Good grief, how many Sibelius scores did he have on his desk, it obviously had a substantial surface area: how do these characters have the face to write such drivel? Is the intention to make a kind of perverse virtue of absolute mindless plagiarism? Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup. Who does he think isn't going to recognize this stuff? Why oh why oh why do these people devote their time to such meaninglessnes? They're obviously that empty.
Quote from: Sean on February 20, 2008, 08:11:05 AM
Good grief, how many Sibelius scores did he have on his desk, it obviously had a substantial surface area: how do these characters have the face to write such drivel? Is the intention to make a kind of perverse virtue of absolute mindless plagiarism? Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup. Who does he think isn't going to recognize this stuff? Why oh why oh why do these people devote their time to such meaninglessnes? They're obviously that empty.
So ......... what's the final verdict: thumbs up, or thumbs down?
Quote from: Dm on February 20, 2008, 08:16:34 AM
So ......... what's the final verdict: thumbs up, or thumbs down?
Doubt Sean is considering the thumb as the digit of choice.
I haven't listened to the Lilburn in a while but yes there are Sibelian moments (not sure about ever noticing ripped-off quotes however).
Right now I'm listening to Dag Wiren....another candiadte for being too influenced by Sibelius.
So Lilburn, Wiren et al aren't the most original. That places them on a lower tier; however, how adept are they in infusing their own voice into the Sibelius mix. How is their technique? How is their melodic, harmonic and orchestrational ear? These are the things to listen for when handling second-tier composers. Some are worth ocassional hearings; a few not.
Quote from: Sean on February 20, 2008, 08:11:05 AM
Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup.
This sounds like a lot fun! I enjoy playing "Spot the Influence." Thanks for the recommendation, Sean. ;)
Sarge
I'm very enthusiastic about tonality and the re-exploration of its resources but Sibelius it would seem quit composing partly because of the rise of the SVS, avoiding bad faith in what he would have been doing if continuing along the same lines. But Lilburn's mind sees no such constraints- it's blithely derivative and unconvincing. The Wiren Serenade is okay though, less pretentious at least.
The Serenade of Wiren is good fun...I meant to say I'm listening to his 2nd symphony.
Sean, your fulminations would make more sense were Lilburn still alive.
He's not.
Your fulminations would make more sense had Lilburn kept doing what you accuse him of.
He did not. He went on to write symphony no. 3, and then he switched entirely (with a couple of trifling exceptions) to electroacoustic music, founding a studio in New Zealand, which is still going strong.
Generally I agree with your point. I picked up a bunch of Simpson and then dumped it all because I would rather hear those six or seven measures of Nielsen in the original Nielsen works. And he did that in eleven symphonies, not just one. But he is dead, too, so schtumm. No, better to inveigh, if that's what you're into, against people who are still alive and perpetrating, no? Better yet to encourage the new talents who are genuinely talented.
So now everyone go listen to some Lissa Meridan or John Rimmer or Daniel Behan, why not?
I consider Lilburn as a fine composer, and so what, that there are large remnants of Sibelius, i like Sibelius too! :)
Quote from: some guy on February 20, 2008, 09:30:33 AM
Sean, your fulminations would make more sense were Lilburn still alive.
He's not.
Your fulminations would make more sense had Lilburn kept doing what you accuse him of.
He did not. He went on to write symphony no. 3, and then he switched entirely (with a couple of trifling exceptions) to electroacoustic music, founding a studio in New Zealand, which is still going strong.
Generally I agree with your point. I picked up a bunch of Simpson and then dumped it all because I would rather hear those six or seven measures of Nielsen in the original Nielsen works. And he did that in eleven symphonies, not just one. But he is dead, too, so schtumm. No, better to inveigh, if that's what you're into, against people who are still alive and perpetrating, no? Better yet to encourage the new talents who are genuinely talented.
So now everyone go listen to some Lissa Meridan or John Rimmer or Daniel Behan, why not?
I love Simpson too, but I never heard Nielsen in his music, so I did not ditch that.
For early period Lilburn, I find the Drysdale, Aotearoa and Festive Overtures are quite good.
I've yet to hear his later electro-acoustic stuff which is miles away from Sibelius.
there are soooo many 20th C composers that plagiarize Vaughan Williams and Sibelius.
Neither composer is complex (except for VW 4th), and lovely themes sprinkled throughout, so makes it very tempting to just pick a few ideas from either and start scribbling away til something comes.
