I'm interested in exploring all of Dvorak's symphonies, I could whistle and hum the entire Nos. 8 and 9, and even the opening theme to No. 1 "The Bells of Zlonice" (which is a pretty awesome theme), but really want to know the others just as well. I would like to get a complete set if there is one that is affordable, or complete it with single discs.
And please include your favorite recordings of Nos. 8 & 9, I would like to expand my collection of these two also.
Thanks, friends. ;D
For complete sets, I rather fancy Kubelik and Suitner. Additional 8ths of note for me are Szell, Mackerras, and Chung. For the 9th, I still enjoy Bernstein's CBS/Sony, Szell, Mackerras, Ancerl, and Giulini's DG recording, which has string playing of almost unmatched beauty. (The recording is clearly multi-miked, but this is a case where more is definitely more.)
May I also mention Ancerl's Sixth, and Chung's, for that matter. Well, I did.
Quote from: Todd on September 21, 2013, 05:17:37 PM
For complete sets, I rather fancy Kubelik and Suitner. Additional 8ths of note for me are Szell, Mackerras, and Chung. For the 9th, I still enjoy Bernstein's CBS/Sony, Szell, Mackerras, Ancerl, and Giulini's DG recording, which has string playing of almost unmatched beauty. (The recording is clearly multi-miked, but this is a case where more is definitely more.)
May I also mention Ancerl's Sixth, and Chung's, for that matter. Well, I did.
Which Mackerras 8th, Todd? I think I've seen a few including a live one from LPO that I really enjoyed.
Thanks!
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 21, 2013, 05:19:18 PMWhich Mackerras 8th, Todd?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o9Nj0OWiL._SY300_.jpg)
My favourite 9th is probably this one, Neumann & CzPO from 1994 on Denon, available at Symphonyshare. The new Andris Nelsons recording isn't too bad either, though..
QuoteDvorak 9, Vaclav Neumann, Czech Philharmonic Orchestra rec 11-12
December 1993 Rudolfinum Dvorak Hall, Prague (Live recording at the
concert in celebration of the centenary of the first performance of
the New World Symphony). DENON CO-75968. Recorded by single stereo-
pair microphone technique.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TZJTZgp3L.jpg)
Hard to beat Kertesz and the LSO in the Dvorak symphonies IMO. Such idiomatic performances:
[asin]B0000041WV[/asin]
I also hold high regard for Suitner's underrated cycle, as well as Rowicki's free-flowing, natural-sounding interpretations and Neumann's spirited performances. Just be aware that the sound quality on the Neumann set isn't quite up to modern standards.
[asin]B0007D0AX2[/asin] [asin]B0033KR5Z2[/asin] [asin]B0077DDWEE[/asin]
If you just want one cycle, though, go with the Kertesz. You won't be sorry. :)
My favorite cycle would be the Rowicki, London Symphony on Philips (now marked as Decca). For individual discs, I love the Dorati 7th on Mercury Living Presence, the Karajan BPO on EMI (a very dark reading of the work) and Karajan, WPO, on Decca.
Rowicki for a complete set. I like the other Neumann recordings for individual ones (I think he did them twice), as well as Dohnanyi.
Szell for 7 and Rowicki for 4-6.
My home turf, Greg!! I own almost every cycle out there (all but Kubelik, basically), although I haven't yet heard Kertesz all the way through (recent acquisition).
Top choices per symphony.
1: no choice here; not a big fan of this work. For what it's worth, Kubelik publicly expressed a dislike of this work as well, which suggests you maybe shouldn't listen to his recording.
2: the "back half" of this symphony is where Dvorak really comes into his own and starts to show off his mature musical language. The scherzo and finale are as chipper, Czech, and vibrantly scored as the Slavonic Dances; the big difference between this and 7-9 comes in emotional weight. I'm a big fan of the recordings that are rhythmically sharpest and "dance-iest": Suitner, Anguelov, Neumann, and Gunzenhauser, although Suitner has some minor cuts. (Neumann might too.) Anguelov may well rank #1 here.
3: look for slow movements lasting 15+ minutes for maximum dramatic impact. I'm a huge fan of Neumann and Rowicki in this symphony and those are the two top picks; shout out to Suitner as well.
4: another strong point for Neumann and one of the best parts of Gunzenhauser's cycle, although it's coupled with Gunz's 8th, which might be the dullest 8th ever recorded.
5: at first I disliked Rowicki here but I've become a big fan. Suitner, Neumann, Kertesz, and Anguelov are also meritorious.
6: another win for Rowicki, but the grand prize is a tie between the gorgeous Suitner and Mackerras readings. Well, and this is also a Kubelik specialty. Ancerl's terrific. The recent Alsop is the only Alsop Dvorak worth having (that is to say, it is worth having, but maybe as a fourth or fifth recording). It's also a rare high point for Gunzenhauser, who takes the first movement very quickly (12 minutes).
7: goodness gracious. My #1 favorite since Day 1 has been the relatively slow but disturbingly dark Bernstein/NYPO (!), but there are also classic accounts by Szell, Suitner, and Kubelik and they are all glorious. I think I remember Neumann being a success too. Alsop is a square, too-Brahmsian failure here, but Gunzenhauser is worst of all. Mackerras/Philharmonia is sadly underwhelming.
8: Mackerras/Prague SO (Todd's rec) is pretty darn good, and so's Szell, but for my ears nothing has ever matched Suitner, with his extra-piquant winds and a first-movement coda that's super-thrilling because he doubles the tempo.
9: Andris Nelsons stormed on the field earlier this year and ran away with my "favorite recording" trophy, leaving the very worthy Kubelik and Suitner empty-handed. If you're in Half Price Books sometime, you'll almost certainly see Gunzenhauser's disc, which is far, far better than it should be and (along with 2 and 6) one of the high points of his cycle. Avoid the unsubtle, angry Karajan (EMI digital).
Top cycle picks:* Neumann and Suitner
*again, bearing in mind I've only heard Kubelik 6-9 and parts of Kertesz
Supplement those with: Rowicki 4-6, Mackerras 6, Kubelik 7-9, Szell 7-9, Bernstein 7, Nelsons 9
Anguelov is only available as a box, but if you can download his 2-4, do so. His whole cycle is actually better than anybody would expect.
[EDITED to add in Mackerras' 6th after Sarge pointed out I forgot it.]
For nos. 7-9, it doesn't get much better than Szell:
[asin]B000007QCH[/asin]
Absolutely thrilling performances!
By the way, the Smetana Quartet orchestrated by Szell himself is a HUGE bonus, like having a tenth symphony.
Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2013, 07:55:09 PM
By the way, the Smetana Quartet orchestrated by Szell himself is a HUGE bonus, like having a tenth symphony.
I totally agree! Szell really gave this work a new dimension in his orchestration.
Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2013, 07:32:40 PM
6: another win for Rowicki, but the grand prize has to go to the gorgeous Suitner reading. Well, and this is also a Kubelik specialty. Ancerl's terrific. The recent Alsop is the only Alsop Dvorak worth having (that is to say, it is worth having, but maybe as a fourth or fifth recording). It's also a rare high point for Gunzenhauser, who takes the first movement very quickly (12 minutes).
Have you heard Dohnanyi/Cleveland in this one? He's an absolute must. Jansons is pretty good in #5.
I like the Rowicki - it has a number of strong contenders, particularly the early and middle symphonies. Suitner has gotten a lot of attention at GMG as well.
Quote from: North Star on September 21, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
My favourite 9th is probably this one, Neumann & CzPO from 1994 on Denon, available at Symphonyshare. The new Andris Nelsons recording isn't too bad either, though..
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TZJTZgp3L.jpg)
gorgeous performance.
For complete set Neumann's analogue CzPO (the purple box). I was very taken by it, idiomatic, unforced, singing, detailed with orchestral balances very precise and beautifully judged (one of Neumann's stronger suits).
As for some singles, I like:
5th-6th-7th - Karel Sejna/CzPO - Supraphon
6th - Kubelik/BRSO - Orfeo
7th - Ivan Fischer/BFO - Channel Classics
8th & 9th - Talich/CzPO (50s recordings) - Supraphon
9th - Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw - Teldec
Ahh! So much to chew on, thank you all for participating. ;D
But don't quit, keep the discussions going!
Very much enjoying this thread.
Quote from: karlhenning on September 22, 2013, 04:07:37 AM
Very much enjoying this thread.
There should be definitely a Jansons in it! ;)
Sounds good, Annie!
I have Kubelik, Kertesz, Anguélove, Suitner, Rowicki, Neumann along with dozens of single discs, twofers, threefers :D . Not a fan of K & K; don't like the recorded sound of the Kertesz cycle and he's too often in a rush. I have the feeling Kubelik wasn't into the early symphonies; sounds like it anyway.
For a complete cycle I recommend Rowicki (Neumann takes the Silver; Suitner the Bronze). Rowicki's is beautifully recorded; naturally balanced but with good inner detail in best Philips tradition. For numbers 1 through 5 no one has done them better than Rowicki. He takes the early symphonies seriously, makes no cuts, and plays the hell out of them. His 6 is among the best too. Re-hearing his Seventh and Eighth Symphonies recently, I was surprised that I'd once thought less highly of them. In fact, they are damn good. The LSO has a precision that rivals Szell's orchestra and a really fine brass section; spectacular horns! A bonus, and a very substantial bonus are the overtures that come with his set. You must here his Othello!
Individual discs: Mackerras/Czech Phil is by far my favorite 6 (I'm surprised Brian didn't mention him; I think it was his recommendation...or am I having a senior moment :D ) It gets complicated with 7, 8 and 9. There are so many good performances and recordings.
In 8 you know I look for good and audible horn trills in the last movement, along with a prominent trumpet playing the counter melody to the flute solo about two minutes into the movement (it's astonishing how many otherwise good performances bury the trumpet). Karajan's Vienna boys do a terrific job with the trills. For horns you just can't beat Vienna (they play almost as well for Chung). A big thank you to Scarpia who recommended this CD last year:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/dvo8brahms3karajan.jpg)
Szell and I go way back with the Ninth but Dohnänyi has the better recording. Paita is...different. Insanely fast in the outer movements but with one of the slowest, most emotionally milked Largos. Time almost stands still (nearly 16 minutes long). With Bernstein, time does stand still (18+)
1. Rowicki, Neumann
2. Rowicki, Anguélov
3. Rowicki, Neumann
4. Rowicki, Neumann, Pesek
5. Rowicki
6. Mackerras, Rowicki, Dohnänyi
7. Davis (LSO Live), Szell, Bernstein, Rowicki
8. Karajan/WP, Rowicki, Szell, Chung, Neumann (not great horns but I like how he drives the Finale a bit more leisurely than most)
9. Dohnänyi, Szell, Paita, Bernstein/Israel, Karajan/Berlin (the angry one 8) )
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 06:01:52 AM
I have Kubelik, Kertesz, Anguélove, Suitner, Rowicki, Neumann along with dozens of single discs, twofers, threefers :D . Not a fan of K & K; don't like the recorded sound of the Kertesz cycle and he's too often in a rush. I have the feeling Kubelik wasn't into the early symphonies; sounds like it anyway.
For a complete cycle I recommend Rowicki (Neumann takes the Silver; Suitner the Bronze). Rowicki's is beautifully recorded; naturally balanced but with good inner detail in best Philips tradition. For numbers 1 through 5 no one has done them better than Rowicki. He takes the early symphonies seriously, makes no cuts, and plays the hell out of them. His 6 is among the best too. Re-hearing his Seventh and Eighth Symphonies recently, I was surprised that I'd once thought less highly of them. In fact, they are damn good. The LSO has a precision that rivals Szell's orchestra and a really fine brass section; spectacular horns! A bonus, and a very substantial bonus are the overtures that come with his set. You must here his Othello!
Individual discs: Mackerras/Czech Phil is by far my favorite 6 (I'm surprised Brian didn't mention him; I think it was his recommendation...or am I having a senior moment :D ) It gets complicated with 7, 8 and 9. There are so many good performances and recordings.
In 8 you know I look for good and audible horn trills in the last movement, along with a prominent trumpet playing the counter melody to the flute solo about two minutes into the movement (it's astonishing how many otherwise good performances bury the trumpet). Karajan's Vienna boys do a terrific job with the trills. For horns you just can't beat Vienna (they play almost as well for Chung). A big thank you to Scarpia who recommended this CD last year:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/dvo8brahms3karajan.jpg)
Szell and I go way back with the Ninth but Dohnänyi has the better recording. Paita is...different. Insanely fast in the outer movements but with one of the slowest, most emotionally milked Largos. Time almost stands still (nearly 16 minutes long). With Bernstein, time does stand still (18+)
1. Rowicki, Neumann
2. Rowicki, Anguélov
3. Rowicki, Neumann
4. Rowicki, Neumann, Pesek
5. Rowicki
6. Mackerras, Rowicki, Dohnänyi
7. Davis (LSO Live), Szell, Bernstein, Rowicki
8. Karajan/WP, Rowicki, Chung, Neumann (not great horns but I like how he drives the Finale a bit more leisurely than most)
9. Dohnänyi, Szell, Paita, Bernstein/Israel), Karajan/Berlin (the angry one 8) )
Sarge
Does no one share any love for
Libor Pesek's recordings of the Dvorak symphonies? :(
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 22, 2013, 06:04:23 AM
Does no one share any love for Libor Pesek's recordings of the Dvorak symphonies? :(
I've only heard his Fourth (an Annie recommendation). Like it a lot but maybe not so much that it makes me want to invest in the entire cycle. Convince me otherwise, Nut 8)
Sarge
Drasko reminds me to say that when I was talking about Neumann, I was talking about "the purple box."
