Now, I know that reading magazines, books, etc. on a computer (or another screen display device) has been around for a while, but I just got a RUDE awakening a few months ago; for 20+ years, I've subscribed to PC Magazine, which at the beginning of the year decided to offer just an 'electronic' edition - GOD! Not to hold one of my favorite mags in my hands anymore - is this the future! :-\
Now, I've downloaded their Zinio reader onto my office computer (which has a large, widescreen monitor) and have looked at several issues of the magazine - not too bad, but really dislike reading a LOT of information on a monitor; plus, on a smaller unit, esp. on a laptop, might not be as enjoyable (if that is the word?)!
Now, I've been reading about the Kindle device shown below - is this the future of publishing (i.e. books, magazine, etc.) to be relegated to these LCD (OLEDS in the future) displays? I'm goin' to miss turning the pages - will be interesting to see what the options will be in the next few years?
Just curious 'how' others may feel about this apparent paradigm shift in presenting 'information' to us - comments please & also what may be some of our best choices for the future? :( :)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/kindle/merch/gw/kindle2-arrived-20090209-250k._V248558428_.jpg)
Actually, I'm very intrigued by the Kindle. My real concerns involve things like:
Do I actually own the book? Can I store it somewhere and reread at will?
I don't read a lot of mainstream books. Can I get, like, those books we were talking about in the Corner the other night?
If they shrug off the physical costs of producing a book, will the savings be passed along to us? Or will it still cost a fortune even though I now possess just a bunch of 0's and 1's?
:-\
But if all these things were answered satisfactorily, I think I could love with something like this, provided the experience took advantage of the possibilities of the Kindle as a computer. You know, a little multimedia action, like being able to actually play those music samples printed in the book, for example. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2009, 05:25:55 PM
I don't read a lot of mainstream books.
Yeah, this will never begin to "replace" books until a massive and comprehensive digitisation of the back catalogue of every publisher has begun. It amazes me at just how obscure even quite notable non-fiction books can become a decade or two after their initial release. Even considering how cumbersome producing physical copies of books are, the amount of digital ones available (many pirated) are just a drop in the ocean versus how many useful ones are unavailable...
These things do however seem perfect for sites like JSTOR, unfortunately those are not available to proles like me.
Edit: other concerns I have regarding these readers is keeping my eyesight in good condition. I use computers for several hours per day, and I see reading books as a way to rest my eyes. There have been claims that newer readers are less harsh on eyesight, but I'm still happy to keep my space-wasting bookcases for now, rather than digitise everything :P
Quote from: Lethe on April 02, 2009, 05:30:45 PM
These things do however seem perfect for sites like JSTOR
Indeed! I hadn't considered this. If Kindle supported JSTOR (and was finally made available in the UK :(), this might tempt me. I'm certainly as used to reading things on a monitor as I am to reading them on paper, after ca. 16 years of continuous computer use (yes, I started early!); but I also occasionally find printouts of things like academic papers to give me a different perspective than the 'on-screen' version.
Not to mention I still can't read digital text quite as
fast as printed text, towards the look and feel of which I understand the Kindle to be optimised.
All in all, I would welcome the
diligent and
consistent digitalisation of printed 'technical' (or information/commentary, e.g. newspapers, magazines) material. I'm not as sure about things like fiction, which I (emotionally) associate with the feel of paper, etc. that I would greatly miss. :)
Quote from: Renfield on April 02, 2009, 05:56:20 PM
...... I'm certainly as used to reading things on a monitor as I am to reading them on paper, after ca. 16 years of continuous computer use (yes, I started early!); but I also occasionally find printouts of things like academic papers to give me a different perspective than the 'on-screen' version.....
Hello
Eugene - I obtained my first computer back in 1980 (Apple II+), a year before IBM released their first PC; by the mid-80s, switched to a DOS PC w/ my first hard drive; of course, text was pre-GUI; but even after all of these years, I find reading text on a monitor rather 'fatiguing', and at my age (now needing bifocals), the task is even more difficult - actually, this is more of a problem in my daily duties as a radiologist - imaging now is all 'digital' and read off monitors, i.e. I sit @ a workstation w/ four monitors in front of me; two are high-res B&W for image viewing; another serves as the 'voice recognition' software, and yet another a standard computer to connect to our HIS/Web/etc. - boy, I miss 'flipping' old films onto a viewbox! ;D
But, I feel that this will be a permanent transition to 'digital' presentation of information - mags & papers will go first (will miss goin' out to my driveway to pick up my morning papers), then what will happen to books - these may soon enter the whelm of 'collecting' vinyl - will be interesting & become nostalgia perhaps - Dave :)
Quote from: Corey on April 02, 2009, 06:58:21 PM
No!
:o
Not even if we get to keep all our previously-acquired paper volumes?
Not for me. Just went to the library today as a matter of fact. Love scrolling through the spines and finding nice surprises that I never knew existed. Also we still get two newspapers. Nothing like pulling a chair up next to a sunny window with a cup of coffee and doing the NY Times crossword. Not against the new technology, but it is just not for me. Too attached to the tactile of books and the sound of turning a page, measuring how long a chapter might be, and even the sound of shutting a book upon completion.
In case of CDs and booklets, I don't need them, I want their digital equivalents. But books? I need books. So the answer on your question is big, red and has 2 letters.
Quote from: Bogey on April 02, 2009, 07:39:01 PM
Not for me. Just went to the library today as a matter of fact. Love scrolling through the spines and finding nice surprises that I never knew existed. Also we still get two newspapers. Nothing like pulling a chair up next to a sunny window with a cup of coffee and doing the NY Times crossword. Not against the new technology, but it is just not for me. Too attached to the tactile of books and the sound of turning a page, measuring how long a chapter might be, and even the sound of shutting a book upon completion.
Excellent post. I would add to the pleasures of a real book the smell of it when it's brand new. :)
Quote from: Corey on April 02, 2009, 06:58:21 PM
No!
Thirded. :)
Quote from: Corey on April 02, 2009, 06:58:21 PM
No!
Fourthed
We are getting irrational with our technology. Pretty soon we'll be eating virtual food.
Quote from: Florestan on April 03, 2009, 02:20:48 AM
I would add to the pleasures of a real book the smell of it when it's brand new. :)
Don't sniff the books from the library. :-X
Not at that price. >:(
Well on a short 'lunch' break in the office and decided to checkout the Zinio Website (http://www.zinio.com/gncmain?cat=-1) - take a look at not only the HUGE number of magazines obtainable online, but also the LOW pricing - I can see some of the other magazines that I subscribe to going the same route as PC Magazine - not sure that the consumer will have much of a choice! :-\
A big YES here.
I've been using Sony Reader for the last year, and haven't looked back. E-readers are expensive, sure, but so are i-pods. However, when you compare 99c songs to $16-17 CD albums, if you are an avid listener (reader) the thing pays off in a very short time. All non-copyright books are already available for free downloads, and that includes many more books than you would like to read in your life time.
