart being a "poor composer". He was smoking something really good (or bad, I should say).

Kind of like Glenn Gould's attempt at a publicity stunt, these comments can't be taken seriously, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 27, 2008, 06:36:31 PM
Quote from: Dm on March 27, 2008, 04:25:05 AM
Awesome writeup ......... U da man!  Please share your final thoughts once you've heard the full batch ........  0:)



Sure will, Dm! And thanks! :)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Guido on March 31, 2008, 06:08:45 AM
Thought this was a rather poor article on Wkipedia, regarding the late quartets, considering their importance. I'm sure people here know enough and care enough to change this!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets_Nos._12_-_16_and_Grosse_Fuge%2C_Opus_127%2C_130_-_135_%28Beethoven%29
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 02, 2008, 05:56:08 AM
Music Review from New York Times


April 1, 2008
Music Review
Beethoven With Period Flavor and a Steely Edge
By STEVE SMITH

Does the world need any more Beethoven recordings? That question has been raised time and again to indicate the folly of companies that continue to record his works. Our digitized Toscaninis, Szells and Karajans, after all, should last a lifetime. But in the '90s recordings by period-instrument ensembles provided new insight into how revolutionary Beethoven's music might have sounded in his day. Lately, conductors like Osmo Vanska and Paavo Jarvi have been applying lessons learned from those performances to important discs made with modern orchestras.

Similarly, the charismatic Danish conductor Thomas Dausgaard is recording Beethoven's complete orchestral works with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra, with nine volumes now available on Simax, a Norwegian label. Those discs are expensive and hard to find here (though iTunes sells each volume for $9.99). On Sunday evening Mr. Dausgaard and his 37-member band offered a sample of what most of us have been missing with an all-Beethoven program at the Rose Theater, presented by the Great Performers series of Lincoln Center.


Apart from natural trumpets and squat timpani with hand-cranked tuning mechanisms, the Swedish Chamber Orchestra plays on modern instruments. The ensemble approaches Beethoven with the reduced forces, limited vibrato and driven tempos favored by proponents of historically informed performance, in the current jargon.  But the orchestra brings to this music a textural clarity and steely edge unattainable by most period-instrument groups. And in Mr. Dausgaard it has a conductor who molds its performances for maximum impact. In the "Coriolan" Overture, which opened the concert, the ensemble's playing crackled with fierce electricity and dramatic urgency.

Beethoven's debt to Mozart is evident in the Piano Concerto No. 1, a point not missed by Mr. Dausgaard or his soloist, Piotr Anderszewski, a stylish, idiosyncratic young Polish-Hungarian pianist. Mr. Anderszewski's playing had a tasteful elasticity, and a genial sparkle well matched by his collaborators. But Mr. Dausgaard and Mr. Anderszewski also underscored the peppery jolts and unsettling dissonances that set Beethoven apart from his model. Mr. Dausgaard's flair for drama was especially keen in the Symphony No. 7. In the first movement he lingered ever so slightly in the transition between the slow introduction and the Vivace section, rightly emphasizing its strangeness. The Presto had a saucy bite, and the Finale was a dizzying flurry.  The orchestra provided two encores: Sibelius's "Valse Triste," stretched and squished like Silly Putty, and Hugo Alfven's rustically clucking "Vallflickans Dans."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: FideLeo on April 03, 2008, 12:54:17 AM
Quote from: Dm on April 02, 2008, 05:56:08 AM
Music Review from New York Times




Apart from natural trumpets and squat timpani with hand-cranked tuning mechanisms, the Swedish Chamber Orchestra plays on modern instruments. The ensemble approaches Beethoven with the reduced forces, limited vibrato and driven tempos favored by proponents of historically informed performance, in the current jargon.  But the orchestra brings to this music a textural clarity and steely edge unattainable by most period-instrument groups. And in Mr. Dausgaard it has a conductor who molds its performances for maximum impact.


Maximal impact?  I have Daugsand's Beethoven 7 recording on Simax and found it suffering from a lack of dynamism... To me his modified HIP style looked good in description but fell flat in actual listening experience and it certainly does not have the colour palette of a real period instrument orchestra. (Try Bruggen? Hogwood?)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lisa needs braces on April 04, 2008, 06:23:54 PM
Does anyone else find the Choral symphony creepy and bone chilling?  :o
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 05, 2008, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: -abe- on April 04, 2008, 06:23:54 PM
Does anyone else find the Choral symphony creepy and bone chilling?  :o

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but "creepy and bone chilling" are not the first words that immediately spring to mind upon listening to LvB's Choral Symphony .......

Which recording were you listening to?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 05, 2008, 08:03:44 AM
New York Times

April 5, 2008
Music Review | New York Philharmonic
Beethoven Sets the Stage for Gloomy Hues of War
By BERNARD HOLLAND

Vaughan Williams's Fourth Symphony always comes as a surprise. The image of British music's pastoral (or is it pasteurized?) scene turns ugly. Don't look for any village greens or shepherds singing. The Fourth, as played by Colin Davis and the New York Philharmonic at Avery Fisher Hall on Thursday, is angry, bleak and sardonic, a worthy precursor to Shostakovich in his most desperate hours.

If it were not for this particular piece, Vaughan Williams and his music might fit that old conceit about pet owners and their pets looking alike. Just as Ravel, to take another example, was small, dignified and elegant, if slightly overdressed, Vaughan Williams, from his pictures at least, looks overweight, calm and slow-moving. The eye might infer a subdued but generous soul; it does not seem desperate.

Some people attribute the Fourth Symphony's bad mood to the political environment, but this was only 1934, and Hitler had barely gotten started. Maybe it was the world economic depression in full swing, with music being used as a Dow Jones-like indicator of disappointment and anxiety. At any rate, the Fourth is on a war footing. The first movement is a battle zone; the second a wrecked and empty landscape; the third a grim march.

The Philharmonic came alive for the performance, with a fierce unanimity in rapid string passages and great subtlety from winds and brass. Mr. Davis, a regular visitor who does this orchestra a lot of good, is also a patriot, and rarely leaves home without some kind of British music under his arm.

The first half of the program was Beethoven: the second "Leonore" Overture and the Fourth Piano Concerto with Richard Goode. If the "Leonore" performance sounded blunt and businesslike, tough but honest may be a fair appraisal of the piece. Hearts began to melt in the concerto accompaniments, written with the uncharacteristic softness and amiability that sometimes came over Beethoven's soul.

Among Mr. Goode's virtues was a willingness to toy with several tempos while giving the impression that only one was in play. The first movement in particular was a study in surge and subsidence, and Mr. Davis, who has been bird-dogging soloists for a very long time, was never left behind.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lisa needs braces on April 05, 2008, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: Dm on April 05, 2008, 08:02:47 AM
Perhaps I'm alone in this, but "creepy and bone chilling" are not the first words that immediately spring to mind upon listening to LvB's Choral Symphony .......

Which recording were you listening to?
I have three well regarded recordings, and there is something positively creepy about this symphony, especially the first two movements.  :-*
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2008, 05:13:21 PM
While I probably wouldn't use the same adjectives, I do understand what you mean. Perhaps it is the hunting around for a tonal center, the suspense of not knowing what key you are in precisely, which can affect you even if you aren't really a key seeking person, and bother you quite a bit if you are!  Not sure the 2nd movement does that so much, but the 1st movement? Yes, it's a wonderful part of the tapestry. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Ronald Brautigam - Mozart Vol.2 - K 284 Sonata #6 in D 3rd mvmt - Theme and Variations
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on April 05, 2008, 05:16:44 PM
 I suppose the 4th movement of the Furtwangler does have a creepy intensity at times.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 10, 2008, 03:22:06 PM

From The Times
April 11, 2008

Nigel Kennedy: Beethoven/Mozart
Geoff Brown


The weather might be bonkers, but at least this spring we have Nigel Kennedy. A few weeks back, this mature bovver boy, 51 at the last count, had a Festival Hall audience agog over his performance of the Elgar violin concerto. And all because of his playing's five-star splendour, not his personal antics. Now, on CD, jaws can drop a second time over this splendid account of a greater concerto still: Beethoven's.

On violin tone alone, Kennedy's account with his Polish Chamber Orchestra is exceptional. Vibrato is cut right back; throughout he aims for a clean line, not some rhapsodic meander. The epic first movement unfolds with an unusually firm sense of purpose; every detail of attack, stress and phrasing is freshly considered by soloist and orchestra (directed by Kennedy when his hands are free). In the introduction, note the crisp articulation of the orchestra's four repeated notes; Kennedy makes those notes the work's motto.

The peak is climbed in the slow movement. The tempo's expansive spread may blur the structure slightly, but when Nigel's trilling like an angel and offering sensational pianissimos I stand in awe. Be careful when listening to this: you may forget to breathe.  For the finale, Kennedy starts by veiling his tone; then up he leaps, all silvery sparkle. Beautiful playing throughout, but no preening or mincing: this is a performance to revisit time and again.    (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article3721930.ece)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 14, 2008, 04:34:29 PM


'I became obsessed with Beethoven's obsession'

'Smitten' by the 'Diabelli Variations,' Moisés Kaufman 'knew I wanted to write a play' (Guess what opens in La Jolla tonight?)
By Valerie Scher
UNION-TRIBUNE CLASSICAL MUSIC CRITIC

April 13, 2008
HOWARD LIPIN / Union-Tribune

After attending a play one night, the prominent playwright-director Moisés Kaufman visited a Manhattan record store, looking for a CD to add to his extensive classical music collection. The clerk suggested Beethoven's "Diabelli Variations," a masterwork Kaufman knew little about. So the clerk explained how Beethoven became obsessed with an insignificant little waltz by the music publisher Anton Diabelli. And after initially refusing to compose a variation, as Diabelli had requested, Beethoven changed his mind and composed what turned out to be one of the greatest sets of variations ever written.  "As soon as he told me the story, I was smitten," recalls Kaufman, who purchased Alfred Brendel's highly-regarded recording. "Why did Beethoven write the variations? That's the question that gnawed at me. I knew I wanted to write a play."

The result is "33 Variations," which launches its first West Coast engagement tonight at La Jolla Playhouse. Blending mystery and musicology, "Variations" premiered last year at the Arena Stage in Washington, D.C. It recently received the 2008 Harold and Mimi Steinberg/American Theatre Critics Association New Play Award, which included a $25,000 cash prize – the largest national playwriting award.

Kaufman is not alone in his fascination with Beethoven. Hershey Felder's "Beethoven, As I Knew Him" comes to the Old Globe next month and in June, the 2008 Mainly Mozart Festival opens with a program showcasing all five of the composer's piano concertos. The San Diego Symphony is also getting into the act, with a Beethoven Festival slated for next season.

"33 Variations" – which consists of 33 scenes – isn't meant to be a biography of the composer. Or an analysis of his score, which was completed in 1823.

Instead, it's a play with music. Pianist Diane Walsh will perform about two-thirds of the variations, with projections of Beethoven's manuscript serving as a backdrop.



(http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20080413-9999-1a13play.html)


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 04:06:43 AM
LvB's Fifth Symphony arranged for solo piano:

1st mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/yKrbvB6ITks

Performed by Frederic Chiu  (http://www.fredericchiu.com/Frederic%20Chiu%20Official%20Website/Biography_files/241630-R2-36A.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 04:07:03 AM
Pollini plays the Diabelli's variations by Beethoven


Fuga and last variation http://www.youtube.com/v/AMbyH8AyAGU
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 04:16:53 AM


New York Times

April 18, 2008
Music Review | Andras Schiff
Deconstructing Beethoven, One Piano Sonata at a Time
By ALLAN KOZINN

Andras Schiff is playing Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas at Carnegie Hall, and he's taking his time: his traversal began with two concerts in October and resumed on Wednesday night. After a fourth installment on Friday, the series picks up with four similarly spaced concerts next season. The exigencies of touring (for Mr. Schiff) and concert marketing (for Carnegie Hall) dictate their own logic, but it's a pity the concerts were not in closer succession. Mr. Schiff is presenting the works mostly in the order Beethoven composed them, rather than the order in which they were published (and consequently numbered).

If the point is to show Beethoven's development, spreading the concerts over two full seasons works against it. That said, Mr. Schiff hasn't adhered strictly to the chronology. His concert on Wednesday examined works composed between 1795 and 1800, and should therefore have included the "Pathétique" Sonata, composed in 1798. But the "Pathétique" closed Mr. Schiff's second concert, in October. As the evolution of Beethoven's style goes, that makes a difference, and in a lengthy interview in the program Mr. Schiff gave no reason for this displacement.  He began this time with the Opus 49 Sonatas, a pair of early works belatedly published in 1805 as Nos. 19 and 20. They appear as the 9th and 10th Sonatas in Mr. Schiff's reordering, and in that sequence they tell us a lot. Each work makes a sharp distinction between melody and accompaniment, in ways Beethoven's later works do not, a point Mr. Schiff emphasized in his cogent, vital readings by giving the innocently straightforward top lines a bright, ringing tone, and keeping the left-hand figuration subdued, if not quite muffled.

In the two Opus 14 Sonatas (1798 and 1799), as in the "Pathétique" (Op. 13), theme, accompaniment and decorative figuration are woven inextricably into a single texture. The most striking quality of Mr. Schiff's playing here was its transparency: it gave you a fine-grain look at the intricacy of Beethoven's structures but kept the bigger picture in crystalline focus. He made some unusual tempo choices. The Allegretto of the E major Sonata seemed peculiarly slow. But mostly Mr. Schiff adopted the brisk, driven tempos and sharp articulation favored by Beethoven players (and listeners) these days. After the intermission Mr. Schiff gave a luminous account of the Sonata No. 11 in B flat (Op. 22), with a magnificently ruminative, songlike slow movement at its heart. As an encore, he played Bach's Partita in B flat (BWV 825) complete.

(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/arts/music/18Schi.html?ref=arts)




By the Book


By FRED KIRSHNIT
April 18, 2008


Hungarian pianist András Schiff was back at Carnegie Hall on Wednesday evening, continuing his three-year series presenting the 32 sonatas of Ludwig van Beethoven. (http://www2.nysun.com/article/74958)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 04:17:53 AM


Beethoven: Symphony No 7; Music by Weber, Rossini and Wilms, Budapest Festival Orch/ Fischer

(http://image.guardian.co.uk/stars/guardian5.gif)

Tim Ashley
Friday April 18, 2008
The Guardian


"What would it have been like to hear Beethoven's Seventh Symphony at the first performance?" Iván Fischer asks in a sleeve note. His aim, in this instance, is not to recreate the 1813 concert that included the symphony's premiere, but to emphasise its revolutionary nature by placing it alongside less extreme music written contemporaneously. In some respects, he is overcalculating in making his case. The additional pieces - the adagio from Weber's Clarinet Concerto, the overture to Rossini's opera L'Italiana in Algeri and the banal finale of the Fourth Symphony by the obscure Johann Wilhelm Wilms - are extracts rather than complete works, the point being that Beethoven exploits their stylistic traits more radically in the Symphony itself. As a totality, the disc is consequently bitty, but the performance of the Seventh ranks, without question, among the greatest ever recorded. With the Budapest Festival Orchestra playing as if their lives depended on it, it's superbly articulated, thrillingly elated and emotionally exhausting. Weber, on first hearing the work, wondered whether its composer was insane, and for once you understand why. Utterly compelling.   (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2274138,00.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2008, 04:48:45 AM
Dmitri, I appreciate your Beethoven 'cuttings' very much!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2008, 05:26:03 AM
Quote from: Dm on April 18, 2008, 04:17:53 AM
but the performance of the Seventh ranks, without question, among the greatest ever recorded. With the Budapest Festival Orchestra playing as if their lives depended on it, it's superbly articulated, thrillingly elated and emotionally exhausting. Weber, on first hearing the work, wondered whether its composer was insane, and for once you understand why. Utterly compelling.

I always love this "without question" stuff, as if nobody should have the temerity to disagree, and if you do, you're proving yourself lacking in taste or discernment. I've heard some pretty wretched performances (not to mention compositions) that "reviewers" have told me are "without question among the greatest."  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 18, 2008, 05:56:02 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on April 18, 2008, 05:26:03 AM
I always love this "without question" stuff, as if nobody should have the temerity to disagree, and if you do, you're proving yourself lacking in taste or discernment. I've heard some pretty wretched performances (not to mention compositions) that "reviewers" have told me are "without question among the greatest."  :D

The second movement of the 7th is so me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2008, 05:11:43 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on April 18, 2008, 05:56:02 AM
The second movement of the 7th is so me.

And the 1st, 3rd, and 4th besides. But those are truly without question among the greatest.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Kullervo on April 18, 2008, 05:18:57 PM
The intro to the 1st movement never fails to make me take a deep breath.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 18, 2008, 05:29:01 PM
Quote from: Dm on April 18, 2008, 04:17:53 AM
His aim, in this instance, is not to recreate the 1813 concert that included the symphony's premiere, but to emphasise its revolutionary nature by placing it alongside less extreme music written contemporaneously.

What an idiotic program concept for a disc. As if we didn't alrready know that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 20, 2008, 05:57:54 AM
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No 1 & 2 / Bronfman, Zinman

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/97/973026.jpg)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/p10s10.gif)

The period-instrument movement has accomplished some wonderful things, not least of which has been the improvement of performances that aren't on period instruments. *** while David Zinman's Beethoven symphony cycle with these forces was underwhelming, his concertos have been just the opposite. The same qualities of lightness, elegance, and speed that underplayed the symphonic drama of those works permit a splendidly integrated, witty, and emotionally affecting interplay between solo and orchestra. This is true not just of the slow movements, whose lyricism never turns sweaty, but also the finales, where the catchy syncopated rhythms and quicksilver phrasing from both Bronfman and Zinman make these two "learning works" a delight--nowhere more so than in the early Second concerto (which predates the First). Seldom has this work's first movement sounded freer and shapelier, less like Mozart on steroids. These performances are every bit as winning as those on the companion disc of Concertos Nos. 4 and 5, and I can hardly wait to hear No. 3. Yes, they are "of a type", one fully in keeping with today's tastes and theories about how this music should sound--but of that type they stand with the best. Terrific sound too.

--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 20, 2008, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Dm on April 20, 2008, 05:57:54 AM
--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com

Thanks for making that so big and red, like a warning label. So I didn't waste my time reading that review.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on April 20, 2008, 09:43:36 AM
Quote from: M forever on April 20, 2008, 09:24:39 AM
Thanks for making that so big and red, like a warning label. So I didn't waste my time reading that review.




Ditto. Big Dave "yay" (translated "yawn").
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 21, 2008, 06:33:49 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans:

This ($14.95): (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/7b/5b/5d3ec6da8da0a302b1152110.L.jpg)

Is being re-released as this ($27.95): (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2107205.jpg)

This is a HIP performance on fortepiano ........... Phone the neighbors and wake the kids folks .......

Customer Reviews can be found by clicking HERE  (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concertos-Norrington-Classical-Players/dp/B000090WCD)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 21, 2008, 09:36:49 AM


Sibelius: Pelléas and Mélisande,Violin Concerto; Beethoven: Symphony No.6 'Pastorale'
Gidon Kremer, Russian National Orchestra/Mikhail Pletnev
Festpielhaus Baden-Baden, 21 April 2008

(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/concerts/baden-rno-pletnev.jpg)

It would take the multilingual erudition as a master of musical aesthetics of a Gidon Kremer or a Mikhail Pletnev, turning his visions into magic performances as a virtuoso and conductor, adequately to find words to describe this concert. These two stars, so unwilling to play the role of stars, joined forces to present Sibelius at his most inward-looking and Beethoven's 'Pastorale' with a new glow of gentle humanity. This humble reviewer can only bow in gratitude for such an unforgettable experience.

The full orchestral suite Pelléas and Mélisande by Sibelius is rarely included in the repertory of great orchestras. A pity, because it contains the essence of the brooding melancholy of this composer, coupled with meltingly romantic themes, without being burdened with his often ponderous longeurs. Its brilliant orchestration allowed all the principals of the Russian National Orchestra to demonstrate a delicacy and deep emotional involvement, without being egged on by a meddling Kapellmeister.

Indeed, the work of Mikhail Pletnev - who founded this orchestra almost 20 years ago without any help from the Soviet government at that time still wallowing in its Breshnevian stupour - all seems to get done before the performances. His vision, his radical removal of the barnacles attached by tradition to the conventional interpretations of his large repertoire, is firmly implanted on every member of his orchestra. Because the orchestra is exclusively privately funded and assisted by foundations located in the USA and the UK, it employs in all sections the finest talents now available in Russia, without interference from vested interests of the old guard. Perhaps as many as two thirds of the members are in their twenties or early thirties and Pletnev needs not cajole or drive them by ostentatious body language to produce a superbly homogenous sound: supple and eloquent in its winds, robust and brazen in its brass sections, and virtuosic throughout its strings. Their two principal cellists are amongst the few more mature members, one of them looking remarkably like a formally dressed Misha Maisky; their playing, beautifully co-ordinated and constantly fully engaged, was a pleasure to watch. Even their timpanist rose somtimes in ferocious temper or subtly caressed his instruments. I cannot recall a more beautifully performed horn solo in the dangerously exposed allegro of the 'Pastorale' - only one of many memorable solos from all sections.

In all three works on the programme, there were many opportunities to show how a full-blown orchestral sound can be both majestic and warmly burnished, or how the musicians were able subtely to tiptoe their way through the intricate scoring of the the allegro of the 'Pastorale'. Pletnev is well known to eschew all star-like superficialities. His elbows are mostly kept near his body and he conducts with minute flicks of his baton, just turning to the sections he wants to be heard more prominently. In solo passages, or even in fast tutti sections, he often stops using his baton altogether and allows complete freedom to the orchestra. In accompanying Gidon Kremer in Sibelius's Violin Concerto, he totally accommodated Kremer's intimate vision and scaled down the orchestral outburts to match the soloist's deeply private conception of the piece.

I happen to have played as a student in the orchestra accompanying a brave and very talented masterclass student of Jeno Hubay daring to play the Sibelius, a mere twenty years after it was first performed and long before Heifetz established the yardsticks by which peformances are still measured. In those years, the technical difficulties could be mastered only by very few performers and at speeds that by today's standards seem sluggish. Even Ferenc Vecsey, the dedicatee of the concerto, whose career as the leading virtuoso of the age was cut short by his early death, could not adequately cope with the extraodinary technical demands of the work.

For Kremer, and for so many of the superb virtuosos of our age, technical difficulties do not seem to matter any longer. Yet Kremer brings to this work an almost philosophical detachment, away from the superficial glories of the concerto he makes it a vehicle of an intimate confession, hardly allowed to be shared by an audience. The very first bars are played with an ethereal and melancholy gentleness that leaves its mark on the rest. In the last movement Kremer displayed a virtuosity that ennobled the mere fireworks of harmonic doublestops, acrobatic leaps, upbow crossstrings, spiccato runs - and all this at a bracingly pulsating tempo. At one point near then end, his E string broke under his strident bowing. Without a moment's hesitation, he picked up the violin of the player sitting just behind him, and continued to play the fiendish passages as if nothing had happened.

Beethoven's Sixth is perhaps the best loved of his symphonies, but in the course of 200 years it has become corseted into traditions which even great interpreters hesitate to ignore. Pletnev has the stature to do so. The very first twelve bars are phrased and played at speeds that are utterly new and, to me, were a revelation. We've all heard this work innumerable times and all interprations seem to have differed only in minute details, depending on the brilliance or lack of it of the performing orchestras. Pletnev challenged all this. His recent recordings of all the nine Beethoven symphonies with his orchestra are acknowledged by critics as opening our ears to entirely new aspects and motivations of these works. It was this diversity, this searching and finding completely new subtleties in phrasing, counterpoint and colours of orchestration, that made me sit up in wonderment and delight.  

I must be forgiven for perhaps being overenthusiastic about a mere orchestral concert. However, there was more in this for me than just a an enjoyable way of passing an evening. I learnt, towards the end of my own; musical life, that we must not take traditional interpretations for granted and when we put ourselves in the hands of masters like a Mikhail Pletnev or a Gidon Kremer, an entire new world can yet open in our jaded ears.
(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/concerts/baden-rno-pletnev-0408.shtml)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 21, 2008, 09:48:44 AM
Re Pletnev: I like this comment from an Amazon reviewer:

QuoteI agree with the first reviewer. One's reaction to this set can only be love it or hate it. I've yet to decide.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2008, 09:54:50 AM
Quote from: Dm on April 21, 2008, 06:33:49 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans:

This ($14.95): (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/7b/5b/5d3ec6da8da0a302b1152110.L.jpg)

Is being re-released as this ($27.95): (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2107205.jpg)

This is a HIP performance on fortepiano ........... Phone the neighbors and wake the kids folks .......

Customer Reviews can be found by clicking HERE  (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concertos-Norrington-Classical-Players/dp/B000090WCD)

Thanks, d, I had held up buying it because it was too inexpensive. I guess I can put it on my list now... ::)   :D

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 21, 2008, 09:59:36 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2008, 09:54:50 AM
Thanks, d, I had held up buying it because it was too inexpensive. I guess I can put it on my list now...

I'm still waiting for the price to go even higher. Why should I pay so little?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 21, 2008, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on April 21, 2008, 09:48:44 AM
Re Pletnev: I like this comment from an Amazon reviewer:

I know I love his work. 8)

Edit: And his pianism, too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2008, 11:36:35 AM
Quote from: Dm on April 21, 2008, 06:33:49 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans:
Is being re-released as this ($27.95): (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2107205.jpg)

€11.99 ($19) from JPC:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7246009?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist


Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 21, 2008, 12:29:57 PM
Quote from: Dm on April 21, 2008, 06:33:49 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans

I wouldn't call myself a Norrington "fan", but I have always found his contributions very interesting and often stimulating. Not this, though. This is pretty much like the cliche of HIP, somebody banging around on a wiry sounding keyboard without much musical character or value. If you want to hear these concertos played on "period" instruments, I would recommend listening to Robert Levine's recordings with the ORR/Gardiner - while I don't find Gardiner's recordings of the symphonies all that interesting, Levin is a fantastic pianist and a true expert of the classical style, and Gardiner provides good accompaniment to him here.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 22, 2008, 08:21:44 AM
Piano Trios - No. 5 in D, Op. 70/1, 'Ghost';No. 6 in E flat, Op. 70/2;No. 9 in B flat, WoO39
Florestan Trio(Susan Tomes pf,Anthony Marwood vn,Richard Lester vc)
Hyperion New CD     CDA67327 (60 minutes : DDD)

(http://www.gramophone.co.uk/cdcovers/034571173276.jpg)

Gramophone

A vital first instalment in the Florestan's urgent new cycle of Beethoven Piano Trios

Here's a recording that immediately, from the first, impetuous bars of Op 70 No 1, feels just right. In this movement the Florestan makes the long second repeat, but there's such a sense of momentum that no one could find it too extended or repetitious. Indeed, the reiterated chords that precede the lead-back reignite our concentration with their air of tense mystery. And when we reach this point for the second time, the G major harmony at the start of the coda has a wonderful, dense tranquillity. The famous 'Ghost' movement creates a powerful, chilling effect, with stark, senza vibrato string tone and the extraordinary writing in the piano's deep bass register exploited by Susan Tomes with superb control and sensitivity. Beethoven's thick, growling left-hand parts can be problematic, but Tomes always manages to produce a strong effect – fierce and abrupt in the second movement of Op 70 No2, rich and warm in the following Allegretto – without ever sounding overpowering or ugly.

The E flat Trio is something of a Cinderella work, but the Florestan performance helps us to see it as a major achievement of Beethoven's middle period. I love the way that, though they are a thoughtful, highly-controlled group, there's room for moments of the most intense expression, as when, in the opening Allegro, Anthony Marwood leads the upward sequence that starts the development to such a passionate climax. And the finale, one of Beethoven's most prodigiously inventive pieces, has in this performance a feeling of uninhibited enjoyment. The recorded sound and balance is up to Hyperion's usual high standard.
 
Duncan Druce
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 08:26:52 AM
Gramophone likes a recording from a British label. Imagine that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Don on April 22, 2008, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 08:26:52 AM
Gramophone likes a recording from a British label. Imagine that.

Fanfare Magazine also praised the recordings.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 08:42:56 AM
Quote from: Don on April 22, 2008, 08:42:11 AM
Fanfare Magazine also praised the recordings.

Well, that's okay then.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 09:03:33 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 08:26:52 AM
Gramophone likes a recording from a British label. Imagine that.

Hyperion isn't "a British label", though. It's among the British labels.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 09:04:53 AM
Quote from: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 09:03:33 AM
Hyperion isn't "a British label", though. It's among the British labels.

::)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 11:18:41 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 09:04:53 AM
::)

I mean to say, it's not ye olde random British label that's never published anything good...

There are a lot of very outstanding Hyperion discs around, so they do have a certain standard. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 11:22:11 AM
Quote from: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 11:18:41 AM
I mean to say, it's not ye olde random British label that's never published anything good...

There are a lot of very outstanding Hyperion discs around, so they do have a certain standard. :)

You are correct, but I wouldn't read Gramophone to find out which ones are good.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 11:34:44 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 11:22:11 AM
You are correct, but I wouldn't read Gramophone to find out which ones are good.

That is another story. ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 22, 2008, 12:48:38 PM
Quote from: Dm on April 21, 2008, 09:36:49 AM
I happen to have played as a student in the orchestra accompanying a brave and very talented masterclass student of Jeno Hubay daring to play the Sibelius, a mere twenty years after it was first performed

Huh? The violin concerto was premiered in 1903, the revised version in 1905. How old is that reviewer?


Quote from: Dm on April 21, 2008, 09:36:49 AM
Beethoven's Sixth is perhaps the best loved of his symphonies, but in the course of 200 years it has become corseted into traditions which even great interpreters hesitate to ignore. Pletnev has the stature to do so. The very first twelve bars are phrased and played at speeds that are utterly new and, to me, were a revelation. We've all heard this work innumerable times and all interprations seem to have differed only in minute details, depending on the brilliance or lack of it of the performing orchestras. Pletnev challenged all this. His recent recordings of all the nine Beethoven symphonies with his orchestra are acknowledged by critics as opening our ears to entirely new aspects and motivations of these works.

Complete nonsense. The stylistic spectrum of Beethoven interpretation is *vast*, there are so many different stylistic approaches to performing his symphonies in particular, and the whole "HIP" thing has started challenging all of the - very diverse - traditional schools of interpretation decades ago which has resulted in an even wider and more complex spectrum of performance styles. Since that reviewer is apparently over 100 years old, where has he been in the last 50 years? Or has he gone deaf 50 years ago? A very strange contribution - just like Pletnev's Beethoven recordings which aren't "challenging" - they are just random and nonsensical.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: not edward on April 22, 2008, 12:51:30 PM
Quote from: M forever on April 22, 2008, 12:48:38 PM
Huh? The violin concerto was premiered in 1903, the revised version in 1905. How old is that reviewer?
If you follow the link, he was born in 1913 and studied cello at the Franz Liszt Academy in Budapest.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 26, 2008, 08:44:58 AM

NYT, April 26, 2008, MUSIC REVIEW, Andsnes's Beethoven
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/arts/music/26leif.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 26, 2008, 08:46:59 AM
 Music DVD Review: Beethoven Symphony No. 9 and Concert in Honor of Pope Benedict XVI  (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/26/071253.php)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 26, 2008, 08:59:35 AM
I have that Karajan 9th (naturally ;D), and I can whole-heartedly second Mr. Bailey's enthusiasm. Though I admittedly found the sound to be rather more rough than he makes it sound like it is...

Still, it's probably the best Karajan Beethoven 9th on video, this one! :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 29, 2008, 05:31:34 PM
Sokolov / Diabelli

(audio excerpt only) http://www.youtube.com/v/doHezRZZTS0

"Sokolov is for many the greatest pianist alive today. ... Sokolov is a pianistic Dostoyevsky, his music-making vast in scope, visionary and revelatory, squeezing out every last drop of meaning."

—International Piano, Sept. 2006
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on April 29, 2008, 06:19:58 PM
That was great, thanks!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2008, 10:47:46 AM
 Music Review: Franz Liszt and the Beethoven Symphonies

(http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/05/03/122812.php)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2008, 10:48:45 AM

Symphony No. 9 in D minor Op. 125 arr. for two pianos by Franz Liszt
Leon McCawley, Ashley Wass (pianos) Naxos- 8.570466(CD)

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11629_coverpic.jpg)

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s9.gif)

"Highly recommended."

     --Jed Distler
(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11629)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2008, 03:37:06 AM
 Classical music reviews | A big, Brilliant Beethoven box set  (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2004396594_cdreviews07.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2008, 12:39:58 PM
Quote from: Dm on May 09, 2008, 03:37:06 AM


Classical music reviews | A big, Brilliant Beethoven box set
By Melinda Bargreen

Seattle Times music critic

* * *

In the "ups" category: the string quartets, those revered Beethoven works, performed by the always-excellent Guarneri Quartet; the terrific Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (led by Kurt Masur) for the symphonies; Henryk Szeryng and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (with Bernard Haitink) in the Violin Concerto; and welcome appearances and collaborations.

On the "downs" side: Pianist Friedrich Gulda does not make my heart beat faster in the choice piano sonatas and concertos (even with the Vienna Philharmonic backing him up in the latter). How anyone could make these fiery, colorful works sound matter-of-fact is a source of amazement (compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas). And some of those valuable historic recordings, like the Grumiaux/Haskil violin sonatas, are wonderful artistic statements but old enough that the remastered sound takes some getting used to.

But there's one final huge plus: You can buy the entire set on Amazon.com for around $126 (it's listed at $139.98). It's an incredible buy, one that will keep Beethoven fans happily engaged for a long time.

(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2004396594_cdreviews07.html)



One tiny quibble. The Guarneri Quartet may always be "great" but don't buy those Mozart's Haydn SQs box they put out. It may be mostly the recording (the strings sound like cheap Casio synths), but in particular the A quartet sounds pretty butchered.

Otherwise, thanks for this really interesting post, Dmitri!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 09, 2008, 02:54:31 PM
Quote from: Dm on May 09, 2008, 03:37:06 AM


Classical music reviews | A big, Brilliant Beethoven box set
By Melinda Bargreen

Seattle Times music critic

* * *



On the "downs" side: Pianist Friedrich Gulda does not make my heart beat faster in the choice piano sonatas and concertos (even with the Vienna Philharmonic backing him up in the latter). How anyone could make these fiery, colorful works sound matter-of-fact is a source of amazement (compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas). And some of those valuable historic recordings, like the Grumiaux/Haskil violin sonatas, are wonderful artistic statements but old enough that the remastered sound takes some getting used to.


(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2004396594_cdreviews07.html)
Hmm, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can tell this one came right out of petty parochialism. Gulda's crystal clear, lucid Beethoven is a cycle for the ages. Shame on the reviewer.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: marvinbrown on May 10, 2008, 08:51:06 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 09, 2008, 02:54:31 PM
Hmm, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can tell this one came right out of petty parochialism. Gulda's crystal clear, lucid Beethoven is a cycle for the ages. Shame on the reviewer.

  If you are referring to the sonatas I agree.  Gulda's recording on Brilliant is just that............ Brilliant!

  marvin
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on May 11, 2008, 06:22:24 AM
Quote from: marvinbrown on May 10, 2008, 08:51:06 AM
  If you are referring to the sonatas I agree.  Gulda's recording on Brilliant is just that............ Brilliant!

  marvin

Indeed, and obviously Melinda isn't.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: op.110 on May 19, 2008, 08:14:39 PM
Being a Beethoven post, I though I would add that Perahia's recording of The Emperor (Bernard Haitink and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestrais) is a marvelous recording; I just discovered this recording a couple of days ago. Nothing overdone, and the recording holds just the right amount of dynamic contrast, beauty, and power. Not an exciting recording of the piece (it's very straightforward), and he won't ever blow your mind away at any point in the recording, but then again, that's Perahia for you, and that's what makes the recording so unique and great.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 20, 2008, 04:04:00 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 09, 2008, 02:54:31 PM
Hmm, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can tell this one came right out of petty parochialism. Gulda's crystal clear, lucid Beethoven is a cycle for the ages. Shame on the reviewer.

But did you compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on June 22, 2008, 04:00:15 AM
Hammerklavier, Beethoven Sonata n. 29, by Brendel. (1/6)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hAd2rSV20&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on June 22, 2008, 04:00:40 AM
Wilhelm Kempff plays Beethoven's "Waldstein" sonata, mvt. 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9RCjXAO5e4
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on June 22, 2008, 06:08:02 AM
LvB PC 4

Paul Badura-Skoda Beethoven PC No.4 on Period Instruments (fortepiano) Conrad Graf 1820

mvt 1 1/2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXMhVYPpwBY&feature=related

mvt 1 2/2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vde6cUPMUu4

3/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTkblCgN6Pk&feature=related

4/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu8lNwOkfcM&feature=related

5/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHawFEXjow4&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2008, 08:14:26 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on May 20, 2008, 04:04:00 AM
But did you compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas?
I never like pulse-pounding in these works...I like the likes of Goode, Frank, Gulda. Everntually I will get to Sheppard and see what his "pulse-pounding" is all about.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 22, 2008, 12:07:57 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2008, 08:14:26 AM
I never like pulse-pounding in these works...I like the likes of Goode, Frank, Gulda. Everntually I will get to Sheppard and see what his "pulse-pounding" is all about.
He is "pulse-pounding" because he, like the critic who wrote that article for the Seattle Times, is from Seattle.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 15, 2008, 11:43:32 AM
Beethoven: The Consecration of the House overture -- Hungarian Philharmonic Orchestra; Zoltán Kocsis

http://www.youtube.com/v/y8ykmhb71gc

Once you get beyond the first two minutes, it's a damn good overture ..........
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 16, 2008, 04:08:30 AM
ARGERICH, CAPUCON BROS / Triple Concerto 3rd Mvt

finale 1/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/kmxjzBtVi_c

finale 2/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/aTwPUzhAZ20&feature=related

RENAUD CAPUCON (Violin)
GAUTIER CAPUCON (Cello)
MARTHA ARGERICH (Piano)
ALEXANDER RABINOVITCH-BARAKOVSKY (Conductor)
Flanders Symphony Orchestra
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: power on July 16, 2008, 08:40:51 AM
I have a question.  How does the Busch quartet compare with the Budapest quartet on late Beethoven?  I am quite familiar with the Budapest but have never heard the Busch.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on July 16, 2008, 09:27:40 AM
Quote from: power on July 16, 2008, 08:40:51 AM
I have a question.  How does the Busch quartet compare with the Budapest quartet on late Beethoven?  I am quite familiar with the Budapest but have never heard the Busch.

I believe the Busch Quartet are considered nigh-legendary!

I don't have their recently re-released Beethoven late quartets, but the Schubert quartets I do have from them are incredible; historic, in every sense of the word. I don't think you should hesitate, if you don't mind the equally "historic" sound. ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2008, 08:54:25 AM
Rudolf Serkin - Beethoven Sonata No. 30, Op. 109  

pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/v/MEeO8uULTKY

pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/v/QC8dobb986s

pt 3 http://www.youtube.com/v/ZYyW7trFLNo




Edited to place caption in purple ..........
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2008, 10:30:16 AM
LvB PC #5 Pollini / Abbado (1967)
3d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/dkjRyOz2SZ4&feature=related

2d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/FlZGJBFvd2g&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2008, 10:32:03 AM
LvB PC 4 Pollini / Abbado (2004)


finale http://www.youtube.com/v/Rs7gkD4Go6Q&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 21, 2008, 10:49:38 AM

Diabelli by Pollini

(fragment) http://www.youtube.com/v/AMbyH8AyAGU&feature=related

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 21, 2008, 10:50:40 AM
LvB PC #5 Michelangeli /Giulini

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-1DRsETJQ&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 22, 2008, 06:43:48 AM
To the extent that LvB was influenced by Mozart's D Minor piano concerto, it is helpful to consider performances of this d minor masterpiece.  Ergo ......

Comes now Gulda with the Munich Phil.

1/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/VtTqpqGIIYU

2/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/iF17mzCPq5A&feature=related

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 22, 2008, 06:45:13 AM
Argerich / Mzt d minor PC

1st mvt pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/v/3V9vFJMVtRc

1st mvt pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/v/HOQ6fsUbP4c&feature=related

2d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/o6H8sUogXqE&feature=related

3d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/u3iIAj0UHlE&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 30, 2008, 02:46:24 PM
Corolian Overture, Carlos Kleiber, Bayerisches Staatsorchester (1996)


http://www.youtube.com/v/TqyMx4I4uYU
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 09, 2008, 03:20:24 AM


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11787_coverpic.jpg)

[click on album to read review] (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11787)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 12, 2008, 03:33:36 AM

The Prokofiev - Beethoven Nexus

http://www.youtube.com/v/sfQb6BKq_ZU

Scythian Suite
Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra / Valery Gergiev

More Scythian Suite: http://www.youtube.com/v/9fdVbOJrLS4
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 07:31:27 PM
Richter plays Sonata No. 27 (op 90)

http://www.youtube.com/v/dxKssdbpOjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmBXW3N8z6E&feature=related

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 07:34:04 PM
7 Variations on Bei Mannern, welche Liebe Fuhlen

http://www.youtube.com/v/0jRjuZL9hMQ

Dragan Djordjevic and Dusan Egeric play Beethoven's 7 Variations on Bei Mannern, welche Liebe fuhlen from Mozart's Die Zaumberflote, WoO 46.
Belgrade International Cello Fest,
July 5, 2008.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 07:34:54 PM
Richter
http://www.youtube.com/v/5nRuVn4M9wU&feature=related

Sonata No. 18 in E-flat major, op. 31, no. 3
1. Allegro
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 07:35:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/5JwxxQIxL-g

Richter plays Beethoven - Sonata No. 17 in D minor, Opus 31 No. 2 ("The Tempest")
1. Largo - Allegro
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 07:37:06 PM
Radu Lupu -- Tempest
http://www.youtube.com/v/xPm1h0dhfwk

http://www.youtube.com/v/9MGHuRXeEzM

Radu Lupu plays Beethoven (Piano Sonata in D minor n°17 op.31 n°2 "Adagio") on a Piano Borgato, live in Perugia
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 07:38:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/KrC4P128htY

Ludwig van Beethoven
Piano concerto No. 5
in E flat major -- Es Dur -- op. 73 "Emperor"
III-- Rondo - Allegro. Piú allegro

Emil Gilels -- Э.
(1916 -- 1985)

Cleveland Orchestra
Conductor George Szell -- Дир. Дж. Селл
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2008, 06:00:28 PM
Annie Fischer - Beethoven Concerto no 5 "Emperor"

1/4 http://www.youtube.com/v/3csIAHXemy0&feature=related

2/4  http://www.youtube.com/v/bz2DpnNMEq0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/v/zL7Kgx9Jt1U&feature=related

WOW!

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 27, 2008, 06:12:20 PM
Quote from: Dm on August 27, 2008, 06:00:28 PM
Annie Fischer - Beethoven Concerto no 5 "Emperor"

WOW!

But how can that even begin to compare with Arthur Schoonderwoerd?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on August 28, 2008, 06:51:43 PM
To begin with, she can actually play the pieces.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2009, 06:28:02 AM
Does anyone know how I can get hold of Fiorentino's Beethoven cycle ? I have become really curious about this pianist recently.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 08, 2009, 07:14:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 08, 2009, 06:28:02 AM
Does anyone know how I can get hold of Fiorentino's Beethoven cycle ? I have become really curious about this pianist recently.

I found this info on a discography of LvB sets: (http://www.albany.edu/~rshaf/beethoven32.html)

"Fiorentino, Sergio - 8 CDs released on Concert Artist / Fidelio, recorded 1961-6. Missing only Sonata no.29?"

Sorry, I don't know where you can buy them.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 08, 2009, 07:16:28 AM
Just found these reviews of a few CDs of Fiorentino's LvB sonatas -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Mar03/Beethoven_PianoSonatas2.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Mar03/Beethoven_PianoSonatas4.htm
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 12, 2009, 06:53:20 AM
Kissin's LvB Concertos are supposed to be veeeeeery romantic. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on March 12, 2009, 06:58:00 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 12, 2009, 06:53:20 AMKissin's LvB Concertos are supposed to be veeeeeery romantic. Anyone know?


I have the set, and I don't know if I'd describe it as very romatic.  (I'm not sure how each person would define that anyway.)  On the romantic side of things, I suppose, but also modern and a bit indulgent on Kissin's part.  It's better than I thought it would be, and the 2nd and 5th both beat out his earlier recording.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 12, 2009, 07:00:17 AM
Quote from: Todd on March 12, 2009, 06:58:00 AM

I have the set, and I don't know if I'd describe it as very romatic.  (I'm not sure how each person would define that anyway.)  On the romantic side of things, I suppose, but also modern and a bit indulgent on Kissin's part.  It's better than I thought it would be, and the 2nd and 5th both beat out his earlier recording.

Cool. I'm getting it from the library and was wondering. You hear so little about Kissin here on GMG.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 12, 2009, 07:11:49 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 12, 2009, 07:00:17 AM
You hear so little about Kissin here on GMG.

Perhaps because a real collector doesn't Kissin and tell? 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 07:13:14 AM
Well, I can't comment on Kissin in these works, but did just received the 3-CD set below w/ Kuerti, but have not given the discs a listen yet - purchase based on an 'urgent recommendation' by Jerry Dubins in the Mar-Apr '09 issue of Fanfare, and further supported by Scott Morrison's laudatory remarks on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Concerti-Ludwig-van/dp/B001B3L5GS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236870140&sr=1-1); finally, the re-packaging makes a bargain set @ $13 on the Marketplace!   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660047_jykiy-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 12, 2009, 07:14:19 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2009, 07:13:14 AM
Well, I can't comment on Kissin in these works, but did just received the 3-CD set below w/ Kuerti, but have not given the discs a listen yet - purchase based on an 'urgent recommendation' by Jerry Dubins in the Mar-Apr '09 issue of Fanfare, and further supported by Scott Morrison's laudatory remarks on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Concerti-Ludwig-van/dp/B001B3L5GS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236870140&sr=1-1); finally, the re-packaging makes a bargain set @ $13 on the Marketplace!   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660047_jykiy-M.jpg)

Ha! See my post in the consideration of purchase thread.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on March 14, 2009, 07:42:48 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2009, 07:13:14 AMWell, I can't comment on Kissin in these works, but did just received the 3-CD set below


That Kuerti set is one of the best things he's recorded (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9060.msg226952.html#msg226952), and bests the Kissin set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2009, 07:57:33 PM
Quote from: Todd on March 14, 2009, 07:42:48 PM

That Kuerti set is one of the best things he's recorded (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9060.msg226952.html#msg226952), and bests the Kissin set.

Hi Todd - embarassed that I missed your usual superb review!  :-[  Tomorrow, I'm plannig to listen to this Beethoven cycle and now expect a great experience!  Thanks for the comments - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Guido on October 23, 2009, 01:59:14 AM
The Presto of op.130 is maybe my favourite fast movement in all of Beethoven. So quirky, so original, so imaginative, so mysterious, so charming, so pithy!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on December 16, 2009, 08:19:03 AM
Ashamed I had to go all the way to page 5 to find this thread... no posts in almost 2 months???

Anyways:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BEETHOVEN!!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on December 16, 2009, 08:27:38 AM
Checks iPod...

Yay! String trios...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Henk on December 16, 2009, 08:30:08 AM
Which Piano Concertos recordings do you recommend? I'm not satisfied with my Haitink / Perahia set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on December 16, 2009, 09:37:09 AM
Quote from: Henk on December 16, 2009, 08:30:08 AM
Which Piano Concertos recordings do you recommend? I'm not satisfied with my Haitink / Perahia set.

Russell Sherman/Nuemann - (if the slow movement of the 2nd PC is defective, as it is on many copies, have no fear, I've uploaded it to mediafire - http://www.mediafire.com/?a2c40zjmnk4)
At any rate, this set is something special, with great depth of expression and lovely sonics, all at a bargain basement price. Everyone should own this one.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HRME3C/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00005QDI0&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0Y1CP8QY6RPPV7B2164J

OR


Serkin/Kubelik - An old hand plays beautifully and powerfully in superb sound.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Die-Klavierkonzerte-Chorfantasie-Op/dp/B0009VNCT6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260988346&sr=1-2
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: MN-D4V3 on December 16, 2009, 08:27:38 AM
Checks iPod...

Yay! String trios...

Very nice, I love the string trios.  Which group/recording?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on December 16, 2009, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 09:38:03 AM
Very nice, I love the string trios.  Which group/recording?

Grumiaux Philips Duo thingy...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2009, 03:14:28 PM
Quote from: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 09:38:03 AM
Very nice, I love the string trios.  Which group/recording?

Ray - I own the 'bargain' 2-CD set on Brilliant w/ the Zurich String Trio; recorded in 2002 - Jerry Dubin's comments quoted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89410) - may put the first disc on next for our dinner music!  Dave  :D

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/Se2uQnrPXJI/AAAAAAAABMU/Yq7fehXJhew/s320/Beethoven_string_trios_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 05:35:16 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 16, 2009, 03:14:28 PM
Ray - I own the 'bargain' 2-CD set on Brilliant w/ the Zurich String Trio; recorded in 2002 - Jerry Dubin's comments quoted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89410) - may put the first disc on next for our dinner music!  Dave  :D

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/Se2uQnrPXJI/AAAAAAAABMU/Yq7fehXJhew/s320/Beethoven_string_trios_2.jpg)

That's the one I have too, Dave!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
Quote from: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 05:35:16 PM
That's the one I have too, Dave!  :)

Ray - LOL!  ;D  Our paths may have crossed on this set before?  For myself, I'm happy w/ this one - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 05:52:19 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 16, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
Ray - LOL!  ;D  Our paths may have crossed on this set before?  For myself, I'm happy w/ this one - Dave  :)

Yes, I think you're right.  I think you were the one that recommended it to me.  :D  Any fan of Beethoven, or chamber music in general should not forget these works, especially the Opus 9 trios.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: bhodges on January 22, 2010, 07:16:07 AM
Just got word of this concert in February, which is going to be broadcast live on radio and the Internet on WQXR (http://www.wqxr.org/).

Sunday, February 21, 2010, at 2:00 PM
Carnegie Hall

Orchestra of St. Luke's
Sir Roger Norrington, Conductor
Jessica Rivera, Soprano
Kelley O'Connor, Mezzo-Soprano
Eric Cutler, Tenor
Wayne Tigges, Bass-Baritone
Westminster Symphonic Choir
Joe Miller, Director

Haydn:  Symphony No. 99 in E-flat Major, H.1/99
Beethoven:  Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 "Choral"

--Bruce
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: dseegs on February 04, 2010, 08:48:30 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on February 04, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
Quote from: dseegs on February 04, 2010, 08:48:30 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???

Do whatever feels right. If you reach the 1st symphony and really dig it, then go right to the second one. If you start from the beginning and find yourself becoming bored, then maybe jump ahead to a more popular piece.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
Quote from: dseegs on February 04, 2010, 08:48:30 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???

Most, if not all, people tend to jump around, starting in fact with a middle-period or late work. But that is not because it has been found to be an effective method of listening to his music, but more to do with the popularity of his later works. (This is the case with most other famous composers, not just Beethoven.) It would  probably be easier to get your hands on the middle or late works, given that some early ("minor") works might have been recorded only once or twice.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2010, 08:57:26 AM
Quote from: Beethovenian on February 04, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
Do whatever feels right.

Yes, this is what I would also suggest. My earlier post was more like a statement of facts, rather than an opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on February 04, 2010, 09:10:02 AM
Quote from: dseegs on February 04, 2010, 08:48:30 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???

Hi dseegs, and welcome aboard!!  As the others have stated, start wherever you like!  For Beethoven, I'll recommend pretty much anything.  If you like the piano and strings combo, try some more trios, or go to the piano concertos (all 5) and piano sonatas (Moonlight, Pathetique, Op.2 or Op.7, Appassionata, etc).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lethevich on June 16, 2010, 08:13:31 AM
Do his opus 5 cello sonatas "officially" have two or three movements? I just noticed Wikipedia says that the first two "movements" indexed on many CDs are still technically one, leaving each piece with just two formal movements. This goes against what some CDs say, such as the Schiff ECM, which specifically call the movements I, I and III.

Edit: Ok that made no sense - rewrote it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2010, 08:28:59 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 16, 2010, 08:13:31 AM
Do his opus 5 cello sonatas "officially" have two or three movements?

Two movements: the first consisting of a slow introduction followed by the Allegro; second movement a Rondo.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lethevich on June 16, 2010, 08:41:12 AM
Thanks! Thanks seems to be a rare instance of when Wikipedia has been more reliable than record label notes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2010, 09:05:32 AM
Yep, Sarge, as is often the case, is right on. I have noticed in passing that ALL of my PI versions call it 2 movements, but some of my modern versions go for 3. Why you would want to separate the introduction off into its own movement is beyond me, especially when it moves on without a pause. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 11:41:50 AM
A tragi-comedic anecdote from the journal of Louis Spohr.

Beethoven was playing a new piano concerto of his, but already at the first 'tutti', forgetting that he was the soloist, he jumped up and began to conduct in his own peculiar fashion. At the first 'sforzando' he threw out his arms so wide that he knocked over both the lamps from the music stand of the piano. The audience laughed and Beethoven was so beside himself over this disturbance that he stopped the orchestra and made them start again. Seyfried, worried for fear that this would happen again in the same place, took the precaution of ordering two choir boys to stand next to Beethoven and to hold the lamps in their hands. One of them innocently stepped closer and followed the music from the piano part. But when the fatal 'sforzando' burst forth, the poor boy received from Beethoven's right hand such a sharp slap in the face that, terrified, he dropped the lamp on the floor. The other, more wary boy, who had been anxiously following Beethoven's movements, succeeded in avoiding the blow by ducking in time. If the audience had laughed the first time, they now indulged in a truly bacchanalian riot. Beethoven broke out in such a fury that when he struck the first chord of the solo he broke six strings. Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention remained unavailing for some time; thus the first Allegro of the Concerto was completely lost to the audience. Since this accident, Beethoven wanted to give no more concerts.

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on June 17, 2010, 11:47:39 AM
Damned lamps.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on June 17, 2010, 12:45:51 PM
That was freaking hilarious! :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 12:55:45 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 17, 2010, 12:45:51 PM
That was freaking hilarious! :D

Yes, I found it most amusing. BTW, IIRC, it was the 4th Piano Concerto, which I believe was the last piano work that he premiered in public (1808). :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 17, 2010, 01:08:36 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 11:41:50 AM
A tragi-comedic anecdote from the journal of Louis Spohr.

Beethoven was playing a new piano concerto of his, but already at the first 'tutti', forgetting that he was the soloist, he jumped up and began to conduct in his own peculiar fashion. At the first 'sforzando' he threw out his arms so wide that he knocked over both the lamps from the music stand of the piano. The audience laughed and Beethoven was so beside himself over this disturbance that he stopped the orchestra and made them start again. Seyfried, worried for fear that this would happen again in the same place, took the precaution of ordering two choir boys to stand next to Beethoven and to hold the lamps in their hands. One of them innocently stepped closer and followed the music from the piano part. But when the fatal 'sforzando' burst forth, the poor boy received from Beethoven's right hand such a sharp slap in the face that, terrified, he dropped the lamp on the floor. The other, more wary boy, who had been anxiously following Beethoven's movements, succeeded in avoiding the blow by ducking in time. If the audience had laughed the first time, they now indulged in a truly bacchanalian riot. Beethoven broke out in such a fury that when he struck the first chord of the solo he broke six strings. Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention remained unavailing for some time; thus the first Allegro of the Concerto was completely lost to the audience. Since this accident, Beethoven wanted to give no more concerts.

8)

That was funny, touchingly pathetic. A great way to demystify some things, to bring them back to a human scale. Thanks, Gurn.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 01:15:37 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 17, 2010, 01:08:36 PM
That was funny, touchingly pathetic. A great way to demystify some things, to bring them back to a human scale. Thanks, Gurn.  :)

Yr, welcome, Antoine. There is another story from Spohr about Beethoven's conducting. It doesn't have the tragic aspect that this one had (except that his deafness plays a part), it just makes a funny mental picture. I will find it tonight and type it up. Beethoven was a character all on his own, that's for sure! :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Franco on June 22, 2010, 08:13:16 AM
Not since the '70s and Walter Murphy's "A Fifth of Beethoven" have I heard something so trite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78&feature=email

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on June 22, 2010, 08:58:36 AM
Quote from: Franco on June 22, 2010, 08:13:16 AM
Not since the '70s and Walter Murphy's "A Fifth of Beethoven" have I heard something so trite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78&feature=email

After listening to that, go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEI_8de-44A) to cleanse your ears.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on June 22, 2010, 09:09:50 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 22, 2010, 08:58:36 AM
After listening to that, go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEI_8de-44A) to cleanse your ears.

Hey Opus 106,

Is that the 1963 performance?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 09:13:23 AM
Quote from: George on June 22, 2010, 09:09:50 AM
Hey Opus 106,

Is that the 1963 performance?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AROrMIcuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Was separate from the DG recordings, made for a German television series, I believe.  Sort of a Karajan version of Bernstein's Omnibus appearances.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on June 22, 2010, 09:46:30 AM
Quote from: George on June 22, 2010, 09:09:50 AM
Hey Opus 106,

Is that the 1963 performance?

Sorry, George, I have little idea of when it was produced. I'm taking Scarpia's word for this one. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bulldog on June 22, 2010, 09:50:54 AM
Quote from: Franco on June 22, 2010, 08:13:16 AM
Not since the '70s and Walter Murphy's "A Fifth of Beethoven" have I heard something so trite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78&feature=email

Bad for listening, good for dancing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on June 22, 2010, 11:31:55 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on June 22, 2010, 09:46:30 AM
Sorry, George, I have little idea of when it was produced. I'm taking Scarpia's word for this one. :)

Me too. God help us all!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 11:35:13 AM
Quote from: George on June 22, 2010, 11:31:55 AM
Me too. God help us all!  ;D

:'(

BTW, I have the DVD and it is quite interesting.  In addition to complete performances of the two symphonies, there is what appears to be genuine rehearsal footage of the Schumann 4th which is quite interesting.  There is also a sequence where Karajan instructs a young conductor on how to conduct the second movement of Beethoven's 5th, which is also interesting, in a slightly cringeworthy way.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on June 22, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 11:35:13 AM
:'(

>:D

Quote
BTW, I have the DVD and it is quite interesting.  In addition to complete performances of the two symphonies, there is what appears to be genuine rehearsal footage of the Schumann 4th which is quite interesting.  There is also a sequence where Karajan instructs a young conductor on how to conduct the second movement of Beethoven's 5th, which is also interesting, in a slightly cringeworthy way.

Cool, what year was that 5th performed?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 11:47:56 AM
Quote from: George on June 22, 2010, 11:45:40 AM
>:D

Cool, what year was that 5th performed?

Maybe 1966.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on July 22, 2010, 03:14:34 AM
Posted this yesterday, but a few people told me that they couldn't see the image, so I am reposting, using a new link:

(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2088/beethoveno.jpg)

Took this photo of the Beethoven monument in Central Park today and figured I'd share it with you guys.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on July 22, 2010, 04:29:34 AM
Thanks, George. :) Any other classical composers commemorated there?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on July 22, 2010, 07:36:40 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 22, 2010, 04:29:34 AM
Thanks, George. :) Any other classical composers commemorated there?

There are other classical composers?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on July 22, 2010, 07:41:46 AM
Quote from: George on July 22, 2010, 07:36:40 AM
There are other classical composers?

Yeah, sure. You should expand your horizons a bit -- listening only to Beethoven sonatas will just not do. :D

;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on July 22, 2010, 08:39:03 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on July 22, 2010, 07:41:46 AM
Yeah, sure. You should expand your horizons a bit -- listening only to Beethoven sonatas will just not do. :D

;)

Ok, I'll listen to the quartets as well.  :-\

;)

Seriously, I haven't noticed any other monuments for composers while out in Central Park.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on July 22, 2010, 12:47:31 PM
Quote from: George on July 22, 2010, 08:39:03 AM
Ok, I'll listen to the quartets as well.  :-\

;)

Seriously, I haven't noticed any other monuments for composers while out in Central Park.

here's the Wikipedia list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sculptures_in_Central_Park
Victor Herbert has a bust somewhere in the Park, but I don't see any other musical names.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Central_Park_NYC_-_Victor_Herbert_statue_by_Edmund_Thomas_Quinn_-_IMG_5718.JPG/450px-Central_Park_NYC_-_Victor_Herbert_statue_by_Edmund_Thomas_Quinn_-_IMG_5718.JPG)

Verdi has his own square
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdi_Square
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/WTM_NewYorkDolls_049.jpg/450px-WTM_NewYorkDolls_049.jpg)

The Wikipedia illustration is not that great.  Look dead center to see the statute; because of its color  blends with that of the building behind it, it may be hard to see at first.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2010, 08:50:05 AM
Okay, folks, does the finale of Op 18 No 3 sound a LOT like the Mexican Hat Dance, or is it just me?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2010, 08:58:34 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2010, 08:50:05 AM
Okay, folks, does the finale of Op 18 No 3 sound a LOT like the Mexican Hat Dance, or is it just me?

Olé!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on September 11, 2010, 12:49:46 PM
Beethoven Fest 2010 Begins.

Official Webstite (http://en.beethovenfest.de/home/) (English)
Portal at DW TV's website (http://www.dw-world.de/beethoven)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on November 01, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
I've recently had occasion to do some in-depth listening to Beethoven's early piano variations, on themes by Haibel, Sussmayr, Salieri, and Wranitzky. The results have really been interesting. It turns out that via careful listening to these pieces we can learn a little bit about how Beethoven learned to use the theme and variations format, and the sort of "tools" he would use to master it. Who are we kidding: the sort of tricks he would use to write the best variations movements ever composed. I'm sure most of the ideas in my essay will be familiar to most readers, but maybe one of them is new.  :D

Here's a link to my MusicWeb essay (in disguise as a review) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/Beethoven_Variations_572160.htm) but the relevant section is pasted below.

QuoteTheme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer's career: consider the mighty variation movements in the Third, Fifth, and Ninth symphonies, the piano sonatas opp. 109 and 111, and the monumental Diabelli set. If you are at all fond of those works, you should listen to the early Beethoven variations, for they really do provide great insights into his evolving language and his way of creating something stupendous out of nothing.

I say "nothing" because one of the insights on offer here is that Beethoven consciously chose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes for his variations. The Diabelli waltz theme is, in that sense, perfect for Beethoven's purpose: if you set it alongside Wranitzky's dull Russian Dance, or Haibel's genial but forgettable minuet, or (dare I say it) the Eroica tune, you see that they really are all cut from the same cloth; the rhythmic similarity between Diabelli's theme and Salieri's is truly striking. The themes are canvases on which Beethoven paints; in fact they are rather cheap canvases from the supermarket chosen in order to demonstrate all the more clearly that the credit belongs solely to the painter.

Typical of this style is the Haibel set: immediately, with the first variation, Beethoven leaps into a wholly different mood and style. Not for him the classical-era plan of simply ornamenting the tune with little decorations, then having the left and right hands switch, then altering the melody by one or two notes. Beethoven leaps in at the deep end. Already we can hear his adventurousness and his conception of variations as transformative. This structure will be taken to more profound heights in works like the last piano sonata but even in the 1790s Beethoven was writing "theme and transformations".

The first variation of the Wranitzky set is more conventional, but in exactly five minutes the theme is rendered completely unrecognizable and the work becomes wholly Beethoven's. And there are vintage Beethoven moments all through these early works, like his habit - to be highlighted in the piano and orchestral Eroica variations - of leaving melodies hanging confidently in midair halfway through, pausing, and then rolling in with the resolutions. The luminous Wranitzky variation at about 3:35 presages some of Beethoven's transcendent writing in the last sonatas; the fact that Beethoven cannot even wait until Salieri's theme is over before beginning to toy with it brought a smile to my face. The Salieri set, although a bit monotonous, does introduce the classically Beethovenian idea of bringing back the original theme at the end, subtly transformed.
[...]
For Beethoven lovers and aficionados his early variations are essential listening and have greatly aided me in my listening to his late masterworks in the genre. If you are a casual fan, you may find this music to be of less obvious interest, since so much of it is light, witty, and clever, rather than fiery as the cover might imply. It is not 'vintage Beethoven' by any means. But hints of 'vintage Beethoven' are to be heard in every work, and that is why real devotees of the composer will find this volume fascinating.

EDIT: oh yeah, and what was this thread doing on Page 6??
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2011, 05:58:09 AM
Listening to Beethoven's string quartet Op 95 "serioso" a few times this month has convinced me that its slow movement, an allegretto in fact, is my personal "model" slow movement. It seems to me to be perfect: an intriguing "hook" to bring the listener into the drama, intensely personal themes, breathtakingly good transitions from one subject to another so that you almost can't tell where sections begin and end, the way the themes are mixed and matched over the course of the work. And it's precisely the right length to say everything it needs to; I listen to it and feel neither like time has been wasted nor like I would have gladly listened to five more minutes. Concise, beautiful, terrificly wrought... for this month (perhaps for this month only), quite possibly my favorite movement of any Beethoven work. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 05:45:49 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 01, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer's career: consider the mighty variation movements in the Third, Fifth, and Ninth symphonies, the piano sonatas opp. 109 and 111, and the monumental Diabelli set. If you are at all fond of those works, you should listen to the early Beethoven variations, for they really do provide great insights into his evolving language and his way of creating something stupendous out of nothing.

I say "nothing" because one of the insights on offer here is that Beethoven consciously chose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes for his variations.

I'm sorry, dear friend, but I must stop you right there. Undeniably Beethoven's variations sets were among his crowning achievements - and you leave out some of the most striking examples, such as the slow movements of the Kreutzer sonata, the Archduke Trio, and the Quartets opp. 127, 131, and 135. And note that almost always, the Eroica finale and the Diabellis excepted (the latter being a whole world unto itself), these variation sets served as slow movements in larger multi-movement works. For Beethoven variation form was often a vehicle for the highest order of lyricism, and the Diabelli set notwithstanding, Beethoven did not by any means "consciously choose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes" for many of his variation sets. Something like the theme of the variations from op. 127 went through a great deal of revision to bring it to the polish and sense of lyrical spontaneity he eventually achieved.

And since variation form was predominantly an outlet for lyricism in Beethoven, it stands to reason that it cannot alone be the "central form" in Beethoven's career. Composers of instrumental music at this time had perhaps three or four basic templates for developing their work - variation, minuet or scherzo with trio, rondo, and above all sonata form. Sonata form especially is everywhere in Beethoven, and it is rare to find a major work without it (the only example I can think of is the piano sonata in A flat, op. 26). Whereas variation form proceeds as an accumulation of momentum, with each variation preserving the phrase structure of the theme, sonata form provides the greatest opportunities for contrast, conflict, and resolution that I suspect most of us will agree are central to Beethoven's musical personality. And so I think that any claim (even implicit) that sonata form is less "central" than variation is to shortchange an aspect of his musical language that is arguably at least as essential.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 17, 2011, 07:01:34 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 01, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer's career

I must agree with Sforzando, this is a silly statement, given the central role of Sonata form is so many of Beethoven's works.  This is not to deny that Beethoven had taken "variations" to levels that were beyond what his immediate predecessors did, but I find Beethoven's Sonata form movements typically contain his most characterist utterances.  I also find your use of the word "vintage" to be puzzling.  Vintage refers to the age of something, not its quality.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 07:22:33 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 17, 2011, 07:01:34 PM
I also find your use of the word "vintage" to be puzzling.  Vintage refers to the age of something, not its quality.

I'm going to stick up for Brian here. Strictly speaking, you're probably right, but:

Wikipedia:
Vintage, in wine-making, is the process of picking grapes and creating the finished product. A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year. In certain wines, it can denote quality, as in Port wine, where Port houses make and declare vintage Port in their best years. From this tradition, a common, though incorrect, usage applies the term to any wine that is perceived to be particularly old or of a particularly high quality.

Dictionary.com:
–adjective
7. of or pertaining to wines or winemaking.
8. being of a specified vintage: Vintage wines are usually more expensive than nonvintage wines.
9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.
10. old-fashioned or obsolete: vintage jokes.
11. being the best of its kind: They praised the play as vintage O'Neill.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 18, 2011, 05:08:57 AM
Quote from: Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 07:22:33 PM
I'm going to stick up for Brian here. Strictly speaking, you're probably right, but:

Wikipedia:
Vintage, in wine-making, is the process of picking grapes and creating the finished product. A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year. In certain wines, it can denote quality, as in Port wine, where Port houses make and declare vintage Port in their best years. From this tradition, a common, though incorrect, usage applies the term to any wine that is perceived to be particularly old or of a particularly high quality.

Dictionary.com:
–adjective
7. of or pertaining to wines or winemaking.
8. being of a specified vintage: Vintage wines are usually more expensive than nonvintage wines.
9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.
10. old-fashioned or obsolete: vintage jokes.
11. being the best of its kind: They praised the play as vintage O'Neill.

I guess in English nothing is incorrect, really. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 05:45:49 PM
I'm sorry, dear friend, but I must stop you right there. Undeniably Beethoven's variations sets were among his crowning achievements .... [but] it cannot alone be the "central form" in Beethoven's career. Composers of instrumental music at this time had perhaps three or four basic templates for developing their work - variation, minuet or scherzo with trio, rondo, and above all sonata form. Sonata form especially is everywhere in Beethoven, and it is rare to find a major work without it (the only example I can think of is the piano sonata in A flat, op. 26). Whereas variation form proceeds as an accumulation of momentum, with each variation preserving the phrase structure of the theme, sonata form provides the greatest opportunities for contrast, conflict, and resolution that I suspect most of us will agree are central to Beethoven's musical personality. And so I think that any claim (even implicit) that sonata form is less "central" than variation is to shortchange an aspect of his musical language that is arguably at least as essential.

Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different, namely
1. that variations are central to the "musical personality" in the sense that they express uniquely Beethovenian ideas in nearly every instance, and in nearly every instance are conceived and structured in a uniquely Beethovenian way. This breaks down into a number of theses: the form was adopted by Beethoven and given its own unique style; its products seem to drive to the core of the composer's spirit; at many of the most crucial moments in his music he turned to t&v to express what he needed to say.

One gets a powerful sense of the purpose and essence of his music when hearing, for example, the sonata-form Symphony 5 movement i, and his "declaration of independence," as it were, the Eroica, features two sonata forms and a variations movement. What I primarily intended to point out in the review was that the uniquely "Beethovenian" treatment of variations which he exhibited throughout his career was in some ways established very early on, so we can hear characteristics of, say, opp 109/111 in the early unpublished sets. In my defense it might be pointed out here that, in his late period, the variations started popping up nearly everywhere: Opp 107 (a minor work), 109, 111, 120, 125 (finale is a hybrid t&v, too), 127, 131, 135. Excluding Op 107, that's seven or eight, depending on how you count, from the 1820s. Which leads to the second point of my thinking...

2. that variations, as a form, are associated with Beethoven more than anyone else (except Bach?). Probably (you'd be a better judge of this point since my Bach knowledge is weak and I freely drop Beethoven from "more than anyone else" to "Top Three/Five!" if necessary) Bach, Mozart, and Haydn turned to t&v more often, and Brahms regularly triumphed in the form, but Beethoven produced a just startling number of absolutely monumental variation movements. Others before him had incorporated t&v into sonatas, quartets, and symphonies, but I'm not aware of anyone who had written an entire four-movement symphony comprised of elaborate movement-long variations on (settings of?) a single four-note motif, and in my admittedly limited experience am aware of only one similar feat accomplished since.

Quote from: Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 05:45:49 PM
For Beethoven variation form was often a vehicle for the highest order of lyricism, and the Diabelli set notwithstanding, Beethoven did not by any means "consciously choose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes" for many of his variation sets. Something like the theme of the variations from op. 127 went through a great deal of revision to bring it to the polish and sense of lyrical spontaneity he eventually achieved.

I'd argue that blandness is a trait of the themes by other composers which he chose to vary, were I given the chance to edit my essay to take this point into account. The only original theme I cite as being "chosen" for blandness is the Eroica; I certainly would not want to be calling Op 109 or 127 "boring."

As for "vintage," saying "this is vintage Dvorak" or "vintage Beethoven" or "vintage whomever" has become so standard it's no use avoiding it. Consider (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,220.msg446877.html#msg446877) evidence (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33.msg441134.html#msg441134) of (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3689.msg436669.html#msg436669) the (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg391149.html#msg391149) word's (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3196.msg376108.html#msg376108) pervasiveness (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11997.msg295554.html#msg295554) on (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16158.msg407262.html#msg407262) GMG (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,526.msg10898.html#msg10898) alone. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5078.msg122033.html#msg122033)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 19, 2011, 03:58:47 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different. . .

That is a more subtle and credible argument than I had inferred from your original post. Nonetheless, there are a number of points in it that I would question when I get a bit more time this evening.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 19, 2011, 07:58:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PMI'm not aware of anyone who had written an entire four-movement symphony comprised of elaborate movement-long variations on (settings of?) a single four-note motif, and in my admittedly limited experience am aware of only one similar feat accomplished since.

Are you talking about the 5th symphony? 

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 19, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
Sforzando - an additional thought I had while walking through the British Library today is that - whether rightfully or out of listener's prejudice - I think of sonata form as a sort of "default" for some of the forms Beethoven inherited: ie, you start a symphony/sonata/quartet with a sonata-form movement, it's one of the top options for the andante/adagio, etc. Beethoven effected huge changes on the sonata form (expansion or deletion of introductions, massive expansion of developments and codas, often greater weight for the third or "outro" theme; perhaps someone can tell me if he was first to insert fugue sections?) as he effected huge changes to the theme and variations form (hence why I call it, somewhat slickly but I think rightly, "theme and transformations") - as well as to how t&v was used, to form the emotional heart of works rather than a diverting demonstration of wit. His predecessors in that vein are Bach, Haydn's keyboard F minor variations, and... I don't know of much of a crowd there.   :-\

I guess the way that this explains my above posts is, I didn't think of sonata form being central because it was also central in the Mozart and Haydn outputs, and indeed Ries, Hummel, Schubert, etc. So it seemed to me that saying sonata form was central would be like saying political freedom is central is to Great Britain - true, of course, but saying more about the well-known efficacy of political freedom than about British taste.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 19, 2011, 07:58:16 AM
Are you talking about the 5th symphony?

Yes, sir.

Quote from: mn dave on January 19, 2011, 09:58:16 AM
di-di-di-DAAAH!  ;D

Yes, sir! (I'm being creepy by quoting a post after mine.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: The Diner on January 19, 2011, 09:58:16 AM
di-di-di-DAAAH!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 19, 2011, 10:16:54 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 19, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
Yes, sir.

You are stretching it a bit to go from the appearance of a rhythmic motif in the four movements of the symphony to say that the symphony is organized on variations on that motif.   It has an essential role in the first movement, since it is the basis of the principal theme of the movement.  The other four movements have their own themes, in which the rhythmic motif is woven to give a sense of unity.  To characterize the symphony as "variations" on that motif is dramatically overstating things, in my opinion.

On the other hand, in Brahms 3 the I-III-VIII figure that opens the first movement really does pervade the entire work, and your claim about Beethoven's fifth might really describe that piece, IMO.

In my view (which is quite a conventional view, I have to admit) the essence of Beethoven is the way he takes the small motifs from which his themes are built and transforms and collides and juxtaposes them.   I would say the most brilliant thing that happens in Beethoven's fifth is the way the gentle second subject of the first movement takes on the urgency of the first theme in the blazing coda to that movement (ba-ba-ba-baaa's in the accompanying voices not withstanding).  That is the epitome of sonata form development, not theme and variations.  That fact that you can wake up from a nap at any point in Beethoven's fifth and manage to find a ba-ba-ba-baaa somewhere in the orchestral texture is not the most essential thing, IMO.


Title: Beethoven's Ninth Raises Blood Pressure
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2011, 11:05:14 AM
One of my Seventh Graders informed me today that his science-fair project involved measuring blood pressure as a response to different types of music.

30 people were tested.

The opening two minutes of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony raised more people's blood pressure than anything else.   :o

Two minutes of some rock song (I had never heard of it) came in second, followed by two minutes of a country song by Dire Straits.   0:)

Showing little influence on blood pressure was some sort of "cool jazz."   8)

So why did Beethoven's work do this to people?

To be sure: it is a stressful work!

Perhaps they thought they would have to listen to the entire work!   :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Ninth Raises Blood Pressure
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2011, 11:09:59 AM
Quote from: Mensch on January 19, 2011, 11:08:28 AM
Perhaps they were stressed in anticipation of hearing Olbermann next.

Olbermann's Sixth is terrifying.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Ninth Raises Blood Pressure
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 19, 2011, 03:06:50 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 19, 2011, 11:09:59 AM
Olbermann's Sixth is terrifying.

So is Liszt's "Vallee d'Keith Olbermann."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 19, 2011, 07:02:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different,

Just a few observations about Brian's posts:

The Eroica is in four movements – sonata form, funeral march with trio, scherzo with trio, and variations. Each of these movements, the scherzo perhaps excepted, does something to expand and challenge any received ideas about how these kinds of form could be treated.

I would be interested in how you hear characteristics of 109/111 in the early works.

The slow movement of 132 has to be included in the late variation sets too. It is an ABABA + coda format, where each repetition of the A section is a strict variation in faster note values.

The finale of 125 has some variation sections, primarily the instrumental treatment of the Big Tune before the bass comes in, but I prefer to call it a cantata and leave it at that.

Bach wrote some amazing variations, and besides the Goldbergs there are the organ passacaglia in C minor and the solo violin chaconne in D minor. But although the idea of an extended variation movement did not originate with Bach (there are precedents, for example, in the English 16th-century virginalists like Bull, Byrd, and Farnaby), the Goldberg set was unique in Bach's output.

I agree with Scarps on the Fifth Symphony. I think the relevance of that opening motif to the rest of the symphony has been considerably overstated, and it's not correct to say the symphony is a set of four variation movements. (Broadly speaking, they are: sonata form, variations, scherzo with trio, and sonata form.) Besides, when Beethoven writes a set of variations, they generally follow fairly strictly the phrase structure of the theme, though there may be freely structured episodes.

I don't know what later variation work you're alluding to. Schubert in the Wanderer Fantasy attempted to base all the movements very loosely on the opening theme of the first movement; Saint-Saens did something similar in his Third Symphony.

The first to insert fugue sections in sonata form? By no means. Think of Mozart's Jupiter for just the most obvious example.

As for blandness, that depends. Two of the sets of variations for cello/piano are based on themes from Mozart's Magic Flute. The uniqueness of the Diabelli set is that Beethoven went farther than ever before to develop the motivic potential in the silly and apparently unpromising theme. Individual variations exploit the opening grace note motif, or the repeated chords, or the drop of a perfect fourth. A later variation set like Britten's Purcell Variations, aka the Young Person's Guide, develops the motivic qualities of the theme while leaving behind completely the classical insistence on maintaining the phrase structure.

On the whole, though, I think this is a more convincing way of approaching the topic than I had gotten from your first comment. And I agree entirely that "Beethoven effected huge changes on the sonata form (expansion or deletion of introductions, massive expansion of developments and codas, etc." That's an excellent and relevant comment. But that being the case, you let me down badly when you write, "I didn't think of sonata form being central because it was also central in the Mozart and Haydn outputs, and indeed Ries, Hummel, Schubert, etc." I would instead argue that Beethoven made sonata form as much his own as he did variations.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on February 08, 2011, 04:13:24 AM
Based on recent Twitter chatter, this past weekend the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor Hilary Davan Wetton recorded the Choral Fantasy. Pianist Leon McCawley, choir City of London Choir, label Naxos.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your post, Sforzando, only recently I've had time mostly for short little zinger posts and not long, interesting ones.  :(
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 08, 2011, 04:18:32 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 08, 2011, 04:13:24 AM
Twitter chatter
Say that one 5 times in a row fast!   :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 04:21:28 AM
Quote from: Brian on February 08, 2011, 04:13:24 AM
Based on recent Twitter chatter, this past weekend the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor Hilary Davan Wetton recorded the Choral Fantasy. Pianist Leon McCawley, choir City of London Choir, label Naxos.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your post, Sforzando, only recently I've had time mostly for short little zinger posts and not long, interesting ones.  :(

Quite all right, Brian.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on April 07, 2011, 03:55:00 AM
I've recently unearthed, at the British Library, a trove of concert programs kept by the English conductor Sir George Smart, active in the 1810s-30s, who was a major Beethoven advocate, leading the English premiere of Beethoven's Ninth and at one point traveling to Vienna to ask the composer about the proper tempos for all the symphonies. Beethoven composed a short unpublished canon in his presence (16th September 1825). For concerts he conducted, Smart not only kept the programs, but made little notations of some of the timings of the works which most interested him, as well as how long the interval was and when everybody got to go home.

These two struck me as interesting:

5th of May, 1823. Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] "32 M. No repeats."
March 23, 1829: Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] "All through but no repeats 32 ½ minutes."

Karajan '62 (no repeats) is 36 minutes. Norrington LCP (w/ repeats) is 40, Bruggen (also with repeats) 42, and the ultimate romantic, Barenboim, takes 45.

On March 1, 1830, the Sinfonia in C minor was 26 minutes, though in 1827 it had been 31 (no mention of repeats). In March 1833, "Sinfonia No. VII." was "40 m." including "Slow movement Enc'd:" and a marginal note informs us that the encore was partly because the symphony was to be followed by an aria from Cosi, but the soprano arrived very late indeed, "just after we began the Encore of the...Beethoven" . Apparently the reason for her delay was that she was also performing in another concert at another theatre that night!

It's very interesting seeing how programs were constructed. One night in 1825 began with Beethoven's 4th ("in Bb 31 minutes"), which was immediately followed by "La ci darem"! And here's the second half of the March 7, 1825 Philharmonic Society concert:

Sinfonia in C minor - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beethoven
Aria, "Il mio tesoro," (Il Don Giovanni) - - - - - - - Mozart
Introduction and variations, Corno obligato - - - Schuncke
Scena, "Softly sighs" (Der Freischutz*) - - - - - - Weber
Overture, Preciosa - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Weber
[*sung in English. All German arias were translated; there are numerous arias sung from a Mozart work called "Il Flauto Magico" ;D , and also see below]

Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

Oddly, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says "Smart conducted the first English performance of Beethoven's ninth symphony at the Philharmonic Society in 1826," an error, as it was actually in March 21, 1825. Smart's handwritten note says, "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia (M.S.) with Vocal Finale - Beethoven. Composed expressly for this Society _ (Italian Words [!]) Formed 2d Act of the Concert." The performance "Began 22m past 10" and the concert "over 26m past 11" - Smart's note says "1 H 04 M." In my view, this puts the "Beethoven's Ninth is supposed to only be 45 minutes long" theory to bed, for although it is true that Smart only met Beethoven to consult on tempos later that year, I'm not sure you can get down to 45 minutes by faster speeds alone, especially given that Smart himself was quite a snappy conductor, by the looks of it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 07, 2011, 04:14:29 AM
Fascinating bit of research; thanks for sharing. Re this:

Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2011, 03:55:00 AM
Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

I've heard that it used to be normal to put the "heavy" work at the beginning of a concert. This was common until some time in the mid-20th c., at which point the reverse order began to predominate. Why this change occurred, I don't know. Anyone?

