i am very interested in hearing his str. qrts., understanding that he and Schmidt and Hartmann and Strauss represent the final flowering of the traditional german romantic tradition, which of course was overshadowed by the more forward looking composers that we're all familiar with. i'm expecting him to be expertly crafted, and i've heard great things about the Violin cto.
but he has a str. qrt in c minor and c# minor, and i'm curious about those keys between '29-'49. anyone have these?
You need to spend less time worrying about Pfitzner and more time getting your "Caps Lock" key unstuck.
I AM getting a bad reputation, aren't I?
It's just as hard to quit smoking as it is to start flossing!
but, like Schumann, I have inserted devices of my own invention between my fingers so that my pinky automatically hits the shift key.
I suppose communication DOES gain from adhering to the Little, Brown Handbook!- you'll see, I'll get better.
Yes, I CAN feel all the disapproving looks. Forgive me.
Quote from: nut-job on March 12, 2009, 07:31:59 AM
You need to spend less time worrying about Pfitzner and more time getting your "Caps Lock" key unstuck.
I think the Caps were spent when the subject line was safely finished.
Pfitzner is a might-have-been, "could 'a' been a contenduh" but is best known for the opera Palestrina, which is mid-level Richard Straussian without the gift for motifs and melodies.
The cantata Von Deutscher Seele desperately wants to be the Gurrelieder of the Weimar Republic, and it attains the same level of success as the Weimar! 0:)
Pfitzner is a German Glazunov in essence: some things will be attractive enough to warrant your attention, but you will sense that something deeper is missing.
Quote from: Cato on March 12, 2009, 12:30:18 PM
Pfitzner[/b is a might-have-been, "could 'a' been a contenduh" but is best known for the opera Palestrina, which is mid-level Richard Straussian without the gift for motifs and melodies.
The cantata Von Deutscher Seele desperately wants to be the Gurrelieder of the Weimar Republic, and it attains the same level of success as the Weimar! 0:)
Pfitzner is a German Glazunov in essence: some things will be attractive enough to warrant your attention, but you will sense that something deeper is missing.
Now Cato is boldfacing everything! :o :'(
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 12, 2009, 12:31:19 PM
Now Cato is boldfacing everything! :o :'(
Ack! I just fixed it! 0:) 0:)
(Not meant as a commentary on the "Caps Lock" problem mentioned above!)
i was just considering late Glazunov today. wish i could be pointed to ONE chamber work.
Pfitzner as Glazunov sounds like a warning, but i get it. mid afternoon music.
there just aren't to many "old fshioned" german qrts. @ '38-49, and i was just wondering if pzitner's "nostalgia" for times irredeemably lost might, if not even touch myaskovsky, might have just a little of that good old muffled angst.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 12, 2009, 09:14:02 PM
i was just considering late Glazunov today. wish i could be pointed to ONE chamber work.
Pfitzner as Glazunov sounds like a warning, but i get it. mid afternoon music.
there just aren't to many "old fshioned" german qrts. @ '38-49, and i was just wondering if pzitner's "nostalgia" for times irredeemably lost might, if not even touch myaskovsky, might have just a little of that good old muffled angst.
I think a member here (Brian) was very keen on one Glazunov chamber work on (if I recall correctly - it was certainly on Naxos) the following disc - and found it far better than the rest of his output. There could be potential there...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gkmRZIvWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Glazunov-String-Quintet-Five-Novelettes/dp/B000MRP1WS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236923068&sr=1-1)
Oh I think that Hans Pfitzner deserves a little better than he has got so far ;D
The trouble with Pfitzner-and a number of other German composers working in a romantic or neo-romantic idiom in the 20th century-was that they suffered from a more violent reaction against their music than occured in any other European country. The German nationalism which Pfitzner espoused was so bankrupted by the events of 1914-45 that those who had been its more strident exponents were thrown aside with a particularly bitter and savage contempt. German music post 1945 embraced the avant-garde with particular enthusiasm. A few more conservative German composers' reputations survived but, usually, because they were either quite obviously musical giants(like Richard Strauss), had a 'clean' record from the 1930s like Hindemith, Hartmann or Blacher, or were sufficiently astute to cover their tracks(like Orff).
Pfitzner appears to have been a pretty dreadful character(most of the time!), combatative, argumentative, foul-tempered....but, occasionally, redeemed by a streak of curmudgeonly independence which got him into trouble even with the National Socialist regime. He died in 1949 in poverty and disgrace.
....but, he was a superb conductor and his music is most certainly not without merit. 'Palestrina' is-in my opinion-one of the masterpieces of the 20th century operatic repertoire. It is not the easiest opera to follow, dealing as it does with complex philosophical/theological issues, but it contains some absolutely sublime, visionary music. The three Preludes from the opera are worth anyone's time!
Pfitzner never equalled 'Palestrina', either in his other operas, or in his orchestral music(I am not equipped to comment on the chamber music) and I agree that the huge Cantata 'Von deutscher Seele' has its longuers although it does also include some very impressive passages. The Violin Concerto is, I think, a beautiful piece of late Romantic writing.
Pfitzner was not either a Mahler or a Strauss but in a more tolerant age those who appreciate Zemlinsky or Schreker, for example, might give his music a shot :)
Great post. And this
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2009, 12:50:26 PM
Palestrina' is-in my opinion-one of the masterpieces of the 20th century operatic repertoire. It is not the easiest opera to follow, dealing as it does with complex philosophical/theological issues, but it contains some absolutely sublime, visionary music. The three Preludes from the opera are worth anyone's time!
is spot on. The first Prelude, in fact, seems to me to be unique - I don't know anything else remotely like it, anyway.
(From PlaybillArts (http://www.playbillarts.com/features/article/7891.html))
QuoteThe composer Hans Pfitzner, born 140 years ago, remains a controversial figure even 60 years after his death. Not his music - an uncontroversially beautiful, high-romantic blend of Schumann and Wagner occasionally reminiscent of Humperdinck, Schoeck, Schreker, and Schmidt - but the political persona.
Somewhere between stubborn, naïve and ignorant, he uttered unambiguously racist phrases, was apologetic of Hitler and blamed everyone but Germany for World War II. He parroted anti-Semitic thoughts yet he went to great lengths to help and save "good Jews" (as he thought of them) like director Otto Ehrhardt, Felix Wolfes (a student of his) and his friend Paul Crossmann for whom he rang up Reinhard Heydrich to save (in vain).
He tried to ingratiate himself with the Nazi regime but was inconsistent about it and offended more with his arrogance than he pleased with his favors. The composer ended up ignored, if not shunned, by the officialdom of the Third Reich. He dedicated works to Jewish artists like Bruno Walter, Arthur Eloesser and Alma Mahler, yet was capable of writing a cantata to Hans Frank, Governor-General of Occupied Poland.
Thomas Mann, who admired his opera Palestrina (which he attended at its Munich premiere in 1917), thought him an "anti-democratic nationalist," Hitler spoke of him derisively as a "Jewish rabbi," and friend Bruno Walter stopped communicating with him when Pfitzner showed himself unrepentant after the war.
We gather that he was difficult to like. Bruno Walter probably said it best when he wrote to his publisher, after Pfitzner's death: "Have we not found in [Pfitzner's] personality the strangest mix of true greatness and intolerance that has ever made the life of a musician of such a rank so problematic?"
But the music of Pfitzner is too good to ignore, and in this anniversary year, three German Opera companies staged Pfitzner. Chemnitz tackled the largely forgotten, largely forgettable Die Rose vom Liebesgarten in a very professional staging. The Frankfurt and Munich Operas work on a different scale, of course, and they tackle Pfitzner's Magnum Opus, Palestrina.
*
The subject is the 16th century composer Giovanni Pierluigi Palestrina who prevents music being banned from church service at the council of Trent through his ingenious mass, the Missa Papae Marcelli, written under distress, angelic influence and breaking his writer's block. A sub-plot has his student Silla decide that the old master's traditional ways are not suited to his creative endeavors and plans to move to that secular sin-city of free roaming artists: Florence.
From WETA, Best of 2008 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442):
Quote#9 – (New Release) – Pfitzner, "Von Deutscher Seele" ("Eichendorff Cantata"), Radio Choir Berlin, German Symphony Orchestra Berlin (RIAS), Ingo Metzmacher – Phoenix Edition 145
This is the first recording of the genial yet neglected Hans Pfitzner "Eichendorff Cantata" since Martin Sieghart's (Arte Nova) in 1999, only the sixth ever made of this hour and a half-plus oratorio, and only the third made in the last 50 years. The neglect has political reasons, not musical ones, because Pfitzner's high-romantic blend of Schumann and Wagner (the results occasionally reminiscent of Humperdinck, Schoeck, Schreker, and Schmidt) is here, as in his magnum opus, the opera "Palestrina", as good as it gets. Unfortunately this friend of Bruno Walter's was a rabid (though inconsistent) anti-Semite, and, in Thomas Mann's words, an "anti-democratic nationalist". Stubborn, naïve and ignorant, he uttered unambiguously racist phrases, was apologetic of Hitler, and blamed everyone but Germany for World War II. Yet he went to great lengths to help and save "good Jews" (as he thought of them) like director Otto Ehrhardt, Felix Wolfes (a student of his), or his friend Paul Crossmann for whom he went all the way to Reinhard Heydrich to save. In vain, in that case, Crossmann died in Theresienstadt. He didn't make friends with the Nazis, despite agreeing with much of their philosophy, either: Hitler derisively spoke of him as a "Jewish rabbi" and Pfitzner was ignored, if not shunned, by the officialdom of the Third Reich. Perhaps Bruno Walter put it best, writing to his publisher after Pfitzner's death: "Have we not found in [Pfitzner's] personality the strangest mix of true greatness and intolerance that has ever made the life of a musician of such a rank so problematic?"