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 21, 2013, 10:05:42 PM
Have you heard Dohnanyi/Cleveland in this one? He's an absolute must. Jansons is pretty good in #5.
Jansons was my first Fifth and it is indeed pretty good. The only Dohnanyi/Cleveland I have is the Eighth...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 06:01:52 AM
Mackerras/Czech Phil is by far my favorite 6 (I'm surprised Brian didn't mention him; I think it was his recommendation...or am I having a senior moment :D )
OH YEAH THAT CD IS FANTASTIC. Great Golden Spinning Wheel, probably my favorite recording of that, too.
By the way, now I'm really sad I'm moving house because I just want to sit around listening to different Dvorak cycles nonstop.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 06:07:11 AM
I've only heard his Fourth (an Annie recommendation). Like it a lot but maybe not so much that it makes me want to invest in the entire cycle. Convince me otherwise, Nut 8)
Sarge
Well, that is a good one, Sarge. As that is my favourite Dvorak symphony. ;D
I will not try to convince you. Although we have many, many shared interests in composers and works, I don't know if I've ever encountered a situation where we both have a shared favourite recording of anything. :D And that is not a bad thing, only a noticeable interesting thing.
So, in light of this information, perhaps you should stay away from Pesek/Dvorak. :laugh:
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 22, 2013, 06:19:02 AM
So, in light of this information, perhaps you should stay away from Pesek/Dvorak. :laugh:
Yeah, maybe you're right ;)
Do you think this a fair assessment of the cycles:
"Overall these performances [Pesek] lack the biting dramatic edge of Kubelik, Rowicki, and Kertész, and instead offer a more bucolic lyricism."
A bucolic lyricism in Dvorak is certainly no bad thing...but I have Neumann for that. I wonder what Pesek would add.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 06:25:15 AM
Yeah, maybe you're right ;)
Do you think this a fair assessment of the cycles:
"Overall these performances [Pesek] lack the biting dramatic edge of Kubelik, Rowicki, and Kertész, and instead offer a more bucolic lyricism."
A bucolic lyricism in Dvorak is certainly no bad thing...but I have Neumann for that. I wonder what Pesek would add.
Sarge
Yes, perhaps that is a fair assessment. :)
Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2013, 06:15:43 AM
OH YEAH THAT CD IS FANTASTIC. Great Golden Spinning Wheel, probably my favorite recording of that, too.
Ah, so it was you. Whew...my memory is intact ;D Yes, I recall now we discussed Harnoncourt vs Mack in the Spinning Wheel. I think I marginally preferred the former but they are both superb.
Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2013, 06:15:43 AM
By the way, now I'm really sad I'm moving house because I just want to sit around listening to different Dvorak cycles nonstop.
That's what I've been doing. Listening to Dvorak non-stop this afternoon, prep'ing for my reply to this thread. Nice way to spend a Sunday 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 06:31:11 AM
Ah, so it was you. Whew...my memory is intact ;D Yes, I recall now we discussed Harnoncourt vs Mack in the Spinning Wheel. I think I marginally preferred the former but they are both superb.
That's what I've been doing. Listening to Dvorak non-stop this afternoon, prep'ing for my reply to this thread. Nice way to spend a Sunday 8)
Sarge
I actually am listening to Mac's Spinning Wheel while finishing up some business. Now you've made me want to put on Harnoncourt's. But I have to go to the old place and load up all my clothes and books and kitchen gadgets and the bed frame and bring them back here :(
EDIT: By the way, somebody mentioned Ivan Fischer's Seventh with his Budapest Festival Orch. That's another extremely good CD I forgot to mention, with another unusually dark conception of the symphony, if my memory's working right.
Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2013, 06:42:58 AM
EDIT: By the way, somebody mentioned Ivan Fischer's Seventh with his Budapest Festival Orch. That's another extremely good CD I forgot to mention, with another unusually dark conception of the symphony, if my memory's working right.
Will investigate. I like my D minor dark.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 06:48:57 AM
Will investigate. I like my D minor dark.
Sarge
;D I like all minor works dark! :D Just like chocolate.
I don't have many Dvorak cycle, but to my ear, Kertesz and Suitner are the first choice for complete cycle. Suitner, despite some not-too-great brass playing, offers the lyrical quality, and Kertesz, on the other hand, is exciting in most of symphonies. Rowicki, though superb in the early symphony, suffers from the middle-of-the-road interpreattion in the great 7,8,9. I don't like Kubelik's cycle because his Orchestra, BPO, is IMHO not really suite with Dvorak's music.
For individual:
I think Rowicki is best from the first to sixth symphony, with addition of Mackerras and Talich's Sixth.
For the seventh, Sejna, Talich, Kubelik, Szell, Ivan Fischer all are great but my preferences go to Giulini's performances on BBC legends and Silvestri's on EMI.
The competition on the Eight is even tougher with Kubelik's BPO, Szell, Karajan's VPO, Kertesz, Talich, Mackerras and my now favorite, Tennstedt on BBC legends.
For the Ninth, Fricsay is my first choice although Szell, Tennstedt's on Testament, Kertesz's VPO, Ancerl, Bernstein's NYPO, Harnoncourt all are great.
Quote from: trung224 on September 22, 2013, 07:42:50 AMRowicki, though superb in the early symphony, suffers from the middle-of-the-road interpreattion in the great 7,8,9.
I wish Rowicki's 7th were "darker" but it's certainly an exciting performance.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 22, 2013, 09:35:12 AM
I wish Rowicki's 7th were "darker" but it's certainly an exciting performance.
Sarge
Yeah, that's the only problem I have with Rowicki's performances, particularly of the minor-key symphonies. He could have dug a little deeper into the pathos and drama in these works, but he brings a freshness and vitality to them that rather makes up for it. But yeah, no. 7 is probably the weakest performance in the Rowicki cycle, and that's actually saying a lot! Szell and Kertesz remain my top choices for this work.
Quote from: trung224 on September 22, 2013, 07:42:50 AMTalich's Sixth.
Oh goodness, thank you for mentioning this. Talich's Sixth is a truly great account, my favorite slow movement reading (I think 13 minutes? veeery slow). Thinking about that symphony, it is definitely in my top four with Mackerras, Suitner, and Kubelik. And Rowicki. Top five, whatever :D
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 22, 2013, 06:04:23 AM
Does no one share any love for Libor Pesek's recordings of the Dvorak symphonies? :(
I only have a disk with 7 & 8. Back in the early CD days, his 7 was one of the better ones.
You can get it for a penny now (well, plus $3.98 shipping and handling.)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000DNX7/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
I'm still getting to know these symphonies myself, but does anyone share my love for Kondrashin's 9th on Decca?
I feel like the odd man out, as few of my choices have been mentioned...but then I haven't heard as much as some of you.
For 5 I like Jansons. For 6 I like the Belohlavek on Chandos, which I don't think has been available for ages.
I had LPs of Rostropovich's 6 and 7 with the LPO. Some critics have panned them, but I liked their rough & tough approach. Also fond memories of a Giulini/CSO 8th on DG.
I like Dohnanyi's 7 and 8, and also Davis/Conc'bouw. Not really interested in anyone's 9th; heard this symphony too often in my formative listening years.
Quote from: betterthanfine on September 22, 2013, 12:40:51 PM
I'm still getting to know these symphonies myself, but does anyone share my love for Kondrashin's 9th on Decca?
That was the one I played to death, so I suppose I loved it at one time :)
I note that Brilliant has combined the Suitner symphony cycle with the Kuchar recordings of orchestral works with the Janacek Philharmonic. I have not heard the Suitner recordings, but I really like this Kuchar set.
One more vote for that Szell 7-9 set. My favorite 7 and 8, and a very good 9.
For 9, my faves are Kertesz's first recording (VPO) and Fricsay.
[asin]B009MP8KPG[/asin]
[asin]B00005MJ13[/asin]
Quote from: betterthanfine on September 22, 2013, 12:40:51 PM
I'm still getting to know these symphonies myself, but does anyone share my love for Kondrashin's 9th on Decca?
As a fan of Kondrashin's Shostakovich cycle, I found this recordings a disappointment. Instead of "fast and furious" performances, which is the landmark style of Kondrashin in most of his recordings (Shostakovich and Mahler), here we have a middle-of-the-road reading, not enough "con brio" but not really subtle. Possibly the heart attack prevented him to play adventured .
Quote from: Pat B on September 22, 2013, 03:44:45 PM
For 9, my faves are Kertesz's first recording (VPO, mono) and Fricsay.
I think you meant that the Fricsay is mono. The Kertesz is stereo. It was my "imprint" recording for the work. The Wind Serenade is also wonderful.
Quote from: Daverz on September 22, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
I think you meant that the Fricsay is mono. The Kertesz is stereo. It was my "imprint" recording for the work. The Wind Serenade is also wonderful.
My mistake. I thought I read somewhere that the VPO Kertesz is mono, but I can't find that now. The Eloquence issue doesn't say either way. It is from 1961, so mono would be anachronistic. Thanks for the correction.
(EDIT: I'm re-listening to it now and it is clearly stereo.)
The Fricsay, from 1960, is definitely in stereo.
Quote from: betterthanfine on September 22, 2013, 12:40:51 PM
I'm still getting to know these symphonies myself, but does anyone share my love for Kondrashin's 9th on Decca?
Yes! I grew up with this one, and it is one of my favourite recordings of all time. The timings just feel right, somehow, and the sound quality is superb for early DDD (1979?).
Bluto
Quote from: Daverz on September 22, 2013, 02:52:15 PM
I note that Brilliant has combined the Suitner symphony cycle with the Kuchar recordings of orchestral works with the Janacek Philharmonic. I have not heard the Suitner recordings, but I really like this Kuchar set.
By all the Golden Spinning Wheels, it is a shame you have not yet met with the Suitner set! It is by a long way the most consistent and brilliantly portrayed Dvorak Symphony set out there. Suitner was one of the finest conductors - what a shame he is less known than some conductors these days because he was
far better than most. If you get a chance, have a listen to his controlled dynamics - he really knew how to make an Orchestra sound brilliant. There's a Beethoven 9 out there by him which is also outstanding...most of his output was in the Operas, but by golly his Orchestral conducting brilliance makes other conductors sound inadequate.
Suitner in action...
(http://www.nachdermusik.de/en/bgberuehrungen.jpg)
Quote from: Scots John on September 24, 2013, 03:04:34 PM
By all the Golden Spinning Wheels, it is a shame you have not yet met with the Suitner set!
I thought about getting it. It's cheap enough. But I have more than enough recordings of Dvorak symphonies already.
Quote from: Daverz on September 24, 2013, 04:39:58 PM
I thought about getting it. It's cheap enough. But I have more than enough recordings of Dvorak symphonies already.
:'(
Just re-read this 3-page thread which started/ended in 2013 - currently going through my Dvorak collection and have culled out some duplicate recordings and decided to replace a few - now on the Dvorak Symphonies - I own the top 3 shown below which appear to be some 'favorites' in this discussion - BUT, just wondering about anything new and/or improved - the Kertesz recordings have been remastered by Decca and expanded (bottom, left) and yet again even w/ a BD (bottom, middle) - this latter set has received some superlative reviews but seems to be unavailable, i.e. OOP - one used copy is on sale for $800 USD in the Amazon MP! Also saw the set by Belohlavek (bottom, right).
So, after 6+ years, please add comments on whether your preferences have changed and what 'newer' sets (either really new and/or remastered) have impressed you. Are Kertesz, Kubelik, Suitner, and Rowicki still in the top tier? Dave
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mdrcG8-WL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tay1ZKhOL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517BrZMW-zL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/717GyyYR2SL._SL1400_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714QSg-Ka5L._SL1400_.jpg)
Dave - for me, as a big Dvorak fan, the answer is yes, those three are still the champs. The more I listen the more I appreciate Kertesz and Rowicki. Belohlavek was surprisingly short on energy, given how propulsive his Martinu can be.
I prefer individual recordings for the last symphonies, but a set is a great way to have the whole lot in one convenient place.
My preferred set is that of Neumann with the Czech Philharmonic. Suitner and Kertesz offer excellent value from a more 'occidental' vantage point (bigger, beefier). I have not heard the Rowicki performances.
Released this week. My brother wrote the notes for it:
(//)
Quote from: André on February 04, 2020, 07:29:48 AM
I prefer individual recordings for the last symphonies, but a set is a great way to have the whole lot in one convenient place.
My preferred set is that of Neumann with the Czech Philharmonic. Suitner and Kertesz offer excellent value from a more 'occidental' vantage point (bigger, beefier). I have not heard the Rowicki performances.
I do very much enjoy the
Neumann/
Czech set; I've not really compared it to either
Kertész or
Kubelik, both of whose sets I also have.
Quote from: vandermolen on February 04, 2020, 07:43:53 AM
Released this week. My brother wrote the notes:
I do hope Dvořák did. ???
I also own and enjoy Neumann - it's available in a purplish box with a bunch of other orchestral works. But I haven't done a lot of direct comparisons. I think Neumann's Third was really really good? But so is Rowicki's...
The SWR series continues with Symphony No. 2 and a different conductor (previous issues were with Mark Chichon).
[asin]B07X27V7ZZ[/asin]
https://open.qobuz.com/album/yeqc5ia0oki6a
The symphony burbles along nicely and was enough to greatly impress Brahms at the time (""This guy has got more ideas than any of us. Everyone else could scratch together the main themes from his rubbish.")
I don't think it will ever be a favorite of the first four.