Quote"New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia (M.S.) with Vocal Finale - Beethoven.

Another puzzlement. Did composers not give numbers to their symphonies in LvB's time? All I see here are key designations and nicknames. The latter make sense as shorthand, but if I see "symphony by Herr Haydn in C major," how am I supposed to know which of the many works fitting that description is meant? In any case, I'm glad that LvB 9 is no longer marketed as "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 07, 2011, 04:18:11 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2011, 03:55:00 AM
Introduction and variations, Corno obligato - - - Schuncke

Couldn't resist looking this guy up. Apparently a friend of Schumann's, who died at the age of 23. Ah, the promise snuffed out... :'(
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2011, 04:20:04 AM
Nice post, Brian. I especially like the concert programme bit. It is quite in keeping with somethings I have maintained in this space previously vis-a-vis making a nice evening's listening out of a variety of styles and conductors. Good lineup too! :)

Well, I have always thought that Luigi was being rather tongue-in-cheek with Smart when he told him 45 minutes for the 9th. Sort of like "here's a target for you!". I think that what he was really saying was don't drag it out. It isn't maestoso from beginning to end, it's maestoso where I very capably wrote maestoso! :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2011, 04:24:27 AM
Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 04:14:29 AM
Another puzzlement. Did composers not give numbers to their symphonies in LvB's time? All I see here are key designations and nicknames. The latter make sense as shorthand, but if I see "symphony by Herr Haydn in C major," how am I supposed to know which of the many works fitting that description is meant? In any case, I'm glad that LvB 9 is no longer marketed as "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia."

Really, they didn't, not that I've ever seen written down in their correspondence. Only the publishers did that, when they put a score in their catalog. I don't think it was in vogue yet to use Symphony #X. Your specific Haydn example still causes puzzlement even today, as except for one in f# and one in B, I don't know that he has any other unique key signatures to go by.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2011, 04:45:45 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 07, 2011, 04:24:27 AM
Really, they didn't, not that I've ever seen written down in their correspondence. Only the publishers did that, when they put a score in their catalog. I don't think it was in vogue yet to use Symphony #X.

Right . . . I think that was a type of "composer self-awareness" which didn't set in until mid- to late-19th c.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on April 07, 2011, 05:29:28 AM
Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 04:14:29 AM
Another puzzlement. Did composers not give numbers to their symphonies in LvB's time? All I see here are key designations and nicknames. The latter make sense as shorthand, but if I see "symphony by Herr Haydn in C major," how am I supposed to know which of the many works fitting that description is meant? In any case, I'm glad that LvB 9 is no longer marketed as "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia."

Actually - bafflingly - sometimes the Haydn Symphonies are numbered! However, they are numbered 1-12, so for example many programs sported "Haydn Symphony No 3." At first I thought this was a reference to the order of the "London Symphonies," but the key signatures don't line up. And, since there are two London Symphonies in D major, for example, without a known "field guide" to how the works were numbered back then, we'd be utterly at sea to know what Haydn's Third Symphony was.

Along the same lines, one program featured Mozart's "Symphony Op. 6"!

Beethoven's Symphony No 8 is the only Beethoven work to get numbered in the programs I've seen so far. They almost always go by key signatures or nicknames.

Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 04:18:11 AM
Couldn't resist looking this guy up. Apparently a friend of Schumann's, who died at the age of 23. Ah, the promise snuffed out... :'(

According to the program, Schuncke was playing his own corno, too. :( The big symphonies seem to always have been at the beginning, and the ends of the concerts were almost invariably opera overtures - moreover, each half was about 80-90 minutes long so the effect was like having two modern concerts, in reverse order, on one night. The average Smart concert (average!) began at about 8:10 pm, ended at about 11:05 pm, and included a single 20-minute intermission.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 07, 2011, 04:20:04 AM
Well, I have always thought that Luigi was being rather tongue-in-cheek with Smart

Is that Luigi van Beethoven?  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on April 07, 2011, 05:34:12 AM
Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 04:14:29 AM
I've heard that it used to be normal to put the "heavy" work at the beginning of a concert. This was common until some time in the mid-20th c., at which point the reverse order began to predominate. Why this change occurred, I don't know. Anyone?

AFAIK, they put the "newest" work first --- and "first" is just a relative term, as a symphony was oftenly split in its constitutive parts separated by other works by other composers. It's only after the Great Canon was firmly established and imposed by the Romantics that the "newest" began to be also "heavy".

Of course, "heavy" had to be balanced by some "lighter" works: the evening was long, the concert was not only an artistic but also a social event and nobody was expected to stiffly and silently sit through four hours of "transcendental", "heavy" stuff. I guess the lighter fillers were similar in purpose with the aria di sorbetto in operas: to allow the audience to have some refreshments, comment upon previous music or socialize in whatever way they saw fit, while providing a nice aural background and the opportunity for some starters to begin their career.

Today the situation is indeed reversed: the "heavy" is programmed last --- but it is only too understandable: if a concert today would feature Brahms' 4th first and some contemporary or modern piece last, I'm willing to bet that more than half of the audience would vanish during the intermission.  ;D

That's just my two cents.  :)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 07, 2011, 05:42:13 AM
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2011, 05:29:28 AM

Beethoven's Symphony No 8 is the only Beethoven work to get numbered in the programs I've seen so far.

That makes some sense - it was his 2nd symphony in F major. Better a number than calling it "The Non-Pastoral." Personally I find names and numbers a lot easier to remember than keys.

QuoteAccording to the program, Schuncke was playing his own corno, too. :( The big symphonies seem to always have been at the beginning, and the ends of the concerts were almost invariably opera overtures - moreover, each half was about 80-90 minutes long so the effect was like having two modern concerts, in reverse order, on one night. The average Smart concert (average!) began at about 8:10 pm, ended at about 11:05 pm, and included a single 20-minute intermission.

It seems that concerts in those days were more like mini-festivals than our modern idea of concerts. Understandable perhaps when you can't just throw on a recording.

Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on April 07, 2011, 05:34:12 AM
AFAIK, they put the "newest" work first --- and "first" is just a relative term, as a symphony was oftenly split in its constitutive parts separated by other works by other composers.

Remember that the next time some purist tells you it's improper to listen to single movements of a symphony rather than the whole thing!

QuoteToday the situation is indeed reversed: the "heavy" is programmed last --- but it is only too understandable: if a concert today would feature Brahms' 4th first and some contemporary or modern piece last, I'm willing to bet that more than half of the audience would vanish during the intermission.  ;D

I know they do this, but IMHO the rationale is faulty. Isn't it just as easy to show up late as to leave early?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on April 07, 2011, 05:51:57 AM
Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 05:42:13 AM
Remember that the next time some purist tells you it's improper to listen to single movements of a symphony rather than the whole thing!

That would be a purist of modern persuassion... perhaps a purist of the 1820 school would be horrified by our concert / listening habits.  :D

Quote
I know they do this, but IMHO the rationale is faulty. Isn't it just as easy to show up late as to leave early?

Of course it is, but why they really prefer an order New-Old I don't know.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on April 07, 2011, 05:54:42 AM
Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 05:42:13 AM
It seems that concerts in those days were more like mini-festivals than our modern idea of concerts. Understandable perhaps when you can't just throw on a recording.

Which is why the calls for encores were so vehement - on one program, Smart says that the Euryanthe overture was demanded a second time very strongly, so he had to speak to the audience about how some of the musicians really needed to go, but he got shouted down! And with reason: those folks weren't going to hear the Euryanthe overture again for years.

Quote from: Velimir on April 07, 2011, 05:42:13 AM
I know they do this, but IMHO the rationale is faulty. Isn't it just as easy to show up late as to leave early?

The most important stuff would actually be in the middle - particularly the symphony at the start of Part II. Reason being that especially back then, showing up late was the sign of a truly fashionable person. Starting with instrumental stuff and then moving to concertos/arias was a trend that began originally because that was the stuff people didn't mind missing while they arrived late. Which maybe explains why living composers get played first today  >:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Que on April 18, 2011, 12:33:54 PM
A new recording of the incidental music to Egmont doesn't come around every day! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260034867673.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2011, 12:37:46 PM
Quote from: Que on April 18, 2011, 12:33:54 PM
A new recording of the incidental music to Egmont doesn't come around every day! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260034867673.jpg)

Q


And it's such nice music, too. MI, I would guess?

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Que on April 19, 2011, 12:24:54 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 18, 2011, 12:37:46 PM

And it's such nice music, too. MI, I would guess?

8)

Yes, so it seems.  :) Though De Billy is reportedly New School like Vänskä - HIP influenced and strictly faithfull to the score.

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2011, 12:35:10 PM
Quote from: Que on April 19, 2011, 12:24:54 PM
... Though De Billy is reportedly New School like Vänskä - HIP influenced and strictly faithfull to the score.

Let him be anathema!  :P
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 03:40:24 AM
There needs to be some back-story to this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13493.msg515361.html#msg515361) . . . .

Now that How to Tell is in the can, I have at last been listening (gradually) to the Vermeer Quartet set . . . it's like hearing Beethoven again for the first time (not that I've ever less than loved Beethoven).

Back-back-story: I caught part of a radio broadcast (in hindsight I am guessing a BSO live performance) of the Opus 61, and I happened to have tuned the radio to that dial in (I understood this only in retrospect) during one of the Schnittke cadenze . . . well, that multi-layered dislocation put the cadenze at a disadvantage, and now I am a keen Schnittke enthusiast, and so readier than ever to give those cadenze a fresh go.

So I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Harnoncourt 14-disc-er . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 03:52:41 AM
Or is that cadenza the one that Beethoven did up for the Opus 61a?  In any event, this will be interesting . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2011, 03:54:16 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2011, 03:52:41 AM
Or is that cadenza the one that Beethoven did up for the Opus 61a?  In any event, this will be interesting . . . .

If there were timpani interruptions, it's Beethoven! Having not heard Kremer, I can't tell you, though. Glad you are enjoying your march through the Vermeer set so much - I'm doing the exact same thing, slowly, as a year-long project.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 03:56:01 AM
Did Schnittke really write cadenze for the Beethoven Opus 61, or did I dream it? ; )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 03:59:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 16, 2011, 03:54:16 AM
. . . Glad you are enjoying your march through the Vermeer set so much - I'm doing the exact same thing, slowly, as a year-long project.

We should designate one of them for a week's listening group, what do you say?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on May 16, 2011, 05:31:00 AM
What is the Vermeer Quartet competitive with the Takacs Quartet?  I haven't heard of them before excepting Stuart's posts.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 05:50:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2011, 03:40:24 AMNow that How to Tell is in the can, I have at last been listening (gradually) to the Vermeer Quartet set . . . it's like hearing Beethoven again for the first time (not that I've ever less than loved Beethoven).

Glad you're enjoying, it is really a superb set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on May 16, 2011, 10:38:56 AM
As I'm plowing the Chamber Field @1799-1869, incl. WAM,Schbert,Mendl,Schumnn,Brahms,Dvrk, I'm finding that I'm not all that interested in non-SQ LvB. What gives?

Any particular PT I should retry?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on May 16, 2011, 10:46:29 AM
I'm surprised that you didn't like the Ghost Trio, give that one a try again.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 17, 2011, 12:59:33 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 16, 2011, 10:38:56 AM
Any particular PT I should retry?

Archduke (op. 97).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on May 17, 2011, 05:29:10 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 16, 2011, 10:38:56 AM
Any particular PT I should retry?

Give Op. 1, No. 3 a retry.  Also, not just the Ghost Trio, but both Opus 70 trios.  Also, I find the Variation Trios (I think there are 2 of them) are quite interesting indeed.

Also, the Clarinet Trio transcribed for Piano Trio is great.

The transcriptions of Symphony No. 2 and the Septet for piano trio are also exceptional!   :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lisa needs braces on May 27, 2011, 10:39:25 PM
Most intriguing!

Beethoven's sketches of the first movement of the 9th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEj-_RqpMac

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2011, 06:06:56 AM
Gotta say, I am greatly enjoying the Harnoncourt 14-disc box (of course, I'm still making my [spotty] way through).  It may be the last Beethoven symphonies set I buy (something for which I am generally not at all in the market, and for my own characteristic reasons) but this Harnoncourt box, and the Vermeer Quartet box, were significant value added to my library.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on May 30, 2011, 07:06:45 AM
Cool Karl! :)  I was just watching Harnoncourt's Fidelio earlier... :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: not edward on May 30, 2011, 04:11:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2011, 03:56:01 AM
Did Schnittke really write cadenze for the Beethoven Opus 61, or did I dream it? ; )
Yes. Pretty sure both Gidon Kremer and Ruggiero Ricci have recorded Schnittke's cadenzas. They're certainly different (not great sound on these videos).

http://www.youtube.com/v/yGRKUl4TrJU
http://www.youtube.com/v/LdMgTt4D-C8
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on June 05, 2011, 04:28:55 PM
The Opus 67 in this Harnoncourt box rawks!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on June 05, 2011, 04:30:26 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 05, 2011, 04:28:55 PM
The Opus 67 in this Harnoncourt box rawks!

Heck yeah!! :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on June 05, 2011, 10:47:48 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 30, 2011, 06:06:56 AM
Gotta say, I am greatly enjoying the Harnoncourt 14-disc box (of course, I'm still making my [spotty] way through).  It may be the last Beethoven symphonies set I buy (something for which I am generally not at all in the market, and for my own characteristic reasons) but this Harnoncourt box, and the Vermeer Quartet box, were significant value added to my library.

That box is a sum of riches. Harnoncourt's Beethoven cycle has always been a great favourite and Kremer's way with the violin concerto {including Beethoven's superb cadenza for (violin, transcribed), piano & timpani} is very memorable; Aimard's lyrical renditions of the piano concertos are very fine, the triple concerto a hoot, the Missa Solemnis energetic and stately but not overbearing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 03:58:23 AM
Aye, Tasos, this box is a beauty.  Not that my ears have become at all disloyal to the "big band" version of Masur & the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (which, if "big," is hardly Hollywood Production) . . . it's all tasty.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2011, 06:03:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2011, 03:58:23 AM
Aye, Tasos, this box is a beauty.  Not that my ears have become at all disloyal to the "big band" version of Masur & the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (which, if "big," is hardly Hollywood Production) . . . it's all tasty.

It's good to have two contrasting versions.  btw my favorite (I think I already mentioned this before) in the set are the PCs with Aimard. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 06:05:05 AM
I actually started my survey of the box with the pf cti nos. 4 & 5 . . . sweet!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Guido on June 12, 2011, 01:56:48 PM
iTunes informs me that I haven't listened to any Beethoven Late String quartets since late 2009.  :o Remedying that immediately.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on August 30, 2011, 06:28:10 PM
Is it blasphemous for me to say that I find the Allegro con brio of Beethoven's 5th Symphony to be one of my least favorite and least interesting movements of all his symphonies?

Will I be cruxified?   :(
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 06:40:11 PM
I'll just pretend that you said most metal instead of least interesting. 8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on August 30, 2011, 09:05:22 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 30, 2011, 06:28:10 PM
Is it blasphemous for me to say that I find the Allegro con brio of Beethoven's 5th Symphony to be one of my least favorite and least interesting movements of all his symphonies?

Will I be cruxified?   :(

Delusional, maybe. We forgive you. ;D ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2011, 04:19:34 AM
Aye, 'tis but a passing phase, Ray . . . probably we've all had Op.67 overload at one time or another . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Leon on August 31, 2011, 04:55:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 04:19:34 AM
Aye, 'tis but a passing phase, Ray . . . probably we've all had Op.67 overload at one time or another . . . .

I have been listening to LvB5 this month, a lot - going back and playing all my recordings of it.  Funny how that symphony may be a victim of its own success, but in listening to it again after a long hiatus I could not help but be struck by just how great the work is.

:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 31, 2011, 04:58:10 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 30, 2011, 09:05:22 PM
Delusional, maybe. We forgive you. ;D ;)
Outstanding answer! Really good chuckle!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on August 31, 2011, 04:58:25 AM
Quote from: Leon on August 31, 2011, 04:55:35 AM
I have been listening to LvB5 this month, a lot - going back and playing all my recordings of it.  Funny how that symphony may be a victim of its own success, but in listening to it again after a long hiatus I could not help but be struck by just how great the work is.

:)

Agreed!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on August 31, 2011, 05:10:39 AM
When Beethoven's 5th premiered they saw the first mosh pit spontaneously form! ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on August 31, 2011, 05:11:18 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 31, 2011, 04:19:34 AM
Aye, 'tis but a passing phase, Ray . . . probably we've all had Op.67 overload at one time or another . . . .

That covers the least favourite part, but calling it "least interesting", I think, requires a little more justification other than "I've heard it too many times". :) I suppose that, for someone on this side of 1808, the first movement of the Fifth ought to be more interesting than, say, the first movement of the First.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: not edward on August 31, 2011, 06:14:35 AM
I think sometimes all burnout requires is fresh ears, or a fresh approach.

I was very negative about the Eroica for some years; then I heard the (in)famous 1958 VSOO/Scherchen and its extraordinary "whole first movement almost as one phrase" reading (yes, to me that's what's extraordinary about it, *not* the tempo). And it leapt straight back to being one of my favourite symphonies.

I'll admit that I'm probably more than a little burnt out on the Fifth, but I don't think I could ever regard the linking passage between the last two movements as anything other than one of the most extraordinary creations in all of music.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on August 31, 2011, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on August 31, 2011, 05:11:18 AM
That covers the least favourite part, but calling it "least interesting", I think, requires a little more justification other than "I've heard it too many times". :) I suppose that, for someone on this side of 1808, the first movement of the Fifth ought to be more interesting than, say, the first movement of the First.

Well, I do find the 1st movement to be the 'least interesting', for ME.  That requires absolutely no explanation.

Having said this, I love the symphony as a whole, and the fantastic transition from the 3rd to Final movement.

I just don't understand who in the universe decided "OK, we are usuing the first 4 notes of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony as his signature calling card for all the world".  Is it because that is all the 'pop music' people can wrap their puny brains around?

Why not the opening bar to the Hammerklavier Sonata or the opening to String Quartet No. 12?

Who had this boardroom meeting and decided on the opening of Beethoven's 5th as 'the only Beethoven you'll ever need to hear'?   :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 04:24:52 PM
Myself, I think the opening of the 5th is one of the few cases where something is both 'iconic' (in the pop/marketable sense) and genuinely a great cultural artifact. The sheer violence of the first bar (cf. that famous 'end of civilization' quote from its premiere [whose source presently escapes me]), the way it declares its presence, isn't something trivial, or something that easily leaves you - or at least me. And the subsequent exploration, the leonine ferocity of the Battle of the Themes, the unremitting momentum of the structural line from beginning to end, make the movement special to my ears.

I can see (or rather, given my limited knowledge of theory, suspect) that from a purely structuralist point of view, Beethoven did indeed write more interesting opening movements: ones with more 'interlocking parts', as it were, or with more sophisticated counterpoint - see for instance the Hammerklavier. But one may also argue, setting Fate and whatnot aside, that the relative simplicity of that Allegro con brio may be interesting in itself, for how well it works.

Maybe worth another shot, Ray? :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on August 31, 2011, 04:30:33 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 04:24:52 PM
Maybe worth another shot, Ray? :)

OK, let me re-iterate for the 1,000th time.  I love Symphony No. 5 as a whole.  I LOVE IT.  I just don't see why so much focus is put on the opening movement, while the rest of the symphony is so great.  It is such a disservice, because the general public (meaning 90% of all people) will probably never hear more than the opening 4 notes of this wonderful symphony, or only the 1st movement at that.

If you played any other movement of the 5th symphony to the 'pop music' junkies, they'd have no clue what it was or who composed it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 04:38:43 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 31, 2011, 04:30:33 PM
OK, let me re-iterate for the 1,000th time.  I love Symphony No. 5 as a whole.  I LOVE IT.  I just don't see why so much focus is put on the opening movement, while the rest of the symphony is so great.  It is such a disservice, because the general public (meaning 90% of all people) will probably never hear more than the opening 4 notes of this wonderful symphony, or only the 1st movement at that.

If you played any other movement of the 5th symphony to the 'pop music' junkies, they'd have no clue what it was or who composed it.


Easy on the trigger!

Let me re-phrase: maybe the first movement's own, discrete brand of symphonic magic is worth another shot, Ray? :D


Also, it's a first movement whose main theme is in the first bar. That's convenient for sharing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 31, 2011, 07:35:39 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 04:38:43 PM
Also, it's a first movement whose main theme is in the first bar.

Not quite. As Sir Donald Tovey write, "no great music has ever been built from an initial figure of four notes . . . . The first movement of the C minor symphony is really remarkable for the length of its sentences; the first sentences, instead of being "built up" from a single figure, break up into other sentences of even greater variety and breadth." In other words, this movement is not epigrammatic but rather amazingly organic in its sweep and power. But Beethoven as well was doing something here never yet heard in music: an exceptionally concise treatment of sonata form, at the opposite pole to the exceptionally expansive treatment he demonstrated in the Eroica and the F major Quartet. These extremely concise, taut movements occur sometimes in Beethoven's work but not exclusively; other examples would include the first movements of the F minor quartet and the E minor piano sonata op. 90, as well as the finale of the 8th symphony. But none of these movements demonstrated so strong an obsession with a single motif as the first movement of the 5th.

At the same time, the 5th attempts a new kind of overall coherence that resolves itself only in the triumphant finale. (But not because the dadada dumm repeats throughout the symphony; that just doesn't happen.) In much earlier music, the finale tended to be lighter than the opening movements; often in rondo form or sonata-rondo, it tended to throw the weight of the work towards the first movement. Here however such elements as the drum passage connecting the scherzo to the finale, the return to the scherzo (and please, let's keep that taut, concise movement ABA as was B's final intention, and not ABABA), the expanded orchestration with piccolo, trombones, and contrabassoon, etc. - all these elements tend to throw the weight of the symphony more towards the finale and thus make it overall a more coherent, ending-oriented progression of emotions than had yet appeared in absolute music. These tendencies, along with the progression from the angry, snarling C minor opening to the unalloyed C major triumph, helped give rise to the somewhat overstated but still convincing image of Beethoven as a heroic figure overcoming fate.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 07:45:26 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 31, 2011, 07:35:39 PM
Not quite. As Sir Donald Tovey write, "no great music has ever been built from an initial figure of four notes . . . . The first movement of the C minor symphony is really remarkable for the length of its sentences; the first sentences, instead of being "built up" from a single figure, break up into other sentences of even greater variety and breadth." In other words, this movement is not epigrammatic but rather amazingly organic in its sweep and power. But Beethoven as well was doing something here never yet heard in music: an exceptionally concise treatment of sonata form, at the opposite pole to the exceptionally expansive treatment he demonstrated in the Eroica and the F major Quartet. These extremely concise, taut movements occur sometimes in Beethoven's work but not exclusively; other examples would include the first movements of the F minor quartet, the E minor piano sonata op. 90, and the finale of the 8th symphony. But none of these movements demonstrated so strong an obsession with a single motif as the first movement of the 5th.

At the same time, the 5th attempts a new kind of overall coherence that resolves itself only in the triumphant finale. (But not because the dadada dumm repeats throughout the symphony; that just doesn't happen.) In much earlier music, the finale tended to be lighter than the opening movements; often in rondo form or sonata-rondo, it tended after the entire work was head to throw the weight towards the first movement. Here however such elements as the drum passage connecting the scherzo to the finale, the return to the scherzo (and please, let's keep that taut, concise movement ABA as was B's final intention, and not ABABA), the expanded orchestration with piccolo, trombones, and contrabassoon, etc. - all these elements tend to throw the weight of the symphony more towards the finale and thus make it overall a more coherent progression of emotions than had yet appared in absolute music. These tendencies, along with the progression from the angry, snarling C minor opening to the unalloyed C major triumph, helped give rise to the somewhat overstated but still convincing image of Beethoven as a heroic figure overcoming fate.

I take your point, and thank you for the characteristically knowledgeable analysis. It was that "exceptionally concise treatment of sonata form", that I was trying to offer as a reason to appreciate the 1st movement as a formal entity. :)

Edit: Which of course your analysis illustrates to a considerably more useful extent!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 08:11:32 PM
If it weren't so good, it wouldn't have been able to be turned into a disco song. ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 08:13:05 PM
Does there seem to be a lot of serious, depressing Composers at the top of this 'Composers' section? LvB, Berg, Schnittke, Brucker...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 08:13:42 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 08:13:05 PM
Does there seem to be a lot of serious, depressing Composers at the top of this 'Composers' section? LvB, Berg, Schnittke, Brucker...

:D :D :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on August 31, 2011, 10:45:47 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 08:13:05 PM
Does there seem to be a lot of serious, depressing Composers at the top of this 'Composers' section? LvB, Berg, Schnittke, Brucker...

Yeah, we need something uplifting at the top, like Mahler Mania, Rebooted, or the Snowshoed Sibelius. Oh, wait. ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on September 01, 2011, 12:31:52 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 31, 2011, 11:55:51 AM
Well, I do find the 1st movement to be the 'least interesting', for ME.  That requires absolutely no explanation.

I was not expecting an explanation from you, per se -- I was just pointing out that Karl's 'diagnosis' seemed incomplete.


Quote
I just don't understand who in the universe decided "OK, we are usuing the first 4 notes of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony as his signature calling card for all the world".  Is it because that is all the 'pop music' people can wrap their puny brains around?

Why not the opening bar to the Hammerklavier Sonata or the opening to String Quartet No. 12?

Who had this boardroom meeting and decided on the opening of Beethoven's 5th as 'the only Beethoven you'll ever need to hear'? 

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 31, 2011, 04:30:33 PM
I just don't see why so much focus is put on the opening movement, while the rest of the symphony is so great.  It is such a disservice, because the general public (meaning 90% of all people) will probably never hear more than the opening 4 notes of this wonderful symphony, or only the 1st movement at that.

Now, I'm just confused. How are these two issues even related: that of its inherent 'non-interestingness' (to you) and its popularity among non-classical listeners? [This of course isn't new. Anything (in classical music) that is popular with the 'masses' is generally looked down upon.]


QuoteIf you played any other movement of the 5th symphony to the 'pop music' junkies, they'd have no clue what it was or who composed it.

But if they show any interest at all, the constructive thing to do, then, would be to tell them what it is and who composed it. Simple, really.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2011, 04:22:32 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on August 31, 2011, 08:13:05 PM
Does there seem to be a lot of serious, depressing Composers at the top of this 'Composers' section? LvB, Berg, Schnittke, Brucker...

You find Beethoven depressing? . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2011, 04:23:26 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 31, 2011, 07:35:39 PM
. . . the return to the scherzo (and please, let's keep that taut, concise movement ABA as was B's final intention, and not ABABA) . . . .

Please say more, (poco) Sfz!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2011, 02:40:50 PM
Quote from: edward on August 31, 2011, 06:14:35 AM
I don't think I could ever regard the linking passage between the last two movements as anything other than one of the most extraordinary creations in all of music.


It is.


Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 31, 2011, 07:35:39 PM
Here however such elements as the drum passage connecting the scherzo to the finale, the return to the scherzo (and please, let's keep that taut, concise movement ABA as was B's final intention, and not ABABA)


Yes, please. The repeat takes away the 'shock and awe'.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 03:55:16 PM
I saw this on MDT (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//8501901.htm) earlier, as a future release.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/8501901.jpg)


To begin with, the price is good even for middling performances of the epic amount of content in it.

More so, I recall someone having waxed lyrical about Ms. Biret here in the past. However, I am hugely suspicious over lesser-known pianists who are alleged to 'magically' manifest talent and experience beyond more established artists. The question therefore is, can anyone sell me (and anyone else interested) Idil Biret, as a Beethoven pianist?

I want to like the idea of this set enough to buy it, at £53; but not if it's anything other than exceptional.


Edit: Just to clarify, I'm asking if anyone can cite any recorded examples of her being a great pianist. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 04:01:33 PM
To answer my own question, with apologies for the double post, she seems to have been Wilhelm Kempff's pupil.

That's significant!

Edit: And Cortot? :o
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2011, 04:07:15 PM
Quote from: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 03:55:16 PM
To begin with, the price is good even for middling performances of the epic amount of content in it.

More so, I recall someone having waxed lyrical about Ms. Biret here in the past. However, I am hugely suspicious over lesser-known pianists who are alleged to 'magically' manifest talent and experience beyond more established artists. The question therefore is, can anyone sell me (and anyone else interested) Idil Biret, as a Beethoven pianist?

I want to like the idea of this set enough to buy it, at £53; but not if it's anything other than exceptional.


Edit: Just to clarify, I'm asking if anyone can cite any recorded examples of her being a great pianist. :)

I'm not an expert, but I honestly had no idea Idil Biret was considered a 2nd rate pianist?   The only recording I do have of hers (and really love by the way) is her Chopin Sonatas recording on Naxos.  It won the Grand Prix du Disque Chopin in 1995 (just not sure if that means anything or not?)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mn Dave on September 03, 2011, 04:07:42 PM
Quote from: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 04:01:33 PM
To answer my own question, with apologies for the double post, she seems to have been Wilhelm Kempff's pupil.

That's significant!

Edit: And Cortot? :o

I like some of her Chopin although it's no longer fashionable to do so.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 03, 2011, 04:09:52 PM
I haven't heard any of her Beethoven, but it has gotten tepid reviews here (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=13426) in the USA (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12138). Her playing seemed to draw its highest international acclaim in the 1970s and early 1980s, when she also made some of her best recordings, so check the dates on the sonatas (the concertos are new).

Her Brahms Concerto One is good enough, and the Rachmaninov concerto set (also with Wit) is quite good indeed, but I wasn't thrilled by the Chopin I heard (preludes, concertos, pretty good etudes, and a couple mazurkas only).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2011, 04:13:47 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on September 03, 2011, 04:07:42 PM
I like some of her Chopin although it's no longer fashionable to do so.

;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 06:25:45 PM
Sounds like a case of gifted pianist, great background, hit-and-miss results.

Hm. Thanks for the feedback, folks!


(And I don't think I'd call anyone with her resume second-rate. But there is a difference between an A- and an A+, in my book, and one of the main criteria I'd use to discriminate between them is consistency. Another is reputation*. :) )


*By which I mean she's no Brendel in fame, for example. And I ask myself 'why?'
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2011, 06:40:02 PM
Plus, she was (is) a Naxos artist, so by that definition - it is automatic 2nd rate assumption!!

*chortle*
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on September 03, 2011, 07:00:25 PM
Can anyone recommend recordings for the complete ballet of The Creatures of Prometheus?

Please and thank you.   :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on September 03, 2011, 10:25:56 PM
Quote from: MN Dave on September 03, 2011, 04:07:42 PM
I like some of her Chopin although it's no longer fashionable to do so.

;D ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 04, 2011, 08:44:03 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 06:25:45 PM
But there is a difference between an A- and an A+, in my book, and one of the main criteria I'd use to discriminate between them is consistency. Another is reputation*. :) )

*By which I mean she's no Brendel in fame, for example. And I ask myself 'why?'

There are sound reasons for not following a high-profile music career, a la Brendel, mostly pertaining to a musician's temperament. Living up to expectations can be a beastly thing, just ask Argerich or Van Cliburn, both of whom left the solo concert circuit due to the enormous pressure that followed them wherever they went. Sviatoslav Richter too preferred intimate venues to play in unburdened by high profile scrutiny. All these artists of course are notable for their associated fame but in the end they were simply human and their frailty won out over the jet-set lifestyle. Intimacy then became the name of the game for them.

This poses problems for any artist looking to make a living performing music (and not just classical). Overcoming nerves can be a no-win situation for many which means those so predetermined might not have any choice but to seek out a musical career which caters to a 'slow lane' type of lifestyle. For many this means hanging out on the fringes of the recording/concert circuit with little chance of making worldwide headlines.

The GOOD news is - for performer X and for us as well - worldwide headlines isn't an indication of a performers' worth, as we all surely know, even though life in the slow lane will always be a reality for them. Fortunately there's an outlet for such musicians which can still meet their artistic - and temperamental - needs while at the same time providing the listening public with a generous sampling of their capabilities: the independent labels.

To me there's no greater resource than the independents for outstanding talent. The only thing lacking is the high profile marketing that the "majors" can provide. But many talented musicians thrive in such a low profile setting and it's to our benefit that they have the opportunity to strut their stuff unencumbered by high pressure PR. IOW, we get some great music to listen to!

They may be lesser known amongst the public but their talent wins out all the same. :)


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on September 04, 2011, 03:24:41 PM
Granted, (relative) obscurity can be a lifestyle choice.

However, there were extremely 'frail' famous soloists, who nonetheless performed (Horowitz), or were recalled after they stopped performing (Gould), achieving recognition among the (classical, not 'Vanessa Mae') music-loving public.

My point is, widespread artistic recognition can be a strong predictor for genuine excellence. Same with composers. Indeed, this is the Beethoven thread: Beethoven, who was by all accounts a curmudgeon, a man with flaws, like you say, and all the rest of it. But through his talent and expertise, Beethoven earned himself the recognition we now give him. Conversely, there seems to me to be a fundamental flaw in the kind of thinking that leads people (not saying you) to completely remove recognition from the equation, just because there exist individuals who are genuinely good and not recognised. That's fallacious, albeit in a way that human thinking regularly is (known as 'affirming the consequent').


I haven't claimed anyone said this here, of course. I'm just making a point of asking about a pianist I don't know, who also isn't 'known' in the social sense, a household name, because obscurity is justified more often than not.

Here, maybe it's not. Either way, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2011, 01:16:03 PM
Beethoven is certainly one of the greatest composers ever existed; his music is extremely beautiful, passionate and powerful, especially that one of his late period, it shows a great intellectual depth, a highly expressive and intense personality and finest innovations in formal, structural and harmonical terms (source-motives, chorus in a symphony etc.).
Some of my favourite Beethoven's pieces:

Symphonies No. 3/5/6/7/9
Choral Fantasy
Piano Sonatas, expecially No.8 Pathetique and No. 21 Waldstein
Piano Concertos No.4/5
Cello Sonatas
Violin Sonatas
String Quartets
Triple Concerto op.56
Diabelli Variations

Herbert von Karajan recorded the most beautiful version of Beethoven Symphonies I've ever listened to; the same is true of Vladimir Ashkenazy in both the Piano and Violin/Piano Sonatas (with Perlman).
Instead I think the best version of Triple Concerto is the Richter/Rostopovich/Oistrakh/Karajan.

Ilaria
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 10, 2011, 01:25:29 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2011, 07:00:25 PM
Can anyone recommend recordings for the complete ballet of The Creatures of Prometheus?

Please and thank you.   :)

My favorite, Ray;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeethovenPrometheusMackerrascover.jpg)

As with so many other things, Mackerras, at the time of his death, was the best Beethoven MI interpreter. He wrings the most out of this one. :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on September 10, 2011, 01:43:32 PM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 10, 2011, 01:25:29 PM
My favorite, Ray;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeethovenPrometheusMackerrascover.jpg)

As with so many other things, Mackerras, at the time of his death, was the best Beethoven MI interpreter. He wrings the most out of this one. :)

8)

Alright, thanks Gurn!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2011, 01:55:11 PM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2011, 01:16:03 PM
Beethoven is certainly one of the greatest composers ever existed; his music is extremely beautiful, passionate and involving, especially that one of his late period, it shows a great intellectual depth, a highly expressive and intense personality and finest innovations in formal, structural and harmonical terms (source-motives, chorus in a symphony etc.).
Some of my favourite Beethoven's pieces:

Symphonies No. 3/5/6/7/9
Choral Fantasy
Piano Sonatas, expecially No.8 Pathetique and No. 21 Waldstein
Piano Concertos No.4/5
Cello Sonatas
Violin Sonatas
String Quartets
Triple Concerto op.56
Diabelli Variations

Herbert von Karajan recorded the most beautiful version of Beethoven Symphonies I've ever listened to; the same is true of Vladimir Ashkenazy in both the Piano and Violin/Piano Sonatas (with Perlman).
Instead I think the best version of Triple Concerto is the Richter/Rostopovich/Oistrakh/Karajan.

Ilaria

I can completely agree with you Ilaria! :) Certainly one of the greatest composers ever, and of course one of the most influential. Without Beethoven, it's likely Brahms/Wagner wouldn't have been so great, which would have meant that Strauss/Mahler wouldn't have been so great, which then means Schoenberg (etc) would not have been so great!
Your favourite works of Beethoven are pretty much the same as mine, although I would add the piano sonatas 14, 17, appassionata and 32. :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2011, 01:59:22 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2011, 07:00:25 PM
Can anyone recommend recordings for the complete ballet of The Creatures of Prometheus?

Please and thank you.   :)

Apart from Mackerras & Scottish Chamber Orchestra, you might also try Harnoncourt's version with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe.

Ilaria

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ogMO6a9ZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2011, 02:21:23 PM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 10, 2011, 01:55:11 PM
I can completely agree with you Ilaria! :) Certainly one of the greatest composers ever, and of course one of the most influential. Without Beethoven, it's likely Brahms/Wagner wouldn't have been so great, which would have meant that Strauss/Mahler wouldn't have been so great, which then means Schoenberg (etc) would not have been so great!
Your favourite works of Beethoven are pretty much the same as mine, although I would add the piano sonatas 14, 17, appassionata and 32. :)

Daniel

Definitely agree; what would have Romantic era's musical language and thinking been if Beethoven had never existed?

Well, I love all the piano sonatas; I would have written No.14 Moonlight, 17 The Tempest, 23 appassionata and 32 just after those ones I mentioned, but the list would have been a bit too long.......

Ilaria
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on September 11, 2011, 03:48:56 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 03, 2011, 03:55:16 PM

I want to like the idea of this set enough to buy it, at £53; but not if it's anything other than exceptional.


I own all the contents of this box except the Emperor concerto (and the Choral fantasy). It is a mixed bag and certainly not exceptional.

The Beethoven / Liszt symphonies are deliberate, - played with a kind (of) affection which appeals to me.

The concertos receive unsensational middle of the road performances (conductor Wit is a fine Beethovenian BTW).

The weakest part of the set is the sonatas. I have not heard but about half of the sonatas, but I often get the impression that Biret has got problems with the great lines of the music and with maintenance of the continuity. Whether this is a result of editing or too much spontaneity on the part of Biret, I can not tell,  but she does not really convince me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2011, 04:35:31 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 10, 2011, 02:21:23 PM
Definitely agree; what would have Romantic era's musical language and thinking been if Beethoven had never existed?

Well, I love all the piano sonatas; I would have written No.14 Moonlight, 17 The Tempest, 23 appassionata and 32 just after those ones I mentioned, but the list would have been a bit too long.......

Ilaria

Certainly. I am sure we could have both gone on for a long time writing various other pieces of Beethoven we love! :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 11, 2011, 04:57:12 AM
Quote from: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2011, 04:35:31 AM
Certainly. I am sure we could have both gone on for a long time writing various other pieces of Beethoven we love! :)

Daniel

Hahaha, yes, nice idea :) I'm sure if we had tried to do this, we would still have been here adding pieces on our lists, Beethoven wrote a pile of compositions as high as the ceiling  :)

Ilaria

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 05:28:19 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 11, 2011, 03:48:56 AM
I own all the contents of this box except the Emperor concerto (and the Choral fantasy). It is a mixed bag and certainly not exceptional.

The Beethoven / Liszt symphonies are deliberate, - played with a kind (of) affection which appeals to me.

The concertos receive unsensational middle of the road performances (conductor Wit is a fine Beethovenian BTW).

The weakest part of the set is the sonatas. I have not heard but about half of the sonatas, but I often get the impression that Biret has got problems with the great lines of the music and with maintenance of the continuity. Whether this is a result of editing or too much spontaneity on the part of Biret, I can not tell,  but she does not really convince me.

Many thanks, Premont. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on September 11, 2011, 06:15:51 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 11, 2011, 04:57:12 AM
Hahaha, yes, nice idea :) I'm sure if we had tried to do this, we would still have been here adding pieces on our lists, Beethoven wrote a pile of compositions as high as the ceiling  :)

Ilaria

Being a GMG member, you cannot simply imagine about listing your favourites and leave it at that -- you do it! Day in and day out.

0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 11, 2011, 06:38:42 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on September 11, 2011, 06:15:51 AM
Being a GMG member, you cannot simply imagine about listing your favourites and leave it at that -- you do it! Day in and day out.

0:)

Yes, you're right :)  What I meant before, it's that listing your favourite Beethoven works certainly needs quite a lot of time, just this; Beethoven composed so much music and so many masterpieces!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on September 11, 2011, 06:42:29 AM
Piano Sonata No. 29 in B flat major, Op. 106  "Hammerklavier"
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 11, 2011, 07:35:57 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 11, 2011, 06:42:29 AM
Piano Sonata No. 29 in B flat major, Op. 106  "Hammerklavier"

You're right Ray, how on earth could we leave out the Hammerklavier?!
Daniel
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 12, 2011, 09:00:47 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on September 11, 2011, 03:48:56 AM
The concertos receive unsensational middle of the road performances (conductor Wit is a fine Beethovenian BTW).

Not at all surprised by this. <inserts solicitation to readers to distract everyone from Beethoven by talking about Wit's Schumann>
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Geo Dude on September 19, 2011, 12:59:26 PM
This is a great thread.  Lots of information in it.

That said, recommendations on a favorite sixth symphony?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2011, 04:39:59 AM
I like the one in the second Masur/Gewandhaus Orchester set, and also Abbado/Wiener Philharmoniker
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on September 20, 2011, 11:13:03 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on September 19, 2011, 12:59:26 PM
This is a great thread.  Lots of information in it.

That said, recommendations on a favorite sixth symphony?

For me without any doubts Roy Goodman. Together with 1st and 5th by Huggett it is one of the highlights of The Hanover Band set.

In my second listening I really appreciated final played  by London Classical Players conducted by Roger Norrington - from the set which was for me great disappointment in the first listening.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Geo Dude on September 22, 2011, 03:15:07 PM
Thanks for the recommendations!  The sixth seems to be a hard one to nail properly.  Many of the reviews I see of symphony cycles complain about that one, at least.  (My memory isn't good enough to give my own opinion on the two recordings of the sixth I have on hand, Szell & Karajan's 60s sets.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 22, 2011, 07:27:16 PM
Quote from: Geo Dude on September 22, 2011, 03:15:07 PM
Thanks for the recommendations!  The sixth seems to be a hard one to nail properly.  Many of the reviews I see of symphony cycles complain about that one, at least.  (My memory isn't good enough to give my own opinion on the two recordings of the sixth I have on hand, Szell & Karajan's 60s sets.)

My top two 6ths for great performances and state-of-the-art sound quality are

Big, warm-hearted romantic sound, very slow: Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin
Fleeter, refreshing, more classical-sounding: the Jarvi CD Leon recommends
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on September 22, 2011, 11:04:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 07:27:16 PM
Big, warm-hearted romantic sound, very slow: Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin

I can't see any place for any slowness in Pastorale. How would all this short country folk music motifs work if played slowly?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on September 23, 2011, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on September 22, 2011, 03:15:07 PM
Thanks for the recommendations!  The sixth seems to be a hard one to nail properly.  Many of the reviews I see of symphony cycles complain about that one, at least.  (My memory isn't good enough to give my own opinion on the two recordings of the sixth I have on hand, Szell & Karajan's 60s sets.)

What I can definitely assert with some confidence is that the Karajan 1960s' cycle Pastoral Beethoven 6th is one of the worst symphonic recordings he's ever done, in terms of rendering the music he wanted to perform accurately, or sympathetically.

And to call me a Karajan aficionado would be an understatement, so this is no anti-Karajan propaganda.


Indeed, my personal favourite Beethoven 6th, among the many great versions in the catalogue, is Karajan's last one, from 1984.

However, there really are a number of excellent versions in the catalogue, modern and historical. What kind of 6th would you like?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: bhodges on November 22, 2011, 08:28:45 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on September 19, 2011, 12:59:26 PM
That said, recommendations on a favorite sixth symphony?

If you can stand the boxy sound, this live recording with Carlos Kleiber and the Bavarian State Orchestra is quite good. Incredibly, the recording was made from a cassette from Kleiber's son, who taped the concert in 1983. (Sorry, ASIN link isn't working for this.)

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonie-No-Ludwig-van/dp/B00022XOAO

On a different subject, WQXR hosted 20+ pianists over the weekend to do all of the piano sonatas. They videotaped all of them, and they're available here:

http://www.wqxr.org/#/articles/wqxr-features/2011/nov/21/beethoven-piano-sonata-videos/

--Bruce
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on November 22, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
. <- This 'full stop' seems to take care of the ASIN tags issue.
[asin]B00022XOAO[/asin]

Quote from: Brewski on November 22, 2011, 08:28:45 AM
On a different subject, WQXR hosted 20+ pianists over the weekend to do all of the piano sonatas. They videotaped all of them, and they're available here:

http://www.wqxr.org/#/articles/wqxr-features/2011/nov/21/beethoven-piano-sonata-videos/

--Bruce

Muchas gracias. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: starrynight on November 22, 2011, 10:00:56 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 11, 2011, 06:38:42 AM
Yes, you're right :)  What I meant before, it's that listing your favourite Beethoven works certainly needs quite a lot of time, just this; Beethoven composed so much music and so many masterpieces!  :)

Favourites I think are simply the works that have made a large impression on you in the past.  Doesn't mean others won't eventually attain that level too, or even fall away slightly (while still being greatly liked).

Symphony 6
String Quartet 12 Op127
Piano Sonata 30 op109
Coriolan Overture
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 22, 2011, 10:15:00 AM
Quote from: starrynight on November 22, 2011, 10:00:56 AM
Favourites I think are simply the works that have made a large impression on you in the past.  Doesn't mean others won't eventually attain that level too, or even fall away slightly (while still being greatly liked).

Symphony 6
String Quartet 12 Op127
Piano Sonata 30 op109
Coriolan Overture
Holy cow. Two out of the four are my favorites too (the bolded)! I don't know my favorite string quartet just yet, being relatively new to them. And I've never really focused so much on the overtures, so maybe need to acquire/dig them out (I think I have them all, but just in case - must be ready :)).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: bhodges on November 22, 2011, 12:58:18 PM
Quote from: Opus106 on November 22, 2011, 09:04:57 AM
. <- This 'full stop' seems to take care of the ASIN tags issue.


Thanks, Navneeth - very helpful! (If that was posted elsewhere, I must have missed it.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Leon on December 29, 2011, 08:18:09 AM
I happened to be reading the Wikipedia entry for the "Hammerklavier" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven)) sonata and came across this sentence; which struck me as somewhat ironic:

Even as progressive a musician as Richard Wagner, who appreciated the work and fully admired the late string quartets, held reservations for what he perceived as a lack of succinctness in its composition. (Emphasis mine.)

:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2011, 08:21:41 AM
You can't make this stuff up!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on January 03, 2012, 03:57:03 AM
Quote from: Arnold on December 29, 2011, 08:18:09 AM
I happened to be reading the Wikipedia entry for the "Hammerklavier" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven)) sonata and came across this sentence; which struck me as somewhat ironic:

Even as progressive a musician as Richard Wagner, who appreciated the work and fully admired the late string quartets, held reservations for what he perceived as a lack of succinctness in its composition. (Emphasis mine.)

:)

Hey!  Are you implying Wagner's music is not succinct?   :o

Eduard Hanslick remarked of Meistersaenger that a comic opera that lasted 5 hours became less comic!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 03, 2012, 08:16:48 AM
Quote from: Arnold on December 29, 2011, 08:18:09 AM
I happened to be reading the Wikipedia entry for the "Hammerklavier" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._29_(Beethoven)) sonata and came across this sentence; which struck me as somewhat ironic:

Even as progressive a musician as Richard Wagner, who appreciated the work and fully admired the late string quartets, held reservations for what he perceived as a lack of succinctness in its composition. (Emphasis mine.)

:)
I saw that, too. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: not edward on January 04, 2012, 05:09:38 AM
Naturally there is much amusement to be found in Wagner, of all people, saying this; I'd be interested to see the quote in context, though, as I would have no argument with him if he was merely saying that sheer scale of the slow movement of the Hammerklavier can make it difficult to bring off successfully in performance. (I'm not sure what prominent pianists even played the work regularly in Wagner's lifetime--other than Alkan in his later years, whose concerts were decidedly a small-scale affair, and restricted to Paris.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 04, 2012, 05:18:13 AM
Quote from: Arnold on December 29, 2011, 08:18:09 AM
Even as progressive a musician as Richard Wagner, who appreciated the work and fully admired the late string quartets, held reservations for what he perceived as a lack of succinctness in its composition. (Emphasis mine.)

Maybe Wagner thought of himself as a practitioner of succinctness in music - in which case I wonder how long would the Ring have been had he succumbed to overindulgence.  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on January 04, 2012, 07:10:40 AM
ack :o, the Composer Discussion has been taken over by the Oldies (LvB, Brahms, Brian, Haydn,...)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2012, 09:23:11 AM
So start talking Ottevanger!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 22, 2012, 06:00:16 PM
I've listened to several of Kempff's sonatas, and... okay, they are interesting and very original performances, but I just don't like his way of interpreting. Any specific one I should listen to next out of the collection?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on January 22, 2012, 10:28:34 PM
Quote from: Greg on January 22, 2012, 06:00:16 PM
I've listened to several of Kempff's sonatas, and... okay, they are interesting and very original performances, but I just don't like his way of interpreting. Any specific one I should listen to next out of the collection?

Try op.31/2. I don't like Kempff at all but this one is not so pale.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 23, 2012, 03:41:18 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on January 22, 2012, 10:28:34 PM
Try op.31/2. I don't like Kempff at all but this one is not so pale.
Okay, I'll try that one.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: starrynight on January 24, 2012, 01:57:41 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 04, 2012, 07:10:40 AM
ack :o, the Composer Discussion has been taken over by the Oldies (LvB, Brahms, Brian, Haydn,...)

oldies but goodies :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2012, 12:01:11 PM
Quote from: Greg on January 22, 2012, 06:00:16 PM
I've listened to several of Kempff's sonatas, and... okay, they are interesting and very original performances, but I just don't like his way of interpreting. Any specific one I should listen to next out of the collection?

Op 2/2 for sure. And the Pastoral -- op 28 -- maybe.   And I liked op 26. And Op 110: you may like it -- some people do.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on January 25, 2012, 12:10:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2012, 12:01:11 PM
The Pastoral -- op 28 -- maybe. And Op 2/2. And Op 110: you may like it -- some people do.

I would add op. 78 and op. 90.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ibanezmonster on January 27, 2012, 04:57:28 PM
Okay, cool... I'll keep those in mind when I revisit those sonatas and want to try out Kempff.

Anyone else have the "complete" DG Beethoven set? I see that it's missing a few things, such as WoO 200-201 and some of the arrangements, such as the op.41 piano + flute arrangement of the op.25 Serenade.

Also, what's amusing is how short the songs with the high WoO numbers are. Try WoO 169 or 173. 15 seconds each- Beethoven's grandest and greatest masterpieces!  :o Take that, Webern and Napalm Death!  >:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ataraxia on March 01, 2012, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: Greg on January 27, 2012, 04:57:28 PM
Take that, Webern and Napalm Death!  >:D

LOL.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 12:09:29 PM
Pow!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ataraxia on March 01, 2012, 12:10:14 PM
I don't know why this thread isn't pinned to the top.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 12:11:48 PM
(* ba-ba-ba chortle *)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 02, 2012, 08:25:21 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 01, 2012, 12:10:14 PM
I don't know why this thread isn't pinned to the top.
He's the favorite composer here and between my post and yours, over a month...  ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 08:33:28 AM
One of the times when you know Schroeder is not playing Beethoven.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 09:38:40 AM
Quote from: Greg on March 02, 2012, 08:25:21 AM
He's the favorite composer here and between my post and yours, over a month...  ???

Well, if he is actually everyone's favorite composer (he wins all the polls, after all) then he shouldn't need to be pinned. Just sayin'.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on March 03, 2012, 05:01:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2012, 08:33:28 AM
One of the times when you know Schroeder is not playing Beethoven.

Don't you ever dance to Die Grosse Fuge this way?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2012, 06:17:43 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on March 03, 2012, 05:01:32 AM
Don't you ever dance to Die Grosse Fuge this way?

Yes, Karl, don't you? Even Beethoven (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=G-kVb9xfHVA#t=126s) did. ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Leon on March 05, 2012, 11:12:44 AM
I had forgotten about this disc that had been hiding on my Wish List for months until this weekend:

[asin]B00005A9NX[/asin]

Now the good news is these are first rate performances on period instruments, which has been a rarity for the Beethoven piano trios.  But the news gets even better: judging by how they are labeled, the Castel Trio has recorded the complete piano trios on period instruments:

Pardon the fact that the images do not reproduce but the links will take you to the pages: [fixed!, Que]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71PG1jM%2BAML.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Trios-Volume-Virgin/dp/B00000DP6R/ref=cm_cmu_pg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71Pj8RWwpTL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000DNVW/?tag=goodmusicguideco)


[asin]B0000017S9[/asin]

This would all be good news indeed if not for the fact that most of these appear to be OOP   They are available  from marketplace sellers or, for two of the volumes, as downloads.

The one I bought looks like it may be a reissue, so the others may follow suit - but you never know.

:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ataraxia on March 05, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
Quote from: Greg on March 02, 2012, 08:25:21 AM
He's the favorite composer here and between my post and yours, over a month...  ???

People think it's cool to concentrate on lesser composers to show how "hip" they are.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 11:21:57 AM
 Quote from: MN Dave on Today at 04:16:00 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=12.msg607557#msg607557)
People think it's cool to concentrate on lesser composers to show how "hip" they are.  0:)
 
I'm cryin' some more here.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ataraxia on March 05, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 11:21:57 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on Today at 04:16:00 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=12.msg607557#msg607557)
People think it's cool to concentrate on lesser composers to show how "hip" they are.  0:)
 
I'm cryin' some more here.

;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 11:33:46 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 05, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
People think it's cool to concentrate on lesser composers to show how "hip" they are.  0:)

Rued Langgaard, Albéric Magnard, Franz Schmidt, Fartein Valen, Havergal Brian...I'm just so fucking cool  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 11:35:30 AM
Throw in some Schnittke, Sarge, and you'll get a free beret!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ataraxia on March 05, 2012, 11:35:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 11:33:46 AM
Rued Langgaard, Albéric Magnard, Franz Schmidt, Fartein Valen, Havergal Brian...I'm just so fucking cool  ;D

Are these cities you've visited, Sarge?  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 11:36:26 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 11:35:30 AM
Throw in some Schnittke, Sarge, and you'll get a free beret!

...and a set of bongos?

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ataraxia on March 05, 2012, 11:38:58 AM
(http://www.residentialmarketingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/maynard-g-krebs.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on March 05, 2012, 11:38:58 AM
(http://www.residentialmarketingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/maynard-g-krebs.jpg)

You read my mind  :o  I was just looking for a pic of Maynard  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 11:41:47 AM
No, that's young Schnittke, isn't it?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 11:41:47 AM
No, that's young Schnittke, isn't it?

One and the same? Has anyone ever seen Maynard and Schnittke together? I mean, you know...

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2012, 07:23:06 PM
Query: is there a Beethoven symphonies cycle on period instruments, authentic performances &c which doesn't use the controversial metronome markings?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on June 21, 2012, 07:58:19 PM
Someone said they liked the Beethoven/Liszt version of the 8th Symphony (only) better than the orchestral version. Anyone?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2012, 08:02:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2012, 07:23:06 PM
Query: is there a Beethoven symphonies cycle on period instruments, authentic performances &c which doesn't use the controversial metronome markings?

Metronome markings from the finale of the 9th specifically, or a period performance that uses its own tempos throughout the nine symphonies?

You might have luck with the former, but with the latter, the nature of the instruments themselves (particularly the ability of the strings to sustain notes) means that period performances really do sound better at the faster speeds.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 04:11:39 AM
But: what is controversial about the metronome markings?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2012, 04:17:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 04:11:39 AM
But: what is controversial about the metronome markings?

:o

;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 04:19:07 AM
I mean, do we think that they were not put there by the composer? . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 22, 2012, 05:26:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 04:11:39 AM
But: what is controversial about the metronome markings?

A lot of people think Beethoven's metronome markings are far too fast.

But Beethoven doesn't.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2012, 05:47:22 AM
There you go.  So the controversy is a matter of conductors and orchestras who cannot be bothered to take the composer seriously ; )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on June 22, 2012, 09:31:08 AM
I have been listening to Paavo Jarvi interpretation of symphonies for the first time. I like it. I would say that it is in my Top 3 (with Goodman/Huggett and Kletzki).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on June 22, 2012, 10:46:25 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2012, 07:23:06 PM
Query: is there a Beethoven symphonies cycle on period instruments, authentic performances &c which doesn't use the controversial metronome markings?

How did Hogwood (who I enjoy for the early part of the cycle) roll them out?  I can look at the liner notes later, but someone here may know off the top of their head.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on June 22, 2012, 11:14:43 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 22, 2012, 10:46:25 AM
How did Hogwood (who I enjoy for the early part of the cycle) roll them out?  I can look at the liner notes later, but someone here may know off the top of their head.

I haven't heard it (before just now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nrFLse6Mvew#t=2838s) -- wow!), but given what is usually said about the infamous Turkish march (in the recording), I'd guess they probably were not entirely faithful. :-\
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2012, 03:05:51 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 22, 2012, 04:19:07 AM
I mean, do we think that they were not put there by the composer? . . .

In the early days of looking at them people tried to deny they were by Beethoven, that Beethoven understood what he was doing, that his metronome worked &c &c

Nowadays the orthodoxy is that these markings are to be followed, however, some have questioned whether Beethoven in indicating a speed was always referring the beats, or whether in some cases he was referring to the musical figuration, i.e. in a piece with quaver movement in the first bar indicting a speed for a single quaver, even if the beat consisted of two.

As my question indicated, I am fairly happy with the 'traditional' (i.e. mid C20) tempi, and don't like to listen to performances where the tempi are so fast as to garble the music. I would like to hear a cycle that consisted of performances on period instruments that used the 'traditional' tempi.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: not edward on June 22, 2012, 03:17:05 PM
Quote from: Greg on January 27, 2012, 04:57:28 PM
Take that, Webern and Napalm Death!  >:D
I once knew someone who had been a member of a short-lived (and short-songed) thrash/noise band called Webern Death.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2012, 05:55:15 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2012, 03:05:51 PM
In the early days of looking at them people tried to deny they were by Beethoven, that Beethoven understood what he was doing, that his metronome worked &c &c



Sorry, that Beethoven didn't understand....
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Fafner on July 22, 2012, 06:50:24 PM
Listened today to Beethoven's String Quartet Op 132 (Endellion Quartet).  I think it is becoming one of my favorite works of Beethoven.  Beethoven's late works are characterized by extended slow movements (such as the one in the Hammerklavier Sonata) but I typically find myself getting lost in them.  The central movement of the Op 132 quartet is the exception.  The harmonies that Beethoven creates in the choral-like sections in that movement are nothing short of miraculous. 

If I had to pick a best version of this work, it would probably be the Griller Quartet.  I have it on Decca vinyl, and on CD.

[asin]B00082MXN2[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 26, 2012, 06:46:33 AM
This might seem like an odd question to ask, but...

I've been going through Beethoven's works in opus number order.  And I know that this isn't the same order as composition.  Sometimes things got published quite a while after they were composed.  The first and second piano concertos fall into this category, they are a bit out of order.

But I've just hit opus 32, which is the song 'An Die Hoffnung', and I'm wondering how on earth it got there in the numbering.  On the timeline I'm following it's not going to be written for a couple of years!

Anybody know what happened?

I'm not sure when the opus number system was developed for Beethoven, ie how much of it was contemporaneous and how much was hindsight.  Did someone get the chronology wrong? Did a gap get left at op.32 that needed to be filled?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2012, 08:13:05 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 26, 2012, 06:46:33 AM
This might seem like an odd question to ask, but...

I've been going through Beethoven's works in opus number order.  And I know that this isn't the same order as composition.  Sometimes things got published quite a while after they were composed.  The first and second piano concertos fall into this category, they are a bit out of order.

But I've just hit opus 32, which is the song 'An Die Hoffnung', and I'm wondering how on earth it got there in the numbering.  On the timeline I'm following it's not going to be written for a couple of years!

Anybody know what happened?

I'm not sure when the opus number system was developed for Beethoven, ie how much of it was contemporaneous and how much was hindsight.  Did someone get the chronology wrong? Did a gap get left at op.32 that needed to be filled?

Bia 421    Op 32   Song: "An die Hoffnung"; from Tiedge's "Urania"; "Die du so gern in heilgen Nächten feierst" (1st setting)   1804 - 1805   Dedicated to Countess Josephine Deym (née Brunsvik); words: Christoph August Tiedge; 2nd setiing is Opus 94

According to Biamonte, who is pretty accurate about these things, this was the first piece that Beethoven wrote after the Appassionata Sonata. So, your questions are certainly legitimate, or at least the one about 'what happened to Op 32 originally?' certainly is.  Since I hadn't noticed this anomaly previously, I haven't researched it yet, but I will, and will get back to you on it ASAP. It is probably something mundane, like a publisher's screw-up, OTOH, it might be a fascinating story of intrigue.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 26, 2012, 06:45:35 PM
Thanks. One can only hope for some intrigue!  ;D

I "read ahead" a bit, right up to the "Kreutzer" violin sonata at opus 47, and was consistently hitting things that were published around the 1802-1804 period.  So it really does look a bit odd to have a song most likely written in early 1805 popping up.


Found out something else interesting as well: I knew the Creatures of Prometheus, op.43 was a bit out of date order, as it was written a few years earlier.  It turns out that the piano arrangement of it was actually labelled as op.24.  But then a stuff-up with the violin sonatas happened - with opuses 23 and 24 being published separately instead of as a pair.  Later on, just the overture of the orchestral version of Creatures of Prometheus was published, as op.43, and that's the number we now use for the whole ballet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2012, 04:01:57 AM
Still slowly wandering through the opuses...

I'm trying to decide which is more astonishing when traversing the works chronologically: the Waldstein sonata, or the Appassionata.  Both of them sound revolutionary.

That 3rd symphony tucked in between them isn't half bad, either...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2012, 06:10:55 PM
Oh. Bringing this thread back up made me realise that I hadn't found an answer to my opus 32 problem yet.

So I e-mailed Professor Barry Cooper.  :D

And he replied!  ;D

'An die Hoffnung' had no opus number when it was originally published.  It was made op.32 when Artaria made a catalogue in 1819, and tried to fill gaps that had been left in the numbering.  It's all in Kinksy's thematic catalogue, apparently...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on October 16, 2012, 07:34:00 PM
Speaking of opus numbers, here's a mild conundrum;
How did a piano sonata (Les Adieux, op. 81a) get stitched together with a sextet for horns and strings (op. 81b) (and which was apparently composed in the 1790s  (at least according to this page I just found;
http://www.henle.de/blog/en/2012/02/06/so-how-much-bass-do-you-want-beethoven's-sextet-op-81b/)

I can understand the sextet being published fifteen years after its composition (and in this case, only the parts were printed;  the actual score was not published until the 1840s);  I'm just curious how two very different works were both assigned Op. 81.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2012, 08:18:06 PM
I always assumed it was different publishers jumping for the same opus number independently, each unaware (or uncaring) that the other was going to print.

You have to bear in mind that at this time, composers not only frequently did deals with publishers on a composition-by-composition basis (or a group of compositions), they could also be doing deals with different firms in Vienna, Paris and London all at once.  One of the reasons we don't really use opus numbers for composers such as Mozart or Haydn is because the same piece might be assigned multiple opus numbers, as different publishers in different cities might completely ignore what anyone else had done and only care about their own 'series'.  With Beethoven the situation is slightly improved, but there's still not that much central coordination because the opus numbers still tend to be assigned on the basis of publication, not on the basis of composition.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Agomongo1235 on October 18, 2012, 12:21:00 PM
Quote from: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"  

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."  

          ~ Gustav Mahler





1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Beethoven.jpg/480px-Beethoven.jpg)


Edit:

(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/bilder/en/portal/kollage_03_koepfe.jpg)

Beethoven Resources:

The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music  (http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven.html)

Beethoven Haus Bonn  (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php//portal_en)

LVBEETHOVEN.COM  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html)

Raptus Association for Music Appreciation site on Beethoven  (http://www.raptusassociation.org/)

Beethoven the Immortal  (http://www.lucare.com/immortal/)

The Beethoven Reference Site  (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/index.php)

One Stop Beethoven Resource  (http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/Your_OneStop_Beethoven_Resource.htm)

All About LvB  (http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony9.html)

Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)
1. Sky rocketing the Classical era in the Romantic

2. His 3rd Symphony is my favorite and I love all his pieces

3. For sure!

4. Karajan's Beethoven 6th recording

5. Romantic because he was the one who transitioned in the Romantic era with his symphonies; his 3rd was the spark and the 5th was the fire
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2012, 07:48:22 AM
Oh my, some more.

http://www.youtube.com/v/JYjqGh6Lof0
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Carnivorous Sheep on December 16, 2012, 01:15:56 AM
Happy birthday to dear Ludwig!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lescamil on December 17, 2012, 08:37:00 AM
Quote from: Carnivorous Sheep on December 16, 2012, 01:15:56 AM
Happy birthday to dear Ludwig!

You mean, happy baptism day! We are not sure what day he was born on. We are only sure what day he was baptized on.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2012, 08:40:32 AM
Quote from: lescamil on December 17, 2012, 08:37:00 AM
You mean, happy baptism day!

Today! Huzzah! ; )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on January 09, 2013, 03:54:13 AM
My 8th Grade Latin students recently completed listening to the Missa Solemnis.  We discussed the way Beethoven handled the Latin text, which they found at times highly eccentric, but so have others.

A little experiment with the work, given that length is one of the eccentricities, was done: I occasionally asked the students to estimate how much time had passed after listening to a section.

The results were fascinating: the Credo is the longest part, coming in at over 17 minutes on my John Eliot Gardiner Archiv CD.

Several of the girls agreed on...5 minutes!   :o    The longest estimate was "10-12" minutes from some of the boys.  They were amazed by the actual length.

I repeated the experiment with the Agnus Dei, which comes in at 13' 30".

Again the lowest was estimate "5 minutes" while the highest was 8.

I did not count an answer of "13 minutes" from one wise guy who had been checking the clock much too openly.   ;D

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2013, 04:25:08 AM
You could continue the experiment with Wagner and you might come with the complete reversal: after 5 minutes they might tell you it's been half an hour.  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 09, 2013, 04:27:25 AM
Reading and perusing many Beethoven biographies and seeing his music manuscripts for his works, a question must be asked:

How on earth could any music publisher decipher his messy chicken scratches?!  :D :o
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2013, 04:28:13 AM
Quote from: Cato on January 09, 2013, 03:54:13 AM
My 8th Grade Latin students recently completed listening to the Missa Solemnis.  We discussed the way Beethoven handled the Latin text, which they found at times highly eccentric, but so have others.

A little experiment with the work, given that length is one of the eccentricities, was done: I occasionally asked the students to estimate how much time had passed after listening to a section.

The results were fascinating: the Credo is the longest part, coming in at over 17 minutes on my John Eliot Gardiner Archiv CD.

Several of the girls agreed on...5 minutes!   :o    The longest estimate was "10-12" minutes from some of the boys.  They were amazed by the actual length.

I repeated the experiment with the Agnus Dei, which comes in at 13' 30".

Again the lowest was estimate "5 minutes" while the highest was 8.

I did not count an answer of "13 minutes" from one wise guy who had been checking the clock much too openly.   ;D

Most interesting. There may be hope for the younger generation yet : )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2013, 04:30:16 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2013, 04:27:25 AM
Reading and perusing many Beethoven biographies and seeing his music manuscripts for his works, a question must be asked:

How on earth could any music publisher decipher his messy chicken scratches?!  :D :o

Hah! Good question: how much Beethoven is really Beethoven and not what the publishers made of the scribblings?  ;D

IIRC the task of preparing them for publishing fell on poor Ries.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2013, 04:33:59 AM
The best education Ries might have wished for ; )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2013, 04:37:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2013, 04:33:59 AM
The best education Ries might have wished for ; )

No doubt and I think he was worthy of it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on January 09, 2013, 08:08:07 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 09, 2013, 04:25:08 AM
You could continue the experiment with Wagner and you might come with the complete reversal: after 5 minutes they might tell you it's been half an hour.  ;D

Wocka Wocka!   ;D

We did discuss the idea of "artistic time" (parallel with "mythic time") and how the great work helps us to eliminate the tick-tocking tyranny of the pendulum and take us to a different realm of consciousness...in this case an illusion of the timelessness of eternity.

Bruckner's Te Deum has had a similar effect on past classes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2013, 08:16:17 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2013, 04:27:25 AM
Reading and perusing many Beethoven biographies and seeing his music manuscripts for his works, a question must be asked:

How on earth could any music publisher decipher his messy chicken scratches?!  :D :o

Actually, literally thousands of music students over the years have mastered them to the point of reading them like a printed score. It's true, they are a challenge at the first, but eventually they yield just like Mayan hieroglyphs. :)

Quote from: Florestan on January 09, 2013, 04:30:16 AM
Hah! Good question: how much Beethoven is really Beethoven and not what the publishers made of the scribblings?  ;D

IIRC the task of preparing them for publishing fell on poor Ries.  :)

Haydn, OTOH, sent in beautifully written out autograph scores to the publishers, and they were engraved with easily as many mistakes as Beethoven's had. He would get so irate that he would refuse to deal with certain publishers for a time. Occupational hazard :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2013, 09:27:57 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2013, 08:16:17 AM
Actually, literally thousands of music students over the years have mastered them to the point of reading them like a printed score. It's true, they are a challenge at the first, but eventually they yield just like Mayan hieroglyphs. :)

Haydn, OTOH, sent in beautifully written out autograph scores to the publishers, and they were engraved with easily as many mistakes as Beethoven's had. He would get so irate that he would refuse to deal with certain publishers for a time. Occupational hazard :)

8)

Most interesting.  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on January 09, 2013, 10:09:15 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 09, 2013, 09:58:44 AM
There is also a question concerning the Hammerklavier Sonata, whether an "A" or "A#" should be played in ms. 224-26 of the first movement.

All very interesting.

That I remember from listening to Schiff's lectures. Of course, with the time limitations and the nature of the lecture itself he did not go into details, except to say that he used to play it one way in his younger days, but is now convinced that it should actually be the other.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2013, 07:00:06 AM
Anyone considering Matthew Guerrieri's book, The First Four Notes: Beethoven's Fifth and the Human Imagination? (Fair disclosure: I am good friends with an old schoolmate of Matthew's.) I see there are already a couple of misguided negative reviews on Amazon.

[asin]0307593282[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2013, 07:27:58 AM
No, eh? ; )

I'll probably take a closer look at the book to-morrow evening.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2013, 08:08:14 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 22, 2013, 07:27:58 AM
No, eh? ; )

I'll probably take a closer look at the book to-morrow evening.

I could see the Gurnatron having a go at that. There really aren't a lot of niches left, are there?  :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2013, 10:29:44 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 22, 2013, 07:27:58 AM
I'll probably take a closer look at the book to-morrow evening.

Read the foreword, and perhaps 10 pp. of the first chapter.  Very promising; that is, I like what I read, without reservation, and will make a point of reading the book in its entirety at some point.

I think that the Amazon dude who found fault with the book for not being a biography of Beethoven, nor ... a musicological analysis of the entire symphony utterly misses the point. Like finding fault with Paris, that it is not Chicago . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2013, 02:05:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 24, 2013, 10:29:44 AM
finding fault with Paris, that it is not Chicago . . . .

Yes, that's stupid but then again the other way around...  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2013, 02:08:09 AM
All right, faulty example, I own that entirely ; )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2013, 02:14:02 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 25, 2013, 02:08:09 AM
All right, faulty example, I own that entirely ; )

Oh no, not at all, the example was good. It's just that the other way around it's not that stupid to me...  ;D :D :P
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 25, 2013, 08:32:35 PM
(http://www.beethovenpianoworks.com/images/purchase_beethoven.jpg)

Wondering if anyone has listened to this CD by the pianist Luisa Guembes-Buchanan (Sonatas 28, 30-32 and Diabelli Variations).

What do people think?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 25, 2013, 08:33:44 PM
Sorry, didn't realise the 'Add to Cart' was part of the image.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on January 25, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 25, 2013, 08:32:35 PM
(http://www.beethovenpianoworks.com/images/purchase_beethoven.jpg)

Wondering if anyone has listened to this CD by the pianist Luisa Guembes-Buchanan (Sonatas 28, 30-32 and Diabelli Variations).

What do people think?
P
She highlights the comedy, buffoonery. There's nothing reverential here. I don't think the interpretations are too workmanlike either. She's often funny and down to earth, though she can be rapt when she wants to be, like in the second half of the arietta, where she achieves a kind of ecstacy I think. There are rubato things going on, she's not at all stiff. The sound, tone, is not burnished: silver, wood and leather rather than chocolate and  gold.  And the textures tend to be pretty transparent and evenly balanced. The timbre is quite distinctive.

She's written about the internal connections between these pieces. She has ideas about Beethoven's music.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 27, 2013, 02:33:11 AM
Thanks Mandryka

Might give that set a whirl.

:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on February 06, 2013, 08:08:22 PM
Not sure if you folks can help me out.  I was listening to Op. 20 (Septet) tonight played by the Wiener Kammerensemble.  It is noted in the booklet to have been recorded in '77 (on the DG label).

[asin]B000001GZH[/asin]

When browsing Amazon I found this one:

[asin]B0000034T6[/asin]

Is this a different recording?  I cannot make out the dating?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on February 07, 2013, 01:33:48 AM
Quote from: Bogey on February 06, 2013, 08:08:22 PM
I cannot make out the dating?

From the back-cover: ℗1993.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on February 07, 2013, 03:12:08 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 07, 2013, 01:33:48 AM
From the back-cover: ℗1993.


Thanks!  The photo on the front looks like it could be a '93 shot.  Maybe they recorded it twice for two different labels.  Now if I could find a copy at a reasonable price. Yikes!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Leo K. on February 08, 2013, 01:22:11 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HPEaEGi%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've kept this CD since 1989, for two reasons. First, it is nostalgia, second, the andante theme is quite moving.

Beethoven's 10th, 1st movement as imagined by Barry Cooper, using sketches from Beethoven's late-period sketchbooks. Barry Cooper, specialist of Beethoven, studied these documents and estimated that the first movement of the symphony could be achieved. Of the 531 bars of the movement, 300 are taken directly from Beethoven's manuscripts.

We hear 2 major sections, the first one will remind you of the "pathetic" piano sonata. It's so beautiful it's worth the price. As a unified piece, rather than the first movement of a nonexistent complete work, Cooper's arrangement is somewhat successful. My only criticism is that the extreme contrast between the central Allegro section and the bracketing Andante parts may have been intended as two separate movements. A slow introductory movement followed by a faster and more energetic one corresponds to other late Beethoven, but reattempted by a musicologist centuries later, interesting, and confirms my theory that a musicologist is actually a conceptual artist. This reconstructon also bears more than a passing resemblance to Brahms' First, which lends an amusing irony to the fact that for many years, Brahms' First was nicknamed "Beethoven's Tenth." The main subject alternates with a haunting G minor second theme, and the development section trails off into The E Flat major Andante theme that brackets the middle storm-like theme, yet the phrasing of the themes suffer somewhat from being reconstructed. They're well written musically and certainly competently played here; still the andante section is so full of beauty. However, the central C minor Allegro is Beethoven at his fiery, intense best. It's a demonic dance in 6/8 time that brings to mind the first movement of his Fifth.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 11, 2013, 06:00:29 PM
And has anyone heard this disk? What's the verdict?

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000W7SB0W/ref=dp_image_z_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 11, 2013, 06:05:36 PM
Can't seem to get that image to show. Oh we'll, it'sMarios Papadopoulos playing the last three piano sonatas.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 11, 2013, 06:32:31 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 11, 2013, 06:05:36 PM
Can't seem to get that image to show. Oh we'll, it'sMarios Papadopoulos playing the last three piano sonatas.
You need to show the image by going into the properties of the image on the listing page (not the photo page you were trying to link) and pasting the URL of that image (like so):
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dwg%2BprjeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You may also want to post this in the sonatas thread.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2013, 03:10:53 PM
Looking for some Pastoral recommendations. I have some good recordings of the 6th but am searching for some more. Perhaps some of you fine Folk could list a few of your favorites and why they are just that.

Thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 13, 2013, 08:17:59 AM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2013, 03:10:53 PM
Looking for some Pastoral recommendations. I have some good recordings of the 6th but am searching for some more. Perhaps some of you fine Folk could list a few of your favorites and why they are just that.

Thanks!  ;D

The live one here is the one I like most:


(http://www.classicalcdreview.com/wmar3.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: NJ Joe on March 13, 2013, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2013, 03:10:53 PM
Looking for some Pastoral recommendations. I have some good recordings of the 6th but am searching for some more. Perhaps some of you fine Folk could list a few of your favorites and why they are just that.

Thanks!  ;D

Hi,

I like Walter's famous Columbia SO recording, Szell, and HvK '77, but generally prefer those with a first movement exposition repeat.

For brisker tempos, Gardiner, Bernstein NY, and Mackerras SCO.  For broader tempos, Harnoncourt and Klemperer.

And for just right:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cJjIKrEML._SY300_.jpg)

I haven't had the chance to evaluate Immerseel or Jarvi yet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 13, 2013, 04:52:12 PM
Thanks, Mandryka and NJ Joe for the replies.   :)

I have the Bernstein NY (Sony) and the Harnoncourt, both excellent. Will have to locate that Bohm disc, seems to always be mentioned as a top 6th, plus a coupling of Schubert's 5th ain't bad either.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on March 14, 2013, 03:54:45 AM
Quote from: NJ Joe on March 13, 2013, 04:47:20 PM
Hi,

I like Walter's famous Columbia SO recording, Szell, and HvK '77, but generally prefer those with a first movement exposition repeat.

For brisker tempos, Gardiner, Bernstein NY, and Mackerras SCO.  For broader tempos, Harnoncourt and Klemperer.


Walter´s CSO recording is one of my favorites.

As to Klemperer I prefer his mono recording  for Vox with VSO to the later EMI Philharmonia recording. The former evokes the rural mood of this work in a more convincing way.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2013, 04:45:24 AM
Quote from: NJ Joe on March 13, 2013, 04:47:20 PM
. . . For brisker tempos, Gardiner, Bernstein NY, and Mackerras SCO.  For broader tempos, Harnoncourt and Klemperer.

Considering the variety in the recorded legacy, it's almost as if there had been no metronome in Beethoven's day, isn't it? ; )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 14, 2013, 05:03:12 AM
One important thing for me is that the symphony takes on the feeling of a spiritual journey.  You have that in the live Mengelberg and maybe most of all in a recording I have with Takashi Asahina. Herman Scherchen also recorded a good version of it.

I also remember enjoying Maag and Casals.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on March 14, 2013, 12:19:18 PM
My favorite interpretation is as usual this of Goodman who plays it as if its melodies were folk melodies. If I remember correctly Paavo Jarvi was not bad as well. The last movement is very fine in Norrington first recording.

I think this symphony the kind of treatise considering human, society, nature and God, but being the treatise is not the reason to play folk melodies as if they were not folk melodies. I can't imagine 6th symphony played worse that Furtwangler did it in his war recording.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 15, 2013, 07:46:57 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on March 14, 2013, 12:19:18 PM
My favorite interpretation is as usual this of Goodman who plays it as if its melodies were folk melodies. If I remember correctly Paavo Jarvi was not bad as well. The last movement is very fine in Norrington first recording.

I think this symphony the kind of treatise considering human, society, nature and God, but being the treatise is not the reason to play folk melodies as if they were not folk melodies. I can't imagine 6th symphony played worse that Furtwangler did it in his war recording.

Oh but there's a lovely warm one from Furtwangler, 1954 Berlin
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 18, 2013, 04:42:16 PM
Wow, there hasn't been a post in the main Ludwig thread since March 2013?   :o

Listening to these youthful, vibrant works of Beethoven, his 3 Piano Quartets, WoO36.  Not top shelf LVB, but lovely works still, for a 15 year old.  Already in the first quartet, he writes a variation final movement!  Love the opening Adagio movement, and then leading into that raucous 2nd mvt.!!  Had not listened to these for some time.

Performance:

Eschenbach, piano
Amadeus Quartet

[asin]B000001GZH[/asin]

Think I'm going to spend some time listening to LVB's piano trios, wind chamber works and other miscellaneous non-string quartet, and non violin sonata works.  :)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 24, 2013, 07:33:14 AM
Listening to this excellent set of string trios.

Trio in E flat, Op. 3
*Serenade in D major, Op. 8
Trio in G major, Op. 9/1
Trio in D major, Op. 9/2
Trio in C minor, Op. 9/3


*The Serenade has a marvelous middle movement Adagio-scherzo, allegro.  A great contrasting movement, and also a great variations 6th movement.

Zurich String Trio

[asin]B0009IW8R6[/asin]

Brilliant Classics
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2013, 06:15:57 AM
I've been listening to the remainder of this set, and some marvelous works and performances.

I'll just list the works I've listened to over the week:

Duo for Two Flutes in G major, WoO26  (lovely, short work.  Paging Karl here!  :))

Six Themes & Variations for Flute and Piano, Op. 105 (of which, a very sublime 4th T&V, named "The Last Rose of Summer")

Ten Themes & Variations for Flute and Piano, Op. 107  (both sets of the T & V for flute and piano are wonderfully varied, gorgeously played.)

Trio for piano, flute & bassoon in G major WoO37 (love it!)

Sonata for horn & piano in F major, Op. 17 (fantastic!)

Sextet for 2 horns, 2 violins, viola and cello in E flat, Op. 81b (a beauty!)

Quintet for piano, horn, clarinet, oboe & bassoon in E flat, Op. 16 (another gem!)