In any case, the obnoxious political undertones of Pfitzner have made his music less played than it should be on account of its musical merit (if we can listen to the murderer Gesualdo, can we listen to Pfitzner?). When the Munich Philharmonic chamber music series programmed the excellent Pfitzner Nonet (the Jewish community center might not have been a good venue of choice, admittedly), the concert had to be canceled due to pressure from the Central Council of Jews in Germany. When Ingo Metzmacher, a stalwart supporter of music suppressed by the Third Reich, performed the cantata in October of 2007 (from which this recording was taken), the Council protested again, claiming that in doing so, Metzmacher strengthened right-wing and nationalist activities. (Apparently more skinheads listen to Pfitzner than I thought possible.) Yet there is not an objectionable line or thought in this cantata (which in German has the additionally unfortunate title "Of the German Soul"), written in 1921 and premiered in '22. Part one deals with "Man and Nature", part two with "Living and Singing", and Solveig Kringelborn (soprano), Nathalie Stutzmann (mezzo), Christopher Ventris (tenor) and Robert Holl (bass) do this as well and better (Stutzmann) than their predecessors from half a century ago. Phoenix Edition has superior sound to all previous releases, the finest mezzo along with Jochum (Christa Ludwig), a more engaged orchestra than all but Jochum (Orfeo, BRSO), and no intrusive audience noises. It's great that ArkivMusic has made available again the (stodgy but star-studded) Keilberth recording with the BRSO, Fritz Wunderlich, Hertha Töpper, Agnes Giebel, and Otto Wiener, but unless price is an overriding argument (in which case Arte Nova wins out), this is the Eichendorff Cantata recording of choice.
and also from WETA (Christmas Music Part II): (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=222)
QuoteHans Pfitzner didn't make the reception of his music any easier by his confused and odious political utterances during the Third Reich- . But anyone who listens to any (Heribert Ritter von) Karajan recording might as well listen to Pfitzner compositions – especially because at their best, they offer the finest central European late romantic music that can be had next to Richard Strauss.
Long before he composed his undisputed masterpiece Palestrina, a serious and moving opera of Wagnerian proportions and ambition, he had worked on "Das Christelflein" (The Little Christmas Elf), a work that might best be described as a music-for-fairy-tale (or Children's-opera or simply "kitsch") and bears a marked resemblance to the later "Radio Operas" of Hindemith and Eek. It's set around a naïve story told in a mediocre libretto (Bruno Walter, his good friend, said that there wasn't a child so childish nor a man so strange that they'd get anything from the story) and I'd prefer to listen to it without any dialogue between the numbers. Since both recordings (CPO, 2005 and Bavarian Radio / Orfeo 1979) use some (adapted) text, one would either have to skip the tracks, program the CD player accordingly, or – most conveniently – burn a backup copy of the Christelflein that doesn't include the narration. A little effort – but worth it for the charming music that uniquely shows the sunny, lighter, and even childishly naïve side of Pfitzner.
[* It's not actually that simplistic. Pfitzner never, to our knowledge, said anything that tried to exonerate the Nazis, much less deny the gravity and horror of the Holocaust. He was unapologetic about the cultural greatness of Germany, though, at a time when such statements were most likely to be taken the wrong way.]
I'm just back from a terrific concert (well, two days ago, I guess...) of the Symphonic Suite of Pfitzner's "Eichendorf Cantate". Terrific stuff. And after hearing more of his works live, esp. Palestrina but also "Die Rose vom Liebesgarten", I'm more and more convinced that--as Pfitzner claimed--"Von Deutscher Seele" really is his undisputed masterpiece.
Thanks, Jens, for these lengthy quotes :) They are exceptionally helpful! -particularly in fleshing out the complex relationship between Pfitzner and the Nazi regime which I tried to hint at.
I must admit that the version of 'Von deutscher Seele' I have is the cheap Arte Nova one. I have no doubt that the new Metzmacher will make out a better case for the work.
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2009, 03:20:52 PM
Thanks, Jens, for these lengthy quotes :) They are exceptionally helpful! -particularly in fleshing out the complex relationship between Pfitzner and the Nazi regime which I tried to hint at.
I must admit that the version of 'Von deutscher Seele' I have is the cheap Arte Nova one. I have no doubt that the new Metzmacher will make out a better case for the work.
Yes, maybe Metzmacher is a little better, but Sieghart is EXCELLENT, too. It was my first recording of it and the one I got hooked on. Hold on to it. However, as colleague of mine who has been exposed to several versions, too, lately, finds one from 1945 particularly gripping. I'm not sure which one it is...
Probably this one (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000023RZ/nectarandambr-20), but I have to ask again to make sure.
If you can wait, maybe DG will keep the mikes on when Thielemann will perform it in two years. I'm dreaming of a cast that includes Christian Gerhaher, Klaus Florian Vogt, A.Pieczonka, and some great mezzo.
Quote#9 – (New Release) – Pfitzner, "Von Deutscher Seele" ("Eichendorff Cantata"), Radio Choir Berlin, German Symphony Orchestra Berlin (RIAS), Ingo Metzmacher – Phoenix Edition 145
This is the first recording of the genial yet neglected Hans Pfitzner "Eichendorff Cantata" since Martin Sieghart's (Arte Nova) in 1999, only the sixth ever made of this hour and a half-plus oratorio, and only the third made in the last 50 years. The neglect has political reasons, not musical ones, because Pfitzner's high-romantic blend of Schumann and Wagner (the results occasionally reminiscent of Humperdinck, Schoeck, Schreker, and Schmidt) is here, as in his magnum opus, the opera "Palestrina", as good as it gets.
(My emphasis)
Given that one should not be aping Schumann and Wagner c. 1920, (or ever?) and that aping 3rd and 4th level composers can never be good, I will submit that
Pfitzner's cantata has indeed been neglected for musical reasons.
Check my "German Glazunov" comments above: are there some interesting and good moments? Yes, but not enough to pull
Pfitzner off the bench.
I suspect he is being rehabilitated as part of the desperate search to sell new tonal music to conservative philistines, as opposed to pushing e.g.
Wyschnegradsky.
Ouch!
I said that those who like Zemlinsky or Schreker or, for that matter, Franz Schmidt "might give his (Pfitzner's) music a shot".
I certainly don't want to "sell new tonal music to conservative philistines" :)
Unless, of course I am a 'conservative philistine'.....which is entirely possible(well, the conservative bit anyway ;D)
Quote from: Cato on March 13, 2009, 06:38:59 PM
Given that one should not be aping Schumann and Wagner c. 1920, (or ever?) and that aping 3rd and 4th level composers can never be good, I will submit that Pfitzner's cantata has indeed been neglected for musical reasons.
Check my "German Glazunov" comments above: are there some interesting and good moments? Yes, but not enough to pull Pfitzner off the bench.
I suspect he is being rehabilitated as part of the desperate search to sell new tonal music to conservative philistines, as opposed to pushing e.g. Wyschnegradsky.
No one is barred from having opinions, of course. But when they are so grossly uninformed and so gratuitously inane, it might be best to keep them closer to oneself. Ignorance, no matter how proudly trumpeted as virtue, remains ignorance, after all. From what I can tell, there are four or five statements in your five sentences, and every one of them brims with juvenile pointlessness. May I submit that you haven't actually heard any Pfitzner--live or on record? (Or worse: that you'd not be able to judge the 'value' of his music, given that you flatter yourself with the "I'm-just-as-badass-as-Glenn-Gould-and-declare-Wagner-a-fourth-rate-composer" attitude...)
Quote from: jlaurson on March 13, 2009, 10:59:41 PM
No one is barred from having opinions, of course. But when they are so grossly uninformed and so gratuitously inane, it might be best to keep them closer to oneself. Ignorance, no matter how proudly trumpeted as virtue, remains ignorance, after all. From what I can tell, there are four or five statements in your five sentences, and every one of them brims with juvenile pointlessness. May I submit that you haven't actually heard any Pfitzner--live or on record? (Or worse: that you'd not be able to judge the 'value' of his music, given that you flatter yourself with the "I'm-just-as-badass-as-Glenn-Gould-and-declare-Wagner-a-fourth-rate-composer" attitude...)
No, you may not submit that! $:) And if you read carefully, you will note that the 3rd and 4th level composers are Schreker, etc. The review is not particularly wrong, but what the reviewer believes is a recommendation, I consider to be just the opposite:
Pfitzner is derivative. For those who want somebody to continue "aping" 19th and early 20th-century tonal composers, then Pfitzner apparently will be fine.
Hans Zimmer comes to mind as well!
So tell us, please: when should composers who aspire to greatness imitate and sound like
Schumann, Wagner, Schreker, Humperdinck, etc?
IIRC Pfitzner was around couple of decades older than Schreker and Schoeck, so a suggestion that he was aping them needs careful examination.
I'd also suggest, in passing, that Schoeck in particular is more than just the 4th-rate composer Cato implies him to be, or if that's not acceptable that at any rate he's more than just another late Romantic, which is the implication elsewhere. I say that firstly because Schoeck has one of the most individual melodic and harmonic styles of any late Romantic - which I can't in honesty claim for Schreker or Schmidt or (the much earlier) Humperdinck, or indeed for Pfitzner - and secondly because he explored mainly in the limits of a small, specific area (lieder) which to my mind places him somewhat apart from most of those in whose company his name is often brought up.
I must admit that when heated debate becomes so angry I am deterred from continuing to contribute :(
I would just say that a composer who could write the sort of music contained in Act I of 'Palestrina' is endowed with a quite superb talent. To my ears-and I can speak only for myself-that first act of the opera contains music of sublime and visionary beauty.
Now it is arguable whether or not Pfitzner ever reached such heights again(Jens obviously thinks very highly of 'Von deutscher Seele') and I am certainly not going to claim that Pfitzner was a 'great composer'(although I personally would rather listen to him than to Glazunov ;D).
Pfitzner is 'derivative'? Yes, probably....but do I care? The answer is no, I don't! I can listen with huge enjoyment, appreciation, and admiration to so many great composers whose music was ground-breaking and original. Sometimes I find others too complex for my own personal tastes. But equally I can enjoy the music of less original, perhaps even second-rate composers. I don't expect everyone else to suddenly hail such a composer as a forgotten genius but, if there are some fellow-spirits who share broadly similar tastes to my own, then I have no difficulty and indeed every intention of drawing the music to their attention :)
I have no problem with Palestrina and Pfitzner being considered worthy of a listen: read my original post above!
Even Hans Zimmer has his moments! 0:)
But this is not case where you will be finding a forgotten Bruckner or Tchaikovsky.
