GMG Classical Music Forum

These movie soundtrack threads usually are short-lived here, but what the heck.

Just curious where you file these?  That is, do you consider some movie scores to be classical, or do they belong in their own category?  I have noticed that soundtracks are sometimes posted on the classical listening thread, but others put them on the non-classical?  If they are non-classical, then why are the following samples available at Arkive Music, which claims to be one's source for classical music?

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/028947134725-Cvr_178.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/34/343085.JPG) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/54/547800.jpg)

I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other, but just curious about your thoughts.

Quote from: Bogey on May 25, 2007, 02:32:38 PM
These movie soundtrack threads usually are short-lived here, but what the heck.

Just curious where you file these?  That is, do you consider some movie scores to be classical, or do they belong in their own category?  I have noticed that soundtracks are sometimes posted on the classical listening thread, but others put them on the non-classical?  If they are non-classical, then why are the following samples available at Arkive Music, which claims to be one's source for classical music?

http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/028947134725-Cvr_178.jpg[/img] (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/34/343085.JPG) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/54/547800.jpg)

I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other, but just curious about your thoughts.

"MYSTERY OF RAMPO" amongst many.....

I consider movie soundtracks to be 'classical' wherever they use instruments which I typically associate with Western Art Music. So I file my 'Titanic', 'Finding Neverland' and 'The Piano' soundtracks along with my other classical discs.


<awaits derision for confessing to owning the first of the above-mentioned soundtrack CDs>

Movie soundtracks are not classical music for me. So, my John Williams soundtracks are separated from classical music.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 02:51:30 PM
Movie soundtracks are not classical music for me. So, my John Williams soundtracks are separated from classical music.

As are mine.....but curious why they are seperate.

Quote from: Mark on May 25, 2007, 02:37:30 PM
<awaits derision for confessing to owning the first of the above-mentioned soundtrack CDs>

<hornteacher hangs his head in shame>  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[


They do say the first step to recovery is admitting the problem.......

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc...not only that, but the a film composer usually doesnt have the last say, a director can step in at any point and say "i dont like it, change it", so theyre under the gun and dont have the last say....'real' composers are to deep and serious to handle that kind of shit....

I'll inform the likes Erich Wolfgang Korngold, William Walton, and Dmitri Shostakovich that they are merely figments of our imagination.  ;)

Quote from: hornteacher on May 25, 2007, 03:01:51 PM
<hornteacher hangs his head in shame>  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[


They do say the first step to recovery is admitting the problem.......

;D

Several great ones:

1. Sergei Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky
2. Philip Glass' Koyaanisqatsi
3. Nino Rota's La Strada
4. Shostakovich's The Gadfly
5. Nino Rota's The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, The Godfather Part III
6. Bernard Herrman's Vertigo
7. Ennio Morricone's Once Upon A Time In America
8. Philip Glass' The Hours
9. Ennio Morricone's The Mission
10. Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 03:12:17 PM
yeah, thats true and then it was virgin territory and those composers did some very good work in that area...but i was just more generally saying that most serious composers are far too artistic to JUST do that, or deal with that kind of grind/condition...

It would be interesting to hear what the above composers I listed had to say about their movie music....were they simply doing it as a "job" to earn income, or did they truly "get into" the experience.

A point of yours that should not be lost here James, due to my previous response of yours, is:

but the a film composer usually doesnt have the last say, a director can step in at any point and say "i dont like it, change it", so theyre under the gun and dont have the last say

I do wish soundtracks were released in their entire recorded format.....I wonder what wonderful and full scores we are missing due to the chopping process.  I know that they have re-released some of William's Star Wars work with at least all the music from the movie (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Episode-Ultimate-Recording/dp/B000051VYS/ref=sr_1_6/102-7134284-2880939?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180135131&sr=1-6), but even this seems to be fairly rare.

The 'Finding Neverland' soundtrack is an interesting one, as there is material on the CD which never made it into the movie. Apparently, they had time left in the recording studio after everything was in the can, so the composer sat and played at the piano and recorded extra works. These sound terrific, and I sometimes wish they'd been included in the film.

Quote from: Mark on May 25, 2007, 03:24:57 PM
The 'Finding Neverland' soundtrack is an interesting one, as there is material on the CD which never made it into the movie. Apparently, they had time left in the recording studio after everything was in the can, so the composer sat and played at the piano and recorded extra works. These sound terrific, and I sometimes wish they'd been included in the film.

Just count your lucky stars, especially the second star to the right, that the extra piano music made it on the cd at all Mark.  :)

Now you've made me want to hear Kate Bush's lovely track, 'In Search Of Peter Pan' from her 1979 album, 'Lionheart'. ;D

Quote from: Bogey on May 25, 2007, 02:32:38 PMThat is, do you consider some movie scores to be classical...

Yes, for the same reason incidental music to plays (the pre-film era soundtrack) can be classical music. If Beethoven's Egmont, Mendelssohn's A Midsummer Night's Dream, and Grieg's Peer Gynt are classical then so are "some" film scores.

Sarge

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 03:39:07 PM
probably a bit of both bogey, no doubt, but i highly doubt that they would have ranked/considered that music as much as other works they did...

I doubt Beethoven ranked Egmont as high as op.110, 132, and the Ninth Symphony either.

Sarge

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 03:39:07 PM
probably a bit of both bogey, no doubt, but i highly doubt that they would have ranked/considered that music as much as other works they did...

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2007, 03:59:25 PM
I doubt Beethoven ranked Egmont as high as op.110, 132, and the Ninth Symphony either.

Sarge

Good points.

Don't have any movie soundtracks.  If I did, I'd file them under "M".  That's consistent with my one and only non-classical cd from Don Fagen - "F".

Heres a few adding to Israfels list....
Alien
Altered States
Anatomy of a Murder
Dead Again
Mystery of Rampo
Mulholland Drive
The Blue Max
Lion in Winter
Dracula (Kilar)
Ghost and Mrs Muir
Kill a  Mockingbird
Somewhere in Time
Out of Africa
Round Midnight
Shawshank Redemption
Sleepers
Untouchables

Quote from: Mark on May 25, 2007, 03:30:46 PM
Now you've made me want to hear Kate Bush's lovely track, 'In Search Of Peter Pan' from her 1979 album, 'Lionheart'. ;D

Another GREAT Kate Bush fan here.

I have a lot of film scores, and consider the genre my "back door" into classical. I see them as definitely separate though because the medium is so different. Even though good film music can certainly stand on its own, it's purpose is to accompany pictures and classical (or concert music) is meant for the concert hall.

I tend to file film music by Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and other well-known classical composers in with their classical works, and then put well-known film composers' concert works (like the Yo-Yo Ma/John Williams CD) over with their film stuff.

I do think film scoring is a worthy art, but there are some film composers who I wish would've spent more time writing interesting works for the concert hall above writing interesting scores for ho-hum movies.

Often their "real" concert self is quite radically different than their film composing side (ex. J. Williams), which shows of course, that after all it is a job and they must do what the director desires. The film is temp tracked with Le Sacre and Planets, and the director says, "Yes, yes I like this, go write me something like that!" And if he doesn't - the score is rejected and the director finds someone else who will.

And more recently, a temp track may even be by one of their own colleagues, which can make for some quite embarrassing situations. The new King Kong by Peter Jackson had that kind of mess happen.

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc...not only that, but the a film composer usually doesnt have the last say, a director can step in at any point and say "i dont like it, change it", so theyre under the gun and dont have the last say....'real' composers are to deep and serious to handle that kind of shit....

A moronic statement to be sure. Movie composers who know their craft are just as independent as court-composers were dependent on the tastes of their patrons - and vice versa. All art is governed outside forces and limitations.

Thomas

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 03:12:17 PM
but i was just more generally saying that most serious composers are far too artistic to JUST do that, or deal with that kind of grind/condition...

So your statement was not specifically wrong, but generally.

""A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open." - Zappa"

You failed.

Thomas

Jerry Goldsmith was right when he said: "If our music survives, which I have no doubt it will, then it will because it is good."

This is true of music in any form. Mark made a good point saying that if film music employs the palette of instruments usually associated with "classical"/concert music, then it should be regarded as "classical". Not all film composers would agree to that statement, but the great ones (Bernard Herrmann, Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North, Miklós Rózsa, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Alfred Newman, Elmer Bernstein etc.etc.) always had easily reckognizable stylistic trademarks - which is the most important element of any classically-informed music.

Some of the greatest film music, in that it was composed for the 20th century's most important - and only new - art form, will certainly survive.

I do not agree with Bogey however that entire soundtracks should be released. Each and every complete soundtrack release is bound to be repetitive. Movie music benefits from regrouping and sometimes "remaking" the music into concert suites etc.

Thomas

Quote from: Robert on May 25, 2007, 09:05:48 PM
Heres a few adding to Israfels list....
Dead Again
...
Dracula (Kilar)
...
Somewhere in Time
Out of Africa
Round Midnight
Shawshank Redemption
Sleepers

These, however, are eminently forgettable.

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc...not only that, but the a film composer usually doesnt have the last say, a director can step in at any point and say "i dont like it, change it", so theyre under the gun and dont have the last say....'real' composers are to deep and serious to handle that kind of shit....

So classical composers have never composed or edited to appease patrons, audiences, or publishers? They've never been thinking of coin while composing? I think not.

As I wrote in the thread on popular music:

"Of course the commercial pressures, and easy production and distribution , assures that there's produced a lot of crap today. But lots of Haydns contemporaries were composing mainly to keep their children fed as well."

Quote from: Mark on May 25, 2007, 02:37:30 PM
<awaits derision for confessing to owning the first of the above-mentioned soundtrack CDs>

No, I don't own it.  ;) My Movie Soundtrack "collection":

John Williams - Raiders of the Lost Ark
John Williams - A.I. Artificial Intelligence
John Williams - Jurassic Park
John Williams - Star Wars Episode I
John Williams - Star Wars Episode II
John Williams - Star Wars Episode III
John Williams - Star Wars Episode IV
John Williams - Star Wars Episode V
John Williams - Star Wars Episode VI
John Williams - Minority Report
The Spielberg/Williams Collaboration
Copland/Williams - Music for Stage and Screen
Lesley Barber - Mansfield Park

Quote from: Don on May 25, 2007, 06:57:25 PM
That's consistent with my one and only non-classical cd from Don Fagen - "F".

My Donald Fagen cds are filed under "S".

I see that some are "tagging" this thread with their favorite list of soundtracks as well.  Though it may be pushing the envelope, I will make another thread to accommodate these, as I find these lists fun/interesting as well......and I want to post mine. ;D  I'll use a page out of Dave's book to get it off the ground.  Now, where to put it?  What the heck.....I'll put it under Great Recordings and Reviews.  ;)

My only request, if you should feel up to it, is that for those that posted their "favorite" lists here is to repeat this on the new thread, as it would be nice to reference from time to time.....however, I believe I will cap the lists at 5.

Here is the thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1103.0.html

Quote from: James on May 25, 2007, 02:58:52 PM
most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc.

Strictly speaking, this statement is correct, but only because it starts with "most". For that matter, most classical music is just 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what [other] classical composers had already [done], and riddled with cliches and tricks etc. It's just that what gets recorded and listened to is the cream of the crop. Likewise with film composers, Miklos Rozsa and Bernhard Herrmann didn't stop writing great music when they were doing it for film. Also, Copland wrote a couple of nice film scores. And can we count Schoenberg's op. 34?

Danny Elfman's score for "A Simple Plan" is an interesting study. It obviously lacks development, but there are some fascinating harmonies and timbres produced using out-of-tune pianos and (I think) pairs of flutes.

Quote from: James on May 26, 2007, 04:33:39 AM

pfff touchy touchy...what i did say earlier does apply to most film music, its done in brief, its meaning doesnt run as deep, its mainly all that these composers do, can you point me to Jerry Goldsmith's more personal chamber works? something that runs a little more deeply and means more than merely provide aural backdrop to a scene...film composers can spend a lot of time on something only to have a director come in and sqwelch it all completely; so yes the scope of their artistry is severly restricted within narrower confines, they arent that FREE ....just curious though what is in your estimation the greatest film music, stuff thats so great that its up there with the best of the 20th century classical compositions?

I would say Philip Glass' Koyaanisqatsi score is one of his most meaningful pieces the composer has written. I would also say Nino Rota's La Strada and scores for The Godfather are among his most personal works ever, as I have almost a complete collection of all of his concert works. This is a new century, a new time, where film is the medium that is inspiring many composers to write glorious music. It is no longer the turn of the century where film is just being discovered as a financial medium for composers, but rather an artistic medium for individuals who grew up watching and loving cinema just as we have, hearing the music of great composers behind the images, inspiring them to one day work in film just as a young Mozart aspired to write Opera. As long as you are trying to force your 18th century perspective on 20th century music you will continue to miss the greatness of this genre. It doesn't matter what all of you elitists in here assume or think about the inferiority of film music, what matters is that several composers have already become immortalized by their film music who are now dead. What matters is that in 20 years film music will be regarded as practically the single and most profitable medium which provided composers a palette to write in traditional classical forms and also innovate in experimentation without alienating tonality or their audience. What matters is that film music will be regarded as the one single medium which saved the death of classical music from the bludgeon dealt by the serialist and modernist, who very few had pieces themselves which contain even a fraction of the intimate, emotional power of some of these film score composers.

