During my recent stay in the hospital, I had what I thought was an odd experience, and one that speaks about the state of classical music these days.
I brought along my MP3 player with a little set of plug-in external speakers so I wouldn't have to deal with headphones (which I learned about the difficulties on my last trip). The first couple of days I just set it next to my bed on that little rolling table and played through the entire Beethoven sonata cycle by Badura-Skoda. I had several nurses during that period, and they each and all stopped and listened to the music (seemingly enjoying it).
Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"
And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".
And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". :-\
This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto
Unfortunate indeed....however, your playing of this music may have planted a classical music seed in one of them and they may be shopping for some on Amazon right now. :)
I alternate between thinking frustrating thoughts precipitated by incidents similar to yours, and more positive ones when I see venues like Carnegie Hall packed, often with younger listeners. (Granted, New York probably skews the survey with all the thousands of concertgoers running around here.)
But for every experience like yours, I observe others that are more hopeful. On a trip to Paris, a colleague at my office stumbled into a little church where someone was performing the Bach Cello Suites. He is not particularly classically inclined (more Joni Mitchell), had never heard the pieces before, and couldn't stop talking about the experience and how wonderful it was. Then he bought a recording (Starker, IIRC, and not sure which one ;D).
But I can empathize with those times--I think all classical listeners run into it at some point--when you think you're the only person who likes it.
--Bruce
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
During my recent stay in the hospital, I had what I thought was an odd experience, and one that speaks about the state of classical music these days.
I think it says more about the state of civilization these days .....
With classical music you have to put some effort in to get something out. You also have to be in-tune with the idiom in order to "speak the same language as the composer", otherwise the sounds don't communicate anything. For example I LOVE orchestral and instrumental music, but I have never really acquired a taste for opera :o
Many people also have pretty short attention spans, and can just about cope with an iPod tune. I have noticed that over the years my local classical radio station has transitioned from playing whole works to individual movements (and the shorter the better).
The next dark age is approaching :'(
Ah, Bill, always an optimist. Good to know you. :)
I suppose I have been a bit sheltered, since this is my first experience in 20 years of this sort of thing. And maybe it isn't the falling down of ALL civilization, perhaps it's just a reflection of East Texas, which was never very high to start with... :D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #1 Klavierstück in eb for Fortepiano - Allegro assai
Gurn, in the eyes of outsiders we are not just listening to just any music, but we are listening to art.
And the thing is....they are actually right. ::) Only we perceive art (in this case in musical form) as something that is essential and indispensable in our lives, they see it as something they do not understand, and thus "elitist", regrettably. :-\
Q
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:55:41 AM
And maybe it isn't the falling down of ALL civilization, perhaps it's just a reflection of East Texas, which was never very high to start with... :D
EAST TEXAS !!!! Man, that's even worse than AUSTRALIA. You should have told the nurses it was Country and Western but your speakers were garbage. Yeeeeeee-haw. Grab your partner, swing her round, she'll just love, that Beethoven sound ......
Anyway, take care and make sure that Dubya doesn't find out what you have been doing ...............
It's just a good job you weren't listening to Elliott Carter, Gurn, or the nurse might not have been so . . . reticent.(1), (2), (3)
(1) Not that I've ever known any nurse to be less than polite.
(2) Nor that I've ever known any Texan to be less than polite.
(3) Except perhaps at the expense of a resident of Oklahoma.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"
And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".
And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". :-\
Well, if by any chance this exchange took place in Houston, then as a student "over at the university" ;) I can assure you most of my professors are obsessed with Bob Dylan music of the '60s counterculture movement.
I think part of the problem is that classical music's organizing figures are convinced that it is an elitist field. So many of them go around saying "we have a permanent market share of 2%" or "it takes so much education and blah-de-blah to get people to like classical music" or "kids these days will never listen to classical without music classes in elementary schools" or "well, we want people to be introduced to Mozart first because he's the best" or (thanks to Eric) "nobody these days likes romanticism" or other excuse-laden garbage. Because that's what they are doing: narrowing down the potential audience (aiming lower) and making excuses (aiming even lower still). As Benjamin Zander asks record industry bigwigs, "How would you walk, how would you talk, if you believed that
everybody loves classical music?"