In either case, if you can find the CD at the library, borrow it before buying! $:)
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 14, 2009, 07:09:50 AM
I must admit that when heated debate becomes so angry I am deterred from continuing to contribute :(
Well, I've calmed. But it wasn't a debate that I felt was going on, but warrantless statements of opinionated derision without any observable attempt to do justice to Pfitzner. There's plenty that could be criticized in his music, perhaps even his style. But blanket dismissal with arguments that don't really fit is not helpful. Even if the ultimate response to his music should be negative (perfectly legitimate), it would behoove anyone to consider the very positive opinions of Pfitzner's music of his contemporaries (not the least of them Bruno Walter) who held him in the highest regard. Similarly, conductors so completely different than Ingo Metzmacher and Christian Thielemann think very, very highly of him, which ought to make us
consider the possibility that there might be something more to this composer than so far thought of. The way that Pfitzner can set a mood within two, three bars, for example, is exemplary and perhaps even unparalleled.
Of course, if Pfitzner is not played very well, his music sounds like s&*#. That might itself be a sign of (lacking) quality... although I attribute that more to the musical language that Pfitzner writes in. (If Schoeck's Notturno or most of Berg is not played perfectly, it sounds ghastly, too... if it's played well it becomes obvious that Schoeck is hardly a fourth rate composer.)
An opera like "Die Rose..." has its moments, but in the end it's not much more than a second rate rehashing of Wagner. Pfitzner's "Guntram", if you will. (Surely that'd be no reason to dismiss his other works.) Even
Palestrina hasn't entirely convinced me in the theater (although it wasn't helped by pedestrian conducting and a unloving production when I saw/heard it).
Yet there are highly modern, even progressive elements in Pfitzner's "Von Deutscher Seele", for example... quite different from what Richard Strauss wrote in Elektra or Salome and going well beyond what Strauss wrote at the time Pfitzner composed VDS. When played in concert with a work like Henze's
Bassariden-Suite that modernity really comes out. (As does Henze's romanticism.)
Cheers,
jfl
Quote from: Cato on March 13, 2009, 06:38:59 PM
(My emphasis)
Given that one should not be aping Schumann and Wagner c. 1920, (or ever?) and that aping 3rd and 4th level composers can never be good, I will submit that Pfitzner's cantata has indeed been neglected for musical reasons.
Check my "German Glazunov" comments above: are there some interesting and good moments? Yes, but not enough to pull Pfitzner off the bench.
I suspect he is being rehabilitated as part of the desperate search to sell new tonal music to conservative philistines, as opposed to pushing e.g. Wyschnegradsky.
You seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Germanic late-romantic composers. Perhaps you should concentrate on your English grammar thread where you do appear to have insight.
Cato recommends: Wyschnegradsky (???), Haba, Scriabin, Charles Ives, Harry Partch, Respighi, Louis Vierne, Tibor Serly, Theodore DuBois, Julian Carrillo, among others. 8)
Quote from: Cato on March 14, 2009, 08:44:33 AM
Cato recommends: Wyschnegradsky (???), Haba, Scriabin, Charles Ives, Harry Partch, Respighi, Louis Vierne, Tibor Serly, Theodore DuBois, Julian Carrillo, among others. 8)
And those others include Glazunov, Pfitzner and the increasingly popular Louis Glass.
Next up will be Max von Schillings ;D
WOW!
to paraphrase Scripture:
"look at what a hubub a little string quartet question can engender"
at whatever point i happen upon his qrts., i am sure to cherish them, whether i like the music or not, based upon the amount of rufflage of feathers that this poor dear man elicits.
i'm sold
now you boys play nice and i'll check on you in a few hours. don't wake up grandma. ::)
To show that Cato can indeed play nicely with others $:) he recommends Germanic post-Romantics Busoni, Alexander Zemlinsky, who kisses greatness now and then, along with the golden corn of Erich Korngold.
To the Pfans of Pfitzner I can only say "de gustibus..." If you have not yet heard Pfitzner, but are starting to explore, I am always interested in your reaction. Is he a Germanic Glazunov or not?
To the Pfans of Pfitzner I can only say "de gustibus..." If you have not yet heard Pfitzner, but are starting to explore, I am always interested in your reaction. Is he a Germanic Glazunov or not?
[/quote]
ahhhh....finally!! I just got the VoxBox Pfitzner/Hartmann/Zimmerman with Pfitzner SQs 2-3 (along with Pfs Violin Cto, Hartmann Funebre, and Zimm cto f. violin-still haven't listened).
well, well....wow. I started with the SQ 3 written in 1942 (PZ was in Germany) when PZ was in his 70s (keep in mind that Strauss really wrote no SQ). I thought about the "old master", the "last romantic"- living in the midst of...
No.3 (Reger Quartet):
So, the SQ 3 is really, what can I say, I really liked it. It's 20min (c minor- though not drammatically so), one movement (but with breaks). I guess if Brahms lived at the time (though I hear more Beethoven)...I was just surprised by the non-yawn factor. He has the "autumnal master" thing down, without being as obvious in his nostalgia as Strauss was around the same time.
Pfitzner is a melody machine! And good, nice, hummable ones. There is rythmic interest too, though the entire thing has such a gentle flow. LOOK- MY MOM LIKED IT!!! "nothing wrong with THAT" she said...and I don't know if my old old mum's OK poopoos the whole thing, but this quartet I really have to lift up as "the last Romantic SQ" until someone corrects me.
Yes, I want to say on a par with aspects of late LvB. I fully expect to come back to this one regularly.
No.2 (Austrian Quartet):
The notes said the SQ 2 (1925) in c# minor (yay!) was the more radical (tonality stretching yadayada), so I left it for seconds (in case I hated the 3rd). Well, once again,...wow! This quartet ROCKS! Four mvmts/2 parts.
I mean, there is some slashing and burning going on here, chromatics up, down and around, crashing...plaints wailing out of the din...then spells of pure lyrico. At 30min, this is almost the perfect SQ of its kind (Hindy, Krenek, Schoeck, Schmidt, Wolf, Busoni, Weigl, et al). It is wild...and sooo free. It kind of has the kitchen sink feeling...in a GOOD way!
PZ has some interesting Scherzo ideas, but to me he seems to integrate all elements at all times, very streamlined, yet many times at the threshold of wildness (Hindy 3-4). This is truly "serious guy w/goatee" music!! Again, this is sliiightly heaven storming.
Now, I know the CPO is the "one to get", but the Vox was $5, and I don't find to much to fault. There MAY be some crashing intonation disasters (which for this kind of music is death) due to the wildness (dense chromatics up and down), but it works for $5...none of my 5th rank SQ paranoias came into play. I can ONLY imagine how fine the CPO must be (but at 2 cds @$40), but these recording have a homeyness about them.
OK, now on the meat of the matter. GLAZUNOV? The name conjures rivers of yawns from me, though I'm not familiar w/ the SQs. Heard he was good at the Scherzo...that seems to be saying something. Still, I'd like to hear a late work or two (last SQ-1930). Also, I hear the curve of his melodies has an inherent blandness....snooziness...
I can't imagine PZs SQ No.2 to be written by a stereotype. It's profile is slightly anonymous for the time, but historically it has a VERY etched profile. Not to many people could have written it.
No.3, a classic, valedictory, old master work, COULD have been written by a "couple" of people, but their names start with B, not G. It reminds me of the 50min Faure-ian SQ No.2 by Roger-Ducasse (1953-Lowenguth). It is one of the gentlest, nicest...and I KNOW there will be some things lurking under closer inspection.
You know, I wasn't reaaally expecting too much from PZ, so chalk this one up as "reveletory". Either he's not the German Glaz., or Glaz is a Russian Hugo Wolf! Pfitzner, the German Miaskovsky??? 0:)
I haven't even heard the PZ Violin Cto with Lautenbacher yet. Maybe in an hour I'll be back with another rave!
Anyhow, I'd been looking forward to replying for a while now,...I gotta tell ya,...really impressed by the "last romantic" (Schoeck not withstanding).
Some personal similarities between PZ and Pettersson that are interesting, too.
I listened to 4min of the Violin Cto...and laid it to rest. Does that make me a bad person?
I still stand by my hyperbole over the SQs, though!
Quote from: snyprrr on April 16, 2009, 10:30:23 PM
I listened to 4min of the Violin Cto...and laid it to rest. Does that make me a bad person?
I still stand by my hyperbole over the SQs, though!
I actually don't yet now the VC -- but I know that many of his works, including his Cello Concertos, need absolutely perfect execution to sound good. I walked out after the first movement at a recent performance because I didn't want mediocrity to ruin my impression of Pfitzner.
And of course not all is good that he wrote... his opera "Die Rose vom Liebesgarten" is partly inspired but largely impotent (it's to Pfitzner what Guntram was to Strauss)... and even his magnum opus "Palestrina" isn't devoid of questionable lengths. (Again, it needs superb and very loving execution to sound good.) But there are moments in his chamber music (as you have found out) and his "Eichendorff Cantata" (a.k.a. Von Deutscher Seele) that are better--and certainly more modern--than just about anything R.Strauss wrote.
Having gone so far as to explore Pfitzner and given his SQ4ts credit, I think no one could blame you for laying the VC to rest after 4 minutes of non-inspiration. Perhaps you'll cross paths with it again, some time, when it's played so as to hint toward what is good about it (assuming there is anything good in it, in the first place, which I can't know.)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 16, 2009, 10:30:23 PM
I listened to 4min of the Violin Cto...and laid it to rest. Does that make me a bad person?
Hehe, I did exactly the same thing when I first heard it. Something about it I couldn't stand or didn't have the patience for. But when I came back to it later on, and listened more sympathetically, I found it to be quite an enjoyable piece.
I just got Vol.2 in the "Franz Schubert Quartet"/CPO survey of the SQs of Hans Pfitzner. This cd contains his Op.13 & his last, Op.50.
I have Op.50 (in c minor; 1942) also in the Vox version with a fairly no-name group. That recording revealed a minor masterpiece to me, and this lovingly prepared performances comes close to sealing the deal on this SQ being something of a final gasp of the German tradition. It truly has that autumnal, melancoly yearning for things forever lost, a little like Myaskovsky. The CPO vesion isa full 7mins longer than the Vox version.