I have not owned a Kindle, but Sony makes the better looking device that offers more format options. Whichever one you buy, the screens on those machines are amazing. The sheer amount of books you can carry with you (although it doesn't have the same immediate advantage of carrying your whole music collection) is a big advantage. Much less clutter at home, and of course, they are -in a way, more organic and definitely much more earth friendly.
So what you have is a technologically better medium, cheaper (or free) price, unlimited storage capacity and this all when you are not contributing to the cutting down of the trees. What more do you want? The feeling and the smell of paper on your fingers? :-\
I can't think of a future where everything has gone digital but we are still carrying paper books. It just doesn't make sense >:D
Quote from: Lethe on April 02, 2009, 05:30:45 PM
Edit: other concerns I have regarding these readers is keeping my eyesight in good condition. I use computers for several hours per day, and I see reading books as a way to rest my eyes. There have been claims that newer readers are less harsh on eyesight, but I'm still happy to keep my space-wasting bookcases for now, rather than digitise everything :P
This would be one of my main concerns too. Every year it seems the lenses on my specs need replacing for stronger ones and I suspect it has much to do with the 7 hours i'm tied to a computer for a job [and the 2 or 3 hours on top of that I spend in front of this screen of my own choosing!]. Reading my books on the commute and before bed is precious time my eyes aren't being bathed in white light.
Picture this dystopian future: mankind picked off one by one by predators they didn't see coming until they were 40cm away.
Quote from: Florestan on April 03, 2009, 02:20:48 AM
I would add to the pleasures of a real book the smell of it when it's brand new. :)
Oh yes! 0:)
Quote from: Benji on April 03, 2009, 10:39:19 AM
This would be one of my main concerns too. Every year it seems the lenses on my specs need replacing for stronger ones and I suspect it has much to do with the 7 hours i'm tied to a computer for a job [and the 2 or 3 hours on top of that I spend in front of this screen of my own choosing!]. Reading my books on the commute and before bed is precious time my eyes aren't being bathed in white light.
Not to worry Benji, we can digitally zap your eyes with this laser treatment that will fix your eyesight, so you can continue looking at digital devices 24/7.
Digital, digital, digital.........what else can we make digital........I'm so hyper on digital. I love my digital, digital, digital, digital....devices.....VICES!!!!!!!!!!! Must have a digital car so I can watch high definition digital TV in my car!!!!! :P
::)
Quote from: Benji on April 03, 2009, 10:39:19 AM
This would be one of my main concerns too. Every year it seems the lenses on my specs need replacing for stronger ones and I suspect it has much to do with the 7 hours i'm tied to a computer for a job [and the 2 or 3 hours on top of that I spend in front of this screen of my own choosing!]. Reading my books on the commute and before bed is precious time my eyes aren't being bathed in white light.
e-ink is no different than paper. Reading on the computer screen or ipods for extended periods of time is indeed not the best idea, but these devices are something else completely. I would say even easier on the eyes than books that are printed on white paper.
Quote from: Florestan on Today at 02:20:48 AM
QuoteI would add to the pleasures of a real book the smell of it when it's brand new.
I am sure that can be digitized as well >:D
Quote from: orbital on April 03, 2009, 10:55:09 AM
e-ink is no different than paper. Reading on the computer screen or ipods for extended periods of time is indeed not the best idea, but these devices are something else completely. I would say even easier on the eyes than books that are printed on white paper.
Quote from: Florestan on Today at 02:20:48 AMI am sure that can be digitized as well >:D
Sounds like they've got it all worked out!
Providing we are afforded the luxury of uninterrupted technological development (i.e. we aren't reduced to the stone age by war/plague etc any time soon) I'm sure the tide is in favour of continued digitisisation (did I make that up, doesn't sound right?). I suppose we can eventually look forward to having music and words beamed digitally and directly into our conciousness and we will lose the need for eyes and ears.
I for one, will be writing down anything I think is important. If the instructions to my water purifier and emergency generator come in digital format you can bet I'll be scribbling then down on paper when the bombs star falling. And sorry I can't let you in my bomb shelter, the digital lock broke you see. 0:)
Quote from: Benji on April 03, 2009, 11:08:30 AM
Sounds like they've got it all worked out!
Providing we are afforded the luxury of uninterrupted technological development (i.e. we aren't reduced to the stone age by war/plague etc any time soon) I'm sure the tide is in favour of continued digitisisation (did I make that up, doesn't sound right?). I suppose we can eventually look forward to having music and words beamed digitally and directly into our conciousness and we will lose the need for eyes and ears.
This is something else. The experience factor may not be that easy to duplicate. The thing is I am getting the same experience from reading on Sony as you are from a physical book. My eyes are following letters line after line, and if it is a book I am enjoying I can't wait to turn the page (you flip the page with your finger... well I do the same too, on the PRS 700 8) ).
The thing is there is no convenient place to stop for technology. It is useless, and ultimately pointless to try to stand against it as long as it gives you the same experience, just because it is 'digital'. I have a feeling that people are basically arguing about values more than the medium. The medium does nothing to hurt you. It does not hurt your eyes, it does not hurt your wallet, and best of all it creates a way for more and more authors to publish their books more easily.
Same thing with music. Easier to manage, easier to acquire and an easier way for newcomers to join the pool of musicians.
I am curious as to why people are not taking the same negative stance on digital music. Why is that acceptable while books are not? Many people
had to feel the vinyl in their hands, take the needle, place it on the record then press play. Not anymore. It is surely not missed en masse.
Quote
I for one, will be writing down anything I think is important. If the instructions to my water purifier and emergency generator come in digital format you can bet I'll be scribbling then down on paper when the bombs star falling. And sorry I can't let you in my bomb shelter, the digital lock broke you see. 0:)
I am not a digital crazy person :o I listen to classical music ;D
But remember, when the time comes the first ones to be aware of the bombs about to fall may be those who have access to online news services 8)
Quote from: orbital on April 03, 2009, 11:27:48 AM
This is something else. The experience factor may not be that easy to duplicate. The thing is I am getting the same experience from reading on Sony as you are from a physical book. My eyes are following letters line after line, and if it is a book I am enjoying I can't wait to turn the page (you flip the page with your finger... well I do the same too, on the PRS 700 8) ).
The thing is there is no convenient place to stop for technology. It is useless, and ultimately pointless to try to stand against it as long as it gives you the same experience, just because it is 'digital'. I have a feeling that people are basically arguing about values more than the medium. The medium does nothing to hurt you. It does not hurt your eyes, it does not hurt your wallet, and best of all it creates a way for more and more authors to publish their books more easily.
Same thing with music. Easier to manage, easier to acquire and an easier way for newcomers to join the pool of musicians.
I am curious as to why people are not taking the same negative stance on digital music. Why is that acceptable while books are not? Many people had to feel the vinyl in their hands, take the needle, place it on the record then press play. Not anymore. It is surely not missed en masse.