I am truly tired of hearing film music being neglected by music elitists because they are neglecting something that will be, and is, a very integral part of art history. Film music is no different from stage music for Opera, theater, or court music. I see little difference in Bernard Herman's mind bending score for the complex, psychological Hitchcock thriller Vertigo any less of art than Beethoven's Piano Trio composed for prince Lichnowsky. If you sneer film music then I assume you know very little about music, and this applies to anyone in this thread who does so. I don't care if you call it Classical, Neoclassical, Romantic, 20th Century, or whatever you like, it is a genre and medium that is directly associated with keeping your beloved classical music alive throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. Many of these composers are film buffs. They are not just committing to financial demands or court officials, they are contributing to a collaborative team of individuals devoted to crafting a piece of art that will entertain and inspire audiences around the world. Most of the great composers of film worked with the greatest directors in film with names such as Fredrico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, Akira Kurosawa, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, Sergio Leone, Godfrey Reggio, Sergei Eisenstein, and Alfred Hitchcock. These are some of the greatest film artists of the 20th Century, who they themselves were inspired by the works of great literary artists such as Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Tolstoy and Chekhov. The case here is not an artist working for a court official, but the case of an artist working with an artist.

The great Fredrico Fellini said once of Nino Rota: "The most precious collaborator I have ever had, I say it straightaway and don't even have to hesitate, was Nino Rota--between us, immediately, a complete, total, harmony... He had a geometric imagination, a musical approach worthy of celestial spheres. He thus had no need to see images from my movies. When I asked him about the melodies he had in mind to comment one sequence or another, I clearly realized he was not concerned with images at all. His world was inner, inside himself, and reality had no way to enter it."

These filmmakers do not go in and tell the composers what to write, because they realize you cannot command a true artist to shape another's vision. Instead, they depend on these composers' own genius due to previous experiences and mutual vision, and allow them to compose however the film itself inspires them to write. George Lucas and Steven Spielberg give little to no input on Williams' score. They give him footage and he writes based from his own inspiration of the images. The same is true for Herrmann, Glass, Kilar, Rota, Morricone and most other of the film greats.

All of this goes without mentioning that these composers typically collaborate with the same director several times or all of the time. This is not because they get paid the most by this particular director, but because they have a great affinity for their work and person. This is why John Williams has composed for all of Spielberg's films save for two. Nino Rota wrote every single film score for Fellini's films. There is no surprise why Enni Morricone has written 400 film scores (beyond his financial means) and wrote most or all of Sergio Leone's film music. Bernard Herrmann wrote 9 film scores for Alfred Hitchcock. I think these trends say a little bit more about the art than financial obligations or convenience. It is no coincidence the greatest directors in cinema collaborated with the greatest composers in music.

Quote from: sound67 on May 26, 2007, 02:48:09 AM
These, however, are eminently forgettable.

I am giving you the benefit here assuming you have heard any of these soundtracks....

Quote from: sound67 on May 26, 2007, 02:48:09 AM
These, however, are eminently forgettable.

May I call you Roger, Mr. Ebert.  I am having anxiety fits waiting for your list....I only see you shooting off your mouth I dont see any listing from you.....

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 26, 2007, 07:58:48 AM
These filmmakers do not go in and tell the composers what to write, because they realize you cannot command a true artist to shape another's vision. Instead, they depend on these composers' own genius due to previous experiences and mutual vision, and allow them to compose however the film itself inspires them to write. George Lucas and Steven Spielberg give little to no input on Williams' score. They give him footage and he writes based from his own inspiration of the images.

In case of Star Wars movies Lucas and Williams went through the early cuts of the movies and discussed about what kind of music should be composed to each scene. Lucas told Williams what kind of emotions and feelings he wanted from the music. After that, Williams' hands were free.

Like opera music, movie music is subordinate to the "whole thing". Movie music must obey scene timing and allow other sounds on the movie soundtrack (in a movie like Star Wars there can be 100 simultanuous sounds!) to be heard. The best movie composers should be respected as their scores improve movies more than we think.

Quote from: sound67 on May 26, 2007, 02:48:09 AM
These, however, are eminently forgettable.

Since your above statements include Shawshank Redemption, I'll have to disagree.  I think that one is perfect for the movie and I've never forgotten it.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 08:22:08 AM
In case of Star Wars movies Lucas and Williams went through the early cuts of the movies and discussed about what kind of music should be composed to each scene. Lucas told Williams what kind of emotions and feelings he wanted from the music. After that, Williams' hands were free.

Like opera music, movie music is subordinate to the "whole thing". Movie music must obey scene timing and allow other sounds on the movie soundtrack (in a movie like Star Wars there can be 100 simultanuous sounds!) to be heard. The best movie composers should be respected as their scores improve movies more than we think.

Well, in Williams case this may be true, in terms of envisioning the emotion. Although, I am pretty sure this was not the case for most of his work in the Prequels, but I am not as familiar with Williams' work as I am others. There are many exceptions and different approaches to creating music in the filmmaking process, and it would be unfair to assume the same process is true for all filmmakers, because it certainly is not. Yes, composers are limited to certain cues and such in the film, but this is hardly unique in music. Even outside theater music such as a tone poem, or a patriotic symphony, or a concerto, is typically ordained by both expected typical form and the appropriate mood that is respective to the particular text adapted, and the commissioned nature of the work. There are exceptions and liberties taken by composers, however, but the same holds true for film composers as well.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 26, 2007, 08:40:07 AM
Well, in Williams case this may be true, in terms of envisioning the emotion. Although, I am pretty sure this was not the case for most of his work in the Prequels.

There weren't much differencies between the "original" and "prequel" trilogies. In episode I Williams "backward-developed" the themes of the original trilogy so that the themes of episodes IV, V and VI sounds like they are developed from the themes of episode I. "Anakin's Theme" is a fantastic example of that.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 08:52:18 AM
There weren't much differencies between the "original" and "prequel" trilogies. In episode I Williams "backward-developed" the themes of the original trilogy so that the themes of episodes IV, V and VI sounds like they are developed from the themes of episode I. "Anakin's Theme" is a fantastic example of that.

Perhaps I should have said "some of these composers". I can see the backwards development there, but the prequels score were still quite progressive for Williams' sake. The use of full chorus and certain rhythmic arpeggios in many of the themes used were quite unique for Williams. I am not a huge fan of Williams though, to be honest. I don't own any of his music outside of the respective films he has contributed to, but I have read some comments Spielberg made about him which was more to what I was referring to in my post more than Lucas.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 26, 2007, 09:00:27 AM
Perhaps I should have said "some of these composers". I can see the backwards development there, but the prequels score were still quite progressive for Williams' sake. The use of full chorus and certain rhythmic arpeggios in many of the themes used were quite unique for Williams. I am not a huge fan of Williams though, to be honest. I don't own any of his music outside of the respective films he has contributed to, but I have read some comments Spielberg made about him which was more to what I was referring to in my post more than Lucas.

Williams is very versatile composer. He used even electric guitar (!) in the score for Star Wars Episode II (The Chase Through Coruscant). I don't know what Spielberg comments you are referring to.

Quote from: Bogey on May 25, 2007, 02:32:38 PM
These movie soundtrack threads usually are short-lived here, but what the heck.

Just curious where you file these?  That is, do you consider some movie scores to be classical, or do they belong in their own category?  I have noticed that soundtracks are sometimes posted on the classical listening thread, but others put them on the non-classical?  If they are non-classical, then why are the following samples available at Arkive Music, which claims to be one's source for classical music?

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/028947134725-Cvr_178.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/34/343085.JPG) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/54/547800.jpg)

I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other, but just curious about your thoughts.

Yeah. Ballets are classical.....why shouldn't movies be?  As long as they use orchestras. I have a hard time classifying electronic movie scores as classical, but then again Varese and Cage didn't use any orchestras. I just describe it all as 'orchestral' music.   ;D

Anyway, it depends how you use the term classical, do you mean classical which covered everything from the middle ages to postmodern, or do you just mean the Classical period.

Quote from: James on May 26, 2007, 04:33:39 AM

pfff touchy touchy...what i did say earlier does apply to most film music, its done in brief, its meaning doesnt run as deep, its mainly all that these composers do, can you point me to Jerry Goldsmith's more personal chamber works? something that runs a little more deeply and means more than merely provide aural backdrop to a scene...film composers can spend a lot of time on something only to have a director come in and sqwelch it all completely; so yes the scope of their artistry is severly restricted within narrower confines, they arent that FREE ....just curious though what is in your estimation the greatest film music, stuff thats so great that its up there with the best of the 20th century classical compositions?

Recall that many important "classical" composers have composed for film, sometimes extensively: Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Korngold, Copland, Arnold, Bax, Walton, Glass, and so on. And many noted "film composers" have composed for the concert hall.

You seem to imply that total artistic freedom is always available or desirable in the classical world. Do not classical composers at times write to please audiences or earn a buck? Do they not write to flatter patrons? Do they not avoid certain harmonies or intervals or themes because of cultural, religious, or political restrictions? Do they not try to appease state authorities? Do they not often adhere to established forms and the Western system of tonality? Musical, cultural, and financial factors have surely influenced composers across the centuries.

Further, if you think film music is just a bunch of little cues shoehorned into scenes at a director's command, that the music serves merely a "backdrop" to the visuals, and that composers are totally subservient to a director's dictates and never act as artistic collaborators, you really need to watch and study a lot more film. Yes, there are weak scores that do as you describe, but there are many that work at a level far beyond that.

As for film music's "meaning" not running as deep, what does that mean?  If it moves the audience deeply, then it's deep. If it effectively contributes to or shapes the overall artistic experience of a film, then it surely has meaning. Brevity or simplicity by no means preclude depth.

I'm sure some of it will be considered classical in the future (ie. 'lasting'), but I don't put it in the same category as Mahler simply because it's orchestral.

That said, I don't divide my CD collection by category.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 26, 2007, 08:22:08 AM
In case of Star Wars movies Lucas and Williams went through the early cuts of the movies and discussed about what kind of music should be composed to each scene. Lucas told Williams what kind of emotions and feelings he wanted from the music. After that, Williams' hands were free.

I have a feeling that this is pretty typical-- a director hands a composer the script with durations for scenes etc and tells him what he wants for each one.  Then the composer can go to town.  I bet the case of the conductor micromanaging the conductor is in the minority.

The stinker in me can't help but say that Williams did a better job with emotive expression than the actors did!! ;D  BTW As of a couple of days ago Star Wars is 30 years old now. :)

Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2007, 06:01:03 AM
The stinker in me can't help but say that Williams did a better job with emotive expression than the actors did!! ;D  BTW As of a couple of days ago Star Wars is 30 years old now. :)

Bingo! David.

Quote from: The Mad Hatter on May 27, 2007, 04:55:25 AM
I'm sure some of it will be considered classical in the future (ie. 'lasting'), but I don't put it in the same category as Mahler simply because it's orchestral.

That said, I don't divide my CD collection by category.

Do you put Vivaldi and Monteverdi in the same category as Mahler? It's a different era.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 08:28:06 AM
well, i disagree with a lot of what was said...most of it is highly derivative etc., never truly profoundly moving i find and i dont take it all that seriously, despite all this disagreement though & moving on... it can be fun, here are a few I like ...


williams - close encounters of the 3rd kind
herrmann - psycho
carpenter - halloween

Well, it is always safe and convenient to disagree with others without actual composing any sort of literate rebuttal. It is the layman's ally to randomly reduce unspecified clauses as "highly derivative", rather than actually saying what you mean, and pointing out what exactly here is derivative and from where it is being derived. Then again, such would actually require one to put together a cogent argument and refute the previously said statements. For example, I could simply shrug off one's paragraph as reductive and vague. But instead, I will question this notion that film music is limited to an event that can only be fun. I would not exactly call Herrmann's score for Psycho fun, by any means (unless of course your just picking out personal highlights and excluding the substance of the score). Such a value statement says more about the individual rather than the music being judged itself. Also, one's selections are questionable and perhaps indicative of film taste. The true question here is, can you appreciate film itself as an artistic medium? Do you look for film as a possible venue for deep emotion and a exploration of philosophical insights on the human condition? Or is film simply cheap thrills, fun, and temporal escapism? If this is your general assessment of film, you are very unlikely to find anything other than such content in film music either. You are also less likely to view the more challenging films which work on a sheer emotional level, and utilize scores respective of such aims. Therefore, essentially what I am calling into question is not your general view of film music, but rather, your credibility to even speak on the genre as a whole.

I don't think about whether a movie soundtrack is classical or not.  To me, music composed for a film either enhances the film's enjoyment, is neutral or damages it.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 10:05:55 AM
yeah but ive already gone over why i dont dig film music....i thought i was pretty much to the point and clear, and ive heard many of the examples you listed and i simply disagree, in otherwords it doesnt change how i feel about it....you dont have to agree with what i said that is fine.