And, naively, I hold out hope that everybody does - that, again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet." We here at GMG could and have generated numerous anecdotal examples, from Bruce's Bach-loving friend to the story of the inner-city prison inmates moved to tears (also by Bach's Cello Suites), from Andy's conversion as a metal fan to my story about the black gangsta guys with earrings who love Shostakovich, from people who have been converted by movies like
2001: A Space Odyssey to teenage street kids in Northern Ireland during "the troubles" who were moved to tears by a Chopin prelude. What we need to do is embrace our accessibility, share the joy we derive from music, and most of all, be confident that everyone can love classical music - that nobody is "too dumb" for it. :)
Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...
Quote from: Bogey on April 03, 2009, 08:30:57 AM
your playing of this music may have planted a classical music seed in one of them
That's a very important statement, Bill! You have to plant that seed. If they like what they hear, then they will look into it further, and see that it isn't elitist.
Classical Music is timeless, unlike pretty much all other music genres out there.
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2009, 09:21:17 AM
. . . again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet."
In other respects,
Ben and I may have our differences. But here is certainly the head of a nail he's hit.
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2009, 09:21:17 AM
again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet."
That is wonderful quote, Brian! :)
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2009, 09:21:17 AM
Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...
I'm betting that tonight you may witness a conversion or two. Do report back, by the way!
--Bruce
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:13:16 AMThis exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?
I run into these people all the time. Imagine me, a 20-year-old college student, walking around campus listening to Mozart; really fries the minds of my fellow classmates. I recently pounded such ignorance in a speech I made for speech class; needless to say, I got some strange looks, but I hope I made my point.
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on April 03, 2009, 11:20:54 AM
I run into these people all the time. Imagine me, a 20-year-old college student, walking around campus listening to Mozart; really fries the minds of my fellow classmates. I recently pounded such ignorance in a speech I made for speech class; needless to say, I got some strange looks, but I hope I made my point.
Yes, at least I fit the profile of an elitist a little better than you do. :D Apparently, anyway.... ;)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto
Yes, it's terribly unfortunate that the myth exists about classical music being stuffy,boring and elitist. And it has closed the minds of so many people.
I guess the nurses just assumed that nobody by a professor of music would spend so much time listening to classical music.
I'm always trying to encourage people i get to know to try classical music,and to listen to recordings,and give it a chance. I do a classical music program for residents at a nursing home in New Rochelle, just north of New York. I play all kinds of classical music for them,and they love it.But most hae already enjoyed classical music for many years.
I'm always trying to get more residents to come to my program, and in some cases I have, but other people just don't want to.
Before I moved to Westchester county I lived on Long Island,and did a similar program at United Cerebral Palsy there, and I generally had a larger audience. Usually,I have between four to about a dozen here every Friday. I'm hoping to expand my programs elsewhere in Westchester county, and have been investigating the possibilities, possibly for the New Rochelle public library and others in the area.
I also have a friend who doesn't like classical music,and who is always poking fun at opera, but he has never been to a performance,seen any on DVD,or listened to recordings. He actually thinks that if he goes to the opera,he'll see a bunch of ridiculous fat people in Viking costumes, with rich,bored people in the boxes,there for purely social reasons and to show off their fancy clothes.
I tried to explain to him that that is nothing but a caricature, and that in fact,some opera singers are actually really good looking and svelte.
He thinks the classic cartoons with Bugs Bunny spoofing opera are a blast.
For whever said here that he or she can't seem to get into opera, I'd recommend listening to complete recordings on CD which come with the libretto in the original language plus an English translation next to it.
This way, you know exactly what they are singing about and can follow the action closely. Also, most operas on DVD have English subtitles which you can access through the menu.
Not all CD recordings come with these, particularly the budget versions which have been reissued. But you can also download translations of operas from naxos.com. Keep trying,and you may get to love opera after all.
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2009, 09:21:17 AM
Well, if by any chance this exchange took place in Houston, then as a student "over at the university" ;) I can assure you most of my professors are obsessed with Bob Dylan music of the '60s counterculture movement.
I think part of the problem is that classical music's organizing figures are convinced that it is an elitist field. So many of them go around saying "we have a permanent market share of 2%" or "it takes so much education and blah-de-blah to get people to like classical music" or "kids these days will never listen to classical without music classes in elementary schools" or "well, we want people to be introduced to Mozart first because he's the best" or (thanks to Eric) "nobody these days likes romanticism" or other excuse-laden garbage. Because that's what they are doing: narrowing down the potential audience (aiming lower) and making excuses (aiming even lower still). As Benjamin Zander asks record industry bigwigs, "How would you walk, how would you talk, if you believed that everybody loves classical music?"