Quote from: Daverz on February 04, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
The SWR series continues with Symphony No. 2 and a different conductor (previous issues were with Mark Chichon).
[asin]B07X27V7ZZ[/asin]
https://open.qobuz.com/album/yeqc5ia0oki6a
The symphony burbles along nicely and was enough to greatly impress Brahms at the time (""This guy has got more ideas than any of us. Everyone else could scratch together the main themes from his rubbish.")
I don't think it will ever be a favorite of the first four.
I enjoyed the Chichon volumes - this one sags down into the realm of competent run through. Absolutely nothing to recommend it ahead of the many/cheaper/more inspired alternatives. The kind of performance to make you think this IS a weak work!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on February 04, 2020, 12:51:02 PM
I enjoyed the Chichon volumes - this one sags down into the realm of competent run through. Absolutely nothing to recommend it ahead of the many/cheaper/more inspired alternatives. The kind of performance to make you think this IS a weak work!
Thanks for the report RS. I think I'll listen to Kertesz or Rowicki to clear my ears.
Thanks all for the comments - yesterday I listened to Dvorak's Symphony No. 9 from each of my three boxes shown previously, and must say all were enjoyable - if I had to discard one, not sure which I would choose? :)
However, I'm still curious about the 'newest' Decca restoration of the Kertesz performances which includes the entire CD collection on one BD - seems to be OOP although downloads are available (Presto below) - not sure if Decca will re-issue this set? Indeed, I would be pleased w/ just buying the BD (my BD player is attached to my den stereo) if that was offered. Dave
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HVwxJfB/0/c8c0cfbe/O/Dvorak_Presto.png)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2020, 06:46:23 AM
Thanks all for the comments - yesterday I listened to Dvorak's Symphony No. 9 from each of my three boxes shown previously, and must say all were enjoyable - if I had to discard one, not sure which I would choose? :)
However, I'm still curious about the 'newest' Decca restoration of the Kertesz performances which includes the entire CD collection on one BD - seems to be OOP although downloads are available (Presto below) - not sure if Decca will re-issue this set? Indeed, I would be pleased w/ just buying the BD (my BD player is attached to my den stereo) if that was offered. Dave
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HVwxJfB/0/c8c0cfbe/O/Dvorak_Presto.png)
I have the Kertesz set as hi-res downloads. It sounds gorgeous in this remastering. I've had most of these recordings in various CD incarnations over the decades.
Quote from: Daverz on February 05, 2020, 10:45:26 AM
I have the Kertesz set as hi-res downloads. It sounds gorgeous in this remastering. I've had most of these recordings in various CD incarnations over the decades.
Hi
Dave - thanks for responding - I have just the older box shown before - curious, did you DL from Presto or elsewhere? If you don't mind, what was the cost? Still would LOVE to buy just the BD and get a booklet - looks like a Presto DL comes w/ a booklet. Dave :)
Quote from: Pat B on September 22, 2013, 07:55:55 PM
My mistake. I thought I read somewhere that the VPO Kertesz is mono, but I can't find that now. The Eloquence issue doesn't say either way. It is from 1961, so mono would be anachronistic. Thanks for the correction.
(EDIT: I'm re-listening to it now and it is clearly stereo.)
The Fricsay, from 1960, is definitely in stereo.
There is an older mono recording with the RIAS orchestra (RSO Berlin), also DG, ASIN B0000AXM2T
[asin]B0000AXM2T[/asin]
With Kertesz there are two stereo recordings, one single with the Vienna Philharmonic that is hard to find and the other in the complete cycle with the London Symphony.
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2020, 11:13:36 AM
Hi Dave - thanks for responding - I have just the older box shown before - curious, did you DL from Presto or elsewhere? If you don't mind, what was the cost? Still would LOVE to buy just the BD and get a booklet - looks like a Presto DL comes w/ a booklet. Dave :)
Sorry, checking my drive, I got confused again about what I've actually downloaded and what I've listened to on Qobuz. There's not much difference in my playback interface between local files and files streamed from Qobuz.
https://open.qobuz.com/album/0002894830760
Qobuz also sells downloads to subsribers, and if you have their Sublime service the hi-res files are $40 (I have a lower $15/month service that allows me to listen to anything and download CD quality files, but without that steep discount).
Quote from: Jo498 on February 05, 2020, 11:19:29 AM
With Kertesz there are two stereo recordings, one single with the Vienna Philharmonic that is hard to find and the other in the complete cycle with the London Symphony.
Here's the VPO recording at Presto:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8024470--dvorak-symphony-no-9-serenade-for-wind-instruments
Also in this box of Vienna recordings:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8642503--istvan-kertesz-in-vienna
The Rowicki and Kertesz cycles are great. I have a soft spot for Dorati's 7 with the LSO on Mercury.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514C796dz%2BL.jpg)
Quote from: Ratliff on February 05, 2020, 12:11:05 PM
The Rowicki and Kertesz cycles are great.
Yeah, both great. My favorite sets of the six I own.
Sarge
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 04, 2020, 06:54:27 AM
Just re-read this 3-page thread which started/ended in 2013 - currently going through my Dvorak collection and have culled out some duplicate recordings and decided to replace a few - now on the Dvorak Symphonies - I own the top 3 shown below which appear to be some 'favorites' in this discussion - BUT, just wondering about anything new and/or improved - the Kertesz recordings have been remastered by Decca and expanded (bottom, left) and yet again even w/ a BD (bottom, middle) - this latter set has received some superlative reviews but seems to be unavailable, i.e. OOP - one used copy is on sale for $800 USD in the Amazon MP!
[snip]
Dave
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mdrcG8-WL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tay1ZKhOL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517BrZMW-zL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/717GyyYR2SL._SL1400_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714QSg-Ka5L._SL1400_.jpg)
I have the old 6-disc Kertesz set (top-left image), and was wondering if the 9-disc "Collector's Edition" (bottom-left image) is remastered? The above post suggests that it is, but a review on Amazon implies that the first 6 discs may be identical to the old 6-disc set. Can anyone who owns both please confirm?
It's a shame the latest set (bottom-middle image) with the Blu-ray disc is already OOP.
Quote from: Daverz on February 05, 2020, 11:58:31 AM
Sorry, checking my drive, I got confused again about what I've actually downloaded and what I've listened to on Qobuz. There's not much difference in my playback interface between local files and files streamed from Qobuz.
https://open.qobuz.com/album/0002894830760
Qobuz also sells downloads to subsribers, and if you have their Sublime service the hi-res files are $40 (I have a lower $15/month service that allows me to listen to anything and download CD quality files, but without that steep discount)......................
Thanks
Dave for the information above! :)
Interesting about that Kertesz cycle available in hi-res from Presto, thankyou.
If ever a recording deserved to be lovingly remastered, it is these - such great music-making, and fundamentally very well recorded by Decca - but it was not perfect, the recordings were always a bit presence-y with a bit of a glare from the violins in particular. One reviewer at the time famously remarked (of the 8th I think, which is the earliest recording of the set) that it sounded as if it had been recorded in a zinc-tank. This led to ridicule from other reviewers who demanded to know, what is a zinc-tank anyway? Be that as it may, the problem undoubtedly exists.
My favourites in this Kertesz cycle are nos. 5 and 6, so I've shaken the moths out of my wallet and sprung for the hi-res flacs of just the 1st movement of each of these. (I don't see any logical way that hi-res can bring anything to the party for recordings of this vintage, but hey, it was only 2 tracks.) I've just had a listen to No.5 (which always was a slightly brighter recording than No.6, which latter is possibly the best-recorded of the whole cycle) - and, well, you don't have to trust these old ears which are well past their 'best by' date, but to me the hi-res flac is indistinguishable from my own needledrop of the original vinyl. The original presence-y sound, faithfully reproduced here.
Easy to forget that the Kertesz and Rowicki cycles were recorded concurrently (Rowicki on Philips) and both with the LSO - those musicians must have been playing Dvorak in their sleep by the end of it all!
I love Pappano's "New World" Symphony (and the cello concerto with M. Brunello as soloist):
[asin]B008R9QAVY[/asin]
Quote from: aukhawk on February 06, 2020, 02:11:55 AM
Interesting about that Kertesz cycle available in hi-res from Presto, thankyou.
If ever a recording deserved to be lovingly remastered, it is these - such great music-making, and fundamentally very well recorded by Decca - but it was not perfect, the recordings were always a bit presence-y with a bit of a glare from the violins in particular. One reviewer at the time famously remarked (of the 8th I think, which is the earliest recording of the set) that it sounded as if it had been recorded in a zinc-tank. This led to ridicule from other reviewers who demanded to know, what is a zinc-tank anyway? Be that as it may, the problem undoubtedly exists.
My favourites in this Kertesz cycle are nos. 5 and 6, so I've shaken the moths out of my wallet and sprung for the hi-res flacs of just the 1st movement of each of these. (I don't see any logical way that hi-res can bring anything to the party for recordings of this vintage, but hey, it was only 2 tracks.) I've just had a listen to No.5 (which always was a slightly brighter recording than No.6, which latter is possibly the best-recorded of the whole cycle) - and, well, you don't have to trust these old ears which are well past their 'best by' date, but to me the hi-res flac is indistinguishable from my own needledrop of the original vinyl. The original presence-y sound, faithfully reproduced here.
Easy to forget that the Kertesz and Rowicki cycles were recorded concurrently (Rowicki on Philips) and both with the LSO - those musicians must have been playing Dvorak in their sleep by the end of it all!
Very interesting post, thanks for that! I sometimes feel Kertesz is too forceful (nos 6 and 8 in particular) or maybe it's the orchestra/recording that make them appear that way. That being said I consider his recordings of nos 5 and 7 just perfect. In comparison it's Rowicki in no 5 that appears too forceful, certainly not letting the music breathe as it should (although Youtube may not be the best way to experience a recording's qualities). While I consider the 5th to be a bucolic/rustic work, others see more drama than I think is in there. I heard it in concert (Jacob Hrusa) and it was both rousing and beguiling, a great performance. Kertesz replicates this experience best IMO.
Dvorak symphonies discography from Musicweb. 60 pages of listings, no comments on performances.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Ntl_discogs/Balkan_symphonies/Dvorak_symphonies.pdf (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Ntl_discogs/Balkan_symphonies/Dvorak_symphonies.pdf)
I wrote:
Quote from: aukhawk on February 06, 2020, 02:11:55 AM
Interesting about that Kertesz cycle available in hi-res from Presto, thankyou.
My favourites in this Kertesz cycle are nos. 5 and 6, so I've shaken the moths out of my wallet and sprung for the hi-res flacs of just the 1st movement of each of these. (I don't see any logical way that hi-res can bring anything to the party for recordings of this vintage, but hey, it was only 2 tracks.) I've just had a listen to No.5 (which always was a slightly brighter recording than No.6, which latter is possibly the best-recorded of the whole cycle) - and, well, you don't have to trust these old ears which are well past their 'best by' date, but to me the hi-res flac is indistinguishable from my own needledrop of the original vinyl. The original presence-y sound, faithfully reproduced here.
Further to this, in some idle moments I've done a bit of
visual analysis of one of these 24/96 files from Presto (
Symphony 6, 1st movement), comparing it with my own needledrop plus four other digital files of the same recording, including a 16/44 flac also sourced from Presto, of the 2003 reissue (that appeared as a twofer of Symphonies 4,5 and 6) and also including one file representing the 2014 'Collectors' reissue. These were
visual comparisons using software on my laptop - I've already established to my own satisfaction that I can't
hear any differences.
I've made a lot of detailed notes but the bottom line is - (1) I can see no significant difference between the 2003 reissue and the 2014 'Collectors' reissue, both 16/44 flac.
(2) the 2016 24/96 file does have some 'interesting' characteristics which set it apart from all the others. Uniquely, it has some apparent music-related energy above 20KHz - not much, but it is there. I was surprised, given the age of the recording and surely any original tapes will be dust 50 years later.
Also, relative to the other files the sound has been processed using both mild compression (to make it sound louder) and low-level expansion (to lower the ambient noise floor, eg between movements). Like I say, compared with my needledrop (which being vinyl is also slightly 'naturally' compressed) I didn't hear any difference - until I noticed some surface noise.
The other four files - which included a Spotify stream - were a match for each other within the limits of my measurements (ie to within 0.2dB) - and all showed about 5dB more dynamic in the louder passages, than the HR version. (In practice this means that overall they sound quieter.)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81RD1Bl1A3L._SS500_.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6phTFDYL/dvorak-symphony-no-9-from-the-new-world-sibelius-symphony-no-2-b.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
1959
Arguably not a "great" New World; but one of my first Dvorak recordings and the Detroit Symphony is only a half hour down the road. A fleet, dry, very "French" interpretation; unfortunately the first movement is barely over six minutes because Paray omits the repeat-- a common practice in earlier recordings of the symphony. (https://postimages.org/)
Useful thread, I've got my eye on Rowicki and Suitner now...
Question: Is there any edition of Rowicki that manages to avoid splitting symphonies across CDs? Symphony no.2 in particular seems to be split in any of the CD versions I've seen.
I'll cast another vote for the Fricsay 9th. I also like Toscanini from 1953.
Quote from: Madiel on December 30, 2020, 08:31:36 PM
Useful thread, I've got my eye on Rowicki and Suitner now...
Question: Is there any edition of Rowicki that manages to avoid splitting symphonies across CDs? Symphony no.2 in particular seems to be split in any of the CD versions I've seen.