I am not questioning your like or dislike of film music. I am questioning your credibility to judge the genre as a whole. I really doubt you have genuinely listened to any of the examples I listed besides maybe The Godfather. I was also pointing out the absurdity of generalizing another person's post as derivative without actually explicating the specific instances. If you disagree with an argument, that is one thing, but if you are going to indicate flaws or faults in another's argument, you should not be so dense to do so without any sort of supporting logic. I can see you are one of those who states an opinion, then quickly abandons any supporting defense once a counter argument has been established. Perhaps it is my own naivety to expect an actual music discussion on a classical music forum.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 27, 2007, 10:22:33 AM
Perhaps it is my own naivety to expect an actual music discussion on a classical music forum.

yes it is.

Quote from: Don on May 27, 2007, 09:48:28 AM
I don't think about whether a movie soundtrack is classical or not.  To me, music composed for a film either enhances the film's enjoyment, is neutral or damages it.

That goes for any music used for a movie soundtrack.  There is no more chilling moment in film for me than when Hannibal Lecter, with blood on his mouth, listens raptly and even "conducts" the Goldberg Variations while surrounded by the great art of the Philadelphia Museum.  what makes it even more chilling is that when he starts, the Aria is playing.  As the scene ends Lecter is listening to the Aria da Capo.  The juxtaposition of something so sublime with something so monstrous makes that scene one of the most effective, and rescues it from being purely a crime and slime.  It could never have had the same impact if Ozzie Osborne, for instance, was on. 

You won't find it on the soundtrack album, though as it wasn't composed for the movie 

Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2007, 06:01:03 AM
BTW As of a couple of days ago Star Wars is 30 years old now. :)

Damn...which would make me how old? I don't want to think about it. :( You're right, David...it was released in 1977. I saw for the first time during its first theatrical run in a theater in Indianoplis (I was going to school at Fort Ben Harrison). I still recall being blown away by that opening scene, the scrolling and then the two ships....wow...

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 27, 2007, 11:03:41 AM
Damn...which would make me how old? I don't want to think about it. :( You're right, David...it was released in 1977. I saw for the first time during its first theatrical run in a theater in Indianoplis (I was going to school at Fort Ben Harrison). I still recall being blown away by that opening scene, the scrolling and then the two ships....wow...

Sarge

I'm too young for an opening day experience (wasn't even alive then) but I did get a chance at a theater experience... when it was rereleased.  The only sad thing about it was all of the special changes he did to his movie.  Instead of just touching it up, Lucas added a bunch of stuff that was kind of lame.  I ended up seeing the first movie twice, and then the second one, and I skipped Return of the Jedi.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 10:37:02 AM
hahaha no need to get pedantic over this....i have heard the examples you listed my friend, and of course, i have seen many many films...sure, within the realm of film music a tiny minority of stuff is good, but beyond that realm? nah...it doesnt even begin to come close to the most profound music i have heard. A blast of joy ... adrenalin ... nostalgia - YES FOR SURE ... but spiritual sustenance ... ? solace? ... the breadth & depth of truly great art music? ... even some meat for existential & philosophical rumination? lol .... Hmmm not sure about all that.

How is soliciting a discussion pedantic? Which compositions have you heard? There is probably more "meat for existential philosophical rumination" in film music than you will find in any music written in the 18th or 19th century. Existentialism is a 20th Century philosophy, and postmodernism entails music such as serialism, minimalism, and avant-garde music which reflects an individual person's struggle with the possibility of a meaningless universe. All of this music you can find most prominent in film. You have the foundations laid by the 20th Century angst of Mahler and Shostakovich, and from there its the mid-late 20th Century modernism to where film music becomes increasingly the dominant orchestral medium. The films of Alfred Hitchcock, Darren Aronofsky, Fredrico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, Martin Scorsese, and Ingmar Bergman are directly associated with existential philosophical inquiries. The music used by these directors are the heart and soul of their films, which lays the foundation for the deeply thought provoking and emotionally bleak underpinnings found within. If you take away the score from the Martin Scorsese existential cinema classic Taxi Driver, you have taken the life from the film. Fellini's La Strada and Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal are two of the most challenging philosophical films ever made, and their music is the very life of the film's meaning and emotional experience. These scores are anything but fun, but rather deeply haunting and poignant. Yet, you say you have seen the films I have listed, but still I am not convinced. Elaborate on the films you have seen which actually challenge the viewer. Once again, I am not inquiring on your enjoyment of film music, but rather your general credibility to assess the genre as a whole. Without a true conviction or appreciation for film, you cannot grasp the power of its music. Similarly, without a true love or genuine respect for the theatrics and conception of Opera, you can never truly appreciate the whole of its music beyond a superficial enjoyment.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 27, 2007, 12:25:48 PM
How is soliciting a discussion pedantic? Which compositions have you heard? There is probably more "meat for existential philosophical rumination" in film music than you will find in any music written in the 18th or 19th century. Existentialism is a 20th Century philosophy, and postmodernism entails music such as serialism, minimalism, and avant-garde music which reflects an individual person's struggle with the possibility of a meaningless universe. All of this music you can find most prominent in film. You have the foundations laid by the 20th Century angst of Mahler and Shostakovich, and from there its the mid-late 20th Century modernism to where film music becomes increasingly the dominant orchestral medium. The films of Alfred Hitchcock, Darren Aronofsky, Fredrico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, Martin Scorsese, and Ingmar Bergman are directly associated with existential philosophical inquiries. The music used by these directors are the heart and soul of their films, which lays the foundation for the deeply thought provoking and emotionally bleak underpinnings found within. If you take away the score from the Martin Scorsese existential cinema classic Taxi Driver, you have taken the life from the film. Fellini's La Strada and Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal are two of the most challenging philosophical films ever made, and their music is the very life of the film's meaning and emotional experience. These scores are anything but fun, but rather deeply haunting and poignant. Yet, you say you have seen the films I have listed, but still I am not convinced. Elaborate on the films you have seen which actually challenge the viewer. Once again, I am not inquiring on your enjoyment of film music, but rather your general credibility to assess the genre as a whole. Without a true conviction or appreciation for film, you cannot grasp the power of its music. Similarly, without a true love or genuine respect for the theatrics and conception of Opera, you can never truly appreciate the whole of its music beyond a superficial enjoyment.

You seem to be laying it on extra thick.  It's just movie music, you know.  Also, I find it very odd to think that Taxi Driver would have no life without its soundtrack.  Actually, I feel this movie would have been most effective without any soundtrack at all.

Also, your arrogant tone towards James is a loser.  To suggest that he doesn't understand the film genre is ridiculous.  Then again, you'll likely think I don't understand it either. 8)

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 12:35:19 PM
OK OK ...enough already...i'll check out some of these again!!!!

I'm expecting to have a life changing experience, or I'll be coming looking for blood.

Heh... it's not my intention to change your opinion necessarily. I just believe, in order for someone to truly have a credible opinion on film music you have to a considerable respect for the medium in which it is composed for. If you explore the films of a true art directors, and not the typical mainstream studio fanfare, you will be exposed to a lot of great music. If your opinion is unchanged, at least you will have a perspective and grounds for insight for where those who greatly value this music are coming from, and perhaps understand why Carnegie Hall would host sold out concerts for the music of Ennio Morricone.

Quote from: Don on May 27, 2007, 12:31:44 PM
You seem to be laying it on extra thick.  It's just movie music, you know.  Also, I find it very odd to think that Taxi Driver would have no life without its soundtrack.  Actually, I feel this movie would have been most effective without any soundtrack at all.

Also, your arrogant tone towards James is a loser.  To suggest that he doesn't understand the film genre is ridiculous.  Then again, you'll likely think I don't understand it either. 8)

I don't know if you understand film or not. I don't know if I understand film either; but at least if you have a broad experience with film you can discuss it intellectually. I only challenged James to elaborate on his experiences with film music, to which it seemed he was very reluctant to do. I disagree that its "just movie music", which is the point of my argument.

As for Taxi Driver, yes perhaps it would have been effective without the music, but most effective? It is widely considered one of the finest scores written for a film, and properly invokes the atmosphere, mood, and cynicism of the character during many of the scenes. Taxi Driver in itself is a very subtle film, as is the score, but many filmmakers believe music is the magic which brings life to the film's mood and meaning. I think this is very true for Nino Rota's The Godfather and La Strada. It is similar to the way the actor's performance brings life to the film's written dialogue. I am not asking if you, James, or anyone understands film, but more importantly, how much do truly you appreciate it? If film isn't as meaningful to you as say a novel or an opera, then I can easily understand your sentiments that film music is just nothing more than "movie music" after all.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 27, 2007, 12:50:07 PM
Heh... it's not my intention to change your opinion necessarily. I just believe, in order for someone to truly have a credible opinion on film music you have to a considerable respect for the medium in which it is composed for. If you explore the films of a true art directors, and not the typical mainstream studio fanfare, you will be exposed to a lot of great music. If your opinion is unchanged, at least you will have a perspective and grounds for insight for where those who greatly value this music are coming from, and perhaps understand why Carnegie Hall would host sold out concerts for the music of Ennio Morricone.

Our local arena sells out for tractor pulls - "Sold out" is by itself not an impressive calling-card.  Now Morricone did compose many dozens of pieces of music in the "absolute" category.  Hope that the Carnegie Hall crowd didn't have endure an endless litany of movie music.  It's great when attached to DiNiro or Eastwood but suffers on its own.

Quote from: Don on May 27, 2007, 01:11:55 PM
Our local arena sells out for tractor pulls - "Sold out" is by itself not an impressive calling-card.  Now Morricone did compose many dozens of pieces of music in the "absolute" category.  Hope that the Carnegie Hall crowd didn't have endure an endless litany of movie music.  It's great when attached to DiNiro or Eastwood but suffers on its own.

That's unfortunate you feel that way. I am quite sure those who attend an Ennio Morricone concert expect film music as foremost and priority. Just like most concertgoes, they most want the familiar and beloved tunes for which they paid their ticket, not some obscure, unpopular concert work outside of the composer's specialization. I disagree considerably on his scores for The Mission and Once Upon A Time In America. Both of which can be enjoyed throughly, and "Gabriel's Oboe" contained in the former is one of the most beautiful pieces the composer has written, and holds up to any great form of "absolute music" by the purists typical favorite.

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 27, 2007, 01:23:43 PM
That's unfortunate you feel that way. I am quite sure those who attend an Ennio Morricone concert expect film music as foremost and priority. Just like most concertgoes, they most want the familiar and beloved tunes for which they paid their ticket, not some obscure, unpopular concert work outside of the composer's specialization.

If they are so enamored of his film music, why don't they simply purchase the applicable movies?  Oh well, if someone wants to pay good money to hear film music without the film, that's their business.  I continue to maintain that film music loses much when divorced from the film.  It makes sense, and I also hear the loss.

Quote from: Don on May 27, 2007, 01:52:51 PM
If they are so enamored of his film music, why don't they simply purchase the applicable movies?

Uh...dialogue? Sound effects?  Do you want to buy Beethoven's 5th with some random people talking randomly over the music?


did you seriously just suggest that if one wants to hear film music, that they should buy the film?? I have tons of film CDs of movies that I have never seen, and a good percentage that I have no desire of ever seeing.  The music is good, I enjoy it, and that's why I have it. I might go see a movie if it's composed by a composer I like, but most of the time I don't bother, movies are expensive, and I tend to prefer TV more anyway.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 01:44:44 PM
er, i dont understand what you are expecting from me, last time I listened the "emotional response" ... and "noticing & observing things" was the sum total of MY musical experience, which i have went over already with regards to film music and is why i feel i dont really need to own or listen to it much ... tell me, what am I missing?

If i were to compare my experiences of listening to film music with Bach for instance ...When I hear Bach, his music is so moving & so humbling...  his musical utterence exists on a level of human-spiritual nobility that serenely floats above the transient & inconsistent attempts of even the very great composers who followed him ... and they knew it too ! Its incomparable... the greatest solace, and the greatest joy. If anyone could convince me there is a divine hand in things ... he would do it. Film composer who? lol

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. When I say elaborate on experiences, I am not talking about the emotional feelings elicited by the music. I am talking about the different types of films and film music you have heard which constitute the basis for your general judgment of the genre. Nevertheless, if you stand by checking out the selections I listed and are still unimpressed, then at least we will actually have something to talk about.

Quote from: Don on May 27, 2007, 01:52:51 PM
If they are so enamored of his film music, why don't they simply purchase the applicable movies?  Oh well, if someone wants to pay good money to hear film music without the film, that's their business.  I continue to maintain that film music loses much when divorced from the film.  It makes sense, and I also hear the loss.

I suppose for the same reason I will buy a disc of Mozart arias from the store. The images and associations are already in my mind after seeing Don Giovani. I do not wish to recreate the opera experience, but rather appreciate the music itself in another venue. It's beautiful music, and I wish to savor it. I don't doubt the fans of Ennio Morricone own many of the films from the selected works. This is a form of flawed logic to assume concertgoers would not just as enjoy witnessing a live orchestra reinterpret his music just the same as those who do for any other sort of program music. The thematic emotions remain with the music. It is not the same as the film experience, but a different experience all on its own, and a general appreciation of the music. It is this sort of alienating reasoning which inhibits one from appreciating the music the same as other forms of program music.