I'm sure you're right. It will be the experience I miss most. Going in to a book seller, looking at the funky covers, reading the back, sitting in a comfy chair and reading a few pages, buying it and feeling smug that I bought a book, putting it in its place according to its size on my bookshelf (ok so digital will help suppress the OCD in me), the joy of someone seeing a book on my shelf that takes their interest and which I can lend to them and then discuss. And the smell of course. It may be silly, but it is those stupid little things that I would miss.
I take your point about there being less resistance to digital music, but there is much less weight of history behind recorded music, and even then as much as I use a service such as Napster, if there was a physical shop that had the same range and choice there would be no contest.
So, I imagine that deep down most people gripes with our precious information going digital is that we lose those tactile sensations that connect us somehow to the medium, and also the issue of having some
thing tangible to show for our money.
And still, I feel that digital will inevitably win as the technologies become more accepted amongst the future generations. I think that's a shame, but you can't fight progress, right?!
QuoteI am not a digital crazy person :o I listen to classical music ;D
But remember, when the time comes the first ones to be aware of the bombs about to fall may be those who have access to online news services 8)
Touché. Plus you can duck and cover under your desk, whilst my book and I will be toast sitting out in the open 8) Maybe I should re-think...
Quote from: Benji on April 03, 2009, 11:51:16 AM
I think that's a shame, but you can't fight progress, right?!
No you can't :-\
You can... for a while, but you know all along that it is a losing battle. But again, I am of the opinion that progress is inherently good.
Is it still called "progress"? :-X
I think I'm going to build a giant secret labyrinth of all the books that everyone has thrown away. If the Big One comes, civilization will live on because of me. ;D
Quote from: Corey on April 03, 2009, 12:14:54 PM
I think I'm going to build a giant secret labyrinth of all the books that everyone has thrown away.
You mean the ones Oprah Winfrey recommends? 0:)
Quote from: Corey on April 03, 2009, 12:14:54 PM
I think I'm going to build a giant secret labyrinth of all the books that everyone has thrown away. If the Big One comes, civilization will live on because of me. ;D
Gee, that sounds familiar. ;D
Quote from: Benji on April 03, 2009, 12:16:23 PM
You mean the ones Oprah Winfrey recommends? 0:)
Hey, some of them happen to be good. It's not the writers' fault their publishers decided to plaster her name all over the covers.
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 03, 2009, 12:16:34 PM
Gee, that sounds familiar. ;D
Yes, you are onto something my young novitiate. ;)
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 03, 2009, 12:07:33 PM
Is it still called "progress"? :-X
Let's compare :P
Paper Books...................
EBooksUses Paper from trees......Uses electrodes that causes virtually no harm to nature
Takes Storage Space.......Takes virtually no space
More Expensive...............Cheaper (often free legally)
Costs $$$ to publish........Costs nothing to publish
Easy on the eyes...........Easy on the eyes (plus comes in multiple text sizes)
Gets crumpled
when bookmarked.........As many deletable bookmarks as you want
Smells :D......................Doesn't currently offer smell option
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 03, 2009, 12:07:33 PM
Is it still called "progress"? :-X
Only if it comes with a plug-in for Wii. I need my exercise.
Quote from: orbital on April 03, 2009, 12:28:59 PM
Let's compare :P
Paper Books...................EBooks
Uses Paper from trees......Uses electrodes that causes virtually no harm to nature
Takes Storage Space.......Takes virtually no space
More Expensive...............Cheaper (often free legally)
Costs $$$ to publish........Costs nothing to publish
Easy on the eyes...........Easy on the eyes (plus comes in multiple text sizes)
Gets crumpled
when bookmarked.........As many deletable bookmarks as you want
Smells :D......................Doesn't currently offer smell option
Yet I am not convinced. 0:)
My wife and I used to have cell phones. We don't anymore, for the last two years. Don't miss them at all.
So, go ahead with your "must have" latest technologies. Talk on your cell while driving, as you develop brain tumours the size of blackberries. :D
Quote from: Corey on April 03, 2009, 12:14:54 PM
I think I'm going to build a giant secret labyrinth of all the books that everyone has thrown away. If the Big One comes, civilization will live on because of me. ;D
" The best laid plans of mice and men and Corey Bemis, the small man in the glasses who wanted nothing but time. Corey Bemis, now just a part of a smashed landscape, just a piece of the rubble, just a fragment of what man has deeded to himself. Mr. Corey Bemis in the Twilight Zone. "
Quote from: orbital on April 03, 2009, 12:28:59 PM
Let's compare :P
Paper Books...................EBooks.....................
Smells :D......................Doesn't currently offer smell option
Orbital - well, I agree that these 'digital readers' are likely goin' to be a part of our 'near' future - I'm already reviewing the options (will not be a quick purchase, I still need to get a HDTV for my den! ;D).
Today in the office, I look at a third issue of
PC Magazine (the origin of this thread) - on a widescreen monitor & in color, the experience is not bad at all; the pages flip easily, zooming is done quickly if needed, and the color maintains the look of the magazine; so, one of my requirements if I'm to use such a 'digitial reader' for a number of options (i.e. books, magazines, PDF files, etc.), is that I would definitely want color and a larger viewing area than seems to be offered by the current producers; but of course all of this will come w/ time and likely quickly, and at a much reduced price - I can wait a while!
Now, your comparison above concerning 'smell' is something that I've loved about books since childhood - and despite Dave's warning - I have smelled a lot of library books in the past (mostly in my younger years) and am still alive! :D
There was an interest in the concept of Smell-O-Vision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smell-o-vision) in the past, and I remember visiting a museum in Baltimore (next to the Aquarium) which I'm not sure is still open, but there was a theater that combined all of the human senses, including injecting various aromas into the atmosphere as one viewed & listened to the visual production (can't even remember what was showing & the smells were rather 'sickening' IIRC) - but I would miss the 'smell' of a book. :)
Quote from: Szykniej on April 03, 2009, 01:40:36 PM
" The best laid plans of mice and men and Corey Bemis, the small man in the glasses who wanted nothing but time. Corey Bemis, now just a part of a smashed landscape, just a piece of the rubble, just a fragment of what man has deeded to himself. Mr. Corey Bemis in the Twilight Zone. "
;D Thankfully I have 20/20 vision.
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 03, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
Yet I am not convinced. 0:)
But the environment Dave, the environment! :'(
Quote from: ChamberNut on April 03, 2009, 12:43:16 PM
My wife and I used to have cell phones. We don't anymore, for the last two years. Don't miss them at all.
I don't like cell phones myself. I don't want to be reachable all the time >:(
But I do use cordless touch key phones rather than the turn dial ones, because they are more convenient :)
Quote from: SonicMan on April 03, 2009, 03:29:08 PM
Orbital -
Now, your comparison above concerning 'smell' is something that I've loved about books since childhood - and despite Dave's warning - I have smelled a lot of library books in the past (mostly in my younger years) and am still alive! :D
I think Benji was right in saying that printed books have a much longer cultural history, thus the more intense resistance against a new format.