No I don't think there is. Although different editions programme the music in different ways on each disc, Symphony 2 seems to get the short (spilt) straw. But these are fine performances (as are Suitner although a different style) and worth the 'compromise'. I just think back to LP days when every piece split in the middle regardless! (Strauss Alpine was my favourite......)
Quote from: Madiel on December 30, 2020, 08:31:36 PM
Question: Is there any edition of Rowicki that manages to avoid splitting symphonies across CDs? Symphony no.2 in particular seems to be split in any of the CD versions I've seen.
Not that I know of. Only good way to listen to them seems to be to rip the CDs to FLAC or ALAC tracks. (Digital downloads from Decca/Deutsche Grammophon are invariably suspect, as a large number of them have audible digital watermarking.)
Quote from: Holden on December 31, 2020, 12:45:56 AM
I'll cast another vote for the Fricsay 9th. I also like Toscanini from 1953.
There are two Fricsay 9ths, one mono, one stereo (more easily available these days, I believe). I am not sure I ever heard the earlier one but it seems in the Toscaninian lean and mean mode (like his early tchaikovsky 4-6) whereas the stereo "New world" is considerably broader.
The 9th, and also 7+8 seem to have received plenty of good recordings. for most of the rest, especially 1-4 one usually needs to buy complete recordings. While browsing I think Anguelov has #2 without a break.
Rowicki's is among the ones with only a single symphony split (in my Kertesz box both 2 and 5 are split).
As was mentioned, in the LP days often movements had to be split and discs turned around. (Frankly, I don't much care for Dvorak's 1+2, so I am not bothered much by the splits, although in a day where the manufacturing cost of discs is minimal one could easily avoid splits.)
Quote from: amw on December 31, 2020, 12:55:27 AM
Not that I know of. Only good way to listen to them seems to be to rip the CDs to FLAC or ALAC tracks. (Digital downloads from Decca/Deutsche Grammophon are invariably suspect, as a large number of them have audible digital watermarking.)
This is clumsy presentation from Decca. The Rowicki cycle is padded out with overtures and takes six CDs. I would rather have had fewer overtures (or none) and an unsplit No 2. The recent Decca Belohlavek cycle also takes six CDs and has the three concertos with no works split.
This is all too common, unfortunately. Especially with the "padding" it should not be too hard to pad unsplit symphonies with ouvertures/symphonic poems etc. Most irritating is the Silvestri box where they split a Tchaikowsky symphony although they have a whole additional disc of shorter Russian pieces and with redistribution all three symphonies could have been unsplit.
Quote from: amw on December 31, 2020, 12:55:27 AM
Not that I know of. Only good way to listen to them seems to be to rip the CDs to FLAC or ALAC tracks. (Digital downloads from Decca/Deutsche Grammophon are invariably suspect, as a large number of them have audible digital watermarking.)
Yes, I've done the occasional ripping to put things back together (although in most cases this is actually for something that is longer than a single CD in any case).
Recently mentioned here but I've been revisiting the earlier/analogue Neumann/Czech PO cycle on Supraphon. I've been re-ripping them to a hard drive as FLAC files and the performances are superb. Full of personality and character. Just a touch of harsh edge mixed in with the reverb of the hall but for music-making of this calibre I'm happy!
(https://www.bolha.com/image-bigger/vinili/dvorak-symphonies-czech-philharmonic-orchestra-8-lp-supraphon-slika-15947735.jpg)
Quote from: Madiel on December 31, 2020, 01:37:45 AM
Yes, I've done the occasional ripping to put things back together (although in most cases this is actually for something that is longer than a single CD in any case).
I used to move files around so that all movements of a work were in one directory. But Logitech Media Server has a feature where it will treat multiple disc sets as one "album". It's then easy to select the movements of the work you want to play (see attachment at bottom). There is also the Custom Browse plugin that allows you to browse by composer and work, but that requires a lot of, um... work to tag things properly.
TD: One 9th I'd like to hear is Levine (yes, the conductor who had his own sex abuse cult). Based on how brilliant his Chicago Brahms is, it should be an experience. Next time I'm in the mood for a 9th.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Fe0J4%2ByCL._SX522_.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsnYBc2s/14113.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
1959 rec.
Another endorsement of the Fricsay, if only because I remember listening to it as a kid while lying on the floor and holding a cheap six transistor a.m. pocket radio up to an electrical outlet (to act as an antenna) so I could catch its broadcast from somewhere in Iowa. (https://bettafishcaretaker.com/bloated-stomach-on-betta-fish-health-issue)
I'm just bumping this thread at the prompt of Madiel for the recent interest and discussion on Dvořák symphonies.
From the Neumann set I have nos 4-6. Supraphon foolishly packaged the symphonies in bulky 2 cd cases with 3 symphonies each, one of them split between discs. That's about as inconvenient as it gets. If I could get them in a space saving box with no splits I'd get it in no time.
Of course they can be purchased in the complete set of orchestral works, but that means buying 9 discs with the overtures and tone poems - for which I prefer Chalabala and Harnoncourt.
In light of the recent discussion, I am strongly considering getting the Kertesz set of symphonies, to contrast and supplement the Pesek set I have.
Kertesz/LPO/Decca seems to be on the swifter side of things, which I generally seem to prefer in a lot of works. Plus, I am a huge, HUGE fan of Kertesz' Schubert set of symphonies (Vienna Phil) because of their brisk, energetic tempos.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 25, 2021, 05:06:18 AM
In light of the recent discussion, I am strongly considering getting the Kertesz set of symphonies, to contrast and supplement the Pesek set I have.
Kertesz/LPO/Decca seems to be on the swifter side of things, which I generally seem to prefer in a lot of works. Plus, I am a huge, HUGE fan of Kertesz' Schubert set of symphonies (Vienna Phil) because of their brisk, energetic tempos.
The
Kertesz was my first
Dvořák set, but it's a while since I listened to it, I should rustle it up.
Kertesz' accounts of 5, 7 and 9 have claims to be top choices - or at least top 3.
Quote from: André on March 25, 2021, 05:03:21 AM
From the Neumann set I have nos 4-6. Supraphon foolishly packaged the symphonies in bulky 2 cd cases with 3 symphonies each, one of them split between discs. That's about as inconvenient as it gets. If I could get them in a space saving box with no splits I'd get it in no time.
Of course they can be purchased in the complete set of orchestral works, but that means buying 9 discs with the overtures and tone poems - for which I prefer Chalabala and Harnoncourt.
You might mean different cycles? I believe the Supraphon Neumann set that came out with big numbers on the covers, 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, is digital, and the purple box with the complete overtures and tone poems (but not fully complete orchestral works) is analog.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 25, 2021, 05:06:18 AM
In light of the recent discussion, I am strongly considering getting the Kertesz set of symphonies, to contrast and supplement the Pesek set I have.
Kertesz/LPO/Decca seems to be on the swifter side of things, which I generally seem to prefer in a lot of works. Plus, I am a huge, HUGE fan of Kertesz' Schubert set of symphonies (Vienna Phil) because of their brisk, energetic tempos.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 25, 2021, 07:18:37 AM
The Kertesz was my first Dvořák set, but it's a while since I listened to it, I should rustle it up.
Kertesz was my first set also of these symphonies - I have the 6-disc box below (first image); much more recently a newer restoration appeared w/ added material increasing to a 9-disc box, including a BD (second image) - the differences in sound quality are described as substantial (see attached reviews of both sets) - unfortunately, seems to be OOP! Hope that the new one is reprinted or possibly licensed to Brilliant? :( 8) Dave
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mdrcG8-WL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 25, 2021, 08:37:31 AM
Kertesz was my first set also of these symphonies - I have the 6-disc box below (first image); much more recently a newer restoration appeared w/ added material increasing to a 9-disc box, including a BD (second image) - the differences in sound quality are described as substantial (see attached reviews of both sets) - unfortunately, seems to be OOP! Hope that the new one is reprinted or possibly licensed to Brilliant? :( 8) Dave
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mdrcG8-WL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL1200_.jpg)
Thanks Dave. Actually, the one I was eyeing was this one below. Not sure which one is recommended or the best (sound quality wise)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81YIqcPvsSL._SL1417_.jpg)
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 25, 2021, 08:41:20 AM
Thanks Dave. Actually, the one I was eyeing was this one below. Not sure which one is recommended or the best (sound quality wise)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81YIqcPvsSL._SL1417_.jpg)
Hi
Ray - I suspect that the box above are the same 6 discs that are in my collection but w/ 3 added discs to include the rest of Kertesz's recordings w/ the LSO (I also have his 2-CD set of the Symphonic Poems but not the Requiem); BTW, I've attached an updated review PDF including a new one from MusicWeb; the reviewer there was not as impressed w/ the restoration as the Fanfare guy and complained about the packaging, so you might be just as well off w/ the older non-restored recordings? Dave :)
Quote from: Brian on March 25, 2021, 08:09:01 AM
You might mean different cycles? I believe the Supraphon Neumann set that came out with big numbers on the covers, 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, is digital, and the purple box with the complete overtures and tone poems (but not fully complete orchestral works) is analog.
Quite right Brian - the analog set is far superior in musical terms. Neumann sounds a bit routine in the remake
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 25, 2021, 09:45:49 AM
Hi Ray - I suspect that the box above are the same 6 discs that are in my collection but w/ 3 added discs to include the rest of Kertesz's recordings w/ the LSO (I also have his 2-CD set of the Symphonic Poems but not the Requiem); BTW, I've attached an updated review PDF including a new one from MusicWeb; the reviewer there was not as impressed w/ the restoration as the Fanfare guy and complained about the packaging, so you might be just as well off w/ the older non-restored recordings? Dave :)
Thanks for sharing that, Dave. It sounds like I should buy the 9 discs + Blue Ray reissue (the one with the pastoral/peasant scene cover portrait) because of the improvements in sound. Ie. Not the red and white Decca set image I posted.
The red and white set comes from a product line I find kinda cheaply made - the CD sleeves just list the work titles and not track numbers or times or the total number of tracks...just a personal pet peeve, I know other people don't mind, so I would say don't let that sway your decision. Certainly my Kertesz copy is annoying in its own way also! It's the OG (first image) which is two plastic boxes in a slipcover which are sandwiching FOUR chunks of cardboard because they made the slipcover too big...good grief!
Quote from: Brian on March 25, 2021, 08:09:01 AM
You might mean different cycles? I believe the Supraphon Neumann set that came out with big numbers on the covers, 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 7-8-9, is digital, and the purple box with the complete overtures and tone poems (but not fully complete orchestral works) is analog.
So there are two Neumann cycles on Supraphon ? Didn't know that... The plot thickens, then. I always thought they were the same performances. There are other Neumann/Dvorak discs on Exton. Are they the same as the Supraphons ? How konfewzing... ???
Mine are the ones with those big numbers, with symphony 5 split btw discs. The 'much inferior' performances, then... ::)
Quote from: André on March 25, 2021, 04:10:14 PM
So there are two Neumann cycles on Supraphon ? Didn't know that... The plot thickens, then. I always thought they were the same performances. There are other Neumann/Dvorak discs on Exton. Are they the same as the Supraphons ? How konfewzing... ???
Mine are the ones with those big numbers, with symphony 5 split btw discs. The 'much inferior' performances, then... ::)
I can't speak to either inferiority (haven't heard the "numbers" cycle) or Exton recordings, but the original, "purple" Supraphon cycle dates from 1971-73, and the "numbers" set was recorded from 1981-87, with a fairly big gap between the later symphonies (recorded first) and the earlier ones (recorded after 85). Comparing the '73ish CzPO under Neumann to the '93ish CzPO under Pesek, I hear a definite change in the sound of the orchestra's winds and horn playing, but don't know if that is true of the later Neumann recordings.
Looks like I'll go for the Supraphon box of the analog recordings, then ;).
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 25, 2021, 09:45:49 AM
Hi Ray - I suspect that the box above are the same 6 discs that are in my collection but w/ 3 added discs to include the rest of Kertesz's recordings w/ the LSO (I also have his 2-CD set of the Symphonic Poems but not the Requiem); BTW, I've attached an updated review PDF including a new one from MusicWeb; the reviewer there was not as impressed w/ the restoration as the Fanfare guy and complained about the packaging, so you might be just as well off w/ the older non-restored recordings? Dave :)
I wouldn't bother with a new issue, if you have most/all of the material and/or the missing stuff is available separately. I have the box with Dvorak's portrait (sturdy box, standard paper/cardboard sleeves) and I think the sound is very good. I have only parts of the Rowicki (4-6) and Kubelik (7-9) cycle (together with Neumann probably the three 60s/70s "classics") and Kertesz has IMO the best sound of them. Rowicki is also in very good sound, though.
But for those getting boxes anyway, I'd like to point out that the symphonic poems (esp. the late 4), the variations and also the ouvertures are well worth getting (IMO most of these shorter works are more important than the first 2 or even first 4 symphonies). There is a cheapish DG twofer with Kubelik that covers most of them.
As performances, the Kertesz cycle is wonderful. Glass-half-full sort of music.
Setting aside for a moment the HD 'remaster' version, I don't believe there is any difference to be heard between any of the other Decca-branded CD releases, either singles, twofers or cycles. They all faithfully reproduce the good but slightly bright and glarey sound-world of the original vinyl releases, as commented upon by reviewers at the time of their release - with added digital clarity.
By comparison with these, the HD remaster has been subjected to some processing, which is more visible (on close analysis with visual software) than audible, I'd say. The difference isn't really noticeable except maybe on a straight A/B switch in a few selected passages - basically it is still a faithful reproduction of that original good but bright sound-world. If anything I'd say it's closer to the original vinyl sound than the CD transfers were - but fine margins, nothing worth paying extra for.