Serenade for flute, violin & viola in D major, Op. 25  (great instrument mix, really enjoy this one)

4 works for Mandolin & piano (WoO43a&b, WoO44a&b)  (perhaps, at least for me, the least interesting works in this box set)

Trio for Clarinet, piano & cello in B flat major, Op. 11 (an early masterpiece, and it is almost equally convincing in the piano trio format)

Septet for violin, viola, cello, double bass, horn, clarinet & bassoon in E flat major, Op. 20 (One of LVB's first 'major greatest hits', very popular in his day.  The original form is much more convincing than the transcription for piano trio.  Nevertheless, it is still highly enjoyable in the piano trio format)

Fugue for String Quintet in D major, Op. 137 (very short, but enjoyable)

Would love to hear people's thoughts on these works?  :)

[asin]B000001GZH[/asin]

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: The new erato on November 29, 2013, 09:46:44 AM
Just send the set to me and I will give you my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2013, 10:20:16 AM
Quote from: The new erato on November 29, 2013, 09:46:44 AM
Just send the set to me and I will give you my opinion.

I would, but I like it.  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2013, 05:15:46 PM
Earlier this afternoon, listened to some of these 'lesser known' string chamber works of Beethoven:

Performed by members of the Hagen Quartet, and Alois Posch on the double bass:

Praeludium and Fugue for 2 violins & cello in E minor, Hess 29 (a splendid piece!)

*Six Minuets for 2 violins & double bass, WoO9
*Six Landler for 2 violins & double bass, WoO15


*Love the texture and sonorities of this chamber combination.  :)

Duo for Viola & Cello in E flat major "Duet with Obbligato Eyeglasses", WoO32 (a piece I've always enjoyed!)  :)

Duo for 2 Violins in A major, WoO34 (way too short!)  ;D
Canon for 2 Violins in A major, WoO35 (way too short!)  :D



[asin]B000001GZH[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on November 29, 2013, 06:22:43 PM
Ray,

The Historical Box in that set and the Piano Works set (has all the non-sonata piano stuff) are two favorites of mine. The wind box and the concerto boxes are lovely too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2013, 06:44:45 PM
Quote from: George on November 29, 2013, 06:22:43 PM
Ray,

The Historical Box in that set and the Piano Works set (has all the non-sonata piano stuff) are two favorites of mine. The wind box and the concerto boxes are lovely too.

Thanks, George.

Cool!  :) I only have the miscellaneous Chamber Music box and the Violin Sonatas box (Argerich/Kremer).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on November 29, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 29, 2013, 06:44:45 PM
Thanks, George.

Cool!  :) I only have the miscellaneous Chamber Music box and the Violin Sonatas box (Argerich/Kremer).

Sorry, I thought you recently got the complete set! That's what I get for sticking my head in a long running thread without reading backwards a bit.  :-[
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on November 29, 2013, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: George on November 29, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
Sorry, I thought you recently got the complete set! That's what I get for sticking my head in a long running thread without reading backwards a bit.  :-[

;D  I wish I had that complete set.   :)  Do you?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on November 29, 2013, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 29, 2013, 06:48:51 PM
;D  I wish I had that complete set.   :)  Do you?

No, I have just the four volumes I mentioned. (I also technically have the Piano Sonata one, as it is the same performances and mastering in the stereo Kempff set.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on November 29, 2013, 11:27:53 PM
Glad you're enjoying those sets, Ray! There are many "wow" moments in obscure Beethoven and those DG Beethoven Edition sets hold many riches. Grab whatever else you may find and enjoy!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2013, 03:38:29 PM
Happy Birthday (today or tomorrow), Herr "Hair" Ludwig!

Listening to The Creatures of Prometheus.  Fantastic!  :)

[asin]B0007XTNZ8[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 17, 2013, 07:11:33 AM
Happy Birthday (today and yesterday), Herr "Hair" Ludwig!  Since it is still not clear whether his birthday was on the 16th or 17th.  Again, listening to this magnificent work.

Listening to The Creatures of Prometheus

[asin]B0007XTNZ8[/asin]

PS - If you enjoy middle period, high horsepower Beethoven, you may just enjoy this work!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on December 17, 2013, 07:11:33 AM
Listening to The Creatures of Prometheus

Good idea, Nut; it's been years since I last listened to that. I'll play it after dinner tonight.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on December 17, 2013, 07:37:16 AM
I'm splitting my traditional nine-symphonies-marathon over two days this year, because I didn't realize it was his birthday yesterday until 2 p.m. But yesterday got in 1-5 and am now working on 6-9!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2013, 07:44:00 AM
I heard 6 and 8 yesterday (Harnoncourt) and was planning on Barenboim's Ninth but ran out of time. I'll try to fit it in after The Creatures.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2013, 07:48:54 AM
A friend emailed this to me yesterday:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/SchroederBeethoven9.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 17, 2013, 08:04:01 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2013, 07:48:54 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/SchroederBeethoven9.jpg)


Completely OT and utterly irrelevant, but as a voracious Peanuts reader in my youth this is the first time in my recollection I've ever seen a Peanut with their back to the reader.

Anyhoo, where were we...oh, yes, Beethoven...

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on December 17, 2013, 08:06:01 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2013, 07:48:54 AM
A friend emailed this to me yesterday:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/SchroederBeethoven9.jpg)


Sarge

Back in the 1950's, I kept wondering about this Bee Thohven because of Peanuts!

Eventually I found out about him!   :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on December 17, 2013, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: ChamberNut on November 18, 2013, 04:42:16 PM

[asin]B000001GZH[/asin]


One of the best sets ever put together, IMO, Ray.

Oh, and here's what is left of the table after catching your post.

(http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/broken-glass-patio-table1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2013, 12:07:19 PM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 18, 2013, 12:52:09 PM
Quote from: Bogey on December 17, 2013, 08:21:45 PM
One of the best sets ever put together, IMO, Ray.

Oh, and here's what is left of the table after catching your post.

(http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/broken-glass-patio-table1.jpg)

Atta boy, Bill!  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 27, 2013, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 25, 2013, 10:14:17 PM
P
She highlights the comedy, buffoonery. There's nothing reverential here. I don't think the interpretations are too workmanlike either. She's often funny and down to earth, though she can be rapt when she wants to be, like in the second half of the arietta, where she achieves a kind of ecstacy I think. There are rubato things going on, she's not at all stiff. The sound, tone, is not burnished: silver, wood and leather rather than chocolate and  gold.  And the textures tend to be pretty transparent and evenly balanced. The timbre is quite distinctive.

She's written about the internal connections between these pieces. She has ideas about Beethoven's music.

This sounded interesting enough, and I found a used copy on Amazon cheap. It's a mixed bag, IMO. She's not unmusical, and she does well in places like the lyrical opening movements of 101 and 109 (though I don't like her choice not to preserve the ties over the barlines in the first movement of 101 - I don't know what's "correct," but the version with ties sounds to me much more pleasing). Her downfall however is technique. The finale of 101, one of the most technically difficult movements in the late sonatas, is taken at a ponderously slow tempo and slow downs even further once she reaches the demanding development section. It's not even at an acceptable professional level of pianism. Basically, the lady don't play the piano too good, and it's no wonder she shied away from including the Hammerklavier.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on December 27, 2013, 10:31:46 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 27, 2013, 10:07:42 AMBasically, the lady don't play the piano too good, and it's no wonder she shied away from including the Hammerklavier.



Ouch.  Not that Ms Guembes-Buchanan was on my to-buy list before, but this flags her as someone to listen to only when all other options have been exhausted.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 10:37:48 AM
In a thread about Beethoven, only when all other options have been exhausted is purely theoretical ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on December 27, 2013, 04:22:52 PM
LvB piano sonatas are like our weather here in Colorado.  Don't like this morning's offerings, wait a few hours for the new.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: xochitl on December 29, 2013, 12:46:51 AM
(http://www.faboverfifty.com/barbaras-blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SCHULZ1.gif)

;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on December 29, 2013, 06:42:30 AM
Quote from: xochitl on December 29, 2013, 12:46:51 AM
(http://www.faboverfifty.com/barbaras-blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SCHULZ1.gif)

;D

Op. 13  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on December 31, 2013, 03:25:53 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on December 29, 2013, 06:42:30 AM
Op. 13  ;D

Yes, this one is a rather pathetic strip.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 06, 2014, 01:36:58 PM
Will be running through the piano sonatas in January:

Beethoven

Sonata in E flat major, Op. 7
Sonata in E major, Op. 14/1
Sonata in G major, Op. 14/2


Barenboim
EMI Classics

[asin]B00000C2KP[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on January 06, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Danny's DG set was my first set of the 32.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 06, 2014, 05:16:24 PM
Quote from: George on January 06, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Danny's DG set was my first set of the 32.

I made my way through it a few months ago and really enjoyed it. Not quite as much as his LvB symphony cycle with the Berliner Staatskapelle, but really enjoyed it. Haven't heard the earlier EMI set that ChamberNut posted.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on January 06, 2014, 05:24:39 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on January 06, 2014, 05:16:24 PM
I made my way through it a few months ago and really enjoyed it. Not quite as much as his LvB symphony cycle with the Berliner Staatskapelle, but really enjoyed it. Haven't heard the earlier EMI set that ChamberNut posted.

Yeah, i enjoy the DG set and sure, his Staatskapelle set of the symphonies is surely better. I also haven't heard the EMI set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 06, 2014, 05:36:31 PM
Quote from: George on January 06, 2014, 05:24:39 PM
Yeah, i enjoy the DG set and sure, his Staatskapelle set of the symphonies is surely better. I also haven't heard the EMI set.

Well who asked you
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 07, 2014, 04:34:27 AM
Quote from: George on January 06, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Danny's DG set was my first set of the 32.

Barenboim's EMI set of Beethoven Piano Sonatas is the only set I have (only set I've ever had of Beethoven's sonatas).

One of my very early classical music purchases.  It is so familiar and comfortable to me.  I just love it.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on January 07, 2014, 08:02:01 AM
Stray comment, after first hearing it last night

Szell's recording of the Fifth (with the Clevelanders) is so headbangingly energetic it deserves its own mosh pit.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on January 07, 2014, 08:06:28 AM
I have heard only violin and cello sonatas and piano trios with Barenboim in CD quality. Of piano sonatas I have heard only some fragments from YouTube.

All it was absolutely dull and absolutely unlistenable. As if the guy played only the notes and not the music. The worst Beethoven I can imagine.

Of course it is my personal taste. But it have almost made me cry that there is somebody who has got only his set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on January 07, 2014, 08:09:00 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on January 07, 2014, 08:06:28 AM
I have heard only violin and cello sonatas and piano trios with Barenboim in CD quality.

Who was the violinist and the cellist?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2014, 08:13:34 AM
Come to think of it, I have Pinchas Zukerman & Daniel Barenboim in four of the vn sonatas:

[asin]B000031W7K[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on January 07, 2014, 08:20:36 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2014, 08:14:23 AM
Barenboim has recorded the complete sonatas three times that I know of: the first set (when he was around 23, I think) is generally considered very good, but a bit over the top in places (certainly not dull) as if he had something to prove.  The middle set, I think, is considered his best, but his most recent complete set, released within the last five years, again I think, might be the one you heard ( I have heard nothing from it).

It's actually the same as the performances on his DVD cycle. 

Quote from: mszczuj on January 07, 2014, 08:06:28 AM
I have heard only violin and cello sonatas and piano trios with Barenboim in CD quality. Of piano sonatas I have heard only some fragments from YouTube.

All it was absolutely dull and absolutely unlistenable. As if the guy played only the notes and not the music. The worst Beethoven I can imagine.

Of course it is my personal taste. But it have almost made me cry that there is somebody who has got only his set.

If it's the cello sonatas with DuPre--yes,  I understand that sentiment, although I wouldn't say they were unlistenable.  Merely dull.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 06, 2014, 01:36:58 PM
Will be running through the piano sonatas in January:
[asin]B00000C2KP[/asin]

Quote from: George on January 06, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Danny's DG set was my first set of the 32.

Mine was the EMI...and still my favorite.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on January 07, 2014, 08:27:37 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
Mine was the EMI...and still my favorite.

Sarge

Of all the Barenboim's or all, period?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:28:04 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 07, 2014, 08:02:01 AM
Stray comment, after first hearing it last night

Szell's recording of the Fifth (with the Clevelanders) is so headbangingly energetic it deserves its own mosh pit.

You're on a roll today, Jeffrey, and deserve more head-banging appreciation from the boys  8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)


Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
Quote from: George on January 07, 2014, 08:27:37 AM
Of all the Barenboim's or all, period?

All, period...although my collection is small compared to the fanatics running around this place  :D  Of the complete or near complete cycles, I own:

ANNIE FISCHER
GULDA
BARENBOIM
HJ LIM
BACKHAUS
GILELS
GOULD
POLLINI



Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on January 07, 2014, 08:33:44 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
All, period...although my collection is small compared to the fanatics running around this place  :D 

(http://widget.uproxx.com/b/3/http://207.199.174.56/img/IubwwRpMCX_oh-no-you-diint.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:37:30 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2014, 08:14:23 AM
Barenboim has recorded the complete sonatas three times that I know of: the first set (when he was around 23, I think) is generally considered very good, but a bit over the top in places (certainly not dull)

I can imagine some other pejorative adjectives being leveled against Barenboim's EMI sonatas but never dull. You're right.


Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:45:53 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2014, 08:37:39 AM
A somewhat uneven collection, with Lim and Gould but no Kempff or Arrau - you might want to expand your sets a bit; or not.

;D

;D :D ;D  ...I like my Beethoven weird   ;)

Actually I have Kempff but it's an LP box and I tend to forget it when listing cycles. His Beethoven doesn't appeal to me anyway. I have Arrau's late Sonatas (and Solomon and Rosen's too).

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 07, 2014, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 07, 2014, 08:20:36 AM
If it's the cello sonatas with DuPre--yes,  I understand that sentiment, although I wouldn't say they were unlistenable.  Merely dull.

Good, then I'll be content to stick with my Rostropovich/Richter, Fournier/Gulda, Perényi/Schiff, Maisky/Argerich, Casals/Horszowski.  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 07, 2014, 11:21:57 AM
By the way, I'm making my way through the Herreweghe symphony cycle right now. I have 5, 8, and 9 left to go. (Two 9's left to go, actually—I plan to listen to his earlier recording on period instruments, too.)

Overall it's a winner. The "Pastorale" was the weakest link so far in my opinion—brisker tempo than I like in the first movement, the balance wasn't quite right in the third (could barely hear the flutes at some key moments, maybe more of a sound-mixing issue than anything else), and not enough "oomph" in the dramatic climax near the end of the finale (cf. Szell's brass surge, Walter's weird dynamic swells that somehow work so well; that said, at least Herreweghe saves something for the climax, unlike some other HIPsters [and Pletnev]). The "Storm" was a highlight.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 11, 2014, 05:46:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:25:22 AM
Mine was the EMI...and still my favorite.

Sarge

Not often we share the same favourite recording, Sarge!  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wakefield on January 11, 2014, 05:58:42 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 07, 2014, 08:20:36 AM
If it's the cello sonatas with DuPre--yes,  I understand that sentiment, although I wouldn't say they were unlistenable.  Merely dull.

[Beethoven's cello sonatas: Barenboim, Du Pré]

From my vantage point this statement is one of the most absurd things that I have read here in the last time.

This set could be a lot of things, but never "dull". Actually, IMO, it's  one of the top three recordings in this repertoire, modern and historical instruments considered.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 11, 2014, 06:07:58 AM
Quote from: Gordo on January 11, 2014, 05:58:42 AM
[Beethoven's cello sonatas: Barenboim, Du Pré]

From my vantage point this statement is one of the most absurd things that I have read here in the last time.

This set could be a lot of things, but never "dull". Actually, IMO, it's  one of the top three recordings in this repertoire, modern and historical instruments considered.

I like it too, Gordo (if it is the live recording of the cello sonatas).  I feel like it is anything but "dull".  The performances highly passionate.

However, my only beef with this recording is the excessive coughing from the audience.   ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wakefield on January 11, 2014, 06:19:21 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 11, 2014, 06:07:58 AM
I like it too, Gordo (if it is the live recording of the cello sonatas).  I feel like it is anything but "dull".  The performances highly passionate.

However, my only beef with this recording is the excessive coughing from the audience.   ;D

Yes, it's that vibrant live recording.

The coughing from the audience is a real problem. Not to me, but other people has mentioned the same.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on January 11, 2014, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: Gordo on January 11, 2014, 06:19:21 AM
Yes, it's that vibrant live recording.

The coughing from the audience is a real problem. Not to me, but other people has mentioned the same.

I've grown accustomed to it obviously, as I frequently listen to those recordings.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 06:54:34 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 14, 2014, 06:10:29 PM
Just bought:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/969/MI0000969928.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://store.universal-music.co.uk/content/ebiz/universalmusic/invt/u./6./S./0028945604527d/0028945604527d_medium.jpg)

I just don't have 'enough' Beethoven in my collection to really amount to anything. I only have a few symphony cycles: Klemperer, Abbado, and 1963 Karajan. I know there's a 1977 Karajan cycle, but I'm much interested in the older Karajan and listening to him in all that digital glory. I listened to a little of Symphony No. 3 on Spotify and it sounded magnificent! As for the PCs, I owned Perhia's cycle, but an unfortunate hot tea spill landed on this box set basically making unplayable. A horrible, and foolish, accident. So in deciding what cycle I wanted to get, this Brendel/Levine/CSO set has long been trailing under my radar, so I figured you just can't go wrong with Brendel in Beethoven so I took a chance here. Looking forward to digging into these two sets.

Can't wait to start my Beethovian journey with Karajan and Brendel/Levine. In the meantime, I'm going to check and see exactly what I have in my collection. I know I do have the afore mentioned cycles.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on January 14, 2014, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:31:24 AM
All, period...although my collection is small compared to the fanatics running around this place  :D  Of the complete or near complete cycles, I own:

ANNIE FISCHER
GULDA
BARENBOIM
HJ LIM
BACKHAUS
GILELS
GOULD
POLLINI

That's a rather distinguished list, but who on earth is HJ Lim?

I have Brendel on modern instruments (and some Kempff late sonatas), Badura-Skoda on period ones, and 10 fingers and an access card that lets me into the university practice rooms, which have always been sufficient; but I also have almost all of the sonatas by Barenboim on LPs, though no idea which of his recordings those are. They're in a box somewhere, as is my turntable, so I can't have a listen for comparison right away. However, unlike some earlier posters I did quite enjoy the Barenboim/Du Pre cello sonatas, so might check them out when I'm reunited with my gear.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 06:37:16 AM
Quote from: amw on January 14, 2014, 09:25:32 PM
That's a rather distinguished list, but who on earth is HJ Lim?

A young South Korean pianist who released a "complete" cycle in 2012 (controversially she left out the Op.49 sonatas...well, a controversy in this forum anyway ;) ) She isn't well thought of here (Brian's Musicweb review is scathing) although a few of us like her. Her interpretations tend toward the manic (sometimes her technical reach exceeds her grasp) but are great fun when listened to in small quantities.

http://www.youtube.com/v/CH19qS0VTNE

[asin]B007OYFCVC[/asin]


Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 15, 2014, 06:38:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 06:37:16 AM(Brian's Musicweb review is scathing) although a few of us like her. Her interpretations tend toward the manic (sometimes her technical reach exceeds her grasp) but are great fun when listened to in small quantities.

And for what it's worth, Todd thought my review was too kind. Your description of manic interpretations that sometimes exceed her own abilities is accurate without being prejudiced, which is admirable.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 15, 2014, 06:38:58 AM
And for what it's worth, Todd thought my review was too kind.

It's true, you did praise a few things, you old softy  :D ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 15, 2014, 06:59:03 AM
"If you can find anything good to say, go ahead and say it."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2014, 07:02:38 AM
I would like to nominate this for the "everybody must own" album of the month. I know I'm a little late getting to it, but by the beard of Zeus this is a great disc. The opening movement of the 8th hits hard right out of the gate and continues like a rocket.


[asin]B000ROALF8[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on January 15, 2014, 07:08:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 06:37:16 AMcontroversially she left out the Op.49 sonatas...well, a controversy in this forum anyway



There's no controversy; she's an immature girl.  Even Sviatoslav Richter recorded them, but Ms Lim cannot be bothered to do so, because, what, she knows more than Richter?



Quote from: Brian on January 15, 2014, 06:38:58 AMAnd for what it's worth, Todd thought my review was too kind.


It is too kind.  I actually did a more thorough write up of her set, and there were a couple good things in her set, but I didn't back up the file and when my old laptop died, I lost it.  I shan't take the time to write on her set again now.  I plan on revisiting it in a few years, maybe longer, at which time maybe I will write more.  Oh, who am I kidding?  For me, the only question is whether she is worse than Anne Oland.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 15, 2014, 11:12:53 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on January 15, 2014, 07:32:25 AM
I agree.  The recording of the 4th and 7th is also good.

I will have to check it out, thanks, S.A.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on January 15, 2014, 11:32:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 15, 2014, 11:28:47 AM
LvB
Overture in C, Die Weihe des Hauses, Op.124
Anima Eterna Orchestra
Immerseel


[asin]B0014WSWTY[/asin]

(A) This is easily the best I have enjoyed this piece; and

(B) In case anyone wondered if LvB was still "Classical," as late as 1822 . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 04:02:03 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 15, 2014, 07:08:22 AM
There's no controversy; she's an immature girl.  Even Sviatoslav Richter recorded them, but Ms Lim cannot be bothered to do so, because, what, she knows more than Richter?

Where is Richter's Beethoven cycle? What did Richter know more than Lim about Beethoven? Was Beethoven not worth Richter's time and effort? Richter couldn't be "bothered" to record a cycle?  ;D

You know exactly why Lim didn't record the op.49s. It has nothing to do with "immaturity." The sonatinas were not meant for publication, they were published against Beethoven's will, and Lim chose to respect the composer's intentions. That stand bothered some here; didn't bother others. Hence, a very minor controversy.

Sarge

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on January 19, 2014, 04:08:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 04:02:03 AM
Where is Richter's Beethoven cycle?

Unfortunately, only in my own private fantasy-land.  :(
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 19, 2014, 07:20:35 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 04:02:03 AM
Where is Richter's Beethoven cycle? What did Richter know more than Lim about Beethoven? Was Beethoven not worth Richter's time and effort? Richter couldn't be "bothered" to record a cycle?  ;D

You know exactly why Lim didn't record the op.49s. It has nothing to do with "immaturity." The sonatinas were not meant for publication, they were published against Beethoven's will, and Lim chose to respect the composer's intentions. That stand bothered some here; didn't bother others. Hence, a very minor controversy.

Sarge

I agree that Lim's decision not to record Op. 49 wasn't "immature," and that she was in fact trying to respect the composer's intentions.

That said, Op. 49 probably was not published against Beethoven's wishes or without his knowledge. This is almost surely a myth.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 08:58:54 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on January 19, 2014, 07:20:35 AM
That said, Op. 49 probably was not published against Beethoven's wishes or without his knowledge. This is almost surely a myth.

Wiki says otherwise. Case closed  :D ;)

Seriously, a myth it may be but a myth that refuses to die. What do you know about the circumstances of their publication? Did Beethoven relent and authorize it? Did he consider them part of the canon (the equal of the other sonatas)? Or were they meant for pedagogic purpose?

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on January 19, 2014, 09:25:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 04:02:03 AMYou know exactly why Lim didn't record the op.49s. It has nothing to do with "immaturity." The sonatinas were not meant for publication, they were published against Beethoven's will, and Lim chose to respect the composer's intentions. That stand bothered some here; didn't bother others. Hence, a very minor controversy.



Lim is young and trying to make a name for herself.  What better way than to stake some type of claim to adhering to the composer's intention?  I don't buy it at all.  She, and/or her management team, almost certainly opted to not record the works as a stunt, as something to make her appear more serious, thoughtful, or whatever.  Far greater pianists have recorded the works, either individually, or as a part of the complete cycle.  Given Lim's playing, and her jibber-jabber liner notes, it is impossible to take seriously the notion that she chose to respect anything by excluding the works.  Kempff, Backhaus, Annie Fischer, Gulda, et al, recorded the works in the context of what is considered the complete cycle.  Lim is not more special or insightful than the dozens of vastly superior artists who recorded the cycle before her, and the dozens of vastly superior artists who will record it after her. 

Also, I must inquire, what were Beethoven's intentions as to his piano sonatas?  Did he intend pianists to perform all of them in sequence at a series of recitals?  I rather thought the concept of the complete sonata cycle started around the time Schnabel recorded them, and it has continued since, and serious artists who set out to record a complete cycle, and call it a complete cycle, record all 32 works.  In this context, Lim cannot be called serious.  I'm not familiar with performance practice in the 19th Century.  How many pianists performed all of the sonatas in a series of recitals? 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 20, 2014, 04:58:23 AM
Wow, thank you very much, aquariuswb. Great to have all the facts injected into the discussion, pretty darn interesting to read in any light, and yet another pretty fascinating example of how much you can do simply by harnessing the power of Google.  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on January 20, 2014, 09:25:35 AM
Apropos op. 49:  Is it possible that we here have one four-movement sonata split into two two-movement sonatinas. The two sonatinas are in the same key and in the G-major sonatina we have a typical first movement (allegro in sonata form) and a possible third movement (menuetto). In the g-minor sonatina we have a slow (second?)movement in minor and typical fourth movement (rondo). Is it a coincidence, that the concluding movement of the g-minor sonata is in G-major? I admit, that these four movements in the strict sequence make up for a somewaht unbalanced work. But this might be the reason why Beethoven did not want it published. And then someone got the nice idea to split it into two sonatinas, and then the musical balance became much better, and Beethoven was persuaded to publish them. Just an idea.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 20, 2014, 10:34:31 AM
That is an interesting idea, premont. I don't think it's "right," considering their slightly differing dates of composition, and there are some letters in which they're mentioned as different works, but it might be an interesting experiment for a pianist to play them together as one "piece" without a pause (or intervening applause).

The minor/major difference in movements is something that Beethoven does in his other minor-key 2-movement sonatas (Opp. 90, 111).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Moonfish on March 26, 2014, 12:03:03 PM
Any recommendations on recordings for the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II?  I am all ears....    ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2014, 12:03:52 PM
I've only heard one, and don't know whether I should recommend it  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Moonfish on March 26, 2014, 12:07:06 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2014, 12:03:52 PM
I've only heard one, and don't know whether I should recommend it  0:)

Awful version?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2014, 12:11:46 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 26, 2014, 12:07:06 PM
Awful version?

Oh, I mustn't seem to suggest so!  I honestly don't recall it.  Let me see if I can find it for a fresh listen tonight . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: snyprrr on March 26, 2014, 12:29:14 PM
Oh and look who comes in to break up the Italian Party!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 26, 2014, 12:03:03 PM
Any recommendations on recordings for the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II?  I am all ears....    ;D

I like the version of the Corydon Singers. I believe it's on Hyperion, but I'm not at home to check it out. Very nicely done though. :)

8)

edit: Yes, here it is at Amazon. Christ, the price is through the roof!  :o

[asin]B000002ZY0[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Moonfish on March 26, 2014, 02:19:37 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
I like the version of the Corydon Singers. I believe it's on Hyperion, but I'm not at home to check it out. Very nicely done though. :)

8)

edit: Yes, here it is at Amazon. Christ, the price is through the roof!  :o

[asin]B000002ZY0[/asin]

Thanks Gurn! Yes, a bit on the expensive side...   ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 03:57:19 PM
Quote from: Moonfish on March 26, 2014, 02:19:37 PM
Thanks Gurn! Yes, a bit on the expensive side...   ???

I paid $14 for it. I was still thinking in those terms, I guess. My collection is gaining value every day! :o

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on March 26, 2014, 06:40:58 PM
I have Schippers in this set:
[asin]B0000029YP[/asin]

I wanted to put it on but got distracted by track 1, the Choral Fantasy (Serkin,NYPO,Bernstein). Ormandy's 9th is actually very good and this has it uncut (the Great Performances issues cut out the 2nd movement repeat).

There's a copy for $5.49 right now, which is a good price.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ten thumbs on April 24, 2014, 01:27:09 PM
From The New Yorker February 23, 1839 Vol VI page 538

BEETHOVEN.

A stately and a solemn song,
Such as the evening winds prolong
   In some cathedral aisle,
When holy hope and lofty thought,
From the soul's deep recesses brought,
   Attend the hymn the while.

There mingle with thy glorious strain
No common fancies light and vein ;
   Thy spirit was enshrined
Thy chords were thoughts—thy notes were given
To all that links this earth with heaven,
   Musician of the mind !

L. E. L.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on July 12, 2014, 08:47:48 AM
Listening:  The complete string quartets.

A mixture of performances between the Italiano and the Takacs.

Op. 135 on multiple repeats.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2014, 08:58:42 AM
Anyone got a view on this book?

(http://isbn.abebooks.com/mz/13/25/0253217113.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on July 12, 2014, 09:17:22 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2014, 08:58:42 AM
Anyone got a view on this book?

(http://isbn.abebooks.com/mz/13/25/0253217113.jpg)

Not an easy read, and perhaps a bit heavier on the semiotics jargon than it needs to be, but it's an insightful book. The first chapter on the slow movement of the "Hammerklavier" was eye-opening to me.

You can get a sense for what Hatten's all about here: http://projects.chass.utoronto.ca/semiotics/cyber/hatout.html (links to the 8 lectures are at the top and bottom of the page)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: torut on July 12, 2014, 10:44:02 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
I like the version of the Corydon Singers. I believe it's on Hyperion, but I'm not at home to check it out. Very nicely done though. :)

8)

edit: Yes, here it is at Amazon. Christ, the price is through the roof!  :o

[asin]B000002ZY0[/asin]
I downloaded FLAC from Hyperion site and I am listening to it now. Thank you for your recommendation. Both the composition and the performance are very good.
CD will be reissued in August on Helios.
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55479&vw=dc (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55479&vw=dc)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on July 13, 2014, 06:27:48 AM
Listening to this magnificent disc!

[asin]B0000041MM[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on August 03, 2014, 05:26:18 AM
Very interesting review of the new Jan Swafford book, Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph - 1,077 pages! (book, not the review) in this weekend's WSJ, C5+. "The madder B. got, the more lucid his musical intelligence became..."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on August 03, 2014, 06:35:31 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 13, 2014, 06:27:48 AM
Listening to this magnificent disc!

[asin]B0000041MM[/asin]

Quintessential Beethoven in humble disguise and resplendent performance!

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on August 03, 2014, 06:44:50 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 03, 2014, 06:35:31 AM
Quintessential Beethoven in humble disguise and resplendent performance!

It is magnificent!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on August 03, 2014, 06:48:23 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on August 03, 2014, 06:44:50 AM
It is magnificent!  :)

A desert island disc, no doubt!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: springrite on August 03, 2014, 06:50:06 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
I like the version of the Corydon Singers. I believe it's on Hyperion, but I'm not at home to check it out. Very nicely done though. :)

8)

edit: Yes, here it is at Amazon. Christ, the price is through the roof!  :o

[asin]B000002ZY0[/asin]
I got it at BRO. It is still there.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on August 03, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 03, 2014, 06:48:23 AM
A desert island disc, no doubt!

Agreed. The bagatelles are great, and that Brendel disc is my favorite recording of them. Funny: according to my iTunes play count, it's my most-listened-to Beethoven album.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Uatu on August 06, 2014, 06:16:39 PM
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on August 03, 2014, 05:26:18 AM
Very interesting review of the new Jan Swafford book, Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph - 1,077 pages! (book, not the review) in this weekend's WSJ, C5+. "The madder B. got, the more lucid his musical intelligence became..."

I'm curious if it's necessary to have yet another LvB bio (especially at 1077 pages).  If you've already got the Lockwood, Cooper, Marek (my personal fav) and the Thayer/Forbes bios is this worth reading?  I would really like to have the Thayer updated - that would be really great.

http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/ (http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Uatu on August 06, 2014, 06:26:54 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 15, 2014, 06:37:16 AM
A young South Korean pianist who released a "complete" cycle in 2012 (controversially she left out the Op.49 sonatas...well, a controversy in this forum anyway ;) ) She isn't well thought of here (Brian's Musicweb review is scathing) although a few of us like her. Her interpretations tend toward the manic (sometimes her technical reach exceeds her grasp) but are great fun when listened to in small quantities.

http://www.youtube.com/v/CH19qS0VTNE

[asin]B007OYFCVC[/asin]


Sarge

Oh wow, I've been so out of the Beethoven scene I didn't even know HJ had finished her complete cycle!  The first time I heard her Hammerklavier I was blown away and asked her immediately to record a complete cycle.  I am appalled that she never notified me that she'd done this!  ;)

Reading other comments here it looks like she is a bit controversial.  That's awesome.  Beethoven was considered a total madman on the keys so she's in good company.  Richter and Annie Fischer will probably always be my "definitive" Beethoven piano interpreters but the world needs people like HJ LIm (and Patricia Kopatchinskaja - another young interpreter with similar instincts, except on violin) to keep the music alive.

I'm pretty positive if Beethoven were alive today he'd be playing synthesizers through distortion pedals and giving Stockhausen a run for his money.

Anyways, ordering the Lim cycle posthaste...

http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/ (http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 20, 2014, 01:32:25 PM
Someone has just alerted me to the issue in the 5th symphony, where many conductors take the opening motif and play it as though the first three notes are a triplet on the second beat (da-da-da-dum), instead of quaver rest, quaver, quaver on the second beat, quaver &c (da-DA-da-dum). Can someone point me in the direction of a recording that consistently has the latter accentuation, as I think those I have fall into the former category.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2014, 03:13:21 PM
That's bad.  You want da-da-da-DUM;  and treating the pickup figure as a triplet does risk a sort of DA-da-da-DUM . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 04:22:44 PM
He's saying he wants da-Da-da-DUM.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2014, 04:32:49 PM
Well, but that's not right either;  you don't want to feel that note stronger.  Maybe he wants that; but it's wrong 8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 04:37:06 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 20, 2014, 04:32:49 PM
Well, but that's not right either;  you don't want to feel that note stronger.  Maybe he wants that; but it's wrong 8)

Is it? Why?

The entire point is that the second note is on a beat of the bar, whereas the first and third ones aren't. It's a weaker beat, yes, but it's still a beat. And having 3 undifferentiated notes is more likely to sound like a triplet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2014, 04:42:05 PM
I see your point, and it is debatable.

My feeling is that three undifferentiated notes won't sound like a triplet;  but I know that things sound different to different listeners.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2014, 05:08:00 PM
And here is where, in practice, it becomes wrong, where in theory it seems fine:

You're the conductor. What do you give the orchestra? If you're telling them to play it as a triplet, first, that means that you are giving them a beat, and instructing them to play with you, on that beat. That's metrically wrong, so whatever you're doing, it is NOT establishing the pulse. Second, an orchestra coming in with you, ON a beat (since we're making it a triplet), of COURSE that first note is going to be accented--requiring further time and effort to "fix" that, i.e. train them to do the counter-intuitive, and come in with you ON a beat but WITHOUT any accent...and (again) for a gesture which does not establish the true pulse of the movement.

No, what I would do is give them beat two (which is a rest) and have them play off that given rest. That way, they are mentally feeling the accent (where it belongs) on the rest, and they can play three notes as straight, undifferentiated pickups to the sustained note.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: torut on August 20, 2014, 08:07:35 PM
Anima Eterna / Immerseel and Tonhalle / Zinman are like da-da-da-dum. And I agree that da-Da-da-dum does not sound right. I feel that the first note should be at least as strong as the consecutive notes.

I read an interesting book in which the author claimed that classical music has been basically after beat (the up beats are emphasised as rock or jazz), and the opening motif of Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 is the evidence. Another example is the beginning of Bach's Partita No. 3 in E (BWV 1006). Violinists usually play the up beats stronger, and I feel that is correct.

I had been taught that the down beats should be played stronger in classical music. Does the claim that classical music is after beat have any base? Or, is it just nonsense? If the Symphony is actually played like da-Da-da-dum, do you feel that the first note is the up beat?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on August 20, 2014, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 04:37:06 PM
Is it? Why?

The entire point is that the second note is on a beat of the bar,
no it's not, the beat is the minim (half note) as indicated by B's metronome mark. emphasizing the half-beat too much would create unwanted syncopation

if all three 8ths are played unstressed it will be fine; if slightly more emphasis is placed on the first one it creates the impression of triplets
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 09:41:29 PM
How much is 'too much'?

And whatever it would be, it wouldn't be 'syncopation'.  Syncopation is when the main beats are avoided, not when secondary beats are included.

The point is not that the second quaver needs to be strong, but that if any one of the three quavers should be stronger it's the second one.

I accept that the metronome marking is relevant here, but so is the choice to write the movement in 2/4.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 06:55:53 AM
My school orchestra played it back in the day, so I well know that it's not triplets.

Despite that knowledge, the opening always sounds like triplets to me -- the fermata breaks the pulse. Of course, starting at bar 5 it's clearly not triplets.

I'd be interested to hear it with a slight emphasis on the second note.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 06:58:06 AM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 09:41:29 PM
How much is 'too much'?

Well, it's discussible (as we see);  my sense is that any emphasis on that beat is too much.  (But, you have heard me say that ere now.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 07:09:40 AM
I was just looking at a version of the score. I had thought that perhaps later in the movement, the second quaver might get a little extra rhythmic 'kick' by being coupled with a crotchet-based harmony, but I haven't found any solid evidence of that. It seems that the 3-quaver rhythm is pretty much always presented on its own.

There are a couple of places where crotchet-moving parts coincide with the quaver motto, but it can't fairly be said that the crotchets are trying to support the quavers in any way. If anything, the quavers are superimposing themselves. There isn't much that firmly establishes the movement as being emphatically in 2/4, rather than (as the metronome might suggest), a sort of 1/2.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 21, 2014, 02:06:22 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 07:09:40 AM
I was just looking at a version of the score. I had thought that perhaps later in the movement, the second quaver might get a little extra rhythmic 'kick' by being coupled with a crotchet-based harmony, but I haven't found any solid evidence of that. It seems that the 3-quaver rhythm is pretty much always presented on its own.

There are a couple of places where crotchet-moving parts coincide with the quaver motto, but it can't fairly be said that the crotchets are trying to support the quavers in any way. If anything, the quavers are superimposing themselves. There isn't much that firmly establishes the movement as being emphatically in 2/4, rather than (as the metronome might suggest), a sort of 1/2.

I would say the same thing, i.e., that given the tempo and phrase structure, the meter is more truly 1/2 than 2/4 (conversely, the second movement of the 8th symphony is more truly in 4/8 than 2/4). But those more "oddball" time signatures were not in use in Beethoven's day; nor was something like the 1/1 Borodin used for the Prestissimo scherzo of his 2nd symphony (and which might be suitable for the E major scherzo from Beethoven's Op. 131).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on August 21, 2014, 02:25:03 PM
Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 09:41:29 PM
How much is 'too much'?
Enough to disrupt the sense of forward motion provided by three upbeats.

While Beethoven didn't mark it as such in this case, one must assume the direction "Ritmo di quattro battute" from the scherzo of the 9th is also in force here—and the first bar is undeniably an upbeat.

Quote
I accept that the metronome marking is relevant here, but so is the choice to write the movement in 2/4.
1/2 wasn't considered a valid time signature, at the time, although Beethoven's friend Reicha experimented with unusual time signatures (even then he would write 3/8 + 2/8 where a later composer, Bartók maybe, would have just written 5/8). The first movement of the "Pastoral" symphony is also essentially in 1/2.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on August 21, 2014, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 21, 2014, 02:06:22 PM
I would say the same thing, i.e., that given the tempo and phrase structure, the meter is more truly 1/2 than 2/4 (conversely, the second movement of the 8th symphony is more truly in 4/8 than 2/4). But those more "oddball" time signatures were not in use in Beethoven's day; nor was something like the 1/1 Borodin used for the Prestissimo scherzo of his 2nd symphony (and which might be suitable for the E major scherzo from Beethoven's Op. 131).

Wow; I've never heard of a 1/1 time signature before. What is the practical purpose for composer and conductor? Is this a way of indicating that (as it were) all beats are created equal?

And, thank you for inspiring me to listen to this wonderful symphony for the first time all year.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on August 22, 2014, 03:22:55 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 21, 2014, 04:41:36 PM
Wow; I've never heard of a 1/1 time signature before. What is the practical purpose for composer and conductor? Is this a way of indicating that (as it were) all beats are created equal?

And, thank you for inspiring me to listen to this wonderful symphony for the first time all year.
Yes, Borodin does have 1/1 in the scherzo. It is conducted one-in-a-bar, I imagine (i.e. each bar is a beat).

The 2nd movement of Shostakovich's SQ8 is similar. As fast as it is, the sheet music contains pretty much all quarter notes, half notes, and whole notes. The whole note is 120-ish, I think. I played the chamber orchestra version in high school and the conductor just gave us one-in-a-bar. It was in 2/2, though.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 22, 2014, 06:02:31 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 21, 2014, 04:41:36 PM
Wow; I've never heard of a 1/1 time signature before. What is the practical purpose for composer and conductor? Is this a way of indicating that (as it were) all beats are created equal?

It creates a sense of greater equality for the downbeats at the start of each measure, and helps promote an exceedingly fast tempo, as the conductor will not be indicating two distinct beats per bar.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2014, 06:36:56 PM
Well, I take a sabbatical from listening to numero uno and his name gets relegated to page 5 of the composers' pages.  I see how it is.  Well here's some funnies to bring this page back to the top of the charts:

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdrkyb4HNa1qery84.jpg)  (http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/f9/f9e32e40da0037e26639c4950aff4219d02a642f7893c4472e85fcbf7af4fca0.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqGSHgwmgLkb4HOHF4EEktdAZHVZicngctwrGvLfeaKU-Kb40K)  (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTr0RTp2Gm_7xPE-sLbEiDMW6x2fJ9whKC-dWubIJDx1Dh_jYDbBA)
OK, not Lud, but still:

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1kkk9SXdK1r861j5o1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Just because no-one is posting on this particular thread doesn't mean that people aren't listening to Beethoven or talking about his music on other threads.

Coming on here with a post that says nothing meaningful hardly rectifies whatever situation you appear to have thought was a problem.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on October 07, 2014, 12:21:15 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 06, 2014, 06:36:56 PM
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdrkyb4HNa1qery84.jpg) 

Coolest of the lot.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 03:24:56 AM
Quote from: orfeo on October 07, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Just because no-one is posting on this particular thread doesn't mean that people aren't listening to Beethoven or talking about his music on other threads.

Coming on here with a post that says nothing meaningful hardly rectifies whatever situation you appear to have thought was a problem.
So much for tongue and cheek posts.  Just trying to have a bit of fun and sorry I offended you with the attempt. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Moonfish on October 07, 2014, 03:31:35 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 03:24:56 AM
So much for tongue and cheek posts.  Just trying to have a bit of fun and sorry I offended you with the attempt.

:)

(http://www.wisdomportal.com/SchulzBeethoven/Beethoven(1600x372).jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 03:33:56 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 07, 2014, 03:31:35 AM
:)

(http://www.wisdomportal.com/SchulzBeethoven/Beethoven(1600x372).jpg)

Classic. That one never gets old.  Got to wonder how much Schultz listened to LvB.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2014, 04:14:22 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 03:24:56 AM
So much for tongue and cheek posts.  Just trying to have a bit of fun and sorry I offended you with the attempt.

There's nothing wrong with tongue and cheek. It's the pointless motivation for it that bothered me. Try being witty inside a conversation instead of reviving a thread just for the sake of a "look at me, aren't I funny" moment.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 05:11:11 AM
Good advice and taken.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on October 07, 2014, 05:55:33 AM
Quote from: orfeo on October 07, 2014, 04:14:22 AM
There's nothing wrong with tongue and cheek. It's the pointless motivation for it that bothered me.

If that really bothered you, I imagine life must be incredibly difficult for you.

QuoteTry being witty inside a conversation instead of reviving a thread just for the sake of a "look at me, aren't I funny" moment.

Bogey doesn't need to try anything new, he's fine as he is.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 06:36:05 AM
Thanks, buddy.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 07, 2014, 07:27:53 AM
Like George, I didn't think there was anything wrong with Bogey (Bill's) post.

Humour is always welcome in my world.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 07, 2014, 07:34:41 AM
Well, perhaps I should just disabuse myself of the expectation that when this thread comes up on the unread posts or new replies list, it means there might be something about Beethoven being discussed?

That was the source of the irritation - that instead of Beethoven I got clickbait. But hey, it looks as if we try really hard we could chalk up an entire page of talking about my irritation instead of about Beethoven's music.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on October 07, 2014, 08:06:34 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 07, 2014, 07:27:53 AM
Like George, I didn't think there was anything wrong with Bogey (Bill's) post.

Humour is always welcome in my world.  :)

Your avatar gave you away.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 07, 2014, 08:16:06 AM
Quote from: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 03:24:56 AM
So much for tongue and cheek posts.  Just trying to have a bit of fun and sorry I offended you with the attempt. 

Well, I enjoyed it. Thanks for the laugh, Bill! :)


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 07, 2014, 08:22:38 AM
Quote from: Moonfish on October 07, 2014, 03:31:35 AM
:)

(http://www.wisdomportal.com/SchulzBeethoven/Beethoven(1600x372).jpg)

Just purely as a punchline, I'm trying to imagine if any other composer would've worked in that caption. "Schubert is IT!". "Prokofiev is IT!". "Handel is IT!".

Doubtful......

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on October 07, 2014, 09:08:31 AM
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 07, 2014, 08:22:38 AM
Just purely as a punchline, I'm trying to imagine if any other composer would've worked in that caption. "Schubert is IT!". "Prokofiev is IT!". "Handel is IT!".

Doubtful......

Coke would work.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 07, 2014, 09:16:05 AM
Quote from: George on October 07, 2014, 09:08:31 AM
Coke would work.

;D ;D



(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-z7_Eg-_3BRk/TbKnNtt67jI/AAAAAAAAAhE/pciSLZy0b_w/s1600/CocaColaPoster.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on October 07, 2014, 06:14:35 PM
Anyone here have any LvB under Takashi Asahina?  If so, your thoughts.

(http://www.signum-fotogalerie.at/images/Asahina1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Henk on January 08, 2015, 06:06:36 AM
Interesting article.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-01-beethoven-music-literally-heartfelt-cardiac.html (http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-01-beethoven-music-literally-heartfelt-cardiac.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on January 08, 2015, 06:50:49 AM
I am pretty sure I read the idea connecting the "beklemmt" passage in the middle of the "Cavatina" with heart disease already years ago in an older book on Beethoven, probably Walter Riezler's from ca. 1940.
I don't really see how the horn calls from Les Adieux enter into this context, but the recitative and also the reprise of the "arioso dolente" in op.110 obviously have similarities to the cavatina passages. There are probably a few more. Basically, these seem similar tonal gestures of anguish that will also be found in other music, although Beethoven took it to extremes (as frequently).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 08, 2015, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 08, 2015, 06:50:49 AM
I am pretty sure I read the idea connecting the "beklemmt" passage in the middle of the "Cavatina" with heart disease already years ago in an older book on Beethoven, probably Walter Riezler's from ca. 1940.
I don't really see how the horn calls from Les Adieux enter into this context, but the recitative and also the reprise of the "arioso dolente" in op.110 obviously have similarities to the cavatina passages. There are probably a few more. Basically, these seem similar tonal gestures of anguish that will also be found in other music, although Beethoven took it to extremes (as frequently).

They probably don't mean the opening horn calls of Op. 81a, but rather some of what follows in the slow introduction.

(In any case, the article strikes me as hogwash.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on January 08, 2015, 02:00:24 PM
Also "beklemmt" does not mean "with a heavy heart"
"oppressive" or maybe "constrictive" would be better. The "feeling" associated would not be an aching heart/chest, but a certain tightness, difficulty breathing etc.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2015, 01:25:09 AM
Quote from: aquariuswb on January 08, 2015, 11:41:17 AM
(In any case, the article strikes me as hogwash.)

Yep! It´s from the ongoing series "The British/American researchers discovered recently that [insert hogwash]" ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2015, 09:41:39 AM
Does anyone have a list of books and music in Beethoven's library?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: John Copeland on January 09, 2015, 05:02:41 PM
What is the take on Karl Bohms Beethoven cycle with the VPO?  The more I listen to it (or parts thereov) the more I think it is truly outstanding.  Immense.  Wonderful music making.  It has depth, honesty and a fabulously engaging resonance.  Rising and falling all in the right places.  It's the first Beethoven I reach for these days.   ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on January 09, 2015, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Scots John on January 09, 2015, 05:02:41 PM
What is the take on Karl Bohms Beethoven cycle with the VPO?  The more I listen to it (or parts thereov) the more I think it is truly outstanding.  Immense.  Wonderful music making.  It has depth, honesty and a fabulously engaging resonance.  Rising and falling all in the right places.  It's the first Beethoven I reach for these days.   ;D
I think it is one of the better "old school" cycles, though I actually prefer newer sets like Chailly and Paavo Jarvi.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on January 10, 2015, 12:23:23 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on January 09, 2015, 09:41:39 AM
Does anyone have a list of books and music in Beethoven's library?

I do not, but I think I have seen once a list (or part of) in a biography or so. One thing I remember is that one of Beethoven's favorite novels was Karl Philipp Moritz' "psychological novel" Anton Reiser. Otherwise I guess he had some Goethe, Schiller, Kant, and probably also some translations of older classics. (Not sure whether Beethoven read any language besides German, maybe French, and he certainly had some Italian but overall his education was rather spotty.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Philipp_Moritz
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on January 10, 2015, 03:35:58 AM
Some information you can find here:
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=59114&template=&_mid=59114
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=59120&template=&_mid=59114
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2015, 04:55:37 AM
I asked about Beethoven's library because I want to know what music by CPE Bach he knew. We know from his letters that he was interested in CPEB, liked what he had heard.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on January 10, 2015, 05:01:15 AM
I am not sure if I am speculating or recollecting half-remembered stuff I read some time ago, but Beethoven probably encountered CPE Bach's music for Clavier already as a kid in Bonn via his teacher Neefe. So he could have known quite a bit of it without having it in his library 30+ years later in Vienna.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aquablob on January 11, 2015, 06:24:05 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on January 10, 2015, 05:01:15 AM
I am not sure if I am speculating or recollecting half-remembered stuff I read some time ago, but Beethoven probably encountered CPE Bach's music for Clavier already as a kid in Bonn via his teacher Neefe. So he could have known quite a bit of it without having it in his library 30+ years later in Vienna.

Yes, and see also:


(h/t Warren Kirkendale)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2015, 09:05:37 PM
Quote from: aquariuswb on January 11, 2015, 06:24:05 PM
Yes, and see also:


  • http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=&template=dokseite_digitales_archiv_en&_dokid=ha:wm57&_seite=1 (Morgengesang am Schöpfungstage, manuscript once owned by Brahms)
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=hfFT5p8_qKwC&pg=PA142 (Litanies, W. 204)
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=7e0sAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA160 (W. 49/4/II and 49/5/II)
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=phEUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA388 (Die Israeliten in der Wüste)

(h/t Warren Kirkendale)

Someone told me that Beethoven wrote to CPEB's publisher in 1809 requesting scores, apparenty he said   "Of Emanuel Bach's clavier works I have only a few, yet they must be not only a real delight to every true artist, but also serve him for study purposes; and it is for me a great pleasure to play works that I have never seen, or seldom see, for real art lovers."

That made me wonder if he was aware of the Kenner und Liebhaber sonatas, or whether he only knew of the more conventional stuff. I guess he may have known about music in empfinsamer style from Haydn - from the C minor sonata Hob 16/20. Or indeed from Mozart's K540.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2015, 12:21:47 AM
I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations for recordings of two slightly obscure corners of Beethoven's repertoire.

The first is "string quintets that aren't op.29".  I'm most interested in the op.4 quintet, but not averse to the op.104 arrangement or the op.136 fugue either.  Heck, I'm not that averse to something that includes op.29, even though I've already got a couple of recordings, because it's one of Beethoven's very best works and I can't believe more people aren't in love with it.

The second is the works for piano duet, especially the Sonata op.6 and the Marches op.45 (there are a couple of sets of variations as well EDIT: Oh, and a piano version of the Grosse Fugue!). Recordings seem to be pretty uncommon.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2015, 12:47:11 AM
I only have the Brillant Classics twofer with a Zurich group doing all the String quintets. It seemed serviceable enough but as I do not remember a lot about the Arrangements and shorter works, I cannot be more specific. There are very few recordings of these "secondary quintets" (maybe the Endellion Q have them in their quartets recording because this one has also some fragmentary quartets).

(I do not think I have heard the 4-hand pieces)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on March 05, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
Not to derail the conversation, but I saw the LvB thread rise to the top and it got me thinking.

I need more Beethoven in my life. His music is so elating, yet I know little of it. I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th. I love the Missa Solemnis (favorite), the 5th, 7th, Egmont, and Lenore No. 3 (though I've only heard the latter a few times). I heard a few of the late piano sonatas a couple of months ago (including the Hammerklavier) and really liked them.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2015, 02:42:04 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on March 05, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
Not to derail the conversation, but I saw the LvB thread rise to the top and it got me thinking.

I need more Beethoven in my life. His music is so elating, yet I know little of it. I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th. I love the Missa Solemnis (favorite), the 5th, 7th, Egmont, and Lenore No. 3 (though I've only heard the latter a few times). I heard a few of the late piano sonatas a couple of months ago (including the Hammerklavier) and really liked them.

Feel free to derail. Beethoven is in my top 3 composers (I know, because GMG asked me in a poll and I had to think about it). It really doesn't matter whether you are talking early, middle or late works, the music is excellent and the feeling of those different phases of his career is so different.

This is precisely why I'm burrowing down into corners like op.4 and op.6.  Those are in fact the only 2 out of the first 31 opuses (pretty much the bit before the numbering becomes screwy, on account of Beethoven's growing fame and early works getting published to satisfy the demands of publishers) that I don't have a recording of.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Linus on March 05, 2015, 02:49:40 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on March 05, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th.

(http://i.imgur.com/7xmc9ki.gif)

Seriously though, that's pretty cool, in a weird sort of way. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Linus on March 05, 2015, 02:55:11 AM
BTW, what's the best Beethoven biography?

I've read Beethoven: The Universal Composer by Edmund Morris, and although it wasn't bad, I remember it as having too much a focus on Beethoven's economics than on the music and on his thoughts on art and life in general. Quite a "materialistic" approach for lack of a better term.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2015, 03:39:11 AM
I like Barry Cooper's book. For me it has just the right balance of talking about the music while putting it in a bit of context. There's a dash of musical analysis as well without getting excessively technical.

EDIT: Plus when I emailed him a question, he answered almost right away.  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 05, 2015, 03:48:34 AM
"The revenues from the liquor excise [tax] have suffered a loss in the death of Beethoven." - Archduke Maximilian about death of Beethoven's father.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Linus on March 05, 2015, 04:05:03 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 03:39:11 AM
I like Barry Cooper's book. For me it has just the right balance of talking about the music while putting it in a bit of context. There's a dash of musical analysis as well without getting excessively technical.

EDIT: Plus when I emailed him a question, he answered almost right away.  :D

Thanks for the tip!

I'm curious: what was the question (and answer)? 0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2015, 04:22:21 AM
Quote from: Linus on March 05, 2015, 04:05:03 AM
I'm curious: what was the question (and answer)? 0:)

It was to do with how 'An die Hoffnung' managed to be op.32 when it wasn't written until a couple of years after the works around it. The answer was that some things got stuffed into gaps in the opus numbering when the list was "cleaned up" some years later.

It's odd how Beethoven's numbers make perfect chronological sense in parts, and then - when there's a period where older stuff is being published because he has works in progress and nothing finished - the numbers are no help whatsoever.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2015, 04:43:50 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on March 05, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
Not to derail the conversation, but I saw the LvB thread rise to the top and it got me thinking.

I need more Beethoven in my life. His music is so elating, yet I know little of it. I might be the only GMG'er who has never heard the 9th.
So why don't you just listen to the piece? What's keeping you away? And do not forget the 3rd! And the 4th piano concerto, and...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2015, 04:45:34 AM
Quote from: Linus on March 05, 2015, 02:55:11 AM
BTW, what's the best Beethoven biography?

I have not yet read the recent one by a Dutch author (Caeyers) but Lewis Lockwood's from about 10-12 years ago or so is very readable and has a nice balance between "life" and "works".
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on March 05, 2015, 08:28:01 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 12:21:47 AM
The second is the works for piano duet, especially the Sonata op.6 and the Marches op.45 (there are a couple of sets of variations as well EDIT: Oh, and a piano version of the Grosse Fugue!). Recordings seem to be pretty uncommon.

First recommendation is of course for period instrument:

[asin]B004KDO2WA[/asin]

But I grew up with Demus Shetler Grosse Fuge which is available (with all other 4 hand music) in this box now:

[asin]B000001GZ9[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on March 05, 2015, 08:38:46 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 12:21:47 AM
I'm curious if anyone has any recommendations for recordings of two slightly obscure corners of Beethoven's repertoire.

The first is "string quintets that aren't op.29".  I'm most interested in the op.4 quintet, but not averse to the op.104 arrangement or the op.136 fugue either.  Heck, I'm not that averse to something that includes op.29, even though I've already got a couple of recordings, because it's one of Beethoven's very best works and I can't believe more people aren't in love with it.

I have the Archibudelli recording which is of an anonymous arrangement ("possibly by Beethoven or Ries") of the Kreutzer Sonata. I don't know if that fits the bill of what you're looking for. It's a pretty good arrangement, and I am a fan of Archibudelli's playing in almost everything.

Oh, and the Endellion Quartet cycle includes some of these, but I'm not such a fan of that set. But I should probably give their Quintets another spin.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2015, 12:25:32 PM
Yes, that Kreutzer arrangement is a strange beast. Unfortunately there is no op.29 by Archibudelli, I think. Except for the Zurich group on Brilliant I have 3 recordings of op.29 all of which I like quite well: Budapest Q. from the 1940s, Hausmusik and the Kuijken family ensemble.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on March 05, 2015, 08:28:01 AM
First recommendation is of course for period instrument:

Yes, because why have a perfectly tuned piano when you can have one that always sounds perilously close to honky-tonk...

I'm sorry, but when it comes to period instruments, piano is one I'm just not a fan of.

EDIT: There are rare exceptions where it's tolerable, but I don't think it's going to work for me in 4-hand music.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: North Star on March 05, 2015, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 12:50:02 PMa perfectly tuned piano
A what?  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 05, 2015, 01:05:32 PM
*ignores North Star on purpose*

Funnily enough, I found this recording more tolerable, period piano wise

[asin]B008N66L2Y[/asin]

It still feels though, like their gimmick - of playing everything twice, once on modern piano, once on period piano - is basically a ploy to make everybody part with more money.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on March 05, 2015, 03:03:24 PM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 01:05:32 PM
It still feels though, like their gimmick - of playing everything twice, once on modern piano, once on period piano - is basically a ploy to make everybody part with more money.

I've never heard (or heard of) that Hamann set, but I have heard a couple of period+modern recordings, and not been very impressed by them -- "gimmick" is the right word. And I like the fortepiano much better than you do.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2015, 10:04:30 PM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
Yes, because why have a perfectly tuned piano when you can have one that always sounds perilously close to honky-tonk...

I'm sorry, but when it comes to period instruments, piano is one I'm just not a fan of.

EDIT: There are rare exceptions where it's tolerable, but I don't think it's going to work for me in 4-hand music.

I liked the piano on that recording, which to me sounds almost like woodblocks in the faster music. I got the CD for the op 134 when I was exploring op 130 and op 133.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mszczuj on March 08, 2015, 06:26:15 AM
Quote from: orfeo on March 05, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
I'm sorry, but when it comes to period instruments, piano is one I'm just not a fan of.

I'm so sorry!

Then I must recommend it not because it is PI but despite it is PI.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 10:50:20 AM
Beethoven Question regarding Scherchen:

(http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/06/cd/5789ee6faedf55daf05ea691c299edbd.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518DvpoaqcL.jpg)

I have conflicting information on Scherchen's Beethoven. The Westminster Set contains the complete performances split between only the Vienna State Opera Orchestra (WStOpO) and the would-be LPO? (And which ones by which orchestra?)

But the Tahra differs in adding the VSO 3 and switching RPO for LPO? Or what's the deal? Soloists in the 9th are the same. Or is it simply a misprint on the LP?

And the Archipel set claims what?

Thanks much & best.

Hermann   Scherchen   WStOpO (1,6,7,9), VSO (3), RPO (2,4,5,8)   Magda Laszlo, Hilde Roessel-Majdan, Petre Munteanu, Richard Standen,  Wiener Singakademie   Westminster   Archipel      1951   1954
Hermann   Scherchen   LPO, WStOpO            SAME but gives fewer orchestras and different ones      
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 10, 2015, 02:29:58 PM
I only have the Archipel and no independent source to double check; Archipel does not even tell which orchestra for which  symphony but as recording dates
1 November 54
2 Septemeber 54
3 October 53
4 September 54
5 Septemer 54
6 June 51
7 June 51
8 October 54
9 July 53

But I am pretty sure that this is just the Westminster mono set, so the orchestras will be as you know from the LPs. To my knowledge only the 3rd and 6th were re-recorded in stereo (1958) and there is a bunch of later live? recordings with a Swiss or Italian Radio orchestra
In any case the later (stereo) recordings of the 3rd and 6th are clearly different from the ones in the Archipel set. Stereo and much faster tempi (especially in the respective first movements, both of which are probably the fastest in the catalogue).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 03:07:40 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 10, 2015, 02:29:58 PM
I only have the Archipel and no independent source to double check; Archipel does not even tell which orchestra for which  symphony but as recording dates

Archipel                        Tahra:
1 November 54             x - VStOp, June 54
2 Septemeber 54          x - RPO, September 54
3 October 53                x - VSO (!), January 51
4 September 54           x - RPO, September 54
5 Septemer 54             x - RPO, September 54
6 June 51                     x - VStOp, August 51
7 June 51                     x - VStOp, August 51
8 October 54                x - RPO, September 54
9 July 53                      x - VStOp, September 53

But I am pretty sure that this is just the Westminster mono set, so the orchestras will be as you know from the LPs. To my knowledge only the 3rd and 6th were re-recorded in stereo (1958) and there is a bunch of later live? recordings with a Swiss or Italian Radio orchestra
In any case the later (stereo) recordings of the 3rd and 6th are clearly different from the ones in the Archipel set. Stereo and much faster tempi (especially in the respective first movements, both of which are probably the fastest in the catalogue).

I've found a place (now promptly forgotten, amidst my frantic googling, where the orchestras of the Andromeda are given as the LP says: VStOp & LPO. Archipel, I mean. Well, one of the re-issues.

So the RPO indications of the Tahra releases are just someone who was confused?

Above I compare what the Tahra releases say with what you put down.

Only the 2nd, 4th, and 5th agree on dates. Given that that includes two three of the LPO/RPO performances, we can probably safely assume that Scherchen did not record the same symphony with two London Orchestras in town, twice in one month... and that Thara simply goofed on these indications as per RPO and from thereon extrapolate that they just mixed the orchestras up. No?

The date on the 3rd and the indication of the VSO would indicate a bonafide different performance, I reckon.. and the other dates, which are off by a few months... I'm not sure that I trust people to confuse RPO and LPO to deal with roman numerals. Maybe VII for them was meant to be June?

There's a complete later cycle with the Orchestra della Svizzera Italiana on Arioso from 1965.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on March 10, 2015, 03:45:29 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 05, 2015, 04:43:50 AM
So why don't you just listen to the piece? What's keeping you away? And do not forget the 3rd! And the 4th piano concerto, and...
Haha, you're too practical for me ;D.

I did listen to parts of the 9th on the way home from class today. I started off with Missa Solemnis, but changed my mind. I definitely want to hear the whole thing.

BTW, I do like the 3rd symphony and the 4th PC (and the 5th PC, for that matter).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Drasko on March 10, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 03:07:40 PM
So the RPO indications of the Tahra releases are just someone who was confused?

I think more likely is that Archipel/Andromeda/whicheverpiratenext got confused than Tahra which is run by Myriam Scherchen, Hermann's daughter.

EMI Great Conductors of 20th Century volume devoted to Scherchen names the orchestra for Beethoven's 8th to be Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 04:44:28 PM
Quote from: Drasko on March 10, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
I think more likely is that Archipel/Andromeda/whicheverpiratenext got confused than Tahra which is run by Myriam Scherchen, Hermann's daughter.

EMI Great Conductors of 20th Century volume devoted to Scherchen names the orchestra for Beethoven's 8th to be Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

That's good to know about the EMI. You have a point, with Myriam Scherchen being behind Tahra. Then, rather shocking still, the LP issued by Westminster (as in the picture above) gives the wrong orchestra?! Someone, while translating, goofed?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Drasko on March 10, 2015, 04:54:57 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 04:44:28 PM
Then, rather shocking still, the LP issued by Westminster (as in the picture above) gives the wrong orchestra?! Someone, while translating, goofed?

Not necessarily. Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London is probably just nom-de-plume for RPO recording out of contract.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 05:54:04 PM
Quote from: Drasko on March 10, 2015, 04:54:57 PM
Not necessarily. Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London is probably just nom-de-plume for RPO recording out of contract.

You're absolutely right!

Quote...Westminster's orchestras were Beecham's Royal Philharmonic (without Beecham) - renamed the "Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London" ...

And the dates of Scherchen's recordings are notoriously uncertain; I'd trust Tahra with that, given his daughter's access to sources.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 11, 2015, 12:20:15 AM
I'd also rather trust Tahra.
Archipel is basically a pirate, I think, but it was cheaper and available before the Tahra twofers... It's really a shame that DG has been sitting on the Westminster catalogue, except for a bunch of single discs (and the Scherchen Haydn recordings, event those weren't complete, excluding the sinfonia concertante and the stereo 100). Although the stereo 3 and 6 and the 8 (which was also on EMI great conductors) are the most important ones, I think.

Those strange orchestra names are another puzzle. I am not even sure it is completely clear who played as "Vienna State opera orchestra". It was certainly NOT the Vienna Philharmonic (which is an elite subset from the pool of the state opera players). I think I once read that it actually was the orchestra of the "Volksoper".

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 11, 2015, 12:31:45 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on March 10, 2015, 10:50:20 AM
Beethoven Question regarding Scherchen:

(http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/06/cd/5789ee6faedf55daf05ea691c299edbd.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518DvpoaqcL.jpg)

I have conflicting information on Scherchen's Beethoven. The Westminster Set contains the complete performances split between only the Vienna State Opera Orchestra (WStOpO) and the would-be LPO? (And which ones by which orchestra?)

But the Tahra differs in adding the VSO 3 and switching RPO for LPO? Or what's the deal? Soloists in the 9th are the same. Or is it simply a misprint on the LP?

And the Archipel set claims what?

Thanks much & best.

Hermann   Scherchen   WStOpO (1,6,7,9), VSO (3), RPO (2,4,5,8)   Magda Laszlo, Hilde Roessel-Majdan, Petre Munteanu, Richard Standen,  Wiener Singakademie   Westminster   Archipel      1951   1954
Hermann   Scherchen   LPO, WStOpO            SAME but gives fewer orchestras and different ones

RPO = Royal Philharmonic Orchestra = Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London = London Philharmonic Orchestra = LPO. They must have got the "royal" monica at some point, like the National Theatre and the Festival Hall.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on March 11, 2015, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 11, 2015, 12:31:45 PM
RPO = Royal Philharmonic Orchestra = Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London = London Philharmonic Orchestra = LPO. They must have got the "royal" monica at some point, like the National Theatre and the Festival Hall.

Nononono, the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra is decidedly not identical with the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Two very different orchestras that I've both heard live in their respective venues.

Drasko was right on, with his hunch: "...Westminster's orchestras were Beecham's Royal Philharmonic (without Beecham) - renamed the "Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of London" ..."

Quote from: Jo498 on March 11, 2015, 12:20:15 AM
Those strange orchestra names are another puzzle. I am not even sure it is completely clear who played as "Vienna State opera orchestra". It was certainly NOT the Vienna Philharmonic (which is an elite subset from the pool of the state opera players). I think I once read that it actually was the orchestra of the "Volksoper".

The VStOp-moniker isn't so difficult; after the war the pool of about 200 State Orchestra players served both operas... the Volksoper AND the State Opera. It is indeed doubtful that many of the members included in these recordings are identical with those who were also members of the elect Vienna Philharmonic.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 03, 2015, 10:10:22 AM
Just left the post below in the listening thread (soon to be buried) - so might interest those here who frequent this one - love Crawford's restored 1835 fortepiano - have not done any A-B comparisons w/ my Ronald Brautigam performances of the same works, but some brief comparative comments were made in the Fanfare review contained in the PDF file.

QuoteBeethoven, LV - Piano Sonatas, 78,81a,90,101 - Penelope Crawford's 2nd recording (first one from 2010; current release recorded in 2013 & 2014) - performed on her restored Conrad Graf (Wien, 1835) fortepiano - listening to the first CD now and the performances and sound are pretty much the same, i.e. excellent - I cannot find any reviews of this new release, but there are several in the PDF file attached of the other recording; also if interested, check out this somewhat heated exchange of comments between the colorful and contrarian Bernard Michael O'Hanlon & Peter Watchorn on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/review/RQC193T9G07B5/ref=cm_cr_dp_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B004GV76PQ&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=5174&store=music#wasThisHelpful); BTW, Watchorn wrote the liner notes for this new release which of course is on his label.  Dave :)

P.S. I included a pic of a Conrad Graf fortepiano from the same time period - the image in the booklet showed similar identification detail above the keyboard.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-4kS7d5f/0/S/Beethoven_Crawford2-S.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-MrD4sTm/0/S/Beethoven_LastPS_Crawford-S.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-zvT29z3/0/M/Graf_FortePiano_OrigSize%20copy-M.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-sZJX7mt/0/O/Crawford.Penelope.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on April 28, 2015, 12:07:05 AM
Any other fans of LvB's 8th? I've heard it a few times over the past few days. The finale reminds me a bit of the finale from Schumann's 2nd. I love it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2015, 12:23:22 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on April 28, 2015, 12:07:05 AM
Any other fans of LvB's 8th? I've heard it a few times over the past few days. The finale reminds me a bit of the finale from Schumann's 2nd. I love it.
Igor Stravinsky and I, at least.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on April 28, 2015, 12:29:01 AM
Quote from: North Star on April 28, 2015, 12:23:22 AM
Igor Stravinsky and I, at least.
Was Stravinsky well-known to particularly like it?

I love the sudden key changes in the finale from E to F (the quiet pulsing quarter notes in the lower sections of the orchestra -- happens twice, I think). It sounds too modern for LvB!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 12:33:56 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on April 28, 2015, 12:07:05 AM
Any other fans of LvB's 8th? I've heard it a few times over the past few days. The finale reminds me a bit of the finale from Schumann's 2nd. I love it.

Count me in as well. Sadly underrated (not by Beethoven, though).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2015, 12:40:08 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on April 28, 2015, 12:29:01 AM
Was Stravinsky well-known to particularly like it?

I love the sudden key changes in the finale from E to F (the quiet pulsing quarter notes in the lower sections of the orchestra -- happens twice, I think). It sounds too modern for LvB!
I recall seeing a video where he speaks of it. It was a shortish clip, but possibly from the document below.
On Wikipedia, there's only this: 'Igor Stravinsky praised the "incomparable instrumental thought" shown in Beethoven's orchestration of the trio section.'

https://www.youtube.com/v/FSJQwkBKKBo
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 01:11:20 AM
I think the trio section was partly borrowed from a much earlier piece (do not remember if piano piece or some German Dance or whatever). I also like the symphony a lot.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 28, 2015, 01:35:31 AM
The 8th is awesome. I think the symphony of his I like least is probably no. 4 and it's far from a bad.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on April 28, 2015, 02:13:40 AM
I like all the Beethoven symphonies, but if I had to put them into order...

9 3 8 2 7 4 5 1 6

or maybe 9 3 2 8 4 7 5 1 6

8's in the top... like... five or something though. >.>
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Linus on April 28, 2015, 02:46:54 AM
Quote from: amw on April 28, 2015, 02:13:40 AM
I like all the Beethoven symphonies, but if I had to put them into order...

9 3 8 2 7 4 5 1 6

or maybe 9 3 2 8 4 7 5 1 6

8's in the top... like... five or something though. >.>

What about the individual movements?

There's a top list I'd like to see. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 02:54:42 AM
Quote from: Linus on April 28, 2015, 02:46:54 AM
What about the individual movements?

There's a top list I'd like to see. :)

Start a poll!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 03:42:47 AM
Top individual movements: Eroica, i and 9th, i + iii. Then 7th,i, Eroica, funeral march. Just spontaneously (and I also rate the 9th finale higher than many other listeners although it is so unique that it is very hard to compare it).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on April 28, 2015, 03:51:08 AM
top indiv movements for me in approx order of preference

3/i - 9/iv
7/ii
9/ii - 2/ii - 8/iv
7/iv - 3/ii
9/i
8/ii - 4/iii - 7/i
etc

something like that. The last movement of the 9th is great, fight me

Least favourites are a lot easier to pin down:
1/ii
6/ii
7/iii
5/ii
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 04:18:39 AM
I don't have any non-favorites among the LvB symphony movements.  Is that peculiar of me?  If so, I can live with it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 04:31:07 AM
I certainly will not fight you as I have been defending the finale of the 9th against Philistine criticisms since Louis Spohr (almost). But you seem to rate it even higher than I do.

Least favorites are hard for me. I tend to agree wrt the 2nd movements of the 1st and 6th but I quite like the one from the 5th. And as it's Beethoven I usually like even the stuff I like less still quite a bit..
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jubal Slate on April 28, 2015, 04:54:09 AM
Bah.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on April 28, 2015, 09:43:55 AM
I don't think I can rank the symphonies, much less the movements.

For a while I liked 4-7+9 about equally. But in the case of the 3 and 8, I think part of the problem was the specific recordings I had (Solti 1989 for 3 and Abbado 1987 for 8 ). Bernstein's Eroica lecture probably helped me too. Now 3 is right up there with the others.

But I like 2 and 8 more with each listen. And I should probably listen to 1 more often.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 30, 2015, 03:02:43 AM
Favorite movement? Several likely candidates such as movements I and II from 7th and 6th, movement IV from 5th, II from Eroica and naturally scherzo and  last movement of 9th. But I would probably go with movement IV from Pastoral Symphony.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 01, 2015, 12:02:14 PM
I can rank the Beethoven symphonies in brackets...

Like: 1, 2
Love: 4, 6, 9
Super Ultra Love: 3, 5, 7, 8

Likewise the movements:

Meh: 1/ii
Like: 1/i, iii, iv; 2/iii, iv; 4/ii, iii; 6/ii, 9/iv
Love: all not specified in another category
Super Ultra Love: 3/ii, iii; 4/i; 6/v; 8/ii, iii; 9/i
Maximum Super Mega Favorite: 3/i, iv; 5/i, iii; 7/ii, iv; 8/iv
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 12:07:05 PM
Only I/ii gets a "meh"?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 01, 2015, 12:10:46 PM
Quote from: amw on April 28, 2015, 03:51:08 AM
top indiv movements for me in approx order of preference
3/i  9/iv
7/ii

Bingo

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 01, 2015, 12:15:02 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 12:07:05 PM
Only I/ii gets a "meh"?
I feel bad for singling it out, but is there much in any Beethoven symphony that deserves a "meh"?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 01, 2015, 12:15:02 PM
I feel bad for singling it out, but is there much in any Beethoven symphony that deserves a "meh"?

I have a few "mehs" among the piano sonatas:

Op. 7
Op. 22
Op. 27/1

All rather uninspired in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ken B on May 01, 2015, 02:16:44 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 01, 2015, 12:02:14 PM
I can rank the Beethoven symphonies in brackets...

Like: 1, 2
Love: 4, 6, 9
Super Ultra Love: 3, 5, 7, 8

Likewise the movements:

Meh: 1/ii
Like: 1/i, iii, iv; 2/iii, iv; 4/ii, iii; 6/ii, 9/iv
Love: all not specified in another category
Super Ultra Love: 3/ii, iii; 4/i; 6/v; 8/ii, iii; 9/i
Maximum Super Mega Favorite: 3/i, iv; 5/i, iii; 7/ii, iv; 8/iv

Ranking Beethoven movements?  I have this vision of a future Grandpa Brian, ranking grandchildren ...
;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on May 01, 2015, 02:29:48 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 12:44:00 PM
I have a few "mehs" among the piano sonatas:

Op. 7
Op. 22
Op. 27/1

All rather uninspired in my opinion.

My answer to you is: Meh!  $:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 01, 2015, 06:16:12 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 12:44:00 PM
I have a few "mehs" among the piano sonatas:

Op. 7
Op. 22
Op. 27/1

All rather uninspired in my opinion.
Op. 2/1, Op. 2/3, Op. 49 (both) and the outer movements of Op. 79 are pretty 'meh' imo. I actually like 7 and 27/1 in spite of their obvious flaws; 22 definitely starts out 'meh' although it gets better.

Other Beethoven-missing-the-marks:
the clarinet trio Op. 11
a fair bit of Fidelio
Op. 18/5 and to some extent 4
slow movements of the first two piano concertos
some of the violin sonatas maybe? I don't remember half of them tbh
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 06:27:42 PM
Quote from: amw on May 01, 2015, 06:16:12 PM
Op. 2/1, Op. 2/3, Op. 49 (both) and the outer movements of Op. 79 are pretty 'meh' imo. I actually like 7 and 27/1 in spite of their obvious flaws; 22 definitely starts out 'meh' although it gets better.

Just sticking with the sonatas, I find 2/1 a nice tidy work, weak only in the middle section of the finale where B marks time with that Ab major interlude rather than developing his material. The slow movement is really quite beautiful and B ornaments the main theme exquisitely. The trio of the scherzo in 2/3 is routine, but otherwise this is a nice concerto for solo piano. I give 49 (both) a pass because they're just little sonatinas and don't pretend otherwise; but the opening movement of 79 is quite sophisticated especially rhythmically, much the strongest movement in that piece, and a helluva lot of fun to play especially with all those hand-crossings. The andante though is a nice little pre-Mendelssohnian song without words, the finale is at least short.

27/1 for me is a total dud throughout, by far the weakest of the sonatas. It depresses me just to think of it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 02, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
op.7 is not a big favorite but I like it much more than op.22. IIRC Riezler thinks it is the best from the first 7 sonatas (IMO it is at least a contender although I probably prefer most of op.2 and op.10/3 is far superior)

op.27/1 is for me an interesting but not really successful experiment (but it's closer to "quasi una fantasia" than 27/2). My impression of op.26 is similar. I love the first movement (which is better than anything in op.27/1) but the rest is rather meh and I do not think the whole thing fits plausibly together. Beethoven should have written a few more variations and published it as a variation cycle.

(I dearly love the slow movements from the early piano concertos and the clarinet trio is a fun piece. I also find op.18/5 brilliant although not as good as #1 and #6. My least favorite is #4. Actually, I find even lesser early Beethoven, e.g. the op.3 string trio lots of fun to listen to.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on May 02, 2015, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 01, 2015, 02:29:48 PM
My answer to you is: Meh!  $:)

Agreed.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 05:28:46 AM
I've played op.7 and find the slow movement quite lovely - and also musically quite difficult, as so much of the music is in the silences. The only movement that I think lets it down is the finale, one of Beethoven's early rondos that are just a bit too convivial.

I think op.27/1 is marvellous. Experiment? Yes. Doesn't work? Whaddya talking about?

Of course, the thing with classical music particularly is that so much can depend on the performances/recordings you hear and whether they click for you.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 02, 2015, 05:37:31 AM
Of the similar Rondos in op.2/2, op.7 and op.22 I think op.7 is my favorite (but admittedly they are not always sharply distinguished in my head). In each case the movement fits the rest of the sonata quite well.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 05:50:39 AM
Quote from: orfeo on May 02, 2015, 05:28:46 AM
I've played op.7 and find the slow movement quite lovely - and also musically quite difficult, as so much of the music is in the silences. The only movement that I think lets it down is the finale, one of Beethoven's early rondos that are just a bit too convivial.

I think op.27/1 is marvellous. Experiment? Yes. Doesn't work? Whaddya talking about?

Of course, the thing with classical music particularly is that so much can depend on the performances/recordings you hear and whether they click for you.

I was going to add that the slow movement of 7 is by far my favorite part of that piece, but I don't at all like the last two movements. The opening movement is also extremely fatiguing to play, perhaps part of my reason for disliking it, but I don't really think so. The boogie-woogie variation in 111 is also a killer for the pianist.

As for 27/1, it has nothing to do with performances or recordings but rather the pedestrian phrase structures, perhaps above all in the opening movement.

Jo498 mentioned 26 above, as a work that does not "plausibly fit together." Agreed. The problem is that this is the only sonata, perhaps the only such work in Beethoven's oeuvre, that lacks an anchoring sonata-form movement. It consists of variations, scherzo, funeral march, and rondo finale. Hence it feels more like a suite than a typical Beethoven sonata.

Responses of "meh" and "agreed" without giving any reasons add nothing, IMO.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 06:01:09 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 05:50:39 AM
As for 27/1, it has nothing to do with performances or recordings but rather the pedestrian phrase structures, perhaps above all in the opening movement.

See, I think the pedestrian phrase structures in the first movement are the whole point. It's his joke. The music is so ridiculously well-behaved, then it charges off into C major at speed, then comes back and behaves again.

It's not as if he forgot how to write non-pedestrian phrases all of a sudden. He's writing pedestrian phrases because he wants the opening to sound pedestrian. Not unlike, say, Haydn's "Surprise" which relies on the fact that the audience thinks it knows exactly where the music is going.

And then, after Beethoven has established he's writing safe and boring music, the sonata proceeds to do weird things.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 06:10:51 AM
Quote from: orfeo on May 02, 2015, 06:01:09 AM
See, I think the pedestrian phrase structures in the first movement are the whole point. It's his joke. The music is so ridiculously well-behaved, then it charges off into C major at speed, then comes back and behaves again.

It's not as if he forgot how to write non-pedestrian phrases all of a sudden. He's writing pedestrian phrases because he wants the opening to sound pedestrian. Not unlike, say, Haydn's "Surprise" which relies on the fact that the audience thinks it knows exactly where the music is going.

And then, after Beethoven has established he's writing safe and boring music, the sonata proceeds to do weird things.

