Hi there!
Have you ever tried to get another person to like classical, even if they disliked it or thought it was *gasp* boring?
What did you do? What music did you play for them? Did you have success?
Share your stories!
As I mentioned in the Mahler thread, I got someone into Mahler yesterday. I didn't even try, though- he just knew I listen to classical and wanted some to listen to, so luckily I had Boulez's 2nd with me, and let him listen. He saved the tracks to his computer and enjoyed very much, and not just saying he enjoyed it, but really did. I think he already heard a little bit before, which might have helped, although I haven't asked.
Besides that, the only way you could probably get someone to like classical is to work out a deal where you listen to their music and they listen to yours- and pretend to like theirs so they'll be more open-minded.
I just drop subtle hooks, and if I get a bite I take it slowly. The key thing is not to shove stuff in their face, or risk overdosing them on it. Treat it like you were cultivating a bonsai tree :P
If they don't yet know what they are looking for, don't shy away from the scary 20th century stuff (demonstrating diversity is a good way to avoid somebody immediately giving up when they find it "all sounds the same"). People might freak out if they hear it on radio or buy a CD expecting something different, but if you explain them through it, it tends to go much more smoothly.
Mahler's an easy sell, I've had luck with him in the past.
Mozart, Bach and Beethoven are too tough, the noob finds the music too dry.
I also tried Gorecki, yeah that doesn't work! :D
I'm thinking some one like Carter might work, anyone tried with some straight up contemporary classical?
Bruckner! 8) Death metal fan: it worked.
Besides this, I have known all varieties of classical to work in getting someone to listen to the music, given the right context. But for hooking them, I'd stick to my Romantic and Modernist guns. I wouldn't try classical-era music; though maybe I might try Bach.
(I certainly haven't done so; whereas Mahler, Sibelius, Shostakovich and Brahms have all worked in my getting people comfortable with the genre.)
I forgot to even finish my post ::) I guess it's a sign I've beena wake too long.
I've had specific successes with the following people:
Someone looking for the "hits": I suggested the usual suspects (especially when they played tunes for me and I put names to them), they were hooked. Easy-peasy, and they were fine with lite modernism too.
Metal/pop music fan: Anything "weird" that I could find - Xenakis, Sciarrino, Rihm, Kagel, etc. It hasn't turned them into an active listener, but whenever we're in the same room with music playing, they want those kind of pieces, and enjoy them when I am there to talk about them with (and it improves my enjoyment of certain pieces for me as well, sometimes)
Mentally messed up metal fan (the former was not caused by the latter :P): Schnittke worked well, especially the quartets and first concerto grosso.
A common question from metal fans is "epic" music, and quite oddly, I've found that Mahler doesn't fare very well when I recommend him to these people. Bruckner and Wagner tend to go down a treat. Throwing some left-field stuff like Pettersson or Leifs tends to produce some intense positive reactions as well.
My biggest problem is people who want "nice" but unintrusive music. This kind of person will show an interest in what I am playing, whether it's Mozart or Vasks, and appear to enjoy it when we're talking with it in the background - they will bring it up every now and then during our conversation - but maddeningly, the moment our social engagement finishes, they seem to forget that it existed. This kind of "I like classical" individual has given me a lot of false hope in the past :P
Quote from: Lethe on March 26, 2009, 05:04:38 PM
This kind of "I like classical" individual has given me a lot of false hope in the past :P
Anyone who claims to just "like Classical music", without citing specific pieces or composers, is usually either full of it or uneducated.
My good friend who, unfortunately, doesn't seem to have much interest in classical music, responds more favorably to "gestural" music (i.e. music that can be most easily described in broad "gestures" rather than describing its formal aspects). I've played for him Varèse, Nørgård, and Boulez and he seemed to enjoy it more than when I played him Sibelius, Nielsen or Debussy. I think it's because of his background with non-traditional non-classical music (he's a big fan of electronic music) and its focus on interesting timbres rather than any kind of formal development (other than that of a rudimentary sort).
I've 'converted' a few, but I think a soft sell usually works best. I ask if they ever watched Tom and Jerry or other cartoons where classical is often used in the story in some way. Usually they have and so I start from there - Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody no2, for example, which is quite dramatic and people picture the cartoon in their head. Other starting points could be Rossini, Strauss II, and various other short works (March Slave, for example). I find people need to work up to longer pieces. But the actual recommendation will depend on their interests (some know film music, like Moonstruck, ;D). Movies and cartoons make great starting points.
Quote from: tanuki on March 26, 2009, 03:56:41 PM
Hi there!