Quote from: tjguitar on May 27, 2007, 02:09:48 PM
Uh...dialogue? Sound effects?  Do you want to buy Beethoven's 5th with some random people talking randomly over the music?


did you seriously just suggest that if one wants to hear film music, that they should buy the film?? I have tons of film CDs of movies that I have never seen, and a good percentage that I have no desire of ever seeing.  The music is good, I enjoy it, and that's why I have it. I might go see a movie if it's composed by a composer I like, but most of the time I don't bother, movies are expensive, and I tend to prefer TV more anyway.

He is talking more about separating the music from the film experience, and its relation to the images for the viewer. The problem is that this holds true for any form of program music, and does not mean the viewer cannot appreciate the music for music's sake, rather than the sum of a comprehensive artistic experience when viewing a film.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 02:29:33 PM
pffff you a preacher? do you like listening to yourself talk? Like anyone else whos been around and gets out, OF COURSE ive experienced HORDES of movies of all kinds. I have heard many of the selections you have listed, & loads else as ive already stated before many times, perhaps youre not following....and i dont care what kind of movie its from, i am generally unimpressed with it as ive stated previously. Nothing you can say will change that. No offence but, the music of film composers is a musical amoeba compared with the greatest most profoundly moving music i have heard. It doesnt even remotely come close.


There isnt much else to discuss beyond that...

Which films have you seen from my list? This point is isolated from the rest of my argument. Of course you have seen "hordes" of movies, who hasn't? But how do you regard cinema? Do you appreciate it on a philosophical and emotional level in the same degree as other forms of art? If not, then you are right, when it comes to film music there is nothing to discuss.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 03:01:09 PM
cant be assed to go back and check your list sorry....from it, i remember you mentioning the glass work which ive heard, and i dont like his music at all Zzzz, scorscese (whos one of my fave directors), as is hitchcock...but so what? ive heard many of the highly regarded film scores and seen the movies also, im a bit of movie fan and like all sorts...

I'll repost it for you:

1. Sergei Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky
2. Philip Glass' Koyaanisqatsi
3. Nino Rota's La Strada
4. Shostakovich's The Gadfly
5. Nino Rota's The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, The Godfather Part III
6. Bernard Herrman's Vertigo
7. Ennio Morricone's Once Upon A Time In America
8. Philip Glass' The Hours
9. Ennio Morricone's The Mission
10. Clint Mansell's Requiem For A Dream

Which of these films in particular have you seen?

Quote from: JamesThis is a very different response from that which I get to music that I deeply love, which is a mystery and a Wonder to me.... of course music serves many purposes and feeds many hungers, but personally speaking the greatest joy & the greatest solace in life comes from the Mystery of music... music is unquestionably the deepest of the arts. So yeah, I like it better than film.

I am sure you like it better than film. But it seems you just like good storytelling and not much else. I think a lot of people feel cinema is a culmination of storytelling, performance, sound, and visual -- working equally in offering different components to the film. A good story isn't much with horrible actors, etc; Based on your assessment of film, I assume you do not like opera, musicals, or plays set to music, as they are not much different than cinema. I suppose in your view, music in these genres simply act as wallpaper and background noise merely reinforcing the visuals and story. It's a shame, because there is some truly profound stuff found in program music.

I just got back from watching an enjoyable indy 500. I just scanned over these posts. I just have a very short message here. James I could care less what  you think of movie music. Your B.S. is putting me to sleep. Israrfel is spending much too much time on this subject. I can only say that if it werent for movie music my interest in classical would probably never have happened....I do not compare classical composers with Movie Composers.  Why should I.... I enjoy alot of Movie music.  Ease up......Actually I am still waiting for another maven (sound67) to post his list......not worth getting bent out of shape over...... :'(

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 03:53:15 PM
Robert this discussion is putting me to sleep ...


Israel....I have seen most of those films....not all but most, but i dont see what it has to do with anything...for me, yes...at the core of the best films you must have a good concept coupled with strong writing. Without this in place from the get go, well........

ok, thats it for me, were flogging a dead horse here and i went through it all already and dont want to get that involved anymore....

AMEN
Thank You James.....

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 03:53:15 PM
Robert this discussion is putting me to sleep ...


Israel....I have seen most of those films....not all but most, but i dont see what it has to do with anything...for me, yes...at the core of the best films you must have a good concept coupled with strong writing. Without this in place from the get go, well........

ok, thats it for me, were flogging a dead horse here and i went through it all already and dont want to get that involved anymore....

The discussion put you to sleep because you avoided the same question about 5 times. You refuse to name a specific title because you will be unable to debate the music and content of the film once it is in question because I don't think you have seen any of the films I have listed. I don't see how establishing the story as the starting point for the film creation has anything to do with the final product. The libretto is the first part of the Opera, but probably not the most important.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 09:02:58 PM
do about this, you dont have to agree....and i said i have seen most of those films, and i have, i dont know how damn specific you want me to get? what is it exactly that you do not understand or comprehend? i dont go to the movie theater to hear the music, hell after a film experience a barely even consider or remember the music, thats the TRUTH....but the film music isnt the draw in the first place, nor

If you can watch a film and barely even consider or remember the music, that means one of two things: the music sucked and didn't perform its role adequately, or you aren't much of a movie lover and just aren't paying adequate attention, like someone who half listens to a Bach cantata and jumps to the conclusion "Classical music sucks, what a bore." It sounds like you don't really appreciate and analyze film as an art form, seeing how readily you dismiss or ignore one of its major components. This reminds me of the popular music thread, wherein you trivialized and underestimated jazz despite making it clear you don't have much empathy for or understanding of it in the first place.

Your Zappa signature quote is ironic :)

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 09:02:58 PM
and i do not like opera, tend to prefer undramatised purest concert music, with nil corporate utility and free of sickly emotionalism that bogs down a lot of music...

ok, thats it for good now, had to get that off my chest.

So, basically, you're braindead AND emotionally hollow. Completely vacuous.

Quote from: Grazioso on May 28, 2007, 03:47:48 AM
Your Zappa signature quote is ironic :)

I already told him. But he doesn't even realize THAT. How would he ever intellectually grasp something as complex as motion picture music?

Quote from: sound67 on May 26, 2007, 02:44:38 AM

I do not agree with Bogey however that entire soundtracks should be released. Each and every complete soundtrack release is bound to be repetitive. Movie music benefits from regrouping and sometimes "remaking" the music into concert suites etc.

Thomas

I guess I should clarify this a bit more Thomas.  Would it not be nice to have both to choose from.  That is, an initial release of the soundtrack like most of them are now, and a later release that includes all the cues that were recorded, especially should one really enjoy the initial release.  Or at the VERY least, the complete score as used in the movie.  For example, I am most pleased that they took the time to release/add another full disc to the Superman music on disc (it originally came in a two LP format I believe).  Here is a review explaining:

Finally, more than 20 years after the premiere of Superman: The Movie, Warner Bros. and ace producer Nick Redman teamed up to present the complete score to this awesome comic book epic. At last, Williams' legions of fans can now hear the Prologue and Main Title as they were presented in the film, and several other previously unreleased tracks -- some never used in the final cut of the movie -- are heard for the first time. Also, as in other Redman-produced re-issues, the cues appear in chronological order, following the plot of Superman from beginning to end. In addition, alternative versions of the Superman March and the "Can You Read My Mind" vocal have been included.

I'm sure the above may not be for everybody, but I rather have the option of simply pressing my "next" button on my cd player (which I rarely do) than having an incomplete score.

FWIW, Film Score Monthly does a fantastic job of this, that is going back and remastering scores and making sure that as much of the music that has survived making it onto disc.

And your point about repetitiveness is well taken, however I have had fun from time to time, like I will today, listening to STAR WARS: A NEW HOPE in light of its 30th Anniversary.  It has some repetition that I am glad survived, and I quote from the liner notes :

As a special bonus, all five of the recorded takes of the Main Title are presented at the end of track 13 on Compact Disc One.  At the conclusion of the "Binary Suite (alternate)", two minutes and forty five seconds of silence precedes the continuous presentation of takes 16 through 20, complete with slate numbers and incidental noise.  Take 16 has particular historical value, as it is the world's first recording of the Star Wars theme.  In it the wind section provides prominent flourish, which was toned down in take 17 after Williams and Lucas evaluated the feedback.  The addition of brass to the second half of the cue distinguishes takes 18, 19, and 20, portions of which were utilized to create the edited Main Title as heard on track 2 and in the film.

I can also see where the above repetitiveness is not for everybody, but I am pleased to have these repeats and extra cues on my shelf.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 08:57:58 AM


Grazioso,

youre dead wrong about that my friend, i love movies, and youre arguement that the background music is one of the most important components of a film doesnt hold any water at all my friend, its simply not true. ..hardly a consideration of someone who is following a movie's story. and its never the draw of the movie goer. NEVER. like i said earlier in this thread i find much music in film, unnecessary and even intrusive....a lot of it is melodramatic cheese, overblown slushy corny tunes & formalic...

I hope you excuse the cropping of your thread here james, but wanted to focus in on this point.  Though I believe we are discussing just a matter of personal taste here, there are films where the music can "BE THE SHOW" at moments IMO, or at the very least heighten them.  For example:

The famous cue from Jaws (First Victim/and used in other cues) made that opening scene in my opinion. (Williams)

Another, The Murder (shower scene) in Psycho.  Herrmann's music brought Hithcock's work here to a level that I find unmatched.

And then there is Shore's The Bridge Of Khazd Dum....man, that music definitely makes my heart pound faster during this scene.

The list could go on from my perspective.  I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Oh, and one more: Williams' The Imperial March....'nuff said here.  ;)

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 09:02:58 PM
no, because youre absolutely brain dead and going nowhere with this, just someone whos SO touchy, protective & defensive about it, someone who continues to prod and question endlessly and cant take a hint! i have explained myself quite clearly and why i feel the way i do about this, you dont have to agree....and i said i have seen most of those films, and i have, i dont know how damn specific you want me to get? what is it exactly that you do not understand or comprehend? i dont go to the movie theater to hear the music, hell after a film experience a barely even consider or remember the music, thats the TRUTH....but the film music isnt the draw in the first place, nor however complex the production details....i go because the story and concept intrigues me. Who goes to a movie for the music first and foremost? Puh-lease..i know i dont.....You can take anyone one of those films and discuss it till youre blue in the face and it still wont change my idea and feeling towards anything i have already said. In fact, with those films you mentioned, some i remember, and some i plain dont, like most movies...in fact, i dont really watch movies over and over (there is no need to i find), once ive seen it, thats about it...it either stays with me for a bit (the good stuff) but usually it gets quickly forgotten! But i do like watching movies for entertainment.... and go to the movie theater quite a bit!!!

and i do not like opera, tend to prefer undramatised purest concert music, with nil corporate utility and free of sickly emotionalism that bogs down a lot of music...

ok, thats it for good now, had to get that off my chest.

The excessive ad hominem attacks plagued throughout your otherwise thoughtless post are both tactless and evasive. Instead of attacking my intelligence, perhaps it would be wiser to consider the actual question you are constantly evading. In an argument, it becomes necessary to continually repeat the same question until it has been answered in order for us to make any sort of progress in the discussion. Therefore, as you criticize me for drawing out a long argument through repetition of the same question, you yourself are exhausting the discussion due to your reluctance to answer this very simple question. There is nothing "protective or defensive" about my straightforward inquiry on which film in particular have you seen from my list. You claim you have seen several of them in at least four different posts, yet you refuse to name which one, even after the list was recreated for you. It would seem, for someone who has seen several of these films, it would be nothing for you to just mention the ones you have seen. Yet, it appears, as indicated by the end of your post, you have trouble remembering the films you have seen because they are rather insignificant and do not mean anything more than entertainment to you. This fits perfectly with my initial argument which was attached to my question. As it were, for someone who does not truly appreciate film as an art medium, and who views it as nothing more than entertainment, there is nothing to gain from this discussion, and as a result, your stance on film music is now already evident. I have established this point consistently throughout each of my posts. You simply do not appreciate film enough to value its music. Likewise, as you have indicated, you do not appreciate opera either, and naturally its music is viewed inferior to other forms of music. Therefore, your overall credibility to speak on film music as whole is both limited and of no real value, represented by your general view that it is merely an entertainment medium in which you are unlikely to view films more than once (which means films do not have a significant impact on you, nor are you able to get reacquainted with the elements of the film which contribute to the overall latent experience), which is coupled with your inability to name a single film you have seen from my list.

Well, I've seen The Mission and Vertigo.  What's your point about the music for these two films?

What did you think of the movies?

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 11:23:58 AM
Sure, same applies famously to Carpenter's Halloween slasher flick, with the catchy themes, the music can sometimes enhance or compliment what is already there visually, and stand out in moments of a film, the often predictable scary music and sentimental passages etc, but its never the show though, its more a little icing on the cake, but you must have the cake FIRST, a crappy story with great music, is still a crap story, you can try to polish that turd, but it will always be a turd, but a great story with even mediocre or no music can work.......nor is film music, getting back to my core point as moving or profound, even the very best of them....and my point that you selectively snipped from, was that you dont go to those films initially based on the background music do you? No, you go because you liked the concept of those films to begin with. Jaws & Psycho are 2 of my favorite films btw. I love those stories. So is Taxi Driver, actually I generally really like the work of Scorcese and Hitchcock A LOT. But I also like many many films where there is hardly, if any, music at all. I like films solely based on the story/concept, that is where it is at for me. In fact, I tend to prefer scaled down and simple movies, where the heart lies in the strength of the story and dialog, rather than in all the surface production and flash, so not so much overblown Hollywood fair.