Too many composers to name.
Here you can read some nonsense and lies from Bernstein and Thomson on Diamond.
What propaganda. All Diamond did was copy stuff from Vaughan Williams.
Thomson *D is the real deal, no fake pearls here*
what a lie.
http://www.peermusicclassical.com/composer/composerdetail.cfm?detail=Diamond
Quote from: Harry on February 20, 2008, 09:35:14 AM
I love Simpson too, but I never heard Nielsen in his music, so I did not ditch that.
Simpson is so boring, straight up mix of late romantic composers, mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams. Its music you know you've heard somewhere before, but in much better form. Arnold and Tubin are another copycat.
Nieslen is another that just never did anything for me. Never undersatnd how he rose to any popularity.
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 10:23:47 AM
Simpson is so boring, straight up mix of late romantic composers, mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams. Its music you know you've heard somewhere before, but in much better form. Arnold and Tubin are another copycat.
Nieslen is another that just never did anything for me. Never undersatnd how he rose to any popularity.
Shocking! :o ;D
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 10:23:47 AM
Simpson is so boring, straight up mix of late romantic composers, mahler, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams. Its music you know you've heard somewhere before, but in much better form. Arnold and Tubin are another copycat.
Nieslen is another that just never did anything for me. Never undersatnd how he rose to any popularity.
I have never heard of Nieslen either. He must be really obscure.
I don't like SImpson or Tubin either. They epitomize the saying: I didn't understand it the first time but there is no way I am listening to it the second time.
Arnold is okay. DOn't get me wrong it isn't great music by any stretch of the imagination but at least you admit there is something there.
Quote from: vanessa_zang on February 20, 2008, 08:18:22 AM
Doubt Sean is considering the thumb as the digit of choice.
;D
Quote from: vanessa_zang on February 20, 2008, 08:18:22 AM
Doubt Sean is considering the thumb as the digit of choice.
Vanessa, how did you come by such mastery of American vernacular?
An imbecile's condemnation is praise indeed! I must give Lilburn another listen....
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 10:33:51 AM
I have never heard of Nieslen either. He must be really obscure.
I don't like SImpson or Tubin either. They epitomize the saying: I didn't understand it the first time but there is no way I am listening to it the second time.
Arnold is okay. DOn't get me wrong it isn't great music by any stretch of the imagination but at least you admit there is something there.
This is a very honest answer. we need more like you on this GMG forum. Straight up, no fooling.
Nieslen is somehat obscure.
But the few fans he does have are extremely fanatical. I tried a sym set on London, of course the bristish conductor was second rate, still there's not much there, a hodge podge of sorts.
The 1950's revordings with various swedish conductors is better, but still nothing to make me want to lay out any money.
I heard Arnold and Simpson over at Tulane's ML, can't recall , one is Brucknerian and the other soulds good for film music.
Anyway, nothing that creastes a desire to won any of their music.
Tubin I've heard clips of, and that was quite enough.
there's dozens of these off beat composers that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.
Over the yrs i;'ve tried a few suggestions based on a high *WOW* factor, but i came up empty handed, and short in the wallet.
Hey, at least i tried.
We need more like Sean who is willing to put forth a honest and fair opinion. And yourself.
Quote from: longears on February 20, 2008, 04:45:27 PM
I must give Lilburn another listen....
now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.
Nielsen was an accomplished violinist and his chamber works for the instrument are outstanding. I was listening to his Sonata for Violin and Piano (Op. 35), Prelude and Theme with Variations (Op. 48), and Preludio e presto (Op. 52) yesterday. They are challenging pieces to play and great to listen to.
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 05:12:05 PM
there's dozens of these off beat composers that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.
Over the yrs i;'ve tried a few suggestions based on a high *WOW* factor, but i came up empty handed, and short in the wallet.
Hey, at least i tried.
There are lots of composers that write music that sounds good or "cool" on the surface because of some creative orchestration or sound effects. But most of these music have no soul and no love. ANother one I can think of (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) is Rautavaara. His music is very atmospheric, mysterious, sounds like from another world. But it just does not reflect any humanity or carry any weight. But for a lot of people they treat him like he is the second coming of Sibelius.