Well, that's a clever interpretation, but at least you don't deny the opening is pedestrian. I don't find the C major interlude much more interesting than the opening myself, and I don't think I'm immune to Beethoven's humor (there are more clever harmonic touches in the second movement of the 8th symphony, and as for Haydn, he did many things far more surprising and clever than the familiar movement you mention). Sorry if you haven't rescued 27/1 for me (and note we're no longer talking about performances or recordings), but your description I think would better suit op. 54, perhaps the weirdest sonata of the lot, and one which I didn't include in my short list of "mehs."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 06:38:14 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 06:10:51 AM
Well, that's a clever interpretation, but at least you don't deny the opening is pedestrian. I don't find the C major interlude much more interesting than the opening myself, and I don't think I'm immune to Beethoven's humor (there are more clever harmonic touches in the second movement of the 8th symphony, and as for Haydn, he did many things far more surprising and clever than the familiar movement you mention).

Why are you equating "humour" with "clever"? I didn't suggest that either Beethoven 27/1 or Haydn's Surprise were especially clever, so you're not actually refuting what I said. I picked the Surprise Symphony precisely because it has the same element of obvious predictability, of square phrases. Not because I think in either case it's the most brilliantly witty joke a composer ever pulled.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 02, 2015, 06:40:46 AM
I believe that there are several "waves" of experimenting in the early Beethoven sonatas. The first 4, all with 4 movements and often on a very broad scale probably seek to establish a large scale virtuoso sonata distinct from the often more intimate Haydn and Mozart pieces. (Although I am not sufficiently familiar with what Dussek or Clementi wrote in the late 1790s and Haydn's last sonata in E flat major is also quite large scaled and brilliant but without a dance movement).

Then in op.10 the first two pieces are rather terse (in #2 Beethoven manages to sound like Brahms in the central movement while the outer movements seem indebted to Haydn) and the 3rd one is also more concentrated than op.2/3 or op.7 (if often comparably brilliant). The next three are all in three movements, the op.14 ones rather intimate and lighter in mood whereas the Pathetique is even more "heroic" than the two earlier minor mode sonatas but also somewhat "mixed" with a comparably short adagio and a rather light rondo finale.
op.22 returns to the broad, virtuoso style in 4 movements (but for some reason I find it the least convincing of them).

Then he starts the "quasi fantasia" experiments of op.27, followed by the "suite"-like op.26 (which seems also trying something different out). Again, after experimenting comes a "regular" 4 movement piece (IMO superior to the preceding ones), the "Pastoral" sonata. But as in op.22 it is more genial in mood, not heroic like op.13 or melancholic/romantic like op.27/2.

One can probably argue that all these aspects were important for Beethoven to explore, even if some results are more convincing than others. After all, in the late Sonatas like op.101, 109 or the Cello sonatas op.102 he again used rather unusual combinations of movements which could be called quasi fantasia style.

(op.54 is a piece I don't get. It's for me the weirdest as well and I guess I am more likely to listen to trifles like op.49 or to op.27/1 with all its "faults" than to this strange piece.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 06:56:29 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 02, 2015, 06:40:46 AM
I believe that there are several "waves" of experimenting in the early Beethoven sonatas.

...

One can probably argue that all these aspects were important for Beethoven to explore, even if some results are more convincing than others.

...

I only highlighted a couple of key sentences in your post, but I agree with most of what you're saying. I think a lot of the really great musicians essentially set themselves musical problems and then go ahead and solve them. I'd definitely cite Beethoven as an example of that tendency. He wasn't just trying to do the same thing in every piece; rather, he was exploring his interests at the time.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 02, 2015, 07:02:52 AM
I'll just mention, briefly, that HJ Lim made me prick up my ears and listen to op 27/1.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 07:07:11 AM
Quote from: orfeo on May 02, 2015, 06:38:14 AM
Why are you equating "humour" with "clever"? I didn't suggest that either Beethoven 27/1 or Haydn's Surprise were especially clever, so you're not actually refuting what I said. I picked the Surprise Symphony precisely because it has the same element of obvious predictability, of square phrases. Not because I think in either case it's the most brilliantly witty joke a composer ever pulled.

Then there may be a semantic subtlety here I'm not picking up on. After all, you spoke of 27/1 to say "It's his joke," and I don't think cleverness and humor are so far apart as to be unrelated.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 02, 2015, 06:40:46 AM
I believe that there are several "waves" of experimenting in the early Beethoven sonatas. The first 4, all with 4 movements and often on a very broad scale probably seek to establish a large scale virtuoso sonata distinct from the often more intimate Haydn and Mozart pieces. (Although I am not sufficiently familiar with what Dussek or Clementi wrote in the late 1790s and Haydn's last sonata in E flat major is also quite large scaled and brilliant but without a dance movement).

Then in op.10 the first two pieces are rather terse (in #2 Beethoven manages to sound like Brahms in the central movement while the outer movements seem indebted to Haydn) and the 3rd one is also more concentrated than op.2/3 or op.7 (if often comparably brilliant). The next three are all in three movements, the op.14 ones rather intimate and lighter in mood whereas the Pathetique is even more "heroic" than the two earlier minor mode sonatas but also somewhat "mixed" with a comparably short adagio and a rather light rondo finale.
op.22 returns to the broad, virtuoso style in 4 movements (but for some reason I find it the least convincing of them).

Then he starts the "quasi fantasia" experiments of op.27, followed by the "suite"-like op.26 (which seems also trying something different out). Again, after experimenting comes a "regular" 4 movement piece (IMO superior to the preceding ones), the "Pastoral" sonata. But as in op.22 it is more genial in mood, not heroic like op.13 or melancholic/romantic like op.27/2.

One can probably argue that all these aspects were important for Beethoven to explore, even if some results are more convincing than others. After all, in the late Sonatas like op.101, 109 or the Cello sonatas op.102 he again used rather unusual combinations of movements which could be called quasi fantasia style.

(op.54 is a piece I don't get. It's for me the weirdest as well and I guess I am more likely to listen to trifles like op.49 or to op.27/1 with all its "faults" than to this strange piece.)

Nice comments. It's ironic that Beethoven himself thought especially well of 22, which neither of us much cares for.

I myself don't hear Brahms in 10/2, but I do hear a hint of Brahmsian melancholy in the central movement of 14/1. And definitely Haydn in the outer movements of 10/2, the finale of which is a gem of humor and cleverness (sorry, orfeo).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on May 02, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
I like the 1st symphony better than the 3rd. Is there something wrong with me?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on May 02, 2015, 01:31:25 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on May 02, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
I like the 1st symphony better than the 3rd. Is there something wrong with me?



Yes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 05:49:31 PM
The only thing wrong with you is that you're hanging around with people who tell you it's not okay to like one piece of music more than another.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ken B on May 02, 2015, 06:06:34 PM
Quote from: EigenUser on May 02, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
I like the 1st symphony better than the 3rd. Is there something wrong with me?

Yes. Even if we concede Orfeo's point.  >:D :laugh:

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Quote from: orfeo on May 02, 2015, 05:49:31 PM
The only thing wrong with you is that you're hanging around with people who tell you it's not okay to like one piece of music more than another.

Oh, come now. Do you really think anybody does that here? If so, quote chapter and verse. People may not share your liking or esteem for one piece or another, and they have every right to say so, but I seriously doubt anybody says it's not OK to like what you like.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 06:09:51 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 02, 2015, 06:06:34 PM
Yes. Even if we concede Orfeo's point.  >:D :laugh:

Which I don't. And my answer is "yes" too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 02, 2015, 06:54:20 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
Nice comments. It's ironic that Beethoven himself thought especially well of 22, which neither of us much cares for.
(I didn't mean to interrupt, but I do love both Opp. 22 and 26. Can't exactly explain why; just one of those things.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 07:07:39 PM
Quote from: Brian on May 02, 2015, 06:54:20 PM
(I didn't mean to interrupt, but I do love both Opp. 22 and 26. Can't exactly explain why; just one of those things.)

Well, it's not okay for you to like them! Because I said so!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 07:09:39 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Oh, come now. Do you really think anybody does that here? If so, quote chapter and verse.

Two people on this page have responded Yes to the question, and you want me to quote chapter and verse?

EDIT: And if you think they're not being serious, then... why do you think I'm being serious?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 07:13:58 PM
Quote from: orfeo on May 02, 2015, 07:09:39 PM
Two people on this page have responded Yes to the question, and you want me to quote chapter and verse?

EDIT: And if you think they're not being serious, then... why do you think I'm being serious?

How do you know I do think you're being serious?

And BTW it's three people. Four if we include Brian, only he hasn't weighed in yet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ken B on May 02, 2015, 07:54:57 PM
Quote from: orfeo on May 02, 2015, 07:09:39 PM
Two people on this page have responded Yes to the question, and you want me to quote chapter and verse?

Wow. And after all the cat scratching recently about reading comprehension. My comment, for those challenged in the art of reading between the lines of one liners, was a joke saying there is something wrong with Nate period, forget music.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ken B on May 02, 2015, 07:57:26 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 02, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Oh, come now. Do you really think anybody does that here? If so, quote chapter and verse. People may not share your liking or esteem for one piece or another, and they have every right to say so, but I seriously doubt anybody says it's not OK to like what you like.

Except for Gurrelieder. Liking Gurrelieder shows real moral turpitude. 

::)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on May 02, 2015, 08:23:16 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 02, 2015, 07:54:57 PMAnd after all the cat scratching recently about reading comprehension.



For the record, I was serious.  Deadly serious.  Preferring the C Major to the E Flat is a crime against humanity.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 02, 2015, 08:31:19 PM
Quote from: Todd on May 02, 2015, 08:23:16 PM


For the record, I was serious.  Deadly serious.  Preferring the C Major to the E Flat is a crime against humanity.
Hitler, Stalin and Mao Zedong all preferred the 1st symphony to the Eroica. Just saying.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 08:42:38 PM
Quote from: Ken B on May 02, 2015, 07:54:57 PM
Wow. And after all the cat scratching recently about reading comprehension. My comment, for those challenged in the art of reading between the lines of one liners, was a joke saying there is something wrong with Nate period, forget music.

I know. Wow right back at you.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 12:11:02 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 02, 2015, 06:54:20 PM
(I didn't mean to interrupt, but I do love both Opp. 22 and 26.

Chopin didn't care much for Beethoven's music, but apparently loved op.26 (which is to some extent a model for his b flat minor sonata).
Composer's remarks should be taken seriously, but also with more than a grain of salt. Often it might just have been sales pitch. But in such a case it could also be some rather "technical" thing Beethoven had solved to his satisfaction. In any case, with my idea of "waves" or phases op.22 works as a kind of endpoint and apparently Beethoven saw it as a landmark.
I still do not see in which respect he thought it superior to op.2/3 or op.7 or op.10/3 (if his remarks are to be understood thus). It might be "tighter" in construction but less original and I find the themes/melodies rather unremarkable throughout; the whole thing seems quite ordinary, solidly done but not very inspired.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: EigenUser on May 03, 2015, 02:27:47 AM
Thanks for the laugh, guys. ;D

I like the Eroica, but not as much as some people here seem to. I think that the 1st reminds me of the Mendelssohn string symphonies that I used to be obsessed with in high school (and still am to an extent, though I haven't heard them in awhile). It was like -- after all these years of loving the Mendelssohn SS's -- they make even more sense now.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 02:42:58 AM
Quote from: EigenUser on May 03, 2015, 02:27:47 AM
Thanks for the laugh, guys. ;D

I like the Eroica, but not as much as some people here seem to. I think that the 1st reminds me of the Mendelssohn string symphonies that I used to be obsessed with in high school (and still am to an extent, though I haven't heard them in awhile). It was like -- after all these years of loving the Mendelssohn SS's -- they make even more sense now.

How 'bout we all meet in the middle and decide to like the D major, no. 2?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 03, 2015, 03:18:32 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 02:42:58 AM
How 'bout we all meet in the middle and decide to like the D major, no. 2?
Seriously.

Re op 22 not being very original—it's an archetype, a proof of mastery. Classical composers liked to do those when they felt they had reached the point, to produce a work of utter mastery using only the simplest materials, forms and structures. Op 22 was meant to show that Beethoven could Compose Good in spite of what everyone said, that he could write a Normal Sonata Form and a Normal Minuet and a Normal Rondo with none of the wild and original ideas he was infamous for and it would still be a masterpiece. He was trying to be Mozart in other words.

Mozart produced some insanely good masterpieces (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO0tKl3gww4) using very, very conventional materials and this is obviously an aesthetic Beethoven aspired to as well. Problem is Beethoven did not have Mozart's mastery. He was proud of Op 22 but he never tried to do something like that again, with one possible exception: the 2nd symphony (whose first movement is very obviously modeled on Mozart's "Prague") which was significantly more successful because of the trademark Beethoven energy that just pushes everything forward, which he didn't bother trying to suppress in order to prove a point. Also cos the slow movement is amazing. In other cases, though, Beethoven's 'conventional materials' end up becoming really weird because he just can't resist (Op. 70/2/i, iii) or stick out because of their apparent crudity, which in itself makes them unconventional (Op. 30/2/iv, Op. 53/i)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2015, 03:35:37 AM
Why the discussion? This is all we really need to know about LvB:

Quote from: James on April 21, 2009, 11:24:10 PM
Beethoven was pretty wrapped up in himself and it's ego-centric, boorish...his bloated utterances are hardly on a measured or gentile human scale. Vast self-important planes of grandiose postering & bombast that aren't much justified, crying out for attention like a typical drama queen in so many ways. It's just so earthbound & completely over-rated.


Although I'm not certain what a gentile human scale is.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 03:41:50 AM
Quote from: amw on May 03, 2015, 03:18:32 AM
Seriously.

Re op 22 not being very original—it's an archetype, a proof of mastery. Classical composers liked to do those when they felt they had reached the point, to produce a work of utter mastery using only the simplest materials, forms and structures. Op 22 was meant to show that Beethoven could Compose Good in spite of what everyone said, that he could write a Normal Sonata Form and a Normal Minuet and a Normal Rondo with none of the wild and original ideas he was infamous for and it would still be a masterpiece. He was trying to be Mozart in other words.

Mozart produced some insanely good masterpieces (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO0tKl3gww4) using very, very conventional materials and this is obviously an aesthetic Beethoven aspired to as well. Problem is Beethoven did not have Mozart's mastery. He was proud of Op 22 but he never tried to do something like that again, with one possible exception: the 2nd symphony (whose first movement is very obviously modeled on Mozart's "Prague") which was significantly more successful because of the trademark Beethoven energy that just pushes everything forward, which he didn't bother trying to suppress in order to prove a point. Also cos the slow movement is amazing. In other cases, though, Beethoven's 'conventional materials' end up becoming really weird because he just can't resist (Op. 70/2/i, iii) or stick out because of their apparent crudity, which in itself makes them unconventional (Op. 30/2/iv, Op. 53/i)

This is the kind of comment that makes me still grateful for the existence of this board, even after all the James-this and name-your-top-43-xylophone-concertos-written-in-1629 clutter. Your comment reminds me of a famous essay by Donald Francis Tovey, "Some Aspects of Beethoven's Art Forms," which among things demonstrates what Tovey considered the uniqueness of Beethoven's most "normal" work, the op. 22, and the normalcy of his most "unique" work, the op. 131 quartet. Basically Tovey's point is that for all the ordinariness of its materials, op. 22 is like nothing in else in Beethoven, Haydn, or Mozart; and that for all its originality, op. 131 creates its own set of internal laws making it a consistent and inevitable organic form.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 03:49:04 AM
What about op.28? This is also comparably conventional but IMO much nicer.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 03:55:16 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 03, 2015, 03:35:37 AM
Why the discussion? This is all we really need to know about LvB:


Although I'm not certain what a gentile human scale is.

Well, you posted before I had finished my comment about James-this and xylophones-that. I assume a gentile human scale is opposed to a Jewish human scale, or something like that. But of course the problem with James's comment is that it is based on a cliché about Beethoven and not the actual music, or at least about not more than a small part of it. You would think from James's comment that the second movement of the 8th symphony, the third movement of the op. 130, and the variations of 127 had never existed. Of course Beethoven is not the only composer who has suffered from such misperceptions: Bach the mechanical, Mozart the pretty and decorative, Chopin also pretty and decorative in his own way, Debussy wispy and shapeless, Bruckner elephantine, Wagner heavy and loud, Verdi nothing but oom-pah-pah.

If I care to find it again, I wrote a highly sarcastic comment some years back blasting someone here who wrote this kind of nonsense about Chopin, and even a critic as smart as John Simon can write such foolishness as this:

QuoteIt seems to me that before the Romantics, music was constricted. I do not dispute that the two Bs and one M were important composers, but for me they were all about technique and technical innovation, but ultimately—even the tonitruous [Simon wouldn't be Simon if he didn't have us running to the dictionary] Beethoven—not truly free. . . . It appears to me that Bach and Mozart (Beethoven was somewhat different) wrote predictable, mathematical music, limited in scope, not unlike a caged canary's pleasant but anodyne chirping. It was also perfectly square, by which I mean that from the first two notes of a bar you could predict the next two.

James's pet cliché reminds me of a well-known poem about the 9th symphony by Adrienne Rich:

QuoteThe Ninth Symphony of Beethoven Understood At Last As a Sexual Message
by Adrienne Rich

A man in terror of impotence
or infertility, not knowing the difference
a man trying to tell something
howling from the climacteric
music of the entirely
isolated soul
yelling at Joy from the tunnel of ego
music without the ghost
of another person in it, music
trying to tell something the man
does not want out, would keep if he could
gagged and bound and flogged with chords of Joy
where everything in silence and the
beating of a bloody fist upon
a splintered table.

Well, like all of us, she has a right to her opinion, but my opinion is that if Beethoven is "over-rated" (unlike such geniuses as Koechlin, Braga-Santos, and Havergal Brian), I'll continue to over-rate him.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 03:58:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 03:49:04 AM
What about op.28? This is also comparably conventional but IMO much nicer.

I'm sort of on the fence with that one. The outstanding movement to my mind is the andante, and he gets some fine energy in the development of the first movement. But I don't find much of interest in the scherzo or finale.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 03, 2015, 04:11:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 03:49:04 AM
What about op.28? This is also comparably conventional but IMO much nicer.

Harold Truscott has a lovely analysis of just how unusual and unconventional Op. 28 is in The Beethoven Companion—I mean his chapter is problematic in all sorts of ways, but with that sonata he's really on point. I might try to find it later
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: NJ Joe on May 03, 2015, 04:58:18 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 03:41:50 AM
This is the kind of comment that makes me still grateful for the existence of this board, even after all the...name-your-top-43-xylophone-concertos-written-in-1629 clutter.

I had just come up with my 43rd, and was about to post my list over on the "Xylophone:  Master Instrument of Them All" board.

And now I'm not going to do it.

Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 03, 2015, 06:35:06 AM
I imagine Op. 28 must be difficult to play to satisfaction, because in most performances I've heard, the opening "allegro" and following "andante" are very close or almost identical in tempo. I may have heard an eccentric reading or two where the first movement is slower.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 06:52:00 AM
But in the first movements op.28 whole 3/4-bars are probably "felt" as the (slowish) beat (if one counts quarters it's very fast, similarly to the Eroica first movement). Whereas it would be quarters or even eighth notes in the andante.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 03, 2015, 06:54:28 AM
Quote from: amw on May 01, 2015, 06:16:12 PM
Other Beethoven-missing-the-marks:
the clarinet trio Op. 11
a fair bit of Fidelio
Op. 18/5 and to some extent 4
slow movements of the first two piano concertos
some of the violin sonatas maybe? I don't remember half of them tbh

Clarinet trio, can't remember if I've even heard it.
Fidelio: Hopefully not one of the greatest villain arias in the history of opera? Or that magnificent gold aria ? Not to mention Leonore overtures, "Jetzt, Alter" and great finales and climaxes of both acts?
op.18/5 and 4: blasphemy! Those are probably the greatest of his early quartets  8)
Piano concerto slow movements: can't remember the slow movements so can't comment on that one. On the whole I recall having liked those concertos.
Violin sonatas: Disagreed. Among Beethoven's finest chamber music, tbh :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 07:05:38 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 06:52:00 AM
But in the first movements op.28 whole 3/4-bars are probably "felt" as the (slowish) beat (if one counts quarters it's very fast, similarly to the Eroica first movement). Whereas it would be quarters or even eighth notes in the andante.

I think the Andante, like the second movement of the 8th symphony, is properly in 4/8 rather than 2/4. I have heard one live performance, I think by Mustonen, where it was played as 2/4, almost an allegro in double-time from the usual.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 03, 2015, 07:07:02 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 02, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
My least favorite is #4.

??? One of Beethoven's early masterpieces if you ask me. His sorrows of young werther, perhaps.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2015, 07:10:20 AM
I find op.28 tremendously satisfying. I have Kovacevich performing it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 07:18:50 AM
It is a truth universally acknowledged that the best quartet of op.18 is #1.

The violin sonatas are great. They may not be as adventurous as some of the piano sonatas but I think they are among the most accomplished of his early works. Melodically inspired, nicely balanced, diverse in mood, texture etc. Similar remarks apply to the most underappreciated early Beethoven pieces: The string trios op.9. They are often as good as some of the op.18 quartets. op.9/3 interestingly makes use of a four note motive that seems a foreshadowing of the famous 4 note motive in the late quartets.

I find it clearly superior to the c minor quartet 18/4. I don't think the movements of 18/4 fit together very well and I not very fond of the "romantic" first movement which is also uncommonly dominated by melody+ (usually repeated 8th notes) accompaniment. The finale is a four-square-rondo with hardly any sonata-like development. I like the scherzando movement but it does not fit with the tragic/dramatic mood of the others.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2015, 07:21:18 AM
John Simon and Adrienne Rich are idiots. Moreover, he´s a cunt and she´s a dick.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 03, 2015, 07:26:35 AM
Op. 9 is excellent. Even Op. 3 is excellent. I wish Beethoven had written more string trios, they're incredibly assured and inventive. Only the string trio/flute serenade/whatever (i've heard various instrumentations) Op. 25? (The D major one with like 20 movements, you probably know what i'm talking about) is a miscalculation, and I suspect it was written as a potboiler more than a 'proper' piece of music.

Tbh I like the violin sonatas but the first three in particular don't seem like top-drawer Beethoven. I'll try to get into them eventually.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ken B on May 03, 2015, 07:28:21 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 03, 2015, 07:21:18 AM
John Simon and Adrienne Rich are idiots. Moreover, he´s a cunt and she´s a dick.

That's incredibly rude Florestan. Incredibly. You should use gender-neutral pronouns. "s/he's a cunt and s/he's a dick."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jubal Slate on May 03, 2015, 07:30:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 03, 2015, 07:21:18 AM
John Simon and Adrienne Rich are idiots. Moreover, he´s a cunt and she´s a dick.

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2015, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: Ken B on May 03, 2015, 07:28:21 AM
That's incredibly rude Florestan. Incredibly. You should use gender-neutral pronouns. "s/he's a cunt and s/he's a dick."

And the PC thought police should kiss my a$$.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 07:38:38 AM
Please go away with that nonsense. I am afraid I'll go blind if I read those rude words.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 03, 2015, 07:44:08 AM
Agreed about the string trios op. 3 and 9.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 03, 2015, 08:03:47 AM
Quote from: Alberich on May 03, 2015, 07:44:08 AM
Agreed about the string trios op. 3 and 9.

+1

And let's not forget the op. 8.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 03, 2015, 08:43:00 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 03, 2015, 08:03:47 AM
+1

And let's not forget the op. 8.

I forgot it and by the time I remembered it I was too lazy to edit my post. :F
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 03, 2015, 09:32:54 AM
op.8 is fun but it sometimes veers dangerously close to that serenade with flute amw mentioned.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 04, 2015, 04:36:00 AM
Oh, how awful of Beethoven to write those serenade thingies with lots of movements. Like his own Septet and Schubert's Octet and all those other pieces that no-one ever liked.

By the way, you'll find that op.25 has 6 movements. Six. That's a heck of a lot closer to the 4-movement works that apparently pass muster than the 20-movement parody you created. You don't have to like pieces (indeed, you don't have to like the entire serenade genre), but you could at least fairly characterise the thing that you're not liking.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2015, 04:46:48 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2015, 03:55:16 AM
. . . even a critic as smart as John Simon can write such foolishness as this:

He really thinks much too highly of himself, if he fancies he could "predict" Bach's or Mozart's work, charting any sort of mathematical model.

Well, maybe he'd just had a fantastic fillet of halibut, and was overcome with an invincible sense of bien-être . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2015, 05:08:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 04, 2015, 04:46:48 AM
He really thinks much too highly of himself, if he fancies he could "predict" Bach's or Mozart's work, charting any sort of mathematical model.

Maybe so, and he has a well-earned reputation for gratuitous personal vindictive towards actors (mainly actresses whose looks displease him), but the distinction is that when he is on target, few write as well as he. (See, for example, his essay for the Criterion release of that most wonderful of romantic comedies, Bergman's Smiles of a Summer Night, which you can read for free on the Criterion website.)

As for "predictability" in Bach or Mozart, I've always held that the rhythmic subtleties in the opening bars of the Figaro overture rival anything in Stravinsky, and the Così overture, which I've been studying a lot lately, has all kinds of unpredictable elements in the way Mozart plays with sonata-form conventions, assigns his instruments to the various themes, uses invertible counterpoint, sometimes presents a motif in 4-bar and other times in 2-bar forms, etc. These subtleties may not be obvious to the "naked ear," but they prevent the music from becoming routine, and help account for why it remains delightful over repeated listenings.

But perhaps the above belongs in a Mozart thread.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 04, 2015, 06:51:31 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2015, 05:08:56 AM
As for "predictability" in Bach or Mozart, I've always held that the rhythmic subtleties in the opening bars of the Figaro overture rival anything in Stravinsky, and the Così overture, which I've been studying a lot lately, has all kinds of unpredictable elements in the way Mozart plays with sonata-form conventions, assigns his instruments to the various themes, uses invertible counterpoint, sometimes presents a motif in 4-bar and other times in 2-bar forms, etc. These subtleties may not be obvious to the "naked ear," but they prevent the music from becoming routine, and help account for why it remains delightful over repeated listenings.
Additionally, I think the naturalness with which Mozart and Beethoven handle eccentric rhythms, unpredictable elements, etc., can blind Simon to how innovative those elements may be. Whatever odd shenanigans the young or middle-period Beethoven got to in his scores, they may not feel, bar-to-bar and note-to-note, disruptive or unpredictable. The logic is strong enough that we can miss how unusual some of those elements may be.

There's also the Citizen Kane effect - you know, where an intro to film student asks the teacher, "I've seen this camera work in every movie since Kane, so what makes Kane special?"
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2015, 06:53:11 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2015, 08:53:57 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 04, 2015, 06:51:31 AM
can blind Simon . . .

Not just Simon . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2015, 08:59:23 AM
He is not the only person to mistake the "artistry of naturalness" for "I knew that was coming."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: king ubu on May 04, 2015, 11:37:30 PM
not really on topic here, I know, but why would anyone possibly dislike the Schubert octet?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 05, 2015, 12:00:06 AM
Nobody did. amw mildly mocked one serenade-style piece of Beethoven's (op.25 with flute). For some reason Orfeo took this to be a general criticism of all such multi-movement pieces, like Beethoven's septet and Schubert's octet. AFAIC I think "lesser" composers like Hummel and Spohr did some of their best work in such wind/string chamber pieces, although most of them return to the standard 4 movements.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: king ubu on May 05, 2015, 12:15:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 05, 2015, 12:00:06 AM
Nobody did. amw mildly mocked one serenade-style piece of Beethoven's (op.25 with flute). For some reason Orfeo took this to be a general criticism of all such multi-movement pieces, like Beethoven's septet and Schubert's octet. AFAIC I think "lesser" composers like Hummel and Spohr did some of their best work in such wind/string chamber pieces, although most of them return to the standard 4 movements.
Alright then - I'm definitely no expert yet, but as I really love the Schubert octet - and enjoy most of the others you mention (Beethoven, Spohr - don't know Hummel yet), I was wondering.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 05, 2015, 03:58:49 AM
The Beethoven septet was extremely popular when new; the only time I've heard it live, however, I confess it bored me. Perhaps another try is warranted.

No particular thoughts one way or other about the Schubert octet, which I haven't heard for years either.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2015, 04:51:06 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 05, 2015, 12:00:06 AM
Nobody did. amw mildly mocked one serenade-style piece of Beethoven's (op.25 with flute). For some reason Orfeo took this to be a general criticism of all such multi-movement pieces, like Beethoven's septet and Schubert's octet.

Actually the criticism was flowing for both op.25 and op.8. The apparent basis of the criticism was 'too many movements' and I was mocking that as a basis for criticism.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 05, 2015, 05:14:19 AM
Apparently Beethoven himself was dismissive about the Septet later on, partially on account of its popularity. Maybe he felt that it eclipsed more accomplished pieces. Or he was just behaving like an irascible genius ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 05, 2015, 07:05:00 AM
I actually like Op. 8 and 25 (just think they're not as good as 3 and 9) and 'too many movements' was not actually the basis for my criticism oh my goooddddd
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2015, 07:12:33 AM
Quote from: amw on May 03, 2015, 07:26:35 AM
Only the string trio/flute serenade/whatever (i've heard various instrumentations) Op. 25? (The D major one with like 20 movements, you probably know what i'm talking about) is a miscalculation, and I suspect it was written as a potboiler more than a 'proper' piece of music.

Well maybe if you managed to construct a criticism that had any other content in it, I wouldn't think the utterly hyperbolic bit about 20 movements was meaningful! When you miscount 6 as 20, it sure as hell sounds like a complaint about the number of movements!

Seriously, what was the basis of your criticism? Because if it was anything else, it sure as hell isn't in your post. Complaining about the number of movements is the one solid thing you said, and it was also a very foolish thing to say.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 05, 2015, 07:27:45 AM
I'll come up with a proper criticism that uses at least 5 actual musical terms and puts forth my case in an incisive and erudite manner, leaving the entire GMG forum in awe of my wisdom at some point when it's not 3 am but basically I find them kinda meh in terms of thematic material and development.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2015, 07:32:17 AM
Fine. So next time say that instead of making such a juvenile cheap shot. You're entitled to your own opinion. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 05, 2015, 08:13:06 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 05, 2015, 03:58:49 AM
The Beethoven septet was extremely popular when new; the only time I've heard it live, however, I confess it bored me. Perhaps another try is warranted.

No particular thoughts one way or other about the Schubert octet, which I haven't heard for years either.
I think the Beethoven septet was his most popular, or most-performed, piece, during his lifetime. Could be wrong about that, but it's certainly near the top of the list, especially for his chamber music. I remember doing research on concert programs in London when I was at the British Library, and the Beethoven septet was their version of a guaranteed hit concert.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2015, 08:24:17 AM
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ken B on May 05, 2015, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 04, 2015, 06:51:31 AM
Additionally, I think the naturalness with which Mozart and Beethoven handle eccentric rhythms, unpredictable elements, etc., can blind Simon to how innovative those elements may be. Whatever odd shenanigans the young or middle-period Beethoven got to in his scores, they may not feel, bar-to-bar and note-to-note, disruptive or unpredictable. The logic is strong enough that we can miss how unusual some of those elements may be.

There's also the Citizen Kane effect - you know, where an intro to film student asks the teacher, "I've seen this camera work in every movie since Kane, so what makes Kane special?"

They say Shakespeare was a good phrase-maker, but when I read I see a lot of cliches.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on May 05, 2015, 08:33:51 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 05, 2015, 08:13:06 AM
I think the Beethoven septet was his most popular, or most-performed, piece, during his lifetime.

It was. As a measure of its success, there are quite a number of transcriptions for piano (2 or 4 hands) and other chamber combinations.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 05, 2015, 09:04:16 AM
This new series carries "Historically Informed Performance" to maximum anal retentiveness: played on original instruments, with the exact orchestra/section sizes and platform layouts* used at the premieres, and wherever possible recorded in the actual rooms/halls where the premieres took place. Recorded live. Of course, the actual performances are still matters of interpretation...and they are presumably wearing modern clothing and whatnot.

I'm listening now.

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ALPHA470.jpg)

*for the Ninth's premiere, the chorus was placed in front of the orchestra, which they will reportedly do in this series.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 05, 2015, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 05, 2015, 09:04:16 AM
This new series carries "Historically Informed Performance" to maximum anal retentiveness: played on original instruments, with the exact orchestra/section sizes and platform layouts* used at the premieres, and wherever possible recorded in the actual rooms/halls where the premieres took place. Recorded live.

HIP? Bah, humbug! Without at least Mauro Giuliani and Antonio Casimir Cartellieri in the orchestra and Prince Lichnovsky and Archduke Rudolph in the audience, HIP is a joke.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 05, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
Yes, I want to hear princely sneezes and ducal applause!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2015, 04:20:07 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 05, 2015, 12:14:03 PM
Yes, I want to hear princely sneezes and ducal applause!

Well, I don't know what dukes got up to, specifically, but as I understand it audiences back then didn't just sit there listening to the music. We need crowd noise. When they get to the 7th they're going to need a crowd cheering wildly and asking for an encore of the Allegretto.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on May 06, 2015, 01:54:31 AM
Apparently, contrary to what most sources claim, Rocco's gold aria from act 1 was originally included in 1806 version of Fidelio, then known as Leonore. I actually prefer the original 1805/1806 versions of the aria, it has more "metallic" sound in it. Apart from some rhytmical changes to match new lyrics, the arias are pretty much the same in 1805 and 1806, in contrast to more apparent orchestration changes in 1814 version.

This site contains 1806 version of the aria, in MIDI, unfortunately:

http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=hess112 (http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=hess112)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2015, 05:29:47 PM
Query, I'v notices that in Op 9 and Op 18 (String Trios and String Quartets) Beethoven doesn't write trio sections in his scherzos. Is there any documentation explanation for this? I don't know of any other examples of this from this time.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on August 11, 2015, 10:58:56 PM
Beethoven certainly does write contrasting central sections commonly called "trio". Not all of them might be explicitly called "trio", e.g. in op.18#3 the "trio" is called "Minore" (i.e. section in the minor mode).
This is not uncommon, one will also find "alternativo" or "menuetto II" or no explicit name for the section at all, despite "trio" being most common in the classical era.

Another exception is the 2nd mvmt. of op.18#4 which does not have a trio (but the 3rd movement, Menuetto does). All other "trio" sections from op.18 are called "trio" in my scores.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 12, 2015, 02:21:56 AM
 :( I'll have to listen more carefully.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on August 18, 2015, 01:43:17 PM
Has anyone read this novel?

(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0726/9203/products/Convo-w-Beethoven_1024x1024.jpg?v=1427217514)

Deaf as he was, Beethoven had to be addressed in writing, and he was always accompanied by a notebook in which people could scribble questions and comments. Conversations with Beethoven, in a tour de force of fictional invention, tells the story of the last year of Beethoven's life almost entirely through such notebook entries: Friends, family, students, doctors, and others attend to the volatile Maestro, whose sometimes unpredictable and often very loud replies we infer. A fully fleshed and often very funny portrait of Beethoven emerges. He struggles with his music and with his health; he argues with and insults just about everyone. Most of all, he worries about his wayward—and beloved—nephew Karl. A large cast of Dickensian characters surrounds the great composer at the center of this wonderfully engaging novel, which deepens in the end to make a memorable music of its own.

"Conversations with Beethoven is unclassifiable—a novel comprised exclusively of 'oral' speech, that reads rapidly on the page like a kind of music-poetry; a prose poem of numerous voices, in which passion (both declared and undeclared) is the driving force; an intimately detailed double portrait of Beethoven and his nephew Karl that will linger long in the memory, like the most beautiful and enigmatic music."
—Joyce Carol Oates
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 18, 2015, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 18, 2015, 01:43:17 PM
Has anyone read this novel?

I imagine Beethoven has.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) "novel?"
Post by: Scion7 on August 18, 2015, 04:02:37 PM
Without actually doing any research, isn't this a series of photos or reproductions of talk-books and letters, rather than a work of fiction (a novel)?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) "novel?"
Post by: Brian on August 18, 2015, 04:06:49 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on August 18, 2015, 04:02:37 PM
Without actually doing any research, isn't this a series of photos or reproductions of talk-books and letters, rather than a work of fiction (a novel)?
The paragraphs I posted below the cover image are the official description, by the publisher.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 18, 2015, 05:26:28 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on August 11, 2015, 10:58:56 PM
Another exception is the 2nd mvmt. of op.18#4 which does not have a trio.

That's because the movement is in sonata form. The indication "scherzoso" refers to its character, not its structure. (Somewhat similarly, the second movement of the piano sonata in Eb, 31/3, is also like a scherzo in character - albeit in 2/4 time - but it too is definitely in sonata form, unlike the minuet that follows.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 18, 2015, 05:37:02 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2015, 05:29:47 PM
Query, I'v notices that in Op 9 and Op 18 (String Trios and String Quartets) Beethoven doesn't write trio sections in his scherzos. Is there any documentation explanation for this? I don't know of any other examples of this from this time.

This is not really a problem. In the op. 9 1 and 3, the return to the scherzo is completely notated, rather than a da capo. This will happen from time to time especially if the return is varied in some way - as in the last statements of the scherzo sections in the 5th and 7th Symphonies. (My point holds whether you conceive the 5th as being in ABA or ABABA form. I take ABA as Beethoven's final intention.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2015, 11:21:22 PM
The point where calyptorhynchus is wrong or not listening closely, stands in any case:
All of the scherzo/menuetto movements in op.18 except for the sonata form scherzoso that replaces a slow movement in #4 are in the "traditional" form with a contrasting "trio" section.
(18#3 also has the dacapo written out but this does not change the form and is often hard to tell from merely listening because the changes in written out dacapos are often rather slight.)

Maybe the contrasts are sometimes not strong enough for him to be picked out when listening but this never occurred to me. E.g. in op.18#1 the "trio" starts with a gruff forte unison that is quite distinctive compared to the more brooding main section, followed by excited figures in the first violin. It's a fairly strong contrast, AFAIC. Similarly the minor mode section in #3 or the A flat major trio in #4.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 01:58:01 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

SEP 29, 2015
Vienna: Premiering Beethoven Symphonies All Over Again

...Comparatively little has been done by way of research into how audiences be-
haved or listened on, or for that matter: where. And whatever has been done,
it hasn't been made visible or audible to audiences in the same way. No matter
how authentic "17th century" the band plays in front of us, audiences still sit on
the other side of the fourth wall as if it were 1977. We treat music from Monteverdi
to Stockhausen as if it were Parsifal. The lights are dimmed, we listen in awed quiet,
are embarrassed if caught snoring, and duly hiss if someone has shown his or her
appreciation at a point that doesn't fit the current convention of when to show
appreciation. (I call those hissers the "Vigilant Applause Police", an odious faction
that happens to overlap considerably with the only slightly less annoying "Eager
Early Clappers"; see the scientific looking, albeit completely speculative Venn
diagram below.)

Historic Venues

Doing just that – researching where music was played – is the raison d'être of
the "Resound" project of the Orchester Wiener Akademie (the Vienna Academy
Orchestra) under organist-cum-conductor-cum-impresario Martin Haselböck.
In seven concerts over two concert seasons, the orchestra will have performed
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies more or less in the venues they were premiered
in. Interestingly that is possible ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/10/RE-SOUND_Wiener-Akademie_Vienna-Academy-Orchestra_Beethoven-9_CD-Cover_jens-f-laurson_Forbes.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on October 08, 2015, 10:04:08 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 01:58:01 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

SEP 29, 2015
Vienna: Premiering Beethoven Symphonies All Over Again

...Comparatively little has been done by way of research into how audiences be-
haved or listened on, or for that matter: where. And whatever has been done,
it hasn't been made visible or audible to audiences in the same way. No matter
how authentic "17th century" the band plays in front of us, audiences still sit on
the other side of the fourth wall as if it were 1977. We treat music from Monteverdi
to Stockhausen as if it were Parsifal. The lights are dimmed, we listen in awed quiet,
are embarrassed if caught snoring, and duly hiss if someone has shown his or her
appreciation at a point that doesn't fit the current convention of when to show
appreciation. (I call those hissers the "Vigilant Applause Police", an odious faction
that happens to overlap considerably with the only slightly less annoying "Eager
Early Clappers"; see the scientific looking, albeit completely speculative Venn
diagram below.)

Historic Venues

Doing just that – researching where music was played – is the raison d'être of
the "Resound" project of the Orchester Wiener Akademie (the Vienna Academy
Orchestra) under organist-cum-conductor-cum-impresario Martin Haselböck.
In seven concerts over two concert seasons, the orchestra will have performed
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies more or less in the venues they were premiered
in. Interestingly that is possible ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/10/RE-SOUND_Wiener-Akademie_Vienna-Academy-Orchestra_Beethoven-9_CD-Cover_jens-f-laurson_Forbes.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/)


Quoting this over to the new thread page, and also, Monday MusicWeb published my own article about this series. (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Oct/Beethoven_sys_470.htm)

"I'm a big admirer of period performances...but this new series gets to the fundamental paradox at the heart of the movement. HIP is not about presenting the music as it was heard during the composer's lifetime, it's about an idealized version. In these live recordings, the audience sits dutifully and respectfully silent. It would have been more accurate if the Orchester Wiener Akademie had invited noblemen and social climbers to gossip and seduce each other in the audience.

"There's another factor also: period performances were nearly as diverse as modern ones. For one thing, the players were mere amateurs compared to today's immaculately trained musicians, who spend years in organized conservatories. Look no further than the tale of the premiere of Beethoven's Fifth and Sixth Symphonies. A reviewer said the orchestra was "lacking in all respects," something that certainly is not true of the superb Orchester Wiener Akademie. During the same concert, as they played the Choral Fantasy, Beethoven actually stopped the orchestra and had them start over. There is no place for this in the HIP movement.

"This is as it should be but then shouldn't the booklet explain the movement's limits? So much is unknowable, and so much of what we do know, we would never want to reproduce. The gesture of as-accurate-as-possible Beethoven is a noble one, but at some point it becomes absurd."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 01:58:01 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

SEP 29, 2015
Vienna: Premiering Beethoven Symphonies All Over Again

...Comparatively little has been done by way of research into how audiences be-
haved or listened on, or for that matter: where. And whatever has been done,
it hasn't been made visible or audible to audiences in the same way. No matter
how authentic "17th century" the band plays in front of us, audiences still sit on
the other side of the fourth wall as if it were 1977. We treat music from Monteverdi
to Stockhausen as if it were Parsifal. The lights are dimmed, we listen in awed quiet,
are embarrassed if caught snoring, and duly hiss if someone has shown his or her
appreciation at a point that doesn't fit the current convention of when to show
appreciation. (I call those hissers the "Vigilant Applause Police", an odious faction
that happens to overlap considerably with the only slightly less annoying "Eager
Early Clappers"; see the scientific looking, albeit completely speculative Venn
diagram below.)

Historic Venues

Doing just that – researching where music was played – is the raison d'être of
the "Resound" project of the Orchester Wiener Akademie (the Vienna Academy
Orchestra) under organist-cum-conductor-cum-impresario Martin Haselböck.
In seven concerts over two concert seasons, the orchestra will have performed
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies more or less in the venues they were premiered
in. Interestingly that is possible ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/10/RE-SOUND_Wiener-Akademie_Vienna-Academy-Orchestra_Beethoven-9_CD-Cover_jens-f-laurson_Forbes.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/)


I'm envious, Jens: Wiener Akademie/Haselböck is one of my favorite ensembles, and the challenge they undertook here is so appealing to my personal attachment to the music!  As far as music goes, I live for this stuff, never for another perfect performance that sounds like a studio CD recording, but for the sort of rough-and-tumble realism which you describe so nicely. I didn't see a mention of a possible set of recordings coming out of this, have you heard anything? They usually record on Novalis, but I know someone in Zurich....  :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on October 08, 2015, 10:44:41 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 10:40:10 AM
I'm envious, Jens: Wiener Akademie/Haselböck is one of my favorite ensembles, and the challenge they undertook here is so appealing to my personal attachment to the music!  As far as music goes, I live for this stuff, never for another perfect performance that sounds like a studio CD recording, but for the sort of rough-and-tumble realism which you describe so nicely. I didn't see a mention of a possible set of recordings coming out of this, have you heard anything? They usually record on Novalis, but I know someone in Zurich....  :)

8)
They are recording all nine symphonies for Alpha!! Nos. 1 and 2 are already out. Very good performances, although if you played me all the HIP Beethoven 1/2 recordings out there without telling me which is which, I don't know if I could recognize which one is the new one.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on October 08, 2015, 11:02:58 AM
Good point about diversity, Brian. For all we know, historical performances may have been more diverse than modern ones. I think that's reflected in the modern HIP/PI movement. There is a notion that HIP is about the One True Way to perform a piece, but that notion is almost always perpetuated by HIP's opponents, not its advocates.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 11:14:45 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 08, 2015, 11:02:58 AM
Good point about diversity, Brian. For all we know, historical performances may have been more diverse than modern ones. I think that's reflected in the modern HIP/PI movement. There is a notion that HIP is about the One True Way to perform a piece, but that notion is almost always perpetuated by HIP's opponents, not its advocates.

It is a tenet of real authentic performance believers, that no two performances should be alike. Sometimes I suppose it is inevitable; if I have 7 or 8 PI performances of certain symphonies, how totally different can they be? Anyone, however, who can't tell a Gardiner Beethoven from a Hogwood Beethoven from a Brüggen Beethoven, for example, just ain't paying attention! Which one is the most authentic? They ALL are!   0:)

8)

Quote from: Brian on October 08, 2015, 10:44:41 AM
They are recording all nine symphonies for Alpha!! Nos. 1 and 2 are already out. Very good performances, although if you played me all the HIP Beethoven 1/2 recordings out there without telling me which is which, I don't know if I could recognize which one is the new one.

Ah, thanks. I'm coming to love Alpha.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on October 08, 2015, 12:10:40 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 11:14:45 AM
Sometimes I suppose it is inevitable; if I have 7 or 8 PI performances of certain symphonies, how totally different can they be?

They can be at least as different as 7 or 8 conventional performances!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 12:13:11 PM
Quote from: Pat B on October 08, 2015, 12:10:40 PM
They can be at least as different as 7 or 8 conventional performances!

Usually, they are more different rather than less...

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 10:40:10 AM
I didn't see a mention of a possible set of recordings coming out of this, have you heard anything? They usually record on Novalis, but I know someone in Zurich....  :)

8)
Quote from: Brian on October 08, 2015, 10:44:41 AM
They are recording all nine symphonies for Alpha!! Nos. 1 and 2 are already out. Very good performances, although if you played me all the HIP Beethoven 1/2 recordings out there without telling me which is which, I don't know if I could recognize which one is the new one.

The symphonies are all getting recorded. Whether they'll stick with Alpha remains to be seen, but certainly the first volume and perhaps the next are going to have the "Alpha" logo on it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 12:21:59 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 10:40:10 AM
I'm envious, Jens: Wiener Akademie/Haselböck is one of my favorite ensembles,

8)

I'm starting to really like them myself. I've been at two very fine concerts with them now (not counting the Beethoven Ninths, which was not good by technical standards and will need a lot of fixing if it is ever going to make an adequate recording... though the second of three performances, the one I skipped, I was reliably told, was by far the best of the three... so maybe there's enough there) and they are coming around in a big way, in their 30th (!!!) year of existence.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2015, 01:00:41 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 12:21:59 PM
I'm starting to really like them myself. I've been at two very fine concerts with them now (not counting the Beethoven Ninths, which was not good by technical standards and will need a lot of fixing if it is ever going to make an adequate recording... though the second of three performances, the one I skipped, I was reliably told, was by far the best of the three... so maybe there's enough there) and they are coming around in a big way, in their 30th (!!!) year of existence.

Good to hear, I would love to hear them in person. I'm just guessing here, but learning to put on a piece the size of the 9th has to be a major undertaking. One can't expect perfect results right from the first time, even from the best musicians. That is the charm of live performance, I would think. Also of period instruments for me, since they play closer to the edge of what is possible than modern instruments, which worked out all the danger a long time ago. Some raggedness is a small price to pay for the sound of players who really have to work for it (as Beethoven damned well knew!).

30 years; who knew? I only discovered them about 5 years ago, mainly because Novalis recordings are not exactly common here. Glad to have what I have though.   :)

Quote from: jlaurson on October 08, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
The symphonies are all getting recorded. Whether they'll stick with Alpha remains to be seen, but certainly the first volume and perhaps the next are going to have the "Alpha" logo on it.

I would be happy with Alpha, at least I can get them. I like their packaging and notes usually too, they have a tendency to lean on the interesting stuff, like, in this case, the venues.

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 09, 2015, 01:05:53 PM
Quote from: Brian on October 08, 2015, 10:04:08 AM
Quoting this over to the new thread page, and also, Monday MusicWeb published my own article about this series. (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Oct/Beethoven_sys_470.htm)

"I'm a big admirer of period performances...but this new series gets to the fundamental paradox at the heart of the movement. HIP is not about presenting the music as it was heard during the composer's lifetime, it's about an idealized version. In these live recordings, the audience sits dutifully and respectfully silent. It would have been more accurate if the Orchester Wiener Akademie had invited noblemen and social climbers to gossip and seduce each other in the audience.

"There's another factor also: period performances were nearly as diverse as modern ones. For one thing, the players were mere amateurs compared to today's immaculately trained musicians, who spend years in organized conservatories. Look no further than the tale of the premiere of Beethoven's Fifth and Sixth Symphonies. A reviewer said the orchestra was "lacking in all respects," something that certainly is not true of the superb Orchester Wiener Akademie. During the same concert, as they played the Choral Fantasy, Beethoven actually stopped the orchestra and had them start over. There is no place for this in the HIP movement.

"This is as it should be but then shouldn't the booklet explain the movement's limits? So much is unknowable, and so much of what we do know, we would never want to reproduce. The gesture of as-accurate-as-possible Beethoven is a noble one, but at some point it becomes absurd."

Very well put, and gets to my own problems with much of the HIP movement. Do we want to hear the performance Beethoven would have preferred, or the one he had to settle for?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2015, 03:01:23 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 09, 2015, 01:05:53 PM
Very well put, and gets to my own problems with much of the HIP movement. Do we want to hear the performance Beethoven would have preferred, or the one he had to settle for?

Well, without getting into a whole big thing, since we already know each others thoughts on the matter; I would like to hear it played on instruments of the time, and in the venue where it was premiered. Is there some harm that comes from that? Is it not actually the overactive imagination of someone who doesn't appreciate that idea which demands having a cadre of gossipers in the audience to make it really realistic? Who in their right mind actually thinks it is supposed to be a recreation of the original, farts and all? This is simply not the basis for rational criticism.

Anyway, I have read your posts for years. I think your real problem with the 'HIP' movement stems from thinner textures, faster (or slower) tempos than you learned and loved, and the general disregard for more traditional playing styles. All of which is perfectly reasonable and above criticism.

I suspect there were people back in the early times who made claims which, in retrospect, were not only grandiose but actually undesirable. Some people have never been able to get past those stupid claims and approach period performance in a way that would allow them to appreciate it on its own terms. Any or all are welcome to disagree with this, I don't really care.

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 09, 2015, 05:23:33 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2015, 03:01:23 PM
Well, without getting into a whole big thing, since we already know each others thoughts on the matter; I would like to hear it played on instruments of the time, and in the venue where it was premiered. Is there some harm that comes from that? Is it not actually the overactive imagination of someone who doesn't appreciate that idea which demands having a cadre of gossipers in the audience to make it really realistic? Who in their right mind actually thinks it is supposed to be a recreation of the original, farts and all? This is simply not the basis for rational criticism.

Anyway, I have read your posts for years. I think your real problem with the 'HIP' movement stems from thinner textures, faster (or slower) tempos than you learned and loved, and the general disregard for more traditional playing styles. All of which is perfectly reasonable and above criticism.

I suspect there were people back in the early times who made claims which, in retrospect, were not only grandiose but actually undesirable. Some people have never been able to get past those stupid claims and approach period performance in a way that would allow them to appreciate it on its own terms. Any or all are welcome to disagree with this, I don't really care.

8)

You claim to understand my "real problem," but I think you have in the past misrepresented some of my thoughts on the matter, and probably continue to do so. I don't feel like getting into a "whole big thing" at the moment either, having spent close to an hour writing a single post on Shakespeare today, but I have no objection to period instruments or even period venues. (I love Bach on the harpsichord, as in Hantai's Goldberg Variations. I love Staier's Diabellis, and Penelope Crawford's 109-110-111. One of my regrets is having skipped a performance of Magic Flute in Prague at the same tiny theatre where Don Giovanni was first performed. The multiple dance orchestras at the end of Act One of DG make sense only in a small theatre. Another regret is the absurdity of hearing Handel's Orlando in a large NYC hall where the period instruments were barely audible.) I differentiate HIP and pseudo-HIP, pseudo-HIP being a performance that seems to me at variance with credible research and/or musical common sense.

We had a "whole big thing" about a fairly recent (i.e., not "back in the early times") Beethoven concerto performance that I consider egregiously pseudo-HIP. For one thing, although Beethoven left several examples of what he considered a cadenza - that is, a complex musical elaboration that showed both the performer's virtuosity and his skill at composition/improvisation, this performance substituted 30 seconds of meaningless noodling. For another, the performance used a single player each for Violin 1 and Violin 2, but multiple performers on the other strings. But historical documents (I think Neal Zaslaw has done a lot of work on this, IIRC) show that multiple performers were always used for the violins, which only makes sense so that they balance the rest of the ensemble. A disposition like 4-4-3-2-1 makes sense (in other words, I have no objection to "thinner textures," only to imbalanced ones), and even in today's large orchestras the same proportions are standard, such as 12/12/10/8/6. A glance at the score of the Pastoral Symphony makes it indisputable that at least 3 cellos were needed, probably more, so gauge accordingly. And nothing is going to convince me that Beethoven intended the 1st violin part in measures 119-122 of the Emperor finale to be inaudible, as it is on the recording in question when set against multiple woodwinds.

Any or all are welcome to disagree with this, I don't really care. But I would appreciate it if my position were represented accurately.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Pat B on October 09, 2015, 10:31:28 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 09, 2015, 01:05:53 PM
Very well put, and gets to my own problems with much of the HIP movement. Do we want to hear the performance Beethoven would have preferred, or the one he had to settle for?

That seems to be a common critique of HIP, but I think that trying to recreate whatever he had to settle for is a small fraction of the movement. Certainly Gardiner's symphony recordings, for example, were performed at a very high technical level, in contrast to reports of some performances from Beethoven's lifetime.

For piano music, my understanding is that Beethoven was constantly anticipating the next step in terms of compass and volume -- but not necessarily to the point of the Model D, especially regarding decay time. And indeed, it's not unusual for Beethoven PI performances to use a fortepiano that's a few years newer than the piece.

For other instruments, who knows? Maybe he would have preferred valved horns and synthetic-core strings, the latter played with nonstop vibrato. Or maybe he wouldn't have.

I'm like Gurn in that I like the sound of the old instruments, and I like the playing styles of some HIP performers. And I'm thankful that I have this choice.

I think the specific recording you alluded to is an anomaly.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 10, 2015, 01:02:05 AM
I would have to revisit that recording but I remember being somewhat disappointed when Staier's Diabellis came out. They hovered between fairly ordinary (most of the time) and somewhat gimmicky (sound effects, including clashing cymbals? or so that I tend to find funny at best the first time around...).

I have no use for the minimalist recordings of piano concerti and overall think that piano concerti work better with modern instruments because the period piano is simply too weak against an orchestra and a small/minimal orchestra might restore the balances but is not compatible with the grandeur of the larger Mozart concerti (at least K 459, 466, 467, 482, 491 and 503) and all of Beethovens (except maybe #2).
I really think that composers back then were in a fix with piano+orchestra. On the one hand, Mozart and Beethoven obviously made concerti "symphonic" in style (and we know that they like large orchestras for symphonies if they could afford them). On the other hand period pianos would be overwhelmed easily by an orchestra that could transport the large scale grandeur and march-like pomp of e.g K 467 or LvB #1.

So while I usually prefer PI for baroque and very often in many works of Haydn and Mozart, I do make an exception for piano (+orchestra). I admit that I often do not like the sounds of the historic pianos either, but as these sounds are varying wildly, this is not the main reason.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: North Star on October 10, 2015, 05:18:56 AM
Quote from: Pat B on October 09, 2015, 10:31:28 PMFor piano music, my understanding is that Beethoven was constantly anticipating the next step in terms of compass and volume -- but not necessarily to the point of the Model D, especially regarding decay time. And indeed, it's not unusual for Beethoven PI performances to use a fortepiano that's a few years newer than the piece.
I wonder - certainly the Waldstein sonata no. 21 op. 53 in C was a showcase of what his new instrument could do. And certainly he didn't write music that wasn't fully tailored to the instruments at his use when he was playing concerts himself. The Hammerklavier sonatas are again so called because they were written for the his new piano. That said, he did of course make requests for piano makers and demand more of pretty much everything from the pianos, and certainly reached for the limits, or beyond them, when writing for pretty much any instrument. Perhaps something is lost if there is no more struggle in the music. Perhaps not.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on October 14, 2015, 01:25:43 AM
(Cross post from the WAYLT thread)

I recently added to my library two historical recordings of the Beethoven´s complete set of violin sonatas and since they are less famous or known than they should be (a GMG search reveals next to nothing on them) a summary of my thoughts about them might perhaps be of interest.

So I´m starting right off with this recording, made at about the same time Schnabel recorded the piano sonatas, namely 1935-36

[asin]B00007FKQ2[/asin]

It´s surprising on three accounts.

First, the sound. Apart from the hiss, which is minimal anyway and does not detract in the least from the enjoyment even when played through headphones (which I did), there is nothing to complain. Good old mono with unbelievable clarity in both the violin and the piano. Ward Marston´s transfer might have something to do with that, of course.

Second, the team. Kreisler needs no introduction, but Franz who? Don´t google him, I did it already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Rupp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Rupp)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTY3WDQ1MA==/z/rsMAAOSwAHZUMy5o/$_35.JPG)

Actually, the producer Fred Gaisberg (yes, himself!) wanted to match Kreisler with Rachmaninoff, but Sergey Vassilievich was too expensive. (Now, think about that: Kreisler and Rachmaninoff playing Beethoven sonatas!). Harold Bauer was briefly considered too, but eventually they ended up with Rupp. Not the best choice, but certainly an inspired one: if his playing is apt and committed (he clearly tried his best, and indeed succeeded) but obviously not at the level of Kreisler´s, at least he does nothing to spoil the party and there is nothing to be blamed for.

Third, the performance. Given the above, this must be a heavily Romanticized, sparklingly pyrotechnics-ladden one-man-show, right? Wrong. Dead wrong, actually. It´s poised, elegant and flowing. Kreisler is free, indeed unaware, of any technical difficulties in the score and plays with the ease and sweetness that were his trademarks. There is not the slightest hint at affectation or mannerism. There is lyricism, there is poetry, there is humor, there is insouciance and there is force and passion --- exactly where they are called for and in the right proportion. The overall approach is classical, no-nonsense, affectionate and direct and it works wonders especially in the earlier sonatas. And --- did I mention the clarity and purity of tone that Kreisler manages to get from his violin as efortlessly as if he took a stroll in the park one sunny afternoon?

This is Beethoven for the ages and it deserves a far better fate. It is THE perfect complement to Schnabel´s legendary recording alluded to in the beginning. (And is available on Youtube). Don´t run, fly!

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on October 14, 2015, 03:14:34 AM
It's a crime that recording techniques at that time couldn't properly capture Kreisler.  Magnificent violinist.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on October 14, 2015, 03:16:37 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on October 14, 2015, 03:14:34 AM
It's a crime that recording techniques at that time couldn't properly capture Kreisler.  Magnificent violinist.

The sound on this is surprisingly good though. Probably as close as it gets to properly capturing Kreisler.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: John Copeland on March 15, 2016, 03:05:51 AM
Busy compiling my own wee lossless ultimate dream Beethoven Symphony set, but some help would be appreciated.
Here is how it is developing at the moment, but from learned members it would be nice to hear suggestions so I can listen and modify if necessary.  Especially the 9th, hells fire, I would choose Furtwanglers wartime recording, but I yearn for it to be better sounding (but just as intense), so more modern interpretations are under scrutiny...


Solti - 3
Abbado - 4
Klieber - 5
Karajan 1963 - 6
Thielmann - 7

Thats all so far.   ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 15, 2016, 08:54:30 AM
I am currently rereading "Beethoven: Impressions by his Contemporaries" edited by O G Sonneck. Anyone read it?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: zamyrabyrd on March 22, 2016, 04:52:57 AM
I just picked this up from another thread on pitch.
https://www.youtube.com/v/UnhlQUBsd6g

It is quite incredible how the opening chords of the Eroica are not only different with regard to tuning, but other aspects such as voicing and what I found to be a strange kind of rebound in the sound, present in most but not with Toscanini in two of his recordings of it where there are two beats silence and not an echo, evident in a few others. With regard to voicing, when the strings are prominent, one sometimes hears a G on top although the high flutes should cover it with the high Eb (but probably outnumbered by the the violins) I find this super fascinating. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Que on April 23, 2016, 11:13:27 PM
Quote from: Scots John on March 15, 2016, 03:05:51 AM
Busy compiling my own wee lossless ultimate dream Beethoven Symphony set, but some help would be appreciated.
Here is how it is developing at the moment, but from learned members it would be nice to hear suggestions so I can listen and modify if necessary.  Especially the 9th, hells fire, I would choose Furtwanglers wartime recording, but I yearn for it to be better sounding (but just as intense), so more modern interpretations are under scrutiny...


Solti - 3
Abbado - 4
Klieber - 5
Karajan 1963 - 6
Thielmann - 7

Thats all so far.   ???

I think Furtwängler's post war recording from Luzern is even better, and it is in excellent sound:

[asin]B00NG4B7PY[/asin]

A fully satisfactory 9th is extremely rare.... Jochum succeeded with the RCO (Universal/Decca) as did Kletzki with the Czech Philharmonik (Supraphon). Both come in complete cycles that I can strongly recommend. Notable cycles on period instruments are in my view Frans Brüggen (Universal/Decca, coupled with an amazing recording of the violin concerto) and Jos van Immerseel (Zig Zag).

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on April 24, 2016, 12:23:47 AM
Quote from: Que on April 23, 2016, 11:13:27 PM


A fully satisfactory 9th is extremely rare.... Jochum succeeded with the RCO (Universal/Decca) as did Kletzki with the Czech Philharmonik (Supraphon). Both come in complete cycles that I can strongly recommend. Notable cycles on period instruments are in my view Frans Brüggen (Universal/Decca, coupled with an amazing recording of the violin concerto) and Jos van Immerseel (Zig Zag).

Q

I'd add Fricsay  (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/05/29/boxing-classical-music-ferenc-fricsay-on-deutsche-grammophon/#f4d87c43cc82)and Abbado/Salzburg (http://www.forbes.com/sites/laursonpieler/2014/03/02/in-memoriam_claudio_abbado_discography/#30fd6a5840b7) to that list.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on April 24, 2016, 06:31:34 AM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on March 15, 2016, 08:54:30 AM
I am currently rereading "Beethoven: Impressions by his Contemporaries" edited by O G Sonneck. Anyone read it?

Yes!  It's quite good.

(http://s31.postimg.org/qc8z7wot7/Beethoven_Library.jpg)

^These, along with the extensive article in The New Grove, and a rather long piece by Paul Henry Lang in Music In Western Civilization ç1941 (rev. 1969), are my primary research material on Ludwig Van.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Heck148 on April 24, 2016, 03:24:28 PM
Quote from: Que on April 23, 2016, 11:13:27 PM
A fully satisfactory 9th is extremely rare....

Reiner/CSO - magnificent
Toscanini/NBC is great, also...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 24, 2016, 05:17:14 PM
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on March 15, 2016, 08:54:30 AM
I am currently rereading "Beethoven: Impressions by his Contemporaries" edited by O G Sonneck. Anyone read it?

I imagine his contemporaries have.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Que on April 25, 2016, 10:56:51 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 24, 2016, 12:23:47 AM
I'd add Fricsay  (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/05/29/boxing-classical-music-ferenc-fricsay-on-deutsche-grammophon/#f4d87c43cc82)and Abbado/Salzburg (http://www.forbes.com/sites/laursonpieler/2014/03/02/in-memoriam_claudio_abbado_discography/#30fd6a5840b7) to that list.

The Fricsay has a strong reputation.
Oddly enough, I don't know it. Should fix that some time soon... :)

Anyway, I would also want to make some additional recommendations.
Despite a unsuccessful 9th, the other symphonies make Bruno Walter's NY cycle more than worthy for an honorable mention:

[asin]B005HO1WG0[/asin]

Also, I noticed that Klemperer wasn't on Scots John's short list.
My favorites are the "earlier" (mono) recordings, just before Klemperer turned into the granite statue in Mozart's Don Giovanni...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Us0491ChL.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-hKb07H4L.jpg)


Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 25, 2016, 11:39:36 PM
The Fricsay is very good. My slight caveats are substandard sound in the finale (this may have improved in newer remasterings, on my Dokumente disc from the mid-1990s the finale sounds very different from the earlier movements with singers "in your face" and the orchestra sounding small and distant, briefly the finale sounds somewhat like his earlier recording of Fidelio which is marred by similar problems) and a very slow slow movement.

Another favorite ist Karajan from the early 60s. A little "slick" but very strong soloists and overall a good balance of everything, I think (and I am usually not a great fan of this conductor)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on April 26, 2016, 12:13:06 AM
My favourite 9th is probably Herreweghe's (HM not Pentatone) but the person who asked that question probably won't like it. Also, soloists are not perfect. Fricsay is a decent all-rounder, though has slow tempi and DFD. I like it and I never like grand manner slow tempo Beethoven. Ever. Except Fricsay. So I guess that's a recommendation of sorts >.>

I'm curious about modern 9ths. Chailly was a disappointment after his otherwise good cycle (main reason I didn't bother to get the set). Herreweghe Pentatone I don't know, nor any of the kids (Järvi, Thielemann, etc). The quality of singers nowadays is probably higher than ever before, so you'd think there'd be some good 9ths, even if most of the good singers prefer to spend their time focusing on early music instead (with occasional left-field albums of Poulenc or Cage or fado or showtunes).

edit: by "modern" I basically mean "21st century"
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Drasko on April 26, 2016, 12:27:17 AM
The 9th that I keep returning to for the last couple of years is Schmidt-Isserstedt. Meat and potatoes, but first class meat and potatoes. 

(http://st.cdjapan.co.jp/pictures/l/06/04/UCCD-7204.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on April 26, 2016, 12:40:33 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/6JVp0i4Xe7ncy2qk5ozXR_z3zyE=/fit-in/600x519/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2616247-1293425974.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on April 26, 2016, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: Que on April 25, 2016, 10:56:51 PM
The Fricsay has a strong reputation.
Oddly enough, I don't know it. Should fix that some time soon... :)

Anyway, I would also want to make some additional recommendations.
Despite a unsuccessful 9th, the other symphonies make Bruno Walter's NY cycle more than worthy for an honorable mention:

[asin]B005HO1WG0[/asin]

I recently got that one!  $:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on April 26, 2016, 05:00:18 PM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 26, 2016, 12:40:33 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/6JVp0i4Xe7ncy2qk5ozXR_z3zyE=/fit-in/600x519/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2616247-1293425974.jpeg.jpg)

Never cared for Gardiner.  What is your take on him for this set?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on April 26, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
My 9th:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cwq9wFoXL._SX466_.jpg)

You feeling me, Gurn?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on April 26, 2016, 05:44:20 PM
Among the recent Ninths, none stand out for me.  I prefer the Chailly cycle overall.  I don't like the second Bruggen because of the male soloists: bad stumble there.   My favorite one off is
[asin]B000001GN4[/asin]
Even though it is 79 minutes...79 minutes of glory.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on April 26, 2016, 05:54:48 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 26, 2016, 05:44:20 PM
Among the recent Ninths, none stand out for me.  I prefer the Chailly cycle overall.  I don't like the second Bruggen because of the male soloists: bad stumble there.   My favorite one off is
[asin]B000001GN4[/asin]
Even though it is 79 minutes...79 minutes of glory.

Slow Beethoven is BEAST when done right and Bohm is a master of pulling this off.  I may have to snag this one.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on April 26, 2016, 07:21:02 PM
Much prefer the original Bohm DG cycle. Shrugs.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on April 26, 2016, 10:06:26 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 26, 2016, 05:44:20 PM
Among the recent Ninths, none stand out for me.  I prefer the Chailly cycle overall.
I liked the Chailly cycle (Though never quite enough to buy it.) until I got to the 9th, actually. Then the heavy vibrato of the soloists basically killed it.

Currently I'm thinking about Järvi, who has some pretty good soloists (although Matthias Goerne has either lost a lot of his voice since the Harnoncourt St. Matthew Passion, or that recording was just an exceptional fluke) and at least seems to be reasonably good in the rest of the symphonies, though there are no full tracks available for sampling. (30-second samples sound as good as Chailly, but no idea if he holds the structure together as well.) I also need to find Dohnányi again. The CDs disappeared at some point, probably in a move, and I haven't got digitisations. I remember the 9th being good apart from the singers.

Herreweghe II is not really to my taste (nor the rest of the cycle); he's gone a bit Celibidache on us, but with more grace and less power than Mr. Weird Lips himself. On the other hand I suspect for some people that's a recommendation.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on April 27, 2016, 03:26:25 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 26, 2016, 07:21:02 PM
Much prefer the original Bohm DG cycle. Shrugs.

What is the timing on the original?

Grabbed this one off the shelf today for a spin.  Great reviews, but have not listened to it in an age and cannot remember feelings about it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91hjUzUumML._SX466_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on April 27, 2016, 06:15:09 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 27, 2016, 03:26:25 AM
What is the timing on the original?

I have the 1977 "Beethoven Edition" of the previous 1972 boxed-set of this 1970-recorded version of the 9th with Boem/Vienna Philharmonic.
The DG labels have no timings listed, neither does the mini-sheets inside the box - the 1972 version had a different booklet, but no timings either.
But according to Discogs for the French edition:

Symphony No. 9 In D Minor, Op. 125
O    Allegro Ma Non Troppo, Un Poco Maestosos                           16:40
P1    Molto Vivace                                                                 12:10
P2    Adagio Molto E Cantabile                                                16:30
Q    Presto (Mit Schlusschor Aus Schillers Ode "An Die Freude")   27:04
                   Lyrics By – Schiller*

I'm sure these timings are accurate.
   

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ritter on April 27, 2016, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 26, 2016, 05:44:20 PM
   My favorite one off is
[asin]B000001GN4[/asin]
Even though it is 79 minutes...79 minutes of glory.
A big +1 on this...a glorious perfomance. It's as if Böhm, in the twilight of his career, said; "I've been conducting this for decades. Now you're going to hear it the way I really want it to sound". Stunning how, with these very distended tempi, the work does not lose any of its tension and shape. Exquisite orchestral response IMHO. And even Plácido Domingo's German pronunciation is better than usual here...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on April 27, 2016, 08:21:35 AM
Quote from: ritter on April 27, 2016, 08:17:19 AM
A big +1 on this...a glorious perfomance. It's as if Böhm, in the twilight of his career, said; "I've been conducting this for decades. Now you're going to hear it the way I really want it to sound".

On the other hand, it may be that his powers were failing in his very old age, and this led to a less-successful performance than the glorious 1970 recording - which, either here or there, seems to be the ones the critics prefer.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 08:27:33 AM
Note that the 1972 is already fairly slow, especially the last movement if that playing time is correct.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on April 27, 2016, 08:49:22 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on April 27, 2016, 06:15:09 AM
I have the 1977 "Beethoven Edition" of the previous 1972 boxed-set of this 1970-recorded version of the 9th with Boem/Vienna Philharmonic.
The DG labels have no timings listed, neither does the mini-sheets inside the box - the 1972 version had a different booklet, but no timings either.
But according to Discogs for the French edition:

Symphony No. 9 In D Minor, Op. 125
O    Allegro Ma Non Troppo, Un Poco Maestosos                           16:40
P1    Molto Vivace                                                                 12:10
P2    Adagio Molto E Cantabile                                                16:30
Q    Presto (Mit Schlusschor Aus Schillers Ode "An Die Freude")   27:04
                   Lyrics By – Schiller*

I'm sure these timings are accurate.

My issue divides the last movement in two, track five starting with the bass recitative (O Fruende nicht diese Tone)

Timings as given in the track listing differ slightly, but not significantly

16'46
12'08
16'38
6'43
20'26. (=27'09 for the full movement)

Total time is given as 72'41.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on April 27, 2016, 10:39:52 AM
Current #morninglistening (https://twitter.com/search?src=typd&q=%23morninglistening)...

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00CHBD2BY.01.L.jpg)
L.v. Beethoven, Symphony No.2
Vienna Symphony Orchestra / H.d.Roos
Gramola (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CHBD2BY/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CHBD2BY/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00CHBD2BY/goodmusicguideuk-21)
1. 16:20 | Adagio molto - Allegro con brio:
2. 15:18 | Larghetto
3. 05:33 | Scherzo (Allegro)
4. 09:12 | Allegro molto


The tempos and timing of this release are what makes it special. In a way it's the sound to go along with his book on Beethoven... which is wacky and wildly entertaining and incredible at times... and all kinds of other things.


Successful recent Ninths are Vanska and Dausgaard, I'd say. Not counting the 1990s Salzburg Abbado as "recent" seems only fair. :-)
But I don't listen that intently to the Ninth anymore (on record) as I did, back when the classics jumped out at me... so that may have something to do with it.
Agree that the Jaervi Ninth is better on paper than in sound, but it's still pretty good.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 11:16:30 AM
Is this again some kind of "half tempo" idea? The only normal sounding bit is the slow intro of the first movement (unfortunately the fast section is not previewed)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on April 27, 2016, 12:47:11 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 11:16:30 AM
Is this again some kind of "half tempo" idea? The only normal sounding bit is the slow intro of the first movement (unfortunately the fast section is not previewed)
There is a thread about it (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22013.msg728732.html#msg728732).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on April 27, 2016, 01:20:31 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 11:16:30 AM
Is this again some kind of "half tempo" idea? The only normal sounding bit is the slow intro of the first movement (unfortunately the fast section is not previewed)

Well, it's more than that... it's a general idea that for the 20+ works (The SQ4ts and the Symphonies that had been written by then, and the Septet) for which LvB left metronome markings, he deliberately f-ed them up... not randomly but with a system. He despised and sued the guy who invented/plagiarized the metronome, Johann Nepomuk Mälzel (who had hitherto cheated him out of a considerable amount of money when presenting Beethoven's then most popular symphony, Wellington's Victory, as his own in London). He was strongly encouraged to help Mälzel's metronome, which had become a political matter (Austrian innovation over Italian nomenclature), and ceded to the request... but wanted to ridicule Mälzel's invention -- thinking that no right-minded person would find those markings convincing at all.

Now, from today's perspective he was a.) wrong and b.) the claim's absurd. The truth is: Until 20 years ago, the metronome markings of Beethoven were widely ignored and even ridiculed. Even Simon Rattle performed the Fifth (perhaps in a stunt or earnestly) in the "prescribed tempo" to show how it was absurd. (Only to find: "That sounded pretty good, actually... didn't it?")

Our way of hearing music has changed and tended to an ever-faster way of playing these works... and eventually the metronome markings that are fast (the slow ones are still largely ignored) were caught up with.

The book is full of rather wild claims and there are parts that make me roll my eyes... some are inconveniently... well... plausible. And the rest is just fascinating story-telling the kind of which you don't find in books about composers, usually. Political and social circumstance and connections of the time all considered and laid out in a riveting manner. Exactly what makes his Mozart book the best Mozart book I've read... certainly/at least as sheer reading-pleasure is concerned.

Then there are particular claims pertaining to the Second Symphony and Don Giovanni / Magic Flute alliterations that also played into it... and the short of it is that if one deciphers the 'code' (the tempos are basically transposed up or down by a certain relation...) and hears the tempos as they would have been likely (esp. strong on interrelations of tempi within a work), and tries to not listen with ears used to 70 years of playing it randomly ignoring the markings and 20 years of observing them, then something comes out that reveals a beauty all of its own. Yadda yadda.

There are other takes, including this from the American Mathematical Society, that comes to similar but less musically-explained suggestions: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/was-beethovens-metronome-wrong-9140958/?no-ist (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/was-beethovens-metronome-wrong-9140958/?no-ist)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 01:40:13 PM
Kolisch's article on "Tempo and Character in Beethoven's music" (arguing for taking the fast metronome markings seriously) is from the 1940s. That's about 70 years ago. Almost all the markings by Czerny from the 1830s-40s for pieces by Beethoven square well with Beethoven's own metronome marks.

There are interpretations by Coates, Toscanini, Scherchen, Leibowitz etc. from the 30s-60s close to most of the metronome markings of the symphonies.

E.g. in the 5th symphony the prescribed tempi for the last two movements are often followed; the last movement is actually one of the few that is sometimes played faster than Beethoven indicates! The ones for the first two are very fast but also possible and faster interpretations are about 10% slower or so which is close enough, I think. It's certainly possible that an almost deaf composer made a few mistakes and heard something a little too fast in his head. But some markings (e.g. 60 for a bar in the Eroica first movement) could already back then be easily checked without a metronome. And again, almost all scherzi and a few other movements are "traditionally" played as fast as Beethoven prescribed or even faster (e.g. the finale of the 7th is often cranked up to about 80 or faster for the bar instead of Beethoven's 72).

What's more: proportional tempi or something like that seems precisely what Beethoven wanted to get rid of and therefore he was happy about the metronome (his quarrel with Maelzel had nothing to do with the metronome but with rights on Wellington's victory). He explicitly wrote that "tempi ordinari" were a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on April 27, 2016, 01:45:46 PM
This reminds me of my previous posts about conductor Sir George Smart:

Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2011, 03:55:00 AM
I've recently unearthed, at the British Library, a trove of concert programs kept by the English conductor Sir George Smart, active in the 1810s-30s, who was a major Beethoven advocate, leading the English premiere of Beethoven's Ninth and at one point traveling to Vienna to ask the composer about the proper tempos for all the symphonies. Beethoven composed a short unpublished canon in his presence (16th September 1825). For concerts he conducted, Smart not only kept the programs, but made little notations of some of the timings of the works which most interested him, as well as how long the interval was and when everybody got to go home.

These two struck me as interesting:

5th of May, 1823. Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] "32 M. No repeats."
March 23, 1829: Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] "All through but no repeats 32 ½ minutes."

Karajan '62 (no repeats) is 36 minutes. Norrington LCP (w/ repeats) is 40, Bruggen (also with repeats) 42, and the ultimate romantic, Barenboim, takes 45.

On March 1, 1830, the Sinfonia in C minor was 26 minutes, though in 1827 it had been 31 (no mention of repeats). In March 1833, "Sinfonia No. VII." was "40 m." including "Slow movement Enc'd:" and a marginal note informs us that the encore was partly because the symphony was to be followed by an aria from Cosi, but the soprano arrived very late indeed, "just after we began the Encore of the...Beethoven" . Apparently the reason for her delay was that she was also performing in another concert at another theatre that night!

It's very interesting seeing how programs were constructed. One night in 1825 began with Beethoven's 4th ("in Bb 31 minutes"), which was immediately followed by "La ci darem"! And here's the second half of the March 7, 1825 Philharmonic Society concert:

Sinfonia in C minor - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beethoven
Aria, "Il mio tesoro," (Il Don Giovanni) - - - - - - - Mozart
Introduction and variations, Corno obligato - - - Schuncke
Scena, "Softly sighs" (Der Freischutz*) - - - - - - Weber
Overture, Preciosa - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Weber
[*sung in English. All German arias were translated; there are numerous arias sung from a Mozart work called "Il Flauto Magico" ;D , and also see below]

Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

Oddly, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says "Smart conducted the first English performance of Beethoven's ninth symphony at the Philharmonic Society in 1826," an error, as it was actually in March 21, 1825. Smart's handwritten note says, "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia (M.S.) with Vocal Finale - Beethoven. Composed expressly for this Society _ (Italian Words [!]) Formed 2d Act of the Concert." The performance "Began 22m past 10" and the concert "over 26m past 11" - Smart's note says "1 H 04 M." In my view, this puts the "Beethoven's Ninth is supposed to only be 45 minutes long" theory to bed, for although it is true that Smart only met Beethoven to consult on tempos later that year, I'm not sure you can get down to 45 minutes by faster speeds alone, especially given that Smart himself was quite a snappy conductor, by the looks of it.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 11:35:41 PM
Thanks for the quotation. I vaguely remember that I saw this before and they were sometimes deemed faulty because of the ominous 45 min. for the 9th. I recall that there are other sources speaking of more than or "about and hour" for the 9th.
(Even an extremely fast 9th, skipping the scherzo repeats would be something like 13 - 9 - 10 -  22, so closer to 55 than 45 (I think Zinman gets in at 59 min with some repeats in the scherzo)

Still 32 min for the 6th is very fast. Scherchen is among the fastest and takes 34:22, but he observes a repeat in the 4th movement I think (although he skips another one and the one in the first mvmt) and one could maybe save another minute each in the 2nd and 5th (where he is not so extremely fast).

26 min for a repeat-free 5th is also (barely) possible. ca. 5-5:30 for the first (Norrington: 6:28 with repeat) 8:30-9 for the Andante (Norrington 8:43) and about 12-13 for repeat free 3+4 (finale is about 8-8:30 w/o repeat, the 3rd about 5-5:30 min with some repeats)

One does not have to be pedantic about this markings to take them seriously; apart from Beethoven's deafness there are also indications that tempi might have been more flexible (as well as for the opposite) but for me the most convincing thing is that the markings given by Czerny, Hummel, Moscheles in the 1830s-40s for works by Beethoven (as well as Haydn and Mozart) are almost throughout in line with fast tempi (including rather flowing slow movements). And none of them was deaf and they were renowned pianists and teachers who might have suggested challenging but not completely outlandish tempi. (For slow solo piano movements there is also the argument with the quick decay of notes on 1800s-1820s fortepianos)

(There are a few mistakes, e.g. in the 9th the alla marcia is marked at half speed erroneously and there is very probably also a mistake for the trio of the second movement.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on April 27, 2016, 11:45:39 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 27, 2016, 10:39:52 AM
Successful recent Ninths are Vanska and Dausgaard, I'd say.
Tried them both! I think we must have very different interests where it comes to singers, as the wide and constant vibrato of the soloists was enough for me to discount them despite their other merits.
Quote
Agree that the Jaervi Ninth is better on paper than in sound, but it's still pretty good.
I've sampled it more extensively along with other recordings in the cycle. Tempi are on the slow side, and I don't really know why that tenor is yelling at me, I have never knowingly wronged him. But Goerne is actually in fairly good shape (though not amazing) and the ladies are fine. So this is basically a good 9th. (haven't checked out the other movements, lol, but no modern recording is less than good in those three, it's the finale that makes or breaks it generally) The other modern 9th I'm curious about (but wary) is Mackerras.