The group, known mostly for their Nimbus release of the Franz Schmidt SQs (and Dittersdorf on CPO), has had a pretty good reputation for playing these late-Romantic, complex scores. Some have noted a bit of intonation in the Schmidt, which my ears haven't picked up on. Foremost, they have a nice, homogenous, and thick, tone, yet they are very delicate and are able to clarify lines very well. The Schmidt disc is about one of the most florid accounts of string writing/playing that you are likely to find.
The revelation here is Pfitzner's 1st SQ proper (there is also a d minor written when he was 17), Op.13. This was championed by Alma Mahler around the time of Pfitzner's first successes (1904). It's really just a very well put together uber-quartet, full of the kitchen sink, as so many of Pfitzner's contemporaries were in the throes of producing at around the turn of the century, culminating right around 1919 (think of Bloch's 50min No.1, the student quartets of Myaskovsky, Rspighi, and the like; Schoeck).
Perhaps the most obvious highlight is the scherzo, Kraftig mit Humor. The humor starts off with a take-off on the bumbumbum of the three chords of Haydn's Emperor Quartet, the three most stereotypically "classical" notes you could find; and from there, Pfitzner skirts banality with a very imaginative takeoff on Haydnesque musical humor.
Overall, these SQs come off as Hindemith's older brother, or Strauss' hidden masterpieces. I'm going to rank these SQs very high (the 2nd is truly a wild masterpiece; I haven't heard the student work), right there with Hindemith as a matter of fact. They are more enjoyable than Reger's. I haven't yet heard the Schoeck, though I suspect it will be somewhat like No.2.
With such a plush performance and recording, these SQs are revealed to be masterpieces of ultra late Romanticism. Highly recommended!
I'm not very fond of the violin cto nor of Palestrina either. From what I've heard by Pfitzner, I have a preference for his lieder. Some of them are deeply moving and superbly written in his post-brahmsian style. Especially the first series from 1889 : op.3, op.5, op.6 and also the mysterious An der Mond op.18. You won't find anything like that in the vocal lines of Palestrina (the opera, not the composer).
I find his later works rather diluted into chromatisms and modulations of all sorts.
CPO has recorded all the lieder (with quite beautiful covers).
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/217G2KK1HNL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31SKC9REBTL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21J0P3N6A7L._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/216PYKRKTBL._SL160_AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41358G9FZ0L._SL160_AA115_.jpg)
Thank you all for the discussion, heated or otherwise. Pfitzner is a composer who is part of my collection but not in a major way. Of his "Romantic" contemporaries (e.g., Schmidt, Zemlinsky, Wetz, Schreker, etc) he's been my least favorite (I confess I even prefer Siegfried Wagner). But then I don't know his music intimately, or in depth (I own Palestrina, the cello concertos, Thielemann's disc of preludes, not much else). This discussion has made me curious about the Lieder, quartets and that alleged masterpiece or monstrous bore, the Eichendorff-Kantate "Von dt. Seele" op. 28. CPO has boxed the Lieder and chamber works. Good prices, good performances, I don't think I can go wrong. The violin Concerto and Symphonies are also bargain priced now.
Still debating which version of the Kantate to get. Jens, have you heard the Andromeda recording with Wunderlich? Would I be making a mistake choosing Sieghart over Metzmacher? The '45 performance is relatively expensive in Europe.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2010, 05:43:39 AM
Still debating which version of the Kantate to get. Jens, have you heard the Andromeda recording with Wunderlich? Would I be making a mistake choosing Sieghart over Metzmacher? The '45 performance is relatively expensive in Europe.
Sarge
1.) I have not heard it. I've just e-mailed a colleague of mine who *really* loves one of the available early recordings of the Cantata... I always forget which one. I think the one with Krauss. In any case, I'll update this post as soon as he replies.
2.) No, I would not call it a mistake if you chose the Arte Nova over the--is it Capriccio? Phoenix... same thing. (Literally). The Sieghart was the first recording I had of the work and it certainly did not prevent me from falling in love with it, listening to it at night, on headphones, over and over. The Metzy has the better sound, but not by a distressing margin. Even so: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442)
Ah... good I checked my own article and was reminded: It
is the Krauss (Preiser) my colleague likes much better than Keilberth (Wunderlich) and Jochum (even though that's on the label he worked for). It's only $16,- on ArkivMusic -- but €38 on Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0000023RZ?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0000023RZ). Strange, huh?
Quote from: jlaurson on January 27, 2010, 06:49:16 AM
2.) No, I would not call it a mistake if you chose the Arte Nova over the--is it Capriccio? Phoenix... same thing. (Literally). The Sieghart was the first recording I had of the work and it certainly did not prevent me from falling in love with it, listening to it at night, on headphones, over and over. The Metzy has the better sound, but not by a distressing margin. Even so: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442)
I appreciate the reply. This sold me: "...but unless price is an overriding argument (in which case Arte Nova wins out), this [Metzmacher] is the Eichendorff Cantata recording of choice."
I found an amazon seller who offers the Metzmacher new for €10.97 (as cheap as Sieghart) so price didn't enter into it.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2010, 05:43:39 AM
Thank you all for the discussion, heated or otherwise. Pfitzner is a composer who is part of my collection but not in a major way. Of his "Romantic" contemporaries (e.g., Schmidt, Zemlinsky, Wetz, Schreker, etc) he's been my least favorite (I confess I even prefer Siegfried Wagner). But then I don't know his music intimately, or in depth (I own Palestrina, the cello concertos, Thielemann's disc of preludes, not much else). This discussion has made me curious about the Lieder, quartets and that alleged masterpiece or monstrous bore, the Eichendorff-Kantate "Von dt. Seele" op. 28. CPO has boxed the Lieder and chamber works. Good prices, good performances, I don't think I can go wrong. The violin Concerto and Symphonies are also bargain priced now.
Still debating which version of the Kantate to get. Jens, have you heard the Andromeda recording with Wunderlich? Would I be making a mistake choosing Sieghart over Metzmacher? The '45 performance is relatively expensive in Europe.
Sarge
I got my copy of SQs Vol.2 from Ebay. The 2 cds are pretty ridiculously priced on Amazon (Vol.1 goes for $55!). And, Vol.1 contains the wild No.2..., really the one to get.
The Vox 2-fer, with Hartmann, Zimmermann, and Pfitzer (w/S. Lautenbacher, violin) has Nos. 2-3 in fairly good performances (the group in No.2 is definitely thrown about a bit!) if you just want to hear the pieces, but the CPOs just have so much more nuance and sound and everything. One can never tell what's going to be stupid priced on Amazon (cds for $300???). On Amazon America, this cd does NOT list under "Pfitzner", but try the other names.
I hate it when you can get one volume of a series very easily, and then the other half takes one years to get,...uh, oh well! ::)
btw- thanks for PM!
The lack of female voices may be one of the things that kept Palestrina from the standard repertoire (though Billy Budd did not seem to suffer?). But I just love that work. The other work that is mighty fine is the Cello Sonata. Other than that, the other works that I have heard certainly did not excite me. But I would certainly rate his highly just based on that one opera alone!
(Should look into that cantata...)
Quote from: snyprrr on January 28, 2010, 06:45:15 AM
The 2 cds are pretty ridiculously priced on Amazon (Vol.1 goes for $55!) One can never tell what's going to be stupid priced on Amazon (cds for $300???). On Amazon America, this cd does NOT list under "Pfitzner", but try the other names.
I hate it when you can get one volume of a series very easily, and then the other half takes one years to get,...uh, oh well! ::)
I'm based in Germany. CPO discs are easy to obtain from JPC and they're usually cheap. The four disc box that includes the quartets is only €20 (and since I don't exchange dollars when buying from JPC or Amazon.de, the crappy dollar/Euro rate doesn't effect the price for me).
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Hans-Pfitzner-Kammermusik/hnum/8472141
Thanks for your reviews. I'm looking forward to hearing this music.
Sarge
Just listened to Pfitzner's symphonies Op. 44 and 46. Neither work shows obvious originality of style or method, but both demonstrate considerable craftsmanship. The first, Op. 44, the Kleine Sinfonie, is a transparent work, perhaps in the Mendelssohn mold, with elegantly dissonant harmony at times. The second, Op 46, has a certain Brucknerian mood, but condensed to 17 minutes. The recording on cpo with Alberts, is very nicely recorded and gracefully performed, and perhaps errs by being too tasteful.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 08, 2010, 05:56:45 PM
Just listened to Pfitzner's symphonies Op. 44 and 46. Neither work shows obvious originality of style or method, but both demonstrate considerable craftsmanship.
Seems like the essence of Pfitzner, of which I have about 8-9 CDs worth. The only work to really impress have been Palestrina, granted I haven't heard Von Deutscher Seele.
Quote from: Scarpia on February 08, 2010, 05:56:45 PM
Just listened to Pfitzner's symphonies Op. 44 and 46. Neither work shows obvious originality of style or method, but both demonstrate considerable craftsmanship. ...
That seems the most happily repeated impression about Pfitzner... and I'll be the first to admit that Pfitzner was an uneven composer with some obvious clunkers. ("Die Rose vom Liebesgarten", anybody? Yikes.) But he isn't lacking originality when he
is original--and he was harmonically ahead of Richard Strauss, eventually...
I agree about the performances, though... we really need recordings of all the
good Pfitzner orchestral works by Thielemann, who kicks ass and takes names when he gets to swing his baton to the sweet sounds of Pfitzner. (Rumors have it that he grows an imaginary handle-bar mustache, when conducting "Von Deutscher Seele", but that is definitely untrue.)
I don't want to give the idea I didn't like it. I was savoring those bittersweet harmonies. And the works had the advantage of being succinct. Nothing worse than a mediocre composer with disproportionate ambition, writing symphonies that go on and on and on. What was that remark by Stravinsky, that a lot of music keeps going long after it is over.
I'm listening to the CPO symphony/preludes disc now...and enjoying the hell out of it. The Presto of op.46 is actually thrilling. I wasn't expecting to be "thrilled" by Pfitzner ;D The Kleine Sinfonie is a delight. Perhaps the performances could be better but let's not be too hard on Albert and the Bambergers: they do a fine job actually.