Have you ever tried to get another person to like classical, even if they disliked it or thought it was *gasp* boring?
No. I find the act condescending. And I can well understand people finding classical music boring as the gratification is not instant -most of the time.
I would gladly try to help a person if s/he expressed interest in classical music, of course.
I'm always trying to get more people to listen to classical music,and currently do a classical music program at a nursing home in New Rochelle, NY for people who already enjoy it. I'm always trying to get more residents here to come, but some just don't want to. Others say they might give it a chance.
And a friend of mine,who's never been to an opera performance,is always making fun of opera based on his misconceptions about it.
He's seen the bugs Bunny cartoons etc spoofing opera, and thinks they're a riot. They are, but if you are familiar with opera,they're even funnier because you get the in jokes!
He has a stereotyped image in his mind of fat,ridiculous people in Viking hats and rich,bored people in the boxes going to the opera for purely social and snobbish reasons.
Anbd he calls classical music in general "Crap". Some people just never learn.
It's stereotypes and myths about classical music that keep many people from trying and enjoying classical music. Remember the Allan Bloom book"The Closing of the American Mind?
My brother is in to death metal. I played him Ligeti's Atmospheres and he said it was "like the gates of hell opening" but didn't look impressed Too much too soon. >:D
I just tell them they are too stupid and ignorant to comprehend it. It may not work all the time but at least i have enough sense not to bullshit them. They tend to respect that.
I have had 100% success as long as the other person starts at 4 years old or less. Talk about a tabula rasa! They will follow you right off the cliff.
I worked with my grandchildren - 2 of them. The older one started when he was 6 months old. I did simple rhythms with him while listening to a CD and I clapped his hands or bounced him on my lap. When he was 2 yrs old, I would play a CD and loudly hit the coffee table with my hands. He loved that and came immediately to do the same thing. Often my husband, 3 grown children and possibly other relatives would copy me in the living room while we spanked the table. Other times I would just clap my hands and he and the rest of the family would copy. He absolutely loved it especially when he was the object of everyone's attention. Always the sessions would end with someone picking him up and dancing to the time of the music. Again he loved it and would ask to do it again.
When he was 3 years old, I was watching L'elisir d'Amore and when the soldiers were marching and beating their drums, that seemed like a good thing for him to do. Luckily we had a drum. I put a scarf for the neck harness and used a belt to attach it to his waist. Then we watched the soldiers marching and beating their drums. He loved that and would often ask to have that opera played at that part. With the drum often I would use one drumstick and he would use the other. I would beat some rhythm with one hand, put my other hand over his and beat the same rhythm. He got the concept and could beat the rhythm on his own.
One day I was watching a video of Schubert's "Unfinished" followed by someone else's 4th symphony. We had some chopsticks and I gave 1 to him and demonstrated how to "conduct" the orchestra. He loved it and was leading that orchestra like you wouldn't believe. At last the Schubert was finished and he collapsed on the chair tired. Then that 4th Sym. started. He was right back up there conducting that one too and went all the way to the end.
By the time he was 8 years old, we were learning Wagner's Ring. You should have seen him stomping around the house to the giants' motif. It was his favorite. We got to the middle of Die Walkure before he moved away and we couldn't do it any more. I remember the last session; Brunhilda has come to the other Valkyries and Wotan is in hot pursuit coming from the north. I had the suspense really high and also the excitement. We were having so much fun but it was the last night before he had to go away.
Through the open windows in summertime he and his 3 year younger brother were acting out the Ring as they played. Of course the older one had to be Albrecht and he made the younger one be Albrecht's brother Mime so he could boss him around. They had so much fun playing like that.
The younger one had ADHD and was really a handful to keep up with. One afternoon when he was 4, I had the Solti Hansel und Gretal video and I went slowly through the opera stopping it frequently to explain what was happening. We even danced the aria, "Brother, come and dance with me." He could see the other children who were arriving to watch the performance. It took quite a while to go all the way through the opera with him. I have found that it works very well to go very slowly the first time through the viewing. In fact, if a good enough job is done, you never have to explain it again. One of his favorite activities was to ride the witch's broom all through the house. He paid attention the entire 2 hours or however long that opera is. We cringed in fear when the milk was spilled and mother became angry and other similar activities.
The next day he came to me and asked if he could watch it again. I put it on for him but did not sit with him to watch and listen although I was in the same room. Remember, he has ADHD. He sat there unmoving the entire time like he was a statue. When I think of how much trouble he caused in preschool and elementary school (he was kicked out of day care for being so unruly and distracting to other students), it was a miracle that he was so absorbed in that opera.