Actually most of the Järvi cycle excerpts I listened to are pretty much exactly how I like Beethoven to be played. The only real objections I've come across so far are that tenor and a passage in the first movement of the Eroica (about 30 seconds in) where he seriously underplays/shortens the sforzandi. Nothing to do with the speed—compare the best Eroica (Scherchen), which is faster, and gives them full weight. Or the other best (Gardiner), which is about the same, and shortens them without underplaying them. Järvi maybe listening to Norrington a bit much ;P But this has rapidly become a cycle I'm seriously considering buying, seeing as I don't have a complete one on modern instruments, haha. (And it complements Gardiner—absolutely score-focused, sublimated—and Norrington—absolutely interpreted, wilful—by being somewhere in between.) I'll have to listen in full to a few key movements before deciding though.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on April 28, 2016, 12:18:34 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 01:40:13 PM
Kolisch's article on "Tempo and Character in Beethoven's music" (arguing for taking the fast metronome markings seriously) is from the 1940s. That's about 70 years ago. ---

I'm not arguing this didn't happen. I'm arguing that this was widely ignored until much later.

Quote from: Jo498 on April 27, 2016, 01:40:13 PMronome markings seriously) is from the 1940s. That's about 70 years ago. ---

What's more: proportional tempi or something like that seems precisely what Beethoven wanted to get rid of ...He explicitly wrote that "tempi ordinari" were a thing of the past.

There is only one quote in Beethoven that I know of that reads like that... and that part sounds like scathing sarcasm, of which Beethoven seems to have been fond.

Much like he was more likely being sarcastic than straight when he wrote that he agreed to put an end to the barbarism of using Italian denominations for tempos and that he'd stop from now one ever to use them again. (In a 1817 letter to Hofrat von Mosel.) Of course Beethoven continued to use Italian tempo markings for the rest of his life; his one move toward German (which was what the Maelzel-supporting, government sponsored movement was largely about) was op.101... which had been years before and a one-off. Mosel was a musical mediocrity who was somehow placed in charge of musical matters in the Habsburg Reich and wanted to jam the metronome down everyone's throat and of course he needed Beethoven to sign off on it, as the world's leading composer. Schuller is an amazing composer and writer... but how he didn't sense at least the possibility if not total obviousness of the dripping sarcasm, I can't explain.

Mosel had written an article earlier in 1817 that plausibly reads like a side-swipe at Beethoven, namely that [I'm paraphrasing] "...it happens even to the greatest Composers that, while they compose -- a process during which they may be distracted -- they do not quite remember the tempo which they had initially thought of for their work... and then add middle movements which, in the tempo chosen for their main theme, now don't create the desired effect.

Now if only the composer were to let the metronome run during his act of composition, he would hear the beats without looking up from his paper and the tempo would remain with him throughout and he would be safe from the danger to have to rework -- or even put aside -- an otherwise successful composition because he forgot the original tempo.
"

If that's not a farce... Mosel more or less publicly suggesting that Beethoven would succeed more likely if he only had a metronome which he could have tick away while he was composing, then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on April 28, 2016, 03:18:26 AM
Quote from: Bogey on April 26, 2016, 05:17:50 PM
My 9th:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cwq9wFoXL._SX466_.jpg)

You feeling me, Gurn?

Well, this is one of my all-around faves!  The entire cycle is excellent.

There are so many great choices, and YouTube offers some classics, e.g.:

https://www.youtube.com/v/qkXqefWFzpY
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on April 28, 2016, 07:48:04 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on April 28, 2016, 12:18:34 AM
I'm not arguing this didn't happen. I'm arguing that this was widely ignored until much later.

There is only one quote in Beethoven that I know of that reads like that... and that part sounds like scathing sarcasm, of which Beethoven seems to have been fond.

Much like he was more likely being sarcastic than straight when he wrote that he agreed to put an end to the barbarism of using Italian denominations for tempos and that he'd stop from now one ever to use them again. (In a 1817 letter to Hofrat von Mosel.) Of course Beethoven continued to use Italian tempo markings for the rest of his life; his one move toward German (which was what the Maelzel-supporting, government sponsored movement was largely about) was op.101... which had been years before and a one-off. Mosel was a musical mediocrity who was somehow placed in charge of musical matters in the Habsburg Reich and wanted to jam the metronome down everyone's throat and of course he needed Beethoven to sign off on it, as the world's leading composer. Schuller is an amazing composer and writer... but how he didn't sense at least the possibility if not total obviousness of the dripping sarcasm, I can't explain.

Mosel had written an article earlier in 1817 that plausibly reads like a side-swipe at Beethoven, namely that [I'm paraphrasing] "...it happens even to the greatest Composers that, while they compose -- a process during which they may be distracted -- they do not quite remember the tempo which they had initially thought of for their work... and then add middle movements which, in the tempo chosen for their main theme, now don't create the desired effect.


Now if only the composer were to let the metronome run during his act of composition, he would hear the beats without looking up from his paper and the tempo would remain with him throughout and he would be safe from the danger to have to rework -- or even put aside -- an otherwise successful composition because he forgot the original tempo.
"

If that's not a farce... Mosel more or less publicly suggesting that Beethoven would succeed more likely if he only had a metronome which he could have tick away while he was composing, then I don't know what is.

Would Beethoven have been able to hear the metronome?  That swipe may have some extra sting in there.

Granted he could have looked up and judged the metronome speed visually,  but if Beethoven couldn't hear the thing,  how reliable would his own suggested metronome speeds be?

Some of the late quartets at least have German instructions--not actually tempo markings, more dynamic and emotional markers ("Heileger Dankgesang...", etc.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on April 28, 2016, 07:54:51 AM
Paavo Jarvi is my second favorite newish cycle, behind Chailly.  I favor Chailly because he seems to dig deeper in the darker emotional side of the symphonies.  But AMW gives the reasons why I like Jarvi.


If you want Dohnanyi's cycle, it is probably easiest to get in as this cheapie series of double CDs
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81G2oTv8ruL.jpg)
The rest are available in the same format (search Amazon for "Everybody's Beethoven" and they should all come up)
I have some in that format and some as individual CDs.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2016, 09:44:51 AM
Beethoven was not completely deaf before 1818 or so (and maybe not even then). And even later he followed music somehow visually. E.g. he attended rehearsals of some of the late quartets with the Schuppanzigh ensemble and discussed stuff with them or even made tempo or articulation changes (I have read one such report about op.127, don't remember exactly what was the issue there. There are no metronome numbers by Beethoven for the late quartets, unfortunately because especially the variation movements in op.127 and 131 with rather diverse variations and tempi varying from Adagio to allegretto within one movement are difficult in this respect)

As for the German tempo or expression remarks while only op.90 and 101 have them complete in German there are a few also in other pieces (e.g. "mit Andacht" at several places in the Missa solemnis).
But I don't think that with "tempi ordinari" he meant the problematic italian tempo words although he refrained using "scherzo" for some serious scherzo-type movements (e.g. 5th symphony) and added "ma serioso" for the "scherzo" in op.95. Rather, I think that he meant that he was not content with a few standard tempi and proportional relations, e.g. Allegro twice as fast as Andante or so.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on April 29, 2016, 08:09:45 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 28, 2016, 07:54:51 AM
Paavo Jarvi is my second favorite newish cycle, behind Chailly.  I favor Chailly because he seems to dig deeper in the darker emotional side of the symphonies.  But AMW gives the reasons why I like Jarvi.


If you want Dohnanyi's cycle, it is probably easiest to get in as this cheapie series of double CDs
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81G2oTv8ruL.jpg)
The rest are available in the same format (search Amazon for "Everybody's Beethoven" and they should all come up)
I have some in that format and some as individual CDs.

Good info, as I am putting the cycle together. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 04, 2016, 02:26:43 AM
Update: Also considering Chailly (1-8, since they're available as separate releases) and Leibowitz (that baritone is extremely wobbly.... but love the RPO oboes). And maybe re-acquiring at least some of Dohnányi, which has definitely gone missing. Still like Järvi's 9th, and like the rest of his cycle a fair amount, but idk—it doesn't always raise hairs. I don't like these symphonies enough to do lots of spot comparisons.

I should also eventually see if I've warmed up to Immerseel. I remember finding his set surprisingly unmoving a while back.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2016, 10:10:01 AM
This is an orchestration of op 111/ii apparently made by Beethoven

http://unheardbeethoven.org/mp3s/Beeth_op111_II_orch.mp3

The same website has his orchestrations of op 109-111. I think it's interesting, revealing in fact. It's like there's suddenly a connection between op 111/ii and the Pastoral Symphony which to me was a real surprise.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 10:35:50 AM
Quote from: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:12:18 AM
"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"  

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."  

          ~ Gustav Mahler



Wagner's statement is the epitome of lunacy, and Mahler's statement is simply untrue. Who in the world was Mahler? what did he already compose? Long extended rubbery interludes full of strident outbursts. I can think of a 100 composers that came after Wagner who were better then him, and I can think of a handful of composers who were greater then Beethoven. So Mahler's comments are simply wrong.

As for Wagner. If the value and meaning of God is so insignificant and low that he would dare to equate Him to mortal human beings, then we simply doesn't have the same definition of what God is. I think Wagner has no clue as to what God is.

As for Wagner's music: Pompous nationalistic strident whips that lash out at the listener, void of inspiration and grace.

As for Beethoven, yes he was a great composer, but Greatest he wasn't. Once, I used to believe that Mendelssohn was the Greatest composer of all time. Now, I know he wasn't, I just liked his music, that's all. There is no 'greatest' in music. This is not some chess competition where one is 'better' then the other one by beating him. Music is an expression of life, and to suggest that this expression and gift belonged only to a select few, is rather a shallow and elitist characterization of a beloved form of art.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on June 09, 2016, 10:42:23 AM
Hmmm.  ^ You're quite mad, you know.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 10:45:21 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on June 09, 2016, 10:42:23 AM
Hmmm.  ^ You're quite mad, you know.

The comments of those two unlikely friends are mad, in my opinion.
Wagner and Mahler, who would have thought?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 09, 2016, 12:48:47 PM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 10:35:50 AM
Wagner's statement is the epitome of lunacy, and Mahler's statement is simply untrue. Who in the world was Mahler? what did he already compose? Long extended rubbery interludes full of strident outbursts. I can think of a 100 composers that came after Wagner who were better then him, and I can think of a handful of composers who were greater then Beethoven. So Mahler's comments are simply wrong.

As for Wagner. If the value and meaning of God is so insignificant and low that he would dare to equate Him to mortal human beings, then we simply don't have the same definition of what God is. I think Wagner has no clue as to what God is.

As for Wagner's music: Pompous nationalistic strident whips that lash out at the listener, void of inspiration and grace.

As for Beethoven, yes he was a great composer, but Greatest he wasn't. Once, I used to believe that Mendelssohn was the Greatest composer of all time. Now, I know he wasn't, I just liked his music, that's all. There is no 'greatest' in music. This is not some chess competition where one is 'better' then the other one by beating him. Music is an expression of life, and to suggest that this expression and gift belonged only to a select few, is rather a shallow and elitist characterization of a beloved form of art.

Yawn. How tediously faux-outrageous.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 01:03:33 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 09, 2016, 12:48:47 PM
Yawn. How tediously faux-outrageous.

Ok whatever...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:09:59 PM
I see Saul's up to his old tricks again. (Serious yawn right about now)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on June 09, 2016, 07:21:07 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 09, 2016, 10:10:01 AM
This is an orchestration of op 111/ii apparently made by Beethoven

http://unheardbeethoven.org/mp3s/Beeth_op111_II_orch.mp3

The same website has his orchestrations of op 109-111. I think it's interesting, revealing in fact. It's like there's suddenly a connection between op 111/ii and the Pastoral Symphony which to me was a real surprise.

The website does not say the orchestrations were made by Beethoven. It says they were made by a bloke called Gerd Prengel.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 07:29:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:09:59 PM
I see Saul's up to his old tricks again. (Serious yawn right about now)

You have a counterargument please present it here, but to describe what I said as 'old tricks' makes no sense.
Yes I exaggerated a little to make a point, but I strongly believe that those two statements by Wagner and Mahler are totally wrong.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:35:04 PM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 07:29:23 PMYou have a counterargument please present it here, but to describe what I said as 'old tricks' makes no sense. Yes I exaggerated a little to make a point, but I strongly believe that those two statements by Wagner and Mahler are totally wrong.

They're only wrong because you don't like either composer and have an axe to grind. If you don't like Mahler or Wagner, that's okay, but to claim they're wrong for sharing a statement you don't agree with doesn't make them wrong, it makes them look like anyone else with an opinion and whether you want to admit it or not, both of these masters have carved out a piece for themselves in music history.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 07:40:18 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:35:04 PM
They're only wrong because you don't like either composer and have an axe to grind. If you don't like Mahler or Wagner, that's okay, but to claim they're wrong for sharing a statement you don't agree with doesn't make them wrong, it makes them look like anyone else with an opinion and whether you want to admit it or not, both of these masters have carved out a piece for themselves in music history.

I would have said the same thing if Mendelssohn had said it, and he is my favorite composer. Anyone who throws out such ridiculous limitations as those statements saying only 'he' and there is 'non other' is a wrong statement, period. But you can disagree, thats ok.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:43:01 PM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 07:40:18 PM
I would have said the same thing if Mendelssohn had said it, and he is my favorite composer. Anyone who throws out such ridiculous limitations as those statements saying only 'he' and there is 'non other' is a wrong statement, period. But you can disagree, thats ok.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree, but the empty rhetoric about both Mahler's and Wagner's music was absolutely uncalled for and has no place in this thread. Like I said, you had an axe to grind and I personally don't appreciate your 'outburst.'
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 07:53:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:43:01 PM
Okay, we'll agree to disagree, but the empty rhetoric about both Mahler's and Wagner's music was absolutely uncalled for and has no place in this thread. Like I said, you had an axe to grind and I personally don't appreciate your 'outburst.'

I can say whatever I want about anyone's music, pull yourself together, this is an open forum. You don't like something, move on.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 07:53:51 PM
I can say whatever I want about anyone's music, pull yourself together, this is an open forum. You don't like something, move on.

There's no questioning that you can't say what you want, where you want, but there are such things as being tactful, and respectful, of a composer whose thread you've hijacked with your ignorant comments. Perhaps you should pull yourself together and keep your comments about Mahler and Wagner to yourself. All you're doing is alienating yourself from folks who do like their music and, more importantly, like Beethoven's music enough to not feel the incessant need to mouth off about composers he/she doesn't care for.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 08:04:58 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 07:59:59 PM
There's no questioning that you can't say what you want, where you want, but there are such things as being tactful, and respectful, of a composer whose thread you've hijacked with your ignorant comments. Perhaps you should pull yourself together and keep your comments about Mahler and Wagner to yourself. All you're doing is alienating yourself from folks who do like their music and, more importantly, like Beethoven's music enough to not feel the incessant need to mouth off about composers he/she doesn't care for.

Respect?

I owe respect to Wagner or Mahler?

And I hijacked the thread because I criticized the opening statements of those two composers?
Last I checked, I can have my say about the topic. And I have said it, and I'm not sorry at the least that you dislike my comments. I don't go around measuring my words so that I would be loved by all. I say my true feelings about a given topic or a statement knowing full well that some may not like it. But to make my comments populist? you can forget about that.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 08:06:54 PM
Look, Saul, it's clear you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Back on ignore you go...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 08:15:41 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2016, 08:06:54 PM
Look, Saul, it's clear you're not understanding anything I'm saying. Back on ignore you go...

You have a great dislike for those who don't confirm to your line of thinking. Would be nice to grow out of this, its a great limitation trust me to dislike and not tolerate alternative point of view and different lines of thinking. But if you only want to hear whatever/whoever you agree with, then by all means hit that ignore button. You'll be doing a disservice to yourself not me.

Mahler and Wagner only human beings making grandiose and uncalled for pathetic statements that have no base in reality. Comparing mortals to God, and cutting out anyone who was before Beethoven and after Wagner. Two very untrue and ridiculous statements and it was a great opportunity for me to come here and expose their stupidity. Composers are not saints, and they are not geniuses in every field.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PaulR on June 09, 2016, 08:53:00 PM
Not that I should give any credibility to Saul's argument (or Wagner, in general), but to read that as saying Beethoven is equal to god is the delusion, especially without the context in which Wagner probably meant it in.  Yes, the statement is a bit hyperbolic, but after the Ninth Symphony, there was a feeling among the more Romantically inclined composers that the Symphony (as they knew it) reached the climax after the Ninth and nothing could really come after it in the same fashion. (and Wagner, more or less, called symphonic music dead).  Berlioz's reaction to the Ninth was to add the Program to the Symphony in Symphony Fantastique, and Wagner tried to do to opera what Beethoven did to the Symphony.  In that sense, Beethoven's influence might have been "god-like", but I don't read the quote as saying "Beethoven=God."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 09:10:53 PM
Quote from: PaulR on June 09, 2016, 08:53:00 PM
Not that I should give any credibility to Saul's argument (or Wagner, in general), but to read that as saying Beethoven is equal to god is the delusion, especially without the context in which Wagner probably meant it in.  Yes, the statement is a bit hyperbolic, but after the Ninth Symphony, there was a feeling among the more Romantically inclined composers that the Symphony (as they knew it) reached the climax after the Ninth and nothing could really come after it in the same fashion. (and Wagner, more or less, called symphonic music dead).  Berlioz's reaction to the Ninth was to add the Program to the Symphony in Symphony Fantastique, and Wagner tried to do to opera what Beethoven did to the Symphony.  In that sense, Beethoven's influence might have been "god-like", but I don't read the quote as saying "Beethoven=God."

Wagner's comment was pretty clear. So we have to take it at face value and criticize his statement. There was no 'explanation' or 'commentary' offered here by Wagner himself, so we are left with the statement. To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 09, 2016, 09:24:12 PM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 09:10:53 PM
Wagner's comment was pretty clear. So we have to take it at face value and criticize his statement. There was no 'explanation' or 'commentary' offered here by Wagner himself, so we are left with the statement. To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.



If you want to criticize it, at least use the whole quote. What he said was:
Quote"I believe in God, Mozart and Beethoven, and likewise their disciples and apostles; - I believe in the Holy Spirit and the truth of the one, indivisible Art; - I believe that this Art proceeds from God, and lives within the hearts of all illumined men; - I believe that he who once has bathed in the sublime delights of this high Art, is consecrate to Her for ever, and never can deny Her; - I believe that through Art all men are saved."

― Richard Wagner
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PaulR on June 09, 2016, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 09, 2016, 09:24:12 PM
If you want to criticize it, at least use the whole quote. What he said was:
My reading of the quote, was wrong, so I apologize for that.  (I was too lazy and tired to figure out the whole quote)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 09, 2016, 09:24:12 PM
If you want to criticize it, at least use the whole quote. What he said was:

You have just made my point, and as I wrote in this previous paragraph:

To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2016, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: orfeo on June 09, 2016, 07:21:07 PM
The website does not say the orchestrations were made by Beethoven. It says they were made by a bloke called Gerd Prengel.

Ah, thanks.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2016, 05:13:02 AM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 09:32:03 PM
You have just made my point, and as I wrote in this previous paragraph:

To me it sounds harsh, arrogant and absolutely delusional to equate God to any living human being who is practicing a secular form of art. Its like trying to add a religious element, a sort of divine element to something that has nothing to do with religion per say. Lets keep the two separate please. God is God, and mortals are mortals, once you mix up the two you create a blunder and this is an act of lunacy.

Beethoven Ninth Symphony is OK. Its not a big deal at all. Its music. Lets get realistic here and stop creating false idols from people, don't rob them of them humanity and limitations. The Ninth Symphony is beautiful precisely because its human and not of the heavenly realm. Its is beautiful to our souls because its speaks to our common humanity. But when you unnecessarily purposely aggrandize it more then it aught to be, you rob it from its true value.

"Heaven" is a construct of the collective imagination, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. Music is a structured series of sounds, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. So, music = heaven. QED.  Friday morning philosophy makes me sick...  ???

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2016, 05:30:32 AM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 10:35:50 AM
Wagner's statement is the epitome of lunacy, and Mahler's statement is simply untrue. Who in the world was Mahler? what did he already compose? Long extended rubbery interludes full of strident outbursts. I can think of a 100 composers that came after Wagner who were better then him, and I can think of a handful of composers who were greater then Beethoven. So Mahler's comments are simply wrong.

Saul, you wrote that and then replied to MI with this:

Quote from: 28Orot on June 09, 2016, 08:15:41 PM
You have a great dislike for those who don't confirm to your line of thinking. Would be nice to grow out of this, its a great limitation trust me to dislike and not tolerate alternative point of view and different lines of thinking.

Maybe you should take you own advice ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 10, 2016, 05:38:59 AM
Wagner was all for "false idols" and he is far from his worst in the passage quoted because his favorite idol was himself ;)
But it is not very enlightening to try to understand Wagner or that quotation from the stance that combining God, Mozart and Beethoven in such a sentence will take the name of the Lord in vain and create false idols.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 06:32:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2016, 05:30:32 AM
Saul, you wrote that and then replied to MI with this:

Maybe you should take you own advice ;D

Sarge

What does this have to do with anything? the difference is staggering...think about it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 06:33:09 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 10, 2016, 05:38:59 AM
Wagner was all for "false idols" and he is far from his worst in the passage quoted because his favorite idol was himself ;)
But it is not very enlightening to try to understand Wagner or that quotation from the stance that combining God, Mozart and Beethoven in such a sentence will take the name of the Lord in vain and create false idols.

Yes good point
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PaulR on June 10, 2016, 07:09:43 AM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 06:32:26 AM
What does this have to do with anything? the difference is staggering...think about it.
So when you question others thinking, they shouldn't get mad because it's something they need to grow out of.  But when people question your beliefs, we should conform to your beliefs.  Got it.

Did Wagner have a big ego?  Yes.  Was he Nationalistic?  Yes.  But to criticize him over him supposedly elevating Beethoven God-hood by you taking a quote out of the context of his musical era is unfair and, ultimately, ignorant.  You take a quote out of context and claim that's all we have to go by.  That we have take it at face value, which we cannot.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 07:48:05 AM
Quote from: PaulR on June 10, 2016, 07:09:43 AM
So when you question others thinking, they shouldn't get mad because it's something they need to grow out of.  But when people question your beliefs, we should conform to your beliefs.  Got it.

Did Wagner have a big ego?  Yes.  Was he Nationalistic?  Yes.  But to criticize him over him supposedly elevating Beethoven God-hood by you taking a quote out of the context of his musical era is unfair and, ultimately, ignorant.  You take a quote out of context and claim that's all we have to go by.  That we have take it at face value, which we cannot.

I'm sorry but if you can't understand the difference I'm not going to explain to you something so elementary. And the quote in its entirety was posted here and it only supported my criticism.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PaulR on June 10, 2016, 08:12:16 AM
Do you even know where the quote was lifted from?  Do you know the context?  Do you even care?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 10, 2016, 08:16:25 AM
Quote from: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 07:48:05 AM
I'm sorry but if you can't understand the difference I'm not going to explain to you something so elementary. And the quote in its entirety was posted here and it only supported my criticism.

Actually, you seem to have missed some of the nuance of the quote and thus the entirety of it has passed you by. This is because you insist on reading it literally (black and white), which prevents any discussion if this is the only way you will read it (which is what you wrote, and I am taking you at your word since it was so emphatic and repeated).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 08:32:35 AM
To the others: Could we just stop feeding the troll and maybe hope it goes away? This is absurd and it is decidedly not what most (any?) of us read the Beethoven thread for.
It wasn't ever a serious argument to begin with and any serious engagement with it will be met with nonsense...
(The Block-function helps immensely in not being tempted by the aggressively non-sensical bait.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 08:32:35 AM
Could we just stop feeding the troll and maybe hope it goes away? This is absurd and it is decidedly not what most (any?) of us read the Beethoven thread for.
It wasn't ever a serious argument to begin with and any serious engagement with it will be met with nonsense...

Ah, too bad I'm not a conformist, then I would be loved and liked by all, but would be robbed from my freedom of speech...

Ah... thanks but no thanks, will continue expressing my views...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 10, 2016, 09:44:35 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 08:32:35 AM
To the others: Could we just stop feeding the troll and maybe hope it goes away? This is absurd and it is decidedly not what most (any?) of us read the Beethoven thread for.
It wasn't ever a serious argument to begin with and any serious engagement with it will be met with nonsense...
(The Block-function helps immensely in not being tempted by the aggressively non-sensical bait.)

I would no more want to censor Saul than I would want to eliminate the music of Dittersdorf.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 10:14:08 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 10, 2016, 09:44:35 AM
I would no more want to censor Saul than I would want to eliminate the music of Dittersdorf.

No one (well, not I, for sure) wants to do either. You are buying the absurd self-victimizing twist of his response which has little to do (as always, when responding to others) with what I wrote.
I merely suggested that deliberately non-constructive and flaming conduct (a.k.a. "trolling") and the gleefully projected inability to communicate is best ignored in such a forum (or, if involuntary, best tended to by professionals in the required field... and still ignored by the forum.) There's no censorship in ignoring "Saul". Only sanity.

P.S. I kind of dig Dittersdorf.

Speaking of Beethoven: Anyone else heard the new Berlin/Rattle cycle yet? Apart from not fitting on any shelf ever made for CDs (the basic presumptuousness of these Berlin releases), I've read two reviews on MWeb; one crappy shill and one decent blow-by-blow of the DVD. So far, I've listened to a few symphonies only, not overly attentive, and found it good... certainly better than the lackluster Sibelius. But no opinion has yet been formed. (That Abbado's Last Concert, though... my goodness. What a tedious bore. If I didn't know Abbado's "Italian" Symphony, I wouldn't have guessed that Mendelssohn (never mind Berlioz!) could be performed so soporifically.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 10:28:33 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 10:14:08 AM
No one (well, not I, for sure) wants to do either. You are buying the absurd self-victimizing twist of his response which has little to do (as always, when responding to others) with what I wrote.
I merely suggested that deliberately non-constructive and flaming conduct (a.k.a. "trolling") and the gleefully projected inability to communicate is best ignored in such a forum (or, if involuntary, best tended to by professionals in the required field... and still ignored by the forum.) There's no censorship in ignoring "Saul". Only sanity.

P.S. I kind of dig Dittersdorf.

Speaking of Beethoven: Anyone else heard the new Berlin/Rattle cycle yet? Apart from not fitting on any shelf ever made for CDs (the basic presumptuousness of these Berlin releases), I've read two reviews on MWeb; one crappy shill and one decent blow-by-blow of the DVD. So far, I've listened to a few symphonies only, not overly attentive, and found it good... certainly better than the lackluster Sibelius. But no opinion has yet been formed. (That Abbado's Last Concert, though... my goodness. What a tedious bore. If I didn't know Abbado's "Italian" Symphony, I wouldn't have guessed that Mendelssohn (never mind Berlioz!) could be performed so soporifically.)

Everything I have said until now is absurd, self victimizing , puritan, outrageous, and incomprehensible...

This tells me that I'm on the rite direction. The cliche that the truth must be found in the majority has been proven wrong time and again...

You continue with calling names, and I will continue speaking my mind...

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 10, 2016, 10:35:43 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 10:14:08 AM
You are buying the absurd self-victimizing twist of his response which has little to do (as always, when responding to others) with what I wrote.

I would say not. But to connect the thread, one must trace it back to other of my comments.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: 28Orot on June 10, 2016, 11:35:05 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2016, 05:13:02 AM
"Heaven" is a construct of the collective imagination, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. Music is a structured series of sounds, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. So, music = heaven. QED.  Friday morning philosophy makes me sick...  ???

8)

Feels like heaven, but then there is 'The Heaven'. Wagner mixed everything up he took his love for music and idolized it. I find it reprehensible, and illogical.



Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 10, 2016, 08:46:22 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 08:32:35 AM(The Block-function helps immensely in not being tempted by the aggressively non-sensical bait.)

I'm way ahead of you here, Jens. After what transpired on this thread the other night, I had no choice but to ignore him. There's no reasoning with someone who seems like their sole mission is to spout out inaccuracies and unwarranted 'opinions' like a faucet with a broken handle.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 10, 2016, 08:47:35 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 10, 2016, 10:14:08 AMSpeaking of Beethoven: Anyone else heard the new Berlin/Rattle cycle yet? Apart from not fitting on any shelf ever made for CDs (the basic presumptuousness of these Berlin releases), I've read two reviews on MWeb; one crappy shill and one decent blow-by-blow of the DVD. So far, I've listened to a few symphonies only, not overly attentive, and found it good... certainly better than the lackluster Sibelius. But no opinion has yet been formed. (That Abbado's Last Concert, though... my goodness. What a tedious bore. If I didn't know Abbado's "Italian" Symphony, I wouldn't have guessed that Mendelssohn (never mind Berlioz!) could be performed so soporifically.)

I haven't heard Rattle's newest Beethoven (hell, I haven't even heard his older cycle). Perhaps you could tell me what your favorite Beethoven symphony cycle is and why? Would be curious to get an opinion here from you.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on June 10, 2016, 11:02:52 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 10, 2016, 08:46:22 PM
I'm way ahead of you here, Jens.

I wasn't. I was right behind.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2016, 05:47:21 AM
Quote from: orfeo on June 10, 2016, 11:02:52 PM
I wasn't. I was right behind.

;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 11, 2016, 06:32:37 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 10, 2016, 08:47:35 PM
I haven't heard Rattle's newest Beethoven (hell, I haven't even heard his older cycle). Perhaps you could tell me what your favorite Beethoven symphony cycle is and why? Would be curious to get an opinion here from you.

Hmm... mine are probably Jaervi, Vanska, Abbado/Rome (one of the few cases where my rapid cooling on Abbado over the last years has not taken hold), Barenboim, Gardiner... HvK 70 is interesting, in that it is the most "Karajanesque" of them all, without yet making it ludicrous... I like Kletzki... and I need to listen to Kubelik a little closer. Oh, Chailly, I thought was rather good. A bit the modern successor to the Barenboim set, with its dark, deeply stained wood... but more agile and more aggressive. More anon.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mirror Image on June 11, 2016, 07:00:07 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 11, 2016, 06:32:37 AM
Hmm... mine are probably Jaervi, Vanska, Abbado/Rome (one of the few cases where my rapid cooling on Abbado over the last years has not taken hold), Barenboim, Gardiner... HvK 70 is interesting, in that it is the most "Karajanesque" of them all, without yet making it ludicrous... I like Kletzki... and I need to listen to Kubelik a little closer. Oh, Chailly, I thought was rather good. A bit the modern successor to the Barenboim set, with its dark, deeply stained wood... but more agile and more aggressive. More anon.

Thanks for the feedback. I listened to a little bit of Karajan's early DG cycle this morning and was floored by his Pastoral. This is my kind of Beethoven performance. I like the big-boned, brawny, and sumptuous interpretation from HvK. I've heard some HIP-style performances and don't really like them, although Harnoncourt's cycle with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe seemed to make a good impression on me earlier on.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 04:39:41 PM
I'm interested in getting an HIP type Beethoven symphony cycle that has moderate tempi.

(Yes, I know you're getting to say "HIP has to follow the metronome markings", I just just wondering if there was a cycle that didn't).

:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 21, 2016, 06:50:04 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 04:39:41 PM
I'm interested in getting an HIP type Beethoven symphony cycle that has moderate tempi.

(Yes, I know you're getting to say "HIP has to follow the metronome markings", I just just wondering if there was a cycle that didn't).

:)
Easy: Bruggen. Preferably on Philips, but he was not a speed demon in any of his recordings. The period-instrument orchestra is full of character, too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on June 21, 2016, 06:57:40 PM
Brüggen on Glossa is too slow to be "moderate" for the most part.

Immerseel is moderate to a notable extent as far as I know
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 21, 2016, 08:15:23 PM
Thanks for the recommendations. I'll look into them.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 21, 2016, 10:50:34 PM
To my recollection Brüggen/Philips is diverse. The Eroica is slow but some others are fairly fast. Harnoncourt (modern instruments except some brass, but rather HIP in other respects) was probably considered fast when it came out 25 years ago but mostly moderate in hindsight (Eroica quite fast, Pastoral very broad).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 21, 2016, 10:56:55 PM
Quote from: amw on June 21, 2016, 06:57:40 PM
Brüggen on Glossa is too slow to be "moderate" for the most part.

Immerseel is moderate to a notable extent as far as I know
His 5th is on the fast side. I haven't heard the rest. But they used to be on youtube if you want to sample them.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 21, 2016, 11:53:51 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 21, 2016, 10:50:34 PM
To my recollection Brüggen/Philips is diverse. The Eroica is slow but some others are fairly fast. Harnoncourt (modern instruments except some brass, but rather HIP in other respects) was probably considered fast when it came out 25 years ago but mostly moderate in hindsight (Eroica quite fast, Pastoral very broad).

This is exactly right; Bruggen's Eroica is very considerably slower than, say, Karajan (adjusting for repeats not taken) -- more along the lines of Barenboim. The rest isn't as slow, though. I need to re-listen to that set to give it a fair shake, I think.

After reading Hare de Roos fascinating, sometimes loopy, but always engrossing book about Beethoven, I'm more and more convinced that the metronome markings are not worth the paper their written on; too slow and too fast or not relating to each other; riddled with mistakes, either real or perceived, that have both been "fixed" by subsequent editors or are being adhered to. It's such a mess an everyone just tweaks or follows the metronome markings that they currently care for (including the whole HIP crowd), that it's just best to see what works for oneself musically and not attach too much worth to the 'spirit of the letter'.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 12:51:56 AM
I disagree wrt the metronome marks. There are a few errors and they might be generally a little too fast but overall they seem pretty consistent (especially taking into account the dozens of suggestions by Czerny and others published in the 20 years after Beethoven's death). They should or need not be followed slavishly but they should not be simply ignored either.
Sure, there is a lot of rhetorics about de-Wagnerizing Beethoven involved (and the "Haydnization" or "Mendelssohnization" of some very lightweight HIP readings does not have to be more convincing) but it can hardly be denied that there was a tradition doing almost precisely that and it included very broad and flexible tempi.

The more interesting question for me that seems historically very difficult or impossible to answer is flexibility. The fast tempo for the Eroica makes sense at the beginning but despite the lack of any further indication it seems an open question whether e.g. the "new theme" in the development section should/could not be taken considerably slower for expressive purposes. I am in favor of that and there are several passages I find "rushed" in many fast+straight readings (e.g. the last few bars of the exposition where many conductors slow down a little) although I generally love the sweep of the fast ones.

On the other hand Beethoven's music often has a "super-bar"-rhythm, sometimes made explicit in directions like "ritmo di tre/quattro battute", that seems to require both fairly swift and not too flexible tempi.
The theme of the Eroica first movement should be felt in the moderate beat of whole bars, not in very fast quarters, I think.

Unfortunately, there are relatively few Beethoven interpretations that are "fast and flexible". Most are slow and flexible (e.g. Furtwängler) or fast and steady (Toscanini or most HIP). Mengelberg sometimes fits the fast and flexible and  (sometimes) Harnoncourt and Brüggen as well. (Not sure about examples from chamber music or piano solo)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 01:01:30 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 12:51:56 AM
I disagree wrt the metronome marks. There are a few errors and they might be generally a little too fast but overall they seem pretty consistent ...

...The fast tempo for the Eroica makes sense at the beginning but despite the lack of any further indication it seems an open question whether e.g. the "new theme" in the development section should/could not be taken considerably slower for expressive purposes. I am in favor of that and there are several passages I find "rushed" in many fast+straight readings (e.g. the last few bars of the exposition where many conductors slow down a little) although I generally love the sweep of the fast ones...

Actually, this reads much more like you agree with me. :-) Everyone either takes the metronome markings serious or not... and then deviates from them to their own liking or to match the Zeitgeist.


[One need not even make the leap that de Roos makes, who suggests that Beethoven deliberately published ridiculously and "obviously flawed" metronome markings. (For reasons, more or less believably, that de Roos elaborates one.) But his research on how these markings were duly ignored in Vienna, where the tradition of tempo ordinario was strong and how they were followed in early performances in Berlin (with the result that his 9th was loved in Vienna and torn to pieces in Berlin) is interesting, at least.]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 05:49:27 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 21, 2016, 11:53:51 PM
This is exactly right; Bruggen's Eroica is very considerably slower than, say, Karajan (adjusting for repeats not taken) -- more along the lines of Barenboim. The rest isn't as slow, though. I need to re-listen to that set to give it a fair shake, I think.

After reading Hare de Roos fascinating, sometimes loopy, but always engrossing book about Beethoven, I'm more and more convinced that the metronome markings are not worth the paper their written on; too slow and too fast or not relating to each other; riddled with mistakes, either real or perceived, that have both been "fixed" by subsequent editors or are being adhered to. It's such a mess an everyone just tweaks or follows the metronome markings that they currently care for (including the whole HIP crowd), that it's just best to see what works for oneself musically and not attach too much worth to the 'spirit of the letter'.

Here's Harke de Roos plodding through the slow movement of #2 in 15 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edRYODUzgAg

And more below, where we are told that Harke de Roos would like to "record all B's symphonies and thereby rescue his honor." Judging from the nonsense on this video, one can only hope that Beethoven's honor remains imprisoned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhD6Zx6FgxM

Personally, I will take Beethoven's incorrect tempos over Harke's correct ones; and the suggestion that Beethoven deliberately falsified the metronome marks (despite some problems with them, most notably in the 9th) has as much credibility as the theory that Marlowe (or Edward de Vere, or Francis Bacon, or Anne Hathaway, or Queen Elizabeth) actually wrote Shakespeare, or that Donald Trump is simply putting on an act.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 06:20:58 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 05:49:27 AM
Here's Harke de Roos plodding through the slow movement of #2 in 15 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edRYODUzgAg

And more below, where we are told that Harke de Roos would like to "record all B's symphonies and thereby rescue his honor." Judging from the nonsense on this video, one can only hope that Beethoven's honor remains imprisoned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhD6Zx6FgxM

Personally, I will take Beethoven's incorrect tempos over Harke's correct ones; and the suggestion that Beethoven deliberately falsified the metronome marks (despite some problems with them, most notably in the 9th) has as much credibility as the theory that Marlowe (or Edward de Vere, or Francis Bacon, or Anne Hathaway, or Queen Elizabeth) actually wrote Shakespeare, or that Donald Trump is simply putting on an act.

Well, the proof, for once, isn't in the (hearing of the) pudding, in this Second... although it's not as bad as it's made out to be. The fallout of his book is in any case not his main argument, which remains questionable at the very least, but all the surrounding information that is meticulous and deserving of every and any attention. I do wish he had (or could have) written about Beethoven without the metronome-issue at heart; it would be the best book about the composer. Alas, everyone is inclined to think he's a crackpot.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 06:31:29 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 06:20:58 AM
it would be the best book about the composer.

How so? Better than Tovey, better than Kerman, better than Lockwood, better than Burnham, better than Solomon, better than Kinderman, better than Rosen? Pretty big claim there.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2016, 06:39:05 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 06:20:58 AM
Alas, everyone is inclined to think he's a crackpot.

L'idée fixe  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 22, 2016, 07:31:31 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 06:20:58 AM
Well, the proof, for once, isn't in the (hearing of the) pudding, in this Second... although it's not as bad as it's made out to be.
Having heard this recording, may I just say that it is without doubt the worst performance of the Second to ever reach my personal eardrums.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 08:02:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2016, 07:31:31 AM
Having heard this recording, may I just say that it is without doubt the worst performance of the Second to ever reach my personal eardrums.

Sounds like a pretty strong recommendation!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 08:40:30 AM
Not having access to that book it does sound even more crackpottish than that older theory (Reetze Talsma and Wehmeyer) that the metronome markings were exactly at double speed because one "back-and-forth" of the pendulum would have been one beat (not one back, one forth).

The metronome was a new device. Why should Beethoven have come up with a mischieveous plot to confuse everyone but publicly praise the importance of the metronome? There was no establishment with the metronome to piss off.

The other thing is that there are plenty of documented cases of non-deaf composers in the late 19th or 20th century that revised metronome markings up to 30-50% after performance or for later editions. Usually, but not always, from faster to slower.
So I am also wary of Kolisch's idea that Beethoven's tempo markings are a perfectly consistent and highly differentated system with only a few trivial oversights or copying errors.
But within reasonable error bars (10-15%) most of them are reasonable indications and they fit very well with indication by Czerny or Moscheles for Beethoven's piano sonatas from the 1830/40s. (Why would someone like Czerny not have commented on Beethoven's markings if there was some suspicion of a "coded" system? If even musicians close to Beethoven and pupils weren't in on the secret, what could have been the point?)

For me it seems clear that most of the obvious deviations in some performing traditions have nothing to do with "playability" but with either a general disliking of the composer telling one how to play and mostly with an idea that slower and more expansive equals more "profound". (Some of them are not only ignoring the numbers but also tempo words, like allegretto in the "slow" 2nd movement of the 7th and similar cases.)
It's true that in general more attention to details and more flexibility is possible at slower tempi. But there are also aspects like "sweep", "swing" and the sheer excitement of a performer "on the edge" that is often not successfully conveyed by moderate tempi.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on June 22, 2016, 08:42:54 AM
Regarding the Metronome marks, it seems to me it would be worth while if someone would adhere to them strictly in a recording so we can judge for ourselves what we think of them.

On an unrelated matter, I stumbled across this:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/the-50-greatest-beethoven-recordings?utm_content=buffer6d631&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some of my absolute favorites are there, some are missing. Ironically, a Beethoven cycle by the now defunct label Naive is listed. Two of my three favorite symphony cycles (Immerseel and Karajan '77) are not there. My other favorite, Harnoncourt, is. Amusing in any case.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 09:07:10 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 22, 2016, 08:42:54 AM
Regarding the Metronome marks, it seems to me it would be worth while if someone would adhere to them strictly in a recording so we can judge for ourselves what we think of them.

Norrington attempted to do just that in his LCP recordings. The 2nd Symphony in particular, right at Beethoven's speeds, just zips along bubbly and lightly, and is for me the outstanding performance on the set. The fact that Harke can't play the violin runs cleanly on his piano only shows that Harke is not a very good pianist.

I don't have more time right now, but the two biggest metronome problems IMO are in the 9th, the trio to the scherzo and the tenor solo. And possibly the first movement to the Hammerklavier. But ignoring composer metronome markings is not unusual, and it's quite likely that composers change their minds years after the work was completed. It's fair to say also one may hear a tempo faster in one's head than in actual performance. Tchaikovsky is another composer whose metronome markings are routinely ignored. Set your metronome at 104 and tell me if you normally hear the first movement of #5 that fast. The third movement of #6 is often played much faster than the indicated mark. And don't even get me started on the last movement of that symphony, where Tchaikovsky's very carefully indicated tempo scheme is completely distorted, for example, in Lenny's DGG recording. (None of which means, however, that metronome markings aren't without their problems. But back to this later.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 02:08:01 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 06:31:29 AM
How so? Better than Tovey, better than Kerman, better than Lockwood, better than Burnham, better than Solomon, better than Kinderman, better than Rosen? Pretty big claim there.

Well, most entertaining... and most intriguing, because he draws on an immense knowledge of the political and economic realities of the time. And he's a darn good writer. His Mozart book is much better, still... but/and it's also a treatise on the political history of Austria / Europe at the time -- and how that influenced everything that went on in the word of culture. It's a hyperbole, claiming it would be "the best" book, of course, but it's very insightful... except it's a little hard to separate fact from assumption, which annoys the German within me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2016, 03:20:22 PM
I've always been taken by this theory about the metronome markings

http://www.hansgal.com/storage/writings/tempo.pdf
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2016, 04:43:10 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 22, 2016, 02:08:01 PM
Well, most entertaining... and most intriguing, because he draws on an immense knowledge of the political and economic realities of the time. And he's a darn good writer. His Mozart book is much better, still... but/and it's also a treatise on the political history of Austria / Europe at the time -- and how that influenced everything that went on in the word of culture. It's a hyperbole, claiming it would be "the best" book, of course, but it's very insightful... except it's a little hard to separate fact from assumption, which annoys the German within me.

What is this book you are talking about, Jens? Is it in English, for one thing? And possibly available in USA? Political history of Austria in Mozart's time is something I must have, although I don't care a damn about Beethoven's metronome. I always thought Maelzel made Beethoven's metronome wrong just to mess with him over the Panharmonicon / Battle of Wellington incident...  :D

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wakefield on June 22, 2016, 05:49:11 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2016, 04:43:10 PM
What is this book you are talking about, Jens? Is it in English, for one thing? And possibly available in USA? Political history of Austria in Mozart's time is something I must have, although I don't care a damn about Beethoven's metronome. I always thought Maelzel made Beethoven's metronome wrong just to mess with him over the Panharmonicon / Battle of Wellington incident...  :D

8)

It sounds compelling, indeed.

I think Jens is talking about Harke de Roos, Gurn.

These are his books: http://www.katharos-verlag.de/buch.html. Apparently, they haven't been translated into English.

[asin]B00CHBD2BY[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 06:09:44 PM
Quote from: Gordo on June 22, 2016, 05:49:11 PM
It sounds compelling, indeed.

I think Jens is talking about Harke de Roos, Gurn.

These are his books: http://www.katharos-verlag.de/buch.html. Apparently, they haven't been translated into English.

[asin]B00CHBD2BY[/asin]

How entertaining. Harke has other theories besides:

Die Dritte Symphonie, die ,,Eroica", wurde zum Andenken Mozarts komponiert.
Beethovens ,,Neffe" war in Wirklichkeit sein leiblicher Sohn.

The Eroica was composed in memory of Mozart.
Beethoven's "nephew" was really his own biological child.

::)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2016, 06:45:44 PM
Quote from: Gordo on June 22, 2016, 05:49:11 PM
It sounds compelling, indeed.

I think Jens is talking about Harke de Roos, Gurn.

These are his books: http://www.katharos-verlag.de/buch.html. Apparently, they haven't been translated into English.

[asin]B00CHBD2BY[/asin]

Ah, well I would need to have Harry come and read it to me, I guess...  :)  Thanks, Gordo.

Oh, good luck tonight at the football. If the rain ever stops. Chile v Argentina should be entertaining. :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wakefield on June 22, 2016, 08:31:16 PM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2016, 06:45:44 PM
Oh, good luck tonight at the football. If the rain ever stops. Chile v Argentina should be entertaining. :)

8)

Thanks! It was a rainy night in Chicago.

Now the final vs. Argentina.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 11:27:45 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 09:07:10 AM
Norrington attempted to do just that in his LCP recordings. The 2nd Symphony in particular, right at Beethoven's speeds, just zips along bubbly and lightly, and is for me the outstanding performance on the set. The fact that Harke can't play the violin runs cleanly on his piano only shows that Harke is not a very good pianist.
For the outer movements there are very fast interpretations of the 2nd by e.g. Toscanini and Reiner from the 1940s. The first movement has its shapes and phrases mostly in half and whole notes, so the tempo of 100 for half notes is only crazily fast if one thinks of it as 200 for quarters. Sure, a few flourishes are in very fast notes, but they are flourishes, turns etc. not real melodic/motivic shapes.

Quote
I don't have more time right now, but the two biggest metronome problems IMO are in the 9th, the trio to the scherzo and the tenor solo. And possibly the first movement to the Hammerklavier.
Some in the 9th have long been recognized as probable errors. The tenor solo might be a very fast dotted half=84 (which ist often reached in the instrumental fugato following the march) instead of the funereal dotted quarter=84) and the trio is also probably a copying mistake. Again, one reading, bar =116 (as before, only 2/2 instead of 3/4) seems too fast, the other one half note=116 too slow and neither makes a lot of sense with the accelerando from the 3/4 main section. Because accelerando to either the same or exactly double speed does not make a lot of sense. I once read that this could have been a dictation or copy error and Beethoven meant 160 for the half notes.

Quote
performance. Tchaikovsky is another composer whose metronome markings are routinely ignored. Set your metronome at 104 and tell me if you normally hear the first movement of #5 that fast.
This is fast. It's as fast as the (often played but sometimes a little more relaxed) 6/8 first movement of Beethoven's 7th. Which is "traditionally" a considerably more "dancing" and vivacious movement than the darker one in Tchaik 5th

I had not been aware of the fact until recently but e.g. Berlioz also uses Metronome markings in many works and the few I looked at (Fantastique and Harold) are also on the fast side and roughly consistent with what Beethoven considered fast, e.g. 150 for a fast allegro con brio or so.
(Schumann is apparently a somewhat problematic composer in this respects with diverse markings in different edition, the suspicion of Clara fiddling with some of them later on, but there are apparently also a few deemed way too fast or too slow and hardly ever played in practice.)

Historically, I think an important point is also that there are dances like the waltz that have a continuous tradition since Beethoven's time. And a viennese waltz is usually around 60 3/4-bars/minute. This agrees with metronome markings for waltz-like movements from early/mid 19th century works, e.g. "un bal" from the Fantastique has 63, I think.
Of course such parallels do not give exact tempi. But they would certainly show if the tempo markings were actually 50 or 100% off the intended tempo.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 11:43:40 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 22, 2016, 08:42:54 AM
Regarding the Metronome marks, it seems to me it would be worth while if someone would adhere to them strictly in a recording so we can judge for ourselves what we think of them.
There are by now many recordings of the symphonies with tempi at or very close to the metronome markings. Norrington has been mentioned (the first issues had the MM numbers printed on the backcover after each movement) but there are some problems in the 9th.
On modern instruments several of Scherchen's, Leibowitz', later Gielen's and Zinman's symphony recordings are also close. (Zinman is actually too fast in most of the scherzi I have heard... probably because those would seem too slow otherwise with his zippy first movements)

For the string quartets, try the Smithsonian for op.18 and the Emerson for the middle period works (including the notorious finale of op.59/3) But while in these pieces the tempi are often relaxed a little compared to the markings there is hardly a tradition of playing many movements considerably slower (like e.g the first movements of the 3rd, 6th or 9th symphonies). (There are no original markings for the late quartets which is a pity, especially in movements with many tempo changes like the variations in op.127 and 131.)

For the notorious op. 106, amw listed somewhere fast recordings. The fugue is usually played pretty close to the mark, often a little slower (say 136 instead 144), same for the scherzo. Fast first movements are by Schnabel and Korstick. The fastest slow movement by a major well known pianist (and quite close to the marking) is by Gulda.

There are no original markings for the other piano sonatas or the concertos, but we have some by e.g. Beethoven's pupil Czerny and many of them are roughly followed not that rarely although some, especially slow movements are often also played considerably slower. Overall, Gulda/Amadeo might be the one closest to these tempi in the sonatas. Also Kovacevich's EMI recordings.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2016, 12:30:32 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2016, 04:43:10 PM
What is this book you are talking about, Jens? Is it in English, for one thing? And possibly available in USA? Political history of Austria in Mozart's time is something I must have, although I don't care a damn about Beethoven's metronome. I always thought Maelzel made Beethoven's metronome wrong just to mess with him over the Panharmonicon / Battle of Wellington incident...  :D

8)

No, it's not in English yet... although he has been looking into the possibility of getting it translated. (I'd prefer his Mozart book to get translated, first, which I find works better as a book... and is totally fascinating reading. But I'd like to have endnotes included, to make sure everyone can separate fact from 'imagination', which isn't easily done at this point.) In any case, his theory (and mind you that any abbreviation of his theory will make it sound obviously less credible) is that Ludwig effed with the Metronome numbers to eff with Maelzel over the Panharmonicon / Battle of Wellington incident. Well, there's more to it, but that was the part that I bought or enjoyed contemplating. Beethoven trying to screw w/Maelzel to make his metronome look ridiculous... and people eventually taking the metronome markings seriously rather than noticing that some speeds absolutely don't work. (Well, people do still notice that, but simply do what they think is right. And it is not just too fast... Beethoven's markings get even more ignored where they strike us as too slow.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 01:02:17 AM
Which ones are too slow according to de Roos? Except for the already mentioned probably erroneous ones in the 9th symphony.
(I think the ones for the 9th should ALL be considered with suspicion because of difficult relationships in the finale and generally deafness etc.)

To my knowledge most of the Scherzi are often taken slightly faster but only within a few points, e.g. 126 instead of 116 for bars in the 9th symphony scherzo. The finales of the 7th and 5th are often taken at the marked tempo or a little faster, say 80 instead of 72 for bars in the 7th finale. But all these deviations are "in the ballpark" and not at all comparable to the 30-40% slowing down in the first movement of the Eroica or op.106 or half the indicated tempo for some sections of the adagio of the 9th.

I think op.106,i is also problematic (too fast, but not by as much as typical tempi around 100-112 would indicate, about 120-126 seems reasonable).
I didn't have the time but I wanted to compare pianists in this and other similarly indicated (allegro alla breve) Beethoven movements, namely the first movements of op.2/1, op.31/2 and op.81a. I think op.106,i should be roughly in the same tempo as the last two (op.2/1 somewhat slower).
Because in addition to the same tempo indication these also have thematic shapes in 8th notes (that is these are not mainly/merely fast notes accompaniment) and a generally somewhat similar character (I think). My anecdotal impression/recollection is that most pianists play op.106,i (considerably) slower than e.g op.31/2i. Obvious for those with a slow and majestic op.106 like Gilels but it seems also true for fast ones like Gulda.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 23, 2016, 02:01:09 AM
"Beethoven trying to screw w/Maelzel to make his metronome look ridiculous... and people eventually taking the metronome markings seriously rather than noticing that some speeds absolutely don't work. "

Sounds like a very roundabout way of getting back at Maelzel, especially as the danger would be people would distort Beethoven's works in the process.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 23, 2016, 03:50:28 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 22, 2016, 11:27:45 PM
Some in the 9th have long been recognized as probable errors. The tenor solo might be a very fast dotted half=84 (which ist often reached in the instrumental fugato following the march) instead of the funereal dotted quarter=84) and the trio is also probably a copying mistake. Again, one reading, bar =116 (as before, only 2/2 instead of 3/4) seems too fast, the other one half note=116 too slow and neither makes a lot of sense with the accelerando from the 3/4 main section. Because accelerando to either the same or exactly double speed does not make a lot of sense. I once read that this could have been a dictation or copy error and Beethoven meant 160 for the half notes.

The best explanation I have heard for the trio (and I forget who made it) theorizes that the tempo should remain constant for the quarter note. This means that if the main tempo is dotted half = 116 (quarter = 348), the trio becomes half = 174, which is obviously peppier than half = 116 but not so manic as whole = that same mark. I'm not as disturbed by the accelerando as you; one can accelerate and then return to an original tempo.

As for the tenor solo, Norrington takes the funereal 84 and Gardiner goes to the other extreme with dotted half = 84. Both sound wrong to these ears, though Gardiner preserves the pace of the original theme and therefore doesn't have to accelerate wildly in the fugato with an unmarked Più mosso. Most conductors I've heard take a tempo between these two, but after the solo concludes it's off to the races.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2016, 04:25:44 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 23, 2016, 02:01:09 AM
"Beethoven trying to screw w/Maelzel to make his metronome look ridiculous... and people eventually taking the metronome markings seriously rather than noticing that some speeds absolutely don't work. "

Sounds like a very roundabout way of getting back at Maelzel, especially as the danger would be people would distort Beethoven's works in the process.

Indeed, it does. It gets convoluted from there on. I don't buy it, but I'm fascinated by it and he raises so many questions in the process that seem very legitimate.

Quote from: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 01:02:17 AM
Which ones are too slow according to de Roos?

Will try to get back to you on that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2016, 04:58:12 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 23, 2016, 04:25:44 AM
Indeed, it does. It gets convoluted from there on. I don't buy it, but I'm fascinated by it and he raises so many questions in the process that seem very legitimate.

Will try to get back to you on that.

Thanks for your reply above, Jens. Interesting. I have to admit that I had no idea that friction between Beethoven and Maelzel was even contemplated by anyone else, I sort of made it up on the spot as I was writing because the idea was funny to me and fit with Beethoven's personality, especially by the mid 18'teens.  :-[   :-[  Oh well, just goes to show, there is nothing new under the sun. :D

8)

PS - I completely agree about the Mozart book needing translating first. I need stuff from the 1780's most of all.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on June 23, 2016, 07:39:29 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2016, 04:58:12 AM
Thanks for your reply above, Jens. Interesting. I have to admit that I had no idea that friction between Beethoven and Maelzel was even contemplated by anyone else, I sort of made it up on the spot as I was writing because the idea was funny to me and fit with Beethoven's personality, especially by the mid 18'teens.  :-[   :-[  Oh well, just goes to show, there is nothing new under the sun. :D

Beethoven tried to sue the *#( out of Maelzel and he wrote about him, in no uncertain words, to others. Those are some of the neat things that de Roos does: He snoops in every letter or historical document about references to OTHER things... and then puts them in context. That's why in the end, even a prima facie "crackpot" theory like: "Beethoven messed up his own metronome markings on purpose" becomes... well, if not plausible so at least worthy for giving some thought to.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2016, 08:13:40 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on June 23, 2016, 07:39:29 AM
Beethoven tried to sue the *#( out of Maelzel and he wrote about him, in no uncertain words, to others. Those are some of the neat things that de Roos does: He snoops in every letter or historical document about references to OTHER things... and then puts them in context. That's why in the end, even a prima facie "crackpot" theory like: "Beethoven messed up his own metronome markings on purpose" becomes... well, if not plausible so at least worthy for giving some thought to.

Ah yes, I have some vague memory of that. The only thing I really recall was a sort of copyright fight over Wellington's Victory. But snooping in historical documents often turns up the most interesting things imaginable, so more power to him.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 23, 2016, 09:46:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 22, 2016, 07:31:31 AM
Having heard this recording, may I just say that it is without doubt the worst performance of the Second to ever reach my personal eardrums.


I listened to the first movement only and I thought it was very bad. But not primarily because of tempi but because of the stiffness, the plodding stiffness of it. Does he not believe in rubato in classical style or something?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:11:11 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 23, 2016, 03:50:28 AM
The best explanation I have heard for the trio (and I forget who made it) theorizes that the tempo should remain constant for the quarter note. This means that if the main tempo is dotted half = 116 (quarter = 348), the trio becomes half = 174, which is obviously peppier than half = 116 but not so manic as whole = that same mark. I'm not as disturbed by the accelerando as you; one can accelerate and then return to an original tempo.
This does make sense, certainly more than the extremes. Although I'd probably prefer an even more relaxed trio but I would have to check some recordings how different choices actually sound in practice.

Quote
As for the tenor solo, Norrington takes the funereal 84 and Gardiner goes to the other extreme with dotted half = 84. Both sound wrong to these ears, though Gardiner preserves the pace of the original theme and therefore doesn't have to accelerate wildly in the fugato with an unmarked Più mosso. Most conductors I've heard take a tempo between these two, but after the solo concludes it's off to the races.
I could imagine the deaf composer imagining that fast tempo for the instrumental fugato that concludes the section and not taking into account that this is too fast for the beginning. As we discussed elsewhere the 6/8 fugue section in op.133 is usually played (no original metronome marking) in ca. 80-84 for the dotted half which is not a problem for a string quartet. But they don't have to articulate sung text...

In any case I think the 9th as the last work for which MM markings were provided and when Beethoven was definitely deaf and maybe further away from practical considerations, he certainly could not test things in practice anymore should be to some extent "bracketed" for the metronome discussion.

Even in the first movement the marking, while playable is very fast in the 32nds passages and apparently in sketches or letters Beethoven corrected it to quarter note = 88 from 108 at which the 32nds would be a mere scramble, so I wonder if this is another mistake. It is fairly strange because quarter 88 is slow for an allegro ma non troppo but if the piece sounds de facto like in 8th notes 176 is more like presto.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2016, 11:17:03 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:11:11 AM
I could imagine the deaf composer imagining that fast tempo for the instrumental fugato that concludes the section and not taking into account that this is too fast for the beginning.

I realize it may be chronologically problematic to think of what LvB "would not have trouble with" based on my experience, centuries later . . . but in fact I should be surprised if LvB would need physical hearing to judge that sort of thing.  I cannot feel that LvB had less capable an "inner ear" than do I.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:49:36 AM
There is ample documentation that composers corrected tempo prescriptions during rehearsals. From what I have read, almost always towards the slower side. I think even Rosen has a similar anecdote in one of his essays about a performance of a 20th century piece he participated in. They played in rehearsal and the composer said: that's too fast whereupon the musicians replied that they were already 20% slower than the composer's metronome marking...

And note that I don't even claim that his inner ear was faulty. It was basically right for the instrumental section (and the fact that a similar section in a piece without metronome markings is played usually at the fast reading of the controversial 84 seems to point to that as well) but not taking into account that a singer could hardly articulate his part at that frantic speed. I do not have Gardiner's recording and I am not sure if I have one that is as fast as his. But the section is usually played "in between" the controversial (literal: very slow and according to a probably error that confused dotted quarters and dotted halfs very fast) markings with considerable speeding up at/during the instrumental fugato.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2016, 11:53:05 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:49:36 AM
There is ample documentation that composers corrected tempo prescriptions during rehearsals. From what I have read, almost always towards the slower side. I think even Rosen has a similar anecdote in one of his essays about a performance of a 20th century piece he participated in. They played in rehearsal and the composer said: that's too fast whereupon the musicians replied that they were already 20% slower than the composer's metronome marking...

And note that I don't even claim that his inner ear was faulty. It was basically right for the instrumental section (and the fact that a similar section in a piece without metronome markings is played usually at the fast reading of the controversial 84 seems to point to that as well) but not taking into account that a singer could hardly articulate his part at that frantic speed. I do not have Gardiner's recording and I am not sure if I have one that is as fast as his. But the section is usually played "in between" the controversial (literal: very slow and according to a probably error that confused dotted quarters and dotted halfs very fast) markings with considerable speeding up at/during the instrumental fugato.
Very good. And to be sure, I've revisited tempo marks afterward.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2016, 11:54:03 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 23, 2016, 11:53:05 AM
Very good. And to be sure, I've revisited tempo marks afterward.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Mine, I mean ... not Beethoven's 0:)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 23, 2016, 12:55:33 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:49:36 AM
There is ample documentation that composers corrected tempo prescriptions during rehearsals. From what I have read, almost always towards the slower side. I think even Rosen has a similar anecdote in one of his essays about a performance of a 20th century piece he participated in. They played in rehearsal and the composer said: that's too fast whereupon the musicians replied that they were already 20% slower than the composer's metronome marking...

Yes, I brought this up in another discussion. The piece in question was Boulez's 3rd Piano Sonata (calm down, KenB), where Boulez asked Rosen to "suivez la sonorité" rather than obey the metronome mark.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:34:35 PM
I have also read that Bartok's recordings as a pianist do not obey his own metronome markings although he was meticulous in those and even added total playing times to some scores. Most of his markings are also clearly on the fast side; I cannot be precise but I did a little comparison of Music for strings, percussion... a few years ago and especially the first slow movement was usually taken considerably slower than the marking (although there are some recording pretty close to it as well).
Don't get me wrong, I think such experiences add a "grain of salt" but I do not at all believe that Beethoven (and other composers who used the metronome) were completely off or deceiving on purpose or whatever.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2016, 03:27:23 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:34:35 PM
I have also read that Bartok's recordings as a pianist do not obey his own metronome markings although he was meticulous in those and even added total playing times to some scores. Most of his markings are also clearly on the fast side; I cannot be precise but I did a little comparison of Music for strings, percussion... a few years ago and especially the first slow movement was usually taken considerably slower than the marking (although there are some recording pretty close to it as well).
Don't get me wrong, I think such experiences add a "grain of salt" but I do not at all believe that Beethoven (and other composers who used the metronome) were completely off or deceiving on purpose or whatever.

Also (what must have been observed any number of times ere now), one must play into a space, and the same tempo will not well serve any given piece in all spaces;  and music which works at a specific metronome marking, and only at just that metronome marking, is a relatively rare occurrence, I should think.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 24, 2016, 05:20:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 24, 2016, 03:27:23 AM
Also (what must have been observed any number of times ere now), one must play into a space, and the same tempo will not well serve any given piece in all spaces;  and music which works at a specific metronome marking, and only at just that metronome marking, is a relatively rare occurrence, I should think.

All that is true; however metronome marks can at least suggest a ballpark range. (This is how Schoenberg envisioned them.) Good example: the trio to the scherzo in LvB 7, which is marked Assai meno presto vs. the main tempo of Presto. The metronome marking of dq=84 vs dq = 132 for the main movement should tell us not to slow down to an Adagio; Assai meno presto can still mean relatively fast in context. But there are recordings (Monteux comes to mind IIRC) where the trio slows to a crawl.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2016, 05:22:47 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 24, 2016, 05:20:22 AM
All that is true; however metronome marks can at least suggest a ballpark range. (This is how Schoenberg envisioned them.)

Aye.  One reason I do often inscribe a metronome mark, myself  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 24, 2016, 05:38:08 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 24, 2016, 05:20:22 AM
All that is true; however metronome marks can at least suggest a ballpark range. (This is how Schoenberg envisioned them.) Good example: the trio to the scherzo in LvB 7, which is marked Assai meno presto vs. the main tempo of Presto. The metronome marking of dq=84 vs dq = 132 for the main movement should tell us not to slow down to an Adagio; Assai meno presto can still mean relatively fast in context. But there are recordings (Monteux comes to mind IIRC) where the trio slows to a crawl.
In my experience it is fairly common to slow almost to a crawl. The only older conductor I am pretty sure came close to the proper relation was Toscanini. At least I distinctly remember that I was surprised when I heard one of his recordings of that piece because I had "learned" it with a very slow trio.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 24, 2016, 08:21:50 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 24, 2016, 05:38:08 AM
In my experience it is fairly common to slow almost to a crawl. The only older conductor I am pretty sure came close to the proper relation was Toscanini. At least I distinctly remember that I was surprised when I heard one of his recordings of that piece because I had "learned" it with a very slow trio.

I myself "learned" on Toscanini 50 years ago. In his "Compleat Conductor," Gunther Schuller provides a table comparing about 50 tempi for this section, with Celibidache taking first prize at dq=44 and Toscanini, Reiner, and Norrington being among the few that get it right. Of course Harke de Roos will probably tell us all why 44 is too fast as well. But Beethoven could have helped things by writing a tempo mark like Un poco meno presto rather than Assai meno presto.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 25, 2016, 02:26:10 AM
Sure, but I think this is precisely why Beethoven genuinely welcomed the metronome. Maybe "un poco meno presto" would have meant 100 or 108 vs. 132 or whatever.
As you mentioned Tchaikovsky, his 5th has not only the rather zippy (but plausible for "allegro con anima") 104 in the first movement, but at bar 170 "molto più tranquillo" ... 92! only about 10% slower.


I find it strange if a piece starts with a descpription like "poco sostenuto" as IIRC both Beethoven's 7th and Brahms' 1st do. This could be almost everything from a fairly broad largo to a flowing andante and would make more sense if there was a prior tempo indication to be related to.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on June 25, 2016, 05:01:17 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 25, 2016, 02:26:10 AM
Sure, but I think this is precisely why Beethoven genuinely welcomed the metronome. Maybe "un poco meno presto" would have meant 100 or 108 vs. 132 or whatever.
As you mentioned Tchaikovsky, his 5th has not only the rather zippy (but plausible for "allegro con anima") 104 in the first movement, but at bar 170 "molto più tranquillo" ... 92! less than 10% slower.


I find it strange if a piece starts with a descpription like "poco sostenuto" as IIRC both Beethoven's 7th and Brahms' 1st do. This could be almost everything from a fairly broad largo to a flowing andante and would make more sense if there was a prior tempo indication to be related to.

Neither "molto piu tranquillo" or "poco sosetnuto" are "tempo" markings. They are performance instructions. There is no unique tempo at which music is "tranquil."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 25, 2016, 07:05:46 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on June 25, 2016, 05:01:17 AM
Neither "molto piu tranquillo" or "poco sosetnuto" are "tempo" markings. They are performance instructions. There is no unique tempo at which music is "tranquil."

Literally, perhaps no. But the cases are quite different. In the Tchaikovsky, the "tranquillo" is relative to the original tempo marking, and there is both a metronome mark and an ensuing stringendo, returning to tempo primo, to confirm that the instruction implies a slowing of the tempo.

In the Brahms 1 and Beethoven 7 intros, the markings [Un] poco sostenuto are absolute, and conductors have to intuit a tempo where the music is "somewhat sustained." It doesn't help in the Brahms (or perhaps it does) that the coda is marked Meno allegro, and does this mean a return to the original tempo of the introduction, or a different tempo altogether? I'm too tired to develop this any further right now, but this is apparently a case where Brahms at least felt an indication of musical character would suffice to imply the intended tempo, and Beethoven of course adds a metronome mark. The problem is discussed both in Bernstein's The Joy of Music and Gunther Schuller's The Compleat Conductor.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jlaurson on September 16, 2016, 01:25:06 PM

latest on Forbes:

Classical CD Of The Week: Nelson Freire's Bumble-Bee-Beethoven
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/09/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_DECCA_Beethoven_Concerto_Sonata_op111_Freire_Chailly_Leipzig_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg)
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Ludwig van Beethoven, Piano Concerto No.5, Piano Sonata op.111, Nelson Freire (piano), Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Riccardo Chailly (conductor), Decca
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 04, 2016, 04:40:37 AM
Latest on Forbes:

Beethoven And Schubert Almost On Original Location: A REsounding Success

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/10/Resound_Beethoven_Schubert_Jens-F-Laurson_Sound-Advice-1200x797.jpg?width=960) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/03/beethoven-and-schubert-almost-on-original-location-a-resounding-success/#56e8f3f17c5f)

Schubert's Great C major Symphony[2] is a challenge for a "REsound" project, since the only place it 'sounded', in Schubert's time, was in his head...


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2016, 07:35:03 AM
To paraphrase Jeeves, I believe Beethoven has given general satisfaction.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Amore di Viola on January 01, 2017, 12:37:11 AM
Would this be the right place to try to start a conversation on the Piano Sonatas, especially the 'no-names'? Or has this already been talked through years ago?

I am trying to work my way through all 32, but it is difficult! I keep going back, listening and relistening – this way I won't hear anything else until sometime in 2019.... I started by buying a set played by Anne Øland. Her style is lucid, but very harsh and somewhat monotonous, and I noticed some rhytmical peculiarities that I had to check in the score: They could not be permitted in any way. So I trashed the set after a few sonatas and bought Annie Fischer. It was like landing on another planet! That's when I realized (again) that in the perception of a piece of music, there are four actors: The composer, the tradition, the artist and the listener. 
I couldn't help myself. When I arrived at number seven, I wondered whether the start of the first movement could be interpreted differently – so I bought the Andras Schiff set. Now I'm back to the first sonatas again – comparing, enjoying.

So. From my experience so far, most of those sonatas are – can I say masterpieces without just stating the totally obvious? They are not just pieces to be revered and put on a shelf, to me they are burning hot, each with their own unique characteristics. Of course there is an enormous development – going from 1 to 32 the universe changes – but still, number 1 in f minor is not a beginner's work! Starting with a Mannheimer Rocket right up to a sprightly four-note figure, that ends up dominating the entire first movement. Vienna, here I come! For the first three movements at least, we are still firmly within the Wiener-classical boundaries (which, by the way, is no bad thing. The best art is created when the artist pushes against limits of form. When all form is rejected you get a century of bicycle wheels and urinals. Boring!)

Fischer plays the first movement very intensely and slightly faster than Schiff. Schiff makes some marked rhytmical variations – what are they called? Micro-rubatos? but uses less damper. Fischer does not repeat the development part, which in my book makes sense, because the coda is so forceful. All in all, a comment which I guess could be repeated many times over the sets, Schiff is more classical, Fischer more romantic in the interpretations. Schiff stays pays very close attention to all details of the score, Fischer allows herself more liberties.  What riches to have so many opportunities!

The second movement is slow, beautiful, a bit pensive, but not profound or tragic or anything.  Just – melodious. Here I prefer Fischer's slower take, but that is strictly a matter of personal taste.

Third movement, menuetto. How I have come to love the menuettos and scherzos! Here Schiff's more restrained style really makes the movement shine. The way he plays the trio would have make ol' Johann Sebastian soft.

But the fourth movement, prestissimo. Fischer goes all in, plays like there's no tomorrow. Absolutely gorgeous! This, I guess, is one of the first movements where Haydn must have become worried: What is he up to? There is still some breathing space here and there in the movement, but overall it grabs you, rushes along and doesn't let you go until it slings you to the ground – the final, deep F.


Would anybody chip in here? Do my comments make sense?  What are your experiences with the first – and the set?
Any interpretations of the first to recommend, and why?

What does the recording quality mean to you? I must admit I can be bugged by the analog hiss on some of the Fischer sonatas  (and, for that matter, a bit of coughing here and there on Schiff).

And of course, to repeat my first question, did you already have that discussion years ago, and I am just not aware of it?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2017, 05:13:16 AM
Hey Amore di Viola. Probably this is the thread you are looking for... one of the most active Beethoven threads, at that.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.3580.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.3580.html)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Amore di Viola on January 01, 2017, 07:56:45 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2017, 05:13:16 AM
Hey Amore di Viola. Probably this is the thread you are looking for... one of the most active Beethoven threads, at that.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.3580.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2302.3580.html)

Whoa! 180 pages! Y'know, I think I'll just shut up and read, before deciding whether I have something sensible to add... Thanks a lot for the advice, SurprisedByBeauty  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 01, 2017, 10:25:05 AM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on January 01, 2017, 07:56:45 AM
Whoa! 180 pages! Y'know, I think I'll just shut up and read, before deciding whether I have something sensible to add... Thanks a lot for the advice, SurprisedByBeauty  :)

Every new opinion and question and idea is welcome and helpful, even if it's been covered in some way. That said, reading through some of that thread will be sure to yield many valuable morsels from you, especially from our in-house LvB expert (and maniac), Todd.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 01, 2017, 11:56:11 AM
Quote from: Amore di Viola on January 01, 2017, 07:56:45 AM
Whoa! 180 pages! Y'know, I think I'll just shut up and read, before deciding whether I have something sensible to add... Thanks a lot for the advice, SurprisedByBeauty  :)

Only 80 pages. The other 100 pages must've been a repeat that wasn't taken.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: RebLem on January 31, 2017, 07:48:48 PM
I just finished listening to a relatively new cycle of the Beethoven Symphonies recorded live in concert in 2002 by the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR conducted by Sir Roger Norrington, its music director. It has been issued on the hanssler label.  I found most of the performances disappointing, but two exceptional performanes stand out: the Fifth and the Ninth. 

This is Norrignton's second go round in this repertoire.  The first, with the London Classical Players, was recorded for EMI at their Abbey Road Studios in London, 1986-88.  The ensemble was a period instruments ensemble, and those recordings were hailed by reviewers as pathmaking efforts in Beethoven interpretation.  To my ears, though, they seemed to be good but fairly unremarkable performances from an interpretive standpoint.  This new set, however, is with a modern symphony orchestra but, paradoxically, its two specially remarkable performances present some novel and very  interesting interpretive insights. 

Norrington's new Fifth has what seems the fastest tempoed first movement I have ever heard; it is fleet and magnificent, and the last movement, too, is worked up into a fine fettle--not quite as orgasmic as Fritz Reiner or Carlos Kleiber, but pretty impressive, nevertheless. 

Norrington's new Ninth, though, is one of the very greatest performances of this work ever committed for posterity.  The whole work times out at 61'28", the last twenty seconds or so of which is applause, so this is one of the faster ones on record.  I am not going to go through my entire collection checking on speeds, but to the best of my recollection, only the Gardiner and Reiner recordings are faster.

The first movement is fleet, but still muscular, not at all slight.  The scherzo has stronger, more pointed accents than most performances, and the tihrd movement is very unusual.  It is probably the third movement which differs most from traditional practice.  Most performances seem like somnolent reveries; Norrington's is full of excitement with lots of slight and a few notable tempo shifts, which help sustain interest.  Franz-Josef Selig is a true bass, not a bass baritone or baritone, and he is perfectly matched by Camilla Nylund, soprano, Iris Vermillion, alto, and Jonas Kaufmann, tenor.  On its first mention, the word "Kuss" receives special emphasis, as it does in a few other recordings, especially those of Mengelberg and Dorati, but later mentions of the word do not receive the same emphasis.  In the Turkish music section, the horn is set off from the percussion in an way that provides a more pronounced contrast than I find in any other performance.  The vocal quartet members are in nearly perfect balance with one another, and they as a group with the chorus as well,   This  leads to a finale which is truly a bravura performance by all concerned.  The finale does not accellerate quite as much here as in most recordings, but it does accelerate, as Dorati does not; Mengelberg actually  slows down for the last five or six bars.  Altogether, it is one of the truly great Ninths, along with Tennstedt, the Klemperer studio recording, the Toscanini performance and that of George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra.  Highly  recommended.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 30, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
Has anyone noticed that the opening of Op 131 starts with the DSCH motiv?

The G# upbeat aside, the next 4 notes are B# C# A G#, precisely the same interval as D Eb C B (DSCH)?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2017, 11:48:01 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 30, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
Has anyone noticed that the opening of Op 131 starts with the DSCH motiv?

The G# upbeat aside, the next 4 notes are B# C# A G#, precisely the same interval as D Eb C B (DSCH)?

OMG. Time travel is possible!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 31, 2017, 12:17:20 AM
Beethoven uses variants of that "four tone" motive of two notes a minor or major second apart with a larger interval (sixth or seventh) in between in op.130-133. And he actually used a very similar one already in the c minor string trio op.9, even with a somewhat similar effect as in the finale of op.131, namely with a sombre almost choral-like character.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 01, 2017, 06:11:31 PM
I have been listening to Op 111 a bit lately. One interesting interpretation is Backhaus (you can watch it on Youtube). He takes the second mvt at a tempo that is is extraordinarily fast. The opening is fast (no repeats either) and last couple of variations he has to be twice as fast as anyone else. But it works. Just to show what a wide range of interpretations work for Beethoven.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2017, 03:02:58 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 01, 2017, 06:11:31 PM
I have been listening to Op 111 a bit lately. One interesting interpretation is Backhaus (you can watch it on Youtube). He takes the second mvt at a tempo that is is extraordinarily fast. The opening is fast (no repeats either) and last couple of variations he has to be twice as fast as anyone else. But it works. Just to show what a wide range of interpretations work for Beethoven.

Yvonne Lefebvre takes less time than Backhaus, Maria Yudina is about the same in terms of elapsed time - she's a favourite of mine.

Even as far back as 1937 Backhaus takes the theme with a slower basic pulse than the first variation. I had thought that Schnabel was the first to do this, maybe I was wrong, I can't remember when Schnabel made his first recording of op 111.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 03, 2017, 09:33:25 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 02, 2017, 03:02:58 AM
Yvonne Lefebvre takes less time than Backhaus, Maria Yudina is about the same in terms of elapsed time - she's a favourite of mine.

Even as far back as 1937 Backhaus takes the theme with a slower basic pulse than the first variation. I had thought that Schnabel was the first to do this, maybe I was wrong, I can't remember when Schnabel made his first recording of op 111.
Thanks, Lefebure's Op 111 is not on youtube but Yudina is. Yes a very individualistic approach - steely and objective, almost makes the music sound like it just came off Beethoven's pen. Listening to her and someone like Pogorelich back to back it hardly seems like the same piece of music.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on April 03, 2017, 12:17:39 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 02, 2017, 03:02:58 AM
Yvonne Lefebvre takes less time than Backhaus, Maria Yudina is about the same in terms of elapsed time - she's a favourite of mine.

Last time I compared the dozen or so recordings of Op. 111 that I have, Yudina came out on top.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 04:50:44 AM
Does anyone know/have a complete recording of King Stephen and/or The Ruin of Athens? Not just the overtures, but all the music.

Apologies if I've asked this before, which is quite possible, as I tend to be curious about this kind of thing. I imagine that there's some "complete edition" that has a recording, but apart from that...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 04:51:40 AM
I wonder if our Gurn might know . . . .
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 05:03:06 AM
I've found evidence of a recording on the Hungaroton label conducted by Geza Oberfrank.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iMkt%2BgVbL._SL500_SY450_.jpg)

I did also find signs of another recording, but only on vinyl.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:15:10 AM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 16, 2017, 04:50:44 AM
Does anyone know/have a complete recording of King Stephen and/or The Ruin of Athens? Not just the overtures, but all the music.

Apologies if I've asked this before, which is quite possible, as I tend to be curious about this kind of thing. I imagine that there's some "complete edition" that has a recording, but apart from that...

I have them both in this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/619NCC319ML.gif)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51veDa2ROAL._SY355_.jpg)

The Ruins of Athens, op. 113
Berliner Philharmoniker, RIAS Kammerchor, various soloists, Bernhard Klee

King Stephen or Hungary's First Benefactor, Op.117
Myung Whun Chung, Coro e Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2017, 05:16:47 AM
Well done, Andrei.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 05:19:34 AM
Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 05:15:10 AM
I have them both in this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/619NCC319ML.gif)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51veDa2ROAL._SY355_.jpg)

The Ruins of Athens, op. 113
Berliner Philharmoniker, RIAS Kammerchor, various soloists, Bernhard Klee

King Stephen or Hungary's First Benefactor, Op.117
Myung Whun Chung, Coro e Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia

Thanks. The separate volume 3 might be an option.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on May 16, 2017, 05:35:05 AM
Quote from: George on April 03, 2017, 12:17:39 PM
Last time I compared the dozen or so recordings of Op. 111 that I have...

Heavily understated, I suppose.  ;)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on May 16, 2017, 06:47:17 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on May 16, 2017, 05:35:05 AM
Heavily understated, I suppose.  ;)

;D

What are people's favorite recordings of Op. 129, Rage Over A Lost Penny?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2017, 12:09:14 PM
Quote from: ørfeo on May 16, 2017, 05:19:34 AM
Thanks. The separate volume 3 might be an option.

You're welcome. Be advised, though, that volume 3 has five discs.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 16, 2017, 02:15:38 PM
I know. I did look up the contents before saying that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 24, 2017, 04:27:53 AM
Apropos of orfeo's question: RIGHT NOW Naxos is recording Leif Segerstam and the Turku Philharmonic for a new series of Beethoven's complete incidental music and other rare odds and ends.
https://www.naxos.com/news/default.asp?op=1368&displayMenu=Naxos_News&type=2
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 24, 2017, 04:58:00 AM
Ooooohhhhhh.