I liked both the Mission and Vertigo, i barely recall the music though off hand....

You did say this discussion was putting you to sleep. I had decided to drop out until you mentioned you could not remember the music of mission or vertigo. Might I remind you of the nightmare scene (SAUL BASS) that Jimmy Stewart has.. between the cartoon artwork and the music that made the scene. How could you forget Gabriels Oboe.??..Perhaps you need to turn your hearing aid up abit when you go to these movies...

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 28, 2007, 11:10:20 AM
What did you think of the movies?

I love both Vertigo and The Mission.  I don't recall much about the Vertigo music except that I thought it over-the-top.  I think the score to The Mission is much better and it has stuck in my memory bank; the music enhanced my enjoyment of the film, so it served its primary purpose.

My wife and I will be watching The Queen today; I'll try to keep my ears glued to the music and will ask Ellen Jane her opinion also.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 11:23:58 AM
Sure, same applies famously to Carpenter's Halloween slasher flick, with the catchy themes, the music can sometimes enhance or compliment what is already there visually, and stand out in moments of a film, the often predictable scary music and sentimental passages etc, but its never the show though, its more a little icing on the cake....

From what I have read, and heard in interviews, I believe that the likes Hitchcock, Spielberg, and Scorsese take the music component of their films a bit more seriously than "icing on the cake".  Sometimes even enough to fire someone like Bernard Herrmann (see Torn Curtain).  I could be wrong here, but doubt it.  However, here is a story you may or may not be familiar with that addresses Hitch wanting no music and Herrmann going the other way:

Hitchcock filmed Psycho on a tight television production budget and schedule, completing filming with a television crew in only five weeks. Upon completion of principal photography Hitchcock himself had begun to have serious misgivings about the picture. It seemed somehow flat and lifeless, and he gave serious thought for a time to cutting the film down to an hour and releasing it as a part of his long running television series. When Bernard Herrmann viewed the film he saw deeper possibilities and asked the director to entrust the film to him while the director went away on vacation. Hitchcock agreed asking only one favor of Herrmann, that he not score the shower sequence, preferring that the murder be illustrated only by the lonely sound of the running shower. When Hitchcock returned from vacation he viewed the picture with the additional element of music. Due to budgetary constraints, Herrmann was reduced to using only strings for the film without any other instrumentation. (The composer remarked later that a black and white film required the simplicity of a black and white score) Herrmann had, however, ignored Hitchcock's instruction not to score the shower sequence, trusting that he had enough respect from his employer to take a chance on risking the loss of the director's legendary temper. When Hitchcock saw the completed scenes with Herrmann's shrieking violins tearing at Janet Leigh's vulnerable torso, along with Anthony Perkins' knife, he gave his nod of approval. "But Hitch," Herrmann asked. "I thought you didn't want any music during the shower sequence?" To which Hitchcock replied "Improper suggestion, my boy, improper suggestion."

and a link to the rest, should you wish to read it, which I highly recommend:

http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/misc/torncurtain/

Robert,
Is that you on the right?  :)
(http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/misc/torncurtain/hitch_herrmann_1.jpg/medium)

Quote from: Bogey on May 28, 2007, 12:05:55 PM
From what I have read, and heard in interviews, I believe that the likes Hitchcock, Spielberg, and Scorsese take the music component of their films a bit more seriously than "icing on the cake".  Sometimes even enough to fire someone like Bernard Herrmann (see Torn Curtain).  I could be wrong here, but doubt it.  However, here is a story you may or may not be familiar with that addresses Hitch wanting no music and Herrmann going the other way:

Hitchcock filmed Psycho on a tight television production budget and schedule, completing filming with a television crew in only five weeks. Upon completion of principal photography Hitchcock himself had begun to have serious misgivings about the picture. It seemed somehow flat and lifeless, and he gave serious thought for a time to cutting the film down to an hour and releasing it as a part of his long running television series. When Bernard Herrmann viewed the film he saw deeper possibilities and asked the director to entrust the film to him while the director went away on vacation. Hitchcock agreed asking only one favor of Herrmann, that he not score the shower sequence, preferring that the murder be illustrated only by the lonely sound of the running shower. When Hitchcock returned from vacation he viewed the picture with the additional element of music. Due to budgetary constraints, Herrmann was reduced to using only strings for the film without any other instrumentation. (The composer remarked later that a black and white film required the simplicity of a black and white score) Herrmann had, however, ignored Hitchcock's instruction not to score the shower sequence, trusting that he had enough respect from his employer to take a chance on risking the loss of the director's legendary temper. When Hitchcock saw the completed scenes with Herrmann's shrieking violins tearing at Janet Leigh's vulnerable torso, along with Anthony Perkins' knife, he gave his nod of approval. "But Hitch," Herrmann asked. "I thought you didn't want any music during the shower sequence?" To which Hitchcock replied "Improper suggestion, my boy, improper suggestion."

and a link to the rest, should you wish to read it, which I highly recommend:

http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/misc/torncurtain/

Robert,
Is that you on the right?  :)
(http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles/misc/torncurtain/hitch_herrmann_1.jpg/medium)

Yes Bill, in one of my more classic poses. except I wear tinted glasses....Im sure you remember my sleeping through this thread....James just won't let me rest..... ;)I do give him some credit here for being very persistent.....its only a movie.....see what you started >:D BTW your hitch story is correct....

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 12:13:14 PM
havent seen either in a long long time i must admit, though i generally remember liking them, Vertigo more so than the Mission...i wonder how they will hold up, watching movies a 2nd time around is never like the first experience because you know how it goes already, i never buy movies, and rarely watch movies again and again ...i remember catching Star Wars for the 2nd time many years later on tv, i liked it as a kid, but now its just essentially cowboys and indians in outer space to me and a joke...ive always loved the concept of jaws too, but after seeing bits again many years later its not the same...

And Bogey, of course, the director have to consider it more than the movie goer, still doesnt prove anything...because without a strong story there from the get go, you have nothing.  :)

James I sometimes watch movies more than once (IE: Hitchcock and Woody Allen) on the other hand my youngest daughter (10) and my wife can watch movies over and over and over...

Quote from: JamesI liked both the Mission and Vertigo, i barely recall the music though off hand....

Or the movies themselves, I surmise.

Quote from: JamesIn Vertigo, I vividly remember the use of Mozart, and the use of Poulenc in Hitchcock's The Rope. And the use of Bartok & Ligeti works in some of Kubrick's efforts.

That's interesting. You hear a work from a renowned classical composer and instantly remember the music, yet interestingly forget the other "unnecessary and intrusive" music being played randomly throughout. It is clear you are true music aficionado who only hears the brilliance of past geniuses and filters out the rest.

Quote from: Don on May 28, 2007, 11:56:10 AM
I love both Vertigo and The Mission.  I don't recall much about the Vertigo music except that I thought it over-the-top.  I think the score to The Mission is much better and it has stuck in my memory bank; the music enhanced my enjoyment of the film, so it served its primary purpose.

My wife and I will be watching The Queen today; I'll try to keep my ears glued to the music and will ask Ellen Jane her opinion also.

I haven't seen The Queen. I would suggest Children of Men and Volver for some great films of 2006 if you have not seen them, and both very strong musically. L'Enfant is also a great film which utilizes no score at all in the film, and is still very affecting. However, the fact that both you and James are unable to recall the music of Vertigo I think is rather telling in itself. I could understand for the casual viewer, but for orchestral music fans, it is a bit surprising. Nevertheless, I do not notice every detail involved in contributing to my enjoyment of the film experience. I believe neither of you are realizing the latent experience involved in viewing a film, which fortunately we have filmmakers who are devoted craftsman with mindsets aware of the power of music, whether latent or not. It may be a compelling performance that exemplifies a specific scene, yet in my mind I may only recall the great writing, or vice versa. This does not mean either is subjected to the other, or that they are in the background merely confirming the others autonomy, but rather working in unison, the way the cello does with the double basses of an orchestra, or a solo bassoon passage played in a symphonic piece. This is the greatness of the film experience. Unfortunately, James doesn't watch movies more than once, but I have often returned to a film and realized how brilliant the music was in a particularly moving scene that I was so invested in initially I did not extract the individual components of the experience. I then would go out and buy the soundtrack, and appreciate the music on its own terms. Nevertheless, if film is merely entertainment for the both of you, then the discussion of art music in film is ultimately moot.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 08:57:58 AM
Grazioso,

youre dead wrong about that my friend, i love movies, and youre arguement that the background music is one of the most important components of a film doesnt hold any water at all my friend, its simply not true. ..hardly a consideration of someone who is following a movie's story. and its never the draw of the movie goer. NEVER. like i said earlier in this thread i find much music in film, unnecessary and even intrusive....a lot of it is melodramatic cheese, overblown slushy corny tunes & formalic...and the very few movie scores, which get any attention apart from the film, are nowhere near in my experience as profoundly deep or moving as the greatest that art music has to offer as ive already clearly stated before. It seems with those Hollywood guys, all that matters is that John Williams or one of the usual clique, get the chance to use up lots of money on music on the premise that only a big budget film with big budget music from a big orchestra is any good, when in fact generally the opposite is true !

The fact that you lump film music into the category of "background music" demonstrates that you don't know film well or only appreciate it on the simplistic level of "story with visuals and a little music". At its best, the music is an integral part of the art form, working in concert with the visuals and other audio to create the full emotional impact and import of each scene. Yes, there's indifferent, tedious film music, just as there is prosaic cinematography, unimaginative scripts, and inept acting. But the good music is indelibly linked to the overall experience because of how profoundly it helps shape the way we perceive what we're seeing (and vice versa).

For me, as a music lover and film lover alike, I necessarily pay attention to what's happening sonically during each scene, not just the dialog or visuals. I can't help but remember particular scenes or my experience of whole films without their music immediately leaping to mind since it forms an inextricable part of the whole. Indeed, sometimes the music sticks with me long after the rest.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 12:13:14 PM
And Bogey, of course, the director have to consider it more than the movie goer, still doesnt prove anything...because without a strong story there from the get go, you have nothing.  :)

I do not disagree that one needs a strong story for a good film....nonetheless, the music can be as profound/memorable/enjoyable, at least for me, as much as the film.  Maybe that is why I own just as many, if not more, soundtracks than dvds.

However, sometimes the music is worth having even when the story is poor.  The following fall into that category for me:

The American President
Batman
Down With Love
Hook
Legends of the Fall
and of course, Titanic

Quote from: Bogey on May 28, 2007, 12:47:22 PM
I do not disagree that one needs a strong story for a good film....nonetheless, the music can be as profound/memorable/enjoyable, at least for me, as much as the film.  Maybe that is why I own just as many, if not more, soundtracks than dvds.

However, sometimes the music is worth having even when the story is poor.  The following fall into that category for me:

The American President
Batman
Down With Love
Hook
Legends of the Fall
and of course, Titanic

Bill
What about Gladiator??

Coincidentally, Alex Ross posted this on his blog (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2007/05/film_score_top_.html) in pondering scores to film comedies.  I do agree with his assessment of the music to Vertigo and Chinatown (which I forgot about).

--Bruce

Quote from: bhodges on May 28, 2007, 12:59:11 PM
Coincidentally, Alex Ross posted this on his blog (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2007/05/film_score_top_.html) in pondering scores to film comedies.  I do agree with his assessment of the music to Vertigo and Chinatown (which I forgot about).

--Bruce

We all know what movie that photo is from?   Now I am trying to figure out how that scene would play out without any music.....IT WON"T.......

Quote from: Robert on May 28, 2007, 12:54:29 PM
Bill
What about Gladiator??

Ah!  I knew there was reason I enjoyed that film so much. ;D

May not count, as the full soundtrack is far from being classical infused, but I like Thomas Newman's closing theme from American Beauty as a [sort of] minimalist composition.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 01:13:41 PM
Most yes.

Yes i do remember those Hitchcock instances, the use of music was integral to the actual character dialog, script and scene, it wasnt some tacked on later added background music. The Kubrick i remember, because I am a huge admirer of Bartok & Ligeti, their music means so much to me...so it just stands out instantly.

I take it you loved Amadeus and immortal beloved....mostly because you know their music?

Quote from: orbital on May 28, 2007, 01:14:30 PM
May not count, as the full soundtrack is far from being classical infused, but I like Thomas Newman's closing theme from American Beauty as a [sort of] minimalist composition.

Well Philip Glass' score for The Hours is beautiful post-minimalism. It varies structurally and musically, but maintains consistent rhythms and arpeggios, ala a Bruckner symphony.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 01:13:41 PM
Yes i do remember those Hitchcock instances, the use of music was integral to the actual character dialog, script and scene, it wasnt some tacked on later added background music.

Yes it was, that's exactly what it was. It was later added to be played in the background. Yet, still integral to the actual film, which proves my earlier sentiments that you are an elitist only to music you are familiar with by the usual greats, and any new music you do not recognize instantly in a film is readily assumed as trivial. This is a very close minded approach, especially when the mind must be like a parachute. Just for the fact you seem to believe nothing good has been written since the serialists of the 20th Century already says a lot about you.