With both books and music what interests me is the material. I don't care about the packaging, the liner notes, the CD covers, etc. Therefore the switch was very easy for me :)
Most people have this peculiar thing about books. They have a hard time lending them or getting rid of them. I don't form such attachments to either books or CDs. I gave away/sold more than 700 books (and about that many CDs) when I was moving and I don't miss them at all. Particularly with books once you are done reading them chances for returning back to them are very slim. With e-books you can return to whichever book you want instantly.
If you will soon be in the market for an e-book reader, there is this one coming out that will have dual screens so it will resemble paper books even more. I think it is made by i-river.
OrbitalI am not against the digital books technology as such. If some people, like you, feel happy and at ease with it, fine, let them have their way.
I just don't want it. I'm with Benji, Corey, Bogey, Dave and others all the way: going to a bookshop and spending a whole hour there even if eventually I don't buy anything; my library, where each book is an extension of my own self and added something valuable to my mind, feelings and life, and where I know exactly where to find this or that book that I've already read two or three times; these are experiences that are part and parcel of my personality and giving them away for the sake of a "progress" that I don't believe in or of a technological utopia that I abhor (the utopia, that is, not the technology itself) would be like giving away part of my "life, liberty and property".
As for ecological concerns, the recycled paper has been around for many years. And anyway, the primary concern should be the myriad newspapers that are being printed daily around the world and that are committed only to vulgarity, stupidity, and dumbing down people, not a few thousand pieces of "Crime and Punishment" being printed once in a decade, if at all.
So, use happily your Sony Reader --- but let me happily read my books as well.
Quote from: orbital on April 03, 2009, 09:00:35 AM
I can't think of a future where everything has gone digital but we are still carrying paper books. It just doesn't make sense >:D
What makes sense --- a lot of sense --- is letting each people decide what they want and what they don't want. The mere fact that something
can be done --- e.g., the digitalization of all books and the downright prohibition of all traditional books, using ecological or economical rationales --- doesn't mean
it has to be done.
I like books. I like CDs and records.
The idea of carrying around my whole library or CD collection in some small hand-held device strikes me as faintly repulsive. It took me years to acquire all those units, and I want to see them and feel them. They are special.
I can see some use for portable digital media. Namely, they would be useful for things that I didn't want to keep around permanently, like topical books and pop songs. But I would never want to have War and Peace or the Beethoven quartets in such an ephemeral form.
Another plus: if you're not a big decorator, books and CDs provide some automatic decoration.
Quote from: Florestan on April 04, 2009, 09:05:58 AM
I just don't want it. I'm with Benji, Corey, Bogey, Dave and others all the way: going to a bookshop and spending a whole hour there even if eventually I don't buy anything; my library, where each book is an extension of my own self and added something valuable to my mind, feelings and life, and where I know exactly where to find this or that book that I've already read two or three times; these are experiences that are part and parcel of my personality and giving them away for the sake of a "progress" that I don't believe in or of a technological utopia that I abhor (the utopia, that is, not the technology itself) would be like giving away part of my "life, liberty and property".
Very well said.
I feel that physical books, especially older books, have a "presence" that mere words lack. There is just something pleasing about looking at, picking up and cracking open my copy of
a la recherche de temps perdu (
Remembrance of Things Past in my edition) from the 1930s. It has a history.
Quote from: Corey on April 04, 2009, 06:57:25 PM
It has a history.
Especially when one of the previous owners have decided to write little notes in the margin :D I used to be annoyed when I got secondhand books like that, but now I find them cute.
Quote from: Florestan on April 04, 2009, 09:05:58 AM
Orbital
I am not against the digital books technology as such. If some people, like you, feel happy and at ease with it, fine, let them have their way.
I just don't want it. I'm with Benji, Corey, Bogey, Dave and others all the way: going to a bookshop and spending a whole hour there even if eventually I don't buy anything; my library, where each book is an extension of my own self and added something valuable to my mind, feelings and life, and where I know exactly where to find this or that book that I've already read two or three times; these are experiences that are part and parcel of my personality and giving them away for the sake of a "progress" that I don't believe in or of a technological utopia that I abhor (the utopia, that is, not the technology itself) would be like giving away part of my "life, liberty and property".
It is not for the sake of progress that I am using an electronic device. I am not using it because it is trendy, nor because it is the way books should be read. It is simply because electronic readers are more convenient and they deliver the content more efficiently, and as I said content is all that I am looking to receive from a book -nothing else.
I don't think anyone will force you or others here to give up paper books. But just as the CD shops are being closed left and right, bookstores will eventually go the same way. It is very easy to kill the cultural associations with books. It only takes one generation. Remember letters written in ink?
Quote
As for ecological concerns, the recycled paper has been around for many years. And anyway, the primary concern should be the myriad newspapers that are being printed daily around the world and that are committed only to vulgarity, stupidity, and dumbing down people, not a few thousand pieces of "Crime and Punishment" being printed once in a decade, if at all.
We all hear these things, but allow me to paste some little recent information:
Over the past three years the book industry needed three to four million tons of paper which translates to at least 60 million trees worldwide. The paper industry ranks number four in carbon dioxide emissions among manufacturing industries.According to the same article Random House uses only 3% recycled paper. They have plans to increase it by tenfold which will still be below the 37% average.
And you know for every C&P published, there are thousands of other titles printed worldwide. Surely you cannot suggest that only literally inferior works should go electronic >:D
Quote
So, use happily your Sony Reader --- but let me happily read my books as well.
What makes sense --- a lot of sense --- is letting each people decide what they want and what they don't want. The mere fact that something can be done --- e.g., the digitalization of all books and the downright prohibition of all traditional books, using ecological or economical rationales --- doesn't mean it has to be done.
Freedom of choice (actually freedom in general) is the only singular value that I can comfortably die for. So of course everyone should do as they please when it comes to books, music... all things in life. It is just that romantic relationships to books and other material goods is not something I have ever possessed. I never took good care of my books when I had them. For me, they were only for reading, a vehicle so to speak. If another vehicle comes up that is better in almost every way in delivering what it is supposed to, I will naturally switch to that. That is not to say everyone else should of course. However I believe the future does not hold much space for books or libraries :-\
Quote from: Spitvalve on April 04, 2009, 10:08:33 AM
I like books. I like CDs and records.
The idea of carrying around my whole library or CD collection in some small hand-held device strikes me as faintly repulsive. It took me years to acquire all those units, and I want to see them and feel them. They are special.
I can see some use for portable digital media. Namely, they would be useful for things that I didn't want to keep around permanently, like topical books and pop songs. But I would never want to have War and Peace or the Beethoven quartets in such an ephemeral form.
IF you say they are special because of the way they are packaged rather than what they contain, I can't agree with you :(
You are speaking as if Beethoven wrote those quartets to be put on Compact Discs. He wrote them to be heard -and only live at that. Are you saying that a round shiny plastic disc is more in the spirit of Beethoven than a digital file?
Quote from: Corey on April 04, 2009, 06:57:25 PM
Very well said.
I feel that physical books, especially older books, have a "presence" that mere words lack. There is just something pleasing about looking at, picking up and cracking open my copy of a la recherche de temps perdu (Remembrance of Things Past in my edition) from the 1930s. It has a history.