Thank you for the heads up.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 05:00:38 AM
Nice.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on June 18, 2017, 08:40:26 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 18, 2017, 01:28:20 AM
the more intimate the better  ;)

Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ritter on June 18, 2017, 09:13:33 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 18, 2017, 08:40:26 AM
Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)
Unpopular with me, that's for sure.... 8) Nothing greater and more compelling than the Seventh Symphony (just to stick to Beethoven), or, moving further ahead, any of the mature Wagner operas, the late Bruckner symphonies, etc., etc.

But...we can still be friends.  ;)



Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on June 18, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 18, 2017, 09:13:33 AM
Nothing greater and more compelling than the Seventh Symphony (just to stick to Beethoven),

Nothing indeed, except... Archduke Trio, Kreutzer Sonata, a handful of Piano Sonatas and Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9.  ;D

EDIT: and Piano Concertos 2, 4, 5... and the Violin Concerto... and the Triple Concerto...

Quote
or, moving further ahead, any of the mature Wagner operas, the late Bruckner symphonies, etc., etc.

They belong to "obvious exceptions" --- and anyway they are far from being on my list of top 50 favorite composers .  ;D

Quote
But...we can still be friends.  ;)

Absolutely.  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ritter on June 18, 2017, 09:53:08 AM
Quote from: Florestan on June 18, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
Nothing indeed, except... Archduke Trio, Kreutzer Sonata, a handful of Piano Sonatas and Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9.  ;D

EDIT: and Piano Concertos 2, 4, 5... and the Violin Concerto... and the Triple Concerto...

Curious to see 9 symphonic works by LvB used as examples of how more complleing and attractive  his chamber music is vis-à-vis orchestral oeuvre... :)

Quote from: Florestan on June 18, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
Absolutely.  8)
All's good, then... 8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 18, 2017, 10:25:25 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 18, 2017, 09:22:26 AM
Unpopular? I think that's a good point (or at least view). I tend to agree quite a bit there. From Medieval to early romantic, the best or most compelling music is "chamber music" IMO. Whether it's vocal music, Bach fugues, Piano sonatas, String quartets, piano quintets etc. The mid romantic era just stepped the game up so far expression-wise. There is a certain strength that smaller (instrument) numbers has on those eras  :)

The interesting thing for me is whether you think the same thing applies in the C20, that modern chamber music is more compelling than music for big loud forces. And if not, what's made the difference.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 18, 2017, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 18, 2017, 10:38:19 AM
But again, there's something about the intimacy in Beethoven's chamber music, that I quite like a lot. His signature forcefulness contrasted with lyricism feels more 'closer' and less distant (I guess, if it makes sense)  :)

These qualities show up everywhere in Beethoven...that's what makes him so popular. He performs (so to speak) on many levels. There's intimacy, humor, resourcefulness, unpredictability, light-heartedness, grandeur, imagination...etc, etc, etc...in pretty much every composition, large-forces or small. At least that's what I hear.

So you may be "calling it" but I call it differently. 8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on June 18, 2017, 11:17:30 AM
Quote from: ritter on June 18, 2017, 09:53:08 AM
Curious to see 9 symphonic works by LvB used as examples of how more complleing and attractive  his chamber music is vis-à-vis orchestral oeuvre... :)

Si un hombre nunca se contradice, es porque nunca dice nada.  :laugh:

Quote
All's good, then... 8)

Never been otherwise, afaIc.   8)



Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 18, 2017, 11:27:02 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 18, 2017, 01:28:20 AM
The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets.
Based on your other posted listening, I would have thought you would be receptive to the later sonatas anyway. They have a lot of the essence of the music you like (and are key works along the way).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 18, 2017, 12:24:16 PM
With most really great composers I find very little difference in quality between their major genres. Beethoven's symphonies are as good as his piano solo and chamber music, same with Haydn and Mozart. Only in the case of Mozart there are comparably few mature symphonies but the last four are as good as his best quartets (and better than his piano solo, I'd say). With Schubert the balance is tilted but the main/only reason is that there is only one completed mature symphony compared to quite a few piano and chamber works of the highest rank.

If one brings vocal music into the mix one might come so somewhat different conclusions but again, I'd say that Beethoven's best vocal music (Missa solemnis and Fidelio) is about as good as it gets, certainly not clearly inferior to his instrumental music but of course there is not so much of it. And the Lieder of which there are many are not quite as good as most of his instrumental stuff but they are overall underrated and some astonishingly good and many charming pieces. (The most perfunctory music by Beethoven I find in some lesser orchestral, chamber, and piano works, like some of the incidental music, early piano variations or woodwind chamber music.)

With Mendelssohn and Schumann I would agree that overall symphonies are maybe not their very best pieces although each wrote at least one symphony that would be a candidate for ranking equal with their best chamber or piano solo (Schumann) music.

So altogether, I disagree with the claim. It holds for some composers to a certain extent but not in general and not for Beethoven.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 18, 2017, 12:54:54 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on June 18, 2017, 01:28:20 AM


The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets.
Only ten times?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2017, 12:41:36 PM
Meh. People respond to different kinds of things. I absolutely adore chamber music, but I'm well aware that there are many people who prefer orchestral works.

And when it comes to Beethoven there are pretty fine things in any genre.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 12, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 12, 2017, 06:06:08 AM
By far, I certianly don't think he's the greatest composer or person to walk the earth but I give him a thumbs up.

That's very broadminded of you, I'd say.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 12, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 12, 2017, 06:06:08 AM
By far, I certianly don't think he's the greatest composer or person to walk the earth but I give him a thumbs up.

Yes, we're happy you're happy... :blank: ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on July 12, 2017, 03:08:58 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 12, 2017, 06:06:08 AM
By far, I certianly don't think he's the greatest composer or person to walk the earth but I give him a thumbs up.

Alas, we will never know if he would give you a thumbs up.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 16, 2017, 05:23:10 AM
Bought a really good-conditioned vinyl of this Beethoven's 3rd from HVK/Berlin.

Is this recording from his 1963 cycle? I don't see any dates on the sleeve mentioning a recording date.
Thanks!!!  8)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714-QOCrTOL._SY450_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on July 16, 2017, 06:04:44 AM
Yes, that's '63. It has one of the most remarkable recordings of the funeral march I have heard.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 16, 2017, 06:22:59 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on July 16, 2017, 06:04:44 AM
Yes, that's '63. It has one of the most remarkable recordings of the funeral march I have heard.

Thanks, Scarpia!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on July 26, 2017, 03:10:59 AM
Not without reason.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on August 01, 2017, 12:33:03 PM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 01, 2017, 01:44:32 AM
Well it's official guys, I'll join the Beethoven bandwagon (just keep those symphonies - except for 7 away from me  ;D )


It'll be Brahms next. And then. . . . Saint Saens maybe.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 02, 2017, 02:50:08 AM
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 01, 2017, 04:33:01 PM
I already like Brahms.........

Good. Then you're halfway there.  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mahlerian on August 02, 2017, 07:59:26 AM
Quote from: Alberich on August 02, 2017, 02:50:08 AM
Good. Then you're halfway there.  8)

I love both Beethoven and Brahms, but still don't care for Saint-Saens.  His music is only mildly interesting to me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on August 02, 2017, 08:51:25 AM
Quote from: Mahlerian on August 02, 2017, 07:59:26 AM
I love both Beethoven and Brahms, but still don't care for Saint-Saens.  His music is only mildly interesting to me.

From those three I think I like Brahms the least (although I still do like his music).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on August 28, 2017, 03:44:12 AM
I'm not a big fan of the gradual creeping-in of HIPP elements into modern Beethoven performances, like the tendency to play everything at lightning speed, those timpani and natural trumpets etc. HIPP is an interesting "side-project", but it should be no more than that. The performance of music, and the instruments, should (and for the most part have) move(d) and evolve with the time. HIPP is turning Beethoven's music into an artefact of ancient times, rather than something still relevant today.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 28, 2017, 03:51:57 AM
I agree that HIPP is a valid approach, rather than that to which all must now hew.

But I actually think that one result of the HIPP movement is, in fact, a renewed relevance . . . I do not take it as a relegation to the Sonic Museum.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on August 28, 2017, 03:53:57 AM
And anyway, second-tier orchestras (and—let's be honest—many of the first tier, too) will continue their practice of scheduling an obligatory quota of Beethoven every year.  There is no danger of LvB being consigned to oblivion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: North Star on August 28, 2017, 03:58:08 AM
It's not as if HIPP is not a thoroughly contemporary phenomenon, with strong links to contemporary music. A symphony orchestra playing Beethoven as though it was Strauss is an artifact of ancient times. Not that there isn't a place for artifacts.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on August 28, 2017, 05:17:26 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 28, 2017, 03:44:12 AM
The performance of music, and the instruments, should (and for the most part have) move(d) and evolve with the time.

And yet people still seem to think we ought to stick to the notes that Beethoven wrote, as if that was the most important bit of the music over and above the tempo and the instrumentation?

My own view is that pitch gets prioritised simply because that is the aspect of music for which a more precise form of notation has been found.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on August 28, 2017, 06:45:46 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 28, 2017, 03:44:12 AM
I'm not a big fan of the gradual creeping-in of HIPP elements into modern Beethoven performances, like the tendency to play everything at lightning speed, those timpani and natural trumpets etc.
Those are the speeds Beethoven wanted and indicated in his scores (in fact they are often slower than the speeds Beethoven indicated), and the way he expected timpani to be played, etc. If you take issue with aspects of Beethoven's writing to such an extent, maybe his music is not for you.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on September 07, 2017, 10:30:12 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 28, 2017, 03:44:12 AM
I'm not a big fan of the gradual creeping-in of HIPP elements into modern Beethoven performances, like the tendency to play everything at lightning speed, those timpani and natural trumpets etc. HIPP is an interesting "side-project", but it should be no more than that. The performance of music, and the instruments, should (and for the most part have) move(d) and evolve with the time. HIPP is turning Beethoven's music into an artefact of ancient times, rather than something still relevant today.

In other words, you don't like HIP.

HIP is a modern phenomenon, involving both scholarship and experimentation, searching for a truer understanding of the intentions of composers from past eras. The fact that HIP elements have been "creeping in" to Beethoven performance reflects the fact that it is a force revitalizing Beethoven performance. Freezing in 19th century or 20th century performance practice of Beethoven is what threatens to transform the music into an "artifact," in my view.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on September 07, 2017, 10:39:32 AM
Listened to Beethoven's String Quartet Op 130, for the first time after a while.

I remember that in the past I felt I had to approach it with a certain amount of awe, suitable to its status as a deep and profound work. This time, it strikes me as a sort of serenade, with a breezy structure and profundity running as an undercurrent deep below the surface.

I listened to two versions, the rarely mentioned Cleveland Quartet (Telarc) and the Quartetto Italiano (Philips). Both were splendid in their way. The only clear difference was in the movement which is one of my favorites in all of Beethoven, the "Alla danza tedesca."

The Quartetto Italiano more strictly follows the tempo marking "Allegro assai," but I think the result is a feeling that the music is rushed. The Cleveland plays with a much more expansive tempo and the syncopations and dynamics of the music unfolds more naturally. The Cleveland also takes the finale (the final finale, not the Grosse Fuge) more slowly, which I found less successful.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 11, 2017, 08:50:57 AM
cross-post from new releases

-

ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

IT'S HAPPENING  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/BackCovers/822186054451.jpg)

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/BackCovers/822186054451.pt01.jpg)

EDIT
timings

CD1
Op. 127
6:59
12:58
8:57
6:30

Op. 131
6:09
3:09
0:41
13:05
5:34
1:40
6:51

CD2
Op. 130
14:32
2:03
7:38
3:05
6:09
Grosse Fuge 15:56

CD3
Op. 132
9:47
8:45
15:07
2:08
7:06

Op. 135
7:04
3:39
7:01
6:35
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 11, 2017, 10:50:01 AM
Excellent! I heard some of that Beethoven, presumably, live... and was quite enthused. And I'd been hoping they'd continue their cycle... on another label if necessary. That it will work out on naive all the better.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on September 11, 2017, 11:00:00 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2017, 08:50:57 AM
cross-post from new releases

-

ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

IT'S HAPPENING  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/BackCovers/822186054451.jpg)
CD2
Op. 130
14:32
2:03
7:38
3:05
6:09
Grosse Fuge 15:56

Something is wrong. There is a movement missing. Did they refuse to record Beethoven's finale for Op 130? And the "Alla danza tedesca" is 3:05? My favorite versions are 3:30 and 3:45. That is crazy fast.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 11, 2017, 11:02:35 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2017, 11:00:00 AM
Something is wrong. There is a movement missing. Did they refuse to record Beethoven's finale for Op 130? And the "Alla danza tedesca" is 3:05? My favorite versions are 3:30 and 3:45. That is crazy fast.
They did not record the replacement finale. The cavatina is 6:09 and the Grosse Fuge "is" the finale. There is a rationale in the booklet about preserving Beethoven's original thoughts, but with this ensemble, I think the more music they record the better!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on September 11, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2017, 11:00:00 AM
That is crazy fast.

There like a PI HIP Juilliard
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 11, 2017, 11:05:48 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 11, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
There like a PI HIP Juilliard
Ha, the Juilliard Sony performance of that movement is 3:00.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on September 11, 2017, 11:17:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2017, 11:02:35 AM
They did not record the replacement finale. The cavatina is 6:09 and the Grosse Fuge "is" the finale. There is a rationale in the booklet about preserving Beethoven's original thoughts, but with this ensemble, I think the more music they record the better!

That is ridiculous. Beethoven was perfectly capable of telling a publisher "that's the way I wrote it, if you don't like it I'll take it somewhere else." He must have seen some merit to the Grosse Fuge standing on its own as an independent piece. Besides, the replacement finale is a wonderful piece, whether or not you prefer to hear it as the finale of Op 130. They should have preserved the tradition of putting both finales on the disc so the listener can program it either way.

This is a set I will pass up without reservation.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on September 11, 2017, 11:24:43 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2017, 11:17:41 AM
They should have preserved the tradition of putting both finales on the disc so the listener can program it either way.
I agree wholeheartedly with this, but will be listening to the set regardless.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on September 11, 2017, 11:34:31 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2017, 11:24:43 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with this, but will be listening to the set regardless.

I may be listening to it, but I won't be paying for it. (Besides, I'm in the Festetics camp.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on September 12, 2017, 12:27:32 AM
Around 3 min for the danza tedesca is not uncommon. I think the Petersen and the Hungarian Q played it quite a bit faster than 3 min. 3:40 must certainly be among the slowest renditions.
There has been a live op.130 with the Mosaiques floating around on the webs since 10 year ago or longer, so this issue seems overdue.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on September 12, 2017, 10:24:28 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2017, 12:27:32 AM
Around 3 min for the danza tedesca is not uncommon. I think the Petersen and the Hungarian Q played it quite a bit faster than 3 min. 3:40 must certainly be among the slowest renditions.

I think 3:40 is certainly slower than what would be implied by Beethoven's tempo marking, but my two favorite recordings (La Salle and Cleveland) are in that ball park. The Italiano at 3:00 sounded too fast, but I just listened to the Amadeus, and at 2:45 and it sounded good.

It is starting to dawn on me that I actually don't like the Italiano Quartet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 18, 2017, 12:04:15 PM
I've completed my most ambitious discography to-date: [cross-post from the LvBSQ4t thread]


A Survey of Beethoven String Quartet Cycles
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/09/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/09/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html)

A heck of a lot of work -- and VERY appreciative of any corrections and additions! (Todd!?!)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on September 24, 2017, 12:42:17 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on September 18, 2017, 12:04:15 PM
I've completed my most ambitious discography to-date: [cross-post from the LvBSQ4t thread]


A Survey of Beethoven String Quartet Cycles
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/09/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/09/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html)

A heck of a lot of work -- and VERY appreciative of any corrections and additions! (Todd!?!)

Hey, a friend of mine on another site, wanted me to pass this on to you:

QuoteSince you're in contact with the compiler, would you mind passing on a tidbit (that he may already know, but that doesn't appear in the listings): in addition to the labels shown, the Pascal set was released at least in part on Concert Hall Society. That was related to Musical Masterpiece Society in some way, and he does list it in that form.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 24, 2017, 12:46:26 PM
Quote from: George on September 24, 2017, 12:42:17 PM
Hey, a friend of mine on another site, wanted me to pass this on to you:

Thanks for that - and much appreciated. Will look into it tomorrow and see what info should/needs to be added.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 30, 2017, 06:34:45 PM
I have acquired a curious recording from crq.org.uk

In 1966 the BBC had a series "The Composer Conducts" and Robert Simpson chose to conduct Beethoven's Eroica. He took an "authentic approach" which consisted of using modern instruments but in the strength that they would have had in Beethoven's orchestra (ie fewer strings), and going back to the original score discarding changes that subsequent conductors had introduced to deal with the increased number of strings, and with passages where they thought Beethoven was limited by his natural brass instruments.

The result, although the sound is not great, is amazing and Simpson's tempi are very fast. Here is comparison between Simpson's tempi and those the Hannover Band, Anima Aeterna, and (for an example of a slow conductor) Guilini:

              I           II         III          IV
HB         17.19    13.43   5.24      10.24
AE          16.46    13.23   5.36      10.54
Simpson  16.44    15.10   5.49      10.57
Guilini      21.07    17.52   6.39      13.59

It will be seen that Simpson is the fastest of all in the first movement!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on September 30, 2017, 07:49:43 PM
(Although actually slower than the indicated tempo, which is not taken by very many people other than Scherchen w the VSOO.... 14:47 iirc, with repeat)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 01, 2017, 01:34:41 AM
Scherchen is the fastest, but there are bunch of others who come pretty close: Leibowitz (w/o repeat), Gielen, Gardiner, Norrington (all about 20-40 sec. behind Scherchen or so). And there are bunch more slightly below/around 16 min with repeat.
16:44 is probably on the fast side of median but I would not call it fast. Note that Giulini ist among the slowest ever (although I think there is one from the very late Klemp with 18 min w/o repeat, the 1950s Klemp was moderate/average with about 15 min w/o repeat).

I love Taruskin's comparison in an essay on Beethoven performance that listening to the Scherchen one feels like the audience watching Roger Bannister running the mile sub 4 minutes for the first time must have felt...

And you can see that Simpson is rather traditional in the funeral march instead of the HIP 12-13 minutes.

He seems fastish in the finale, although again here long playing times are often mostly due to a bigger slow down in the andante section than the score calls for not for sticking to the crazy tempo of the main section, most are slower than indicated but reasonably close.
I wonder if Beethoven really wanted the variations as fast as the initial "flourish" because both the tempo words and the fast M.M. (half note 76, faster than the finale of the 7th that "feels" much faster) are much faster than the indications for the variation theme in the Prometheus music and the piano variations (where it is marked something like "allegretto", not "allegro vivace"). In any case I think some flexibility in the variations in the finale is appriopriate even when not explicitly indicated.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827): Sonata #23 Essay by P. Jumppanen
Post by: Cato on October 09, 2017, 03:51:27 AM
Courtesy of the Oct. 7/8th 2017 edition of the Wall Street Journal:

QuoteIn Beethoven's 'Appassionata,' darkness overwhelms light.

By Paavali Jumppanen
Oct. 6, 2017 12:25 p.m. ET

In 1804, following works born of the idealism of the French Revolution and the Enlightenment such as his "Eroica" Symphony, Beethoven created the greatest musical explosion for solo piano of its time: the Sonata No. 23 in F Minor, known as the "Appassionata." It is a work of a very different temper.

Composed soon after Beethoven first faced the catastrophic prospect of incurable deafness, the work has fascinated and confounded performers and listeners ever since. Full of tragic power, the sonata is arguably Beethoven's darkest and most aggressive work. It has been compared to Dante's "Inferno" and Shakespeare's "Macbeth."

To this day pianists the world over wrestle with the jarring drama of this technically ferocious keyboard marvel. Having experienced the thrilling yet strenuous task of performing it numerous times, I can attest to the truth of what Carl Czerny, the composer's most influential student, said of it: Performers must "develop the kind of physical and mental powers that will be needed to be able to represent the beauties of the noble musical picture."

The main expectation of the Viennese Classical sonata was to provide the listener with a well-balanced mix of delight and surprise. Mozart was particularly skillful in the former, while Haydn excelled at the latter. Beethoven's recipe was to write an emotionally involving composition that would hold the listener's full attention until the very end, one in which shifts and surprises were part of a dramatic entirety.

Among Beethoven's 32 sonatas, the "Appassionata" stands out for its uncompromising pianistic drive and extremely effective dramaturgy. One early 20th-century commentator spoke of the work's "rush deathward." The absence of any hint of a silver lining in the work was well ahead of its time.

Over the course of its three movements, the "Appassionata" pulls the listener through a wide range of extreme emotions. The drama begins with the pianist slowly reaching to the keyboard. Unison notes then fall downward and stalk upward, giving rise to a mysterious stillness. Suddenly the music bursts its bounds, and as it charges ahead the pace relaxes into a lyrical and hymn-like episode of graceful beauty. The dream soon proves to be a nightmare, though, as the fierce turbulence that lurked behind the work's quiet opening regains its full potential. More dramatic shifts follow as episodes of extreme velocity, furiously jolting rhythms (that could be described as jazzy had they been created a hundred years later), and moments of solace alternate in transporting the listener.

But is the source of the diabolic power of the "Appassionata" simply the drama of violent surprises and shifts of mood? In my view it stems from something deeper, the way Beethoven highlights the tension between what was by then Western music's most fundamental building blocks, the major and minor keys. You know what these are even if you think you don't. Music in a major key usually sounds optimistic, cheerful; music in a minor key often sounds sad, even foreboding. These traits—naturally elaborated and complicated beyond what words can describe—add much to the music's meaning and provide a kind of a dramatic framework.

In Beethoven's day, "public" works such as symphonies needed to end upbeat and in a major key; it simply wouldn't do to send a large audience home with an unpleasant aftertaste. However, in pieces written for smaller, private audiences, such as piano sonatas, Beethoven was emboldened to continue in the darker mode until the very end. In the "Appassionata" he made use of this freedom as he did nowhere else.

Throughout the sonata we are witness to a back-and-forth drama of major conquered by minor, or, if you will, darkness overwhelming light. Much of the piece's harmonic structure includes the systematic repression of brighter themes in major keys. The first movement's lyrical second theme (in A-flat major) is the first victim. The propitious melody comes to a sudden standstill; a strident chord interrupts and the music veers off into minor. Throughout the rest of the movement, other major keys become strangled by minor. This impulse reaches its climax in the cataclysmic second part of the sonata, which comprises the second and third movements, which follow each other without a break.

Remaining entirely in major, the second movement denies the horrors of the first movement until the sudden and terrific opening gesture of the minor key finale crushes the hopes represented by the major once and for all. The major mode makes one last attempt at an entrance near the very end of the work, but tragically late. And because of its tardiness it sounds like devil's laughter in the face of ultimate damnation.

Czerny speculated about the finale that, "Perhaps Beethoven, ever fond of representing natural scenes, imagined the waves of the sea in a stormy night, whilst cries of distress are heard from afar." Audiences over the past two centuries have perceived them to be devastatingly close. The modern listener may be inclined to either view, while every performance cultivates a truth of its own. In the end, what remains certain is that the "Appassionata" is a masterpiece that remains eternally fascinating with its eerie, brilliant and original wildness.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on October 09, 2017, 05:31:31 AM
Splendid essay.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 09, 2017, 06:22:51 AM
Love the essay and such, but if I may be a curmudgeon for a second: classical music in newspapers isn't helped if the paywall (in this case) or at the very least clicks on the article are syphoned off by cross-posting the content. If we like the fact that newspapers let people like Jumppanen write about such topics, we should all click on the article (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-maestros-bleakest-work-1507307118) (even if we don't have access), or access it through a Google News search (which usually works) and most of all: COMMENT on it. Editors measure the worthiness of an article by the amount of comments, I am afraid to say.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on October 09, 2017, 06:29:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 09, 2017, 05:31:31 AM
Splendid essay.

I thought so too!  0:)   The idea of Beethoven swirling together the "delight" of Mozart and the "surprise" of Haydn - together with his own innate sense of drama, contemplation, joy, etc. - is an excellent observation.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 09, 2017, 06:22:51 AM
Love the essay and such, but if I may be a curmudgeon for a second: classical music in newspapers isn't helped if the paywall (in this case) or at the very least clicks on the article are syphoned off by cross-posting the content. If we like the fact that newspapers let people like Jumppanen write about such topics, we should all click on the article (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-maestros-bleakest-work-1507307118) (even if we don't have access), or access it through a Google News search (which usually works) and most of all: COMMENT on it. Editors measure the worthiness of an article by the amount of comments, I am afraid to say.

I did not give the usual link because, unfortunately, unless you are a subscriber, what you will see is an ad for subscribing, after the first paragraph or so.  The Wall Street Journal used to allow subscribers to spread the article via a link, but now even that has been proscribed.

As a 25+ year subscriber, I am often surveyed by the company about the likes and dislikes, and so I always push the Arts/Music/Literature etc. articles which still, thankfully, appear.  With the birth of the weekend edition some years ago,the WSJ has improved greatly on that point.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 09, 2017, 06:58:45 AM
Quote from: Cato on October 09, 2017, 06:29:36 AM

As a 25+ year subscriber, I am often surveyed by the company about the likes and dislikes, and so I always push the Arts/Music/Literature etc. articles which still, thankfully, appear.  With the birth of the weekend edition some years ago, the WSJ has improved greatly on that point.

I didn't mean to be combative - just saying how editors work. And glad for everything that's going in the right direction. Incidentally, you can still access the article w/out a subscription by Google-NEWS searching the title. That way, they still get the click and (I think) some money from Google.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on October 09, 2017, 08:15:27 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 09, 2017, 06:58:45 AM
I didn't mean to be combative - just saying how editors work. And glad for everything that's going in the right direction. Incidentally, you can still access the article w/out a subscription by Google-NEWS searching the title. That way, they still get the click and (I think) some money from Google.

No no, I did not assume anything combative!  0:)  Good to know about by-passing the ad/restriction!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 10, 2017, 03:43:37 AM
Beethoven Piano Sonata Cycle Survey updated: Richard Goode's 1993 Nonesuch cycle has been re-issued by Warner.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)
Beethoven Sonatas - A Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 4, 1990 - 1996
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 11, 2017, 01:12:22 AM
I would have thought the 'Moonlight' sonata was equally an example of a dramatic minor key finale.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 13, 2017, 07:02:28 AM
It's been a couple years, but I've finally put the information I have collected into a preliminary shape of an alphabetical index (with links) of every (?) Beethoven Symphony Cycle ever recorded. (And some that aren't really cycles, but you'll pardon that. Tricky cut-off line and I'd rather be too inclusive than exclusive.)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GVYL76wjogc/VPDiG_9HcQI/AAAAAAAAIDs/DjLDsB7X58E/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)

A Survey of Beethoven Symphony Cycles: Alphabetical Index

(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

Any and all help is much appreciated. Obviously many details are not included in this listing, but will in the final form -- such as soloists of the 9th, choirs, and to which extent some cycles are not complete or cobbled together or partially identical.

Thread might best be pursued in here: Re: Complete Sets of Beethoven's Symphonies (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,24054.msg1097679.html#msg1097679)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 13, 2017, 01:02:08 PM
Arguably the all-round best #LvB SQ4t cycle there is! Finally given some re-release love w/a deluxe edition!
Hard to believe the Quartet had to pay for the recordings, when they made them.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOiLpWuXkAA5c4Z.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Beethoven on @deccaclassics



w/#TakacsQuartet. ♡♡♡♡♡ / ☆☆☆☆☆ Argua... http://ift.tt/2id2Rp7  (http://a-fwd.to/ogVJ4wv)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 13, 2017, 03:26:48 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 13, 2017, 01:02:08 PM
Arguably the all-round best #LvB SQ4t cycle there is! Finally given some re-release love w/a deluxe edition!
Hard to believe the Quartet had to pay for the recordings, when they made them.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOiLpWuXkAA5c4Z.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Beethoven on @deccaclassics

w/#TakacsQuartet. ♡♡♡♡♡ / ☆☆☆☆☆ Argua... http://ift.tt/2id2Rp7  (http://a-fwd.to/ogVJ4wv)

I have the original Takács releases of the early and middle quartets. They're my faves for those quartets. For the late, still lovin' the Hagens.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on November 13, 2017, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 13, 2017, 01:02:08 PM
Arguably the all-round best #LvB SQ4t cycle there is! Finally given some re-release love w/a deluxe edition!
Hard to believe the Quartet had to pay for the recordings, when they made them.

To what extent is the edition deluxe? Is it claimed that the compact discs are "remastered?" The recordings are from 2002-2004 and from the booklet it appears they were recorded using standard PCM technology. My experience is that the original releases of recordings from that general time frame are already more or less as good as they are going to get.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2017, 05:25:16 PM
I think deluxe refers to the packaging.

As it happens,  I am listening to the Quatour Mosaiques recording of the late quartets right now (CD 1, nos 12 and 14). Despite the gut strings and A=432, I am most reminded of Quartetto Italiano.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on November 14, 2017, 03:49:00 AM
I would have happily bought that Takacs box, if I hadn't already bought the Middle and Late quartets from the series. Hunted them down only a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on November 14, 2017, 03:51:50 AM
The Takács early quartets are also worth it, fwiw. (That's a cycle I'm definitely looking forward to reviewing)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on November 14, 2017, 03:57:37 AM
Quote from: amw on November 14, 2017, 03:51:50 AM
The Takács early quartets are also worth it, fwiw. (That's a cycle I'm definitely looking forward to reviewing)

I've no doubt they are, but I already had the Tokyo Qt in those and I don't think the 3 separate Takacs sets were particularly cheap when I was looking for them. So I didn't double-up. With the new format I think I would have been happy with the overlap.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 14, 2017, 11:10:27 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 13, 2017, 03:42:18 PM
To what extent is the edition deluxe? Is it claimed that the compact discs are "remastered?" The recordings are from 2002-2004 and from the booklet it appears they were recorded using standard PCM technology. My experience is that the original releases of recordings from that general time frame are already more or less as good as they are going to get.

Jeffrey is right: It refers to the packaging -- BUT also to the fact that the cycle is included as an Audio-Blu-ray and they throw in a DVD.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 14, 2017, 11:12:11 AM
Quote from: amw on November 14, 2017, 03:51:50 AM
The Takács early quartets are also worth it, fwiw. (That's a cycle I'm definitely looking forward to reviewing)

I agree; although I consider them the leaders of the large pack (see http://ionarts.blogspot.de/2017/09/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html)), it's their op.18 that stands out more than the rest.
But then again, op.18 is the set that more quartets get right than they do the rest...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 14, 2017, 02:41:27 PM
Hey All - I have owned the complete Tackás recordings for a while (i.e. the 3 top images below, a total of 7 CDs) - now I see on Amazon, the box at the bottom, a new offering w/ 9 discs, i.e. the 7 CDs + audio BD + bonus DVD - my question is whether these recordings have been remastered and also for those who have listened to the CDs vs. the audio BD, is the sound MUCH improved?  My BD player is connected to my receiver via a digital fiber optic Toslink cable - speakers are older EV stereo only - is this 'new' package worth my exploration?  Thanks for any comments.  Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81BoVQ53Q-L._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71LOIv2sOzL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61y0cBkwgHL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/713HdB9v58L._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61TaqP7R5SL.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 15, 2017, 06:23:42 AM
Well, still curious about the 'new' Takacs Quartet release - found a brief description (first image below) stating that the original recordings were remastered and that an HF audio BD was also produced (along w/ a bonus DVD) - just for comparison, my other 'complete' set of these works is by the Alexander String Quartet (2nd image below), which has been highly lauded - an excellent review is attached for those interested.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-G3wFK22/0/708e6a30/O/Beethoven_Takacs.png)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TW5OcbqPL.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on November 15, 2017, 07:23:40 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 15, 2017, 06:23:42 AM
Well, still curious about the 'new' Takacs Quartet release - found a brief description (first image below) stating that the original recordings were remastered and that an HF audio BD was also produced (along w/ a bonus DVD) - just for comparison, my other 'complete' set of these works is by the Alexander String Quartet (2nd image below), which has been highly lauded - an excellent review is attached for those interested.  Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-G3wFK22/0/708e6a30/O/Beethoven_Takacs.png)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TW5OcbqPL.jpg)

Typical vague advertising copy. They don't say what the format of the original tapes is. Were the original tapes 24-bit, 48 kHz, in which case the Bluray disc is giving the original resolution? Were they some other format and reprocessed to 24-bit, 48 kHz?

Certainly a very fine set and nice that they have a reasonably priced reissue, but I think whether it sounds different will depend on remastering choices, such as whether they have a multi-channel recording that they can remix with adjusted balances.

Regarding the Alexander quartet, I recall when it came out a bunch of "reviews" immediately appeared on Amazon claiming it was the greatest piece of recorded music in the history of civilization. Maybe they were paid, maybe they were written by the performer's mothers, but they seemed so obviously fake that I was put off and probably prevented me from buying the set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 15, 2017, 07:47:07 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 15, 2017, 07:23:40 AM
Typical vague advertising copy. They don't say what the format of the original tapes is. Were the original tapes 24-bit, 48 kHz, in which case the Bluray disc is giving the original resolution? Were they some other format and reprocessed to 24-bit, 48 kHz?

Certainly a very fine set and nice that they have a reasonably priced reissue, but I think whether it sounds different will depend on remastering choices, such as whether they have a multi-channel recording that they can remix with adjusted balances.

Regarding the Alexander quartet, I recall when it came out a bunch of "reviews" immediately appeared on Amazon claiming it was the greatest piece of recorded music in the history of civilization. Maybe they were paid, maybe they were written by the performer's mothers, but they seemed so obviously fake that I was put off and probably prevented me from buying the set.

Agree about the 'scanty' information in the pic that I posted - the review that I attached is from MusicWeb and is well done in my mind (and doubt the reviewer is a relative -  :laugh:) - :)

Quote from: San Antonio on November 15, 2017, 07:29:16 AM
I didn't see or don't remember the reviews for the Alexander Quartet set, but I have it in my Amazon library (not purchased)  and it is a solid/decent, but not exceptional, set.  As is the case for all these complete sets some quartets are better than others. 

I also have the Takacs, but while not having done any kind of comparions, I think of the Takacs as better overall.

San Antone - if not already done, take a look at the review that I attached in my post. Dave
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on November 15, 2017, 07:55:58 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 15, 2017, 07:47:07 AM
Agree about the 'scanty' information in the pic that I posted - the review that I attached is from MusicWeb and is well done in my mind (and doubt the reviewer is a relative -  :laugh:) - :)

Memories are returning (although they may be wrong). I seem to remember some hype at the time that they were using a specially matched set of violins and this was being pushed hard in some reviews. Maybe my memory is playing tricks.

In any case, I'm not in the market for more Beethoven String Quartets, I have too many sets to listen to as it is. I can relate to Mit Romney who, when asked during the campaign event, couldn't remember how many houses he had.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on November 15, 2017, 08:16:41 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on November 15, 2017, 07:55:58 AM
Memories are returning (although they may be wrong). I seem to remember some hype at the time that they were using a specially matched set of violins and this was being pushed hard in some reviews. Maybe my memory is playing tricks.

In any case, I'm not in the market for more Beethoven String Quartets, I have too many sets to listen to as it is. I can relate to Mit Romney who, when asked during the campaign event, couldn't remember how many houses he had.
It's possible that the reviewers were in the know already because the box set was a compilation of three previously-released mini-sets of the early, middle, and late sonatas. Given the special set of violins comment, it seems unlikely that Amazon did their usual botch job of accidentally porting over reviews from the wrong item (in this case the ASQ's totally different Arte Nova recording cycle), as happens with different translations of the same Russian novel.

The Foghorn set (which I love) is recorded on a complete "quartet" of newly built instruments, and there is a little flyer in the set about the instrument-maker, kind of like the little cards you get telling you a restaurant has a Saturday buffet. I can't say that the instruments are a big sell to me, though the Judith Sherman engineering is.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Parsifal on November 15, 2017, 08:37:41 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 15, 2017, 08:16:41 AMThe Foghorn set (which I love) is recorded on a complete "quartet" of newly built instruments, and there is a little flyer in the set about the instrument-maker, kind of like the little cards you get telling you a restaurant has a Saturday buffet. I can't say that the instruments are a big sell to me, though the Judith Sherman engineering is.

That's what I'm remembering, a bunch of reviews lauding the instruments, which struck me as blatant boosterism. They don't seem to be around anymore.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 12:17:17 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 15, 2017, 07:47:07 AM
Agree about the 'scanty' information in the pic that I posted - the review that I attached is from MusicWeb and is well done in my mind (and doubt the reviewer is a relative -  :laugh:) - :)


Even a modestly reliable critic can be right by accident. Don't know if Brian reviewed that set for MWeb, too, but he certainly loves it no less.
Myself, I think that the op.18 of that set is terrific and up there with the best. That said, they don't touch Takacs over the whole 16.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 15, 2017, 01:02:45 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 15, 2017, 12:17:17 PM
Cookson is a damnable hack, but that's not to say that he can't be right, by accident. Don't know if Brian reviewed that set for MWeb, too, but he certainly loves it no less.
Myself, I think that the op.18 of that set is terrific and up there with the best. That said, they don't touch Takacs over the whole 16.

Well, I've had the Takács SQ recordings for a while (bought cheaply when I was a member of the BMG club) and certainly a favorite, but I do like the Alexander SQ also - today, started to listen to both groups and will make that my project for the rest of the week - still debating on whether to buy that new box release - not that expensive on Amazon USA and like the bonus material including a large booklet? 

Below a pic of the Takács members from 2001 (in 2005, the violist change, now Geraldine Walther) - also just purchased the Kindle book shown by the first violinist, Edward Dusinberre and am about a third through the 2016 publication - description/comments at Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Later-Age-Living-Quartets/dp/022637436X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1510773194&sr=1-1&keywords=Beethoven+for+a+Later+Age%3A+Living+with+the+String+Quartets&dpID=51LoXkkgRmL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch), if interested.  Dave :)
.
(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/894fd4bd2c88a3557dec48a428e89b32?width=1024) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51LoXkkgRmL._SX320_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 17, 2017, 12:08:51 AM
(http://ift.tt/2j2M1cm)
#morninglistening to #LvB #pianoconcertos w/@CleveOrchestra:

http://a-fwd.to/28qb0Pv

w/#VladimirAshkenazy.

I would argue this to be his best of the three #Beethoven #pianoconcerto cycles. The orchestra responds very nimbly. There is a reason these self-conducted affairs take place with the #clevelandorchestra!

#classicalmusic
#classicalmusiccollection #Decca #orchestralmusic #pianoconcertos #germanromanticism #Ludwigvan #ludwigvanbeethoven #classicalcdcollection

(http://a-fwd.to/28qb0Pv)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Stathis on December 03, 2017, 08:25:13 PM
Hello. About the controversial subject of Beethoven's tempi, I've been making some research and just realized one important fact that many maybe seem to be missing. The 9th was played in other parts of the world several months after it's debut in 1824, and received raving critiques. His other symphonies were also played by orchestras all over. So the conductors must have naturally followed the tempi that Beethoven marked. We have the original manuscript, and if it had wrong markings, they would have been corrected while Beethoven was still alive, in order for his 9th to have been played appropriately. The same goes for the broken metronome argument. Other conductors that played his symphonies must have communicated with Beethoven if they though his markings were off. Maybe some of these conductors were in the debut as well. The other argument that I've seen is that at the time they used one complete cycle of the metronome back and fourth, as one beat, so that would mean that the tempo should be halved, or something like that, and while not an expert on classical music, far from it, I am not sure about it, as it possibly wouldn't agree with the old system of "Allegro ma non troppo" e.t.c.

Also, Toscanini chose fast tempos, almost at the original markings, and since he was a conductor closer to Beethoven's time than most on record, maybe it's another hint. Of course Beethoven himself varied his tempi, and in the end it's up to the conductor to choose one that agrees with the orchestra, place and other factors, and produce a nice result. Listening to Norrington's and Toscanini's 1st movement of the 9th, they seem to make it work just fine, while on the other hand Furtwangler was very slow, but that allowed a dramatic feel to it. But probably not what Beethoven had in mind. Beethoven was a virtuoso, so it makes sense that most of his work is challenging, and it's challenging because it is fast.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 04, 2017, 06:37:22 AM
If you're interested in LvB Temo Questions and speak/understand German, this is good viewing.

North German Broadcasting 2-hour special about that subject (as part of a 4-hour thing about the Bremen Chamber Philharmonic).

Available for a few more days. https://www.ndr.de/ndrkultur/sendungen/prisma_musik/Variationen-zum-Thema-02122017,audio362662.html (https://www.ndr.de/ndrkultur/sendungen/prisma_musik/Variationen-zum-Thema-02122017,audio362662.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Stathis on December 04, 2017, 09:09:58 AM
Unfortunately I don't speak German, yet. A quick recap on the main points would help.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: jpar3 on December 18, 2017, 11:31:48 AM
My fave Beethoven:

Piano Sonata 0p 110
Cello Sonata Op 69
Egmont Overture
Piano Concerto 4
Waldstein Sonata
1st Rasumovsky Quartet
Kreutzer Sonata
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Baron Scarpia on December 19, 2017, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: Stathis on December 03, 2017, 08:25:13 PM
Hello. About the controversial subject of Beethoven's tempi, I've been making some research and just realized one important fact that many maybe seem to be missing. The 9th was played in other parts of the world several months after it's debut in 1824, and received raving critiques. His other symphonies were also played by orchestras all over. So the conductors must have naturally followed the tempi that Beethoven marked. We have the original manuscript, and if it had wrong markings, they would have been corrected while Beethoven was still alive, in order for his 9th to have been played appropriately. The same goes for the broken metronome argument. Other conductors that played his symphonies must have communicated with Beethoven if they though his markings were off. Maybe some of these conductors were in the debut as well. The other argument that I've seen is that at the time they used one complete cycle of the metronome back and fourth, as one beat, so that would mean that the tempo should be halved, or something like that, and while not an expert on classical music, far from it, I am not sure about it, as it possibly wouldn't agree with the old system of "Allegro ma non troppo" e.t.c.

Your argument has huge assumptions. In Beethoven's time the metronome had just started to come into use. Quite possibly contemporary conductors looked at the traditional tempo markings and simply ignored the metronome markings.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 31, 2018, 12:41:41 PM
Latest on Forbes.com


Classical CD Of The Week: Classic Beethoven From Vienna Via Korea
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F01%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BEETHOVEN_Isserstedt_DECCA_Wiener-Philharmoniker_Vienna-Philharmonic_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bsize=14pt%5DClassical%20CD%20Of%20The%20Week:%20Classic%20Beethoven%20From%20Vienna%20Via%20Korea%5B/size%5D) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/31/classical-cd-of-the-week-classic-beethoven-from-vienna-via-korea/#79be4a8c6023)

I would argue that this is the most successful of the six cycles the orchestra has recorded.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on February 01, 2018, 03:08:04 AM
Enjoy Beethoven better with this one weird trick
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on February 01, 2018, 07:24:15 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 31, 2018, 12:41:41 PM
Latest on Forbes.com


Classical CD Of The Week: Classic Beethoven From Vienna Via Korea
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F01%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BEETHOVEN_Isserstedt_DECCA_Wiener-Philharmoniker_Vienna-Philharmonic_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bsize=14pt%5DClassical%20CD%20Of%20The%20Week:%20Classic%20Beethoven%20From%20Vienna%20Via%20Korea%5B/size%5D) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/31/classical-cd-of-the-week-classic-beethoven-from-vienna-via-korea/#79be4a8c6023)

I would argue that this is the most successful of the six cycles the orchestra has recorded.

Physical discs can only be acquired from Korea, but the whole cycle (incl. the piano concerts with Backhaus and the violin concerto with Szeryng) can be downloaded in FLAC format from Presto Classical:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7923782--beethoven-complete-symphonies-other-works

I had some problems however with the Choral finale (unable to burn this particular movement to CDR- surely a file error), which Presto couldn't solve for me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 01, 2018, 07:43:37 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 01, 2018, 07:24:15 AM
Physical discs can only be acquired from Korea, but the whole cycle (incl. the piano concerts with Backhaus and the violin concerto with Szeryng) can be downloaded in FLAC format from Presto Classical:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7923782--beethoven-complete-symphonies-other-works

I had some problems however with the Choral finale (unable to burn this particular movement to CDR- surely a file error), which Presto couldn't solve for me.

Correct; also Apple Music has it with and without Decca branding. But I'm so physical in my outlook and habit, as regards music, that if it doesn't exist on CD, it just doesn't exist for me.  :D My flaw.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: premont on February 01, 2018, 08:00:57 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 01, 2018, 07:43:37 AM
Correct; also Apple Music has it with and without Decca branding. But I'm so physical in my outlook and habit, as regards music, that if it doesn't exist on CD, it just doesn't exist for me.  :D My flaw.

So was I until about two years ago. Too many CDs, I wanted to hear, were unavailable as physical discs, so I resigned and began to purchase these in the shape of downloads. So far I have not regretted this.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2018, 02:47:32 AM
Thanks to our Scarps for providing the final straw, as it were . . . I have at last reeled in the Pollini set of the pf sonatas.  It is a little misleading if I say I have been loving it.  I mean, it's musically true, but I have also been stuck (and entirely agreeably) listening mostly to the Hammerklavier.

I do propose to get out and about within that box more, though, and soon.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 02, 2018, 08:14:11 AM
Glad it's been a positive experience. I wouldn't feel bad about getting stuck on the Hammerklavier. I think overall 90% of my listening to Pollini's Beethoven Piano Sonata recordings have been the Late Sonatas, where his unique skills really find their true field of action.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 20, 2018, 07:49:20 AM

A Survey of Beethoven String Quartet Cycles
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYQWtbpDv9Q/UPQjw3NPXEI/AAAAAAAAFro/1OCHnnTJ3H8/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)
Edit 20/05/18: The Budapest 1951/52 cycle has been re-issued on Sony and the Cremona Quartet cycle will be boxed for the first time. Both have been added below.
...
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kyjo on May 25, 2018, 08:10:35 AM
How beautiful the second (and final) movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata no. 27 is! The recurring rondo theme has an almost Schubertian simplicity that is quite affecting.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 30, 2018, 02:06:05 PM
latest on ClassicsToday:

Level-Headed Beethoven From Leipzig
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeebRNXWsAAgIDL.jpg)
(https://www.classicstoday.com/review/level-headed-beethoven-from-leipzig/)

In a way, every cycle of Beethoven's string quartets is impressive–even with 50-some (67, to be precise) on the market already. That's certainly true of the "complete-complete" traversal by the Leipzig String Quartet, recorded between 1994 and 2006 (the string quintets were added in 2011)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 30, 2018, 04:35:53 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 31, 2018, 12:41:41 PM
Latest on Forbes.com


Classical CD Of The Week: Classic Beethoven From Vienna Via Korea
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F01%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BEETHOVEN_Isserstedt_DECCA_Wiener-Philharmoniker_Vienna-Philharmonic_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg%3Fwidth%3D960%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bsize=14pt%5DClassical%20CD%20Of%20The%20Week:%20Classic%20Beethoven%20From%20Vienna%20Via%20Korea%5B/size%5D) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/01/31/classical-cd-of-the-week-classic-beethoven-from-vienna-via-korea/#79be4a8c6023)

I would argue that this is the most successful of the six cycles the orchestra has recorded.
No wonder that cover art looks familiar:

[asin]B000BUEGF4[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on May 31, 2018, 08:46:22 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 30, 2018, 04:35:53 PM
No wonder that cover art looks familiar:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BUEGF4.01.L.jpg)
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F01%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_BEETHOVEN_Isserstedt_DECCA_Wiener-Philharmoniker_Vienna-Philharmonic_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeebRNXWsAAgIDL.jpg)

So, the recording of the Welsh songs of Beethoven is finished now? Do we have the final edits? Do we have the approval of the soprano re. her bio? OK. Let's go to print.

Sir, what about the cover?

A picture of the artists, perhaps? They like that!

Sir, have you seen the pianist?

Oh, just image-google "Beethoven", then.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2018, 11:06:32 AM
Just browing SurprisedByBeauty's nice compilation of every complete LVB symphony cycle out there. Can't help noticing that only 2 cycles from the Staatskapelle Dresden - for a major German orchestra that is almost impossible.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 07, 2018, 11:43:45 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2018, 11:06:32 AM
Just browing SurprisedByBeauty's nice compilation of every complete LVB symphony cycle out there. Can't help noticing that only 2 cycles from the Staatskapelle Dresden - for a major German orchestra that is almost impossible.

Blomstedt & Davis... ottmh. Right? {Correct, as I checked my database}

Oh, and if anyone's looking for that listing (just the alphabetical one; I'm still working on the proper discography more like the one of the String Quartets), it's here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

I assume it might have something to do with the surprisingly short average 'life-span' of StaKap music directors.


Let's look at those that have reasonably been within the 'recording age':

1922–1933 Fritz Busch
1934–1943 Karl Böhm
1943–1944 Karl Elmendorff

This was before the idea of 'complete cycles' were a thing and recording was difficult. Also: the war didn't help.

1945–1950 Joseph Keilberth
1949–1953 Rudolf Kempe
1953–1955 Franz Konwitschny
1956–1958 Lovro von Matačić
1960–1964 Otmar Suitner
1964–1967 Kurt Sanderling
1966–1968 Martin Turnovský

None of these stayed for longer than 5 years; they probably didn't even perform all 9 Beethoven symphonies in their tenure.


1975–1985 Herbert Blomstedt Bingo!

1985–1990 Hans Vonk He was largely doing contemporary music, or at least a lot of it.

1992–2001 Giuseppe Sinopoli Didn't seem that interested in Beethoven; had many options, as far as recording anything were concerned... and died prematurely.

2002–2004 Bernard Haitink Just temporary

2007–2010 Fabio Luisi Too short

2012–present Christian Thielemann He's just recorded one with Vienna - like Rattle, before he went to Berlin - but still might record a Dresden cycle, if he stays there for more than, say, another 4 years.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Daverz on June 07, 2018, 12:21:54 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2018, 11:06:32 AM
Just browing SurprisedByBeauty's nice compilation of every complete LVB symphony cycle out there. Can't help noticing that only 2 cycles from the Staatskapelle Dresden - for a major German orchestra that is almost impossible.

I'm fond of the Blomstedt cycle, though it tends to get dismissed as "kapellmeister Beethoven". 

[asin] B007NCP86E[/asin]

He has a new cycle with the Gewandhaus.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: Daverz on June 07, 2018, 12:21:54 PM
I'm fond of the Blomstedt cycle, though it tends to get dismissed as "kapellmeister Beethoven". 

[asin] B007NCP86E[/asin]

He has a new cycle with the Gewandhaus.
Not sure about "dismissed" as I haven't come across a negative review of that cycle. It is well-played, well-recorded, and nothing that will shock anyone. I like it a lot.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 07, 2018, 11:43:45 AM
Blomstedt & Davis... ottmh. Right? {Correct, as I checked my database}

Oh, and if anyone's looking for that listing (just the alphabetical one; I'm still working on the proper discography more like the one of the String Quartets), it's here: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

I assume it might have something to do with the surprisingly short average 'life-span' of StaKap music directors.


Let's look at those that have reasonably been within the 'recording age':

1922–1933 Fritz Busch
1934–1943 Karl Böhm
1943–1944 Karl Elmendorff

This was before the idea of 'complete cycles' were a thing and recording was difficult. Also: the war didn't help.

1945–1950 Joseph Keilberth
1949–1953 Rudolf Kempe
1953–1955 Franz Konwitschny
1956–1958 Lovro von Matačić
1960–1964 Otmar Suitner
1964–1967 Kurt Sanderling
1966–1968 Martin Turnovský

None of these stayed for longer than 5 years; they probably didn't even perform all 9 Beethoven symphonies in their tenure.


1975–1985 Herbert Blomstedt Bingo!

1985–1990 Hans Vonk He was largely doing contemporary music, or at least a lot of it.

1992–2001 Giuseppe Sinopoli Didn't seem that interested in Beethoven; had many options, as far as recording anything were concerned... and died prematurely.

2002–2004 Bernard Haitink Just temporary

2007–2010 Fabio Luisi Too short

2012–present Christian Thielemann He's just recorded one with Vienna - like Rattle, before he went to Berlin - but still might record a Dresden cycle, if he stays there for more than, say, another 4 years.

Not to beat on a dead man but as far as Sinopoli goes for someone who died prematurely he sure left a rather large recording legacy already so I am not sure whether there really is anything regret there that he didn't do a Beethoven cycle.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 08, 2018, 12:34:18 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 07, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
Not sure about "dismissed" as I haven't come across a negative review of that cycle. It is well-played, well-recorded, and nothing that will shock anyone. I like it a lot.

Not to beat on a dead man but as far as Sinopoli goes for someone who died prematurely he sure left a rather large recording legacy already so I am not sure whether there really is anything regret there that he didn't do a Beethoven cycle.

Yes, I think whenever "Kapellmeister-ish" has been used in relation with the Blomstedt-cycle, it's been followed by "in the best sense". The new cycle is all that but adapted to today's standards (Del Mar score, tempi, alacrity).

Don't know how I feel about a hypothetical Sinopoli Beethoven cycle. I love a LOT of what Sinopoli did... in fact, most... and yet I think that his Beethoven would have been vaguely thick and boring. Irrational, perhaps, but there you have it.

Perhaps stupid, too, because we could check out how his Beethoven sounded - there's more of it than I knew... albeit only one (?) with the StaKap.

Of course the Piano Concertos 1 & 2 with Argerich (http://a-fwd.to/7GyTGsi) (Philharmonia).
The Violin Concerto & Romances with Shlomo Mintz (http://a-fwd.to/Nl8WUDr) (Philharmonia).
Symphony No.9 (http://a-fwd.to/3QP6OXl) (Dresden StaKap) - and
Symphony No.3 (http://a-fwd.to/3R6XfwO). (Israel Phil, Helicon)
That - and a chorus from Fidelio (http://a-fwd.to/n9IwTG8).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 08, 2018, 05:57:01 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 08, 2018, 12:34:18 AM
Yes, I think whenever "Kapellmeister-ish" has been used in relation with the Blomstedt-cycle, it's been followed by "in the best sense".

I truly dislike that term "Kapelmeister-ish" as people tend to selectively apply that term to any traditional or "old school" interpretation. It has loosely been applied to such diverse individuals as Masur, Bohm, Suitner, Haitink and yes Blomstedt although there is nothing similar in their intepretations. While other rather traditional interpretations like Wand, Barenboim and Solti have not been deemed "Kapelmeister-ish". I think it is a rather lazy way to label a particular reading.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 09, 2018, 12:51:09 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 08, 2018, 05:57:01 PM
I truly dislike that term "Kapelmeister-ish" as people tend to selectively apply that term to any traditional or "old school" interpretation. It has loosely been applied to such diverse individuals as Masur, Bohm, Suitner, Haitink and yes Blomstedt although there is nothing similar in their intepretations. While other rather traditional interpretations like Wand, Barenboim and Solti have not been deemed "Kapelmeister-ish". I think it is a rather lazy way to label a particular reading.

I can't comment on its use and abuse so much as what I think it denotes... which is a no-fingerprints, hands-off approach to the music... often also associated with a kind of background (rising through the ranks, instrument--co-repetitor--assistant--operetta/opera-house experience--conductor--music-director). Masur, I think, would qualify... Blomstedt, too, and especially Sawallisch. But you are right, there is no clear delineation and only because they may fit that term, there's no saying that their interpretations would also or necessarily be more similar than disparate.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Baron Scarpia on June 09, 2018, 06:58:30 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 09, 2018, 12:51:09 AM
I can't comment on its use and abuse so much as what I think it denotes... which is a no-fingerprints, hands-off approach to the music... often also associated with a kind of background (rising through the ranks, instrument--co-repetitor--assistant--operetta/opera-house experience--conductor--music-director). Masur, I think, would qualify... Blomstedt, too, and especially Sawallisch. But you are right, there is no clear delineation and only because they may fit that term, there's no saying that their interpretations would also or necessarily be more similar than disparate.

Isn't that a perfect description of Karajan (who I've never heard described as a kapellmeister). You hear the odd story of someone who substitutes for someone with no notice and is recognized as a prodigious talent (Toscanini) but this is the rare exception, no?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 09, 2018, 08:17:23 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on June 09, 2018, 06:58:30 AM
Isn't that a perfect description of Karajan (who I've never heard described as a kapellmeister). You hear the odd story of someone who substitutes for someone with no notice and is recognized as a prodigious talent (Toscanini) but this is the rare exception, no?

It is. Or Thielemann. Neither would be considered "Kapellmeister", though, on account of the force of their personality. But both really knew how to do it (whatever one may say about Karajan, he sure knew the trade and wasn't a faker) from the ground up... but both super-added something, didn't they?!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 17, 2018, 03:33:00 AM
Latest on ClassicsToday:


The Reference: The Takács Quartet's Beethoven Cycle
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnStu_JW0AAo2FV.jpg)
At the Freer Gallery, or at the Corcoran Gallery (when it was still a chamber music oasis in Washington, DC), or at the more humble Landon School Mondzac Performing Arts Center, the Takács Quartet made my life better with their performances of Bartók, Beethoven, Haydn,... Continue Reading (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-reference-the-takacs-quartets-beethoven-cycle/) [Insider Content, sound clips]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 18, 2018, 12:03:48 AM
Just something that occurred to me today, I have heard quite a few 'authentic' performances of Beethoven works and with the symphonies you often get tempi which some consider too fast, and yet I haven't heard authentic performances of the concerti which exceed the traditional tempi by much. Is this because Beethoven metronome marks exist for the symphonies but not the concertos, or is it that the soloists in the concertos don't want to play so fast?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on September 26, 2018, 07:40:36 AM
Probably a bit of both. There no original Metronome markings by Beethoven for the concertos (although probably some from Czerny) and I have the suspicion that the compromise between soloist and conductor usually leads to "mainstreaming" of tempi and other interpretive choices.
I have not done anything like a survey (and I also don't like historical pianos in Beethoven concertos) but there are some fairly fast recordings that probably come close to what might be "authentic". E.g. the first movements of the first two concerti in Gould's recording (not the slow movements, though).
The concerto movement played furthest from the tempo suggestion (by Czerny) is probably the middle movement of the violin concerto. larghetto was synonymous with andante for Beethoven (we have letters where he calls either this movement or another with that indication "andante") and while I forgot the metronome suggestion from Czerny, the typical tempo is about half that. The fastest I know is the earlier recording by Tetzlaff (with Gielen) at about 7:30 min. but in his later recording he came back to something like 9 min.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on September 26, 2018, 08:10:43 AM
I think it's more a matter of Beethoven never having given his concertos any metronome markings.*




(He wrote, retroactively in most cases, metronome markings into the symphonies, string quartets 1-11 + op. 20; op.106, op. 112, op. 121b; and op. 137.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 07, 2018, 03:04:54 PM



A Survey of Beethoven Symphony Cycles: Alphabetical Index

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GVYL76wjogc/VPDiG_9HcQI/AAAAAAAAIDs/DjLDsB7X58E/s1600/Beethoven_basic_laurson_600.jpg)


https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

Found another Beethoven Symphony Cycle from the Des Moines Symphony. Added. Still need to add Rögner and Yamada, though.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 18, 2018, 04:50:08 AM
Someone wrote on another (not music-related) forum: "So as I was driving cross town today — town being LA — listening to a classical music station — calming in LA traffic — they were discussing how conductors don't like the slow movement in Beethoven's 8th symphony so they often substitute the slow movement from the 7th."

Has anyone ever heard of this? I can't imagine it actually happening today. You can't just throw a movement in A minor into a symphony in F.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on October 18, 2018, 05:01:58 AM
I mean you can, the keys are fairly closely related (the scherzo of the 7th is in F), but I've never heard of this specific practice in the twentieth or twenty-first centuries. (Also neither movement is "slow", they're both Allegrettos >.>)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 05:22:51 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 18, 2018, 04:50:08 AM
Someone wrote on another (not music-related) forum: "So as I was driving cross town today — town being LA — listening to a classical music station — calming in LA traffic — they were discussing how conductors don't like the slow movement in Beethoven's 8th symphony so they often substitute the slow movement from the 7th."

Has anyone ever heard of this? I can't imagine it actually happening today. You can't just throw a movement in A minor into a symphony in F.

I did read many years ago that it was the practice to add (not substitute) the Allegretto from the 7th to the 8th . No idea when or for how long, or even where this practice was prevalent. This is one of those useless pieces of information that has become lodged in my brain and I can no longer remember where I first read it - probably in a sleeve note.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2018, 05:23:09 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 18, 2018, 04:50:08 AM
Someone wrote on another (not music-related) forum: "So as I was driving cross town today — town being LA — listening to a classical music station — calming in LA traffic — they were discussing how conductors don't like the slow movement in Beethoven's 8th symphony so they often substitute the slow movement from the 7th."

Has anyone ever heard of this? I can't imagine it actually happening today. You can't just throw a movement in A minor into a symphony in F.

Yeesh.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 05:31:21 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 05:22:51 AM
I did read many years ago that it was the practice to add (not substitute) the Allegretto from the 7th to the 8th . No idea when or for how long, or even where this practice was prevalent. This is one of those useless pieces of information that has become lodged in my brain and I can no longer remember where I first read it - probably in a sleeve note.

'The Seventh was a great success; so much so that the Allegretto had often to be repeated even to the extent of adding it, as a bonne bouche, to performances of the Eighth Symphony'

Sleeve notes by C.B. Rees for the Colin Davis/Royal Philharmonic Orchestra recording of the Seventh Symphony (1961).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 18, 2018, 05:32:49 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 05:31:21 AM
'The Seventh was a great success; so much so that the Allegretto had often to be repeated even to the extent of adding it, as a bonne bouche, to performances of the Eighth Symphony'

Sleeve notes by C.B. Rees for the Colin Davis/Royal Philharmonic Orchestra recording of the Seventh Symphony (1961).

Thanks. When was this done?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 05:36:39 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 18, 2018, 05:32:49 AM
Thanks. When was this done?

Sorry, that quote is all the information I have. From the context I would guess the first half of the 19th century.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 18, 2018, 05:42:45 AM
Quote from: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 05:36:39 AM
Sorry, that quote is all the information I have. From the context I would guess the first half of the 19th century.

That is what I was thinking as well.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2018, 09:28:44 AM
They did all kinds of stuff back then. E.g. Silcher set songs or choirs to famous Beethoven slowish tunes, including the main theme of the 7th's allegretto.
And this sounds more like the allegretto from the 7th being played in addition to the other movements of the 8th. Or maybe even as an encore. Or someone could have transposed it to the more fitting d minor.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2018, 03:18:04 PM
My dad had CDs of the Karajan 60s cycle and I definitely remember the notes mentioning movements being inserted into other symphonies. The Allegretto of the 7th found its way into more than one other symphony if I remember correctly. I have a feeling it was shoved into the 2nd (which would make sense as that's in D).

But also, by the time of, say, Brahms, I doubt there would be anything terribly remarkable about having an A minor movement in a symphony that started in F. Third relationships are quite common in the music of 19th century composers.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 19, 2018, 03:27:06 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 19, 2018, 03:18:04 PM
My dad had CDs of the Karajan 60s cycle and I definitely remember the notes mentioning movements being inserted into other symphonies. The Allegretto of the 7th found its way into more than one other symphony if I remember correctly. I have a feeling it was shoved into the 2nd (which would make sense as that's in D).

But also, by the time of, say, Brahms, I doubt there would be anything terribly remarkable about having an A minor movement in a symphony that started in F. Third relationships are quite common in the music of 19th century composers.

It was shoved into the 2nd in 19th-century Paris, as George Grove confirms in his book on the symphonies. Third relationships may have been common by Brahms's time, but were less so in Beethoven's. The suggestion above that it might have been transposed is unlikely too, as there are problems with register in the first statement of the theme alone.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2018, 03:28:42 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 19, 2018, 03:27:06 PM
Third relationships may have been common by Brahms's time, but were less so in Beethoven's.

Yes, but the relevant point in time is when people were mucking about with Beethoven's symphonies, not when he was writing them.

In any case, Beethoven himself was doing it in his later works, and Schubert did it plenty, so one doesn't have to go at all far into the future before people wouldn't be going "my God, you can't possibly put an A minor movement next to an F major one so we must transpose it".
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on October 19, 2018, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: Madiel on October 19, 2018, 03:28:42 PM
Yes, but the relevant point in time is when people were mucking about with Beethoven's symphonies, not when he was writing them.

In any case, Beethoven himself was doing it in his later works, and Schubert did it plenty, so one doesn't have to go at all far into the future before people wouldn't be going "my God, you can't possibly put an A minor movement next to an F major one so we must transpose it".

Of course. Chopin 2nd Ballade.

But more standard key relationships were the norm in this period. And yes, there were exceptions: LvB piano concerto 3, where the outer movements are in C minor and the slow movement in E major. Haydn E-flat major piano sonata, where the slow movement is in E major. And actually the LvB 7th does put a movement in A minor next to one in F (the scherzo). The sequence of tonalities in the 8th, however, is quite conventional: F-Bb-F-F.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 02, 2018, 01:16:47 PM
Slowest and Fastest Adagio of the 9th Symphony

What are the candidates? Bernstein/Vienna/DG takes a staggering 17:52; Pletnev/RNO/DG only 11:43 (faster than, say, P.Jaervi). Does anyone know of any other extremes beyond that?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 02, 2018, 01:39:34 PM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 02, 2018, 01:16:47 PM
Slowest and Fastest Adagio of the 9th Symphony

What are the candidates? Bernstein/Vienna/DG takes a staggering 17:52; Pletnev/RNO/DG only 11:43 (faster than, say, P.Jaervi). Does anyone know of any other extremes beyond that?

Benjamin Zander, 11:08

https://www.amazon.com/Benjamin-Zander-Conducts-Beethoven-Symphony/dp/B07FKCR9KF/ref=tmm_acd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1541194703&sr=1-24
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 03, 2018, 02:00:22 AM
Furtwängler Bayreuth 1951 19:32,
Furtwängler Berlin March 1942 20:04 (according to track list, actual playing times are probably a few seconds shorter)

Norrington/Virgin 11:08
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on November 03, 2018, 08:09:34 AM
Maximianno Cobra 21.06
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on November 03, 2018, 10:34:18 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71NIIYtMoRL._SL1077_.jpg)


The Adagio actually has a comparatively reasonable timing in the Cobra recording.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on November 03, 2018, 07:31:11 PM
Good grief. Did the performance include a dinner break?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aukhawk on November 04, 2018, 01:13:05 AM
Looks like some of the chorus are nodding off.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2018, 04:19:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 03, 2018, 10:34:18 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71NIIYtMoRL._SL1077_.jpg)


The Adagio actually has a comparatively reasonable timing in the Cobra recording.
110' ... what could possibly justify this.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on November 04, 2018, 04:41:43 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2018, 04:19:54 AM
110' ... what could possibly justify this.


Nothing.  The entire cycle is like this.  His recording of Mozart's 25th comes in at over 50', and his recording of the K310 and K331 sonatas requires two discs.  Cobra is, to use the clinical term, a crackpot.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on November 04, 2018, 05:45:55 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 04, 2018, 04:19:54 AM
110' ... what could possibly justify this.

Willem Talsma's theory of the variable metronome in  Rebirth of the Classical Composers. I've never read it, by the way, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a connection.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Biffo on November 04, 2018, 05:51:57 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 04, 2018, 04:41:43 AM

Nothing.  The entire cycle is like this.  His recording of Mozart's 25th comes in at over 50', and his recording of the K310 and K331 sonatas requires two discs.  Cobra is, to use the clinical term, a crackpot.

......... or an attention seeker or both
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on November 04, 2018, 06:07:33 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 04, 2018, 04:41:43 AM

Nothing.  The entire cycle is like this.  His recording of Mozart's 25th comes in at over 50', and his recording of the K310 and K331 sonatas requires two discs.  Cobra is, to use the clinical term, a crackpot.
Also most of the "recordings" are MIDI files produced with a commercially available sound library. (Not the Beethoven 9th, but it's obvious if you listen to the sound samples of any of the others.) Basically he just entered all the notes into a sequencer (or, more likely, hired someone else to do it) and then set the tempo to "slow". In terms of grifter quality, he's definitely no Concert Artists.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on November 04, 2018, 06:15:40 AM
Quote from: amw on November 04, 2018, 06:07:33 AM
Also most of the "recordings" are MIDI files produced with a commercially available sound library. (Not the Beethoven 9th, but it's obvious if you listen to the sound samples of any of the others.) Basically he just entered all the notes into a sequencer (or, more likely, hired someone else to do it) and then set the tempo to "slow". In terms of grifter quality, he's definitely no Concert Artists.


Ah, he's another Claudio Colombo.  Good to know.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 06, 2018, 06:04:11 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 03, 2018, 08:09:34 AM
Maximianno Cobra 21.06

I wouldn't consider that Beethoven. :-)

The only thing that's astounding about that crackpot fake cycle is that he somehow got Erika Miklósa to sing in the performance of the 9th. Well, I suppose Daddy's money will buy anything.

Norrington, huh!? I think I even listened to that. Or maybe just the finale. Should have looked at the notes. Thanks for the reminder. And Furtwangler that long... His Lucerne recording is also pretty long with 19:41 for the Adagio.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 12, 2018, 02:45:21 PM
References Revisited: Bernstein's Vienna Beethoven Cycle
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dr1gxuHX0AEFg1h.jpg)

On @ClassicsToday: Come 4 the liner notes (@Jeddistler), stay 4 the "asymmetrical sweater exposing one shoulder w/the sleeves hanging down all the way to the leg-warmers": @LennyBernstein's @Vienna_Phil #Beethoven cycle on @DGclassics lavishly re-issued!

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/references-revisited-bernsteins-vienna-beethoven-cycle/ ...
(https://www.classicstoday.com/review/references-revisited-bernsteins-vienna-beethoven-cycle/)

[Insider Content]
Title: Re: Slow and fast 9th symphony adagios
Post by: Ras on November 13, 2018, 09:40:30 AM
The slowest I can think of in my collection is Solti /Chicago on Decca.: 19:49

The fastest I think is Immerseel /Anima Eterna : 12:32
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827): DECEMBER 16TH!!!
Post by: Cato on December 16, 2018, 02:19:37 PM
What have done for BEETHOVEN'S BIRTHDAY?!

(Or what will you do tomorrow for his baptismal day?   ;)  )


(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/8d/20/a3/8d20a3c09bfc053eca064b6c3aca546d--meaning-of-life-music-school.jpg)


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 03, 2019, 06:51:28 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0vK9SfXgAA0ciw.jpg)

The #Beethoven String Quartet Cycle Survey (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html) has been updated (+ commentary) with @DGclassics' pure-audio Blu-ray/CD re-issue of the Amadeus Quartet's cycle:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-string-quartet.html ...

#Discography
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 03, 2019, 07:45:55 AM
I think it is something of a stretch to call the "zeroth" Budapest recordings a cycle but you might want to point out that some (I think in some cases there might be even older acoustic? recordings) of the pre-war recordings were at some stage available on Biddulph.

ASIN: B000EBFMDU op.59/2 and op.130 (w/o 133)
ASIN: B019GRZS86 opp. 18,2,3; 74

As you rightly point out, there is apparently no complete op.18/5 with the ensemble from that time.
I am missing op.59/1 and tbh I don't know if there is a Budapest studio recording before the 1st real cycle of 1951/52, but I think there is. I also suspect that there could be a pre-war op.133, but again, I simply don't know.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 03, 2019, 09:03:34 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 03, 2019, 07:45:55 AM
I think it is something of a stretch to call the "zeroth" Budapest recordings a cycle but you might want to point out that some (I think in some cases there might be even older acoustic? recordings) of the pre-war recordings were at some stage available on Biddulph.

The recordings exist -- just the re-issues are so incomplete. It's only a tuck, not a stretch.  ;D Thanks for the links & info!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on March 03, 2019, 09:37:55 AM
I mean the recordings were done within almost 20 years, with rather different lineups and also for different labels. And of course it is getting more complicated because of incomplete CD issues again on different labels.
By all means, they are significant enough to have them in the survey. As I did not know that there was so much with the Lener Q I thought these Budapest recordings were the first thing close to a cycle.

As for the early Intercord Melos quartet. This was available in the late 1980s on cheap single discs from Intercord and might have appeared in similar guises. I used to have one disc (59/2+3) but this is not very good, neither in sound nor in performance. Not really worth going out of ones way to seek out.

Whereas I find the DG Melos very good and rather underrrated, probably due to poor availability after the original issue (which was my first complete recording bought in 1990, so I am of course a little biased). It might have been somewhat superseded by similarly bold, fast and even more technically accomplished recordings in the 30 years since it came out but it would deserve a box issue. It also has the op.14/1 arrangement and is one of the relatively small number of recordings that take a certain repeat in op.59/2.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 25, 2019, 08:47:32 AM
Mightily Superfluous Excellence: Saraste and Beethoven Cycle No. 176
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2gd6IwX4Ac5Lty.jpg)

Raise your hand if you really, truly need another, a new set of the nine Beethoven symphonies—the 176th* such cycle? (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/mightily-superfluous-excellence-saraste-and-beethoven-cycle-no-176/)

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/mightily-superfluous-excellence-saraste-and-beethoven-cycle-no-176/ (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/mightily-superfluous-excellence-saraste-and-beethoven-cycle-no-176/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 29, 2019, 06:15:26 AM

The Reasonably Splendid And The Ho-Hum in LSO-Beethoven
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5UcM5cXoAAM34m.jpg)

Latest on ClassicsToday: Big Names in LSO Beethoven (...but what does it all amount to?)

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-reasonably-splendid-and-the-ho-hum-in-lso-beethoven/ ...
(https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-reasonably-splendid-and-the-ho-hum-in-lso-beethoven/)
https://amzn.to/2XVHNWW (https://amzn.to/2XVHNWW)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on May 04, 2019, 06:12:05 AM
A rave review for Steven Osborne's performance of the Op, 109, 110, and 111:

Quote

...The 1820 E Major Sonata may be the most elusive gem of the three, given its opening, eight-measure vivace theme whose 16th note figures Osborne performs with liquid grace. Beethoven has assigned two competing time signatures,  and the secondary tune depends upon a diminished seventh, so its surface simplicity, adagio, constantly challenges our security in what feels like an improvisation. Osborne then seizes the E minor Prestissimo by the throat, imparting to its interior tumult – a scherzo sans trio – the Baroque character of its models, Handel and Bach....

...The 1821 A-flat Sonata has some debts to a Bach chorale, but its dense texture, combined with an uncanny, inner serenity, establish its unique place in Beethoven's oeuvre; even more so, since it may be the only piece he completed in 1821, since the Missa Solemnis occupied his thoughts. Lyrical beauty, gently paced, dominates the order of the first movement, and Osborne imparts a plastic sense of arioso pulse that turn his Steinway into something other than a percussion instrument...


...That leaves us the monumental Op. 111 in C minor of 1822... Even with its manic impetus, the music relents briefly for a bucolic moment in A-flat Major. But the overpowering character of the grumbling, hurtling motif alternately plods and rushes onward, the voicing of the hands obviously a model for Schumann's and Thalberg's three-hand effects. Despite the colossal impetus and violence of the music, it subsides in Osborne's sunny major mode....Osborne bears the many affects of this Herculean journey with a clarity and drive that should repay his adherents with many returns to his traversal of the most audacious products of the keyboard imagination.

See:

https://www.audaud.com/beethoven-piano-sonatas-opp-109-110-111-steven-osborne-piano-hyperion/ (https://www.audaud.com/beethoven-piano-sonatas-opp-109-110-111-steven-osborne-piano-hyperion/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 03:13:16 AM
I'm resisting the temptation to buy this as I have real doubts about what he does in Beethoven sonatas, I hope if anyone does buy it they'll say a bit about their reaction because I want it to be interesting, and I know it could be.

The doubts come partly from the sound, the blend of the voices, which seems to light and too high sometimes to me. And the interpretations, well they're not mainstream but do they have any insights in there?  I suspect they possibly do, I don't know. Too much agony! I'm going to listen to some Sainte Colombe instead.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2019, 06:07:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 03:13:16 AM
I'm resisting the temptation to buy this as I have real doubts about what he does in Beethoven sonatas, I hope if anyone does buy it they'll say a bit about their reaction because I want it to be interesting, and I know it could be.

The doubts come partly from the sound, the blend of the voices, which seems to light and too high sometimes to me. And the interpretations, well they're not mainstream but do they have any insights in there?  I suspect they possibly do, I don't know. Too much agony! I'm going to listen to some Sainte Colombe instead.

Here is the website with c. one-minute extracts: perhaps they will help...or only increase the anxiety?  ;)

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68219 (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68219)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on May 05, 2019, 07:58:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 03:13:16 AM
I'm resisting the temptation to buy this as I have real doubts about what he does in Beethoven sonatas, I hope if anyone does buy it they'll say a bit about their reaction because I want it to be interesting, and I know it could be.
Oh, you know Todd won't resist! And I won't either next time Hyperion goes on sale...whenever that may be.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on May 05, 2019, 08:07:49 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 05, 2019, 07:58:08 AM
Oh, you know Todd won't resist! And I won't either next time Hyperion goes on sale...whenever that may be.


Was in my cart at Amazon, but it's one of those not available discs on release date.  I'll have to buy from another source if I want it soon.  (If.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: schnittkease on May 05, 2019, 08:32:10 AM
There's even more agony when you don't earn in pounds! That being said, Osborne's Hammerklavier was superb.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 09:07:14 AM
Quote from: schnittkease on May 05, 2019, 08:32:10 AM
There's even more agony when you don't earn in pounds! That being said, Osborne's Hammerklavier was superb.

Yes I know in the slow movement you get a feeling for how interesting the new recording could be. It's just that I want it to be a bit more bass up than he ever would be, but that's stupid of me probably.

You know the worst thing, I had the chance to hear him play op 109-111 a couple of weeks ago and was too lazy to go.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 10:52:34 AM
(https://groups.google.com/group/symphonyshare/attach/3a09f8424b360/51Z112X747L.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&authuser=1)

I've started to listen to the last three sonatas on Takahiro Sonoda's Denon set -- I  like the diamantine  treble sound and the powerful slightly cthonic  left hand -- the sound makes me think a bit of Koroliov.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 05, 2019, 01:58:56 PM
I listened to his Op. 106 and actually kind of enjoyed it, which is rare w recordings of this tempo, so maybe that's an endorsement of some kind.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 08:49:09 PM
Quote from: amw on May 05, 2019, 01:58:56 PM
I listened to his Op. 106 and actually kind of enjoyed it, which is rare w recordings of this tempo, so maybe that's an endorsement of some kind.

Or maybe you're changing.

You talking about Osborne or Sonoda?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 05, 2019, 08:55:45 PM
Sonoda.

I still like Osborne's Hammerklavier better overall mind.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2019, 09:14:36 PM
Quote from: amw on May 05, 2019, 08:55:45 PM
Sonoda.

I still like Osborne's Hammerklavier better overall mind.

Get the new Osborne recording today please and tell me what you think.

To me honest I got a bit irritated by Sonoda's op 109 last night, I probably shouldn't mention that because it's just my mood or something. 

What Sonoda can do and what I can't imagine Osborne doing, is really smash his hand down on the bass and produce a powerful low beautiful sound, and (as a result of hearing Anderszewski on Friday) I now think that's an essential thing in late Beethoven.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 05, 2019, 10:03:36 PM
I probably will get it but not today (don't get paid until wednesday, also don't have good internet where I'm at and don't want to spend time fighting with the hyperion download manager).

Osborne is not the type of pianist who will smash the bass under any circumstances and that's not really what I'm expecting from him, rather something more like a.....modern instruments Paul Komen? Perhaps also a bit of Badura-Skoda or Schiff—analytical and somewhat inward.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 12, 2019, 01:37:24 AM
Predictably, I got it.

The bass is very nice and loud, probably more due to the recording than Osborne exercising his left hand significantly.

Tempi are fast, playing has a wide dynamic range but rarely slips into the extremes. Extreme softness in particular is (as with many other pianists) a way to mark out passages for transcendence and profundity, and that's primarily what Osborne seems to aim for, but not without a sense of wit or humour. The playing is completely devoid of ugliness but also rarely aims for beauty.

On a first listen I wouldn't actually call it particularly analytical or inward playing—if anything it's very "performed" but what is being performed is a sort of undemonstrativeness that, in the best performances, brings about a sentiment of transcendence without calling attention to any particular features of the performance. The only comparison I can think of offhand is Schnabel, and also like Schnabel Osborne takes a lot of care over the silences between notes, whereas unlike Schnabel the undemonstrativeness does not seem like a natural feature of the pianist's style but like something rehearsed to avoid any hints of flashiness or sensuality that his instincts might otherwise lead him to indulge in.

I do like it a lot to be honest.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2019, 03:28:47 AM
Quote from: amw on May 12, 2019, 01:37:24 AM
Predictably, I got it.

The bass is very nice and loud, probably more due to the recording than Osborne exercising his left hand significantly.

Tempi are fast, playing has a wide dynamic range but rarely slips into the extremes. Extreme softness in particular is (as with many other pianists) a way to mark out passages for transcendence and profundity, and that's primarily what Osborne seems to aim for, but not without a sense of wit or humour. The playing is completely devoid of ugliness but also rarely aims for beauty.

On a first listen I wouldn't actually call it particularly analytical or inward playing—if anything it's very "performed" but what is being performed is a sort of undemonstrativeness that, in the best performances, brings about a sentiment of transcendence without calling attention to any particular features of the performance. The only comparison I can think of offhand is Schnabel, and also like Schnabel Osborne takes a lot of care over the silences between notes, whereas unlike Schnabel the undemonstrativeness does not seem like a natural feature of the pianist's style but like something rehearsed to avoid any hints of flashiness or sensuality that his instincts might otherwise lead him to indulge in.

I do like it a lot to be honest.

Cheers, it's just inevitable that I'll succumb to the intense urge to hear this NOW!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2019, 07:48:05 PM
Been listening to Herman Scherchen's 1958 "Eroica"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ6xdKVKncE

Wow, 1958 with the exposition repeat taken in the 1st movement AND the performance is around 43 minutes. The lean sound, blistering tempo, minimal vibrato is very similar to present day HIP performance.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: André on May 26, 2019, 06:08:17 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 25, 2019, 07:48:05 PM
Been listening to Herman Scherchen's 1958 "Eroica"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ6xdKVKncE

Wow, 1958 with the exposition repeat taken in the 1st movement AND the performance is around 43 minutes. The lean sound, blistering tempo, minimal vibrato is very similar to present day HIP performance.