Having lived with and enjoyed the Kertesz recordings ever since they were released (!!), I would now put in a word for Belohlavek - quite a contrast really, warmer, more affectionate, more relaxed. And of course more modern sound.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714QSg-Ka5L._AC_SL1400_.jpg)
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Turns out I can't seem to find a decent very good condition set of the Kertesz (in any of the three formats) at a reasonable price.
How about Rowicki? How does this set compare to Kertesz (ie. performance energy, tempos, sound quality?)
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 26, 2021, 04:23:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Turns out I can't seem to find a decent very good condition set of the Kertesz (in any of the three formats) at a reasonable price.
How about Rowicki? How does this set compare to Kertesz (ie. performance energy, tempos, sound quality?)
Actually very similar in sound and energy - same label (now) and orchestra - similar tempos, two of the rare conductors to take the repeat in 6.i. Rowicki is sometimes a little too fast (5) but since you have Pesek, you have the perfect corrective to a too-fast version. Rowicki does use an alternative edition of 2 with some major changes, and the booklet does not explain this at all, but this is true pro-level complaining ;D Overall, a set I would recommend fairly highly. The Third Symphony funeral march is a jaw-dropper and all the scherzos are perfect.
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2021, 05:14:16 AM
Actually very similar in sound and energy - same label (now) and orchestra - similar tempos, two of the rare conductors to take the repeat in 6.i. Rowicki is sometimes a little too fast (5) but since you have Pesek, you have the perfect corrective to a too-fast version. Rowicki does use an alternative edition of 2 with some major changes, and the booklet does not explain this at all, but this is true pro-level complaining ;D Overall, a set I would recommend fairly highly. The Third Symphony funeral march is a jaw-dropper and all the scherzos are perfect.
Sold! :D
As you said, I am looking for a contrast to Pesek. Sounds like Rowicki is a sure bet if I can't find Kertesz. I like peppy and brisk.
Oh well.....it looks like I am SOL for both Kertesz and Rowicki. Can't find a good quality set of those at a humanly decent price.
:( :(
Suitner?!
I have to imagine we're only a year or two away from a large Kertesz Complete Recordings box.
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2021, 05:52:02 AM
:( :(
Suitner?!
I have to imagine we're only a year or two away from a large Kertesz Complete Recordings box.
Maybe. I keep going back and forth between all the recommendations here and Hurwitz' video on the symphony cycles. I'm mulling about it. ;D
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 26, 2021, 05:55:03 AM
Maybe. I keep going back and forth between all the recommendations here and Hurwitz' video on the symphony cycles. I'm mulling about it. ;D
The lucky thing is that there really are not too many Dvorak symphony cycles, and some of them (Gunzenhauser, Chichon/Inkinen, Valek, Serebrier) can be safely ignored. So you don't have a ton of choices to make things complicated, especially if half are unavailable ;D
(Actually only Gunzenhauser's 7 and 8 are
really bad, he is very good in 2, 5, 6, and 9, but the sound quality is ratty - anyway, that $45 Naxos "complete orchestral works" box is still a possibility, maybe.)
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2021, 05:52:02 AM
:( :(
Suitner?!
I have to imagine we're only a year or two away from a large Kertesz Complete Recordings box.
Hmm, regarding Suitner, I might be put off by the screeching chair in the scherzo to the 4th symphony (one of my favourite Dvorak movements!!) ;D
Kubelik?
Anguelov? (Hurwitz' sleeper pick)
Neumann apparently is more bucolic/restrained (in the vein of Pesek), so likely don't want that if I want a contrast to Pesek.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 26, 2021, 06:35:49 AM
Hmm, regarding Suitner, I might be put off by the screeching chair in the scherzo to the 4th symphony (one of my favourite Dvorak movements!!) ;D
Kubelik?
Anguelov? (Hurwitz' sleeper pick)
Neumann apparently is more bucolic/restrained (in the vein of Pesek), so likely don't want that if I want a contrast to Pesek.
Ahh, maybe I ought to try Suitner. It is dirt cheap and available.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 26, 2021, 06:38:02 AM
Ahh, maybe I ought to try Suitner. It is dirt cheap and available.
Hi again
Ray - frustrating, I know - have been looking for that 9-disc 'improved' Decca box for a while - Amazon USA is of no help - have tried my two usual 'across the pond' websites, i.e. PrestoClassical & JPC - below are screen captures; JPC is offering the older 9-disc box at a decent price but S&H will add to the cost; Presto has the same physical box but apparently 'not in stock' - now DLs are offered @ the latter, but if I wanted that 'new' 9-disc box, FLAC would be the way to go which I've not worked w/ much at all (have been doing MP3 DLs for years and burning CD-Rs).
Now there has been only brief mention of the Jiri Belohlavek box - I own Kertesz, Rowicki, & Suitner - if I wanted to replace one, my choice would be the Suitner - SO, I'd be curious about comments from others concerning the Belohlavek box? Dave :)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WBtr6kX/0/2416ba90/M/DvorakKertesz1-M.png)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-f5s3VFX/0/a75d14ca/L/DvorakKertesz2-L.png)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714QSg-Ka5L._SL1400_.jpg)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 26, 2021, 07:55:03 AM
SO, I'd be curious about comments from others concerning the Belohlavek box? Dave :)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/714QSg-Ka5L._SL1400_.jpg)
I can't comment as I haven't heard them, but David Hurwitz calls the performances of the symphonies "duller than ditch water/dish water", although he praises the performances of the concertos in the set. But of course, that's one opinion. I generally tend to agree with his opinions. He was disappointed because he expected a lot more from Belohlavek.
From what I've heard and sampled, Belohlavek falls more in the style of Pesek where everything is more relaxed, a bit slower, more lyrical rather than rhythmical. I don't own it though.
Maybe this afternoon I'll put on Suitner's Fourth and listen for that chair.
I've heard all the sets excepting the first Neumann. They are all fine and that includes Belohlavek. For a complete set I suppose Rowicki is my favorite.
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2021, 08:39:43 AM
Maybe this afternoon I'll put on Suitner's Fourth and listen for that chair.
:D I could be relatively imperceptible. Please report back if you do. :)
Various iterations of the Kertesz set are certainly available via Presto, but perhaps not as cut-price as they should be (given that, back in the day, they were offered at super-bargain price, one of the first bargain box sets from Decca, along with the Sibelius/Maazel symphony cycle similarly cut price).
Belohlavek I regard as a very good 'alternative' alongside Kertesz (meaning, I think they are quite different and complement each other), to my ears it's a genial, more lyrical approach and of course the sound is unproblematic.
If I could only have one, then it would have to be Kertesz who is more driven, and takes this music to another level of 'happiness'. For me there are issues with the sound though - the cycle was recorded over some years in the same venue and the earliest recordings (the 8th in 1963, then the 7th a year later) are a bit difficult to listen to, I find. By the time of the 5th and 6th though, a couple of years later, the same distinctive sound signature is tamed and refined, and presents no real problems. These two are my favourites out of Kertesz' cycle - if you can find the inexpensive twofer of the 4th, 5th, 6th that's a great option to have. The remaining symphonies were recorded later still.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81RD1Bl1A3L._SS500_.jpg)
Rowicki interestingly recorded with the same orchestra but a different venue, overlapping a slightly later range of recording dates - the two 6ths were recorded in the same year, Rowicki first - the LSO must have been playing Dvorak in their sleep through the '60s ....
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2021, 05:57:04 AM
(Actually only Gunzenhauser's 7 and 8 are really bad, he is very good in 2, 5, 6, and 9, but the sound quality is ratty - anyway, that $45 Naxos "complete orchestral works" box is still a possibility, maybe.)
Hmmm, it is a consideration. The complete orchestral works box sounds tantalizing (David Hurwitz praised it highly, outside of the symphonies, although he didn't outright dismiss them.) That video was an interesting one. 17 discs for that price is quite a bargain.
Leaning towards not getting it, but it is on the backburner of my mind, stewing and simmering. 8)
Quote from: Brian on March 26, 2021, 05:57:04 AM
The lucky thing is that there really are not too many Dvorak symphony cycles, and some of them (Gunzenhauser, Chichon/Inkinen, Valek, Serebrier) can be safely ignored. So you don't have a ton of choices to make things complicated, especially if half are unavailable ;D
(Actually only Gunzenhauser's 7 and 8 are really bad, he is very good in 2, 5, 6, and 9, but the sound quality is ratty - anyway, that $45 Naxos "complete orchestral works" box is still a possibility, maybe.)
Not sure I'd say Serebrier can be "safely ignored". Also, the Jarvi SNO cycle is pretty good and then there is an older Kosler/Slovak PO which sounds very authentic too. I liked the Chichon recordings of the early symphonies - direct and unfussy - but thought Inkinen simply dull. At the end of the day Kertesz is
probably the cycle that will please most of the people most of the time (but I'd go for Neumann's analogue if I could only have oe)
I haven't really heard any especially bad recordings of the Dvořák symphonies, and I've listened to a fair few. The ones I revisit the most often:
Neumann purple box—the most well balanced performances overall
Järvi Scotland—I was not expecting to like this but it is fast and exciting and in good sound (and makes Symphony No. 1 sound good)
Kertész London—overall the best performances, but the iteration I have is pretty badly brickwalled
Plus:
Bělohlávek BBC 5 & 6 - better than his Czech remake
Šejna 5 - you cannot go wrong with Karel Šejna in general
Hengelbrock 4 -
Dohnányi Cleveland 6, 7 & 8 - if you like that sort of thing
Chung Vienna 3, 4, 7 & 8, although I wasn't as impressed with the disc of 4 & 8 as I was with the disc of 3 & 7
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 26, 2021, 10:04:23 AM
Not sure I'd say Serebrier can be "safely ignored". Also, the Jarvi SNO cycle is pretty good and then there is an older Kosler/Slovak PO which sounds very authentic too. I liked the Chichon recordings of the early symphonies - direct and unfussy - but thought Inkinen simply dull. At the end of the day Kertesz is probably the cycle that will please most of the people most of the time (but I'd go for Neumann's analogue if I could only have oe)
I have that in a Brilliant release. It is incomplete in that the 8th is conducted by Menuhin and the 9th by Paavo Järvi, both with the RPO. I find it good to superb, this latter epithet applying to the 7th symphony. I was curious to hear Kosler in the last two (he has recorded them), so I recently bought the 8th, also with the Slovak PO. It is as good as his 7th. Haven't heard the 9th though. Considering they exist and were recorded with the same orchestra I don't understand why Brilliant chose to exclude them from the set, though. The tone poems are included. Not a first or even second choice, but some great performances from Kosler and characterful playing from the Slovak Phil.
Quote from: André on March 27, 2021, 05:31:50 AM
I have that in a Brilliant release. It is incomplete in that the 8th is conducted by Menuhin and the 9th by Paavo Järvi, both with the RPO. I find it good to superb, this latter epithet applying to the 7th symphony. I was curious to hear Kosler in the last two (he has recorded them), so I recently bought the 8th, also with the Slovak PO. It is as good as his 7th. Haven't heard the 9th though. Considering they exist and were recorded with the same orchestra I don't understand why Brilliant chose to exclude them from the set, though. The tone poems are included. Not a first or even second choice, but some great performances from Kosler and characterful playing from the Slovak Phil.
Andre - I did exactly the same - tracking down the "missing" 8&9. The rest of your evaluation I would say is spot-on. I got it in that big 40 disc Brilliant box which has some very fine recordings alongside some pretty average ones. The String Quartets are excellent and (from memory) I like the Slovak PO/Kosler Stabat Mater too which has some real Slavic fervour in the choral singing. The Jarvi No.9 is one of the most perverse performances of any standard work I can remember hearing!
Funny ! Why would they do that ? My set of the symphonies is a standalone box with individual cds. I also have Kosler's Requiem and Stabat Mater. The Requiem is quite fine but not on the level of Sawallisch or Ancerl, while the SM is one of the best, on a par with Smetacek - more consolatory, less desolate, a slightly different POV then.
Quote from: André on March 27, 2021, 12:11:46 PM
Funny ! Why would they do that ? My set of the symphonies is a standalone box with individual cds. I also have Kosler's Requiem and Stabat Mater. The Requiem is quite fine but not on the level of Sawallisch or Ancerl, while the SM is one of the best, on a par with Smetacek - more consolatory, less desolate, a slightly different POV then.
The Stabat Mater is a great work full stop! There is something about Slavic choirs who bring an intensity and fervour to their singing that lifts music to quite another realm. Kosler achieves that. I have the Smetacek version but in all honesty don't remember much about it so I'll put that right as soon as I can!
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 26, 2021, 04:23:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Turns out I can't seem to find a decent very good condition set of the Kertesz (in any of the three formats) at a reasonable price.
How about Rowicki? How does this set compare to Kertesz (ie. performance energy, tempos, sound quality?)
There's a "Used-very good" one here for about $30. https://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Symphonies-Anton%C3%ADn-Dvořák/dp/B0000041WV/ref=pd_sbs_3?pd_rd_w=HNVVH&pf_rd_p=2419a049-62bf-452e-b0d0-ca5b7e35a7b4&pf_rd_r=Y63C2GB3Z0X78CCQR4NC&pd_rd_r=3c1e4854-11f5-4309-894f-ae5879191a2b&pd_rd_wg=Y1CPn&pd_rd_i=B0000041WV&psc=1
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on March 27, 2021, 03:22:15 PM
There's a "Used-very good" one here for about $30. https://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Symphonies-Anton%C3%ADn-Dvořák/dp/B0000041WV/ref=pd_sbs_3?pd_rd_w=HNVVH&pf_rd_p=2419a049-62bf-452e-b0d0-ca5b7e35a7b4&pf_rd_r=Y63C2GB3Z0X78CCQR4NC&pd_rd_r=3c1e4854-11f5-4309-894f-ae5879191a2b&pd_rd_wg=Y1CPn&pd_rd_i=B0000041WV&psc=1
PD
Yes, thank you PD. I think I may have come across that one. I will keep that one under consideration.