I am an android I guess :P
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
You are speaking as if Beethoven wrote those quartets to be put on Compact Discs. He wrote them to be heard -and only live at that. Are you saying that a round shiny plastic disc is more in the spirit of Beethoven than a digital file?
No, I am saying that, if I can't hear them live, I like those quartets to be presented in the form of a physical object (doesn't have to be a CD, could be a vinyl disc), with certain peculiarities that are characteristic of such objects (liner notes written on paper, cover art, photos).
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
It is very easy to kill the cultural associations with books. It only takes one generation.
Are you implying that the coming of a
Fahrenheit 451-style society is unavoidable?
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AMRemember letters written in ink?
These are the only ones I ever wrote. ;D
BTW, what do you make of handwriting in the future? Would it disappear, too?
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
of course everyone should do as they please when it comes to books, music... all things in life.
We are in perfect agreement then. 0:)
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AMIt is just that romantic relationships to books and other material goods is not something I have ever possessed.
I think that's the fundamental difference between you and us and you put it very well. It is indeed a romance.
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
I believe the future does not hold much space for books or libraries :-\
This boils down to saying that future doesn't hold much space for people like me or others here. :D
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
I am an android I guess :P
Do you ever dream of electric sheep? :D
Quote from: Spitvalve on April 05, 2009, 02:58:15 AM
No, I am saying that, if I can't hear them live, I like those quartets to be presented in the form of a physical object (doesn't have to be a CD, could be a vinyl disc), with certain peculiarities that are characteristic of such objects (liner notes written on paper, cover art, photos).
OK I see. You mean an object representing the music it contains. Something to identify it with perhaps. But I'd still say a data file which represents music in its simplest, intangible form is more in its spirit.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2009, 03:22:39 AM
Are you implying that the coming of a Fahrenheit 451-style society is unavoidable?
I have not read the book :-[ But I understand what you mean. What is unavoidable is the advance of technology and the place it occupies in our lives. Also that change and impermanence are the only things permenant. They are the only two things that are worth clinging to IMO. This must have read like a cyber-punk-zen philosophy ::)
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These are the only ones I ever wrote. ;D
BTW, what do you make of handwriting in the future? Would it disappear, too?
You have my kudos if you are still writing letters and sending them via post Florestan :-* My written communications have been through computers exclusively whether they be emails or PMs (or posts) for the last 7-8 years >:D
Handwriting will probably be obsolete at one point. Don't you think so as well?
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I think that's the fundamental difference between you and us and you put it very well. It is indeed a romance.
Hey, I am a Chopin guy! :D :D
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This boils down to saying that future doesn't hold much space for people like me or others here. :D
No. If I am hearing you correctly, if ten years ago a friend of yours had told you that, in ten years you will do a good deal of your classical music discussions in a virtual environment with people most of whom you will never meet in person, you'd probably say the same thing to him/her.
I think the single most amazing peculiarity of the human kind is their propensity to adjust.
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Do you ever dream of electric sheep? :D
;D I've been seeing weird dreams lately though ::) They invariably involve a sea voyage and people I used to know from long ago ::)
I am in the same camp with those who crave the tactile, aromatic, and aesthetic experience books provide. I grieve for the loss of the numerous used bookstores that no longer exist near my home. But ...
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
It is very easy to kill the cultural associations with books. It only takes one generation. Remember letters written in ink?
... is absolutely correct. My teenage son, who is very into his own music, doesn't own a CD anymore. All of his music is downloaded, and he would not miss CDs or books in print if they were gone.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2009, 03:22:39 AM
Are you implying that the coming of a Fahrenheit 451-style society is unavoidable?
Not the same thing. The thoughts and ideas found in books will not disappear. They will just be in a different format.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2009, 03:22:39 AM
BTW, what do you make of handwriting in the future? Would it disappear, too?
I've noticed that the quality of my handwriting, which was never great but was at least legible, has gone way downhill. Use it or lose it applies!
Quote from: Szykniej on April 05, 2009, 07:24:06 AM
I am in the same camp with those who crave the tactile, aromatic, and aesthetic experience books provide. I grieve for the loss of the numerous used bookstores that no longer exist near my home................
I love this aspect of books, esp. those that are well made (or reproduced) using the older techniques - about 30 yrs ago, I subscribed to a medical book series that reproduced some of the 'classics' (many going back centuires, such as Harvey's treatise on the heart & circulation) - stopped after acquiring about 16 (although more were produced) - the shelf of these books is in a cadenza in our living room (shown below) - just adore handling (and smelling) these tomes - covers are tooled leather painted in gold & pages are acid-free thick paper (have not yellowed a bit in 3 decades!) w/ gold edges; two of my favorites are
William Osler's The Principles & Practice of Medicine &
Rudolph Virchow's Cellular Pathology, both originally published in the 19th century - but a lost art, I'm afraid - :-\
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/505809975_zGwn5-M.jpg)
OK, I'm convinced. If I can comfortably read on one of these then I'm all for it. That's a big if, but if I can comfortably read several hundred pages at home, at work and on the bus and subway, then I'm all for it and I'll exchange books for downloads just like I've done with music and started to do with video. Books are sometimes physically attractive, but that isn't very important.
Quote from: drogulus on April 05, 2009, 11:18:26 AM
OK, I'm convinced. If I can comfortably read on one of these then I'm all for it. That's a big if, but if I can comfortably read several hundred pages at home, at work and on the bus and subway, then I'm all for it and I'll exchange books for downloads just like I've done with music and started to do with video. Books are sometimes physically attractive, but that isn't very important.
I knew i could count on you drogulus >:D
Believe me you can read them just as easily as books. It's quite an amazing technology. One pitfall that no one has brought forward ;D is the need to recharge (therefore not being a deserted island option). But one full charge is good for a few thousand pages. It is my understanding that these devices do not use any power when a page is displayed. They only need power to refresh (i.e turn) the page.
Where do I sign up? It's not a first-born child kind of thing, is it?
This display is not as attractive as Dave's, but most of the books on these shelves are field guides and reference manuals. How do the electronic devices perform in dealing with illustrations, diagrams, and photos?
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 01:52:46 AM
I am an android I guess :P
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z245/tapiola/Feature_BladeRunner2-big.jpg)
I-readers are like any other machine: they're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit it's not my problem.
Quote from: orbital on April 03, 2009, 09:00:35 AM
I've been using Sony Reader for the last year, and haven't looked back. [...]
I'm intrigued. How do these things work? Are they something like iPods, do you have a program to sincronize it with your computer? What formats can the reader ...um... read?
Quote from: Szykniej on April 05, 2009, 12:06:48 PM
This display is not as attractive as Dave's, but most of the books on these shelves are field guides and reference manuals. How do the electronic devices perform in dealing with illustrations, diagrams, and photos?
The displays are black and white, so color photos are not an option. I don't know if you can find all those guides and manuals in electronic format. But the Sony Reader can display pdf files with photos, diagrams just as you see them on your computer (in b&w alas). In pdf and Sony document formats the index pages are generally clickable, so you can skip to a topic/chapter directly from the index page.