This is the fourth Pfitzner CD I've heard from the seven I acquired last week. Criticism that he was merely aping 19th century models I've found to be not true. Von deutscher Seele sounds like a twentieth century work and the op.36 Quartet is one with its time period also: not wildly unconventional but not harmonically conservative either.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 06:26:29 AM
The Presto of op.46 is actually thrilling. I wasn't expecting to be "thrilled" by Pfitzner ;D
Yes, that is a high point, especially when the Bruckneresq motto from the opening of the symphony returns. One annoying thing about the release, though, is that the booklet contains an essay which takes grate pains to ridicule and belittle the music on the disc.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2010, 06:26:29 AMop.36 Quartet is one with its time period also: not wildly unconventional but not harmonically conservative either.
Sarge
Op.36 is truly one of the top "Ultra Late Romantic" SQs, along with Schmidt, though, Pfitzner definitely isn't as reclining as Schmidt. For me, Schoeck is the next one on the list. His main SQ promises to be another barn burner.
Did you listen to the Op.50 SQ? It surely has that nostalgia for things irretrieveably lost, a bit like Myaskovsky, but from Germany 1942, haha. Didn't he die is squalor after the war? Op.50 is becoming one of my favorite "moody time" listens.
Somewhere around here there is a Thread concerning the inter-war period, with Pfitzner, Schmidt, Hartmann, Hindemith, Schoeck, Toch, blah blah...
Quote from: snyprrr on February 09, 2010, 07:41:57 AM
Did you listen to the Op.50 SQ?
I did, several times (to each of the four quartets). Yes, there is that nostalgic element (I've been a sucker for "nostalgia" since I was 10 years old ;D ) although not as obvious as say late Strauss or some of Franz Schmidt's works.
The surprise was the D minor, much more accomplished and "mature" than I thought it would be. Of course it's more conventional than the other quartets, but not less interesting to me. The main theme of the first movement has an aching sorrow, the second theme almost a lullaby. The second movement is quite beautiful: a sad, rather slow, Dvorakian dance.
Sarge
Here is my "Pfitzner-story":
For me it is funny becouse i always had these NAMES i was drawn to. :o Pfitzner was one of them, i dont know why? Maybe becouse i had a rough idea when he lived and i always loved the late-romantics (and the "Post-Wagnerianism", what ever that means...). And come to think of it, his name resembles little bit MEDTNER!Now, i knew that many people loved MEDTNER, and i had read about him from a book about the great Vladimir Horowitz.
PFITZNER- MEDTNER; both composers who had some mixed attachment for two great musical countrys, namely Russia and Germany. I guess Medtner was a Russian born in Germany, and Pfitner a German born in Russia (in Moscow, i guess)? I am sure (???) there are two kind of people, those who love Medtner but dont warm to Pfitzner, and those who warm to Pfitzner but dont get Medtner, and i guess i belong to the latter :D
So i just read once of this radio-program that featured the Violin Sonata in e-minor. Even the key (e-minor) was something i was drawn to!(The same happened btw with Szymanowski; the name on a radio program, and announcement of a piano etude in E-FLAT MINOR. Here it was the same, i sensed that this had to to be -i knew absolutely nothing about the composer, never even read his name which seemed so difficult to pronounce- a late-romantic, and surely a slavonic composer -i loved Russian composers, i was fourteen or something-and the title of the piece and even the unusual choise of key suggested to me that this was a composer who was attached to the great Chopin tradition. Of course the etude charmed me totally, and later i came to know that its composer was greatly admired and revered ).
So, i listened that sonata. The first movement started with a melody which was just amazing and the music had this kind of melancholy, nostalgic aura which i found simply irresistable!The second movement had a depth in it while the final movement was so "germanic", you know music played "mit schwung"; the melody was a wonderfully hectic and victorous tune in E-Major.
From that experience onwards i knew i had found a new composer that i would cherish. But my encounter with Pfitzner would not be all just wonderment and admiration. I was suprised to find things in him that were baffling... he was not just this kind of warm and heartfelt romantic i thought he was when hearing the Violin Sonata. The 3rd String Qurtet had many beauties but also lots of embarrassing naivite and simplicity making me feel uncomfortable and not at all sure was he being serious. :-[ And his later orchestral music sounded often un-inspired and laboured, little pretentious, like the Symphony in c-sharp minor. Also his orchestration sounded simply-ugly and harsh! And the Pianoconcerto was another piece which was dissapointing, banal, uninspired and awkwardly and uneffectively written for the solo instrument.
So i had this battle with Pfitzner, always somehow convinced that he was an extremely gifted composer. Like when i got to hear an amazing, early cello concerto in a-minor- Again, there was this kind strange, partly slavonic aftertaste and surely it was inspired from the Schumann cello concerto (even the key), but not in a way that was disturbing. It was music so emotional and powerful- and so inspired and very very virtuosic for the solo instrument! I am still convinced thatit is a great romantic cello concerto and celllists should just find it!I am sure audience would love it! Its lyricism is simply wonderful and its all very dramatic. And has truly valuable thematic material, a big tune worthy of Tshaikowsky.
The Prelude to Palestrina is one of the most extraordinary peices of music that I know - incredibly beautiful and sounds like very little else. What is curious though is the amount of very obvious parallel fifths - has anyone got any ideas why Pfitzner might have done this?
The long Nachtmusik in "Von Deutscher Seele" (w. Sieghard/Wiener) is very beautyful, I find myself listening only to this. I didn't find really remarkable moments in the whole piece, but the Nachtmusik overall is very sweet and ... nighty. Reminds me of Mahler/7 sometimes.
Quote from: Guido on June 22, 2010, 08:53:10 AM
The Prelude to Palestrina is one of the most extraordinary peices of music that I know - incredibly beautiful and sounds like very little else. What is curious though is the amount of very obvious parallel fifths - has anyone got any ideas why Pfitzner might have done this?
It's a deliberate move to evoke the musical anachronisms of old music (pre-1600) where parallel fifths were a common stylistic device.
Really? Palestrina himself almost never used them - and when they do appear they tend to be obscured as much as possible.
What was the stylistic device used to denote?
Quote from: Guido on November 22, 2010, 10:13:14 AM
Really? Palestrina himself almost never used them - and when they do appear they tend to be obscured as much as possible.
What was the stylistic device used to denote?
I suppose that it's more about the *idea* of old music, rather than the actual music of Palestrina. Artistic licences to create atmosphere based on what Pfitzner assumes his audience connotes with what they hear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AWgG7FXr-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdy381LUM2o
"Palestrina" anno 2009 in Munich.
From: http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/pfitzner-hans
....He even dedicated an overture, Krakauer Begrüssung, to Hans Frank, the murderous leader of occupied Poland, in 1944. ....
Because of his advanced age, he was freed. He was taken to a home for the aged in Munich and later was transferred to Salzburg, where he died in misery. Eventually, his body was honorably laid to rest in a Vienna cemetery.
That "Krakauer Begrüssung" ( an overture for orchestra) represents a late and quite awful "gesture" from the embittered composer...But Palestrina has some magical moments. Even when the angels look like nuns-on-LSD.
P.
ps: for those who read German : http://wapedia.mobi/de/Hans_Pfitzner
Quote from: pjme on November 23, 2010, 01:09:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AWgG7FXr-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdy381LUM2o
"Palestrina" anno 2009 in Munich.
From: http://www.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/pfitzner-hans
Being of "pure" German parentage, Pfitzner was favored by the Nazi authorities...
This isn't actually true at all; he was shunned by the regime and his works rarely performed. Hans Frank was the son of a family friend, I believe. Hitler spoke derisively of Pfitzner as "that old Rabbi". (I'm not suggesting that Pfitzner did not try to buddy up with the Nazis; just that he wasn't any good at it. And he held very unpalatable views after the war... but all in all a very complex character.)
Unfortunately the Palestrina in Munich wasn't good at all; Thielemann had been intended as the conductor but that didn't work out; Simone Young was an unfortunate compromise and the staging loveless shite. The Frankfurt production was superior in every way, musically and especially directorally. Apparently I wrote three reviews of the darn thing in Munich...
http://www.playbillarts.com/features/article/7891.html (http://www.playbillarts.com/features/article/7891.html)
http://www.musicweb-international.com/sandh/2009/jan-jun09/pfitzner1901.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/sandh/2009/jan-jun09/pfitzner1901.htm)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/01/ionarts-at-large-pfitzners-palestrina.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/01/ionarts-at-large-pfitzners-palestrina.html) (identical as above, i think)
http://www.operatoday.com/content/2009/01/pfitzners_pales.php (http://www.operatoday.com/content/2009/01/pfitzners_pales.php)
Christmas Music from Pfitzner: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=222 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=222)
VdS: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=442)
Quote from: pjme on November 23, 2010, 01:09:56 AM
After the collapse of Hitler's regime, Pfitzner had to face a war crimes court in Munich in 1948. Because of his advanced age, he was freed.
I believe that's untrue too. He didn't "face a war crimes court" but had to go through the denazification process just like Furtwängler and Strauss (and countless others) and, like them, he was cleared--not freed because of his age.
Sarge
I copy-pasted far too quickly the little excerpt. I just had been looking for that infamous "Krakauer Begrussung" overture.
The (German) Wapedia article gives following information:
Nach einer Aufführung von Pfitzners Oper Das Herz in Ulm 1938 und einer erneuten Klage wegen Vernachlässigung seiner Werke wurde Pfitzner nach dem Beginn des Zweiten Weltkriegs von führenden NS-Funktionären als ,,deutschester der zeitgenössischen deutschen Komponisten" eingeladen, seine Werke in den besetzten Gebieten wie den Niederlanden, dem Elsass und in Paris aufzuführen.[40]
Am 20. Februar 1940 traf die Gauhauptstelle für politische Beurteilung der NSDAP (München) eine Beurteilung Pitzners: "Dem Nationalsozialismus steht Pfitzner bejahend gegenüber," eine Mitgliedschaft in Parteiorganisationen sei nicht bekannt, aber auch nicht ausgeschlossen. [41] Seit 1936 gehörte Pfitzner dem Reichskultursenat an.[42] Der Reichskultursenat diente dazu, die Reichskulturkammer gegen innerparteiliche Kritik zu sichern.[43]
Pfitzner nahm an repräsentativen Veranstaltungen und Ehrungen teil, im besetzten Holland dirigierte er 1941 eigene Werke, und im besetzten Paris 1942 wohnte er einer Aufführung des «Palestrina» bei.[44] Weiterhin erhielt er im Nationalsozialismus 1934 den Goethepreis der Stadt Frankfurt, 1935 die Brahms-Medaille der Freien und Hansestadt Hamburg, 1939 die Ehrenbürgerwürde der Stadt Frohburg in Sachsen, 1942 den Wartheländischen Musikpreis, 1943 den Beethoven-Preis der Stadt Wien und 1944 den Ehrenring der Stadt Wien.