And, naively, I hold out hope that everybody does - that, again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet." We here at GMG could and have generated numerous anecdotal examples, from Bruce's Bach-loving friend to the story of the inner-city prison inmates moved to tears (also by Bach's Cello Suites), from Andy's conversion as a metal fan to my story about the black gangsta guys with earrings who love Shostakovich, from people who have been converted by movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey to teenage street kids in Northern Ireland during "the troubles" who were moved to tears by a Chopin prelude. What we need to do is embrace our accessibility, share the joy we derive from music, and most of all, be confident that everyone can love classical music - that nobody is "too dumb" for it. :)
Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...
Let's make one thing clear:
Bob Dylan SUX EGGS! :o As the kids chant at the games: "OVER-RATED!"
Brian: that Venezuelan youth orchestra is something else. I have seen their "YouTube concerts" and they are unbelievable!
Members may recall that part of my mission as a teacher is to spread classical music among my students, even though I teach things only tangential to music (Latin, German, History). The reaction has usually been positive, and I know I have created a few classical music listeners.
To be sure, my career has mainly been in Catholic schools, where I have found a more open-minded atmosphere than the public schools I have taught in. Perhaps the nurses are victims of a narrow-minded upbringing.
Mocking the supposed elitism of classical music goes back decades: the Marx Brothers
A Night at the Opera predates the Bugs Bunny satires. And since classical music used to be more expensive to hear than the local fiddlers in the barn, and was an urban experience, one can see how it became "rich people music." With class-warfare rhetoric popular in the Depression, classical music was collateral damage. And yes, I know that there were all kinds of attempts "to bring classical music to the people" and that e.g. Copland's politics would seem to belie elitism.
And yet the evidence abounds: most people think classical music is above them. Believing their own biases, they keep the attitude of e.g.
Gurn's nurses alive.
To paraquote, not paraquat, John Lennon: "All we are aaaaasking, is give
Palestrina a chaaaance!" 0:)
Quote from: Cato on April 03, 2009, 01:42:52 PM
Let's make one thing clear:
Bob Dylan SUX EGGS!
I hope you're kidding.
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2009, 09:21:17 AM
Well, if by any chance this exchange took place in Houston, then as a student "over at the university" ;) I can assure you most of my professors are obsessed with Bob Dylan music of the '60s counterculture movement.
I think part of the problem is that classical music's organizing figures are convinced that it is an elitist field. So many of them go around saying "we have a permanent market share of 2%" or "it takes so much education and blah-de-blah to get people to like classical music" or "kids these days will never listen to classical without music classes in elementary schools" or "well, we want people to be introduced to Mozart first because he's the best" or (thanks to Eric) "nobody these days likes romanticism" or other excuse-laden garbage. Because that's what they are doing: narrowing down the potential audience (aiming lower) and making excuses (aiming even lower still). As Benjamin Zander asks record industry bigwigs, "How would you walk, how would you talk, if you believed that everybody loves classical music?"
And, naively, I hold out hope that everybody does - that, again quoting Zander, "There are two kinds of people: those who love listening to classical music, and those who just haven't found out yet." We here at GMG could and have generated numerous anecdotal examples, from Bruce's Bach-loving friend to the story of the inner-city prison inmates moved to tears (also by Bach's Cello Suites), from Andy's conversion as a metal fan to my story about the black gangsta guys with earrings who love Shostakovich, from people who have been converted by movies like 2001: A Space Odyssey to teenage street kids in Northern Ireland during "the troubles" who were moved to tears by a Chopin prelude. What we need to do is embrace our accessibility, share the joy we derive from music, and most of all, be confident that everyone can love classical music - that nobody is "too dumb" for it. :)
Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...
Great post :) :)
Quote from: Cato on April 03, 2009, 01:42:52 PM
Let's make one thing clear:
And yet the evidence abounds: most people think classical music is above them. Believing their own biases, they keep the attitude of e.g. Gurn's nurses alive.
Yes, this at least jibes up with my own experience. I have had many people over the years say "I'm not smart enough to listen to that music". ??? I always ask "well, do you like what you hear?" And they say "yes", and I reply "Well, so what's to understand? All you have to do is like it, you don't need more than that. " :-\
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Missen (Compleet) - Franz Josef Haydn - Hob 22 14 Harmoniemesse pt 3 - Credo
Quote most often heard uttered by the great unwashed:
"It sounds like movie music."
THAT'S why. Blame Korngold (or somebody)...
And just because people are more educated does not make them smart. I'm sure NASA engineers couldn't boil water. They just know what they NEED TO KNOW...cause we live in a need to know culture like that.