Quote from: tanuki on April 05, 2009, 03:24:23 PM
I'm intrigued. How do these things work? Are they something like iPods, do you have a program to sincronize it with your computer? What formats can the reader ...um... read?
I don't know about Kindle, but Sony reads txt, doc, rtf, pdf and sony ebook formats. There are three text sizes that you can switch in between. The Sony format has a comfortable text size that you can read in the 'small text' option. For doc files, I generally format the document to 16pt fonts which gives a standard paper book size on screen when viewed in small text.
Kindle, AFAIK, reads some non-proprietary formats as well but Amazon charges you for each pdf file you want to put in there for some reason.
There is a software that the device comes with. It works like i-tunes. You add the documents to your library and then either sync your library with the Reader or you can choose which ones to copy to device. But when you connect it to your computer, Reader appears like a storage device and you can drag and drop files directly on there as well. I generally prefer to drag and drop because if you copy a document to Reader via sync, you can only delete it by removing the file from your library and resynching.
It plays mp3 files too, so you can listen to music while reading. However for that you might want to get a SD card for storage as Reader's internal memory, if I'm not mistaken, is 256MB.
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
I have not read the book :-[ But I understand what you mean. What is unavoidable is the advance of technology and the place it occupies in our lives. Also that change and impermanence are the only things permenant. They are the only two things that are worth clinging to IMO. This must have read like a cyber-punk-zen philosophy ::)
It's obvious that the advance of technology doesn't take into account anything but itself; to me it looks like a force unleashed by an apprentice sorcerer whose master is nowhere to be found. But I summarized my own philosophy in respect with this above: if something can be done, this doesn't mean it must be done. I am convinced that, absent a major paradigm shift, in one hundred years time there will be nothing left on Earth from what we know today as "human feelings and emotions". My only consolation is that I will not witness that.
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
You have my kudos if you are still writing letters and sending them via post Florestan :-* My written communications have been through computers exclusively whether they be emails or PMs (or posts) for the last 7-8 years >:D
Let me clarify: I stoped writing letters and sending them via post a long time ago, too. But what replaced them are not
letters; they are
electronic mails,
SMS or
PMs. If you could compare the content and form of my letters of yore with the content and form with my e-mails, SMS or PMs the difference would be striking, I assure you. :)
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
Handwriting will probably be obsolete at one point. Don't you think so as well?
Oh yes, I
fear so as well. ;D
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
No. If I am hearing you correctly, if ten years ago a friend of yours had told you that, in ten years you will do a good deal of your classical music discussions in a virtual environment with people most of whom you will never meet in person, you'd probably say the same thing to him/her.
No. It's a different thing altogether. I am here
by my own choice and I can drop the whole thing anytime if I feel like it, like I did in the past and stayed away from GMG for months. Besides, I enjoy it. If in my own life span libraries and books will disappear, it won't left me any choice and I certainly won't enjoy it. The former is a case of freedom, the latter a case of tyranny (
progressive and
technological, to be sure, but tyrannny nevertheless --- I dare say, worse than any other in the past, because there will be no escape whatsoever from it: the extension of the old tyrannies was limited in space and time; the one in the making will know of no such limitations)
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
Hey, I am a Chopin guy! :D :D
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 04:44:07 AM
;D I've been seeing weird dreams lately though ::) They invariably involve a sea voyage and people I used to know from long ago ::)
See? Your human self tries to expel the android in you. ;D
Quote from: Szykniej on April 05, 2009, 07:24:06 AM
Not the same thing. The thoughts and ideas found in books will not disappear. They will just be in a different format.
That's an apt description of the
Fahrenheit 451 society. :D
Quote from: Szykniej on April 05, 2009, 07:24:06 AM
I've noticed that the quality of my handwriting, which was never great but was at least legible, has gone way downhill. Use it or lose it applies!
Sure.
Quote from: Florestan on April 06, 2009, 12:12:34 AM
It's obvious that the advance of technology doesn't take into account anything but itself; to me it looks like a force unleashed by an apprentice sorcerer whose master is nowhere to be found. But I summarized my own philosophy in respect with this above: if something can be done, this doesn't mean it must be done. I am convinced that, absent a major paradigm shift, in one hundred years time there will be nothing left on Earth from what we know today as "human feelings and emotions". My only consolation is that I will not witness that.
We are all children of our own circumstances. When you look at the future through a time telescope the future you describe is indeed frightening, because you are looking at it from today's circumstance. In reality human feelings and emotions will only disappear when (and if) they become completely obsolete. And when (and again if) such a time comes, it will not be for the worse. It may sound worse when you think about it now, but if the time comes it will be for the better when you live through that period or it simply won't happen at all.
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Let me clarify: I stoped writing letters and sending them via post a long time ago, too. But what replaced them are not letters; they are electronic mails, SMS or PMs. If you could compare the content and form of my letters of yore with the content and form with my e-mails, SMS or PMs the difference would be striking, I assure you. :)
OK, so your need to express that content in that form has either died down or it has diminished to such low levels that you don't bother to write and send them anymore. How is that inherently bad except that the nostalgia may give you a feeling of knot in the gut?
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No. It's a different thing altogether. I am here by my own choice and I can drop the whole thing anytime if I feel like it, like I did in the past and stayed away from GMG for months. Besides, I enjoy it. If in my own life span libraries and books will disappear, it won't left me any choice and I certainly won't enjoy it. The former is a case of freedom, the latter a case of tyranny (progressive and technological, to be sure, but tyrannny nevertheless --- I dare say, worse than any other in the past, because there will be no escape whatsoever from it: the extension of the old tyrannies was limited in space and time; the one in the making will know of no such limitations)
But my question is, how would you react ten years ago? Would you say "Sure, I'll try that when the time comes. It sounds like fun." or "I certainly won't enjoy it" ?
There is nothing about technology that gives me a feeling of tyranny. It is not a separate organism from everything else in the world. Music is changing, so is literature, so is painting, so are buildings, what we wear, what we drive, how we travel, how we interact... how we read is only a very small part of this gradual shift. What does not make sense is trying to keep one aspect apart from everything else.
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See? Your human self tries to expel the android in you. ;D
:D
- My brain calculates that as a result of having re-read Salinger's Teddy very recently, my brainwaves recall people associated with the first time I had read the story and mingle them together in this fashion ;D ;D
- My brain is in complete awe of Chopin and ceases to compute when the first chord of the Barcarolle echoes through the eardrum :o :o
Quote from: orbital on April 05, 2009, 09:46:44 PM
I don't know about Kindle, but Sony reads txt, doc, rtf, pdf and sony ebook formats. [...]
Sounds very interesting! I like reading books in foreign languages (English, German), which are impossible to find in local bookstores. Ordering online is a hassle for me, and I have to wait about two months for a single book to arrive from Amazon. Not to mention that the shipment is sometimes MORE EXPENSIVE than the book itself! This way sounds much more convenient.
However, the steep price of the device kind of puts me off. 300$, without taxes and shipment? Hm...