Im Mai 1944 erhielt er von Hitler eine Dotation über 50.000 Mark.[39] Im August 1944 wurde Pfitzner nicht nur in der Gottbegnadeten-Liste genannt, sondern auch in der von Hitler erstellten Sonderliste mit den drei wichtigsten Musikern unter den ,,Gottbegnadeten", die ihn von sämtlichen Kriegsverpflichtungen befreite.[39]
Die Krakauer Begrüßung (op. 54), die Anfang Dezember 1944 im besetzten Polen in Krakau unter der Leitung von Hans Swarowsky uraufgeführt wurde, (Pfitzner dirigierte bei der Wiederholung selbst), war nicht seine einzige politische Komposition. Bereits 1916 hatte er Zwei deutsche Gesänge (op. 25; 1915/16) Großadmiral Alfred von Tirpitz für dessen Flottenpolitik gewidmet.[45] Die Krakauer Begrüßung von 1944 war eine Hommage an seinen Freund und Mäzen[46] den später wegen Kriegsverbrechen verurteilten Generalgouverneur des Generalgouvernements Hans Frank. [47][48]
etc.
P.
I own the CPO set of his orchestral works and I have to say that the music does nothing for me (right now). Well crafted perhaps, which has been mentioned above, but there's really nothing that jumps out at me. I'm going to have to re-examine some of his music and perhaps what I've learned within the year that I heard the set may give me a different perspective of the music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 25, 2010, 09:08:33 PM
I own the CPO set of his orchestral works and I have to say that the music does nothing for me (right now). Well crafted perhaps, which has been mentioned above, but there's really nothing that jumps out at me. I'm going to have to re-examine some of his music and perhaps what I've learned within the year that I heard the set may give me a different perspective of the music.
This is the attitude I wish everyone listening to classical music had.
For what it's worth, my access to Pfitzner was the Eichendorff Cantata ("Von Deutscher Seele"); listening to it repeatedly (for no good reason, because I knew nothing at all of Pfitzner then, nor having an inkling of whether it 'should' turn out rewarding) late at night, on headphones, before falling asleep.
Quote from: jlaurson on November 25, 2010, 09:15:31 PM
This is the attitude I wish everyone listening to classical music had.
For what it's worth, my access to Pfitzner was the Eichendorff Cantata ("Von Deutscher Seele"); listening to it repeatedly (for no good reason, because I knew nothing at all of Pfitzner then, nor having an inkling of whether it 'should' turn out rewarding) late at night, on headphones, before falling asleep.
Well thank you, but I can't claim that my mind was as open back then as it is now. I've had some musical awakenings since I've heard Pfitzner's music. My only wish is that people keep an explorer's attitude when listening to music. There's always something great just around the corner, but all that is required from the listener is making the effort in order to understand the music. There's going to music we all don't understand, like, for example, I'm still making an effort with Schoenberg's 12-tone output. Very difficult music to grasp fully. I can handle Berg and Webern with no problems, it's just there's something about Schoenberg's music that isn't quite connecting with me.
Anyway, listening to something one time and saying it's garbage isn't really giving music a chance. Some things require more time and effort. People say life's too short to listen to music you don't like or understand, but I say that if one is born with musical ability or finely tuned ears, then music is like the ocean, there's so much discovery, so why limit yourself to only a handful of composers or musicians? There are certainly more worth exploring I think.
Sarge-Alarm
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC05587.jpg)
Pfitzner Piano Concerto
Tzimon Barto
Christian Thielemann
Lucerne
September
Picture of Piano Part for Pfitzner's Konzert für Klavier in Es-dur. The Boesendorfer upright on the wheel-about contraption nearly toppled over when the pianist pictured dug into it to give me a few examples of the highlights of the concerto.
Quote from: jlaurson on January 31, 2011, 09:51:21 PM
Sarge-Alarm
Looks like I'll be attending not only Salzburg this year, but Lucerne also 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 01, 2011, 04:59:25 AM
Looks like I'll be attending not only Salzburg this year, but Lucerne also 8)
Sarge
Speaking of Salzburg: I should like to think that you will find the (English) liner notes on that composer whose symphony you are going to Salzburg for particularly lucid. :) [Unlike this contorted sentence.]
Quote from: jlaurson on February 01, 2011, 05:02:57 AM
Speaking of Salzburg: I should like to think that you will find the (English) liner notes on that composer whose symphony you are going to Salzburg for particularly lucid. :)
Written by you?
Just got the Piano Quintet and Sextet (Orfeo).
Surprisingly, I was totally unmoved by the PQ!?! It's an earlier work, but I liked the earlier SQ much more. I was really surprised here. Ha, I'm starting to get extremely spoiled here in the PQ department!
The Late Sextet, however, is a 'perfect' work in the style of HP's last SQ No.3. If you like the autumnal melancoly of that piece, then this Sextet is for you. Very very nice.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 01, 2011, 07:08:46 AM
The Late Sextet, however, is a 'perfect' work in the style of HP's last SQ No.3. If you like the autumnal melancoly of that piece, then this Sextet is for you. Very very nice.
Thanks for the tip, I like the SQ 3 very much.
Pfitzner is another composer I've been revisting, having enjoying his amazing piano quintet some time ago.
I recently acquired a vinyl rip of his Symphony in C, Op.46 (Dir. Ferdinand Leitner/BPO on DG) and was so overtaken I had to listen again. It is a short work, only 16 minutes or so, but wow, it still has an epic feel, and the beauty of the orchestration is enchanting, with the melody to back it up. Incredible.
So I acquired a broadcast recording of his violin concerto from the Unsung Composers forum, and again, I was overtaken by the sounds I was hearing, this blend of memorable harmony and orchestration.
I now have his piano concerto and Symphony no.1 in C minor next in line!
From MusicWeb this week (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Klaus_Heymann.htm):
"For his 80th birthday [in 2017], Klaus Heymann is planning to give himself the present of a recording of the complete orchestral music of Hans Pfitzner. He waxes most lyrical about the music from Pfitzner's opera Palestrina."
Do I read that as the Klaus-ster giving Palestrina as an entire opera, a miss?
Quote from: karlhenning on May 15, 2012, 06:11:57 AM
Do I read that as the Klaus-ster giving Palestrina as an entire opera, a miss?
Most likely. He said in the same interview that they did that series of Janacek opera "suites" because, as dearly as he loves the Janacek operas and as much as he wants to record all of them, he realized there was little to no money to be made in a complete-opera series.
I should have guessed so, and he is in a position to do better than guess.
I just got the full score of Palestrina for free - they were chucking it out at work!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5qNdvoe4EdM/T385kcE3K6I/AAAAAAAAB6E/nR1C_9bD0sI/s1600/DIP-YOUR-EARS.png)
Dip Your Ears, No. 131 (Pfitzner Supreme) (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-131-pfitzner-supreme.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-131-pfitzner-supreme.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/03/dip-your-ears-no-131-pfitzner-supreme.html)
Palestrina, Pfitzner's supposed masterpiece, can be dull. Not this one!
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 11, 2007, 04:42:24 PM
For example, I too regard the attitudes taken by Hans Pfitzner to most of his fellow composers with a goodly measure of contempt although it is probably fair to say that Pfitzner was a pretty unpleasant man for most of his life and that his jealousy of (some) other composers had led him to denigrate their work long before 1933. It is also true to say that his apparent admiration for Hans Frank, the Governor-General of Poland, was largely the consequence of Frank taking him in and looking after him in Cracow after he had fallen out with Hermann Goering! Should I stop listening to Pfitzner's music? I don't know.
Frank turned on him, so to speak, later, in getting him removed from his music position at Munich.
I was just listening to his Opus 1 cello sonata. Not bad, a little engaging work that no one will confuse with Brahms, for example, but it's a solidly crafted 3rd-tier work from a composer who lived a life that from what I have read, was not that happy. A bit of a crank, drawn to National Socialism in its early days from a fiercely German nationalist standpoint, but alienated by it by 1934, and who tried to protect his Jewish friends, not always successfully. Cursed by Hitler after his one meeting with him in a hospital, he tried to survive in an environment run by thugs, winding up homeless from Allied bombing and then going through the de-Nazification process (probably unnecessary) and eventually insane. A good craftsman, like the majority of composers, with a couple gems under his belt like
Palestrina and the G-minor cello concerto. Will need to spend some more time at the University library with that biography I found on him.
Classical CD Of The Week: Amid Debussy and Arno Breker
(https://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2017/03/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_PROFIL-Haenssler_Pfitzner-Busoni-Reger_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960)
http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek50 (http://bit.ly/CDoftheWeek50)
Unsure whether to push the boat out and actually buy cds of his music,I recently (well,before Xmas) made some cd-r's of Pfitzner's orchestral works from videos on Youtube. I must say,I actually found his music very interesting,and not what I would expect from him,based on what I have read over the years. I listened to the symphonies and Piano Concerto,by the way. Again,it didn't bowl me over,but I did find it interesting,if not quite engrossing.
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2017, 07:53:13 AM
Unsure whether to push the boat out and actually buy cds of his music,I recently (well,before Xmas) made some cd-r's of Pfitzner's orchestral works from videos on Youtube. I must say,I actually found his music very interesting,and not what I would expect from him,based on what I have read over the years. I listened to the symphonies and Piano Concerto,by the way. Again,it didn't bowl me over,but I did find it interesting,if not quite engrossing.
The "
Eichendorff Cantata (http://a-fwd.to/z2MzzFd)" is one of my favorite 20th century pieces of music, I have to admit somewhat sheepishly.