Yes. One of the most stimulating Eroicas I know.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 26, 2019, 06:55:37 AM
Quote from: André on May 26, 2019, 06:08:17 AM
Yes. One of the most stimulating Eroicas I know.
Fascinating, I didn't know there is an earlier one from 1951:

[asin]B002C8BQZQ[/asin]

that clocks in around 50 minutes, much more conventional, not as well recorded nor well played unfortunately. Usually when conductors get older they slow down but not Herman here.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 26, 2019, 08:56:43 AM
The Eroica is the best of Scherchen's Beethoven (still the fastest first movement I am aware of) but the 8th with Scherchen (Westminster) from the mid-50s is also worth seeking out. Some of the others must also have been quite spectacular in their day (fast, furious and quite transparent despite mostly mono) but I think they have been mostly superseded by better played interpretations in better sound, such as Gardiner, Paavo Järvi etc.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 26, 2019, 01:42:27 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 26, 2019, 08:56:43 AM
The Eroica is the best of Scherchen's Beethoven (still the fastest first movement I am aware of) but the 8th with Scherchen (Westminster) from the mid-50s is also worth seeking out. Some of the others must also have been quite spectacular in their day (fast, furious and quite transparent despite mostly mono) but I think they have been mostly superseded by better played interpretations in better sound, such as Gardiner, Paavo Järvi etc.
Norrington (LCP or Stuttgart) is close, so is Chailly/Leipzig. Chailly is actually a tad faster overall but none matches Scherchen's sub 15 min first movement with the repeat taken.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: staxomega on May 27, 2019, 07:33:46 AM
I've been relistening to Igor Levit's late Beethoven now that he'll be recording the full cycle. I'm slowing starting to warm to it, though his Op. 110 still doesn't do it for me. He doesn't build to the first climax in the opening movement in a satisfactory enough way. Still this is overall some very good late LvB. I've always enjoyed his Diabellis.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on June 06, 2019, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 26, 2019, 08:56:43 AM
The Eroica is the best of Scherchen's Beethoven (still the fastest first movement I am aware of)
Lan Shui's mixed modern and period instruments recording with the Copenhagen Philharmonic is a few seconds faster (and I also happen to like it a lot although it's probably not better than the Scherchen—natural horns always sound great in Beethoven lol)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 06, 2019, 04:20:23 AM
I had not been aware of Shui's. I was always somewhat surprised that even the swiftest of HIP and similar like Gielen, Norrington, Järvi, Zinman etc. didn't break 15 min. But in any case the Scherchen is more dramatic and weighty than these four, partly maybe because his orchestra is tasked somewhat beyond its abilities. Scherchen is very fast but never gives the impression of "Mendelssohnian fleetness", while IMO the others with all due respect to them and to the fairy grace of Mendelssohnian scherzi don't always escape this impression. (And from the snippets Shui also seems closer to Järvi than to Scherchen in this respect.) Gielen (SWF) is also weighty as far as the mere sound does go but stiffer and less dramatic than Scherchen, I think. And as far as I recall Gielen's older Cincinnati recording is even more "dry".
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on June 06, 2019, 04:27:59 AM
I do somewhat blame the Del Mar/Bärenreiter editions for the "Mendelssohnian" qualities of a lot of newer recordings because it significantly tones down Beethoven's more extreme dynamics, possibly for good scholarly reasons but nonetheless mitigating one of the most characteristic features of the music. Even the slower HIP recordings (Herreweghe, Hogwood, Brüggen) are comparatively undramatic compared to the older Scherchen (or Cluytens, Leibowitz etc) recordings. Emmanuel Krivine is an exception but he conducts Beethoven much more like it's Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, which appeals to me immensely but is not in any way "HIP" except for the use of period instruments.....
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2019, 04:36:28 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on June 06, 2019, 04:20:23 AM
I had not been aware of Shui's. I was always somewhat surprised that even the swiftest of HIP and similar like Gielen, Norrington, Järvi, Zinman etc. didn't break 15 min. But in any case the Scherchen is more dramatic and weighty than these four, partly maybe because his orchestra is tasked somewhat beyond its abilities. Scherchen is very fast but never gives the impression of "Mendelssohnian fleetness", while IMO the others with all due respect to them and to the fairy grace of Mendelssohnian scherzi don't always escape this impression. (And from the snippets Shui also seems closer to Järvi than to Scherchen in this respect.) Gielen (SWF) is also weighty as far as the mere sound does go but stiffer and less dramatic than Scherchen, I think. And as far as I recall Gielen's older Cincinnati recording is even more "dry".
Yes you nailed it. The orchestra sounds a bit overworked and is fighting to keep up, IMHO exactly the same way Beethoven would want it to sound. I also like the minimal use of string vibrato and not walls of string sound like you hear from the likes HVK.

Quote from: amw on June 06, 2019, 03:38:14 AM
Lan Shui's mixed modern and period instruments recording with the Copenhagen Philharmonic is a few seconds faster (and I also happen to like it a lot although it's probably not better than the Scherchen—natural horns always sound great in Beethoven lol)
I always like the Viennese playing Beethoven (and Brahms for that matter) as the horns are as authentic as they come.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 06, 2019, 10:54:43 AM
I admittedly also like some tempo flexibility in this huge first movement and also in the marcia funebre. E.g. the famous 2 vs 3 beats and brutal dissonances are more efficient if not quite as fast.
Leibowitz is w/o repeat, better played and recorded than Scherchen but probably also still worthwhile although after many comparably fast recordings his Eroica and the whole cycle is not as spectacular and exciting as it was even in the late 1980s when I first encountered some of them as a teenager.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 06, 2019, 11:01:30 AM
If any evidence is needed that old Beethoven recordings were not all hyper-Romanticized, Furtwangler-esq affairs there is the Schurickt/Paris Conservatory recording of the 8th symphony (EMI). Blistering!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2019, 12:35:07 PM
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 06, 2019, 11:01:30 AM
If any evidence is needed that old Beethoven recordings were not all hyper-Romanticized, Furtwangler-esq affairs there is the Schurickt/Paris Conservatory recording of the 8th symphony (EMI). Blistering!
Never liked any of Furt's Beethoven, or HVK's for exactly the reason above.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on June 06, 2019, 12:41:28 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 06, 2019, 12:35:07 PM
Never liked any of Furt's Beethoven, or HVK's for exactly the reason above.

Never thought I'd see Furtwangler and Karajan lumped together!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 07, 2019, 08:31:42 AM
No real insight here, but based on this discussion I listened to the Scherchen '58 and loved it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aukhawk on June 08, 2019, 12:11:29 AM
Likewise I listened to Lan Shui's Eroica and found it a bit meh.  But then I grew up listening to Klemperer.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on June 08, 2019, 12:42:11 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 07, 2019, 08:31:42 AM
No real insight here, but based on this discussion I listened to the Scherchen '58 and loved it.
I still think it's probably the best performance of the symphony around.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 12:55:55 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 08, 2019, 12:11:29 AM
Likewise I listened to Lan Shui's Eroica and found it a bit meh.  But then I grew up listening to Klemperer.

What do you think of the Scherchen 58 Eroica I wonder
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 01:07:00 AM
Can someone just confirm the timings of the 1958 recording you are all talking about? The one I like I've tagged 1959, which could well be my fault. It runs

Movement 1 14,39
Movement 2 13,25
Movement 3 5,25
Movement 4 10,21

I have another one on a CD called « The Ultraphon Recordings » which I don't like at all!

And then I have a third which also seems OK, with no details in the tags at all other than the conductor,  with timings

Movement 1 14,47
Movement 2 15,42
Movement 3 5,57
Movement 4 12,36

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on June 08, 2019, 01:30:32 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 01:07:00 AM
Can someone just confirm the timings of the 1958 recording you are all talking about? The one I like I've tagged 1959, which could well be my fault. It runs

Movement 1 14,39
Movement 2 13,25
Movement 3 5,25
Movement 4 10,21
Yes this is the 1958 one.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 08, 2019, 01:32:26 AM
Correct, this is the 1958 Westminster. I think the ultraphon is even earlier than the early/mid-fifties Westminster. I am not completely sure but I think Scherchen did a complete mono cycle 1951-54 (as shown above in the Tahra reissue), then the 3rd and 6th in stereo in 1958 and a live cycle in the 1960s in Lugano but there are also a few single older recordings from the late 40s or early 50s. The ultraphon is probably one of this last group.

EDIT: The second one mentioned by Mandryka is the ca 1951 Westminster mono (I have it in an Archipel issue, Tahra would probably preferable). Note that the first movement is slightly slower without repeat than WITH repeat in the stereo, i.e. this is actually much slower, would be closer to 18 min if the repeat was taken (i.e. a middle of the road tempo while not as slow as late Klemp or Giulini).

I am not really convinced by any "slow" (mainly concerning the first movement) Eroica. But I like a few with a "moderate" (ca. 16-17 min w/ repeat) and flexible tempo if sufficiently dramatic. Chief among them probably Bernstein/NY, also Erich Kleiber (both in not ideal sound from around 1950), maybe Munch and Harnoncourt (fast than most but not quite as fleet as Scherchen or the faster HIP influenced ones)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 01:55:24 AM
Thanks, I'd better change the tag!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aukhawk on June 09, 2019, 07:15:03 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on June 08, 2019, 12:11:29 AM
Likewise I listened to Lan Shui's Eroica and found it a bit meh.  But then I grew up listening to Klemperer.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2019, 12:55:55 AM
What do you think of the Scherchen 58 Eroica I wonder

[pause while I listen to the 1st two movements]
Yes pretty good - if you like 'edgey'.  I hope there's a better transfer out there than the one I found though (on Spotify, labelled 'LP Pure') which makes the recording sound a good 10 years older than it actually is.
I'm not really much of a one for Beethoven symphonies - I only ever listen to three of them (3, 6, 7) and that very rarely - given that I can't help but be aware that Klemperer-style interpretations are deeply out of fashion, my go-to for these three is now Vanska/Minnesota, which do sound very fresh to me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 23, 2019, 12:30:06 AM

Karajan's 1970s Beethoven In Blu-ray Audio: A Controversial Set Revisited
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_hXRMOWwAAzyZq.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/karajans-1970s-beethoven-in-blu-ray-audio-a-controversial-set-revisited/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on July 29, 2019, 03:43:25 AM
 A review from the weekend Wall Street Journal (July 27/28, 2019) by Lloyd Schwartz, and English professor at the University of Massachusetts, and a music critic for a (semi-)classical radio network in America called "National Public Radio," of a book on Beethoven ( The Relentless Revolutionary ) by a certain John Clubbe:

Quote

Another interpretive life of Beethoven has appeared. If the author, the American cultural historian John Clubbe, were a good friend and had asked for my advice about his manuscript, what would I have told him? Maybe something like this:

Dear John,

Thanks for inviting me to read your book, which I did with interest. Beethoven as revolutionary is a great subject. But I'm sorry to report that I was disappointed. A biographical study of a figure as familiar as Beethoven must demonstrate a strong reason for being published, and while there are a number of fresh perspectives here, I'm not completely convinced by your argument that Beethoven's music is more politically motivated than we had previously assumed, or that your ideas about Beethoven's republican sympathies are especially fresh.

For one thing, your focus is a little blurry. Sixty-six pages into "The Relentless Revolutionary," you seem to poke a big hole in your own title, admitting that Beethoven "never became a doctrinaire revolutionary," that he was "more an idealistic rebel, or rather, often a rebel, sometimes a revolutionary, more usually somewhere in between." This summation, though it waffles a bit, has considerably more shading than your enthusiastically alliterative title. Maybe your title isn't quite right.

It's of course hard to disagree with your argument that Beethoven's revolutionary sympathies lie behind such masterpieces as the "Eroica" Symphony and the opera "Fidelio," works that explicitly depict heroic action and what it takes to be a hero. They certainly sound "heroic." But it's confusing when you also call the limpid opening ripples of the "Moonlight" Sonata "revolutionary." Beethoven is clearly doing something impressively new, but is the fervor of his compositional inventiveness the same as his "revolutionary" political views? If it is, shouldn't you be dealing with that confluence in a more comprehensively focused way?

I particularly admire your deconstruction of Beethoven's shifting attitudes toward Napoleon, beginning with the composer famously rubbing out his dedication to Napoleon on his score of the "Eroica" upon learning that Napoleon had just crowned himself emperor. You lead us expertly through his continually changing attitudes, as when, only a few years later, he considered dedicating his Mass in C to Napoleon, but then didn't—because, as you show us, it would have been professional suicide to celebrate his country's conqueror. I'm less convinced by your persistent argument that Beethoven saw himself as a musical Napoleon.

Your opening chapters take up the "key influences" on Beethoven's early years in Bonn, Germany, and the origins of the French Revolution. Some of this is pretty well-trod territory. I was more interested in what led up to Beethoven's two early cantatas, "On the Death of Joseph II" and "On the Accession of Leopold II"—music composed to commemorate, first, the enlightened despot Joseph, who was too autocratic to succeed in bringing about the reforms that he (and Beethoven) desired, and his succession by the potentially more benevolent Leopold, who died only two years into his promising reign. 

Though neither of these two still-unfamiliar works was performed in Beethoven's lifetime, they marked important milestones in his development. You call the former work Beethoven's "first masterpiece," though listening to it, I rather share recent Beethoven biographer (and composer) Jan Swafford's more tempered estimation: "Beethoven's setting . . . pulls out all the stops, revealing that at age nineteen he had a number of stops to pull."

And I have to say that I also prefer Mr. Swafford's more engaging, conversational style, which avoids your sometimes-stiff academic vocabulary ("thus"), gushy exclamations ("alas"), dated diction ("yesteryear," "oft-"), and outmoded syntax ("be it noted," "compose he did"). Whom do you imagine will be your reader?

While we're speaking of style and diction, let's look closely at the end of a paragraph about the "Eroica":

'No doubt Beethoven did despair, but he was a fighter, and fight he would. Fate would not conquer him. The Eroica may strike those aware of Beethoven's subsequent career as his most difficult, most challenging work. Twice as long as a typical symphony by Mozart or Haydn, it runs to what contemporaries regarded as an inordinate length, in modern recordings from forty-five to fifty-five minutes. It is also the first of his named symphonies.'

These sentences are full of clichés, outmoded and melodramatic syntax, irrelevant and intrusive details, and all they build to is an anticlimax. How does a symphony having a name relate to its being a challenging work? And isn't it odd to call this Beethoven's first named symphony when there is a total of only two?

What follows sounds even sillier:

'During the spring of 1803 he began what was perhaps the crucial work of his career. He rented a cottage for the summer in Oberdöbling, a village closer to Vienna than Heiligenstadt but still well outside the then city limits . . .'

I know it's not what you intend, but it sounds as if you're saying that Beethoven's most "crucial" work was renting a cottage. Please rewrite this.

Now that you've retired from teaching, and after writing and editing nearly a dozen books, I'm not sure you should include in your bio that you've "given pre-concert lectures for the Santa Fe Pro Musica and the Santa Fe Symphony." One reservation I have about the way you've organized this book—long chapters divided into many short sub-chapters—is that it often reads like a series of program notes. You really shouldn't be repeating so many sound bites from one chapter (or even one page) to the next: that Beethoven's short haircut indicated his sympathy with young French revolutionaries; that there's a difference between "van" (being "from" somewhere) and "von" (indicating nobility); that the original title for "Fidelio" was "Leonore." How many times do you need to remind us? Don't you trust your reader to remember these details? Or do you simply not expect—or want— anyone to read the whole book in sequence? As with your impulse to go off on tangents—about the history of elegies, or Bacchus, or 18th-century prisons, or Goya's black paintings—these relentless repetitions and reminders distract from a forward-moving, unified whole.

"The Relentless Revolutionary" seems to warm up whenever you plunge into the political and cultural issues that most convey your sense of discovery. My heart sank when you wrote that "to explore Beethoven as a revolutionary requires that we take up his fascination with Plutarch." Yet your discussion actually springs to life when you write about the figure in Plutarch most important to Beethoven: Lucius Junius Brutus, the founder of the Roman republic (four centuries before the better-known Brutus who assassinated Julius Caesar). That Brutus was so committed to the republic that he condemned his two anti-republican sons to death. How chilling (and I don't remember reading this anywhere else) that Beethoven kept a bust of his ancient hero on his writing desk.

On the whole, you seem more comfortable writing about history than music. There is a lack of exactness whenever you write about what you hear in Beethoven, as when you describe the "Eroica" as a "veritable torrent of sound at white-hot intensity," or when you conclude that the Finale of the Fifth Symphony "lasts a long time, and whenever we expect it to stop, it roars along." Too often where you should be most specific your prose is smeared by generalized effusions. If I didn't already know the music, I'd have a hard time imagining what it sounds like. What do you mean when you say, about the last quartets, that "the phrases have become detached and separated, yet linked by their emotional power they beckon to each other across the intervening spaces"? And are you sure you should end your big chapter on "Fidelio" with "This opera, like no other, can move us to tears"? (Do you really believe that this is the only opera that moves listeners to tears?)

Throughout your book I repeatedly asked myself what, exactly, you think music "means." That is, I kept rehashing the old debate about whether any given musical work is basically abstract or whether, as you seem to believe, it almost always conveys a very specific narrative. We know that Mahler wrote narrative outlines for several of his symphonies and then omitted them from his published scores. But how important is it to understand an explicit storyline in, say, the "Eroica"? I believe that any great piece of music embodies an emotional progression of some kind. And in many works, like Debussy's "La Mer" or even Beethoven's "Pastorale"—his other symphony with a "name"—the composer obviously had some very specific images in mind. We know the second movement of the "Eroica" is a funeral march, but isn't the emotional—and musical—progression more important than any particular story it might be telling? Isn't there something liberating about not knowing literally what each musical gesture is supposed to illustrate, especially since we can't know what was in Beethoven's head?

And so, while I enjoyed your numerous digressions—about the obscure but heroic author Johann Gottfried Seume, whose two books on walking through Europe Beethoven owned and whose gravesite he visited; about the doomed French revolutionary journalist Gracchus Babeuf; about Beethoven's friendship with Napoleon's sympathetic and music-loving Baron de Trémont—I'm sorry I feel so negative about the whole book. I hope you find these comments useful. I would strongly encourage you to put this all through the wringer at least once more before you try to publish it.

Your friend,

Lloyd

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Andy D. on July 29, 2019, 03:51:29 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 23, 2019, 12:30:06 AM

Karajan's 1970s Beethoven In Blu-ray Audio: A Controversial Set Revisited
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_hXRMOWwAAzyZq.jpg) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/karajans-1970s-beethoven-in-blu-ray-audio-a-controversial-set-revisited/)

Wow. I've grown to really appreciate that set more than ever lately, probably edging out the 60s (especially the 9th, though Janowski and co. did a great job on the latter imo).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 04:19:22 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 29, 2019, 03:43:25 AM
A review from the weekend Wall Street Journal (July 27/28, 2019) by Lloyd Schwartz, and English professor at the University of Massachusetts, and a music critic for a (semi-)classical radio network in America called "National Public Radio," of a book on Beethoven ( The Relentless Revolutionary ) by a certain John Clubbe:

Thanks for posting this. Schwartz is spot on: Beethoven was anything but a "relentless revolutionary". The label is misguiding both musically and politically --- all his life he actually vacillated between left and right in both fields; one could as well argue he was a cosnervative. Of course he was neither, or rather both simultaneously --- he was in a class of his own.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2019, 04:36:53 AM
Quote from: Cato on July 29, 2019, 03:43:25 AM
A review from the weekend Wall Street Journal (July 27/28, 2019) by Lloyd Schwartz, and English professor at the University of Massachusetts, and a music critic for a (semi-)classical radio network in America called "National Public Radio," of a book on Beethoven ( The Relentless Revolutionary ) by a certain John Clubbe:


Delicious! Reading this review has been perhaps the most crucial work of my day.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on July 29, 2019, 05:33:58 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2019, 04:36:53 AM
Delicious! Reading this review has been perhaps the most crucial work of my day.

It is most gratifying to know this!  0:) 

Quote from: Florestan on July 29, 2019, 04:19:22 AM
Thanks for posting this. Schwartz is spot on: Beethoven was anything but a "relentless revolutionary". The label is misguiding both musically and politically --- all his life he actually vacillated between left and right in both fields; one could as well argue he was a conservative. Of course he was neither, or rather both simultaneously --- he was in a class of his own.

Yes, and I thought of the famous Bruckner story that he expected his students to follow the rules of composition in his classroom, but later, if they were still following the rules in their works, he would show them the door!

Composers need to create their own "rules," so to speak, and those could change from work to work, and most probably should change!.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on August 03, 2019, 12:32:06 PM
(https://www.supraphon.com/public/photo/300x300f/7/d/1269.jpg?1520520349)

Vlach Quartet Beethoven, ears started to really prick up in op 18/3/ii; I knew the op 131 before, and it is a great favourite of mine, so I'm looking forward to hearing the op 18s in this set. It was a 2017 release, which I missed. Ecellent transfers so far.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2019, 01:27:42 AM
Beethoven Violin Concerto Cadenza Question

Dear interested Beethoven-heads... I've been trying to put together a list of the various cadenzas (and their sub-versions) that have been provided for the Violin Concerto. Mainly I'm interested in the main cadenza, actually. And specifically, I'm interested in finding recordings of these.

Here's a list of those where I could not find a recording, yet.

Victor Kissine Edition of Beethoven/Schneiderhan (Kremer plays this now, I think)

Joseph Joachim I & II: Szigeti, Szering, Huberman and Kogan play Joachum cadenzas. Do they all play the II version? Does anyone other than Ricci play version I?

Who, besides Padovani and Ricci, plays Leopold Auer in a pure form? (Heifetz of course plays his modification thereof in C1 and then switches to Joachim for C2 and C3.

There is, of course, the Ricci/Bellugi recording with 14-some cadenzas. But apart from him, is there anyone who has recorded any of these:

Ferdinand David, Jakob Dont, Isaak Dunayevsky, Carl Flesch, Joseph Hellmesberger Sr., Jenő Hubay, Christiaan Kriens, Bernhard Molique, Miron Polyakin (= Auer Variant??), Manuel Quiroga, Camille Saint-Saëns, Schradiek?, Ödön Singer, Sayaka Shoji, Louis Spohr (classical/LvB contemporary 1813?), Henryk Wieniawski , August Wilhelmj, Eugène Ysaÿe

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 05, 2019, 04:13:54 AM
I'm afraid I'll be of no use to this fascinating topic as I've only heard the Beethoven VC but once, months ago, it was the Heifetz recording with Munch & the Boston Symphony. One day I will take the deep dive into this work. For some reason, I find it daunting compared to others in his middle period.

Just to contribute to this thread a bit beyond my ignorance, I have been seriously enjoying this 2CD over the past week:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/617cogQa1eL._SY400_.jpg)

I'm slowly trying to get back into Beethoven after a few months of not listening to his music at all. These brilliant performances of the late piano sonatas are as good a place to start as any, I think. Late Beethoven has always mystified me but I think, obviously, there is something there. It's always interesting hearing a late work of his and trying to figure it out. My favorites of these performances, I think, are op.101 and op.109. I have yet to hear the Hammerklavier here.

Any fans? I know some might find Pollini too cold here, but I think it's just right. He plays Beethoven as if he were a Modernist composer, and it works. I would be skeptical of some of the earlier sonatas (or concerti) in his hands, though.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2019, 07:44:30 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 05, 2019, 04:13:54 AM
I'm afraid I'll be of no use to this fascinating topic as I've only heard the Beethoven VC but once, months ago, it was the Heifetz recording with Munch & the Boston Symphony. One day I will take the deep dive into this work. For some reason, I find it daunting compared to others in his middle period.

Just to contribute to this thread a bit beyond my ignorance, I have been seriously enjoying this 2CD over the past week:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/617cogQa1eL._SY400_.jpg)

I'm slowly trying to get back into Beethoven after a few months of not listening to his music at all. These brilliant performances of the late piano sonatas are as good a place to start as any, I think. Late Beethoven has always mystified me but I think, obviously, there is something there. It's always interesting hearing a late work of his and trying to figure it out. My favorites of these performances, I think, are op.101 and op.109. I have yet to hear the Hammerklavier here.

Any fans? I know some might find Pollini too cold here, but I think it's just right. He plays Beethoven as if he were a Modernist composer, and it works. I would be skeptical of some of the earlier sonatas (or concerti) in his hands, though.

This is one of the greatest recordings ever made. Of anything. Top 100 classical stuff, if one wanted to draw up such a silly list. And it hasn't aged a bit. It's also a good part of the foundation of Pollini's fame in general and as a Beethoven interpreter.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Biffo on October 05, 2019, 07:48:28 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2019, 07:44:30 AM
This is one of the greatest recordings ever made. Of anything. Top 100 classical stuff, if one wanted to draw up such a silly list. And it hasn't aged a bit. It's also a good part of the foundation of Pollini's fame in general and as a Beethoven interpreter.

Pollini is incomparable in Op 111
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 05, 2019, 07:51:00 AM
^Thank you for confirming my impression! So this was recorded in the late '70s, no? A decade and a half since winning the Chopin competition as a young virtuoso, but with much of his illustrious recording career still ahead of him. I find Pollini to be a fascinating artist and I will be exploring his recordings further.

I listened to the op.111 yesterday and it was absolutely brilliant. Not sure why I didn't include it when I listed my (first-impression) favorites from the set. It completely blew me away.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2019, 07:55:03 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 05, 2019, 07:51:00 AM
^Thank you for confirming my impression! So this was recorded in the late '70s, no? A decade and a half since winning the Chopin competition as a young virtuoso, but with much of his illustrious recording career still ahead of him. I find Pollini to be a fascinating artist and I will be exploring his recordings further.

I listened to the op.111 yesterday and it was absolutely brilliant. Not sure why I didn't include it when I listed my (first-impression) favorites from the set. It completely blew me away.

Incidentally, it was one of my very first (well, No.13) CD reviews and among the first discs that I gave one of those mini-reviews at Tower Records. https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/10/dip-your-ears-no-13.html (https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/10/dip-your-ears-no-13.html)
And Pollini was the first "proper" concert/recital that I ever got a press ticket for. I still remember walking down the aisle of the Kennedy Center Concert Hall to my 12th row / Piano Left seats, thinking to myself: "I'll never stop pretending to be a music critic!"
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on November 30, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
For some reason I was recalling how it came to pass that I listened to Beethoven's Piano Sonata 32 Opus 111.  Solo piano music had not enthused me much, along with most or even all chamber music in my early years.

The subtle depth with which a pianist can delicately touch e.g. the single key A1 and linger gently over its pulsating whisper, before advancing to higher or lower territory, had eluded me.  Until I read a book called...

...Doctor Faustus by Thomas Mann.

The description of the work (done by a character who is an organist) was so marvelous, so compelling, that I felt that I needed to overcome my antipathy toward solo works and listen to this last sonata by Beethoven as soon as possible.  At the library I chanced upon the enchanting performance on London/Decca by Wilhelm Backhaus.  Soon I was listening to all of the Beethoven sonatas as performed by Backhaus and Kempff and others whom I have forgotten (Claudio Arrau was undoubtedly one of the group).

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 30, 2019, 04:22:22 PM
Quote from: Cato on November 30, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
For some reason I was recalling how it came to pass that I listened to Beethoven's Piano Sonata 32 Opus 111.  Solo piano music had not enthused me much, along with most or even all chamber music in my early years.

The subtle depth with which a pianist can delicately touch e.g. the single key A1 and linger gently over its pulsating whisper, before advancing to higher or lower territory, had eluded me.  Until I read a book called...

...Doctor Faustus by Thomas Mann.

The description of the work (done by a character who is an organist) was so marvelous, so compelling, that I felt that I needed to overcome my antipathy toward solo works and listen to this last sonata by Beethoven as soon as possible.  At the library I chanced upon the enchanting performance on London/Decca by Wilhelm Backhaus.  Soon I was listening to all of the Beethoven sonatas as performed by Backhaus and Kempff and others whom I have forgotten (Claudio Arrau was undoubtedly one of the group).

I love chapter VIII. In fact, I've once, to impress a lady, taught myself to recite the chapter along the Pollini's recording so that all the cues in the book about the music would line up with those in the recording.  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on December 01, 2019, 02:07:45 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 30, 2019, 04:22:22 PM
I love chapter VIII. In fact, I've once, to impress a lady, taught myself to recite the chapter along the Pollini's recording so that all the cues in the book about the music would line up with those in the recording.  ;D

Dude!  You must tell us: was she impressed?   8)


Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 30, 2019, 04:22:22 PM
I love chapter VIII. In fact, I've once, to impress a lady, taught myself to recite the chapter along the Pollini's recording so that all the cues in the book about the music would line up with those in the recording.  ;D

Quite an accomplishment: I never tried reading the section with the sonata playing.  I will see how that works out!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on December 01, 2019, 03:40:52 AM
I'm reading Dr. Faustus now and that part with Kretzschmar and his Beethoven lectures really blew me away. Of course, I had to go back and listen to the late sonatas (and yes, it was Pollini).

The last five sonatas are definitely some of the greatest music ever written for the piano.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 01, 2019, 04:59:26 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 01, 2019, 02:07:45 AM
Dude!  You must tell us: was she impressed?   8)

A dude never tells.  ;D :P

Quote
Quite an accomplishment: I never tried reading the section with the sonata playing.  I will see how that works out!

I should have the notes with the time-stamps still around.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 01, 2019, 05:01:19 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on December 01, 2019, 03:40:52 AM
I'm reading Dr. Faustus now and that part with Kretzschmar and his Beethoven lectures really blew me away. Of course, I had to go back and listen to the late sonatas (and yes, it was Pollini).

The last five sonatas are definitely some of the greatest music ever written for the piano.

I later wanted to do it as a performance with an acquaintance... but it turned out that my voice does NOT carry over a grand piano being played behind me.

Incidentally, Thomas Mann published the 8th chapter as a standalone essay in English in Harper's Magazine (or some other such mag.), so there's precedent for reading just that. It's riproaringly funny, too... which was what surprised the above-mentioned lady in question the most, because she hadn't thought of Mann that way.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: André on December 01, 2019, 05:07:58 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 01, 2019, 05:01:19 AM
I later wanted to do it as a performance with an acquaintance... but it turned out that my voice does NOT carry over a grand piano being played behind me.

Incidentally, Thomas Mann published the 8th chapter as a standalone essay in English in Harper's Magazine (or some other such mag.), so there's precedent for reading just that. It's riproaringly funny, too... which was what surprised the above-mentioned lady in question the most, because she hadn't thought of Mann that way.

There is plenty of humour in The Buddenbrooks, The Magic Mountain and Joseph and his Brothers, too (particularly in the latter, IMO). But for some unfathomable reason I never 'cracked' Doktor Faustus  :(.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on December 01, 2019, 05:58:47 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 01, 2019, 04:59:26 AM
A dude never tells.  ;D :P

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2506/0800/files/Like_Yer_Style_grande.jpg?v=1524513446)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Cato on December 02, 2019, 04:59:27 AM
Quote from: André on December 01, 2019, 05:07:58 AM
There is plenty of humour in The Buddenbrooks, The Magic Mountain and Joseph and his Brothers, too (particularly in the latter, IMO). But for some unfathomable reason I never 'cracked' Doktor Faustus  :(.

I once composed the first act of an opera with 19-tone scales (7 quarter-tones) and also used 24-tone rows (??????) based on Doctor Faustus.  I wrote the text in German and used parts of the novel itself in the libretto.

A funny story: I took the libretto to my former German professor, a very nice lady, to be corrected.

At one point she had highlighted a sentence and asked me: "How did you come up with this?"

I said: "I didn't!  Thomas Mann did!  That's taken directly from the novel."

After looking a little confused and skeptical, she said: "Oh, well, all right then."

The implication was: if I had written the sentence, it was wrong.   ???

But since Thomas Mann had written it, it was fine!   :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 03, 2019, 12:29:30 AM
Quote from: Cato on December 02, 2019, 04:59:27 AM

At one point she had highlighted a sentence and asked me: "How did you come up with this?"

I said: "I didn't!  Thomas Mann did!  That's taken directly from the novel."

After looking a little confused and skeptical, she said: "Oh, well, all right then."

The implication was: if I had written the sentence, it was wrong.   ???

But since Thomas Mann had written it, it was fine!   :D

That is, in fact, how it goes. When I first started translating, I was told by a professor-friend: Don't ever let on that you're German. Don't have an accent, make sure everything is idiomatic, and get all the colloquialisms right. Once they trust you are a native speaker, you will get away with being creative with language and -- if it's actually good -- it's considered inventive. If they think you're a foreigner, it'll be considered a mistake, no matter how good it is.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827): Schroeder of Peanuts
Post by: Cato on December 09, 2019, 08:58:42 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 03, 2019, 12:29:30 AM
That is, in fact, how it goes. When I first started translating, I was told by a professor-friend: Don't ever let on that you're German. Don't have an accent, make sure everything is idiomatic, and get all the colloquialisms right. Once they trust you are a native speaker, you will get away with being creative with language and -- if it's actually good -- it's considered inventive. If they think you're a foreigner, it'll be considered a mistake, no matter how good it is.

Later on in my career I discovered that such is indeed "how it goes."   ;)

I was talking with someone about what seems to be right now the lack of a "bridge" into classical music from the usual jibber-jabber of our kulcher.  (The news yesterday had a profile of some teenager who "writes songs" in her bedroom, puts them on YouTube, and improbably became "rich and famous."  Why could that not be the case for a classical-music prodigy?)

The comic strip Peanuts was an example of a "bridge" into classical music, and specifically Beethoven.  The character Schroeder (I do not believe the first name was ever revealed) is a prodigy with a semi-magical toy piano which can play works by Beethoven (and a few others, "Papa Haydn" was once mentioned).

I recall several of my grade-school classmates becoming interested in Beethoven specifically because of Peanuts.

One would think that grade-school music would mention Beethoven, but...

I use parts of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis in my Latin classes to catalyze some interest.


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on December 16, 2019, 02:31:11 PM
Anyone else binging on Beethoven's music for his 249th birthday today?

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/640x360/p06q55p2.jpg)

Happy birthday to the maestro. Mostly piano sonatas for me, today, though I also listened to Mitsuko Uchida play the 4th piano concerto w/ Kurt Sanderling and the Royal Concertgebouw; Carlos Kleiber conducting the 7th symphony; the Colorado String Quartet playing the Quartetto Serioso; and now I'm listening to Christa Ludwig singing Abscheulicher from Fidelio off of a recital CD w/ Otto Klemperer and the Philharmonia. More to come. I may or may not dedicate tomorrow entirely to Beethoven as well... I still want to get the Missa and the 9th symphony in there somewhere... and probably op.131 as well.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 20, 2020, 04:28:14 AM
Latest [Insider content] Review for ClassicsToday:

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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERLpK1EXsAABcAz?format=jpg&name=small) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/warners-complete-beethoven-box-a-bouquet-of-roses-and-nettles/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2020, 03:07:55 PM
Are people aware of the problem of the tempo in the finale of Op 111?
Basically Beethoven's MS makes it clear that he wants a constant pulse throughout the Arietta (a contrast to the changing tempi in the first movement), ie each beat is constant (the number of beats in a bar changes in the variations of course). Various commentators and editors such as Tovey have supported this. When the variations are played there is an impression of increased movement because of smaller notes values, but the basic pulse stays the same.
However, the pianistic traditions gets this wrong and speeds up in variations 2 and 3 so that the third variation has become famous as a 'boogie-woogie', whereas it is actually a lamenting aria with strong dotted rhythms.
Every recording of Op 111 (over 600), as far as I know, perpetrates this error, except Friedrich Gulda's second recording (on Philips), where he merely speeds up a little.
One writer who has written on this is British pianist and academic Raymond Clarke and he has broadcast a performance using the correct tempo on BBC Radio 3. However I had no idea he had also made a disk, which I have only just now found out about. It's a live recital from 1993 on a pretty obscure label:

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/DD%200017 (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/DD%200017)

So now you can hear what this sounds like.  :)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2020, 07:46:50 PM
So you're claiming that over 600 pianists have recorded the piece while ignoring the score?

I find that implausible. I find it more plausible that what the score actually means is different, in terms of the sound generated, compared to what you're proposing. Unless, of course, what you're proposing is that there's a difference between the manuscript and published editions, which is a different question. But then you bring in "editors such as Tovey", which rather leads me to presume that Tovey successfully got an edition printed that reflected his thoughts on the subject.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 20, 2020, 08:41:31 PM
Quote from: Madiel on March 20, 2020, 07:46:50 PM
So you're claiming that over 600 pianists have recorded the piece while ignoring the score?



It's the influence of Schnabel I think.

I think it's a really good example of how living and how complex making music is. Each player interprets a score according to his own acumen and sensibility. He may be guided by many things -- by the internal structure of the score itself, by his personal experience in music making, by reference to various traditions, by the action of other musicians working on the piece, by conversations with the composer. This is a form of life, a whirl of organism, which give rise to musical expression.

To return to your response, Madiel, in practice the score is just one influencing force amongst many.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2020, 09:03:12 PM
Yes, but my point is that I'm not entirely certain the claim about what the score requires is accurate. The notation as to how to change from one variation to the next is not straightforward.

Unfortunately I can't locate my edition right this second but I will hunt for it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2020, 09:20:07 PM
In fact I found a manuscript online.

What it ACTUALLY says is simply "same tempo", while changing the time signature and using faster note values.

On what basis can you say that this actually means have the same pace of beat, but more beats per bar? How exactly do you go from 9/16 to 6/16 and add beats? Both are written to indicate 3 beats a bar. So is 12/32.  3 beats per bar.

And the variations continue to be written as 2 halves of 8 bars each.

I'm unable to find a basis in that notation to say, oh, but we don't want the music to feel fast so we'd better say that actually there are more beats per bar and so each bar takes longer. The reason that 600 pianists have a boogie-woogie is because they read that as saying they're required to have 3 beats in a bar, just as they did at the start, and that each beat should take the same amount of time as before so therefore each BAR should take as long as before.

The reason it sounds fast is because there are 8 notes in that variation (or 4 pairings) where originally there was only 1. If you count 3 beats a bar, it's still actually damn slow.

What calyptorhynchus is effectively arguing is that all of the pianists should have 12 beats in a bar where they originally had 3, and for the boogie-woogie variation to take 4 times as long to play as the original theme despite being notated as the same number of bars.

That, in my view (and apparently the view of almost all pianists), is not "same tempo". That is ignoring the change in note values and acting as if Beethoven should have kept writing in the same length notes but couldn't figure out how to move the bar lines.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 20, 2020, 10:36:37 PM
Just listened to Raymond Clarke.

Yeah. That's nonsense. If Beethoven wanted that he would have written longer bars with the same note values, or more bars per variation, not bars of the same length with quicker note values. Both of those options would have been considerably easier for him to write than what he actually wrote.

That is not same tempo, that is making the 3 beats per bar slower and slower.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on March 20, 2020, 10:53:08 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2020, 03:07:55 PM
Are people aware of the problem of the tempo in the finale of Op 111?
Basically Beethoven's MS makes it clear that he wants a constant pulse throughout the Arietta (a contrast to the changing tempi in the first movement), ie each beat is constant (the number of beats in a bar changes in the variations of course). Various commentators and editors such as Tovey have supported this. When the variations are played there is an impression of increased movement because of smaller notes values, but the basic pulse stays the same.
However, the pianistic traditions gets this wrong and speeds up in variations 2 and 3 so that the third variation has become famous as a 'boogie-woogie', whereas it is actually a lamenting aria with strong dotted rhythms.
Every recording of Op 111 (over 600), as far as I know, perpetrates this error, except Friedrich Gulda's second recording (on Philips), where he merely speeds up a little.
One writer who has written on this is British pianist and academic Raymond Clarke and he has broadcast a performance using the correct tempo on BBC Radio 3. However I had no idea he had also made a disk, which I have only just now found out about. It's a live recital from 1993 on a pretty obscure label:

https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/DD%200017 (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/DD%200017)

So now you can hear what this sounds like.  :)


It's actually not that uncommon for pianists to hold fairly close to one steady tempo for the entire Arietta.

A few examples, all timings given in minutes:seconds:
[Pianist: Theme / Variation 1 / Variation 2 (6/16) / Variation 3 (12/32/"boogie-woogie") / Variation 4 (9/16/"little stars") and continuation / Variation 5 and coda]
Michel Dalberto: 2:02 / 2:01 / 1:55 / 2:07 / 4:53 / 3:38 (overall the "evenest" tempo wise)
Charles Rosen: 2:38 / 2:25 / 2:31 / 2:17 / 6:06 / 4:05
Mitsuko Uchida: 2:17 / 2:21 / 1:57 / 2:03 / 5:31 / 4:25
Edwin Fischer: 1:53 / 1:43 / 1:36 / 2:03 / 4:32 / 3:23

Schnabel maintains an even tempo apart from a very slow Arietta: 2:48 / 1:56 / 1:53 / 1:55 / 5:19 / 4:22. Hans Richter-Haaser is similar with a less slow Arietta: 2:18 / 1:59 / 1:55 / 1:54 / 4:23 / 3:19.

The "traditional pianistic view" does seem to be a gradual acceleration as in e.g. Peter Serkin 2:57 / 2:24 / 1:52 / 1:43 / 5:44 / 4:22, but there are some alternative performances where the 12/32 variation is in fact the slowest variation in the sequence (following Edwin Fischer): Zhu Xiao-Mei 2:07 / 1:58 / 1:39 / 2:21 / 5:18 / 3:56, Anton Kuerti 2:00 / 2:07 / 1:48 / 2:15 / 5:15 / 3:30.

And probably the most common unintentional tempo scheme I've seen is for the pianist to attempt to accelerate consistently, but the 6/16 variation ending up being the fastest with the 12/32 variation slowing down again due to its difficulty: András Schiff [Broadwood piano] 2:19 / 1:57 / 1:45 / 2:01 / 5:28 / 3:59, Cédric Pescia 2:15 / 1:51 / 1:39 / 1:57 / 5:19 / 4:13, Bruce Hungerford 2:42 / 2:02 / 1:36 / 1:57 / 5:13 / 4:10, Stephen Kovacevich 2:40 / 2:09 / 1:30 / 1:53 / 5:13 / 3:47, Kazune Shimizu 2:29 / 1:52 / 1:23 / 1:53 / 5:34 / 3:53, Daniel-Ben Pienaar 3:11 / 2:34 / 1:57 / 2:23 / 5:25 / 4:26, etc.

Tempi for the 12/32 variation are tightly clustered in the ~30 second range between 1:50 (Solomon) and 2:21 (Zhu) with almost no outliers: Peter Serkin at 1:43 on the fast end, and Anatol Ugorski at 2:44 on the slow end. Tempi for the 6/16 variation are much more variable with a standard range anywhere between 1:23 (Shimizu) and 2:43 (Sokolov), again with Anatol Ugorski as the outlier at 3:34.

(Anatol Ugorski mostly succeeds at holding to an even tempo until the 12/32 variation: 3:39 / 3:49 / 3:34 / 2:44 / 7:50 / 5:20. Still an achievement in the sense that pedalling a bicycle as slowly as possible without falling over is also an achievement.)

This is all purely on the subject of tempo of course. Character ("a lamenting aria with strong dotted rhythms") is obviously very different.

As for what this basic overall tempo was that Beethoven intended: Czerny, who studied with Beethoven, suggested 63 to the dotted quaver in 1846. Ignaz Moscheles, who also studied with Beethoven, suggested 52 to the dotted quaver in 1838 but had switched to Czerny's suggestion by the 1850s. Beethoven himself, assigning metronome marks to some of his earlier works in 1816-8 (shortly before writing Op. 111), assigned the Adagio affettuoso ed appassionato of Op. 18 no. 1, in 9/8 rather than 9/16, a tempo of 46 to the dotted crotchet; the 9/16 time signature probably also implied a faster tempo, but at this point in Beethoven's lifetime that would hardly be a guarantee. Applied to the Arietta, these yield respective timings of 1:31, 1:51, and 2:05. We can safely assume that Beethoven's intentions were somewhere in that range, making Edwin Fischer probably the most "Beethovenian" pianist.

But of course, pianos and the reception of Beethoven's music have moved on. Nonetheless, it is interesting that while Ariettas have generally slowed down considerably, the variations themselves (at least 1-4) are still almost invariably played at Czerny-Moscheles tempos with the pianistic "consensus" seeming to be either a steadyish tempo of 48-52 beats per minute, or an acceleration from 48-52 bpm to 60-66 bpm over the course of the variations. (Anatol Ugorski's tempo, for comparison, is approximately 26 bpm.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2020, 11:02:43 PM
Well, in the late 1990s I had a correspondence with Raymonde Clarke himself on this issue (at that time he was a lecturer in music at the university of bridal, I don't know what he is doing now, he may have retired).

Anyway, this is what (in part) he wrote:

When Opus 111 was first published, one of the earliest reviews was in a London magazine called "The Harmonican", which wrote the following in its August 1823 issue:

"The second movement is an Arietta, adagio, and extends to the extraordinary length of thirteen pages.  The subject of this is not inelegant, but its ramifications are noted down in so unnecessarily perplexing and discouraging a manner that, we may without hazard foretell, only a few very dauntless, persevering enthusiasts will ever attempt it."

The critic was wrong, because Beethoven had been aware of the confusion which would result if he notated the second movement score in academically correct notation, so in order to prevent his score from looking too complex, Beethoven had actually simplified the notation!  Ironically, it was this attempt at simplification which created the misguided performance tradition which has existed ever since.  I have seen a facsimile of the original manuscript, which (although very untidy) is identical in its choice of note values to all standard editions, including the one which the London critic saw in 1823.

As you already realise, the same harmonies are used as the basis of all the variations in the Arietta, and it was clearly Beethoven's intention that the underlying pulse should remain consistent throughout the movement, so that the slow harmonic progression remains at the same tempo.  This is what he meant when he wrote "L'istesso tempo" at the start of variations 2 & 3.  If one examines the notation of each variation in turn, one can observe what Beethoven intended, and what performers have mistakenly thought he intended.

The tempo (pulse) which the performer adopts in the opening theme should be retained for the entire movement.  Obviously, this theme, in 9/16, can be thought of as 3 slow beats in the bar, or 9 faster beats in the bar.  It is easy to continue in the same tempo for the following Variation 1, because the time signature remains the same, 9/16.

But what happens at the first "L'istesso tempo" marking?  This is the start of Variation 2, where every pianist makes the same mistake.  To see why, look at the end of Variation 1.  Initially, there is the "first time" passage (a bar and a third), and then, after the repeat marks, the "second time" bar.  However, the "second time" bar is not a complete bar (it consists of only six sixteenth-notes instead of nine, taking up only two-thirds of a bar) then the "L'istesso tempo" starts with four notes in the left hand (C, G, F sharp & G).  In effect, Beethoven has started Variation 2 two-thirds of the way through the bar, just as the theme and Variation 1 did.  Remember that the tempo has to be consistent throughout the movement (which is what "L'istesso tempo" means) and you'll appreciate that the initial "third of a bar" of Variation 2 (the notes C, G, F sharp & G) must be at the same speed (pulse) as the music which has preceded it.  This means that those four notes comprising the "final third of the bar" must fit into the 7th, 8th & 9th sixteenth-notes of the incomplete "second-time" bar, so that the "second-time" bar is complete.  (For the moment, ignore the change of time-signature to 6/16, as I will explain this later).

In theory, this should present no problems for the performer.  Obviously, the C will be struck on the 7th sixteenth-note of the second-time bar.  The remaining three notes (G, F sharp & G) have to be fitted into the 8th & 9th sixteenth notes, and since their values are thirty-second note, sixteenth note, and thirty-second note respectively, this means that the first G and the F sharp will both be sounded within the 8th sixteenth-note beat of the bar, then the final G will be struck AFTER the 9th sixteenth-note beat.  No note is actually struck precisely on the 9th sixteenth-note, which therefore should give a syncopated effect.  On paper, this looks obvious, as the C, G, F sharp, G figure consists of note values which total to three sixteenth-notes, equivalent to the last third of a bar of 9/16.

But what do performers do?  If you listen to them, you'll hear that they put the C on the 7th sixteenth-note of the bar, but then play the first G before the next sixteenth note.  By doing this, the F sharp is struck on the 8th sixteenth-note beat, and then the final G is played before the next sixteenth-note beat.  What happens effectively is that they crush the C, G, F sharp, G figure into only TWO sixteenth-note beats, so that the second time bar is a total of only eight sixteenth-notes long.

The problem is that once these four notes have been played, the tempo for Variation 2 has been established, and it is a different tempo for Variation 1.  If the C, G, F sharp, G figure (a third of a bar) is played in the time of only two sixteenth-note beats at the previous tempo, the first complete bar of Variation 2 (when continued at this tempo) will take only six sixteenth-notes.  Yet Beethoven marked "L'istesso tempo", indicating that he intended each bar of Variation 2 to be played at the same tempo as Variation 1.  However, Variation 2 is played much faster than it should be, because each bar (consisting of nine beats) is crushed into the time of six beats.

At this point, you'll be wondering why I haven't acknowledge the 6/16 time signature at the start of Variation 2, which would apparently explain everything.  I'll come to that in a minute, but ignore the use of a 6/16 time signature for the moment.

We have now established that Variation 2 is played at a pulse whereby each bar is passing at the equivalent of six beats of the previous tempo.  It sounds silly and trivial at this tempo, like some sort of boogie-woogie.  Throughout Variation 2, the dominant rhythm consists of an alternation between sixteenth-notes and thirty-second-notes, but in Variation 3 (again marked "L'istesso tempo") the alternation is between thirty-second-notes and sixty-fourth-notes.  In effect, what should happen is that the eight-note descending C major arpeggio in the right hand which begins Variation 3 should be equal in length to a third of a bar in the preceding variation (the same duration as the C, G, F sharp, G figure which started Variation 2).  It's easy for performers to keep the same pulse when making the transition from Variation 2 to Variation 3, because the rhythmic structure is similar but the note values are twice as small (and therefore twice as fast).  The problem is that since Variation 2 is already at the wrong tempo (the metronome mark taken is either 50% too fast, or needs a 33% reduction in speed, depending on whether you calculate it relative to the slower or faster tempo) this speed discrepancy continues into Variation 4, with grotesque results.  Have you ever heard this variation sounding like an adagio, with arpeggio decorations, which is what was intended?  Most performances which I have heard make it sound like a charleston.

After this variation, Beethoven returns to his initial 9/16 time signature and there are no further problems with the notation, as from this point on, it is clear how to subdivide each bar into nine beats.

But if Beethoven intended Variation 2 to be played at "L'istesso tempo" in the same pulse as Variation 1, why did he change the time signature to 6/16?  Surely if pianists are playing Variation 2 at a tempo which is equivalent to six sixteenth-notes, this is what Beethoven intended?  No, for the following reasons.

Variation 2 is notated in a strange mixture of 6/16 and 9/16.  If you look at various "thirds" of a bar, you will find that the note values sometimes add up to 3/16, whereas on other occasions they add up to 2/16.  Take the first complete bar of Variation 2:  in the right hand the first third of the bar and the second third both add up to 3/16 each, but on the last beat of the bar Beethoven simply puts a quaver rest, equivalent to 2/16; yet in the left hand, he uses two sixteenth-notes for the first third of the bar, another two sixteenth-notes for the second third of the bar, then uses notes values equivalent to 3/16 for the last third of the bar.  Why does he do this?

Consider the notation of rhythms in Beethoven's time.  He did not feel that 9/16 was an appropriate time signature for Variation 2, because in the 1820s this still implied a regular series of "three groups of three" which doesn't match the rhythmic character of this variation, because the of the implied syncopation (there is never a note actually struck on what could be considered the 3rd, 6th or 9th sixteenth-notes of each bar).  Variation 2 certainly has three groups in each bar, but the ear tends to hear each group as subdivided into two, rather than three, because of this syncopation.  Naturally, when pianists play it at a faster tempo, all sense of 9/16 with syncopation disappears, and it just sounds like a plain series of six beats per bar.  Tovey (in his introduction to the 1931 Associated Board edition - a good edition and still available in the UK) suggests that Beethoven could have used the time signature 18/32, which would be technically correct as regards note values.

Tovey points out that Beethoven simplified his notation by leaving out dots after what are supposed to be dotted sixteenth-notes.  If Beethoven had included all the dots, here and throughout the variation, it would have made the notation look too complicated, so he missed them out, believing that performers would understand what he meant by "L'istesso tempo".  For example, look at the left hand of the sixth complete bar of Variation 2 and you'll see that the bass stave consists entirely of what should be dotted sixteenth-notes, but Beethoven omitted all six dots, making it look like 6/16 in the bass, even though the note values in the right hand add up to 9/16 in this bar.  This is another reason why Beethoven wrote 6/16, because by omitting dots his score "looked like" 6/16 - but he did not intend performers to interpret this as "six sixteenth-note beats, each beat being equivalent to one of the sixteenth-note beats in the previous 9/16", which is what one hears in all performances.

As for Variation 3, Beethoven gave it time signature of 12/32, but Tovey points out that technically the time signature should be 36/64, so as to indicate clearly three groups of twelve sixty-fourth notes per third of a bar.  Again, Tovey points out that Beethoven omitted dots so as to not to confuse the notation.  Look at the first complete bar of Variation 3, where there is E/G in the right hand: that thirty-second-note technically should be dotted because in the left hand the same time is taken up by a thirty-second-note and a sixty-fourth-note combined.  But Beethoven did not wish to be pedantic by including all the dots.  It is of course, virtually impossible for anyone to conceive Variation 3 as having "three groups of three beats" in every bar; the ear inevitable hears it as six beats per bar.  However, this does not alter the fact that the six beats per bar which the listener hears should be equivalent in duration to the nine beats per bar which the notation implies (or would imply, if all the dots were included).

And, to answer another question, do I believe that 600 pianists could misread the score, yes, easily, especially in the modern era when experience of the work is likely to begin with hearing recordings rather than studying the score.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on March 20, 2020, 11:42:33 PM
Dalberto recording isn't on youtube but here's the moment of transition from Variation 1 to Variation 2 from Charles Rosen - https://youtu.be/ARa8LIJpRNY?t=293
Hans Richter-Haaser - https://youtu.be/8ge5lOKNs84?t=780
Edwin Fischer - https://youtu.be/fc78baFyMOs?t=732
Olga Pashchenko - https://youtu.be/y8Eg9K5BRyg?t=240
Robert Riefling - https://youtu.be/X3-X4UUaot0?t=782

All of these are "correct" for their tempo in that the beat is maintained. Clarke (the one he's made available on Soundcloud that is) actually does slow down pretty significantly at the transition into variation 2 (his timings: 2:57 / 2:32 / 3:09 / 2:30 / 4:58 / 3:43) and is therefore somewhat less "correct"; it would probably have been easier if he'd picked a faster tempo, though. Here's Ugorski's transition (also "correct" for his tempo, which is however wildly "incorrect"): https://youtu.be/y_Ch7JY4i5Y?t=438

I suppose one could obtain the most perfect "L'istesso tempo" possible through use of a metronome, or a click track.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 21, 2020, 12:12:23 AM
Well, Calyptorhyncus, a significant part of what Raymond Clarke wrote does not accord with your own attempt at description.

And the fact is, if you keep 3 beats a bar at the same pace that variation will not sound slow. It just won't. Not unless the opening of the movement was truly glacial. As amw says, if you use a metronome and translate directly you will get something that doesn't sound at all like what Clarke does. I literally worked through it myself this afternoon.

He may well be right that some people accelerate a bit and heighten the effect, but they don't speed up nearly as much as he's claiming. Some of his basic observations are correct, but then his attempt to apply mathematics to what other pianists are actually doing is way off.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2020, 12:25:24 AM
Quote from: amw on March 20, 2020, 11:42:33 PM
Dalberto recording isn't on youtube but here's the moment of transition from Variation 1 to Variation 2 from Charles Rosen - https://youtu.be/ARa8LIJpRNY?t=293
Hans Richter-Haaser - https://youtu.be/8ge5lOKNs84?t=780
Edwin Fischer - https://youtu.be/fc78baFyMOs?t=732
Olga Pashchenko - https://youtu.be/y8Eg9K5BRyg?t=240
Robert Riefling - https://youtu.be/X3-X4UUaot0?t=782

All of these are "correct" for their tempo in that the beat is maintained. Clarke (the one he's made available on Soundcloud that is) actually does slow down pretty significantly at the transition into variation 2 (his timings: 2:57 / 2:32 / 3:09 / 2:30 / 4:58 / 3:43) and is therefore somewhat less "correct"; it would probably have been easier if he'd picked a faster tempo, though. Here's Ugorski's transition (also "correct" for his tempo, which is however wildly "incorrect"): https://youtu.be/y_Ch7JY4i5Y?t=438

I suppose one could obtain the most perfect "L'istesso tempo" possible through use of a metronome, or a click track.

I like Dalberto's sound, and his approach. Thanks for pointing it out, it's on Qobuz.

There's a similar issue with the speed of the first variation of the Goldberg Variations,  Gould set a trend - Egarr discusses this in his paper Cantabile Heaven, and I think Glen Wilson discusses it too (may be wrong about that! )
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2020, 12:34:54 AM
Clarke of course was a lecturer at the University of Bristol not bridal (autocorrect). 😺
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2020, 12:42:45 AM
Quote from: Madiel on March 21, 2020, 12:12:23 AM
Well, Calyptorhyncus, a significant part of what Raymond Clarke wrote does not accord with your own attempt at description.

And the fact is, if you keep 3 beats a bar at the same pace that variation will not sound slow.
When I said var 3 should sound like a slow aria I didn't mean it would sound as slow as the theme (I meant it should sound a lot slower than most interpretations you hear) . And I did say that the movement sounds like it increasing in speed because of smaller note values. What the argument is about is whether pianists should literally increase in speed per beat during the movement.

And if Beethoven had wanted to introduce a trivial dance into this movement he could have just written Allegro alla tedesca.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on March 21, 2020, 12:58:17 AM
Under no circumstances is Variation 3 going to sound like a "slow aria" given the scoring (lots of octaves, broken chords, and virtuosic register shifts), dynamics, rhythmic syncopations, and quick harmonic rhythm. I point you once again in the direction of the slowest existing rendition of that variation* audible here https://youtu.be/y_Ch7JY4i5Y?t=659—it still sounds comparatively brilliant and potentially heroic-C-major-ish, and it tends to sound like that regardless of what specific tempo it's played at. If Beethoven did not intend for it to be an outpouring of ecstatic plenitude or pianistic brilliance or whatever, he should have written different notes and maybe set the whole thing at a dynamic of piano rather than forte, because that's literally always what it is (& it's usually quite thrilling rather than trivial, at least in a good performance).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on March 21, 2020, 01:12:03 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2020, 12:42:45 AM
What the argument is about is whether pianists should literally increase in speed per beat during the movement.

What you actually SAID was that there should be more beats per bar. Which is very different. And was the primary basis for my comments.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on March 21, 2020, 03:37:48 AM
All this talk (much of which goes well over my head) has prompted me to put on a recording of op.111 that I've not heard before, Pi-hsien Chen:

(https://img.discogs.com/ZWLxBgNYr7CzSZRDeDFpu4pZX7E=/fit-in/600x527/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9909162-1488367520-8823.jpeg.jpg)

I think she does a good job of maintaining the pulse throughout the Arietta, up until the "boogie-woogie" variation where she definitely speeds up a good bit. I really like her sound. Her piano sounds great, warm, but crisp, and she plays with a decisive touch. It's not too too far removed from one of my other favorites, Maurizio Pollini. Worth a listen. (In case anyone is curious, the performances of the Stockhausen Klavierstücke are also very impressive, though I don't know the works in any other recording.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 19, 2020, 04:31:09 PM
Further to this discussion of the tempo in the final of Beethoven's Op111, I have been occupied for the last few weeks in orchestrating the Arietta in a score program. Here are the results at metronome 35 per beat throughout (similar to Clarke's tempo):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/h38h3ltun6hickg/Arietta_from_Beethoven%2527s_Piano_Sonata_No_32.flac/file

A Flac file at 80mb I'm afraid as the mp3 output was very poor quality. And of course it is only an electronic rendition, not a real orchestra, so you will have to make allowances.

And here is the score if anyone wants to read this:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ysk6m96r2jowf1t/Arietta_from_Beethoven%2527s_Piano_Sonata_No_32.pdf/file

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on April 19, 2020, 11:05:50 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2020, 12:42:45 AM
When I said var 3 should sound like a slow aria I didn't mean it would sound as slow as the theme (I meant it should sound a lot slower than most interpretations you hear) . And I did say that the movement sounds like it increasing in speed because of smaller note values. What the argument is about is whether pianists should literally increase in speed per beat during the movement.

And if Beethoven had wanted to introduce a trivial dance into this movement he could have just written Allegro alla tedesca.

Part of the problem is the idea that the variation is "trivial" as it is.

We are at a totally different place in time now than Beethoven and his contemporaries are, and what me sound trivial and "boogiewoogie" to us, may have been totally different to Beethoven.
In any case, Beethoven's later works have a lot of episodes where the taste protocol is broken. Including the Turkish band in symphony nr. 9 and the strange march in the great opus 131 string quartet. Beethoven was very much engaged in parodies, and I use this word without "taste" prejudice. The parodies weren't meant to be "funny". He was just as serious when he was writing what sounds to some as a boogiewoogie parody.

It seems to me that these attempts to slow down the third variation in the Arietta is a taste police intervention. Beethoven was a Great Serious Man and everything he did ought to sound accordingly.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on April 20, 2020, 05:31:08 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 19, 2020, 04:31:09 PM
Further to this discussion of the tempo in the final of Beethoven's Op111, I have been occupied for the last few weeks in orchestrating the Arietta in a score program. Here are the results at metronome 35 per beat throughout (similar to Clarke's tempo):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/h38h3ltun6hickg/Arietta_from_Beethoven%2527s_Piano_Sonata_No_32.flac/file

A Flac file at 80mb I'm afraid as the mp3 output was very poor quality. And of course it is only an electronic rendition, not a real orchestra, so you will have to make allowances.

And here is the score if anyone wants to read this:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ysk6m96r2jowf1t/Arietta_from_Beethoven%2527s_Piano_Sonata_No_32.pdf/file

This doesn't mean anything unless you explain what you considered to be a "beat". I've already pointed out that your own initial attempt at explanation was contrary to Clarke's writing. Did you keep 3 beats per bar throughout?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2020, 12:16:48 PM
Quote from: Madiel on April 20, 2020, 05:31:08 AM
This doesn't mean anything unless you explain what you considered to be a "beat". I've already pointed out that your own initial attempt at explanation was contrary to Clarke's writing. Did you keep 3 beats per bar throughout?

Have a listen.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on April 20, 2020, 02:30:48 PM
I'd rather you explain your technique first.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on April 20, 2020, 04:08:52 PM
Never mind. I'm sorry but it's too slow from the beginning.

I mean, I can check that you basically have it right by establishing that each variation takes the same amount of chronological time (just under 2:45). But 2:45 per variation is slower than most of the recordings that amw listed. And that coupled with using sustaining instruments rather than piano sound is inevitably going to make the end result sound poor even if you have the maths right.

Make the theme last a considerably shorter time and you might have something.

EDIT: A beat approaching 45 rather than 35 might do it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on April 27, 2020, 06:05:04 PM
I'd agree that a tempo of 35 BPM is probably too slow for 111/ii. But Christoph Eschenbach among others would not, and I have never made any recordings for Warner Classics whereas he has, so that's obviously a matter of opinion.

I would say, however, that Op.111 (and Beethoven sonatas in general) are not good candidates for orchestration. Those with Spotify or Deezer etc can test that assertion by listening to the Weingartner orchestration of Op.106, recorded by Weingartner himself in the 30s. Mainly it's the wide spectrum of timbres across registers that lets orchestrations down, e.g. a flute on the high notes vs a contrabass on the low notes when part of Beethoven's conception was that both high and low notes, chords and single notes should be projected by one relatively consistent timbre at relatively consistent volumes. If one is tasked with arranging a Beethoven piano work for another ensemble the only things I can see that would work would be ensembles with a relative uniformity of timbre, e.g. a string quartet, recorder ensemble, guitar quartet or duo, etc. The other problem is when people attempt to literally transcribe piano figurations for other instruments (as Weingartner does as well) to which they are not suited. Some amount of creative rewriting is necessary because there is no way to make e.g. an Alberti bass or an arpeggio figuration sound good on any other instrument except maybe the harp. (And one must also write out the effects of piano pedalling.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 28, 2020, 01:55:45 AM
Ah well, I make no claims for the 'orchestration', I just wanted to have the movement in a form where I could dial the speed up and down and listen to it, and then it occurred to me that if I was going to bother to enter all the notes it would be fun to give them to different instruments.

Piece of trivia, did you know that the piano has a higher range than any orchestral instrument? In this movement I had to use the piccolo for the highest notes that Beethoven uses!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on April 28, 2020, 05:43:20 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 28, 2020, 01:55:45 AM
Piece of trivia, did you know that the piano has a higher range than any orchestral instrument?

Yes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on May 27, 2020, 08:06:08 AM
Perhaps this should be in the Great Recordings section, however I was wondering whether anybody here had been in contact yet with the Quatuor Ebene's complete recording of the LvB quartets, the one they recorded live on a giant world tour.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on May 28, 2020, 12:03:29 AM
Quote from: Herman on May 27, 2020, 08:06:08 AM
Perhaps this should be in the Great Recordings section, however I was wondering whether anybody here had been in contact yet with the Quatuor Ebene's complete recording of the LvB quartets, the one they recorded live on a giant world tour.
Yes. It's very good, mostly for the ensemble playing, which is very high quality and lived-in, and the beauty of their tone—the sound the quartet can make when they play without vibrato is remarkable, polished and almost choir-like, and instantly recogniseable as theirs. (Their intonation in chords has occasional imperfections, but not ones a casual listener would notice.) They are somewhat idiosyncratic in their interpretive choices, favouring the long pause and the expressive micro-ritardando to a great extent, which might bother some people. But they are clearly very enthusiastic about the music.

I've listened on headphones and can't detect any acoustic differences between recordings made in different cities, nor any trace of audience noise. So the recordings were either made with very close miking, or the quartet sat down and recorded them all back home in Paris after finishing their world tour and simply used it as a gimmick, or someone in the studio has been very busy trying to make the acoustic envelope uniform. Not sure which.

Style points of comparison: Lindsay Quartet, Artemis Quartet, Belcea Quartet, Leipzig Quartet
Technique/performance quality points of comparison: Takács Quartet, Artemis Quartet, Auryn Quartet, Busch Quartet
Personal grade: A+

I may eventually do a comparison of the four (or more) cycles that have come out so far for the Beethoven 250 (those being the Ébène, Cuarteto Casals, Kuss Quartet & Miró Quartet—not sure if there are more to expect later on) but don't hold your breath for it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 28, 2020, 12:20:00 AM
Well Todd loves the hell out of it on the WAYLTN thread.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 08, 2020, 05:56:47 AM
Latest on ClassicsToday (insider content, alas): The Mandolin and Beethoven's Saturday Night Fever.


Filling In The Gaps: Beethoven For The Mandolin
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcZ4XjFWAAA9Xhn?format=jpg&name=large) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/filling-in-the-gaps-beethoven-for-the-mandolin/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Papy Oli on July 14, 2020, 12:47:54 PM
The BBC has an ongoing documentary series called Being Beethoven, 2 episodes so far.

Contributors include so far Marin Alsop, Boris Giltburg, Viviana Sofronitsky and apparently Paul Lewis, concert extracts with Ivan Fischer...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000kqq4/being-beethoven (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000kqq4/being-beethoven)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on November 04, 2020, 06:12:42 AM
Why Beethoven doesn't deserve to be canceled (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/02/why-beethoven-doesnt-deserve-be-canceled/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 07:04:07 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 04, 2020, 06:12:42 AM
Why Beethoven doesn't deserve to be canceled (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/02/why-beethoven-doesnt-deserve-be-canceled/)

This piece is just as stupid as the criticism of Beethoven it purports to rebuke.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2020, 07:36:46 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 07:04:07 AM
This piece is just as stupid as the criticism of Beethoven it purports to rebuke.

I wouldn't go that far, but this notion that we should like LvB because he was revolutionary or a liberator or whatever is way overblown. If that were the case, French revolutionary composers like Gossec and Mehul would still be popular. They're not.

Like most great artists, LvB was a self-centered egomaniac. That was the root of his struggles against authority.

Claiming that LvB would have voted for Joe Biden (!) is presentism at its worst.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 04, 2020, 08:24:02 AM
The French revolutionary composers were only moderately innovative *musically*.
Unlike the utterly ridiculous pieces the article refers to, the biographical and historical facts are at least superficially correct (although hand-picked, it would be as easy to find Beethoven's music functionally (ab)used by the Nazis or Stalinist as the symbolic value for struggles against totalitarianism mentioned in the article.
Beethoven wasn't a politically revolutionary but his sympathies for enlightened reforms of the then current state (and while I don't know the details it seems that after Emperor Joseph II. was  a bit over-ambitious in the 1780s his successors did turn the clock back on such reforms) is pretty well documented and while as an aging deaf man he was probably too involved with both his music and personal troubles (nephew Karl affair) to be as bothered by Metternich's proto-Stasi as has sometimes been claimed.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 08:38:55 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2020, 07:36:46 AM
Like most great artists, LvB was a self-centered egomaniac. That was the root of his struggles against authority.

I wouldn't go that far. After all, in his early youth he was quite the socialite and rather eager to ingratiate himself with the aristocracy, including at romantic levels. The onset of deafness ruined all his prospects (which looked promising) and turned him into a disgruntled, embittered and grumpy man. Yet none of the above is any proof that his commitment to personal freedom and social equality for all was insincere.

And I think your claim about most great artists being self-centered egomaniacs is greatly exaggerated. Many, yes, but most?

Quote
Claiming that LvB would have voted for Joe Biden (!) is presentism at its worst.

Not only that, but that he would have enthusiastically written cantatas in Biden's honor (!!!).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ritter on November 04, 2020, 09:06:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 08:38:55 AM

Not only that, but that he would have enthusiastically written cantatas in Biden's honor (!!!).
Look at the bright side: we've been spared a Cantata on the Election of President Joe, which would probably have been just as awful as the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 09:17:28 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 04, 2020, 08:24:02 AM
The French revolutionary composers were only moderately innovative *musically*.
Unlike the utterly ridiculous pieces the article refers to, the biographical and historical facts are at least superficially correct (although hand-picked, it would be as easy to find Beethoven's music functionally (ab)used by the Nazis or Stalinist as the symbolic value for struggles against totalitarianism mentioned in the article.
Beethoven wasn't a politically revolutionary but his sympathies for enlightened reforms of the then current state (and while I don't know the details it seems that after Emperor Joseph II. was  a bit over-ambitious in the 1780s his successors did turn the clock back on such reforms) is pretty well documented and while as an aging deaf man he was probably too involved with both his music and personal troubles (nephew Karl affair) to be as bothered by Metternich's proto-Stasi as has sometimes been claimed.

The stupidiy of the Washington Post piece is to assume that a political liberal of the early 19th century --- which Beethoven, by all contemporary accounts, was --- would automatically translate into a progressive of today. This asumption, which is generally incorrect, is all the more wrong in LvB's case who, by all contemporary accounts, was quite conservative about morality, including sexual matters (his aversion for Cosi fan tutte because of its frivolous and libertine subject matter is notorious). Opposing aristocratic power in principle is not the same as voting for Joe Biden.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 09:22:46 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 04, 2020, 09:06:30 AM
Look at the bright side: we've been spared a Cantata on the Election of President Joe, which would probably have been just as awful as the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II.

Otoh, Rage over a Lost Election would have certainly been as fun.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on November 04, 2020, 09:51:40 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 04, 2020, 08:24:02 AM
it seems that after Emperor Joseph II. was  a bit over-ambitious in the 1780s his successors did turn the clock back on such reforms

Joseph II was just as despotic as his nephew Francis, only he used his despotism to push well-intentioned but ill-conceived reforms which created more problems that they were supposed to solve. His brother and succesor Leopold II, much more cool-headed, moderate and rational than his predecessor, tried hard to redress the situation while preserving the reformist spirit but his untimely death prevented his efforts from being succesful. Leopold's son Francis inherited the Austrian mess and was also challenged first by the French Revolution in its terrorist phase and later by Napoleon's aggressive and warlike foreign policy. Small wonder he retreated to a reactionary policy.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on November 04, 2020, 10:09:13 AM
and yet, the late piano sonatas and string quartets are deaf to such things!    0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on November 04, 2020, 11:37:07 AM
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2020, 07:36:46 AMClaiming that LvB would have voted for Joe Biden (!) is presentism at its worst.


He would have voted for Jo Jorgensen, I know it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 04, 2020, 11:43:05 AM
Quote from: Todd on November 04, 2020, 11:37:07 AM

He would have voted for Jo Jorgensen, I know it.

No way. He was too dependent on Big Gov't (aristocratic and imperial patronage).

With his love of nature, I think he would have gone for the Green Party.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on November 05, 2020, 12:43:35 AM
Quote from: ritter on November 04, 2020, 09:06:30 AM
Look at the bright side: we've been spared a Cantata on the Election of President Joe, which would probably have been just as awful as the Cantata on the Death of Emperor Joseph II.
Honestly though, just speaking as a composer, if I got asked to write a Cantata for the Re-Election of President Trump or whatever, and I got paid for it in advance, I'd definitely do it. Complete with massed choirs singing hymns of praise to Trump, The Great Liberator, etc. It would likely be great for supporting me financially to work on other projects I'm more interested in (and, if it became politically necessary, the text could be rewritten at the last minute to glorify Biden instead of Trump). Politically speaking of course I consider Trump and Biden capitalist pigs or whatever, but work is work. I tend to think most other artists have similar feelings about any political figures they're commissioned to glorify—especially if they're perpetually short of cash, which Beethoven was at certain times in his life.

For this reason I tend to view most composers' political persuasions to be fairly meaningless: art in itself doesn't have specific semantic content. There's not really any way to tell the difference between a funeral march for Ruth Bader Ginsberg and one for Antonin Scalia just by listening, and political texts can be changed easily—or will have their meaning forgotten over time (does anyone care about the text of Das glorreiche Augenblick these days?)

That said Beethoven undoubtedly did have some political and social views, although these do not fall easily into any of our categories of conservative or liberal, as the social context was different. I do not think it's important to understand these views in order to understand his music. He wasn't a "revolutionary" in the French or American sense but I don't think we'd consider those revolutions to necessarily be "progressive" either, except in a strict Marxist/Hegelian view of progression from feudalism into capitalism.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on November 05, 2020, 01:53:10 AM
Oh look, the notion of who he would have voted for falls at the first hurdle. Beethoven emigrated. He'd be living somewhere else by now.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Handelian on November 05, 2020, 02:11:43 AM
Quote from: amw on November 05, 2020, 12:43:35 AM
Honestly though, just speaking as a composer, if I got asked to write a Cantata for the Re-Election of President Trump or whatever, and I got paid for it in advance, I'd definitely do it. Complete with massed choirs singing hymns of praise to Trump, The Great Liberator, etc. It would likely be great for supporting me financially to work on other projects I'm more interested in (and, if it became politically necessary, the text could be rewritten at the last minute to glorify Biden instead of Trump). Politically speaking of course I consider Trump and Biden capitalist pigs or whatever, but work is work. I tend to think most other artists have similar feelings about any political figures they're commissioned to glorify—especially if they're perpetually short of cash, which Beethoven was at certain times in his life.

For this reason I tend to view most composers' political persuasions to be fairly meaningless: art in itself doesn't have specific semantic content. There's not really any way to tell the difference between a funeral march for Ruth Bader Ginsberg and one for Antonin Scalia just by listening, and political texts can be changed easily—or will have their meaning forgotten over time (does anyone care about the text of Das glorreiche Augenblick these days?)

That said Beethoven undoubtedly did have some political and social views, although these do not fall easily into any of our categories of conservative or liberal, as the social context was different. I do not think it's important to understand these views in order to understand his music. He wasn't a "revolutionary" in the French or American sense but I don't think we'd consider those revolutions to necessarily be "progressive" either, except in a strict Marxist/Hegelian view of progression from feudalism into capitalism.

Beethoven had the good sense to eventually realise that it was the capitalist pigs who actually paid the bills, whatever he thought of them in private! People like Shostakovich and Prokofiev found that working for the Marxist pigs could be rather intimidating
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on November 05, 2020, 02:17:26 AM
The point was that you can't generally tell much about the political views of a composer from the political content of their music (though there are some exceptions), and need to refer to primary sources such as letters, diaries, conversation books etc. For most of history composers have been dependent on some kind of patronage for their career. That's just a reality about how the music industry works, regardless of the economic system or political circumstances.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 15, 2020, 12:15:07 AM
Different ways to treat (ruin?) Beethoven:


CD from Hell: Beethoven Knob-Fiddling
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-from-hell-beethoven-knob-fiddling/?search=1 (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-from-hell-beethoven-knob-fiddling/?search=1)
(Insider content, alas)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on December 16, 2020, 11:06:03 PM
I believe today's the big day, correct?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MusicTurner on December 16, 2020, 11:55:55 PM
I don't have the energy to go through the thread, and maybe it was already mentioned, but Beethoven's 5th Symphony actually quotes French revolutionary songs, leading to triumph, cf. the musings by Gardiner and others.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on December 17, 2020, 01:39:44 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 16, 2020, 11:06:03 PM
I believe today's the big day, correct?

Depends what time zone you're in and what you are using as a marker. Beethoven considered his birthday to be the 16th. He was baptised on the 17th.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 17, 2020, 06:34:22 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 17, 2020, 01:39:44 AM
Depends what time zone you're in and what you are using as a marker. Beethoven considered his birthday to be the 16th. He was baptised on the 17th.

Of course, for many years he didn't even know his real birth-year, which caused him some consternation...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: GioCar on January 06, 2021, 12:55:17 AM
Arguably the best website on Beethoven I've ever seen

https://www.lvbeethoven.it/

in Italian, but with very good translations (bots?) in English, French, German, Castilian. Once you select a language, you have to cancel the site cookings to revert to Italian  >:(.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 06, 2021, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: GioCar on January 06, 2021, 12:55:17 AM
Arguably the best website on Beethoven I've ever seen

https://www.lvbeethoven.it/

in Italian, but with very good translations (bots?) in English, French, German, Castilian. Once you select a language, you have to cancel the site cookings to revert to Italian  >:(.

What dishes do the site cookings provide? I like to eat and browse 😋
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 26, 2021, 05:43:40 AM
Love this anecdote from BIS Records owner Robert von Bahr about the time that he recorded a live "Missa Solemnis" charity concert with Antal Dorati:

"Oh, how I remember this recording! Sometimes I wake up, sweating. We were sitting in the home of the Berlin Phil and recording this Missa Solemnis by Beethoven. It is a real live recording, with only a short patching session prior to the concert, which means that I had to guess what was going to go wrong at the performance. Anyway, everything went well, surprisingly well, considering that the orchestra, the so-called European SO, was put together of members from a huge number of orchestras, all in the name of IPPNW (International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War), until we came to that fantastic violin solo, wonderfully played by Thomas Brandis, concert-master of the Berlin Phil. There in the middle, someone made an unusually ugly and loud cough. I, who was sitting in the control room with nerves outside of my body, lost it and screamed an expletive, completely forgetting that the control room had a small opening to the hall. Thankfully, I had just those few bars from the patching, so it could be repaired, but then people were discussing who on earth was shouting "STOP" from the back of the audience. Well, it wasn't "STOP", and it wasn't from the audience."

;D ;D ;D

(https://eclassical.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h0877/4700877-origpic-b71545.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on January 26, 2021, 08:51:59 PM
Oh that's hilarious!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 22, 2021, 05:26:44 AM

Latest #CDReview on ClassicsToday: Mitsuko Uchida's Second Beethoven Concerto Cycle

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eu1khp5WQAIG9p7?format=jpg&name=small) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/mitsuko-uchidas-second-beethoven-concerto-cycle/)

Mitsuko Uchida's slightly-under-the-radar cycle of LvB Piano Concertos w/the @BRSO &
the artless Kurt Sanderling (@deccaclassics) is one of my favorites, therefore her new
such cycle roused my interest...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on February 22, 2021, 06:07:14 AM
Oh so Jens works for Classics Today now! interesting.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 23, 2021, 08:46:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on February 22, 2021, 06:07:14 AM
Oh so Jens works for Classics Today now! interesting.

Oh, but for more than 3 years now. Rather under the radar, apparently. ;-) They kindly took me in pretty much right after the Forbes column was put on ice. The price of admission: Not to contradict David H. in public. (I'm kidding...?)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on February 23, 2021, 08:56:44 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 23, 2021, 08:46:52 AM
Oh, but for more than 3 years now. Rather under the radar, apparently. ;-) They kindly took me in pretty much right after the Forbes column was put on ice. The price of admission: Not to contradict David H. in public. (I'm kidding...?)

Oh lol I didn't realize that was you!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on February 23, 2021, 11:10:48 AM
Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on February 23, 2021, 08:46:52 AM
Oh, but for more than 3 years now. Rather under the radar, apparently. ;-) They kindly took me in pretty much right after the Forbes column was put on ice. The price of admission: Not to contradict David H. in public. (I'm kidding...?)

Still waiting to see you in one of Hurwitz's youtube video. I suspect you are easier on the eyes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on February 23, 2021, 11:30:22 PM
That's a rather low hurdle to clear, like a less grating voice.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on February 24, 2021, 02:55:14 AM
Quote from: George on February 23, 2021, 11:10:48 AM
Still waiting to see you in one of Hurwitz's youtube video. I suspect you are easier on the eyes.

We're separated by an ocean, so that's difficult to do. Well, except if he started to Zoom me in, or something of that sort. Jed Distler and I were planning to do an episode of "Between the keys" from my place, in Vienna, but that was before our friend Covid-19 nixed all travel plans.

Yes, I might be easier on the eyes. But that shouldn't distract from the music!  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on April 30, 2021, 07:10:26 AM
For the longest time now, Beethoven's Eroica has been my favourite of the symphonies.  hasn't always been the case, but it has been now for quite some time.  One of the few symphonies that I can still listen to of his.

Anyway, one of my favourite things about the Eroica is the incredible poignancy of the 2nd movement funeral march contrasted and followed by the energetic, frenetic 3rd movement scherzo.  It is the dramatic switch in moods and pace between these two movements that I enjoy so much.