Anyway Simpson is actually a very good music critic and scholar, but as a composer he not only wrote one symphony 10 times, he wrote one movement 40 times.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 05:33:50 PM
ANother one I can think of (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) is Rautavaara. His music is very atmospheric, mysterious, sounds like from another world. But it just does not reflect any humanity or carry any weight. But for a lot of people they treat him like he is the second coming of Sibelius.
I see exactly what you mean here. But as long as you just thinking, "atmospheric, mysterious" WITHOUT expecting something w/ strong melodies, it's a very fun ride! 8)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 20, 2008, 05:33:50 PM
There are lots of composers that write music that sounds good or "cool" on the surface because of some creative orchestration or sound effects. But most of these music have no soul and no love. ANother one I can think of (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) is Rautavaara. His music is very atmospheric, mysterious, sounds like from another world. But it just does not reflect any humanity or carry any weight. But for a lot of people they treat him like he is the second coming of Sibelius.
Anyway Simpson is actually a very good music critic and scholar, but as a composer he not only wrote one symphony 10 times, he wrote one movement 40 times.
Perfectwagnerite
You my friend have made some of the best posts I've seen in my 8 yrs posting on 5 CM forums.
I'm serious. I hope to continue reading such fine matured opinions from you in the future.
I take it you are under the age of 30? You are on a very good path to make great discoveries in music. I can read between lines of posters and see who will find the really great music and those who will *flounder about* never comming to the depths of the thing.
I've not been following the Wager topics, I take it you are a big fan of Wagner.
I stayed away from Wagner for decades for various reasons. But lately I've now become a Wagnerite for life, as far as a selection of his operas.
Quote from: longears on February 20, 2008, 04:45:27 PM
Vanessa, how did you come by such mastery of American vernacular?
I act as Vanessa's English language coach. When she asks me "how do you best express this?", I give her my suggestions.
Quote from: springrite on February 20, 2008, 08:13:48 PM
I act as Vanessa's English language coach. When she asks me "how do you best express this?", I give her my suggestions.
lol, i hope you don't give her surprise pop quizzes.....
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 05:12:05 PM
there's dozens of these off beat composers that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.
Yeah, like Pettersson, Schnittke and Carter. They have a groupie here too; one who proselytizes constantly about his pet composers. ;D
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 05:12:05 PM
We need more like Sean who is willing to put forth a honest and fair opinion. And yourself.
Let me see if I understand this correctly, Paul: an
honest opinion is an opinion that agrees with
your beliefs about classical music. A dishonest opinion is one that doesn't agree with you? Everyone who disagrees with you is dishonest? Interesting.
Sarge
Sarge, that
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2008, 03:09:49 AM
Yeah, like Pettersson, Schnittke and Carter. They have a groupie here too; one who proselytizes constantly about his pet composers. ;D
Let me see if I understand this correctly, Paul: an honest opinion is an opinion that agrees with your beliefs about classical music. A dishonest opinion is one that doesn't agree with you? Everyone who disagrees with you is dishonest? Interesting.
Sarge, that was the POST OF THE YEAR!!!
Ya nailed it!!!
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 10:16:22 AM
. . . Vaughan Williams and Sibelius. Neither composer is complex
Yet another howler from Paul. Thanks for the laugh!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2008, 03:09:49 AM
Quote from: paulbthere's dozens of these off beat composers that have a quirky fanatical groupies that do their best to proselytize and draw in new members.
Yeah, like Pettersson, Schnittke and Carter. They have a groupie here too; one who proselytizes constantly about his pet composers. ;D
I heartily join in applauding you for this surgical
riposte,
Sarge! :D
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 05:14:17 PM
now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.
Not that he's lying, just that he's an idiot. I discussed the Lilburn symphonies with Benji on the old forum. Hadn't heard them for awhile, but didn't recall any of them being so slavishly imitative as Sean described. I did listen again to the second. It's clearly derivative, but hardly a pastiche of "absolute mindless plagiarism...Endless near quotes from Sibelius 2, 4, 5 & 7, at least, plus a totally blatant
Pelleas Before the palace gate ending, smudged over with stretches of VW folksy syrup." (
Pelleas before the Palace Gate ending? Hardly.)
The problem is that Lilburn didn't really have his own voice. The piece strikes me as a student exercise, with different movements written in different styles. The scherzo could have come right out of one of Copland's ballets! In short, it's forgettable, and dismissable, but mostly because it's just not that good. Had it been as plagiaristic as Sean claims, it might have been better--like Howard Shore's movie music!