This just popped into my mind...a classic film THE THIRD MAN, what would that movie be without that simple zither....BIG DIFFERENCE.....But I am sure James never heard of Anton Karras.....

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 01:30:32 PM
Yeah, nothing can happen without a clever concept and a strong script, then you move on to casting....and then how youre going to shoot the thing, then once its all shot, the editing etc....the music is usually included after the all of this, as a final touch, thats what i ment about "icing on the cake".

It is now most evident you understand little to nothing about the filmmaking process. I have never once heard of a filmmaker who creates a film and does the music last. The music is being written, scored, and prepared from the time the filmmaking process begins. It takes a composer months to complete a score, and usually longer than the duration of the film process. They work with ideas until they get some shots, they work with those shots until they get the final product. They already have the cues from the screenplay, and can work from there. The editing process is the same as the sound mixing process, and the music is added and arranged just at the same time the scenes and audio are added. Because the editing process is last does not mean it is the least important. In fact, George Lucas believes the editing is the most important and integral part of the film making process. Yes, how the film is arranged and put together is the heart of a film, and not more important than its story, but mutually important.

As for the other major flaw in your logic, a bad story is no less than a film with bad acting, horrendous music, bad writing, or bad photography. They are all interrelated , this is why you misunderstand the role of music. Yes, the concept or story is typically the foundation of the film, but that has nothing to do with the greatness of the other components. That is simply absurd. Is all music not based or inspired by some conception or idea? All great art is contingent to it's core based conception. Answer truthfully, is acting an art? How important is the actor's performance to the film? Are you moved by performances, do believe the actors have the power to express deep philosophical insight and emotion? In light of your view of opera and film, it already seems music is the only art worth mentioning for you, as the rest is just "sickly emotionalism that bogs down a lot of music". If you believe acting is an art form, is it not subjected to the written text, concept, and story? If we take story away, doesn't it fall flat? How is performance created on a story any different than music created for the story? A story is merely a foundation, the performance, photography, and music bring it to life. It is clear to me you not only have narrow view of film, but of all performing art in general.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 01:53:34 PM
what about 'the pianist', 'shine' or even 'amadeus' and many many others...where it is actually integral to the story.

James have you been napping again...see my above post.....

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 02:13:34 PM
hey rob, never saw that film, so...

sorry about that, I meant two above.....actually while I have you here, I think it would be a good idea if you get ahold of a copy of the movie The third man. Besides being a classic movie you can then hear for yourself the difference one instrument makes in a movie....

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 28, 2007, 12:42:53 PM
I haven't seen The Queen. I would suggest Children of Men and Volver for some great films of 2006 if you have not seen them, and both very strong musically. L'Enfant is also a great film which utilizes no score at all in the film, and is still very affecting. However, the fact that both you and James are unable to recall the music of Vertigo I think is rather telling in itself.

It tells me that it's been many years since I've seen Vertigo and that I likely didn't find the music an enhancement.  If you find it otherwise, that's just a case of differing preferences.  

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 02:25:18 PM
actually no, i didnt like either film to be honest....amadeus wasnt awful but i didnt think it was great, and immortal beloved was dreadful imo.

James my boy, your missing the point......

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 02:10:44 PM
Yeah but a film goer doesnt have to understand how movies are made to enjoy them, just like experiencing any art, you dont have to know how its done do you, it is truly immaterial and that is where your major flaw is. For me, the concept and story ARE the crux of the whole thing, if you dont have that, nothing on earth will save it. You can have the biggest budget in the world. You can cast the most famous actors to play the parts, have the best cameras, the greatest editing team, a fancy composer...but if that script and story is jut crap all of that stuff wont mean a damn thing. Youre bringing to life, a waste of time. And most movies are this. No surprise.

Did you even read my post? I didn't say you have to understand how they are made to enjoy them, but don't presume to know the process if you really don't, and then try to defend it with some sort of metaphysical statement on immaterial art. The point is that you were trying to discredit film music for being secondary to story, even though all performing art, whether it be dance, music, or dramatic performance is dependent upon theme, concept, or story. It's irrational reasoning to assume story based art is exclusive to film music.

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 02:37:00 PM
well you better explain yourself then

were you not implying that if you knew the composer it would make a difference to how you perceived the soundtrack? ??? ??? ::) ::)

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 02:58:13 PM
um no. wake up sleepy head...

"In Vertigo, I vividly remember the use of Mozart, and the use of Poulenc in Hitchcocks The Rope, and the use of Bartok and Ligeti works in some of Kubricks efforts"  That is a direct quote from you. You have a short memory. Maybe abit over your head.....What you smokin boy??

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 03:18:32 PM
you must be drunk, but then you like to watch cars go around in circles for hours, so im not surprised...

i explained that with this replie from earlier...

"Yes i do remember those Hitchcock instances, the use of music was integral to the actual character dialog, script and scene, it wasnt some tacked on later added background music. The Kubrick i remember, because I am a huge admirer of Bartok & Ligeti, their music means so much to me...so it just stands out instantly."

and even further explained with...

"in 'Rope' one of the main characters is performing the Poulenc on the piano, its apart of the scene, and the characters are surrounding the piano discussing this etc, it apart of the actual story...same applies to the use of Mozart in the Vertigo scene...where it is on the record player being spun, to "clear the cobwebs out" as one character states while Stewart is in therapy, sitting there in catatonia...this isnt tacked on, it integral to actual story, scene & dialog."

Go back a page and have a look...

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1096.100.html

what I seem to think your implying is that when its a composer your familar with you seem to remember the music.as well as the movie....normally if you do not know the composer you feel the music in the movie is insignificant......BTW I guess you found out I like to watch cars go around because I mentioned the Indy 500 yesterday. Its good to know your memory is good for that........just when I thought I was out, you keep dragging me back in......

Finished watching The Queen; very disappointing film that was too low-key for my tastes.  As for the music, it had no impact on me one way or another.  I asked my wife what she thought of the music  "nothing much".

So, what we have here is a poor movie with ho-hum music.  That's what I call "art".

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 03:57:30 PMI liked both the Mission and Vertigo, i barely recall the music though off hand....]

Quote
....i just was saying in vertigo, it had a scene that was about mozart's music, which was being played on the record player in the scene, as therapy for one of the characters...so the mozart wasnt disconnected and merely filling up space in the background, it was very much apart of the actual scene & characters dialog.

If you don't even realize the quality of Herrmann's masterful score to Vertigo, then you must be completely and utterly daft. Your complete lack of knowledge about filmmaking and the function of music in films renders all your comments pointless and indeed worthless.

I suggest you yourself get some of the textbooks on film music (there are many) and some key scores and the films on DVD and then at least TRY to learn something about the process and the concept behind film music before you ever dare to open your mouth about its value in public.

These are some good ones:

http://www.amazon.com/Film-Music-Neglected-Critical-Study/dp/039330874X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422581&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Film-Music-George-Burt/dp/1555532705/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422581&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Score-Composers-Writing-Cinema/dp/0380804824/ref=sr_1_4/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422581&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/Reel-Music-Exploring-Years-Film/dp/0393925749/ref=sr_1_7/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422581&sr=1-7

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Scoring-Richard-Davis/dp/0634006363/ref=sr_1_15/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422581&sr=1-15

http://www.amazon.com/American-Film-Music-Composers-Techniques/dp/0786407530/ref=sr_1_2/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422799&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Overtones-Undertones-Reading-Film-Music/dp/0520085442/ref=sr_1_1/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422837&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Track-Guide-Contemporary-Scoring-Second/dp/0415941369/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422864&sr=1-1

And about Bernard Herrmann:

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Fires-Center-Bernard-Herrmann/dp/0520229398/ref=sr_1_1/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422888&sr=1-1

Thomas

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 01:13:41 PM
Yes i do remember those Hitchcock instances, the use of music was integral to the actual character dialog, script and scene, it wasnt some tacked on later added background music. The Kubrick i remember, because I am a huge admirer of Bartok & Ligeti, their music means so much to me...so it just stands out instantly.

Your lack of comprehension is quite amazing in itself. I gather even the usual "pizza crowd" at the mulitplexes has a more profound understanding of music in movies than you will ever have. Stravinsky saying that music expresses nothing no doubt agrees with you: Your words do not express anything either. In fact, I would be surprised if you lead a life that in itself has any expression, let alone meaing.

The integral function of music in films needs not be explained nor "proven". 100+ years of films with music in them provide ample proof. The genre's greatest praciticioners have always maintained that good film music must be good music first. And those who have managed to live up to this aim - and there are quite a few, many of them mentioned above - have produced music that became an inseperable part of the film it was written for and can stand up as concert music at the same time. For which, again, no further proof is needed. Not for people who have had an education.

Thomas

Quote from: Don on May 28, 2007, 04:44:42 PM
Finished watching The Queen; very disappointing film that was too low-key for my tastes.  As for the music, it had no impact on me one way or another.  I asked my wife what she thought of the music  "nothing much".

So, what we have here is a poor movie with ho-hum music.  That's what I call "art".

Don, I agree on both counts. I was also disappointed with Alexandre Desplat's music for The Queen, not least because he's really quite talented. He won the Golden Globe this year for his sensitive chamber music type score The Painted Veil and it's lovely.

But my two favorite scores of his are Birth and Girl With a Pearl Earring. Birth is a minimalist, mysterious, sophisticated effort, and Girl With a Pearl Earring is also written for chamber forces, featuring truly beautiful themes and fine orchestration.

Quote from: sound67 on May 28, 2007, 10:45:40 PM

And about Bernard Herrmann:

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Fires-Center-Bernard-Herrmann/dp/0520229398/ref=sr_1_1/102-7649884-1528104?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180422888&sr=1-1

Thomas

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DTGH5MJHL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg)

I always use to see this for sale in the back of FSM Magazine, but it was in hardcover and a bit pricey for me to take a chance on.  Now that it is in paperback I may give it a whirl.....thanks for pointing this one out Thomas.

It's definitely worth a read. The best musician's biography I have read yet.

Thomas

Quote from: James on May 28, 2007, 02:10:44 PM
Yeah but a film goer doesnt have to understand how movies are made to enjoy them, just like experiencing any art, you dont have to know how its done do you, it is truly immaterial and that is where your major flaw is. For me, the concept and story ARE the crux of the whole thing, if you dont have that, nothing on earth will save it. You can have the biggest budget in the world. You can cast the most famous actors to play the parts, have the best cameras, the greatest editing team, a fancy composer...but if that script and story is jut crap all of that stuff wont mean a damn thing. Youre bringing to life, a waste of time. And most movies are this. No surprise.

Yes, one can enjoy art without understanding it, but how can you posit and compare the supposed greatness and depth of various kinds of music, as you've been doing? Does not such valuation hinge on an understanding of the things being discussed?

I understand that you place story first in how you appreciate film, but in doing so, you're reducing a complex and intricate art form to a book with moving illustrations or a recording of a play. But film is a comprehensive medium that is built from numerous component parts. Music is one of the key ways in which the story is told, one of the ways in which the filmmakers shape the audience's experiences. It creates expectations, elicits emotions, identifies or announces (extra-musical) themes, comments on the visuals or dialogue, and so forth and so on. Mute the next few films you watch to see and hear the difference.

A film does not stand or fall on story alone, by any stretch. You make it sound like editing, for instance, is some secondary matter, when in fact it's pivotal to creating the unique identity of a film. How a film is edited makes a world of difference in how the vast amount of raw material is distilled into a final audio-visual product. Action scenes, for instance, are largely the creation of the editing process. The pacing and focus of dramatic, dialogue-heavy scenes can shift dramatically depending on how they're cut.

Quote
i usually concentrate on the sonics too...the dialog or the sounds that are integral to the flick. I often just block out the music as its floating out and about in the background, sometimes you'll hear a catchy tune or perhaps a theme that sticks or what have you, but its not critical to following whats going on...

On the contrary, music is a critical part of what's going on--if you're appreciating the film as a film. The images, their ordering and integration and pacing, the sound and dialogue, and the music combine to create the entire audio-visual, intellectual-emotional totality of each moment. If you're just paying attention to and valuing the story, you're missing much of what's happening. That's like judging an opera exclusively on a recording, and one in which you don't understand the words, no less. It needs to be both seen and heard, and the text and story need to be understood in their context, to appreciate and judge it as opera.

Don't waste your time on "James", he just declared his total ignorance not just of music in films, but of music altogether. He admits to not understanding the process, nor the medium, nor does he display any analytical pov on music in general.

Save your breath for people who deserve your attention, and let's get on with the subject ...

Thomas

And in that spirit ...