Perhaps politics does have something to do with it? I have Naxos cds of him conducting Beethoven,and they are well worth hearing,imho,through the rainstorm,pops and clicks of the extremely ancient recordings!
I don't think Pfitzner has many admirers here;but I listened to his Piano concerto a few weeks ago;and,for some strange reason,I rather enjoyed it. Even finding it strangely absorbing. It could do with some really good tunes;but I think it's the fact that it wasn't a conventional barn stormer that appealed to me. Allot of it seemed to unfold in a meditative,ruminative,manner over a long expanse of time. It also had that Germanic quality,which appeals to me,but without being one of those conventional,noisy barn stormer's I referred to earlier. I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread;but I might even buy the Cpo cd,eventually! His symphonies are also not quite the throw backs I expected,either. For some reason I put the Leo Ornstein Piano concerto (on Youtube) on the same cd-r as the Pfitzner. That really did get my attention!!!! Anyone else here,heard that one?
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 24, 2018, 06:10:05 AM
I don't think Pfitzner has many admirers here;but I listened to his Piano concerto a few weeks ago;and,for some strange reason,I rather enjoyed it. Even finding it strangely absorbing. It could do with some really good tunes;but I think it's the fact that it wasn't a conventional barn stormer that appealed to me. Allot of it seemed to unfold in a meditative,ruminative,manner over a long expanse of time. It also had that Germanic quality,which appeals to me,but without being one of those conventional,noisy barn stormer's I referred to earlier. I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread;but I might even buy the Cpo cd,eventually! His symphonies are also not quite the throw backs I expected,either. For some reason I put the Leo Ornstein Piano concerto (on Youtube) on the same cd-r as the Pfitzner. That really did get my attention!!!! Anyone else here,heard that one?
Don't know much about Pfitzner who appears to have had a rather ambivalent relationship with the Nazis. I have a CD of Ornstein's piano sonatas on Naxos which I recall enjoying.
Yes,I wouldn't suggest rushing out to buy that one. I quite like the ruminative mood,which seems to unfold over a long time span,with little,apparent,action. Some might refer to it as noodling! ;D There is a noisy bit,though. I quite like that brooding Germanic sound. Albeit,not the Hitler/Nazi kind,of course!! I suppose Reger's Symphonic prologue to a tragedy,is another example. I like it's glowering,brooding,Germanic,demeanour,with fun,noisy climaxes. The Schwann recording almost,literally,struggling with the sound level,adding to the feeling of something huge and portentous. If only it had a really good tune!! The Pfitzner might have just suited the mood I was in. As I said;I might buy it,at some point! I might not! Not something to get too excited about. Yes,his politics is a bit off putting! ::) But I try to separate the two,if the music is of any interest,or value. I also notice that his Symphonies are not quite what I expected. I think with someone like Pfitzner,I tend to assume that his music is going to be Wagnerian;ie noisy and blustering. It's just a bit different to what I expect. But no,I can't say I've heard anything,so far,that makes me go,"I'm going to have to buy a cd of that! And,with respect to my bank balance;maybe,I should be grateful to Pfitzner for that!! ;D
I do have the Naxos releases of his recordings of Beethoven symphonies,made in the twenties;and I think his interpretations are worth hearing.
Pfitzner did have sympathies with some Nazi causes but he was such a curmudgeon that he alienated himself from them and did not rise to any powerful positions during the Third Reich. (Despite his antisemitism he apparently also kept a cordial correspondence with Bruno Walter, even after the war. He was a strange and troubled guy in many ways, it seems)
I only know some of his music and that not very well. The chamber music on cpo is worth exploring. Pfitzner sounds less learned and more passionately romantic than Reger. Think of late romantic/fin de siècle with some archromantic Schumannian flavor mixed in. The Eichendorff Cantata is a fascinating piece that illustrates that dark romanticism (the curse? of the "German Soul").
The opera "Palestrina" is probably the Pfitzner piece that has been best served on disk and has also been surviving on stage, although not quite in the mainstream. (There are a few other operas that apparently used to be somewhat popular at least in German speaking countries.)
I found the Wiki article on Pfitzner to be most interesting and featuring a great photo of the composer c.1910:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Pfitzner
I liked it that he refused to write music for 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' to replace that written by Medelssohn, during the Nazi era, stating that nothing he wrote would be as good as Mendelssohn's score!
Good for him! Ultimately,he doesn't seem to have done very well out of his support for that regime,though! It's interesting to note,reading some of the posts on this thread,that enthusiasm expressed for Pfitzner's music,doesn't seem to have led to more posts. Presumably,initial enthusiasm palled? Or maybe,Pfitzner enthusiasts like to keep their enthusiasm to themselves?!! :-\ ;D
His recordings of Beethoven symphonies are,certainly,worth hearing,now and again;through the shellac hiss,pop and crackle,imho!
I spent some time exploring Pfitzner's oeuvre some years ago, and I must admit that I havn't been really convinced.
He writes in a very compact way, with loads of chromatisms and counterpoints everywhere, which makes his pieces rather thick. His style is close to Reger's and lesser known post wagnerians like Wetz for ex. Melodically it's hard to say, since his themes are drowned into harmonic contorsions and detours. Orchestrally, he has a feeling for strings : this is particularly true for the overture of his, otherwise dull, opera Palestrina, and some parts of his unique symphony. But he almost completely ignores the other instruments.
I found his orchestral pieces (including a violin concerto) and chamber works (trio and string quartets) rather boring.
All in all, it is pretty much academic, full of romantic clichés (musically and litterary) and one couldn't say it's original. But it's very well crafted.
In order to finish my comment with a more positive note, I must say that I have been deeply impressed by some of his lieder, a genre in which he seemed more at ease. It's not original (rather post-Brahmsian), but it's beautifully written. There he's closer to Wolf than to Reger, to the joy of the listener, and I would recomand particularly the lieder op.3, 5, 6 18 & 40 in the series published by CPO.
Here's one of my favorites : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vKWMMqiI0o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vKWMMqiI0o)
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 26, 2018, 07:19:03 AM
Good for him! Ultimately,he doesn't seem to have done very well out of his support for that regime,though! It's interesting to note,reading some of the posts on this thread,that enthusiasm expressed for Pfitzner's music,doesn't seem to have led to more posts. Presumably,initial enthusiasm palled? Or maybe,Pfitzner enthusiasts like to keep their enthusiasm to themselves?!! :-\ ;D
His recordings of Beethoven symphonies are,certainly,worth hearing,now and again;through the shellac hiss,pop and crackle,imho!
He wasn't a system-friendly Nazi... he was an inconvenient Nazi. Hitler is said not to have liked him and, anecdotally, referred to him as "that old Rabbi". Yet Pfitzner expected to be treated by the regime as THE German composer. More damning yet, he was unrepentant after the war and didn't quite "get" how it was all to have been so bad. Bruno Walter eventually gave up on him... suggesting that he was too complex and contradictory to remain friends with. (Or something along those lines; haven't got the exact quote at hand though I might have used it in my writing about Pfitzner somewhere.)
I'm fond of the Symphony in C major, and Palestrina is a gorgeous wallow.
[asin] B008P76VBW[/asin]
[asin] B0000012UR[/asin]
TTT! after two years - this thread lasted just a few days without much in the way of recordings being discussed - now listening to my modest Pfitzner collection, just the top 4 CDs below (bought as a CPO box 10 years ago which has not seen my CD player in a long while!) - but this morning, I'm enjoying all from this rather 'complicated' composer (see the earlier link to his Wiki bio) - in fact, just ordered the 2 CDs at the bottom of his Cello Concerti and Piano Quintet/Sextet.
For those interested, reviews attached of the top four discs - hope others will jump in to refreshen this thread - Dave :)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/413HKZ274NL.jpg) (https://cdn.imslp.org/naxoscache.php?pool=others&file=999704-2.gif) (https://img.discogs.com/RbSqqaq2uXXHcA8zxSJev7nVLbI=/fit-in/600x589/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-14441070-1576493708-2357.jpeg.jpg) (https://www.chandos.net/catalogueImages/CX9526.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510QMLEA2pL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/618ZiRI9qYL.jpg)
I also have the five cpo discs, the first four of which were put together in a box that also had the first Friedrich paining as a cover. I also have the piano concerto from cpo. One relevant chamber work that is missing, is the cello sonata. There is maybe also a recording with Gerhardt, I got one on ArteNova with Schiefen (coupled with the early sonata by R. Strauss).
I've recently enjoyed the Altenberg Trio's recording of the early Piano Trio op.8. Years ago I listened quite a lot to some of the - often somewhat Autumnal - orchestral works (symphony op.36, piano concerto, cello concertos).
This is my modest collection:
LP "Palestrina", Opera (1912-15)/Kubelik,F-Dieskau,Gedda,BayrRSO/dg 4lp 2740 223
lp "Palestrina", 3 Orchestral Preludes (1912-15)/Leitner,BPO/dg 2543 822 + dg 2lp 2726 074
LP "Von Deutscher Seele", Cantata op.20 ()/Keilberth,Soli,BayRSO/dg 2lp 2727 008
CD "Symphony", cis-mol op.36a (after Str4)(1932)/Albert,BambSO/cpo 92 999 136-2
CD "1.Cello Concerto" a-mol (1888)/Geringas,Albert,BambSO/cpo 93 999 135-2
lp "Piano Concerto" op.31 ()/Gieseking,Bittner,HambPO/discocorp mono 43-xx igi 363
CD "Violin Concerto" h-mol op.34 (1924)/Gawriloff,Albert,BambSO/cpo 90 999 079-2
CD "2.Cello Concerto" G-Dur op.42 (1935)/Geringas,Albert,BambSO/cpo 93 999 135-2
CD "Duo f. Violin, Cello & Orchestra" op.43 (1937)/Gawriloff,Berger,Albert,BambSO/cpo 90 999 079-2
CD "3.Cello Concerto" a-mol op.52 (1943)/Geringas,Albert,BambSO/cpo 93 999 135-2
CD "Scherzo" f.Orchestra (1888)/Albert,BambSO/cpo 90 999 079-2
CD "Elegie und Reigen" f.Orchestra op.45 (1939)/Albert,BambSO/cpo 92 999 136-2
CD "Fantasie" f.Orchestra op.56 (1947)/Albert,BambSO/cpo 92 999 136-2
CD Pfitzner/Frommer:"Piano Trio" B-Dur (1886)/RobertSchumann3/cpo 01 999 736-2
CD "Piano Trio" F-Dur op.8 (1896)/RobertSchumann3/cpo 01 999 736-2
cd "Piano Trio" F-Dur op.8 (1896)/AltenbergTrio/challenge classics 02 cc72092
LP "1.Cello Sonata" fis-mol op.1 (1890)/Mantel,Frieser/mhs 1590
LP "5 Piano Pieces" op.47 (1941)/E.Frieser/mhs 1590
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61xIwsQILHL._AC_SL425_.jpg)
This was my first exposure to Pfitzner's music. I hadn't expected anything special but the piece bowled me over.