QuotePelleas before the Palace Gate ending? Hardly
That's exactly what it is.
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 05:14:17 PM
now why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.
So, if I understand you correctly (and I don't, always), you are saying that if you read someone else's opinion that certain music is derivative, or otherwise sucks, then you are a fool to actually listen to it yourself and make your own judgment? That's an interesting theory. :-\ ::)
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Andras Schiff (Beethoven's own Broadwood) - Bia 788 Op 126 Bagatelles (6) for Fortepiano #3 in Eb - Andante
Quotenow why in the world would you wanna give Lilburn another lsiten when you just read what Sean wrote.
Whats in it for him to lie anout it?
But go ahead, and then give us your opinion.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2008, 07:27:48 AM
So, if I understand you correctly (and I don't, always), you are saying that if you read someone else's opinion that certain music is derivative, or otherwise sucks, then you are a fool to actually listen to it yourself and make your own judgment? That's an interesting theory. :-\ ::)
No.
Paulb is trying to explain that
Sean is the ultimate objective source of musical aesthetics, and if
Sean says that a composition sucks, then there's no point in listening to it .........
Quote from: paulb on February 20, 2008, 06:09:54 PM
But lately I've now become a Wagnerite for life, as far as a selection of his operas.
How could a person be a "Wagnerite for life" in a context other than Wagner's operas?
Quote from: Dm on February 21, 2008, 08:49:07 AM
No. Paulb is trying to explain that Sean is the ultimate objective source of musical aesthetics, and if Sean says that a composition sucks, then there's no point in listening to it .........
Oh, thanks for the explanation. I was at a loss, but now I'm found.... :) (I didn't know that about Sean, actually).
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Op 61 Violin Concerto in D arr. for Clarinet - Russian National Orchestra / Pletnev Collins - Op 61 Clarinet (Violin) Concerto in D 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2008, 08:56:31 AM
Oh, thanks for the explanation. I was at a loss, but now I'm found.... :) (I didn't know that about Sean, actually).
It's actually very handy to know ........ and by heeding
Sean's advice, one can save a great deal of time by avoiding music which
Sean finds unappealing.
Sean is the
E.F. Hutton of music: When Sean talks, people listen.
Quote from: Dm on February 21, 2008, 09:00:58 AM
It's actually very handy to know ........ and by heeding Sean's advice, one can save a great deal of time by avoiding music which Sean finds unappealing.
Sean is the E.F. Hutton of music: When Sean talks, people listen.
Oh, so the making fun of him stuff is just a sort of defensive joke then? Man, am I ever slow on the uptake. I thought all those people were serious! :o
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Op 61 Violin Concerto in D arr. for Clarinet - Russian National Orchestra / Pletnev Collins - Op 61 Clarinet (Violin) Concerto in D 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo
Sure I don't.
Quote from: Dm on February 21, 2008, 08:54:11 AM
How could a person be a "Wagnerite for life" in a context other than Wagner's operas?
He's saying that only a few Wagner operas are great and worth listening to. Obviously Paul is a heretic and no true Wagnerite. A reformed Wagnerite at best, and a pitiful excuse for a man. If he tried to hang with us true Wagnerites (who worship every single note the devine man put to paper), we'd stone his sorry fake-Wagnerite ass.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2008, 09:19:48 AM
He's saying that only a few Wagner operas are great and worth listening to. Obviously Paul is a heretic and no true Wagnerite. A reformed Wagnerite at best, and a pitiful excuse for a man. If he tried to hang with us true Wagnerites (who worship every single note the devine man put to paper), we'd stone his sorry fake-Wagnerite ass.
Sarge
Imagine that. We've uncovered an internal inconsistency in one of
Paubl's posts .......
This thread is hilarious, I can't believe some of what i'm reading. I see Paul hasn't changed in the last few years, bless his cotton socks. ;D
I still like Lilburn's 2nd. Despite its flaws I think it has something to say, and I do find it evocative of the New Zealand landscape (well, what I imagine from seeing pictures and such).
Also, whoever has said Rautavaara was the 2nd coming of Sibelius? ???
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on February 21, 2008, 02:24:12 PM
Also, whoever has said Rautavaara was the 2nd coming of Sibelius? ???
yeah you are right,
Rautavvaarrara ( I can never get all those r's and a's right ;D) is not fit to tie Sibelius' sandals.