Bernard Herrmann made many interesting remarks about the nature of film music and its importance for the film, as well as its limitations. In a lecture for the British Film Institute in 1972, Herrmann said:

QuoteIn spite of all new fashion and aesthetic theories, film is one medium that needs other arts, because it's a cooperative, mosaic enterprise, and the use of music has always been necessary even from silent days to the present day. People always ask me this question, "Why does a film need music?" Well, I'd like to say this: I've never met a producer who said to me, "I've just finished a film, and I don't need you!" They say, "You must come and see what you can do to help us!" ... Music is a sort of cement, or veneer, that finalizes the art of making a film .... I think that Jean Coc­teau said once that in films, one is never fully aware whether it's the mu­sic that's propelling the film or the film propelling the music.
And I would like to say that many times directors who receive great credit and applause for the marvelgus scenes at the crucial time of recogni­tion seem to forget the contribution that the composer has made to the film. I wish it were possible historically to see some films the way they were given to the composer, and if they were given to the world that way, whether they would be regarded with the same esteem ....
Today there is no mention of film music made by film critics in En­gland or New York. It's completely ignored .... Nobody seems to men­tion whether it was good, tasteless, sensitive, evocative; either way, they've regarded the film medium as a free-for-all to have the most, the greatest vulgarity that the human race has ever achieved, perpetrated on the screen, with the point of view that it's music that'll make money, and nobody'll notice it anyhow! ...
I must make it very clear that all remarks made by me only refer to my own attitude. I have colleagues who would dispute everything I say, who would say film is a way to make a buck-never mind what the film is about .... Most of the film directors I've had the good luck and good fortune to work with have regarded music as something that had to be created with the film-but I have worked for people who regard music as just a sort of you-take-it-to-Harrods-gift-wrapping-department. In this case there is no latitude given to you, and the picture's not elastic, it's set ....
The art of writing a film score is fast becoming equivalent to having been a medieval enameler-you know, making beautiful jewelry. It's not needed anymore. Today they just hope for a pop song-nothing to do with the film, the actors, just get us a pop song, that's all! ... But I think that film music is an art, and that films need music-and music needs films. I think that composers who think it beneath them-I feel sorry for them, because they haven't had the chance. A composer with an attitude that radio or TV or film music is beneath him is doomed to obliv­ion. Real composers welcome any opportunity to write music.

The passage clearly reflects the composer's frustration over the then-fashionable "song scores" which had begun to replace standard instrumental scores in the mid-1960s.

His remark "I think that composers who think it beneath them-I feel sorry for them, because they haven't had the chance" can be applied to, surprise-surprise, Igor Stravinsky, the composer who wrote that music cannot express anything. In the 1940s Stravinsky badly wanted to compose music for films, but he failed so completely the first time he tried (the experience on "Commandos Strike at Dawn" is detailed in Miklós Rózsa's autobiography "A Double Life") he never tried again. He understood the movie-making process about as "well" as our dear own "James" does ...  $:)

In a letter to the London Times Herrmann also pointed out:

QuoteThe whole point I have been trying to make is that screen music is neither industrialized nor insignificant. Indeed the films and radio offer the only real creative and financial opportunities a composer has. He can write a film score for any musical combination and hear it immediately performed. Moreover the film gives him the largest audience in the world - an audience whose interest and appreciation should not be underestimated. A good film score receives thousands of "fan letters" from intelligent music lovers everywhere.

The passage I highlighted offers an argument that many film and television composers mentioned when asked about the "why" of working in films in interviews we conducted with them over the years for a film music journal. And neither denied the financial advantages either. Of course, to acknowledge the quality of the product it takes, as pointed out by Herrmann, intelligent music lovers.

Thomas

I'm not sure if this has already come up, but what of movie musicals? There you have a long-lived, (once) popular genre where no one can dispute the vital import--even centrality--of music.

Interesting quotes from Herrmann, though I can't find an inherent problem in song-scores, be they partial or full, original or taken from existing material, as long as the music advances the overall artistic aims of the film. Look at "Moon River" in Breakfast at Tiffany's, for a famous example. There you have a an extremely tuneful song that helps comment on/establish character and theme. Or look at how deftly Baz Luhrmann mines contemporary pop music (and a bit of Wagner) in his version of Romeo & Juliet--that's some of the smartest, most effective selection of pop songs to create specific atmospheres in a film that I can remember.

Herrmann would not have agreed with Luhrman's use of songs, I'm sure, but "Moon River", in that it is actually a part of the music on-screen, as well as thematically integrated with the rest of the score, would not have bothered him.

In the wake of Simon & Garfunkel's "The Graduate" (a song score that worked), many producers started to place almost random songs in the background of their movies - with no dramatic, nor thematic connection to the film. It is Herrmann's thesis that a song score cannot provide adequate emotional and dramatic support for a motion picture - which I'm certain is true for about 90% of all motion pictures.

Thomas

Quote from: sound67 on May 30, 2007, 03:54:09 AM
Herrmann would not have agreed with Luhrman's use of songs, I'm sure, but "Moon River", in that it is actually a part of the music on-screen, as well as thematically integrated with the rest of the score, would not have bothered him.

In the wake of Simon & Garfunkel's "The Graduate" (a song score that worked), many producers started to place almost random songs in the background of their movies - with no dramatic, nor thematic connection to the film. It is Herrmann's thesis that a song score cannot pürovide adequate emotional and dramatic support for a motion picture - which I'm certain is true for about 90% of all motion pictures.

Thomas

Or worse yet, are those "songs" that are written for the end-titles as they scroll by.  My wife and I refer to them as "slow-jams".  ;D  I sit and wait for them to be over so that I will hopefully hear the actually "score" again to cap the film.

But I must admit, I love those cheesy "songs" that they used at the beginning of the Connery Bond films......."Frommmmm Ruuuuuuuuusia with loooooooooove....." er, um, sorry about that.

The Bond songs are actually not bad - which is more than one can say for Barry's background scores.

The safest bet for beginners who want to listen to film music independently of the films and done by composers who primarily worked in that genre are the "classical Hollywood scores" by Korngold, Rózsa, Waxman, Friedhofer, Elmer Bernstein, etc. Miklós Rózsa in particular, since he preferred to underline the emotional or psychological center of a scene rather than the mimic the physical action and who worked along classic leitmotiv lines, provided music than holds up eminently well on disc.

Apart from BEN-HUR and the other epic scores already mentioned, LUST FOR LIFE, PLYMOUTH ADVENTURE, IVANHOE, KNIGHTS OF THE ROUND TABLE, THE LOST WEEKEND, and in more modern, Bartók-ian garb, his thriller scores for BRUTE FORCE, THE NAKED CITY, THE KILLERS & DOUBLE INDEMNITY all deliver the goods. Those more attuned to Americana will find pleasures in Copland's film scores, or Hugo Friedhofer's THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES.

Bernard Herrmann understood more about the connection of music and films than anybody else, and he was an ingenious orchestrator. But because he understood the function of music in a dramatic context so well, much of his music is functional. Some scores, usually the more emphatic or luxuriantly colored work well: VERTIGO may well be the prime example, but BENEATH THE TWELVE MILE REEF, WHITE-WITCH DOCTOR, CITIZEN KANE, THE SNOWS OF KILIMANJARO, NORTH BY NORTHWEST, THE SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD, THE THREE WORLDS OF GULLIVER or THE GHOST AND MRS MUIR are all great listening experiences without the films they were composed for.

Of the next generation, no one wrote more brilliant film scores than Jerry Goldsmith. PLANET OF THE APES e.g. is a fantastic, truly modern orchestral score, and there are many other examples.

Thomas

Bravo, Thomas (sound67). I've been debating whether or not to even get involved in this debate (argument?) and you've summed up my comments quite nicely with your last post. Rozsa, Herrmann, Bernstein and Goldsmith were exceptionally gifted composers that had a real knack for not only enhancing on-screen action, but creating full-blown sound worlds that complemented and often "filled out" the narrative space of the film. I would add John Williams, Ennio Morricone, Lalo Schifrin, and Jerry Fielding to your list.

With film music, I've always believed that orchestral "color" and the "sound" of, well, sound are two of the most important characteristics of the medium. These qualities convey the sound world of a film, give it its uniqueness. And the three aforementioned composers were excellent in providing colorful, orchestral landscapes to their film projects.

With film music, unlike classical music, the "art" is in the placement of music, its relationship to the images, and its ability to move a scene along, perhaps lifting it up dramatically, emotionally, comically. Take Goldsmith, for instance. Patton is a thirty-minute score, but remains one of the composer's most original, dramatic, and memorable. On the opposite end, Williams' score to Close Encounters blankets nearly the entire film, but breathes along with it, infusing it with that extra bounce needed to keep the brisk pace of the narrative. While some may prefer short scores to long ones, or music-only moments, or no music at all, it is very difficult (damn near impossible) to consider film music classical music.

Why would we want to, anyways? I've been a film score collector for nearly fifteen years and rarely confuse/combine it with my penchant for collecting classical albums. They're two different beasts. With film music, the joy is in the small moments: the one-minute ostinato, the fleeting melody that sums up the talents of a composer and the emotions of a particular film.

Glad you jumped on board Mametesque.  Any further insights you have to offer are quite welcome.

Thomas,
If I had to choose one film composer over all the others for a project it would have been Jerry Goldsmith (with Elmer Bernstein right on his heels).  I believe this somewhat summarizes his abilities (from the web):

Goldsmith's abilities at being a musical chameleon served him well throughout his career and just as the decades before brought dramatic changes in style the 80's also saw further development and transformations.

and the word "chameleon" is used again:

By any measure, the loss of Jerry Goldsmith is incalculable. He influenced every composer who worked in Hollywood from 1960 on. Henry Mancini once said, "He has instilled two things in his colleagues in this town. One is, he keeps us honest, and the other one is, he scares the hell out of us." Last week, John Williams told Entertainment Weekly that he admired Goldsmith's "freshness" and "chameleon adaptability."

And I agree, the Planet of the Apes work is absolutely incredible the Main Title and The Hunt are two of my favorite cues ever.  A ram's horn has never been used with more effectiveness.  Did you enjoy his Alien work as well?

You probably don't realise the impact music has on a film until you're able to see the film without the music. A lot of what it does is subconscious, it gives you the emotional context of what you are seeing which majorly changes how you perceive an actors performance often without you being aware it is. Spielberg says his movies are static and dead without John Williams. If you don't remember the music it still affected you, and composers tend to aim for that, they want to change your perception of the film firstly and become a companion and commentary to the film if able.
Here's a youtube clip from a Herrmann documentary that effectively demonstrates this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oT16InmUlI0
Forward on to about 6:00, and you'll see a comparison of a scene from Torn Curtain without music and then with Herrmann's music.
Now when we're talking about background music. We're missing something really vital about the genre, something rather unique about it. Film music unlike 'pure music' is given context. There are characters to score, plot themes to deal with. An intelligent composer can do great unique things here and they are the ones who realise the true unique potential of the genre.
What film music does best is psychology. The music by benefit of the film has a strong and deep connection into characters soul. It's difficult to describe music with words, but this clip from vertigo opening titles should help, the music perfectly shows the spinning internal fear that vertigo is, this is psychological music. Spinning minimalist like music with bizarre chords. But it goes deeper than that even, note the music has an element of passion and yearning in it, and the main character throughout the film was driven by a mix of fear and passion. Herrmann has ingeniously captured the psychological element of the whole film.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pz46qS38OgM
Now this is just a simple demostration. When you bring psychological music to a complicated screenplay and complex characters, that's when you get music that can be incredibly insightful. If you take careful note of the music when watching a film, and the composer is extremely talented who understands what psychological music is, you get to be an empath when watching the film. ;) I really think that film music is the most natural use of music there is, because the music is able to express more in this genre than any other.

Quote from: James on May 27, 2007, 08:28:06 AM
well, i disagree with a lot of what was said...most of it is highly derivative etc., never truly profoundly moving i find and i dont take it all that seriously, despite all this disagreement though & moving on... it can be fun

Here I would disagree completely and suggest that maybe you have not investigated the genre to any depth, to find the golden ingenious stuff amongst all the poor quality fluff that's out there.
Film Music has an extremely large amount of profoundly moving music. It goes to what I said above, it's very human music because it deals with psychology.
Here try listening to this, this is from the mission, Ennio Morricone is scoring the psychological connection to god and the beautiful natural scenery that the missionaries have. There is a reason Ennio Morricone won the lifetime achievement award last year. ;)
http://60.242.91.75/The%20Mission:%20The%20Falls.mp3

Prokofiev and Mahler. These are 2 composers who works I think match the best of film music.
I must admit I primarily listen to film music, and listen to so called art music because of it's similarity to it. ;)
I gave a sample track of Morricone's music, I don't think music gets more profound than that.
But I have a few more clips to show you. (hopefully lead you to getting the full score ;) )
http://60.242.91.75/wuthering%20heights.m4a
Alfred Newman, A classic romance theme Wuthering Heights.
http://60.242.91.75/Julius:End%20Title.m4a
Alex North from The Agony and the Ecstacy. The pope having lead the papal states to war has lost and knows he will shortly be executed, but more importantly his dream of making the church powerful again has failed, this cue scores sadness and despair.
http://60.242.91.75/The%20Untouchables%20(End%20Title).mp3
Ennio Morricone, The Untouchables. The incredible thrill of victory over the incredibly evil Capone.

Film music is about very human emotions and conditions. It tells you what it is like to experience things you don't get to. It's often a portal into other peoples lives. I think I can classify a lot of it as profound and life changing.