Then I listened to the violin concerto and had the same reaction. The first movement is based on an upward leap followed by a downward arpeggio, eerily similar to a movement of Ysaÿe's second solo violin sonata (Les Furies, from sonata no 2). I checked the latter's date and found that it had been published the year before Pfitzner wrote his concerto. I really wonder at the coincidence. Be that as it may, it's a remarkable movement. The second is an orchestral intermezzo (the violin remains silent throughout). Somber and uneasy music. The finale is a hugely tuneful piece of work, quite the showpiece IMO. Remarkable. Next on that 2 disc set are 2 string quartets (2 and 3). I'll be listening to them shortly.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Tpt-K71zL._AC_.jpg)
In the mail are the Wergo recording of Von deuscher Seele under Hollreiser
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jTA6WJskL._AC_SL425_.jpg)
and the orchestral works under Thielemann. I might buy the 5-disc set of orchestral works on CPO.
I'm not sure about Palestrina though. It might be quite an undertaking without the visual element. Any recommended DVD?
The String Quartet in C-sharp minor, Op. 36, from this particularly attractive set, is a masterpiece of the highest caliber. Now I know why there is an orchestration, a proper Symphony, Op. 36a. My curiosity was seriously piqued. Warmly recommended if you have affinity for Hindemith, Krenek, Zemlinsky, Schreker, etc.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODYwNTEwNi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1NTA4NzUwMzV9)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51sNEfP3g5L._SX466_.jpg)
I had forgot how incredible and peculiar work his Violin Concerto, Op. 34 is. You would think that it could be written by Wetz, Schreker, Korngold without the 'Hollywoodesque' feel to it, Zemlinsky, even Paul Juon! But it wasn't. It's a work of his own. Its construction, development, ideas are rather different to anything else I had heard before. One of the greatest 'forgotten' Violin Concerti IMO.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 25, 2022, 08:53:08 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51sNEfP3g5L._SX466_.jpg)
I had forgot how incredible and peculiar work his Violin Concerto, Op. 34 is. You would think that it could be written by Wetz, Schreker, Korngold without the 'Hollywoodesque' feel to it, Zemlinsky, even Paul Juon! But it wasn't. It's a work of his own. Its construction, development, ideas are rather different to anything else I had heard before. One of the greatest 'forgotten' Violin Concerti IMO.
+1
A truly unique work.
Quote from: André on May 25, 2022, 10:58:31 PM
+1
A truly unique work.
His Piano Concerto and Cello Concertos also contain significantly original ideas and construction. I'm getting fascinated by his voice more and more.
Quote from: Charles Rosen
Conspiracy theories are generally absurd. Some years ago a critic in The New York Times wrote that there was a conspiracy to prevent the music of Hans Pfitzner from being perfomed. I remember wondering how one could join such a splendid conspiracy. Of course, the simple truth, then as now, is that of the small number of people who were acquainted with the music of Pfitzner, many of them did not care for it.
Sorry, couldn't resist! :D
I do (kinda) like
Palestrina (longueurs and all), and revisit the work every once in a while. But when I first became acquainted with
Pftzner's
Piano Concerto (decades ago, on a CPO disc), I found the piece downright repellent and haven't listened to it since. Perhaps I should give it another chance... :)
By knowing your tastes, I'm already foreshadowing your reaction, Rafael! ;)
There is probably no need to invoke a conspiracy but Rosen's brief dismissal is also quite facile. Pfitzner is obviously in the shade of his contemporaries Mahler and Strauss. To be not up with the greatest doesn't mean a composer has not some worthwhile music, and if I consider how much (too) late romantic music has been dug up Pfitzner holds up reasonably well.
If Reger tried to be a kind of Uber-Brahms, a main inspiration for Pfitzner seems to have been Schumann and the early "dark" romantic. Palestrina is still staged with some frequence, I think. Another masterpiece, the Cantata "Von deutscher Seele" shares a bit of the fate of similar large scale vocal-orchestral pieces.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on May 25, 2022, 08:53:08 PM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51sNEfP3g5L._SX466_.jpg)
I had forgot how incredible and peculiar work his Violin Concerto, Op. 34 is. You would think that it could be written by Wetz, Schreker, Korngold without the 'Hollywoodesque' feel to it, Zemlinsky, even Paul Juon! But it wasn't. It's a work of his own. Its construction, development, ideas are rather different to anything else I had heard before. One of the greatest 'forgotten' Violin Concerti IMO.
Most intriguing, Cesar! I've heard great things about this work. I very much enjoy his cello concerti (especially the one in G major) and his Piano Concerto (save for its rambling first movement).
Quote from: Jo498 on May 28, 2022, 06:13:05 AM
There is probably no need to invoke a conspiracy but Rosen's brief dismissal is also quite facile. Pfitzner is obviously in the shade of his contemporaries Mahler and Strauss. To be not up with the greatest doesn't mean a composer has not some worthwhile music, and if I consider how much (too) late romantic music has been dug up Pfitzner holds up reasonably well.
If Reger tried to be a kind of Uber-Brahms, a main inspiration for Pfitzner seems to have been Schumann and the early "dark" romantic. Palestrina is still staged with some frequence, I think. Another masterpiece, the Cantata "Von deutscher Seele" shares a bit of the fate of similar large scale vocal-orchestral pieces.
Masterpiece is the appropriate word.
I had intended to give this work a proper listen and finally I got around to paying attention to it. The wait paid dividends, this is rapturously gorgeous in generous doses. Pfitzner's orchestration gifts show how a good composer he was, the way he used the orchestra to evoke some ethereal, even ecstatic atmospheres is remarkable to say the least (just notice the sections Abend and Nacht, for instance), albeit the cantata is not devoid of tempestuous moments (Tod als Postillon and Der jagt dahin, daß die Rosse schnaufen are good examples of it). The work has hints of Wagner and perhaps Strauss, but one has the perception that Pfitzner didn't want to sound derivative, this is a work of his own that conveys a genuine sentiment of beauty and nobility. Both performance and recording didn't leave anything to be desired, I think they are up to the expectations and do justice to the greatness of the piece. A splendid discovery I must say.
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODA0OTE5NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMzM4MjZ9)
Huh...this is the side of recording I find fascinating. He's hardly a staple of the repertoire and yet the Big Yellow Label felt it worth committing to record this work which I shall investigate alongside his other stuff.
Quote from: Jo498 on May 28, 2022, 06:13:05 AMThere is probably no need to invoke a conspiracy but Rosen's brief dismissal is also quite facile. Pfitzner is obviously in the shade of his contemporaries Mahler and Strauss. To be not up with the greatest doesn't mean a composer has not some worthwhile music, and if I consider how much (too) late romantic music has been dug up Pfitzner holds up reasonably well.
If Reger tried to be a kind of Uber-Brahms, a main inspiration for Pfitzner seems to have been Schumann and the early "dark" romantic. Palestrina is still staged with some frequence, I think. Another masterpiece, the Cantata "Von deutscher Seele" shares a bit of the fate of similar large scale vocal-orchestral pieces.
Well, now you've gone and piqued my interest about this composer about whom I've never had the slightest interest. Probably because I read that Charles Rosen quote once upon a time and thought it was so funny that I couldn't help but want to join this splendid conspiracy ;D
Pfitzner's main fault is being not quite as good as Mahler and Strauss, not as good in niches (like choral, organ and piano music) as Reger, and hopelessly old-fashioned compared to Schoenberg and the younger modernists active in the early 20th century.
To be similarly facile: If Pfitzer had been Swedish or Dutch he would probably be the most famous Swedish/Dutch composer in history. Had he been Belgian, British or Finnish he would have been around top 3 etc.
Very enjyable Pfitzner Quartet 3 from the Koeckert Quartet. Are there any other recommendable Pfitzner quartet recordi
Just re-listened to the Violin Concerto (Taschner/Kempe & Lautenbacher/Wich). It is a much better work than I remembered. I haven't listened to it for over two decades. The cello concertos are a more recent discovery which I also like.
I have several of his works on the same CD as Strauss. For instance, the cello sonata (with the Strauss) and the opera orchestral overtures (or fragments) with Strauss. They suffer by comparison. Pfiztner would be rated so much higher had he been slightly pre-Strauss/Mahler...
There is not so much competition in chamber music and concerti from Mahler and Strauss, though. But as I said, Pfitzner certainly suffers from being slightly old-fashioned in the early 20th century against a host of excellent composers.
Listening to some of his Lieders right now. They are really good.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 23, 2023, 03:15:38 AMThere is not so much competition in chamber music and concerti from Mahler and Strauss, though. But as I said, Pfitzner certainly suffers from being slightly old-fashioned in the early 20th century against a host of excellent composers.
You are right. But the Strauss violin sonata and cello sonata are so much better than the Pfitzner, even though chamber music was never Strauss's forte.
Well the op 50 quartet is better than any string quartet by Mahler or Strauss that I've ever heard.
Sometimes you come across a recording which seems to be such a labour of love that it reveals heights which were previously hidden. Uwe Schenker-Primus and Klaus Simon's series of songs on Naxos - maybe vanity funded - could well be just that! No reviews that I can see - even on Amazon.de. Has this sequence of recordings been ignored?
(https://rovimusic.rovicorp.com/image.jpg?c=6oDRgZy3R0Ae9UO4peQ6uByhM-OFI8zG4l-qVpXXB1I=&f=4)