Re: this
(https://img.discogs.com/ryBGsdm74-YhMbd409pFwY5L8Jk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-4952263-1392010411-2912.png.jpg)
I've attached a very detailed review for those interested.
Quote from: Florestan on March 28, 2021, 05:54:34 AM
Re: this
(https://img.discogs.com/ryBGsdm74-YhMbd409pFwY5L8Jk=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-4952263-1392010411-2912.png.jpg)
I've attached a very detailed review for those interested.
Yes
Andrei, I am tempted by this, particularly for some of the lesser known works.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 28, 2021, 05:58:13 AM
Yes Andrei, I am tempted by this, particularly for some of the lesser known works.
I have it but haven't listened to it in its entirety. Whatever I've heard, though, I liked (precisely some lesser known works).
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 26, 2021, 05:51:07 AM
Oh well.....it looks like I am SOL for both Kertesz and Rowicki. Can't find a good quality set of those at a humanly decent price.
The 9-disc non-remastered Kertesz set from 2014 is available from Amazon UK (~ £34) and Presto Classical (~ £42):
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAzNzUyMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0Njk0NDMwOTR9)
From what I've read, it seems to have the same mastering as the old 6-disc "portrait" set which I own. The sound on this is reasonable for mid 1960s.
Quote from: bluto32 on March 29, 2021, 04:20:21 AM
The 9-disc non-remastered Kertesz set from 2014 is available from Amazon UK (~ £34) and Presto Classical (~ £42):
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAzNzUyMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0Njk0NDMwOTR9)
From what I've read, it seems to have the same mastering as the old 6-disc "portrait" set which I own. The sound on this is reasonable for mid 1960s.
Thanks,
Bluto.
I did end up placing an order for a used (very good condition) copy of the original London 6-disc set from Amazon Canada at an ok price.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on March 29, 2021, 07:27:47 AM
Thanks, Bluto.
I did end up placing an order for a used (very good condition) copy of the original London 6-disc set from Amazon Canada at an ok price.
(https://st3.depositphotos.com/1007168/14190/v/600/depositphotos_141905252-stock-illustration-emoticon-cartoon-mascot.jpg)
Ray - same set that I've own a long time - you should be pleased. Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 29, 2021, 07:34:47 AM
(https://st3.depositphotos.com/1007168/14190/v/600/depositphotos_141905252-stock-illustration-emoticon-cartoon-mascot.jpg) Ray - same set that I've own a long time - you should be pleased. Dave :)
Thanks Dave! :)
I also ended up ordering the Suitner, Kubelik and the Naxos complete orchestral works. :D I went a bit crazy, but it has been a "project on the backburner" to re-discover Dvorak that I finally felt ready to start.
I don't think anyone's been mentioning the box that started my Dvorak collection:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cu3Nrb1iL._SX425_.jpg)
Contents include Harnoncourt's performances of Symphonies 7-9 and the Erben tone poems, which seem to be widely liked.
Also scores points from me for actually presenting In Nature's Realm / Carnival / Othello together, which doesn't happen often enough.
What a delightful thread! Adding my two
halíře (that's what we call cents over here):
Rowicki for the early symphonies,
Kubelík for the late, and to paraphrase an old Czech saying, while those two argue,
Suitner laughs – I just wish the sound was better.
Otherwise, as John C. preached years ago:
Quote from: John Copeland on September 24, 2013, 03:04:34 PM
Suitner was one of the finest conductors - what a shame he is less known than some conductors these days because he was far better than most. If you get a chance, have a listen to his controlled dynamics - he really knew how to make an Orchestra sound brilliant. There's a Beethoven 9 out there by him which is also outstanding...
I want to love both
Neumann and
Kertesz but my heart doesn't agree with their tempi.
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 17, 2022, 06:54:28 AM
What a delightful thread! Adding my two halíře (that's what we call cents over here): Rowicki for the early symphonies, Kubelík for the late, and to paraphrase an old Czech saying, while those two argue, Suitner laughs – I just wish the sound was better.
Otherwise, as John C. preached years ago:
I want to love both Neumann and Kertesz but my heart doesn't agree with their tempi.
That's an interesting quote - I can understand that Kertesz favours generally quite fast tempi but I would have thought Neumann - especially in the analogue set - is not contoversial as far as tempo is concerned. His dgital remake was very disappointing for me - just tired and matter of fact. So apart from Suitner who do you favour?
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 18, 2022, 12:23:00 AM
That's an interesting quote - I can understand that Kertesz favours generally quite fast tempi but I would have thought Neumann - especially in the analogue set - is not contoversial as far as tempo is concerned. His dgital remake was very disappointing for me - just tired and matter of fact. So apart from Suitner who do you favour?
It is interesting to me also - Kertesz I think is actually quite similar to Rowicki in some symphonies for tempo, while I do agree with him on Neumann - mostly just too slow. The names selected in general do speak to a good sense of taste!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 18, 2022, 12:23:00 AM
That's an interesting quote - I can understand that Kertesz favours generally quite fast tempi but I would have thought Neumann - especially in the analogue set - is not contoversial as far as tempo is concerned. His dgital remake was very disappointing for me - just tired and matter of fact. So apart from Suitner who do you favour?
Oh, I wouldn't say controversial – while Neumann isn't really that slow, the orchestra
feels slow, like someone kept very, very gently pressing on a vinyl record. For example, the opening of the Sixth: with Kubelík, the theme soars. Neumann (yeah, we're talking analogue), to my impudent ears, merely floats. That said, I don't dislike it, quite the contrary! A mightily fine achievement... And same goes for Kertész.
As for other favourites,
Mackerras' 6-9 is fantastic – the loveliest Largo I've heard – and count me in the
Fricsay's Ninth camp, but I'm generally a big fan of his. It's a close competition though and there are prominent cycles I've only sampled bits and pieces from (I've yet to hear any Bělohlávek, for example).
Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2022, 06:00:11 AMThe names selected in general do speak to a good sense of taste!
Thanks, Brian! Makes me feel less like an outcast ;D
Speaking of Mackerras, this vinyl beauty was issued last August by Supraphon:
(https://i.ibb.co/nCPjNY6/dvorak.jpg) (https://www.supraphon.com/articles/354-mackerras-s-superb-dvorak)
I only have recordings of 7-9 and don't know the others very well at all, so I could do with a complete set. I'm strongly considering either Suitner or Pešek as they are both temptingly priced and seem highly regarded. One odd thing I've noticed is that a surprising amount of complete sets split symphonies between CDs, which is really annoying and completely unnecessary as none of them are that long! Unless a symphony is more than 80 minutes long there really is no excuse for this.
Quote from: Mountain Goat on January 18, 2022, 05:23:07 PM
I only have recordings of 7-9 and don't know the others very well at all, so I could do with a complete set. I'm strongly considering either Suitner or Pešek as they are both temptingly priced and seem highly regarded. One odd thing I've noticed is that a surprising amount of complete sets split symphonies between CDs, which is really annoying and completely unnecessary as none of them are that long! Unless a symphony is more than 80 minutes long there really is no excuse for this.
Absolutely Suitner of those two! Pesek is okay but a 5th choice. Suitner is especially passionate and committed in symphonies 3-6.
Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2022, 05:39:10 PM
Absolutely Suitner of those two! Pesek is okay but a 5th choice. Suitner is especially passionate and committed in symphonies 3-6.
Thanks! I was leaning towards Suitner anyway. A lot of people seem to rate Kertesz, but it's more than twice the price and has the aforementioned splitting problem.
Yeah, there was an affordable reissue of Kertesz recently but it sold out and was deleted. Decca really doesn't care :(
Quote from: Mountain Goat on January 18, 2022, 05:23:07 PM
I only have recordings of 7-9 and don't know the others very well at all, so I could do with a complete set. I'm strongly considering either Suitner or Pešek as they are both temptingly priced and seem highly regarded. One odd thing I've noticed is that a surprising amount of complete sets split symphonies between CDs, which is really annoying and completely unnecessary as none of them are that long! Unless a symphony is more than 80 minutes long there really is no excuse for this.
I'm looking at getting Suitner myself. I have 7-9 with Harnoncourt and 4-6 with Kertesz. Suitner is increasingly firming as the best approach for collecting the early symphonies I don't have, plus getting alternative readings of others.
Plus, of course, Suitner is available without those symphony splits (a point on which I agree with you entirely).
Quote from: Brian on January 18, 2022, 06:42:51 PM
Yeah, there was an affordable reissue of Kertesz recently but it sold out and was deleted. Decca really doesn't care :(
Not sold out:
https://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Complete-Symphonies-Overtures-Collectors/dp/B00H5DNAPM/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3DHDWTQIOA257&keywords=dvorak+kertesz&qid=1642698876&sprefix=dvorak+kerte%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-2
I would agree the Decca treats Kertesz poorly. His Brahms/WPO set is my favorite "traditional" cycle and it has never been available in a elegant package. First into now-deleted Double Decca releases, then from Eloquence/Australia.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 20, 2022, 08:16:32 AM
Not sold out:
https://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Complete-Symphonies-Overtures-Collectors/dp/B00H5DNAPM/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3DHDWTQIOA257&keywords=dvorak+kertesz&qid=1642698876&sprefix=dvorak+kerte%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-2
I would agree the Decca treats Kertesz poorly. His Brahms/WPO set is my favorite "traditional" cycle and it has never been available in a elegant package. First into now-deleted Double Decca releases, then from Eloquence/Australia.
I don't think that is the set Brian is referring to.
Technically it is although there was also one with a rustic village painting on the cover.
Decca needs to release a Kertesz Complete big box set. None of this "the London years," "the Vienna years" silliness.
Quote from: Brian on January 20, 2022, 10:54:14 AM
Technically it is although there was also one with a rustic village painting on the cover.
Decca needs to release a Kertesz Complete big box set. None of this "the London years," "the Vienna years" silliness.
The rustic village painting is the iteration of the set I thought you were referring to as I think it is the remastered newest reissue.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 20, 2022, 11:00:06 AM
The rustic village painting is the iteration of the set I thought you were referring to as I think it is the remastered newest reissue.
You mean this one:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL500_.jpg)
In all other cases I know about the Blu-ray Disc was a new master but the accompanying CDs were just copies of the previous issue. I assumed it would be the same here, but they could have done it differently in this instance, of course. The publicity seems to imply that the CDs are the new master as well, but I wouldn't trust that the advertising copy writers even know what is in the box.
As you probably already know, you can still get the Hi-Rez audio as a FLAC download from presto.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 20, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
You mean this one:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL500_.jpg)
In all other cases I know about the Blu-ray Disc was a new master but the accompanying CDs were just copies of the previous issue. I assumed it would be the same here, but they could have done it differently in this instance, of course. The publicity seems to imply that the CDs are the new master as well, but I wouldn't trust that the advertising copy writers even know what is in the box.
As you probably already know, you can still get the Hi-Rez audio as a FLAC download from presto.
I looked at the Presto download out of curiosity - too expensive for my pocket but what struck me is that the first of this cycle (No.8) was recorded in February 1963. I had it in my head they were about a decade older. Astonishing sonics (in any CD version) for 60 year old recordings. Those Decca engineers were magicians!
I find the sound on No.8 rather hard to take - a bit strident - but I agree the later recordings of the set (they improved progressively, with Nos 5 and 6 - December 1965 - being the best of all IMO) are very good 'for their time'. Then again, when you listen to what Mercury and RCA were doing in the late '50s - why wouldn't they be?
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 20, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL500_.jpg)
In all other cases I know about the Blu-ray Disc was a new master but the accompanying CDs were just copies of the previous issue. I assumed it would be the same here, but they could have done it differently in this instance, of course. The publicity seems to imply that the CDs are the new master as well, but I wouldn't trust that the advertising copy writers even know what is in the box.
Visual inspection of the waveforms shows that set definitely is remastered, compared with all previous CD iterations (singles, twofers, box sets) which seem to be identical.
I think anyone would be hard-pressed to hear the difference, but the remastered set has a bit of peak compression compared with previous iterations, as well as some expansion in the quietest sections (background noise reduced, including hall ambience ie muted London noise). Again purely by visual analysis, it is actually very similar to the original vinyl, apart from the ground noise level of course.
Well, the last few days have been a 'selective' listening to my nearly 50-disc
Dvorak collection, mainly chamber works, BUT this morning put a disc on from each of the first 3 boxes below of the
Symphonies - have not changed my mind in years, i.e. still enjoy these performances - don't want to add anymore, however, cannot seem to find that re-mastered Kertesz set with a BD at a reasonable price - SO, has anything 'new' come out worth evaluating? Thanks - Dave :)
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 04, 2020, 06:54:27 AM
Just re-read this 3-page thread which started/ended in 2013 - currently going through my Dvorak collection and have culled out some duplicate recordings and decided to replace a few - now on the Dvorak Symphonies - I own the top 3 shown below which appear to be some 'favorites' in this discussion - BUT, just wondering about anything new and/or improved - the Kertesz recordings have been remastered by Decca and expanded (bottom, left) and yet again even w/ a BD (bottom, middle) - this latter set has received some superlative reviews but seems to be unavailable, i.e. OOP - one used copy is on sale for $800 USD in the Amazon MP! Also saw the set by Belohlavek (bottom, right).