In many recordings, it seems to be commonplace to "play" the 3rd movement attacca following the end of the 2nd movement.  I know that probably isn't how it is marked to be played in the score, but I always find that very effective and rewarding when it is "recorded" as such.  Attending a live performance and the realization that it isn't "performed" attacca has come as a disappointment to me, as I feel each second of waiting between the end of the 2nd movement and beginning of the 3rd movement to be a huge momentum killer.  That's just me.  In other words, I wish it was marked attacca.  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: André on April 30, 2021, 12:11:17 PM
That's funny, for me the attacca should be btw the scherzo and finale  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on June 05, 2021, 01:32:01 PM
There is none marked and I don't recall having it heard done on recordings. Maybe a shorter break after the Scherzo but I think I 'd find it a bit irritating not to have a few deep breaths after the funeral march. I think the Beethoven symphony without attacca marking where I have either from listening or imagining the idea of almost no break between movements 3 and 4 is #7.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on June 06, 2021, 06:51:45 AM
Beethoven Day 2021 (https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/103871-002-A/beethoven-the-european-tour/)

Six months after the end of 2020, which marked the 250th anniversary of Ludwig van Beethoven's birth, all nine of his symphonies are performed by nine prestigious European orchestras and conductors. A musical feast to be enjoyed, for the most part, live, from Strasbourg, Vienna, Bonn, Dublin, Helsinki, Luxembourg, Prague, Lugano and Delphi.

The Symphonies :
13:00 : Bonn: Symphony n°1 : Daniel Harding, Mahler Chamber Orchestra
14:00 Dublin: Symphony n°2 : Jaime Martín, RTÉ National Symphonic Orchestra
15:00 Helsinki: Symphony n°3 : Nicolas Collon, Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra
16:00 Luxembourg: Symphoni n°4 : Gustavo Gimeno, Orchestre philharmonique du Luxembourg, Sylvia Camarda
17:00 Prague: Symphony n°5 : Steven Mercurio, Czech National Symphony Orchestra
18:00 Lugano: Symphony n°6 : Diego Fasolis, I Barocchisti
19:00 Delphi : Symphony n°7 : Teodor Currentzis , MusicAeterna, Sasha Waltz
20:15: Strasbourg : Symphony n°8 : Marko Letonja, Orchestre philharmonique de Strasbourg
21:00 Vienna : Symphony n°9 : Karina Canellakis, Wiener Symphoniker


I'm particularly looking forward to the Seventh, to be performed and broadcasted live from the Ancient Theatre of Delphi.  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on June 16, 2021, 10:06:35 AM
Not just music, but dancing, as well (choreography by Sasha Waltz). For those who did not have the chance to watch it:

Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 (Currentzis/MusicAeterna) from the Ancient Theatre of Delphi (Αρχαίο Θέατρο Δελφών) (https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/103198-001-A/symphony-no-7-in-a-major/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: gprengel on June 19, 2021, 06:46:51 AM
I'd like to share with you my orchestration of one of the very most ingenious Scherzi by Beethoven, Bagatelle for piano Woo 52:

http://gerdprengel.de/Beeth_Woo52_orch.mp3

I wonder why Beethoven never published it ... it would have become an great symphony Scherzo ...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on June 19, 2021, 05:40:52 PM
Most interesting. I had to go listen to the piano original because I wasn't familiar with it or its origin (it's only in the index of Barry Cooper's book, no discussion in the text about how it was meant for the op.10 sonata).

I can certainly hear how it could become orchestral, too, although I think a real orchestra couldn't play quite so fast.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 28, 2021, 03:27:43 PM
I'm looking for a recording of the Harp and Serioso Quartets on period instruments. Can't seem to find one  ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on September 28, 2021, 03:41:23 PM
Eroica Quartet (Harmonia Mundi) has both. Chiaroscuro Quartet recorded Op. 95 on Aparté and Quatuor Turner recorded Op. 74 on Harmonia Mundi.

Op. 59 no. 1 and 2 are the only ones that have yet to be recorded on period instruments. The Mosaïques Quartet recorded all of the middle string quartets to accompany their existing sets of the early and late quartets, but release date is unknown; the Chiaroscuro Quartet has been contracted to record a complete cycle but it likely won't be finished before 2024.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 28, 2021, 05:55:04 PM
Great thanks, extraordinary, given the number of recordings of these works, how few are pi.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 11, 2021, 03:42:50 AM
How do you prefer to tackle the Quartet Op. 130 and the Grosse Fuge? Treat them as separate works? Listen to 5 movts of Op.130 then the Fuge? Or the whole shebang?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 03:56:55 AM
As I am still (or again) in two minds on whether the fugue should be separated or not, I do both.
By now most recordings have the fugue as standard finale (up to the case that the rondo is not included at all), so one has to program/skip for the rondo finale. The fugue is quite exhausting even only listening after an already fairly long piece, which can be a point against the fugue. Listening separately op.133 can get all the attention it deserves.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on October 11, 2021, 04:17:24 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 11, 2021, 03:42:50 AM
How do you prefer to tackle the Quartet Op. 130 and the Grosse Fuge? Treat them as separate works? Listen to 5 movts of Op.130 then the Fuge? Or the whole shebang?
I usually go with whatever tracking the quartet in question has used rather than messing around with it, since that is usually an important part of their conception. But if it were left entirely to my choice, e.g. if I were a string player performing the piece etc, I would finish Op. 130 with the Grosse Fuge and then programme the alternate finale as a (long) encore.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 11, 2021, 04:58:07 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 11, 2021, 03:42:50 AM
How do you prefer to tackle the Quartet Op. 130 and the Grosse Fuge? Treat them as separate works? Listen to 5 movts of Op.130 then the Fuge? Or the whole shebang?

I'll listen to them separately, but I usually skip the revised final movement because I don't like it.  :-\
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: krummholz on October 11, 2021, 07:20:04 AM
Op. 133 FTW. The "revised" finale has never seemed to me to fit with the rest of the quartet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 07:52:12 AM
The second finale fits the quartet actually better by not being a gigantic fugue but more in line with the divertimento-like movements 3 and 4 but it is of course less impressive than the fugue (almost anything is).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: krummholz on October 11, 2021, 08:22:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 07:52:12 AM
The second finale fits the quartet actually better by not being a gigantic fugue but more in line with the divertimento-like movements 3 and 4 but it is of course less impressive than the fugue (almost anything is).

I've never felt that III was divertimento-like. But yes, it's more similar in mood to, say, II and IV. But to me that's not enough to make it "fit", not as a finale anyway. YMMV.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: André on October 11, 2021, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 07:52:12 AM
The second finale fits the quartet actually better by not being a gigantic fugue but more in line with the divertimento-like movements 3 and 4 but it is of course less impressive than the fugue (almost anything is).

My sentiment, too. Listening to the Fugue as part of the quartet is like having a roastbeef follow an already full and satisfying meal. Just too much of a good thing. I find the Fugue a great standalone piece. For the very same reason most performances of Fidelio eschew Leonore III altogether. Playing it within the course of the opera (as Bernstein does, I believe) makes for an awkward construct.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on October 11, 2021, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: André on October 11, 2021, 09:22:52 AM
For the very same reason most performances of Fidelio eschew Leonore III altogether. Playing it within the course of the opera (as Bernstein does, I believe) makes for an awkward construct.

Oh, for this I disagree. I was so disappointed when the Manitoba Opera did Fidelio and did not include the Leonore Overture near the end.  :'( :'(

Since I have Bernstein's recording, I was expecting it, as I didn't realize it wasn't the "norm".

To me, it's the splendid cup of coffee after a very satisfying meal.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 09:36:01 AM
Apparently Mahler introduced Leonore III as an addition within the 2nd act of Fidelio. I think it is bizarre to hold up the action for almost 15 min. with an instrumental "summary". For me, both Leonore II and III have grown to big to remain parts of the opera and are better served as separate "tone poems".
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Biffo on October 12, 2021, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 09:36:01 AM
Apparently Mahler introduced Leonore III as an addition within the 2nd act of Fidelio. I think it is bizarre to hold up the action for almost 15 min. with an instrumental "summary". For me, both Leonore II and III have grown to big to remain parts of the opera and are better served as separate "tone poems".

As I understand it Mahler introduced Leonore III to cover a lengthy scene change. I have never seen it in the theatre and Bernstein is the only recording I know to include it _ I am sure there are others though.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 12, 2021, 08:56:00 AM
I have seen it on stage only once and I don't think they had it in the second act. (But it was messed up anyway as they played parts of Leonore *II* as ouverture, as far as I recall and switched the first pieces or some such experiment.)  The scene change is from the dungeon to the final scene in the courtyard of the prison with the minister. I don't think this is a problem with today's stage technology. Another option would be to play it just as an ouverture altthough it does not fit as well with the first duet whereas the final E major ouverture leads into the A major duet naturally. I think this is one reason why they chose Marzelline's c minor aria as the first piece in that performance I saw 20 years ago. (The Leonore ouvertures are all in C major.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: ritter on October 12, 2021, 10:38:34 AM
I read somewhere that even before Mahler, Otto Nicolai (who died in 1849) inserted the Leonore III overture before the final tableau in performances of Fidelio. Apart from Bernstein, several conductors have followed this custom. Of the recordings I have, two under Karl Böhm (live in Vienna in 1955, and the 1979 Dresden studio version on DG), as well as Toscanini's with the NBC Orchestra, include the Leonore III. Abbado, and the obscure but delightful version conducted Carl Bamberger from Hamburg (originally on LP on Nonesuch, sloppily transferred to CD on the Gala label) do not.

I've seen the work onstage twice, both times here in Madrid. Abbado didn't include the Leonore III (it was a tour of the production that led to his recording mentioned above, albeit with a slightly different cast). Hartmut Haenchen did something even more "experimental": instead of the Leonore III, he played the last two movements of the Fifth Symphony. Sounds bizarre, but it kinda worked.  ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 12, 2021, 11:10:42 AM
It was apparently very common in the first half of the 20th century in Germany/Austria. IIRC Riezler suggests in his Beethoven book to cut the orchestral intro to the finale if the ouverture is played before because the brilliant coda would weaken the effect of the intro anyway. As I said, I think it is too long in any case, especially within the 2nd act and although I love the short Fidelio ouverture and I think it fits best with the final (standard) version of the opera, if one insists on Leonore III it seems best as an actual ouverture and  then one has to accept the tonal contrast with the first duet. Or one edits the dialogue to have a bit of bickering before the singing starts... ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 12, 2021, 05:36:46 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on October 11, 2021, 07:52:12 AM
The second finale fits the quartet actually better by not being a gigantic fugue but more in line with the divertimento-like movements 3 and 4 but it is of course less impressive than the fugue (almost anything is).

Completely agree. I am very much in favour of keeping the fugue separate. Just like Beethoven actually wanted.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 13, 2021, 11:01:20 PM
All this stuff about what Beethoven "actually" wanted vs what he originally wanted...

He only changed his mind cos he was so forward-thinking the people at the time didn't get his music. With the Grosse Fuge as finale we have the chamber music equivalent of the Ninth Symphony, an all-time epic creation of humanity. It also makes for a great bookending with the almost-equally-lengthy first movement, but appropriately the finale is a significant amount longer.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on October 14, 2021, 01:06:57 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 12, 2021, 05:36:46 PM
Completely agree. I am very much in favour of keeping the fugue separate. Just like Beethoven actually wanted.

Obviously that is not what Beethoven wanted. In his mind the Fugue = the finale of 130.

However, he also wanted the damn thing sold and performed, so he compromised.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on October 14, 2021, 01:12:13 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 13, 2021, 11:01:20 PM
All this stuff about what Beethoven "actually" wanted vs what he originally wanted...

He only changed his mind cos he was so forward-thinking the people at the time didn't get his music. With the Grosse Fuge as finale we have the chamber music equivalent of the Ninth Symphony, an all-time epic creation of humanity. It also makes for a great bookending with the almost-equally-lengthy first movement, but appropriately the finale is a significant amount longer.

I tend to agree with this. I would certainly love to listen to the work like this in performance. And then, ideally, the new finale as an encore.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2021, 03:19:42 AM
It's an almost unique case. We know how in several pieces Beethoven changed movements or made other changes before the first performances (most famous the replacement of the "Andante favori" by the "introduzion" in the Waldstein sonata. We also have several versions of Leonore/Fidelio (and almost always take the last version for Beethoven's preferred). I think op.130+133 is the only case with such a big change from first performance to publication. We also know that Beethoven could be famously stubborn and was not easily persuaded to change things or make them easier for performers or listeners. It's basically a tie between Beethoven's "original intention" and his "final wishes", between first performance and publication, I don't see why one should obviously take precedence over the other.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 14, 2021, 05:09:37 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 13, 2021, 11:01:20 PM
He only changed his mind cos he was so forward-thinking the people at the time didn't get his music.

Evidence, please.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 14, 2021, 05:10:01 AM
Quote from: Herman on October 14, 2021, 01:06:57 AM
Obviously that is not what Beethoven wanted. In his mind the Fugue = the finale of 130.

However, he also wanted the damn thing sold and performed, so he compromised.

Evidence, please.

Given that the Grosse Fugue was itself published (hint: it has an opus number), the notion that it was necessary to remove the Grosse Fugue in order to achieve publication is frankly problematic.

There's this myth floating around that Beethoven was some kind of implacable visionary, who couldn't possibly change his mind for musical reasons, but as is shown above this myth is just contrary to the known facts about Beethoven. He did change his mind, in precisely the same way, on other occasions.

The andante favori is already mentioned. Let's add how the Kreutzer violin sonata includes a movement originally intended for a different violin sonata. There are plenty of much less famous examples, particularly from Beethoven's early career, but also within the late quartets there are cases of movements being planned for one quartet but then moved to another. Beethoven did lots of major revisions of works, and there are a considerable number of cases where that revision involves jettisoning an entire movement on the basis that it didn't fit with the work as a whole. Only with the Grosse Fugue do people suddenly start saying that no, it somehow wasn't in Beethoven's nature to change his original vision. It was in his nature, he did it lots of times, and removing movements is in fact highly characteristic of him.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2021, 05:24:44 AM
If Beethoven had remained stubborn, the piece would certainly have been published with the fugue. The publisher (and maybe Holz or some other friends) apparently used two main arguments to convince Beethoven: The difficult fugue would be more appreciated as separate piece, therefore also the 4 hand version. And he would get paid extra for another piece. This was not a large amount, I forgot the exact number but I read that it was roughly equivalent to Beethoven's expenses for one month, certainly not as much as a full additional quartet would have been paid for. It seems unlikely that the moderate amount of extra money would have easily swayed the usually stubborn composer. So we have to accept the possibility that he was convinced by the other argument.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 14, 2021, 05:28:51 AM
In fact op.130 is already a case of a quartet having a movement that wasn't originally meant for there. The 'alla danza tedesca' wasn't written for op.130, it was written as an option for op.132 and was in A major.

Beethoven decided not to use it in op.132. He ended up transposing it into G major to use it in op.130.

And people don't blink an eyelid at that, but insist that the Grosse Fugue is sacrosanct! And this is only talking about the things that were complete movements, not the sketches and ideas that didn't work out in their first home and got re-used later (there's one of those in op.130 as well).

As far as I'm concerned, the musical arguments for the replacement finale make perfect sense, and that's exactly why I adopted Jo498's original comment on that aspect. And the reason that I asserted this is what Beethoven wanted is because I think Beethoven was a great musician and, quite frankly, I find it puzzling that people don't hear how much better the replacement finale fits the mood and tone of the rest of the work.  The Fugue isn't kept for musical reasons, it's kept for ideological ones about what kind of music is suitably "Beethovenian". An ideology that has frequently left all of the lighter music that Beethoven wrote, throughout his entire career, out in the cold in favour of his most dramatic and towering works.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on October 14, 2021, 08:44:08 AM
Quote from: Madiel on October 14, 2021, 05:28:51 AM
I think Beethoven was a great musician and, quite frankly, I find it puzzling that people don't hear how much better the replacement finale fits the mood and tone of the rest of the work.  The Fugue isn't kept for musical reasons, it's kept for ideological ones about what kind of music is suitably "Beethovenian". An ideology that has frequently left all of the lighter music that Beethoven wrote, throughout his entire career, out in the cold in favour of his most dramatic and towering works.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/UTT6QbG4EPOIE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e474koo1eiwl94xpgjm5mg1bh6mspub7vs8qw1l6l8n&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2021, 09:01:26 AM
Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2021, 08:44:08 AM
QuoteQuote from: Madiel on Today at 08:28:51 AM
I think Beethoven was a great musician and, quite frankly, I find it puzzling that people don't hear how much better the replacement finale fits the mood and tone of the rest of the work.  The Fugue isn't kept for musical reasons, it's kept for ideological ones about what kind of music is suitably "Beethovenian". An ideology that has frequently left all of the lighter music that Beethoven wrote, throughout his entire career, out in the cold in favour of his most dramatic and towering works.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/UTT6QbG4EPOIE/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e474koo1eiwl94xpgjm5mg1bh6mspub7vs8qw1l6l8n&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

+1  +  +1  ;)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on October 14, 2021, 11:30:36 AM
My evidence is the entirety of human history. It's littered with people who were so forward-thinking their work wasn't fully understood for decades afterward.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2021, 12:17:16 PM
But this is neither here nor there. The fugue was not thrown into the bin. It was just published separately, arguably getting more attention by receiving its own opus number.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 14, 2021, 12:37:46 PM
What are some great standalone performances of the Große Fuge, in transcriptions for ensembles other than string quartet? I'm curious now...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: André on October 14, 2021, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2021, 12:37:46 PM
What are some great standalone performances of the Große Fuge, in transcriptions for ensembles other than string quartet? I'm curious now...

Well, it's been played for full string sections countless times by every major orchestra. It was especially revered as a standalone piece in Germany. A friend of mine who is obsessed by the piece downloaded and burned on CD a dozen historical versions for my enjoyment. Let's say that I found that too much of a good thing... ;D.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 14, 2021, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 14, 2021, 11:30:36 AM
My evidence is the entirety of human history. It's littered with people who were so forward-thinking their work wasn't fully understood for decades afterward.

See above. That's not evidence, that really IS ideology.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on October 14, 2021, 02:57:20 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 14, 2021, 12:37:46 PM
What are some great standalone performances of the Große Fuge, in transcriptions for ensembles other than string quartet? I'm curious now...
I ignore most non-string-quartet performances of the Große Fuge but Adolf Busch's string ensemble recording is very good, and I've also picked up several versions of Beethoven's own arrangement for piano four hands (Op. 134) of which I'm not sure which is the best. Duo Koroliov and Peter Hill/Benjamin Frith are the two I've listened to most often, but the latter was a recent release and thus probably shows up more often in my listening history for that reason.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 14, 2021, 05:48:55 PM
There is something where we all concur with: the Grosse Fuge is an authentic masterpiece.

Just heard the performance with the Melos Quartett on DG. No matter if some people claim it's an "ugly" work. For me, it's Beethoven at his most neurotic, rigurous, tense, gesticulating. The way he provides calm in the right moments is quite assertive. Tension-relaxation symbiosis with expert craftsmanship. I can't get enough of it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: krummholz on October 15, 2021, 04:38:40 AM
I think it may depend on one's take on the rest of the quartet as a whole. Movements II and IV, and for some, III as well, are more divertimento-like and the "official" finale is certainly more in keeping with the character of those movements. For me, those movements are there for contrast and perspective, and the "essential" movements are I, III, and V. So how does one balance the promise of those movements - especially I and V (the famous Cavatina)? For me it has nothing to do with ideology - the "official" finale just doesn't cut it IMHO and sounds more like a dismissive, even somewhat ironic rounding off of the work. The Grosse Fuge is admittedly almost TOO much - but with that piece as the finale the work as a whole has IMO better balance and, as someone said, even an "epic" dimension.

YMMV as always!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on October 15, 2021, 03:18:47 PM
The Grosse Fuge merges the "light" and "heavy" styles with great mastery, I think—the first few minutes are pure récherché contrapuntal writing, the "Meno mosso e moderato" retains the counterpoint but in a more amiable, conversational style recalling the third movement, the Allegro molto e vivace then presents a straight up "Turkish march" in 6/8 with minimal counterpoint, immediately plunges back into another intense récherché fugue in A-flat major, etc. By the end one does feel that the contradictions and disorientations of the quartet have been in some way transcended, with the very last section of the coda presenting both fugue subjects in the rhythm of the march and allowing them to yield to a (semi-)traditional series of cadential figures.

The replacement finale is not really a light throwback; it is still one of the longest and most complex finales to a Beethoven quartet (493 bars; only the GF at 741 bars is longer). It only appears small by comparison with the GF. The main "problem" with it for listeners is that it doesn't attempt to solve the inherent dissociation of the piece, but rather heightens it; not bothering to integrate the various styles, instead introducing all kinds of new disruptions (e.g. its own section in A-flat which is "resolved", rather than through modulation, simply by being played again in E-flat and then B-flat—not a real resolution at all, in that sense; also all the extended contrapuntal interludes that intrude on the sonata-rondo structure, and whatever the hell is happening in bars 215-223) which continue all the way to the pianissimo fermata on the last sixteenth note of the antepenultimate bar. In this sense it creates an "open" ending similar to those in Op. 131 and, to a lesser extent, 135, one where the music is destabilised to the extent that any ending feels arbitrary.

It does create essentially two different versions of the piece—in the version with the Grosse Fuge, the weight of the work falls entirely on the finale, which then requires an extremely convincing performance. (The best performance of Op. 130/133 I know of is the Hagen Quartet's recording on DG.) In the version with the replacement finale, the weight of the work is largely carried by the Cavatina, which admittedly is easier to pull off. (Two exemplary performances of Op. 130 without the GF: the Belcea Quartet on Zig-Zag/Alpha, which plays the Cavatina very slowly and sadly (as Beethoven probably intended), and the Leipzig Quartet on MDG, which plays it passionately and urgently.) One notable ensemble, the Elias Quartet, recorded both versions of Op. 130 on different volumes of their cycle, though the extent to which they succeed at giving the performances different characterisation is subjective. Their style is vibrato-heavy with frequent use of portamento, and prone to very slow tempi, so it will not be to the taste of all listeners, but is worth some exploration I think.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2021, 01:32:54 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 15, 2021, 04:38:40 AM
I think it may depend on one's take on the rest of the quartet as a whole. Movements II and IV, and for some, III as well, are more divertimento-like and the "official" finale is certainly more in keeping with the character of those movements. For me, those movements are there for contrast and perspective, and the "essential" movements are I, III, and V. So how does one balance the promise of those movements - especially I and V (the famous Cavatina)? For me it has nothing to do with ideology - the "official" finale just doesn't cut it IMHO and sounds more like a dismissive, even somewhat ironic rounding off of the work. The Grosse Fuge is admittedly almost TOO much - but with that piece as the finale the work as a whole has IMO better balance and, as someone said, even an "epic" dimension.

YMMV as always!  :)

This is an argument I can respect, even if I don't agree with it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: krummholz on October 16, 2021, 07:27:20 AM
Quote from: amw on October 15, 2021, 03:18:47 PM
The replacement finale is not really a light throwback; it is still one of the longest and most complex finales to a Beethoven quartet (493 bars; only the GF at 741 bars is longer). It only appears small by comparison with the GF. The main "problem" with it for listeners is that it doesn't attempt to solve the inherent dissociation of the piece, but rather heightens it; not bothering to integrate the various styles, instead introducing all kinds of new disruptions (e.g. its own section in A-flat which is "resolved", rather than through modulation, simply by being played again in E-flat and then B-flat—not a real resolution at all, in that sense; also all the extended contrapuntal interludes that intrude on the sonata-rondo structure, and whatever the hell is happening in bars 215-223) which continue all the way to the pianissimo fermata on the last sixteenth note of the antepenultimate bar. In this sense it creates an "open" ending similar to those in Op. 131 and, to a lesser extent, 135, one where the music is destabilised to the extent that any ending feels arbitrary.

Interesting take (and in-depth analysis!) on the replacement finale! Admittedly it has been literally decades since I listened to that finale and must revisit it soon... thanks for the thoughtful post.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 16, 2021, 09:04:53 AM
Quote from: amw on October 15, 2021, 03:18:47 PM
The Grosse Fuge merges the "light" and "heavy" styles with great mastery, I think—the first few minutes are pure récherché contrapuntal writing, the "Meno mosso e moderato" retains the counterpoint but in a more amiable, conversational style recalling the third movement, the Allegro molto e vivace then presents a straight up "Turkish march" in 6/8 with minimal counterpoint, immediately plunges back into another intense récherché fugue in A-flat major, etc. By the end one does feel that the contradictions and disorientations of the quartet have been in some way transcended, with the very last section of the coda presenting both fugue subjects in the rhythm of the march and allowing them to yield to a (semi-)traditional series of cadential figures.

The replacement finale is not really a light throwback; it is still one of the longest and most complex finales to a Beethoven quartet (493 bars; only the GF at 741 bars is longer). It only appears small by comparison with the GF. The main "problem" with it for listeners is that it doesn't attempt to solve the inherent dissociation of the piece, but rather heightens it; not bothering to integrate the various styles, instead introducing all kinds of new disruptions (e.g. its own section in A-flat which is "resolved", rather than through modulation, simply by being played again in E-flat and then B-flat—not a real resolution at all, in that sense; also all the extended contrapuntal interludes that intrude on the sonata-rondo structure, and whatever the hell is happening in bars 215-223) which continue all the way to the pianissimo fermata on the last sixteenth note of the antepenultimate bar. In this sense it creates an "open" ending similar to those in Op. 131 and, to a lesser extent, 135, one where the music is destabilised to the extent that any ending feels arbitrary.

It does create essentially two different versions of the piece—in the version with the Grosse Fuge, the weight of the work falls entirely on the finale, which then requires an extremely convincing performance. (The best performance of Op. 130/133 I know of is the Hagen Quartet's recording on DG.) In the version with the replacement finale, the weight of the work is largely carried by the Cavatina, which admittedly is easier to pull off. (Two exemplary performances of Op. 130 without the GF: the Belcea Quartet on Zig-Zag/Alpha, which plays the Cavatina very slowly and sadly (as Beethoven probably intended), and the Leipzig Quartet on MDG, which plays it passionately and urgently.) One notable ensemble, the Elias Quartet, recorded both versions of Op. 130 on different volumes of their cycle, though the extent to which they succeed at giving the performances different characterisation is subjective. Their style is vibrato-heavy with frequent use of portamento, and prone to very slow tempi, so it will not be to the taste of all listeners, but is worth some exploration I think.

Thank you for this.

When I was new to this music I thought that the GF was the only legitimate ending for Op 130, but lately I've come to love the replacement finale and tend to prefer it as the finale of the quartet.

Regarding the unusual structure of the Op 130 finale, I think there are other examples of Beethoven departing from the traditional Sonata Allegro structure this way, such as the first movement of Op 132.

I find it unfathomable that the Artemis Quartet goes beyond placing the GF as the finale of Op 130, but does not record the replacement finale of Op 130 at all. It is the last movement that Beethoven wrote for string quartet, at the height of his powers, and an extraordinary piece of music. (The same for the Quatuor Mosaiques.)

Quote from: amw on October 14, 2021, 02:57:20 PM
I ignore most non-string-quartet performances of the Große Fuge but Adolf Busch's string ensemble recording is very good, and I've also picked up several versions of Beethoven's own arrangement for piano four hands (Op. 134) of which I'm not sure which is the best. Duo Koroliov and Peter Hill/Benjamin Frith are the two I've listened to most often, but the latter was a recent release and thus probably shows up more often in my listening history for that reason.

I think I have that Adolf Busch recording in a box set. I like Furtwangler's live recording with the WPO as well. I must find one of those four hand piano arrangements you mention.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 31, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Astounded is a frequent epithet when referring to Beethoven. I rediscovered the Fantasia for piano, soloists, chorus, and orchestra and it is a masterwork in its own right. Symphony No. 9 meets Piano Concerto No. 3, I couldn't help myself, uplifting and well-crafted work.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 01, 2022, 05:56:51 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 31, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Astounded is a frequent epithet when referring to Beethoven. I rediscovered the Fantasia for piano, soloists, chorus, and orchestra and it is a masterwork in its own right. Symphony No. 9 meets Piano Concerto No. 3, I couldn't help myself, uplifting and well-crafted work.

I prefer the Fantasia to both.  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 01, 2022, 05:48:22 PM
Quote from: Florestan on January 01, 2022, 05:56:51 AM
I prefer the Fantasia to both.  ;D

Really? Oh, that's something else. I did find alluring the motif pre-Symphony No. 9, in a more cheerful Ode-to-joy, more unbuttoned as you say.  :)

The piano part is also a stroke of a genius. Singular and enjoyable piece!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on January 06, 2022, 03:13:40 AM
I might have asked this before, but does anyone have recommendations for the wind octet (op.103) or the wind sextet (op.71)?

I know there are at least some albums that combine the two - it's a pretty obvious combination given the forces involved - and sometimes the smaller pieces that are also for octet or sextet (one each).

A couple of examples I've spotted, but I've no idea about the performances:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODY2ODUwMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NzQxNjAxODN9) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQwMDA0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MTU0NTk3ODh9)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 20, 2022, 09:26:08 AM
Today, starting on my Beethoven collection w/ a LOT of multiple versions that I'd like to cull out a few?  ::)

But already in trouble w/ the Cello Sonatas - just listening to a disc of each set and looking at reviews (attached for those interested) - Levin on a fortepiano, the middle two on modern instruments, and then Orkis & Hardy doing both PI and MI - there are so many excellent old and new recordings of these works that there are plenty to pick and hard to choose! - Dave :)

(https://img.discogs.com/xaiYifNYjUtcXKTdB6e6FwTMeuM=/fit-in/550x550/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-12987805-1545960493-4795.png.jpg)  (https://img.discogs.com/50V9Ob2oy3OfR6DaFZGzYDfSr78=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(webp):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-17825908-1615658659-4833.jpeg.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81qsirrBJ1L._SS500_.jpg)  (https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59e4eb2464b05f0cfcc0e79c/1533310809125-AT0OKEE7KPTAOGJC3ZFN/DSL-90910_Beethoven_Front_RGB.jpg?format=1500w)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2022, 09:42:15 AM
Piano Concertos - Fortepiano Versions - own only 3 sets of these works, 2 on FPs and 1 on a modern instrument w/ Paul Lewis - today listening to Steven Lubin vs. Gottlieb Wallisch (a recent acquisition) - can I cull out one?  The Lubin concerto recordings date to 1987 w/ Hogwood - 3 Piano Sonatas were added later to 'fill out' the 3 discs - Lubin's instrument(s) is not discussed in the notes.  The Wallfisch date to 2017-2020 and the 'filler' is the Piano Concerto, Op. 61a (Beethoven's transcription of his Violin Concerto); he uses 3 different FPs (including a Conrad Graf owned by Beethoven).  Well, despite its age the Lubin recordings were quite good and decided to keep both sets (reviews attached which are scant).

As to recordings on a modern instrument, I have the Paul Lewis set done recently - could add another recording and was thinking of Murray Perahia w/ Haitink - so, any thoughts would be appreciated - there are so many options available.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZJCSC1vqL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61JIFn7lj0L._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41Env0nepXL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71RIoowegwL._SL1500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on March 07, 2022, 11:52:46 AM
The recent Currentzis/Musica Aeterna Beethoven 9 from Athens, available for streaming here:  https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/107891-000-A/beethoven-s-symphony-no-9/ (https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/107891-000-A/beethoven-s-symphony-no-9/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on May 07, 2022, 07:42:58 AM
Just finishing the Diabelli Variations for the first time. Underwhelmed by the lack of movement outside of C major for the most part. It's like Bolero over 100 years before and superexpanded
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2022, 07:48:14 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 07, 2022, 07:42:58 AM
Just finishing the Diabelli Variations for the first time. Underwhelmed by the lack of movement outside of C major for the most part. It's like Bolero over 100 years before and superexpanded

*chortle*
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 08, 2022, 08:30:59 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 07, 2022, 07:42:58 AM
Just finishing the Diabelli Variations for the first time. Underwhelmed by the lack of movement outside of C major for the most part. It's like Bolero over 100 years before and superexpanded
Were you also underwhelmed by so much G major in the Goldberg variations...? It's part of the convention that variations remain mostly in the same key, Brahms still sticks to this in his Handel variations. In fact, Beethoven experimented once with the strongest possible deviation, having each in a different key in his underrated variations op.34, but he returned to mostly home key in op.35 and op.120.

If you found the Diabellis "minimalist", i.e. with only trivial variations like Bolero or maybe Handel's Blacksmith, you might be the first person to think so.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: LKB on May 08, 2022, 09:19:40 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2022, 09:42:15 AM
Piano Concertos - Fortepiano Versions - own only 3 sets of these works, 2 on FPs and 1 on a modern instrument w/ Paul Lewis - today listening to Steven Lubin vs. Gottlieb Wallisch (a recent acquisition) - can I cull out one?  The Lubin concerto recordings date to 1987 w/ Hogwood - 3 Piano Sonatas were added later to 'fill out' the 3 discs - Lubin's instrument(s) is not discussed in the notes.  The Wallfisch date to 2017-2020 and the 'filler' is the Piano Concerto, Op. 61a (Beethoven's transcription of his Violin Concerto); he uses 3 different FPs (including a Conrad Graf owned by Beethoven).  Well, despite its age the Lubin recordings were quite good and decided to keep both sets (reviews attached which are scant).

As to recordings on a modern instrument, I have the Paul Lewis set done recently - could add another recording and was thinking of Murray Perahia w/ Haitink - so, any thoughts would be appreciated - there are so many options available.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZJCSC1vqL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61JIFn7lj0L._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41Env0nepXL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71RIoowegwL._SL1500_.jpg)

I used to own the Perahia/Haitink set, but sold it while l was unemployed and homeless a few years ago since you can't eat CDs.

As l recall, the Second and Fourth concertos were very good, not HIP but well recorded and executed.  The rest not so much, with the Emperor being the biggest disappointment.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Olias on May 08, 2022, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2022, 09:42:15 AM
Piano Concertos - Fortepiano Versions - own only 3 sets of these works, 2 on FPs and 1 on a modern instrument w/ Paul Lewis - today listening to Steven Lubin vs. Gottlieb Wallisch (a recent acquisition) - can I cull out one?  The Lubin concerto recordings date to 1987 w/ Hogwood - 3 Piano Sonatas were added later to 'fill out' the 3 discs - Lubin's instrument(s) is not discussed in the notes.  The Wallfisch date to 2017-2020 and the 'filler' is the Piano Concerto, Op. 61a (Beethoven's transcription of his Violin Concerto); he uses 3 different FPs (including a Conrad Graf owned by Beethoven).  Well, despite its age the Lubin recordings were quite good and decided to keep both sets (reviews attached which are scant).

As to recordings on a modern instrument, I have the Paul Lewis set done recently - could add another recording and was thinking of Murray Perahia w/ Haitink - so, any thoughts would be appreciated - there are so many options available.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41ZJCSC1vqL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61JIFn7lj0L._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41Env0nepXL.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71RIoowegwL._SL1500_.jpg)

Ooooooooo I love the Lubin cycle.  It's desert island stuff for me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on May 08, 2022, 07:33:40 PM
Quote from: LKB on May 08, 2022, 09:19:40 AM
I used to own the Perahia/Haitink set, but sold it while l was unemployed and homeless a few years ago since you can't eat CDs.

As l recall, the Second and Fourth concertos were very good, not HIP but well recorded and executed.  The rest not so much, with the Emperor being the biggest disappointment.

Perahia is the only set I have and I'm not wild about the Emperor either. I was never sure how much was the music rather than the performance... very happy with the 3rd and 4th though.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: LKB on May 08, 2022, 08:16:42 PM
Quote from: Madiel on May 08, 2022, 07:33:40 PM
Perahia is the only set I have and I'm not wild about the Emperor either. I was never sure how much was the music rather than the performance... very happy with the 3rd and 4th though.

Yup, I misspoke, I thought the C Minor was no.2, my bad.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on May 09, 2022, 01:44:45 AM
Just a snip from Daniel Chua's book on the Galitzin quartets, because it makes a point point about repetition of Bach in Beethoven which is interesting I think


(https://i.ibb.co/Xb13Sph/Capture.jpg)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on May 09, 2022, 02:25:12 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on May 08, 2022, 08:30:59 AM
Were you also underwhelmed by so much G major in the Goldberg variations...? It's part of the convention that variations remain mostly in the same key, Brahms still sticks to this in his Handel variations. In fact, Beethoven experimented once with the strongest possible deviation, having each in a different key in his underrated variations op.34, but he returned to mostly home key in op.35 and op.120.

If you found the Diabellis "minimalist", i.e. with only trivial variations like Bolero or maybe Handel's Blacksmith, you might be the first person to think so.

I've never heard the Goldberg's...not a Bach fan. I'll stick with the Rzewski in the holy trinity of piano variations.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: staxomega on May 11, 2022, 06:05:51 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 09, 2022, 02:25:12 AM
I'll stick with the Rzewski in the holy trinity of piano variations.

You're speaking my language 8) Though I think I'd still take Diabelli Variations over People United if forced to choose. Rzewski playing it vs some performances I don't like in Diabellis would easily tip me to the latter.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 11, 2022, 10:54:17 PM
Beethoven forgot to include a whistling part for the pianist (he probably expected this as an improvisation) but Staier with his historical instrument has a (IMO silly) percussion effect in one or two variations.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on May 17, 2022, 01:08:37 PM
In a few days I'll have all the standard works in the three great cycles Beethoven is primarily known for. Having had the nine symphonies since 2007, today I completed adding the 32 piano sonatas to my collection and I ordered the last string quartet I have to complete that set of 16.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Maestro267 on May 18, 2022, 12:33:02 AM
What are some of your favourites among the lesser-known Piano Sonatas? I've really taken a shine to No. 5 in C minor, Op. 10/1 and No. 12 in A flat, Op. 26.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: krummholz on May 18, 2022, 03:49:37 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 18, 2022, 12:33:02 AM
What are some of your favourites among the lesser-known Piano Sonatas? I've really taken a shine to No. 5 in C minor, Op. 10/1 and No. 12 in A flat, Op. 26.

No. 7 in D major - especially the very impressive D minor slow movement.
No. 22 in F major
No. 31 in A flat
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Wanderer on May 18, 2022, 07:02:43 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 18, 2022, 12:33:02 AM
What are some of your favourites among the lesser-known Piano Sonatas? I've really taken a shine to No. 5 in C minor, Op. 10/1 and No. 12 in A flat, Op. 26.

Op. 26 is a great favourite. The first movement is among Beethoven's most delightful theme-and-variations creations. If I remember correctly, it was also a favourite of Chopin.

I'm also very fond of (in no order of preference) Opp. 22, 2/3, 28 (is it considered lesser known?), 101 (again, if it can be considered lesser known), 90, 2/1 (imagine my joy when I heard it being played a few years ago at Capodimonte Museum in Naples out of the blue - there was a pianist playing a concert grand in one of the state rooms and music was echoing throughout the palace: Scarlatti, Chopin... and the finale of Beethoven's Op. 2/1). I assume none of the magisterial last four sonatas is considered lesser-known territory. The infectiously fun last movements of Opp. 81a and 31/3 are also great favourites.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on May 18, 2022, 07:56:12 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2022, 09:42:15 AMAs to recordings on a modern instrument, I have the Paul Lewis set done recently - could add another recording and was thinking of Murray Perahia w/ Haitink - so, any thoughts would be appreciated - there are so many options available.


A bit late, but I suggest Oliver Schynder paired with James Gaffigan.  Superb performances with one of the best sounding pianos I've heard in a cycle.  (1920s era pianos, of different makes, often sound great for some unknown reason.)  There are many other good modern cycles, but Pollini with Abbado is very fine overall, though the Emperor with Bohm is better; Russell Sherman with Vaclav Neumann is superb; Lars Vogt and Leif Ove Andnes both deliver good cycles directing from the keyboard; and Mitsuko Uchida with Rattle is better than I initially expected, as well. 

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91W8J5qyqIL._SY425_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2022, 10:13:47 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on May 18, 2022, 12:33:02 AM
What are some of your favourites among the lesser-known Piano Sonatas? I've really taken a shine to No. 5 in C minor, Op. 10/1 and No. 12 in A flat, Op. 26.
If I count anything without a (nick)name except the last 3 as lesser known, make sure to try
op.2,2+3 (2+3)
op.10,1-3 (5-7)
op.14,1+2 (9+10)
op.90 (27)
op.101 (28)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Symphonic Addict on July 04, 2022, 06:12:50 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71YnHrpQyZL._SS500_.jpg)

Beethoven's violin sonatas are rather underrated if compared with others combinations of forces or forms. I'm listening to the No. 4 in A minor, Op. 23. The 1st movement alone is a mini-masterpiece. Expert craftsmanship. It's also interesting because of its unexpected soft ending (so are in the other movements). A touch of genius. Sublime music sublimely played, btw!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2022, 12:48:19 PM
During the Queen's funeral today a rather imposing march was played (several times). The announcer said that it was the 'Funeral March No.1' by Beethoven. However, there are other suggestions that it was composed by Johann Heinrich Walch or possibly Walch's arrangement of Beethoven's march. Any clarification please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF71TKKgcwY
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: JBS on September 19, 2022, 06:32:41 PM
This from Classic FM
https://amp.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/walch-funeral-march-royal-family-remembrance-sunday/

Walch's connection to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha suggests it came to the UK via Prince Albert.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2022, 11:02:21 PM
Quote from: JBS on September 19, 2022, 06:32:41 PM
This from Classic FM
https://amp.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/walch-funeral-march-royal-family-remembrance-sunday/

Walch's connection to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha suggests it came to the UK via Prince Albert.
That's really helpful Jeffrey - thanks so much.
They are right in that there appears to be no CD recording featuring the march, which is strange as it is often performed at state/solemn occasions.
Thanks again
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: aukhawk on September 20, 2022, 12:54:31 AM
Other parts of the music sounded like a Mahler mashup to me - lifted from the opening of Symphony No.5. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vandermolen on September 20, 2022, 07:55:59 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on September 20, 2022, 12:54:31 AM
Other parts of the music sounded like a Mahler mashup to me - lifted from the opening of Symphony No.5.
Yes, I thought at one point that the military band was about to launch into Mahler's 5th Symphony!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: gprengel on September 23, 2022, 01:15:07 AM
I just finished a wonderful new project. Around 1803 Beethoven sketched 5 marches (Biamonti 381). 4 of them were realised recently by Italian musicologist G. Demini as marches for piano and I together with a friend orchestrated now all 5 marches - I love them and I hope you will too!


http://www.gerdprengel.de/Beeth_Biamonti_381-1_orch.mp3

http://www.gerdprengel.de/Beeth_Biamonti_381-2_orch.mp3

http://www.gerdprengel.de/Beeth_Biamonti_381-3_orch.mp3

http://www.gerdprengel.de/Beeth_Biamonti_381-4_orch.mp3

http://www.gerdprengel.de/Beeth_Biamonti_381-5_orch.mp3

Gerd
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on September 23, 2022, 11:54:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 20, 2022, 07:55:59 AM
Yes, I thought at one point that the military band was about to launch into Mahler's 5th Symphony!

I have only seen a couple minutes when the procession was on the Long Walk road towards Windsor Castle and I thought I heard the funeral march from Chopin's 2nd sonata.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on September 23, 2022, 10:17:11 PM
Quote from: Herman on September 23, 2022, 11:54:48 AM
I have only seen a couple minutes when the procession was on the Long Walk road towards Windsor Castle and I thought I heard the funeral march from Chopin's 2nd sonata.

You would have, yes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on October 20, 2022, 02:58:48 AM
Anyone care to recommend me a great Beethoven Lieder recital disc? His Lieder are amazing, and kind of slept on.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
Does anyone know anything of any plans to issue a PI complete Beethoven SQs.

Seems like a no-brainer to me, but AFAIK the Rasumosky's have never been recorded on PI, the Op 18 only partly. The Mosaiques are brilliant in the late quartets, but they don't do the alternative finale to Op 130 :-(
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2022, 08:23:15 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
Does anyone know anything of any plans to issue a PI complete Beethoven SQs.

Seems like a no-brainer to me, but AFAIK the Rasumosky's have never been recorded on PI, the Op 18 only partly. The Mosaiques are brilliant in the late quartets, but they don't do the alternative finale to Op 130 :-(
Yes. The Chiaroscuro Quartet on BIS intends to record the complete cycle. It may take 5-7 more years. They are proceeding in order and Op. 18 is complete.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2022, 11:10:37 PM
Great  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 05, 2022, 01:08:03 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
Does anyone know anything of any plans to issue a PI complete Beethoven SQs.

Seems like a no-brainer to me, but AFAIK the Rasumosky's have never been recorded on PI, the Op 18 only partly. The Mosaiques are brilliant in the late quartets, but they don't do the alternative finale to Op 130 :-(

The op.18 has at least four complete HIP recordings, one with the Smithsonian Qt. more than 30 years ago, another with the Turner Quartet, another with the Mosaiques, the Chiaroscuro and there is probably more (pretty sure I have seen at least one more recent one). Some might be unavailable, though.

I am not aware of HIP recordings for op.59,1+2 and op.14 (and maybe the alternative finale of op.130). All the others have been recorded: 59/3 by Schuppanzigh, Turner, 74 by Turner, Eroica Qt. and op.95 by Chiaroscuro and Eroica.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 05, 2022, 01:19:16 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 20, 2022, 02:58:48 AM
Anyone care to recommend me a great Beethoven Lieder recital disc? His Lieder are amazing, and kind of slept on.

Stephan Genz/Roger Vignoles. At least I remember this as very good, having most of the better known ones and it is a modern recording.

[asin]B00FY3SXX4[/asin]

A great favorite of mine is the following although these are technically only arrangements by Beethoven as he was given the melodies by the publisher.

[asin]B00005NQ9F[/asin]

The only fault of this disc is that it's missing some of my favorites from these songs, especially "O sweet were the hours" from op.108

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7kjYxZyBfU

That's another good recital with Scottish/Irish songs

[asin]B01N045ENV[/asin]
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 05, 2022, 02:42:32 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2022, 05:02:53 PMSeems like a no-brainer to me, but AFAIK the Rasumosky's have never been recorded on PI, the Op 18 only partly. The Mosaiques are brilliant in the late quartets, but they don't do the alternative finale to Op 130 :-(

That is inexcusable to me. Even if you think the Grosse Fuge is a more fitting finale to Op 130, why exclude the last movement that Beethoven wrote for string quartet (and it is brilliant whether or not you think it should replace the Grosse Fuge). That, on top of ignoring Beethoven's final wishes. (Would Beethoven really agree to change a string quartet he wrote "for a future age" against his wishes?)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on November 05, 2022, 05:15:40 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on October 20, 2022, 02:58:48 AM
Anyone care to recommend me a great Beethoven Lieder recital disc? His Lieder are amazing, and kind of slept on.

About recent recordings of Beethoven's Lieder, the Goerne/Lisiecki set is really beautiful and atmospheric in my opinion.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71-P3x7lAgL._SL1400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 06, 2022, 01:23:48 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 05, 2022, 02:42:32 AM
That is inexcusable to me. Even if you think the Grosse Fuge is a more fitting finale to Op 130, why exclude the last movement that Beethoven wrote for string quartet (and it is brilliant whether or not you think it should replace the Grosse Fuge). That, on top of ignoring Beethoven's final wishes. (Would Beethoven really agree to change a string quartet he wrote "for a future age" against his wishes?)

I agree, when I listen to op130 I listen to movements 1-5, the GF, and (when I can) the alternative finale. I think that the effect of 5 movements of sublime inspiration followed by a wild piece of experimental music from the C24 that dropped through a worm hole into Beethoven's mind, followed by "Ahem, sorry about that, here's how we could end this quartet in this century...' is an effect not surpassed in any other piece of music I know.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: staxomega on November 13, 2022, 01:46:29 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 04, 2022, 05:02:53 PM
Does anyone know anything of any plans to issue a PI complete Beethoven SQs.

For me this is the major hole in the Beethoven catalog to not have a complete cycle of the SQs on PI. I found Mosaïques much preferable to Chiaroscuro in op. 18 except for number 2 where Chiaroscuro are quite good. But I find Mosaïques only average in their set of late quartets :(


Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 13, 2022, 10:57:37 PM
It's certainly a bit surprising that we had already 3 or 4 complete HIP recordings of all Beethoven symphonies 30 years ago and many more since then and other, often lesser known chamber music seems also to be covered better than string quartets. At least beyond op.18. One could assume that the weight of these works and their discography is a factor but that would apply to at least some other works as well.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 14, 2022, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 13, 2022, 10:57:37 PM
It's certainly a bit surprising that we had already 3 or 4 complete HIP recordings of all Beethoven symphonies 30 years ago and many more since then and other, often lesser known chamber music seems also to be covered better than string quartets. At least beyond op.18. One could assume that the weight of these works and their discography is a factor but that would apply to at least some other works as well.

I guess that people aren't so receptive to PI Beethoven SQs because they think 'Haydn, Mozart PI SQs, yes, but Beethoven is modern, so doesn't need PI'. I disagree, I think the wonderful sound of gut strings in the late quartets (slow movement of Op 132 for example reminding me of viols) is a revelation. Very keen to hear a PI Op 59 set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 14, 2022, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 14, 2022, 10:02:10 AM
I guess that people aren't so receptive to PI Beethoven SQs because they think 'Haydn, Mozart PI SQs, yes, but Beethoven is modern, so doesn't need PI'. I disagree, I think the wonderful sound of gut strings in the late quartets (slow movement of Op 132 for example reminding me of viols) is a revelation. Very keen to hear a PI Op 59 set.

I would be very anxious to hear PI performances of the Beethoven Quartets by an ensemble other than the Mosaïques. But I can see why the justification for PI in the late quartets is not as strong as for Mozart and Haydn. One of justifications for PI is that I find persuasive is that composers were writing to take advantage of the unique sonorities of the instruments available to them, and the music will not sound as the composer expected on modern instruments, even if the modern instruments are better. By the time we get to the late quartets, you could argue that Beethoven's hearing had been so bad for so long that he was effectively writing a more abstract ensemble. That said, I do like the sound of PI stringed instruments and would love to have to option of hearing the music performed both ways.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 14, 2022, 10:34:38 AM
I couldn't be bothered to get the Mosaiques late Beethoven. I do have the Turner and Smithsonian in op.18 and Schuppanzigh with op.18/4+59/3 (unfortunately two of my least favorite Beethoven quartets). So I am personally not really missing anything but I still find it surprising that there are so few.
In fact there are not that many Mozart PI string quartet recordings either, or the ones that exist (Mosaiques, Festetics) have gone out of print since years and not been reissued.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 14, 2022, 10:39:55 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 14, 2022, 10:34:38 AM
I couldn't be bothered to get the Mosaiques late Beethoven. I do have the Turner and Smithsonian in op.18 and Schuppanzigh with op.18/4+59/3 (unfortunately two of my least favorite Beethoven quartets). So I am personally not really missing anything but I still find it surprising that there are so few.
In fact there are not that many Mozart PI string quartet recordings either, or the ones that exist (Mosaiques, Festetics) have gone out of print since years and not been reissued.

Everything related by that record label goes out of print. There's also the Salomon Quartet recordings of late Mozart, which I guess is also available only as a download these days.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: staxomega on November 16, 2022, 01:25:24 PM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 14, 2022, 10:13:16 AM
I would be very anxious to hear PI performances of the Beethoven Quartets by an ensemble other than the Mosaïques. But I can see why the justification for PI in the late quartets is not as strong as for Mozart and Haydn. One of justifications for PI is that I find persuasive is that composers were writing to take advantage of the unique sonorities of the instruments available to them, and the music will not sound as the composer expected on modern instruments, even if the modern instruments are better. By the time we get to the late quartets, you could argue that Beethoven's hearing had been so bad for so long that he was effectively writing a more abstract ensemble. That said, I do like the sound of PI stringed instruments and would love to have to option of hearing the music performed both ways.

While his hearing would have been shot he would have known what the period tuning/bridge setup/strings sounded like and probably had a strong idea of what the quartets sounded like. You very rarely hear composers changing chamber music after it was performed, this seems to be much more common in symphony music which is more difficult to make out how it will sound with just something like a piano at their disposal.

Only playing devil's advocate ;D My preference is for modern instruments, but I'd love to have top tier performances of PI recordings for my favorite works. Op. 18 Mosaïques can easily hang with the best performances regardless of instrument. The late quartets face very stiff competition and don't live up to the top tier or probably even second tier for me.

edit: Aimard gave a series of concerts/talks on late Beethoven works. He said that he didn't think audiences of the time would have found Grosse Fuge that uncomfortable, which runs contrary to what I thought/what I've read. If anyone recalls more details of these talks please share.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 16, 2022, 11:24:48 PM
I have heard only one disc of the Mosaiques op.18 (1+4) but they were in fact the weakest of the PI recordings I have heard (Turner, Smithson, Schuppanzigh), mostly due to sluggish tempi and lack of energy. I also don't really think historical instruments are important in string quartets. That's another reason I didn't bother with the Mosaiques late quartets.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on November 17, 2022, 01:02:00 AM
Quote from: hvbias on November 16, 2022, 01:25:24 PM


edit: Aimard gave a series of concerts/talks on late Beethoven works. He said that he didn't think audiences of the time would have found Grosse Fuge that uncomfortable, which runs contrary to what I thought/what I've read. If anyone recalls more details of these talks please share.

I don't know about Aimard's talks but in general my feeling is the shall we say out-thereishness of the GF is sometimes overstated. Musicologists or music writers seem to have a real need for Bastille moments. Some people write about Haydn's opus 76 nr 6 as if it's atonal music. People tend to think the Rite's music totally flabbergasted the Paris audience, while in reality most of the cat calls were about Nijinski's desperately inept choreography.

So... the 133 fugue is performed pretty harshly often, which is not necessarily what Beethoven heard in his mind. Maybe it's just beautiful music, with big contrasts. If you just listen to the fugue without having all the writing about it in mind, it sounds totally good. There is a lot of marching in the opus 130's opening movement, and the fugue picks this up again. That's why it's the finale.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on November 17, 2022, 01:21:12 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 17, 2022, 01:02:00 AM
in general my feeling is the shall we say out-thereishness of the GF is sometimes overstated.

Because it fits nicely with the modern desire to put the Grosse Fugue back as the finale. There's a kind of belief (sometimes implicit, but often downright explicit) that the only reason Beethoven removed it and wrote a replacement finale was because contemporary audiences couldn't handle the GF, whereas we are so much better than they were and can handle the GF.

Of course I've indicated a number of times my own view that this line of thinking is bunkum. As a modern listener it took me precisely two listens to op.130 to hear what a huge difference the change in finales makes to the overall shape and weight of the piece.

Having said that... there is a fair amount of evidence of people reacting negatively to the GF over a long period of time before it was revered. The question is always how representative those negative views were. A person who can convey how much they hate or love a work in really picturesque language would always be remembered better (long before "social media" came along).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 17, 2022, 01:51:19 AM
The difference is that we have no documents of contemporaries being puzzled or irritated about Haydn's op.76 but plenty in the case of Beethoven. Not only op.133 of course. I think the "relativization" should rather progress by noting how irritated some contemporaries were about early and middle Beethoven, e.g. the violin sonatas op.12, probably the set of early Beethoven works (say up to op.18 or 22), I'd have naively picked as one of the least offensive for listeners used to Mozart and Haydn.
Or about many other works.
However, in the case of several late Beethoven works and especially op.133 it is also documented how difficult they were perceived (again, by some, not all commentators), even until the late 19th/early 20th century. With very few exceptions (such as the young Mendelssohn in his op.12+13) composers apparently also were not as directly "inspired" by late Beethoven quartets (and not really by the sonatas either, despite again a few works by Mendelssohn and Brahms' C major sonata), in stark contrast to middle period Beethoven.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on November 22, 2022, 11:22:02 PM
Pretty much every major late Beethoven work pushed the envelope in some way.
I mean, how fun is listening to the entire Hammerklavier sonata really?
Diabelli Variations  -  really do we need all of them, nearly an hour long?
So that's why the Grosse Fugue belongs in the op 130 quartet.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 23, 2022, 12:24:40 AM
I think both the Fugue alone and the op.130 with the alternative finale "push the envelope" sufficiently that a combination is not needed to achieve this feature.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on November 23, 2022, 01:58:52 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 22, 2022, 11:22:02 PMPretty much every major late Beethoven work pushed the envelope in some way.
I mean, how fun is listening to the entire Hammerklavier sonata really?
Diabelli Variations  -  really do we need all of them, nearly an hour long?
So that's why the Grosse Fugue belongs in the op 130 quartet.

I suspect you haven't been listening to the most suitable recordings...

I mean, my first album with the Hammerklavier lost me in the fugue. The second did not. It's bloody gripping.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scion7 on November 23, 2022, 03:24:53 AM
Quote from: Herman on November 22, 2022, 11:22:02 PMI mean, how fun is listening to the entire Hammerklavier sonata really?

With great satisfaction - an extremely brilliant composition.

Quote from: Herman on November 22, 2022, 11:22:02 PMDiabelli Variations  -  really do we need all of them, nearly an hour long?

Yes, we do.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 23, 2022, 03:43:33 AM
Quote from: Madiel on November 23, 2022, 01:58:52 AMI suspect you haven't been listening to the most suitable recordings...

I mean, my first album with the Hammerklavier lost me in the fugue. The second did not. It's bloody gripping.
I find op.106 slightly tougher to listen to than op.130. In both works the finale starts about 30 min. into the work but the huge slow movement is usually much longer (15-over 20 min) than any movement before the fugue in op.130, so one is already more drained emotionally and attention-span-wise and the op.106-fugue is shorter but not that much (ca. 12 vs. 15 min) and op.133 has more easily recognizable sections. But the first section of op.133 was one of the toughest listening experience I had with any pre-20th century music when I heard it for the first time.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: LKB on November 27, 2022, 07:32:31 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2022, 03:43:33 AMI find op.106 slightly tougher to listen to than op.130. In both works the finale starts about 30 min. into the work but the huge slow movement is usually much longer (15-over 20 min) than any movement before the fugue in op.130, so one is already more drained emotionally and attention-span-wise and the op.106-fugue is shorter but not that much (ca. 12 vs. 15 min) and op.133 has more easily recognizable sections. But the first section of op.133 was one of the toughest listening experience I had with any pre-20th century music when I heard it for the first time.

Opus 133 is magnificent, but it's also unconventional enough to be a tough nut for many listeners, even some who are otherwise comfortable with late Beethoven.

I believe l was fortunate in being exposed to the work via the Hollywood String Quartet recording. They had the technical chops needed to easily negotiate the jagged edges, as well as ample musicality when opportunities presented themselves.

I always recommend that recording to anyone curious about Op. 133.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on November 27, 2022, 07:54:06 AM
To put it in perspective, I was about 17 at the time and had only listened to classical music for about 2 years and I became rather fond of the piece within another 2 years or so.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: LKB on November 27, 2022, 07:58:44 AM
That makes sense, most listeners with that range of experience would be challenged.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Herman on November 27, 2022, 09:05:05 PM
I was an early 130 / 133 adopter, too.
My mother gave me a copy of the Lasalle SQ recording on vinyl for my eighteenth birthday. Next birthday I think I got 131.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: gprengel on December 15, 2022, 04:50:26 PM
Quote from: LKB on November 27, 2022, 07:32:31 AMOpus 133 is magnificent, but it's also unconventional enough to be a tough nut for many listeners, even some who are otherwise comfortable with late Beethoven...

Hi, I am curious of what you think of my orchestration for symphony orchestra of this work ... I can say that it has helped me tremendously to get a deeper love for this gigantic work!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: caters on December 28, 2022, 01:53:31 PM
When I was 10, even something like Beethoven's Fifth Symphony I was just like

QuoteThere's so much music here. But what's the purpose, it sounds all for naught. I can't understand it emotionally or musically. I don't like it.

I had a very negative view on Beethoven when I first tried listening to him and I started with the really well known "easy to get into" works like the Fifth Symphony and Moonlight Sonata. It pains me to say this now, but my favorite Beethoven work back then(and Beethoven was my least favorite composer at that time, like lower than Haydn, who was already pretty low) was probably Fur Elise. It's not that I hate Fur Elise now, I don't, it's just, my view has changed so darn much from

QuoteThis is more of that Classical Era, almost Mozartian easy listening.

to

QuoteThis is perhaps the least deserving of his bagatelles, I much prefer the C minor WoO 52.

Then as I did score studies of Beethoven, I started to understand him from a musical standpoint, like the motivic development and stuff. When I became a teenager, that was my pivot point as a listener. It started out with a craving for minor keys. I played in minor keys on the piano all the time cause I was in a minor key mood like you wouldn't believe if you saw me at 12 years old still binging Mozart's music like crazy.

At first, minor key Mozart, Chopin, and Bach was sufficient. But that did not last long, I felt the need for drama to a degree that I was not getting in Mozart, Chopin, and Bach. Now where was I going to find that drama I most desperately needed to satisfy myself? I shied away from opera cause my mom hates opera. I didn't really get into opera until just a couple years ago. And I did not feel any sort of urge or even an inclination to listen to sacred works like Bach's cantatas. I still don't. No, I was looking for something more like a dramatic sonata.

Then one day I searched "C minor concerto" on YouTube and can you guess what the first result was? Well, I was expecting Mozart cause I was like a huge Mozart fan, to the point that something like "Bb major String Quartet" would get me Mozart first thing even though tons of other composers also wrote string quartets in the key of Bb major. Now, did I know whether or not Mozart wrote a C minor concerto? No, not at that time, I was just expecting the first result to be Mozart. It wasn't, it was Beethoven.

I listened to the Beethoven concerto and was just blown away by how awesomely dramatic it was. So I then went searching for more minor key pieces by Beethoven in hopes of finding more of that drama. And I was not disappointed a few days later when I listened to the Pathetique and Appassionata sonatas. This concerto combined with the Pathetique and Appassionata sonatas(still to this day 2 of my favorite piano sonatas of his) is what made Beethoven go from least favorite to #1 on my list. It completely changed what I thought of works like the Fifth Symphony, which went from least favorite symphony to absolute favorite, and Moonlight Sonata. First late piece I heard of his was Grosse Fuge. And I loved it straight away. I guess my pre-existing love of Bach fugues prepared me for Grosse Fuge.

A few years later, I listened to Hammerklavier for the first time. And guess what, that same reaction I had to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony at 10 years old, I had to Hammerklavier at 18. I just gave some time and moved on to other pieces. A few years later, and I now love Hammerklavier, especially that fugue finale. But the late string quartets(outside of Grosse Fuge that is), I once again have that reaction of a dislike and lack of understanding. Late Beethoven is complicated, cause like some pieces I fall into love with straight away(Grosse Fuge, Op. 111 sonata) and others take years after first listening without listening to it to then love(Hammerklavier).

And what makes the difference between the ones I fall in love with straight away and the ones taking years I don't know entirely. Like I know my love of Bach's fugues had to do with me falling in love with Grosse Fuge, but was that the deciding factor? I don't know. Likewise, I know my love of the C minor key had to do with me falling in love with Op. 111 straight away, but was C minor the deciding factor? I don't know.

Whereas Early and Middle period Beethoven, I'm pretty much guaranteed to fall in love with upon first listening. My favorite works by Beethoven, honestly, it's tough for me to even say cause I just love so much. But the C minor pieces are definitely towards like the top of the top. I've heard like over 140 pieces of his, these to be exact:


And I'm only counting full listenings there, if you count partial as well, it's even more.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: amw on December 29, 2022, 11:50:56 PM
Quote from: LKB on November 27, 2022, 07:32:31 AMOpus 133 is magnificent, but it's also unconventional enough to be a tough nut for many listeners, even some who are otherwise comfortable with late Beethoven.
Honestly, I loved the Grosse Fuge the first time I heard it, and I was probably about eight or nine years old at the time. It took much longer to learn why most people considered it so inaccessible and difficult.

I think by the time even a teenager or young adult discovers the piece, let alone an older adult, they likely have more preconceived notions about what a piece of music "should" sound like and therefore find it more difficult. But that's partly just speculation on my part. Structurally it is quite arbitrary at times, and can give an unbalanced impression in performance due to being so heavily front-weighted, with the opening section being much more complex and physically exciting than the subsequent ones (the finale of the Hammerklavier also has this problem).

I started with the Budapest Quartet's mono recording (1952). I think these days I would recommend either the Arditti Quartet or the Hagen Quartet (their second recording, as the finale of Op. 130, not their first recording paired with the Schubert Quintet). But not both. I would also recommend people listen to the piano duet version, Op. 134, which some may find easier listening.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: caters on December 30, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: amw on December 29, 2022, 11:50:56 PMHonestly, I loved the Grosse Fuge the first time I heard it, and I was probably about eight or nine years old at the time. It took much longer to learn why most people considered it so inaccessible and difficult.

Same for me except the age, I was in my teenage years when I first listened to Grosse Fuge. But yeah, I too loved it from first listening. I loved Bach's fugues before that, so I think Bach like prepared me for Grosse Fuge. As to why I didn't listen to Grosse Fuge earlier, well, I just didn't care for Beethoven's music until I was in my teenage years. At 12 years old, I was still doing my Mozart binges of symphonies and stuff. It wasn't until I started really craving minor keys and drama as a teenager that I started to love Beethoven. And that love has just grown with every work of his that I hear.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on December 30, 2022, 12:00:20 PM
During my early teens, Beethoven was my favorite composer bar none, and his S7 was my favorite composition by anyone.

I have just turned 50 --- Beethoven is no more my favorite composer (Mozart is) and every time I overhear his S7 on car radio I turn it off. I prefer Beethoven's early period to his middle/late one any day and night.

EDIT: Beethoven makes it to my Top Ten only because of very sentimental reasons.  I can live whole months without listening to his music.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: caters on December 30, 2022, 12:14:24 PM
For me, as a child, my favorite composer would switch back and forth between Mozart and Chopin depending on my mood. Bach would be at #2 and Brahms or Tchaikovsky at #3. Beethoven stooped very low for me, like even below Haydn and I didn't exactly love Haydn either. But I just couldn't understand what was going on in Beethoven, musically or emotionally, and I felt I needed that to say that I loved their music. And it pains me to say this, but my favorite Beethoven work back then was probably Fur Elise.

As a teenager though, after that one day that I searched "C minor concerto" on YouTube and got Beethoven's PC 3 as the first search result, I was hooked on Beethoven, I started craving more Beethoven like crazy. Mozart became #2 and Bach #3. I can't say that I have a single favorite piece of his cause I just love his music too much, but I can say for sure that the top of the top, the cream of the crop for me, is his C minor pieces, PC 3, Symphony 5, Pathetique, Op. 111, etc.

And that's followed very closely by other minor key pieces like Appassionata, Symphony 9, Tempest etc. And then the more dramatic major key pieces like Symphony 3, Waldstein, Kreutzer etc. And then the more joyful like SQ 6, PS 3, Waltz in Eb etc.

Only piece of his that I can say I dislike is Symphony 1, it's just so underwhelming for me, especially since I heard the dramatic Symphonies 3, 5, and 9 years before I heard Symphony 1.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on December 30, 2022, 12:31:09 PM
My favorite Beethoven PC is No. 2.

In general, I love my Beethoven to be unbuttoned, not-serious, non-heroic, the-socialite-he-might-have-been-had-he-not-gone-deaf. Which means I love his early period, I like his middle period and I don't  much care for his late period.

My two cents: Beethoven, Bruckner and Mahler are for teenagers --- Mozart, Haydn and Schubert are for grownups, while Chopin is in a league of his own.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on December 30, 2022, 01:25:02 PM
Quote from: Florestan on December 30, 2022, 12:31:09 PMMy two cents: Beethoven, Bruckner and Mahler are for teenagers --- Mozart, Haydn and Schubert are for grownups, while Chopin is in a league of his own.

You're older. It's unclear whether you're wiser.  :P
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Daverz on December 30, 2022, 03:37:55 PM
Quote from: Florestan on December 30, 2022, 12:31:09 PMMy favorite Beethoven PC is No. 2.

You and Martha Argerich.  3 is probably still my favorite. 

QuoteMy two cents: Beethoven, Bruckner and Mahler are for teenagers

Well into my 20s I turned my nose up at Bruckner and Mahler as bloated, overwrought stuff.  Then I actually listened to their music.

EDIT: thinking back, I can now remember listening to Gunter Wand's NDR Bruckner 4 on cassette.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: caters on December 30, 2022, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Daverz on December 30, 2022, 03:37:55 PMYou and Martha Argerich.  3 is probably still my favorite. 

Same. Anything in C minor is likely to be a favorite of mine, by any composer, but especially Beethoven.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Madiel on December 30, 2022, 08:27:22 PM
I love PC no.4 more than anything. Number 3 isn't far behind though.

I don't really get the more widespread adoration for the 5th, and sometimes wonder whether I just need to hear the right version. The one I actually own is Perahia/Haitink, where at least some people think the Emperor is the one weaker performance in the set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on December 31, 2022, 01:36:44 AM
I think the "Emperor" might suffer a bit from overexposure. And the beginning and some passages of the first movement are in that representative/heroic mode that some people came to find clichéed. But the slow movement is really divine and the others are also great. The "2nd theme" of the first movement is more a complex with related themes that contrast wonderfully both with each other and the heroic main themes: first the minor with piano and pizzicato strings, than the horns and finally a heroic full orchestra that leads into the main theme. I rarely listen to the Emperor (admittedly, I don't listen that much to any of these concertos nowadays) but it was a piece that really stunned me as a teenager new to classical music.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on December 31, 2022, 01:37:56 AM
Quote from: Madiel on December 30, 2022, 01:25:02 PMYou're older. It's unclear whether you're wiser.  :P

 :D  :D  :D

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: caters on December 31, 2022, 12:58:19 PM
I've only ever heard the Emperor concerto once in its entirety. It's great, but not my favorite by any means.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BasilValentine on January 01, 2023, 06:58:05 AM
The finale of the Emperor is wonderful, probably my favorite concerto movement by Beethoven. I like the Fourth best overall, although the concerto is the Classical Era instrumental genre that interests me least.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on January 01, 2023, 07:08:14 AM
I think Mozart's and Beethoven's piano concerti (and to a lesser extent their other concertos) are the best concerti ever. There are a few later ones keeping up and also some Bach (although almost all baroque concerti are smaller scale and more chamber music than late classical and later ones, so they can hardly be  compared) but the 19th century usually oscillates between shallow virtuoso concerti and overlong/serious "symphonic ones", so with very few exceptions they are mostly flawed to me while with Mozart and Beethoven we have a perfect balance between seriousness and playfulness, symphonic coherence and virtuoso display.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: LKB on January 03, 2023, 12:46:28 PM
Quote from: Florestan on December 30, 2022, 12:31:09 PMMy favorite Beethoven PC is No. 2.

In general, I love my Beethoven to be unbuttoned, not-serious, non-heroic, the-socialite-he-might-have-been-had-he-not-gone-deaf. Which means I love his early period, I like his middle period and I don't  much care for his late period.

My two cents: Beethoven, Bruckner and Mahler are for teenagers --- Mozart, Haydn and Schubert are for grownups, while Chopin is in a league of his own.

While l can't claim to love all of those composers equally or unreservedly, I've at least been able to appreciate them all since l was an adolescent. So it seems that my " two cents " are of a different currency.  ;D

Of course, l was a performing musician for a long time, which is a very different dynamic compared to exclusively listening.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 10:43:39 AM
Piano Trios - been listening to the Florestan Trio most of the day and now on the Maggie Cole (Trio Goya) set of Op. 1 on period instruments (excellent but just Op. 1 w/ a skimpy 30 min second disc although priced as one CD) - the other set in my collection is Trio Elegiaque.

Now, I'm quite happy w/ these sets - would like a more complete 'period instrument' recording but not sure what else is available.  Also curious about the bottom 3 offerings - have some Trio Wanderer in other composers, and wondering if they did a newer recording (last pic) since the performers look older in the cover art?  Any comments, other suggestions, or favorites appreciated.  Thanks - Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71zmPd15wQL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/415o9H4yllL.jpg)  (https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/24/2020/07/CD_CHAN0822_Beethoven_cmyk-4cab697.jpg?quality=90&resize=591,586)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81anI7avH5L._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71fsyBTh1fL._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/712xJNt-V-L._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 28, 2023, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 10:43:39 AMI'm quite happy w/ these sets

Why then do you need another, Dave?  ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on January 28, 2023, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 10:43:39 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81anI7avH5L._SL1500_.jpg)

Of the ones you listed, I know only this one, and it is quite good.  Fairly light, energetic, exuberant, it is worth a listen or even a purchase.

My current reference set, and one it will take a lot to dislodge, is from Trio Owon.  Top notch across the board.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/519DN63kkRL._UX425_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 10:59:31 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 28, 2023, 10:49:25 AMWhy then do you need another, Dave?  ???


Hi Andrei - happy w/ the sets owned, but would like a more complete period performance - the Trio Goya is quite good but they don't seem to have recorded anymore?  And just curious about the others so wondering if anyone has some listening experience w/ them?  Dave
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Florestan on January 28, 2023, 11:11:51 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 10:59:31 AMwould like a more complete period performance

Why?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: Todd on January 28, 2023, 10:57:43 AMOf the ones you listed, I know only this one, and it is quite good.  Fairly light, energetic, exuberant, it is worth a listen or even a purchase.

My current reference set, and one it will take a lot to dislodge, is from Trio Owon.  Top notch across the board.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/519DN63kkRL._UX425_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)

Thanks Todd - unaware of that offering but just made a Spotify playlist and will audition soon - Dave
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2023, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 28, 2023, 11:11:51 AMWhy?


;D - now Andrei - belongs in one of those 'one-word' threads - I have no reason - but just got a little bonus $ from my retirement account and have some empty space where my Beethoven discs are stored -  8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on January 28, 2023, 11:47:30 AM
On period instruments the "Castle Trio" is very good, already from the 1980s. The problem is that while op.1,11,97 and some WoO were reissued on two EMI/Virgin twofers (the Archduke coupled with the Schubert Eflat major), the op.70 appeared only on a Smithsonian foundation disc that is very hard to find used, I am afraid. I'd recommend at least the twofer with op.1+11, WoO 38+39.

Staier (+Sepec, Queyras) did a great op.1/3 and 70/1 on harmonia mundi (also reissued with 2 violin sonatas as a twofer) and the label has another disc with Melnikov/Faust/Queyras playing op.70/2 and 97 on historic instruments but I have not heard the latter. I'd guess these two discs would make a top notch period instrument complement for what you have.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2023, 10:22:51 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/8b/jj/ug5b9f2xljj8b_600.jpg)

The main question when yet another new Beethoven concerto cycle appears is: will this one be any different? Will it offer something new? Does the pianist have a point of view?

Here, the answer is yes. Partially. I've only listened to 1 and 4, so I'll get to the others later. But wanted to jot down an initial impression based on those two. Haochen Zhang offers an unusual differentiation in playing style between the two. He plays the First in a small-scale, Mozartian way, almost like he's on a fortepiano - I turned up the volume to double-check, and consulted the booklet to verify that it really is a Steinway - only "breaking character" for the first movement cadenza (big, long version). He then does not do this in the Fourth, embracing a bigger, more romantic conception of piano color and dynamics. I think it is relatively rare to find a pianist who will alter their approach so significantly and humbly. Usually you get one who decides that one of those poles is the "right" style for the whole cycle.

Another major plus is Stutzmann, who leads HIP-inflected performances with hard-stick timpani and characterful attacks. The bassoons are unexpected stars of the Fourth Concerto.

I am not yet committing on whether this is good, great, etc., or whether anyone should buy it. To me, the best Beethoven concerto cycles have been modern-instrument, period-informed performances from the last 25 years: the tasteful and somewhat more classical Bronfman/Zinman on Arte Nova, and the barnstorming virtuosity of Oliver Schnyder on Sony (with a piano from c. 1900). So far, Zhang hasn't made me want to throw out either of those two. But in his ability to achieve both styles when he wants to, there is something quite thoughtful.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on February 07, 2023, 10:48:11 AM
This seems odd because I think the C major concerto is more large scale, bold, extrovert whereas the G major is more intimate and "Mozartean". Admittedly, this concerns maybe more the orchestra and the "whole" than the piano part.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2023, 12:04:09 PM
I think you're right on both counts - the mood of 1 is much more extroverted, but maybe he is working off the qualities of the available keyboards at the different times, rather than the character of the works. The "big" extroversion is why Schnyder is my preferred First.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mapman on May 28, 2023, 05:40:48 PM
I listened to several of Beethoven's Irish folk song arrangements today. One melody was familiar, and I couldn't find any source on the internet giving the source of the melody Beethoven used. Fortunately, I was able to locate the name that the melody is best known by.

Beethoven's "The Soldier", either published as 12 Songs of Various Nationalities, WoO 157/2 or 63 Irish songs, WoO 153/37, uses the melody "The Minstrel Boy".
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2023, 03:19:09 PM
DNA analysis of Beethoven's hair reveals health issues — and a family secret (https://www.cnn.com/style/article/beethoven-hair-study-scn/index.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2023, 03:22:10 PM
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 25, 2023, 03:19:09 PMDNA analysis of Beethoven's hair reveals health issues — and a family secret (https://www.cnn.com/style/article/beethoven-hair-study-scn/index.html)

QuotePrevious work suggesting that Beethoven had lead poisoning was determined to be based on a hair sample that didn't belong to him — one that instead had belonged to a woman.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lordlance on June 30, 2023, 12:33:02 PM
A new Beethoven 4th that I enjoyed:
(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music126/v4/69/89/ec/6989ecc5-7e30-887c-1fcb-1b34bb8dfbff/0810038860961_cover.jpg/600x600bf-60.jpg)

The only way to characterize this performance may be relentless. There's no warmth or lyricism about it and I am all for it. The tempi are breakneck so it's clearly HIPster inspired. When I made a friend hear it he said that it sounded like a timpani concerto which is a good thing in my book. ;-)

Not for the Klemperer or Walter crowd but perhaps Scherchen folks may enjoy it. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on June 30, 2023, 07:20:13 PM
Quote from: lordlance on June 30, 2023, 12:33:02 PMA new Beethoven 4th that I enjoyed:
(https://is3-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Music126/v4/69/89/ec/6989ecc5-7e30-887c-1fcb-1b34bb8dfbff/0810038860961_cover.jpg/600x600bf-60.jpg)

The only way to characterize this performance may be relentless. There's no warmth or lyricism about it and I am all for it. The tempi are breakneck so it's clearly HIPster inspired. When I made a friend hear it he said that it sounded like a timpani concerto which is a good thing in my book. ;-)

Not for the Klemperer or Walter crowd but perhaps Scherchen folks may enjoy it. 


Looks like they've gone for a 50's vibe in the cover art.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lordlance on July 01, 2023, 04:02:31 AM
Just heard Schuricht's Beethoven 1 with Paris Conservatory because it was this week's release by Pristine and also because Dave loves the orchestra. It seems the original performance is not on streaming sites so for now YouTube will have to suffice:



What a great performance. A lot of vitality and drive. Lean. Schuricht's always been someone whom I viewed as a Kapellmeister of sort. Performances that were perhaps respectable and nothing more but this shows he could sometimes be worth listening to.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 01, 2023, 06:57:27 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 01, 2023, 04:02:31 AMWhat a great performance. A lot of vitality and drive. Lean. Schuricht's always been someone whom I viewed as a Kapellmeister of sort. Performances that were perhaps respectable and nothing more but this shows he could sometimes be worth listening to.

Sometimes? Have you lost it? :)

Try Schuricht's recording of Beethoven 8 with Paris.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lordlance on July 01, 2023, 10:51:14 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 01, 2023, 06:57:27 AMSometimes? Have you lost it? :)

Try Schuricht's recording of Beethoven 8 with Paris.

Whenever I've heard Schuricht he did not inspire confidence or warrant repeated hearing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 01, 2023, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 01, 2023, 10:51:14 AMWhenever I've heard Schuricht he did not inspire confidence or warrant repeated hearing.

To each his own. Many of his recordings have impressed me with their interpretive focus.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: lordlance on July 01, 2023, 10:55:02 AM
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 01, 2023, 10:54:24 AMTo each his own. Many of his recordings have impressed me with their interpretive focus.
Do you have any absolute favorites? I can give it another spin.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Spotted Horses on July 01, 2023, 10:57:38 AM
Quote from: lordlance on July 01, 2023, 10:55:02 AMDo you have any absolute favorites? I can give it another spin.

Memories have vanished in the fog of time. The Beethoven 8 impressed me,.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Karl Henning on October 09, 2023, 12:10:11 PM
Cross-post:

Boston Symphony Orchestra kicks off 2023/24 season pairing Beethoven, Mozart, and Strauss with a Latvian tango (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/10/boston-symphony-orchestra-kicks-off-2023-24-season-pairing-beethoven-mozart-and-strauss-with-a-latvian-tango/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on December 16, 2023, 07:59:40 AM
Is there any good HIP recording of Fidelio? Any great recent recordings, HIP or otherwise? I have the Klemperer and am curious to hear a more recent performance with perhaps better sound.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 01:17:33 AM
I am not aware of and certainly have not heard any HIP Fidelio (there is a Gardiner recording of an older version "Leonore" but I haven't heard it either). Neither can I remember a strongly recommended Fidelio of the last 30 years (in fact the latest somewhat recommended ones seem from around 1980! Bernstein/Vienna and Solti).
Tbh I doubt that Fidelio would benefit from the HIP treatment. The main difficulty with Fidelio is the casting of the two main rôles that are too heavy for typical "Mozart singers" but not as heavy as typical Wagnerian rôles (although most love Vickers' Florestan, I think he sound sometimes to much like "Florestristan") and that casting (esp. the tenor) has not become easier in the last 40 years.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: vers la flamme on December 17, 2023, 06:44:40 AM
Are either of these any good?

Harnoncourt/COE/Teldec
Abbado/Lucerne/Decca

The Solti can be had for really cheap, I might pick up a copy.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on December 17, 2023, 07:08:49 AM
I was just reading Robert Levine's ClassicsToday review of the Naxos Fidelio (cond. Halasz), and he compares it to "Harnoncourt's chamberish interpretation" with lighter-voiced singers. He hasn't reviewed Harnoncourt separately but that description does make it sound like something you should investigate further.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2023, 07:20:49 AM
I haven't heard any of these; I only remember that the Naxos was pretty well received. The Solti is an orchestral/sonic spectacular but I am not a huge of either of his main singers (although they are highly regarded).
I don't think there is anything chamberish about Fidelio; there are 2 or 3 pieces on a smaller, more comedy/singspiel scale (the first duet and Rocco's and Marzelline's arias) but overall this is a large scale work that also has a vast scope of orchestral color and weight, e.g. in the big choral scenes or the dungeon scene at the beginning of act 2. Or the horns in Leonore's big aria (that I find a bit exaggerated, though).