Quote from: tanuki on April 06, 2009, 07:08:57 AM
Sounds very interesting! I like reading books in foreign languages (English, German), which are impossible to find in local bookstores. Ordering online is a hassle for me, and I have to wait about two months for a single book to arrive from Amazon. Not to mention that the shipment is sometimes MORE EXPENSIVE than the book itself! This way sounds much more convenient.
However, the steep price of the device kind of puts me off. 300$, without taxes and shipment? Hm...
Sony Reader comes with 100 e-books of your choice. The free selection is mostly limited to classics, but some of them (or their English translations) are still under copyright so they are not giving away something that can already be legally had for free. It is an initial investment that pays off pretty quickly if you are an avid reader IMO.
Quote from: Szykniej on April 05, 2009, 12:06:48 PM
This display is not as attractive as Dave's, but most of the books on these shelves are field guides and reference manuals. How do the electronic devices perform in dealing with illustrations, diagrams, and photos?
Just seeing this picture is a good enough explanation for why I'd want to be able to digitalize all of my books and music.
Quote from: orbital on April 06, 2009, 06:05:20 AM
Music is changing, so is literature, so is painting, so are buildings, what we wear, what we drive, how we travel, how we interact...
Obviously. But do you automatically equate "change" with "improvement"? Have you never felt or thought that there are changes for worse, rather than for better? Do you accept unconditionally each and every change that occurs?
I love the idea of e-books. So does my wife. She gets a thrashy novel from the library, and then it goes back - so no clutter around our house. But when she BUYS such books (which, let's face it, she's only going to read once), we've got to find yet more storage space in a house that already has too little. Bring on the digital, say I.
(Mind you, I prefer audio books ... but that's because I read rather slowly.)
FK
Quote from: Florestan on April 06, 2009, 11:10:20 PM
Obviously. But do you automatically equate "change" with "improvement"? Have you never felt or thought that there are changes for worse, rather than for better? Do you accept unconditionally each and every change that occurs?
I do equate them as long as change comes gradually and naturally. If some printing authority rose up today and said "no more paper books! from today forward all books are electronic, take it or leave it!" that would not be an improvement obviously.
With e-books if the benefits are not there it will never get hold, so I see no reason to worry.
With technology, I have yet to see a change for the worse. Can you give an example?
I know I can't stand in the way of progress, and I am always open to new ideas and developments as long as they are not limiting liberties $:)
Quote from: orbital on April 07, 2009, 01:27:55 AM
With technology, I have yet to see a change for the worse. Can you give an example?
TV sets. The most effective tool in the total imbecilization of the masses.
RFID chips. The idea that our every movement and purchase can be tracked and recorded is appalling.
Quote from: orbital on April 07, 2009, 01:27:55 AMI know I can't stand in the way of progress, and I am always open to new ideas and developments as long as they are not limiting liberties $:)
That's precisely my main concern. The contemporary advancement of technology results in means of surveillance, control and manipulation that the worst tyrants of the past could only dream of, and is a clear and present threat to our liberties.
Gotta say I love e-books as well. I've had eReader installed on my Palm for a couple of years now, and love it. Recently I've gotten several strong hints that I'm getting a Kindle2 for my birthday in June, and I'm highly amused at the prospect. I'm liking the idea of the Kindle because of the huge number of books available at Amazon, and the way you can wirelessly get newspapers and magazines (and more books) anywhere there's a cellphone signal.
I don't see it as a replacement for paper books, though, at least not for me. I see it more as a supplement, a paperless way to get a daily newspaper and books that are all text, fiction, some history books, etc. I'd always want paper for something with lots of illustrations, maps, or footnotes, but that's not the majority of my reading. If I really like the thing, I could even see me reducing my paper books to a more manageable amount (ie an amount that actually fits on my bookshelves), but that's down the road.
Check out manybooks.net if you haven't already -- they offer lots of free public domain ebooks, preformatted in the option of your choice (txt, Sony, Kindle, ereader, etc.) Very nifty site!
Quote from: jwinter on April 07, 2009, 05:28:45 AM
Check out manybooks.net if you haven't already -- they offer lots of free public domain ebooks, preformatted in the option of your choice (txt, Sony, Kindle, ereader, etc.) Very nifty site!
Yes, it's a great site. I've used them many times. When the time comes, I can let you in a little covert site that is the best kept secret among ebook readers >:D
Quote from: Florestan on April 07, 2009, 01:47:52 AM
TV sets. The most effective tool in the total imbecilization of the masses.
;D Soccer is another one (so I am told >:D).
what you mean here is not the TV set, but TV programs. I doubt the TV was invented as a manipulation tool. But as it became more and more mainstream, the programs had to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is a shame, but not a crime.
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RFID chips. The idea that our every movement and purchase can be tracked and recorded is appalling.
I had to look that up. Looks like it's got a lot of uses one of which is to protect the wildlife. When it becomes mandatory to wear them, I will join in the protests with you, shoulder to shoulder $:)
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That's precisely my main concern. The contemporary advancement of technology results in means of surveillance, control and manipulation that the worst tyrants of the past could only dream of, and is a clear and present threat to our liberties.
We have both been raised in oppressive regimes (you more so than I, probably). I have lived under military rule and believe me I know the value of civil liberties. I don't believe technology will lead us to the future you have in mind. It is silly to try to predict the deep future so I won't try that, but like all the great revolutions, the information revolution will take some more time to sink in. Access to information for everyone is a giant step in freedom and it is something else that cannot be stopped :)
Think about it: nowadays the oppressive regimes have to
withhold technology from their people
The monkeys can't handle the technology. She's gonna blow!!! :o
Quote from: orbital on April 07, 2009, 06:05:37 AM
;D Soccer is another one (so I am told >:D).
what you mean here is not the TV set, but TV programs. I doubt the TV was invented as a manipulation tool. But as it became more and more mainstream, the programs had to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is a shame, but not a crime.
The television was surely not invented having manipulation in mind. But it eventually was "highjacked" and became the single most powerful tool for that. So here is an example of a technology that in its inceptions was greeted as a progress (even for educational purposes) but which ended up being something totally different. You asked for such an example, not for a crime.
BTW, soccer and TV are connected. In "those happy days" when TV sets were not yet invented, soccer retained all of its sport features, and so did the fans. When TV came around, the whole thing began to change (gradually and naturally, just as you require) until these times when soccer is a bussiness and the fans are exactly what television has made of them.
Quote from: orbital on April 07, 2009, 06:05:37 AM
When it becomes mandatory to wear them, I will join in the protests with you, shoulder to shoulder $:)
In Romania they are already mandatory for passports and in two years time they will be so for ID cards and driving licenses as well. Just let me know when you plan to visit Bucharest, so I can greet you at the airport. ;D
Quote from: orbital on April 07, 2009, 06:05:37 AM
Access to information for everyone is a giant step in freedom and it is something else that cannot be stopped :)
Think about it: nowadays the oppressive regimes have to withhold technology from their people
There are two ways of keeping people away from information (I mean, true and relevant information):
1. withhold it altogether from the people and replace it with propaganda
2. drown it in a sea of distorted, irrelevant or trivial information.