Quote from: James on June 03, 2007, 08:59:11 AM


As I pointed out earlier, John Carpenter's Halloween is a prime example of that, and thats why its considered one of the most successful in the genre of film music. But despite this does it compare with transcendant levels found in Bach? Does Berrmann's Psycho or Vertigo compare with Bartok's String Quartets or Concerto for Orchestra? Does any film score compare to those levels of profundity ? I think not.


thats a big claim.

one that i have yet to hear...and ive heard most of the highly regarded ones! fun sure, entertaining yes, but truly profound & life changing? and no one is denying that certain scores are milestones within film music, but very few are, a lot of them rip of copland or ravel or etc, formalic....and film music at its most successful compared with art music's greatest heights? nah, i still stand what i said earlier, it never comes close...people here can point me to a bunch of books but it still wont change my opinion of that. I have to hear it!

and there are many excellent & highly entertaining films that dont even use orchestras or acoustical instruments at all.....they simply use a lot of popular music, or next to no music at all etc. And in many films the background music is largely mixed lower than the more important sonics, like dialog, sound etc...throughout the duration of the film....

James, you know nothing, and you are nothing. Your (by your own claim) uninformed "opinion" accounts for nothing.

And, also, by your own - rather cretinous - admission, you don't take films "too seriously" and thus didn't study it. Your "opinion" is worthless since it is "founded", if that indeed is the word, on lack of knowledge and understanding.

Again, let's not get sidetracked by this utter twit.

Thomas

Quote from: James on June 03, 2007, 01:57:35 PM
oh stop it, youre hilarious....ive heard many of the major film scores, in fact, i do own many of them (or have at some point), i just dont hear the same level of profundity in film music that many of the big claims in this thread purport. sorry. in otherwords, to put it bluntly, its not in the same league, at all.

Because you don't hear it--and apparently refuse to study film music carefully in its proper context--doesn't mean the profundity isn't there.

Quote from: James on June 04, 2007, 09:08:34 AM
hahahaha...puh-lease...all you have to do is simply listen to the music that's all, no one has to "study" anything here, get real....name me one film composer who's music even begins to approach the profundity of a Bela Bartok, Anton Webern or Igor Stravinsky. Go ahead name me one, no one in their right mind would make such a claim, not even those film composers!

If you refuse to think about or study film and film music, and instead--judging by the implications of your posts--just approach it half-awake as disposable entertainment, of course you won't get what everyone is talking about here, just as you can't fully appreciate or adequately judge Bartok, Webern, or Stravinsky without digging into their works and understanding music theory and history.

I have a large number of movie soundtracks on my shelves.  Well, I love movies, or I did.  And I often liked the music in them. I think at one time I wanted to think of them as sort of classical.  Probably because at that time many of them were composed by Herrmann or Rozsa or other composers with some classical background. 

But overall, I would not say they (soundtracks) were more classical than simply the use of the orchestra and some various compositional techniques.  At one time, soundtrack albums were produced by either the composer themself or someone with a music background.  Many of these albums combined shorter tracks, added endings and made the listening experience a little closer to listening to classical music.  Today, we just get albums that are the exact same thing we hear in the theater or on the DVD.  What works with the film, works with the film, but it doesn't usually make a great listening experience that way (unless you are simply listening to it to re-live the flm). 

So I would mostly offer that today, movie soundtracks are not 'classical' to me and are more of a media branding convention (if anything).

Quote from: anasazi on June 04, 2007, 10:53:23 PMToday, we just get albums that are the exact same thing we hear in the theater or on the DVD.  What works with the film, works with the film, but it doesn't usually make a great listening experience that way (unless you are simply listening to it to re-live the flm). 

This has less to do with the nature of the releases but with the very inferior talent of many of today's most popular film "composers": men like Hans Zimmer or Danny Elfman never studied composition proper (they enter their "sketches" as keyboard samples e.g.) and the resulting scores, while usually arranged and orchestrated by the real pros, are often insipid and simplistic. In particular, the influence of Hans Zimmer and his "Media Ventures" team of composers is lamentable. Even e.g. Howard Shore's work on the Lord of the Rings trilogy, despite being moulded along classical lines, is unsubtle and structurally weak when compared to the work of the classic film composers or more recent masters like Goldsmith and Williams.

There are exceptions, of course: John Corigliano, his former pupil Elliot Goldenthal, Michael Giacchino and others are able to provide music that can stand comparison with their older colleagues.

Thomas

Quote from: anasazi on June 04, 2007, 10:53:23 PM
But overall, I would not say they (soundtracks) were more classical than simply the use of the orchestra and some various compositional techniques.  At one time, soundtrack albums were produced by either the composer themself or someone with a music background.  Many of these albums combined shorter tracks, added endings and made the listening experience a little closer to listening to classical music.  Today, we just get albums that are the exact same thing we hear in the theater or on the DVD.  What works with the film, works with the film, but it doesn't usually make a great listening experience that way (unless you are simply listening to it to re-live the flm). 

Note, that that's actually what film music fans generally demand. If you really love a composer, you tend to want to hear every note they wrote for that particular film. There's always the skip button too. ;) Note I don't think film music fans listen to film music because it has the same.... sort of listening experience to symphonies. They know and expect it's structure. The development structure of film music is not so much geared towards a listening experience, but rather variations on themes and orchestration to echo in music what's happening to characters and ideas of the film, and there can be a lot of artful intelligence in the way a composer does this, it's just a very non-linear development structure which people most familiar with classical music might have trouble with.
What do I mean by non-linear development structure? Well lets say you start a film with an old man, and go to a flashback to tell his life story. You may start with a fully developed theme, and then jump to a completely undeveloped version of it with the flashback.... This is what film music development is supposed to be, purposeful but not for a listening experience so much, that doesn't mean it's not enjoyable to listen to, it just means you should not expect it to develop in a way a symphony would.

Quote from: Mark on May 25, 2007, 02:37:30 PM
I consider movie soundtracks to be 'classical' wherever they use instruments which I typically associate with Western Art Music. So I file my 'Titanic', 'Finding Neverland' and 'The Piano' soundtracks along with my other classical discs.


<awaits derision for confessing to owning the first of the above-mentioned soundtrack CDs>

Don't worry, I have just been listening to Trevor Jones's score for "The Dark Crystal"

Quote from: James on June 04, 2007, 09:08:34 AM
name me one film composer who's music even begins to approach the profundity of a Bela Bartok, Anton Webern or Igor Stravinsky. Go ahead name me one, no one in their right mind would make such a claim, not even those film composers!

All three of those composers are great composers, undoubtedly. But are you willing to suggest that every work of theirs is better than every piece of film music? A pretty strange and maybe silly question but one that I think may suit your unconditional preferral of the classical composer over the film composer.

I can identify greater musical depth and greater quality of contruction in some scores (or individual tracks) from Elfman, Goldsmith, Rota and Morricone that is is not available to see or hear in some works by many of the classical composers that I know and love. That is a fact that I have absolutely no qualms in admitting. I think your have a certain musical arrogance and snobbery that won't allow you to admit that such a thing is possible.

Quote from: James on June 03, 2007, 08:59:11 AM


As I pointed out earlier, John Carpenter's Halloween is a prime example of that, and thats why its considered one of the most successful in the genre of film music. But despite this does it compare with transcendant levels found in Bach? Does Berrmann's Psycho or Vertigo compare with Bartok's String Quartets or Concerto for Orchestra? Does any film score compare to those levels of profundity ? I think not.

Yes, easily. Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra does not aspire to be much of a profound experience. It quotes and attempts to parody bits of Shotakovich and does some other minor things with light melodies and timbre. I consider it more of a technical exercise than a great work of artistic expression. It could easily be argued it is one of his less ambitions efforts due to its accessible themes and melodies, which departs from the more philosophical avant-garde modernist style he was typical to. Nevertheless, your ears do the talking and says it's great, despite its context or true technical merits. Therefore, you really have no intellectual argument here on the quality of film music since you openly reject studying it or learning the circumstances in which many of the great pieces are constructed, and thus your opinion is reduced to mere subjective preference. This is perfectly fine, however, but it is a mistake to presume film music simply cannot compare on some objective standards of profundity, since the only thing that constitutes profundity to you is if it is pretty for the ears.

Quote from: James on June 03, 2007, 08:59:11 AMthats a big claim.

It is an accurate claim. The audacity of it is, of course, relative to the interpreter.

Quote from: James on June 03, 2007, 08:59:11 AMone that i have yet to hear...and ive heard most of the highly regarded ones! fun sure, entertaining yes, but truly profound & life changing? and no one is denying that certain scores are milestones within film music, but very few are, a lot of them rip of copland or ravel or etc, formalic....and film music at its most successful compared with art music's greatest heights? nah, i still stand what i said earlier, it never comes close...people here can point me to a bunch of books but it still wont change my opinion of that. I have to hear it!

Nino Rota's score for La Strada I consider immensely profound, and both the film and its respective score have had a great philosophical impact on my life. Another example is the score for Wong Kar Wai's In The Mood for Love and Richard Einhorn's transcendental score for Carl Theodor Dreyer's 1928 masterpiece The Passion of Joan of Arc (which I recommend to any music lover). Once again, this is coming from someone who appreciates program music of tone poems, operas, musicals, and of course film. You have already established you have no respect for any of these mediums as a great form of musical artistic expression. This alone says enough about your views. You also seem to adopt the 71 dB school of logic that presupposes all music cannot be reevaluated, further appreciated and understood as a great piece of art through education (yet likely are open to the change of musical value on personal experience and maturity, which essentially is the same rationale, but one independent of embracing the intellectual academia). Of course, in the academic realm for the past 5 centuries theorists and art critics would completely dismiss those who base artistic appraisal on gut reaction alone, abandoning the possibilities of learning the complexities, nuances, context, and meaning of a particular work. Nevertheless, it is not your shallow views on art that I wish to question here, but merely point out that, yes, this music is profound for many, even if is not for you and your limited 18th Century standards.

Quote from: James on June 03, 2007, 08:59:11 AMand there are many excellent & highly entertaining films that dont even use orchestras or acoustical instruments at all.....they simply use a lot of popular music, or next to no music at all etc. And in many films the background music is largely mixed lower than the more important sonics, like dialog, sound etc...throughout the duration of the film....

This is trivial logic. Not every film is piece of art. Just like there are many theater programs which do not utilize an original or great score. Even in absolute music you have pieces written to play in the background at weddings or for whatever less ambitious reasons. It is absurd to reduce the entirety of film music and its accolades due to what is merely lack of ambition for artistic greatness in a score by a particular filmmaker. You cannot expect a great film score in a movie from a director who does not wish to utilize film music as anything more than narrative device -- only great artists will produce great art.

....I have the following cds that I would like to pass on.  I am downsizing my soundtrack collection and rather give 'em to a good home than resell.  They are all used, and I believe I bought all of them used.  Fairly good shape.  I believe the Braveheart my have a gliche at the end, but it did not bother me as I never listened to it anyway.  Cannot exactly recall.  Think of this as a very poor B-Movie equivalent to Harry's Refusal Bin. ;D  I will be happy to cover shipping as well.  I just need a PM with an address:

Braveheart: James Horner

Seabiscuit: Randy Newman

Shine: David Hirschfield

The Matrix: Don Davis

American Beauty: Thomas Newman

Babe: Nigel Westlake

The X-Men: Michael "K-Men"

Edward Scissorhands: Danny Elfman

There may be more down the road.

Quote from: Bogey on April 15, 2008, 06:17:21 AM
....I have the following cds that I would like to pass on.  I am downsizing my soundtrack collection and rather give 'em to a good home than resell.  They are all used, and I believe I bought all of them used.  Fairly good shape.  I believe the Braveheart my have a gliche at the end, but it did not bother me as I never listened to it anyway.  Cannot exactly recall.  Think of this as a very poor B-Movie equivalent to Harry's Refusal Bin. ;D  I will be happy to cover shipping as well.  I just need a PM with an address:

Braveheart: James Horner

Seabiscuit: Randy Newman

Shine: David Hirschfield

The Matrix: Don Davis

American Beauty: Thomas Newman

Babe: Nigel Westlake

The X-Men: Michael "K-Men"

Edward Scissorhands: Danny Elfman

There may be more down the road.

If you ever think of giving away or even selling the soundtrack to the first Conan movie, let me know. It's supposed to be awesome.

Quote from: MN Dave on April 15, 2008, 06:22:55 AM
If you ever think of giving away or even selling the soundtrack to the first Conan movie, let me know. It's supposed to be awesome.

:D

Quote from: Bogey on April 15, 2008, 06:24:59 AM
:D

Do you have it? People rave about it. I just added it to my CD Universe wish list.

Quote from: MN Dave on April 15, 2008, 06:27:04 AM
Do you have it? People rave about it. I just added it to my CD Universe wish list.

No.  I always wanted the rare version with extra tracks so never picked it up hoping that it would be eventually be re-released by someone like Varese Sarabande through their soundtrack club or possibly Film Score Monthly.  However, I have lost a lot of interest in listening to many soundtracks on their own and stopped looking many moons ago.  If I see one I will snag it for you.

Quote from: Bogey on April 15, 2008, 06:33:09 AM
No.  I always wanted the rare version with extra tracks so never picked it up hoping that it would be eventually be re-released by someone like Varese Sarabande through their soundtrack club or possibly Film Score Monthly.  However, I have lost a lot of interest in listening to many soundtracks on their own and stopped looking many moons ago.  If I see one I will snag it for you.

Thank you very much but don't bother. I'll pick it up eventually.