I think preschool children are the place to start with classical. I also had him asking to listen to Mozart's "Clarinet Concerto." The first night by accident I ended up repeating the initial phrase over and over again and had him listening and finally singing the melody with me and the CD. That was sufficient! From then on every night he asked to hear that while he went to sleep. His older brother heard Schubert's "Unfinished" on the radio and I went through that music with him. From then on he wanted to go to sleep listening to that. Another one they both like was the ending of Beethoven's 9th. Happily the local video rental had a commercial using that melody.
Then they moved away and there was no more music like we used to do. The older one did take up playing the cello in music class in school. Unfortunately the family moved to a different school that did not teach orchestral instruments and that was the end.
Just in case anyone is concerned about The Ring and how did I handle the incest question, the answer is I never addressed it. He had far too many things to keep straight in his head (he was only 8 years old.)
Quote from: Anne on March 29, 2009, 01:24:02 AM
By the time he was 8 years old, we were learning Wagner's Ring. You should have seen him stomping around the house to the giants' motif. It was his favorite. We got to the middle of Die Walkure before he moved away and we couldn't do it any more. I remember the last session; Brunhilda has come to the other Valkyries and Wotan is in hot pursuit coming from the north. I had the suspense really high and also the excitement. We were having so much fun but it was the last night before he had to go away.
Through the open windows in summertime he and his 3 year younger brother were acting out the Ring as they played. Of course the older one had to be Albrecht and he made the younger one be Albrecht's brother Mime so he could boss him around. They had so much fun playing like that.
I am pleased to see that the next generation of Wagnerians and opera fans is on its way :D! Bless you
Anne 0:), bless you for all the hard work and tremendous success you have had with your grandsons. Not only have they started to appreciate Wagner at such a very young age but they will grow to be opera fans of the future :).
PS: with regards to the incest, you did well to steer clear of that issue for now. I totally understand I would do the same thing as well.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 28, 2009, 07:24:03 AM
I just tell them they are too stupid and ignorant to comprehend it. It may not work all the time but at least i have enough sense not to bullshit them. They tend to respect that.
How do you do it? I have never been respected for telling people they are stupid and don't comprehend something. ::)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 28, 2009, 07:24:03 AM
I just tell them they are too stupid and ignorant to comprehend it. It may not work all the time but at least i have enough sense not to bullshit them. They tend to respect that.
I can't tell you how much this post made me laugh.
That was a lovely story, Anne, thanks for sharing. :)
A pretty good friend of mine "was converted" by Shostakovich - particularly the Fifth Symphony. And this idea was corroborated by an experience I had at a chamber concert last year. These two African-American dudes came and sat in front of me, dressed in torn jeans and gangsta jackets (the ones with the goofy red cursive writing) with their hats backward and earrings. And then a musician came out onstage before the concert and said something like "We have an unfortunate announcement to make. Due to an injury to one of the performers, the Shostakovich Piano Trio No. 2 will not be performed." And then this conversation happened:
FIRST BLACK DUDE: What! No Shostakovich!
SECOND BLACK DUDE: Man! You can't go anywhere in this town where they'll play Shostakovich!
FIRST BLACK DUDE: Last week at the symphony they supposed to play Shostakovich and they canceled that too.
SECOND BLACK DUDE: It's like there's a boycott on Shostakovich or something!
ME: The other music's good too.
FIRST BLACK DUDE: Yeah, but it's not Shostakovich.
SECOND BLACK DUDE: Man ... they just don't want us to have our Shostakovich.
It was, without a doubt, the coolest conversation I heard all year.
Quote from: tanuki on March 26, 2009, 03:56:41 PM
Hi there!
Have you ever tried to get another person to like classical, even if they disliked it or thought it was *gasp* boring?
No, I consider such action disrespectful of the preferences of others.
Marv, thank you. You are so generous with your compliments. It had not been my idea to introduce The Ring to such a young child. I read it on another bulletin board where a father or grandfather was telling how well the child liked everything about The Ring. I thought maybe it would work for our family too. Happily it did. No one told the children how difficult Wagner was supposed to be or that his grandmother had taken over 6 weeks to learn to like the "bloody chunks." The most wonderful thing about young children is that they are so open to new experiences and offer no resistance. We need to get to them before the rest of the world tells them that classical music is boring, etc. etc.
Right now neither of my grandchildren listens to classical music and that's OK with me. They are busy being teenagers and listening to that kind of music. Hopefully the seed will sprout some day and they will listen on their own.
tanuki, thank you for your comment.