I'm sure you can very easy find yourself examples to illustrate both cases. :)
Quote from: Florestan on April 07, 2009, 11:41:05 PM
The television was surely not invented having manipulation in mind. But it eventually was "highjacked" and became the single most powerful tool for that. So here is an example of a technology that in its inceptions was greeted as a progress (even for educational purposes) but which ended up being something totally different. You asked for such an example, not for a crime.
Well, TV is a technological marvel. It is doing what it is supposed to do marvellously. How is it the failure of technology that people demand sub par programming from the networks? Can we blame, say, the automobile technology for traffic jams and accidents?
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BTW, soccer and TV are connected. In "those happy days" when TV sets were not yet invented, soccer retained all of its sport features, and so did the fans. When TV came around, the whole thing began to change (gradually and naturally, just as you require) until these times when soccer is a bussiness and the fans are exactly what television has made of them.
Poor television :( All it did was to make the sport reach a much wider audience. You should be blaming club bosses
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In Romania they are already mandatory for passports and in two years time they will be so for ID cards and driving licenses as well. Just let me know when you plan to visit Bucharest, so I can greet you at the airport. ;D
So what are these RFIDs on passports for exactly? Do they scan them at the airports for quick identification, or is it some type of tracking device? I am about to make a plane reservation pending your answer $:)
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There are two ways of keeping people away from information (I mean, true and relevant information):
1. withhold it altogether from the people and replace it with propaganda
2. drown it in a sea of distorted, irrelevant or trivial information.
I'm sure you can very easy find yourself examples to illustrate both cases. :)
The more immediate danger is the witholding of any information -relevant or not. That's where I'd focus first and foremost.
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 07:37:15 AM
How is it the failure of technology that people demand sub par programming from the networks?
Do you really believe that people demanded all the filth and crap that's airing on TV? The TV channels have been brainwashing and dumbing them down for decades, and now have the guts to present it all as a matter of demand and offer...
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 07:37:15 AMSo what are these RFIDs on passports for exactly? Do they scan them at the airports for quick identification, or is it some type of tracking device? I am about to make a plane reservation pending your answer $:)
They contain the fingerprints and a digital picture of a person and theoretically they are scanned only at airports and border pass. But --- and this is a publicly proven fact --- anyone with a laptop and an adequate software can clone it, provided he comes within the RFID operating range, which is a few meters. Your identity, which these passports are supposed to protect, is in fact stolen and you can find yourself on the "most wanted terrorists" list, without even knowing it.
I'll let you know when the next protestation march is scheduled. :)
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 07:37:15 AM
The more immediate danger is the witholding of any information -relevant or not. That's where I'd focus first and foremost.
Agreed.
Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2009, 10:40:17 AM
Do you really believe that people demanded all the filth and crap that's airing on TV? The TV channels have been brainwashing and dumbing them down for decades, and now have the guts to present it all as a matter of demand and offer...
If people are inclined to go that way... :-\ That's human nature I guess, at least on the mass scale.
But we have a testing ground now. People (provided governments grant access) have the opportunity to hear from every side of every argument -thanks to the internet. They don't need to be content with what is fed to them.
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They contain the fingerprints and a digital picture of a person and theoretically they are scanned only at airports and border pass. But --- and this is a publicly proven fact --- anyone with a laptop and an adequate software can clone it, provided he comes within the RFID operating range, which is a few meters. Your identity, which these passports are supposed to protect, is in fact stolen and you can find yourself on the "most wanted terrorists" list, without even knowing it.
I'll let you know when the next protestation march is scheduled. :)
They can even clone your credit cards without you even losing them. It happened to me, and I had no idea it could be done :o Someone somehow copied the information on the magnetic strip and apparently issued a card for him/herself ::)
One more question, is that a Romania only law or does it have something to do with EU congruity affair?
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 11:17:27 AM
People (provided governments grant access) have the opportunity to hear from every side of every argument -thanks to the internet. They don't need to be content with what is fed to them.
Agreed.
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 11:17:27 AMThey can even clone your credit cards without you even losing them. It happened to me, and I had no idea it could be done :o Someone somehow copied the information on the magnetic strip and apparently issued a card for him/herself ::)
It happened to my wife, too. They attached a device to the card-inserting slot of the ATM and read the magnetic strips of all cards that have been used that day. :)
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 11:17:27 AM
One more question, is that a Romania only law or does it have something to do with EU congruity affair?
It's not limited to Romania or even EU. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport), especially the "Opposition" chapter.
Quote from: orbital on April 09, 2009, 11:17:27 AM
They can even clone your credit cards without you even losing them. It happened to me, and I had no idea it could be done :o Someone somehow copied the information on the magnetic strip and apparently issued a card for him/herself ::)
Yeah, it happened to me too. Got my statement, and found out about a cool trip to India I'd apparently taken. :(
How about this? Do we want it?
http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html
Quote from: orbital on April 21, 2009, 01:05:47 AM
How about this? Do we want it?
http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html
I saw that. Yes, I want it.
Quote from: orbital on April 21, 2009, 01:05:47 AM
How about this? Do we want it?
http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html
My speakers are out of work. What is it?
Quote from: Florestan on April 21, 2009, 11:17:57 PM
My speakers are out of work. What is it?
It is basically a device that turns any surface into a touch screen via a projector. Sort of (but only sort of) like that gadget in Minority Report ;D
Quote from: orbital on April 22, 2009, 01:27:38 AM
It is basically a device that turns any surface into a touch screen via a projector.
I see. Since I don't need it, I don't want it. :)
Quote from: Florestan on April 22, 2009, 03:38:19 AM
I see. Since I don't need it, I don't want it. :)
Fine! You're not getting one ;D
But your reasoning is very tempting for a whole seperate discussion >:D
Quote from: orbital on April 22, 2009, 05:17:27 AM
Fine! You're not getting one ;D
But your reasoning is very tempting for a whole seperate discussion >:D
Feel free to open it and I'll certainly join in. :)
Well, since my OP on this thread, I've been trying the Zinio Reader (http://www.zinio.com/) w/ my subscription to PC Magazine - downloaded the software to my office computer which has a super wide monitor and have looked at the last half dozen issues of the magazine mentioned; not TOO bad - editorials have reviewed a number of customer 'complaints' about the 'new' format, which will be addressed and the software likely changed for the better - :)
Not sure that this will be 'prime time' on a small travelling laptop, but I'm adjusting to the idea - I'm sure that my other computer mag, PC World which is still shipping a 'print' version (but offering the same online option) will likely drop the printed format in the near future - just cannot see 'why not' - :-\
I've also been reading about the 'electronic ink readers' - mainly the Sony & Kindle options, both have been reviewed recently a number of times - some seem to prefer one to another, and the cost is still TOO high - as mentioned before, the future is upon us, but I'd like to see more companies offer these products and at better prices w/ color options - I'll likely be getting more into this electronic publishing in the future; just don't see another choice - :)