So, after 6+ years, please add comments on whether your preferences have changed and what 'newer' sets (either really new and/or remastered) have impressed you. Are Kertesz, Kubelik, Suitner, and Rowicki still in the top tier? Dave
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71mdrcG8-WL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Tay1ZKhOL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517BrZMW-zL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/818RPJK33fL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: aukhawk on January 21, 2022, 01:31:31 AM
I find the sound on No.8 rather hard to take - a bit strident - but I agree the later recordings of the set (they improved progressively, with Nos 5 and 6 - December 1965 - being the best of all IMO) are very good 'for their time'. Then again, when you listen to what Mercury and RCA were doing in the late '50s - why wouldn't they be?
Visual inspection of the waveforms shows that set definitely is remastered, compared with all previous CD iterations (singles, twofers, box sets) which seem to be identical.
I think anyone would be hard-pressed to hear the difference, but the remastered set has a bit of peak compression compared with previous iterations, as well as some expansion in the quietest sections (background noise reduced, including hall ambience ie muted London noise). Again purely by visual analysis, it is actually very similar to the original vinyl, apart from the ground noise level of course.
My go to Dvorak cycles are Suitner and Anguelov. The Anguelov is hard to find but it's really good. I also like some performances from the Valek cycle. My favorite Dvorak recording that isn't a cycle is Mackerras doing #8 and #9 live with the Prague Symphony. Wow, is it good.
Quote from: Olias on April 13, 2022, 06:28:31 PM
My go to Dvorak cycles are Suitner and Anguelov. The Anguelov is hard to find but it's really good. I also like some performances from the Valek cycle. My favorite Dvorak recording that isn't a cycle is Mackerras doing #8 and #9 live with the Prague Symphony. Wow, is it good.
A +1 for the Suitner cycle. What do you think about Kubelik, Neuman (both analog and digital cycles), Bělohlávek and Kertész?
Quote from: Olias on April 13, 2022, 06:28:31 PM
My go to Dvorak cycles are Suitner and Anguelov. The Anguelov is hard to find but it's really good. I also like some performances from the Valek cycle. My favorite Dvorak recording that isn't a cycle is Mackerras doing #8 and #9 live with the Prague Symphony. Wow, is it good.
We are going to get along great!
Quote from: Brian on April 13, 2022, 06:58:10 PM
We are going to get along great!
:P
Indeed. Anyone who is a fan of Dvořák is a friend of mine.
Quote from: Olias on April 13, 2022, 06:28:31 PM
My go to Dvorak cycles are Suitner and Anguelov. The Anguelov is hard to find but it's really good. I also like some performances from the Valek cycle. My favorite Dvorak recording that isn't a cycle is Mackerras doing #8 and #9 live with the Prague Symphony. Wow, is it good.
Some nice pics. My favorite out of the box recording is the Ancerl 6th
(https://www.supraphon.com/public/photo/300x300f/e/c/510.jpg?1490963260)
Quote from: DavidW on April 14, 2022, 05:42:47 AM
Some nice pics. My favorite out of the box recording is the Ancerl 6th
(https://www.supraphon.com/public/photo/300x300f/e/c/510.jpg?1490963260)
Yes, that's one for the ages.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 13, 2022, 06:46:30 PM
A +1 for the Suitner cycle. What do you think about Kubelik, Neuman (both analog and digital cycles), Bělohlávek and Kertész?
All of the above mentioned are great cycles, and I have indeed heard them all. It's more a personal taste thing for me, but I never really got into the Kertesz cycle, which I know is borderline sacrilegious but it just doesn't grab me as much as Suitner or Anguelov. Both of Neuman's cycles sound marvelous and are extremely well performed, but his tempi are just a little on the slow side for my taste (the exception is his 7th in the digital cycle, which in my opinion is one of the best 7ths out there, along with Levine/Chicago). Bělohlávek's cycle is very good in terms of sound quality and his performances are musically beautiful although in some places there is a lack of energy. Kubelik is the same in that (in my humble opinion) it's extremely well recorded but just a bit dull to my ears. One thing Bělohlávek has going for him though are the three concerti included in the set...which...are...marvelous!
Having said that, we're talking varying degrees of excellence here. You can't go wrong with any of these cycles. It just depends on what you like.
If I were to assemble my own "perfect" cycle of symphonies, I'd do it this way:
Symphony 1 - Suitner
Symphony 2 - Suitner
Symphony 3 - Suitner
Symphony 4 - Valek for the 1st and 2nd mvt, Anguelov for the 3rd mvt and Suitner for the 4th mvt
Symphony 5 - Anguelov
Symphony 6 - Anguelov
Symphony 7 - Neuman (digital) or Levine
Symphony 8 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony)
Symphony 9 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony) or Bernstein (New York Phil)
Cello Concerto - Alisa Weilerstein/Bělohlávek
Violin Concerto - Akiko Suwanai/Fischer
Piano Concerto - Garrick Ohlsson/Bělohlávek
Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 13, 2022, 07:10:48 PM
:P
Indeed. Anyone who is a fan of Dvořák is a friend of mine.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Quote from: Olias on April 14, 2022, 06:11:29 PM
Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. :)
There are far, far worse things to be than a Dvorak dork. Welcome.
Quote from: Madiel on April 14, 2022, 06:16:34 PM
There are far, far worse things to be than a Dvorak dork. Welcome.
Cheers. :)
Everyone is a geek about something. Some of us just raise our "geek banner" a little higher than others.
Man, this is the kind of dorkiness I really enjoy. I'm actually amid a project to listen to and compare all my Dvorak symphony recordings (10ish each so around 90) and write detailed notes on all of them for future reference.
Quote from: Olias on April 14, 2022, 06:11:29 PM
All of the above mentioned are great cycles, and I have indeed heard them all. It's more a personal taste thing for me, but I never really got into the Kertesz cycle, which I know is borderline sacrilegious but it just doesn't grab me as much as Suitner or Anguelov. Both of Neuman's cycles sound marvelous and are extremely well performed, but his tempi are just a little on the slow side for my taste (the exception is his 7th in the digital cycle, which in my opinion is one of the best 7ths out there, along with Levine/Chicago). Bělohlávek's cycle is very good in terms of sound quality and his performances are musically beautiful although in some places there is a lack of energy. Kubelik is the same in that (in my humble opinion) it's extremely well recorded but just a bit dull to my ears. One thing Bělohlávek has going for him though are the three concerti included in the set...which...are...marvelous!
Having said that, we're talking varying degrees of excellence here. You can't go wrong with any of these cycles. It just depends on what you like.
If I were to assemble my own "perfect" cycle of symphonies, I'd do it this way:
Symphony 1 - Suitner
Symphony 2 - Suitner
Symphony 3 - Suitner
Symphony 4 - Valek for the 1st and 2nd mvt, Anguelov for the 3rd mvt and Suitner for the 4th mvt
Symphony 5 - Anguelov
Symphony 6 - Anguelov
Symphony 7 - Neuman (digital) or Levine
Symphony 8 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony)
Symphony 9 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony) or Bernstein (New York Phil)
Cello Concerto - Alisa Weilerstein/Bělohlávek
Violin Concerto - Akiko Suwanai/Fischer
Piano Concerto - Garrick Ohlsson/Bělohlávek
Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. :)
Thanks for the detailed response and listing all of your favorite performances of each of the symphonies/concerti. Of course, if we take away Dvořák's symphonies and concerti, we still have an incredible composer. His chamber music is divine. His sacred works are sublime. His symphonic poems are off-the-chain superb. I'm least familiar with his operatic output, but I do love
Rusalka and I own recordings of
Dimitrij and
The Jacobin, but haven't heard them yet. Oh and his solo piano works are also good.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 14, 2022, 08:26:25 PM
Thanks for the detailed response and listing all of your favorite performances of each of the symphonies/concerti. Of course, if we take away Dvořák's symphonies and concerti, we still have an incredible composer. His chamber music is divine. His sacred works are sublime. His symphonic poems are off-the-chain superb. I'm least familiar with his operatic output, but I do love Rusalka and I own recordings of Dimitrij and The Jacobin, but haven't heard them yet. Oh and his solo piano works are also good.
I agree with everything you say. The operas are certainly worth a visit. Its curious/interesting how the tradition of opera in those central/east European countries dveloped a quite different thread from Germany/Italy so they tend to either be historical epics or folk derived. Worth remembering that Dvorak's early career was in the opera pit. The significance of Smetana in the development of a nationalist opera is too often forgotten in countries others than Czech/Slovak republics. There is a lot more to Smetana than just Ma Vlast/Bartered Bride/1st String Quartet!
Back to Dvorak - I enjoy his piano music but its pretty slight isn't it. My guess is that as a string player himself he reserved his most profound chamber music for that which includes strings....?
The best piano music I think are the Poetic Tone Pictures, and the Humoresques. In those later works you get some more substance to work with.
Not forgetting the 4-hand works, though. Arguably they're better than the solo ones. Including the 2 sets of Slavonic Dances, the Legends, and From the Bohemian Forest which was the one set never orchestrated.
Quote from: Madiel on April 14, 2022, 11:28:12 PM
The best piano music I think are the Poetic Tone Pictures, and the Humoresques. In those later works you get some more substance to work with.
Not forgetting the 4-hand works, though. Arguably they're better than the solo ones. Including the 2 sets of Slavonic Dances, the Legends, and From the Bohemian Forest which was the one set never orchestrated.
I must listen to the Poeetic Tone Pictures again - I have no memory of them at all! I agree about the 4-hand works but without exception prefer the orchestrations.....
In 2014 Decca released a boxed set of Kertesz/Dvorak with the symphonies, overtures, Requiem etc - this is still available from Amazon (and probably elsewhere). In 2016 they released a limited edition of the same selection but remastered; this is no longer available as CDs though it can be had as lossless download from Presto.
Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the remastering is worth bothering with. I have some of the works on LP and have heard some of the CDs; they sound pretty good to me.
The 'improvement' is subtle, and therefore I wouldn't pay a premium for it if I already had the music in LP or earlier CD format.
The original LPs already tended towards a rather bright soundscape (often commented-on in reviews back in the '60s when they were released) and the CD transfer just added to that. The remaster sounds more like the original vinyl than the older CDs do. If you think the older CDs sound good then the remaster is not an improvement.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 15, 2022, 04:11:04 AM
The 'improvement' is subtle, and therefore I wouldn't pay a premium for it if I already had the music in LP or earlier CD format.
The original LPs already tended towards a rather bright soundscape (often commented-on in reviews back in the '60s when they were released) and the CD transfer just added to that. The remaster sounds more like the original vinyl than the older CDs do. If you think the older CDs sound good then the remaster is not an improvement.
Thanks for the info. I have the Requiem on CD (the original analogue to digital transfer); I will give it another listen before making a decision as to whether to bu the 2014 box set.
Then I should add that my remarks above were based on a detailed inspection that I did some time ago, of a single track - Symphony No.6, 1st movt.
The 6th is to my ears the best-recorded of the Kertesz symphony set (I've never heard the Requiem), but even so it retains the characteristic soundscape - a rather steely sheen to the strings particularly - that characterised all these recordings. The worst example being the 8th.
I compared:
1. my own needledrop from the original-issue Decca vinyl
2. CD - FLAC ripped on my PC from the Decca 4-5-6 twofer
3. 'CD' - that is, redbook FLAC downloaded from Presto, from the 2014 compilation
4a. The remastered compilation as 96/24 FLAC from Presto
4b. The same 96/24 FLAC resampled on my own PC to redbook FLAC (to be more comparable with 2 and 3)
I level-matched all five samples, although really there was no real need, the differences were all well under 0.5dB.
I compared these visually (looking at general waveforms etc), and using some software analysis, and listening. I should say straight away that there was no significant difference either visually or audibly, between (2) and (3), nor between (4a) and (4b). 1 and 4 were visually and audibly very similar, apart of course from the higher ground noise level of the vinyl. 1 / 4 were visually different from 2 / 3, and audibly (but really only very subtly so). From visual inspection, I would say that 4 has been processed, but (IMHO) in a good way.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 14, 2022, 11:23:15 PM
I agree with everything you say. The operas are certainly worth a visit. Its curious/interesting how the tradition of opera in those central/east European countries dveloped a quite different thread from Germany/Italy so they tend to either be historical epics or folk derived. Worth remembering that Dvorak's early career was in the opera pit. The significance of Smetana in the development of a nationalist opera is too often forgotten in countries others than Czech/Slovak republics. There is a lot more to Smetana than just Ma Vlast/Bartered Bride/1st String Quartet!
Back to Dvorak - I enjoy his piano music but its pretty slight isn't it. My guess is that as a string player himself he reserved his most profound chamber music for that which includes strings....?
I agree that there is more to Smetana than those three famous works. He wrote a lot of solo piano music that I haven't heard. Not to mention, several other operas.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 07:03:41 AM
I agree that there is more to Smetana than those three famous works. He wrote a lot of solo piano music that I haven't heard. Not to mention, several other operas.
For me the best survey of the Smetana piano music is Jitka Cechová on Supraphon - well recorded, well played and the most comprehensive. For sure there are a lot of salon-polka type pieces along the way but he wrote some interesting quite experimental music as well that is certainly worth hearing....