The only people I've met who like Xenakis...are people I've found that I don't particularly like being around.
So I will take my elitist listening habits into the next room dear...all for ME!!!...and pretend that all this music was written for me to enjoy.
But I accuse the nurses of being elitist. Some of "these people" look down on us because we don't subscribe to the "cool" as they see it (which, of course, is the status quo of MEDIOCRITY). As long as it's luke warm and doesn't make waves.
They bring me to blows. A good back handed slap across the mouth.
forgive me, but f*** em.
reading this thread makes me want to hatch a plan for the next "hater" to come my way.
well...you feel lucky...punk?
Quote from: snyprrr on April 03, 2009, 05:22:22 PM
Quote most often heard uttered by the great unwashed:
"It sounds like movie music."
THAT'S why. Blame Korngold (or somebody)...
And just because people are more educated does not make them smart. I'm sure NASA engineers couldn't boil water. They just know what they NEED TO KNOW...cause we live in a need to know culture like that.
The only people I've met who like Xenakis...are people I've found that I don't particularly like being around.
So I will take my elitist listening habits into the next room dear...all for ME!!!...and pretend that all this music was written for me to enjoy.
But I accuse the nurses of being elitist. Some of "these people" look down on us because we don't subscribe to the "cool" as they see it (which, of course, is the status quo of MEDIOCRITY). As long as it's luke warm and doesn't make waves.
They bring me to blows. A good back handed slap across the mouth.
forgive me, but f*** em.
reading this thread makes me want to hatch a plan for the next "hater" to come my way.
well...you feel lucky...punk?
Well, yeah, but bear in mind that they were busy keeping me alive at the time (with plenty of help from Beethoven and Mozart, of course). So I had to respect them for that, even though they thought I was intelligent. >:(
8)
----------------
Listening to:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir - Haydn Harmoniemesse Hob XXII:14 Gratias agimus tibi
Quote from: Brian on April 03, 2009, 09:21:17 AM
Tonight I'm going to see Gustavo Dudamel conduct the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, with eight other college-student friends, at least two of whom have never been to a proper orchestra concert before. Will be very interesting to see the average age of that audience...
Put it this way: I'm going to have a lot to write about tomorrow!
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 03, 2009, 05:22:22 PM
forgive me, but f*** em.
Doing that to nurses?.......Well, THAT's a thought......
Hey, I'm just glad there's still enough interest in this excellent music that great new recordings are coming out of the industry for us to enjoy!
As long as I have my Mendelssohn I'm a happy camper... And my Beethoven... And Mozart... ;D
You should have seen the looks I got during the Don Giovanni scene when I played Amadeus at the video store. :D
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 05:12:30 PM
I have had many people over the years say "I'm not smart enough to listen to that music".
Jeez, that's something I'll never understand. When I first started listening to classical music I knew squat about it. I had no idea what a "movement" was! But I didn't care, after all it's friggin'
music. You can have a whole theory and philosophy and whatnot behind, but in the end it all boils down to sounds coming out of your speakers.
You don't need to "understand" something in order to like it. Otherwise, who would like women? ;D
Quote from: tanuki on April 04, 2009, 07:44:26 AM
Jeez, that's something I'll never understand. When I first started listening to classical music I knew squat about it. I had no idea what a "movement" was! But I didn't care, after all it's friggin' music. You can have a whole theory and philosophy and whatnot behind, but in the end it all boils down to sounds coming out of your speakers.
You don't need to "understand" something in order to like it. Otherwise, who would like women? ;D
;D (well, I really don't want to go there... ;) )
But yes, that's exactly what I think too. I knew squat about music when I started listening. I just knew that I liked what I heard. What else do you need? ???
8)
----------------
Listening to:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir - Haydn Paukenmesse Hob XXII:9 - Kyrie
Love of music can grow anywhere. I was brought up on a Scottish council house estate. My parents thought Mantovani was 'classical' and constantly yelled at me to turn down my funeral music. I had no friends who liked the kind of music that I did. But I went my own way.
There is quite a bit of classical music smuggled into films and used as background to commercials or documentaries. I think that many people hold in their heads a subconscious pool of classical music.
Mike
It's sad that even when the average American becomes interested in classical music, he has nowhere to buy it. Classical CD shopping in the US is now only a giant metropolis thing. The CD stores in shopping malls have reduced their classical section to little more than bargain-priced offerings of only Classical or Romantic-era warhorses, performances decades old at best and of low quality. Borders, which at one time seemed to buck the trend, is decimating its classical sections across the US. Sure, on the Internet there's limitless choice, but for novices it's nice to be able to browse in a real store and, though it's hardly imaginable today, talk with employees who know something about classical.