Thats what John The Prophet said about his master Jesus The Christ. ;)
Quote from: paulb on February 21, 2008, 02:30:22 PM
yeah you are right,
Rautavvaarrara ( I can never get all those r's and a's right ;D) is not fit to tie Sibelius' sandals.
Thats what John The Prophet said about his master Jesus The Christ. ;)
But Christ isnt the "2nd coming" of John the Baptist...
Quote from: paulb on February 21, 2008, 02:30:22 PM
yeah you are right,
Rautavvaarrara ( I can never get all those r's and a's right ;D) is not fit to tie Sibelius' sandals.
Thats what John The Prophet said about his master Jesus The Christ. ;)
Sandals?... never mind.
Anyway, I just dont see why Rautavaara would be thought of as the second coming of Sibelius, except for the rather obvious and incidental fact that they both hail from Finland. Seems a rather lazy throw-away comment, but hey, this thread is for garbage. >:D
Quote from: Jezetha on February 21, 2008, 02:40:26 PM
But Christ isnt the "2nd coming" of John the Baptist...
No but John PRECEDED Jesus The Christ as was foretold in the scriptures.
I hear no such greatness in Rautavvararra as to be compared to Sibelius. Not even close. Though i'm sure if I heard Rautavaarrar I;'d hear much that i could hear in better form in Sibelius. Which is my point.
Lutoslawski did the same in copying Bartok, but forged in some things he learned from Stravinsky as well.
I just....can't stop laughing. This is too much fun for me, time for bed.
Quote from: The Notorious MOG on February 21, 2008, 03:24:51 PM
I just....can't stop laughing.
Well, you
have been provoked to't! 8)
Quote from: paulb on February 21, 2008, 03:03:55 PM
Lutoslawski did the same in copying Bartok, but forged in some things he learned from Stravinsky as well.
Paul you said you had heard one piece by Lutoslawski. One. And the piece was dedicated to Bartok's memory. Do hear his works! If yo like Schnittke, Carter and Petterson you may very well like him too.
Paul's musicological remarks sometimes make me think that Andy Kaufman still walks among us.
Quote from: Guido on February 21, 2008, 04:40:10 PM
Paul you said you had heard one piece by Lutoslawski. One. And the piece was dedicated to Bartok's memory. Do hear his works! If yo like Schnittke, Carter and Petterson you may very well like him too.
Thanks Guido
Will place on my wish list
I like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDRDxA4W8HI&feature=related
and this section especially
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bVEK5oRJCI&feature=related
and i like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ua_nlxNt_I
and these may not be the 2 best of performances.
I really like this second clip.
Quote from: paulb on February 21, 2008, 03:03:55 PM
I hear no such greatness in Rautavvararra as to be compared to Sibelius. Not even close. Though i'm sure if I heard Rautavaarrar I;'d hear much that i could hear in better form in Sibelius. Which is my point.
WTF? You hear no such greatness in Rautavaara yet you haven't heard his work? What do he and Sibelius have to do with each other, anyway, besides being Finnish?
Quote from: paulb on February 21, 2008, 02:30:22 PM
Rautavvaarrara ( I can never get all those r's and a's right ;D) is not fit to tie Sibelius' sandals.
Yet you can get the t's and s's in "Pettersson" right ;D
Quote from: Grazioso on February 22, 2008, 04:30:34 AM
WTF? You hear no such greatness in Rautavaara yet you haven't heard his work?
Ah! You've now met Paul, I see.
Quote from: Jezetha on February 21, 2008, 02:40:26 PM
But Christ isnt the "2nd coming" of John the Baptist...
;D
Quote from: Harry on February 20, 2008, 09:33:41 AM
I consider Lilburn as a fine composer, and so what, that there are large remnants of Sibelius, i like Sibelius too! :)
Me too. The influence of VW and Sibelius seem assimilated to me. I think that Lilburn, in those early symphonies has a unique, recognisable style.
Quote from: Grazioso on February 22, 2008, 04:30:34 AM
WTF? You hear no such greatness in Rautavaara yet you haven't heard his work?
I once had a patron at the library who I used to talk to while working (had the same name as me). He said he liked this one movie even though he hadn't seen it yet. I think he had some type of down syndrome or something.