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 14, 2022, 08:26:25 PM
Thanks for the detailed response and listing all of your favorite performances of each of the symphonies/concerti. Of course, if we take away Dvořák's symphonies and concerti, we still have an incredible composer. His chamber music is divine. His sacred works are sublime. His symphonic poems are off-the-chain superb. I'm least familiar with his operatic output, but I do love Rusalka and I own recordings of Dimitrij and The Jacobin, but haven't heard them yet. Oh and his solo piano works are also good.
Yes to all of it. I'm partial to the Panocha Quartet's cycle of string quartets. Also the Serenade for Winds. Dvorak wrote so many good works in the largest variety of genres since Mozart.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 15, 2022, 07:44:30 AM
For me the best survey of the Smetana piano music is Jitka Cechová on Supraphon - well recorded, well played and the most comprehensive. For sure there are a lot of salon-polka type pieces along the way but he wrote some interesting quite experimental music as well that is certainly worth hearing....
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to check out Cechová. I've seen several of her Smetana recordings before, but I didn't know whether his piano music was worth pursuing or not.
Quote from: Olias on April 15, 2022, 06:53:30 PM
Yes to all of it. I'm partial to the Panocha Quartet's cycle of string quartets. Also the Serenade for Winds. Dvorak wrote so many good works in the largest variety of genres since Mozart.
The Panocha cycle is certainly a fine one, indeed. I really ought to get around listening to
all of Dvořák's SQs. I think I've only heard the later ones and that's it.
I typically only listen to quartet 7 onwards. The earlier ones have various issues... mind you if you like the first couple of symphonies you might also respond to the early quartets.
For the 1st quartet, you will get a significantly shortened version (shortened by the composer himself, apparently) from everyone besides the Prague quartet. The Zemlinsky quartet also shorten some of the others I believe.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 15, 2022, 07:00:59 AM
Then I should add that my remarks above were based on a detailed inspection that I did some time ago, of a single track - Symphony No.6, 1st movt.
The 6th is to my ears the best-recorded of the Kertesz symphony set (I've never heard the Requiem), but even so it retains the characteristic soundscape - a rather steely sheen to the strings particularly - that characterised all these recordings. The worst example being the 8th.
I compared:
1. my own needledrop from the original-issue Decca vinyl
2. CD - FLAC ripped on my PC from the Decca 4-5-6 twofer
3. 'CD' - that is, redbook FLAC downloaded from Presto, from the 2014 compilation
4a. The remastered compilation as 96/24 FLAC from Presto
4b. The same 96/24 FLAC resampled on my own PC to redbook FLAC (to be more comparable with 2 and 3)
I level-matched all five samples, although really there was no real need, the differences were all well under 0.5dB.
I compared these visually (looking at general waveforms etc), and using some software analysis, and listening. I should say straight away that there was no significant difference either visually or audibly, between (2) and (3), nor between (4a) and (4b). 1 and 4 were visually and audibly very similar, apart of course from the higher ground noise level of the vinyl. 1 / 4 were visually different from 2 / 3, and audibly (but really only very subtly so). From visual inspection, I would say that 4 has been processed, but (IMHO) in a good way.
Thanks for the detailed info. Several times in the past when we have discussed symphony cycles I have dithered over whether to add Kertesz on CD. Yesterday I took the plunge and ordered the 2014 set, it arrives today. I don't really need another cycle but it will be interesting to hear the Kertesz complete cycle. The sound of the performances I have heard on LP, CD and Spotify hasn't troubled me.
Quote from: Olias on April 14, 2022, 06:11:29 PM
All of the above mentioned are great cycles, and I have indeed heard them all. It's more a personal taste thing for me, but I never really got into the Kertesz cycle, which I know is borderline sacrilegious but it just doesn't grab me as much as Suitner or Anguelov. Both of Neuman's cycles sound marvelous and are extremely well performed, but his tempi are just a little on the slow side for my taste (the exception is his 7th in the digital cycle, which in my opinion is one of the best 7ths out there, along with Levine/Chicago). Bělohlávek's cycle is very good in terms of sound quality and his performances are musically beautiful although in some places there is a lack of energy. Kubelik is the same in that (in my humble opinion) it's extremely well recorded but just a bit dull to my ears. One thing Bělohlávek has going for him though are the three concerti included in the set...which...are...marvelous!
Having said that, we're talking varying degrees of excellence here. You can't go wrong with any of these cycles. It just depends on what you like.
If I were to assemble my own "perfect" cycle of symphonies, I'd do it this way:
Symphony 1 - Suitner
Symphony 2 - Suitner
Symphony 3 - Suitner
Symphony 4 - Valek for the 1st and 2nd mvt, Anguelov for the 3rd mvt and Suitner for the 4th mvt
Symphony 5 - Anguelov
Symphony 6 - Anguelov
Symphony 7 - Neuman (digital) or Levine
Symphony 8 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony)
Symphony 9 - Mackerras (Prague Symphony) or Bernstein (New York Phil)
Cello Concerto - Alisa Weilerstein/Bělohlávek
Violin Concerto - Akiko Suwanai/Fischer
Piano Concerto - Garrick Ohlsson/Bělohlávek
Yes I'm a Dvorak dork. :)
They're always welcome in my book! ;D I hadn't heard of Anguelov before now. I did a bit of checking around and found out that PrestoClassical has them for sale as downloads (currently $50 for Mp3 quality and $60 for FLAC).
PD
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 15, 2022, 07:41:27 PM
The Panocha cycle is certainly a fine one, indeed. I really ought to get around listening to all of Dvořák's SQs. I think I've only heard the later ones and that's it.
I agree with Madiel, the early ones are not that great. And one of them is a whopping 70 minutes long! I first heard it in the Stamitz Q set and it didn't really justify its Brucknerian length.
Quote from: DavidW on April 16, 2022, 04:32:05 AM
And one of them is a whopping 70 minutes long! I first heard it in the Stamitz Q set and it didn't really justify its Brucknerian length.
Possibly not helped by the Stamitz being the only people who manage to make it take longer than 70 minutes.
The Prague scrape in just under. The Panocha only take 56 minutes, through a combination of sheer zippiness and maybe they cut some repeats? The Zemlinsky quartet slash and burn it down to 35 minutes.
Quote from: Madiel on April 16, 2022, 04:59:26 AM
The Zemlinsky quartet slash and burn it down to 35 minutes.
If I ever want to listen to that work again Zemlinsky will be the one then!
For me, the first six quartets are like the first three symphonies, nice, but a bit too long and more influenced by the style of Wagner or Bruckner. He's not copying them but it doesn't feel like Dvorak being himself. I'd love to like the early works more but they haven't grabbed me as much as the music he wrote beginning around the mid-1870s. However, starting with SQ #7, there are still eight quartets that are among the best in the genre.
Quote from: Olias on April 16, 2022, 06:47:45 PM
For me, the first six quartets are like the first three symphonies, nice, but a bit too long and more influenced by the style of Wagner or Bruckner. He's not copying them but it doesn't feel like Dvorak being himself. I'd love to like the early works more but they haven't grabbed me as much as the music he wrote beginning around the mid-1870s. However, starting with SQ #7, there are still eight quartets that are among the best in the genre.
I've gone on record here saying I love the 1st symphony and I stand by this opinion. I think it's a magnificent work despite whatever mud one wants to fling at it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 17, 2022, 07:11:52 PM
I've gone on record here saying I love the 1st symphony and I stand by this opinion. I think it's a magnificent work despite whatever mud one wants to fling at it.
Ditto.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 17, 2022, 07:11:52 PM
I've gone on record here saying I love the 1st symphony and I stand by this opinion. I think it's a magnificent work despite whatever mud one wants to fling at it.
yes absolutely - for a Symphony No.1 it is a remarkable acheivement and the positives far outway any longeurs that in all probability Dvorak would have removed had he had the opportunity to revise the work.....
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 17, 2022, 07:11:52 PM
I've gone on record here saying I love the 1st symphony and I stand by this opinion. I think it's a magnificent work despite whatever mud one wants to fling at it.
No mud flinging from me, just that it hasn't grabbed me as much as everything from the 4th onwards. I didn't mean to infer that it is a poor work, in fact, it is actually a good work. I merely contend that (for me), it represents a style of composing that existed before Dvorak evolved into the musical voice that gives me the most pleasure in listening to his works. I have listened to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd many times and will continue to try and enjoy them more as time goes on.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 18, 2022, 08:26:21 AM
yes absolutely - for a Symphony No.1 it is a remarkable acheivement and the positives far outway any longeurs that in all probability Dvorak would have removed had he had the opportunity to revise the work.....
Indeed. We'd all be so lucky to compose a 1st symphony as good as this one.
Quote from: Olias on April 19, 2022, 06:05:08 AM
No mud flinging from me, just that it hasn't grabbed me as much as everything from the 4th onwards. I didn't mean to infer that it is a poor work, in fact, it is actually a good work. I merely contend that (for me), it represents a style of composing that existed before Dvorak evolved into the musical voice that gives me the most pleasure in listening to his works. I have listened to the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd many times and will continue to try and enjoy them more as time goes on.
Oh, I never thought that you thought it was a poor work --- it simply doesn't resonate with you and that's fine. I was just interjecting my own opinion of it. I actually liked it on first-listen when I heard it so many years ago.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 19, 2022, 06:10:43 AM
Oh, I never thought that you thought it was a poor work --- it simply doesn't resonate with you and that's fine. I was just interjecting my own opinion of it. I actually liked it on first-listen when I heard it so many years ago.
I really would like to do a score analysis on it soon. Maybe it will rub off on me when I examine the nuts and bolts of it. I'm in the middle of an analysis of the 6th Symphony right now so maybe after that I'll focus on the 1st.
Quote from: Olias on April 19, 2022, 03:11:42 PM
I really would like to do a score analysis on it soon. Maybe it will rub off on me when I examine the nuts and bolts of it. I'm in the middle of an analysis of the 6th Symphony right now so maybe after that I'll focus on the 1st.
Sounds like a plan, Mekel.
Quote from: aukhawk on April 15, 2022, 07:00:59 AM
Then I should add that my remarks above were based on a detailed inspection that I did some time ago, of a single track - Symphony No.6, 1st movt.
The 6th is to my ears the best-recorded of the Kertesz symphony set (I've never heard the Requiem), but even so it retains the characteristic soundscape - a rather steely sheen to the strings particularly - that characterised all these recordings. The worst example being the 8th.
I compared:
1. my own needledrop from the original-issue Decca vinyl
2. CD - FLAC ripped on my PC from the Decca 4-5-6 twofer
3. 'CD' - that is, redbook FLAC downloaded from Presto, from the 2014 compilation
4a. The remastered compilation as 96/24 FLAC from Presto
4b. The same 96/24 FLAC resampled on my own PC to redbook FLAC (to be more comparable with 2 and 3)
I level-matched all five samples, although really there was no real need, the differences were all well under 0.5dB.
I compared these visually (looking at general waveforms etc), and using some software analysis, and listening. I should say straight away that there was no significant difference either visually or audibly, between (2) and (3), nor between (4a) and (4b). 1 and 4 were visually and audibly very similar, apart of course from the higher ground noise level of the vinyl. 1 / 4 were visually different from 2 / 3, and audibly (but really only very subtly so). From visual inspection, I would say that 4 has been processed, but (IMHO) in a good way.
I finally took the plunge and bought the 2014 set. So far I have listened to the first four symphonies. You describe the sound as bright, I found the 1st symphony worse that - I would describe the sound as coarse. After the 1st the sound improved, with the 3rd being the best. I have the 4th on LP but I haven't done a direct comparison. Now looking forward to hearing the rest.
Quote from: Biffo on April 20, 2022, 12:13:05 AM
I finally took the plunge and bought the 2014 set. So far I have listened to the first four symphonies. You describe the sound as bright, I found the 1st symphony worse that - I would describe the sound as coarse. After the 1st the sound improved, with the 3rd being the best. I have the 4th on LP but I haven't done a direct comparison. Now looking forward to hearing the rest.
I listened to the 9th a few days ago and the sound was actually warm and not bright. It might not be up to 2020s standards for sonics, but it sounded excellent. Just keep in mind I listened on speakers and not headphones. Things that might sound harsh on headphones usually don't as much after traveling 14 feet to my ears.
Quote from: Biffo on April 20, 2022, 12:13:05 AM
I finally took the plunge and bought the 2014 set. So far I have listened to the first four symphonies. You describe the sound as bright, I found the 1st symphony worse that - I would describe the sound as coarse. After the 1st the sound improved, with the 3rd being the best. I have the 4th on LP but I haven't done a direct comparison. Now looking forward to hearing the rest.
The Kertesz cycle was recorded over a period of time - earliest Feb '63 was the 8th, and I find this a bit of a trial to listen to - latest Dec '66 the 1st and the 9th - by which time the LSO had already embarked on another complete Dvorak symphony cycle, with Rowicki conducting and recorded at a different venue. Nos 2, 3 and 4 were also recorded in late '66, and nos. 5 and 6 (6 is my favourite sound-wise) in Dec '65, the 7th in Mar '64.
I'm happy with what I have, which is basically the
Kertesz cycle backed by the very different
Belohlavek cycle, and bolstered by
Dohnanyi in nos.6-9. I also have and like the
Dorati 7/8 on Mercury Living Presence. I've never yet found a 9th I really like 100%.
Out of curiosty I've recently dipped into two others praised here - Suitner and Anguelov.
Suitner (the 8th) was disappointing - the sound to my ears sharing many of the same characteristics of the Kertesz cycle, and the conducting similarly straight-ahead as well.
Anguelov (the 6th) I enjoyed very much - a slightly smaller, more transparent soundscape, and the conductor much more indulgent with tempo variations, helping me to stay interested.