CRC, That last point that you made was one that was a great influence on me. When I was about 15, the local music shop employed a Polish manageress. She spent hours chatting to me, leading me through music I did not know, giving me good deals to let me swell my collection and knowledge. She told me about earlier generations of singers, got me to compare conductors from the shop discs, helped me to get into Brahms.
When she moved to a larger music store, I followed her. She had been well educated and spoke several languages. As well as music, she introduced me to Zola and Flaubert, Thoman Mann and to good travel writing. I got a liberal education. Now where do you find that these days? Apart from this site of course.
Mike
Quote from: alkan on April 03, 2009, 08:33:44 AM
I think it says more about the state of civilization these days .....
With classical music you have to put some effort in to get something out. You also have to be in-tune with the idiom in order to "speak the same language as the composer", otherwise the sounds don't communicate anything. For example I LOVE orchestral and instrumental music, but I have never really acquired a taste for opera :o
Many people also have pretty short attention spans, and can just about cope with an iPod tune. I have noticed that over the years my local classical radio station has transitioned from playing whole works to individual movements (and the shorter the better).
The next dark age is approaching :'(
Agree. The cultural dark age will be upon us soon.
I take a less dim view. Using internet, anybody can have a richer selction, as well as listeing to clips, in a way that even the best music stores of a few decades ago, only can dream of. And with no risk of intimidation. And using sites like this, you can get wellinformed advice that for most was uninmaginable a few years ago.
A larger problem is the short attention span promoted by commercial Television etc and generally less indepth activities.
Quote from: knight on April 04, 2009, 01:18:47 PM
Love of music can grow anywhere. I was brought up on a Scottish council house estate. My parents thought Mantovani was 'classical' and constantly yelled at me to turn down my funeral music. I had no friends who liked the kind of music that I did. But I went my own way.
Funny that your parents should have used that description. We once put on Brahms' Second Symphony and my younger brother called it "funeral music."
Quote from: Brian on April 05, 2009, 07:18:04 AM
Funny that your parents should have used that description. We once put on Brahms' Second Symphony and my younger brother called it "funeral music."
My wife does the same, no matter what I am playing it's like "Geez, Gurn, who's funeral is THAT for... " ::)
8)
PS - Needless to say, she isn't a fan, but it isn't because she hasn't heard every great work ever composed... ;)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Lieder from Poems by Goethe - Matthias Goerne \ Andreas Haefliger - D 161 Lied for Voice & Piano "An Mignon" ("Über Tal und Fluss getragen")
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 07:21:04 AM
My wife does the same, no matter what I am playing it's like "Geez, Gurn, who's funeral is THAT for... " ::)
8)
PS - Needless to say, she isn't a fan, but it isn't because she hasn't heard every great work ever composed... ;)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Lieder from Poems by Goethe - Matthias Goerne \ Andreas Haefliger - D 161 Lied for Voice & Piano "An Mignon" ("Über Tal und Fluss getragen")
My wife isn't a fan either. She likes '80s pop and rock, mainly. What does your wife like? Oh, my wife also likes silence. :-\
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 05, 2009, 07:35:31 AM
My wife isn't a fan either. She likes '80s pop and rock, mainly. What does your wife like? Oh, my wife also likes silence. :-\
Classic rock with heavy guitars and TV... and she abhors silence. If you put ZZ Top and Mozart out there together, she'd by on "Sharp Dressed Man" in a heartbeat... ::)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
L'Orfeo Ensemble di Spoleto - Fabrizio Ammetto - RV Anh.85 Sinfonia for Strings & Basso continuo in A 2nd mvmt - Andante
Quote from: erato on April 04, 2009, 11:06:10 PM
I take a less dim view. Using internet, anybody can have a richer selction, as well as listeing to clips, in a way that even the best music stores of a few decades ago, only can dream of. And with no risk of intimidation. And using sites like this, you can get wellinformed advice that for most was uninmaginable a few years ago.
And I would give up every one of these "advancements" if I could go back to shopping in the well-stocked record stores of my past.
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 05, 2009, 08:12:58 AM
And I would give up every one of these "advancements" if I could go back to shopping in the well-stocked record stores of my past.
Me too. I still don't use the potential of Internet shopping, I do all the "shopping": questioning, discussing etc. beforehand with people I have confidence in, just like I used to do at the shop. Then I go online and just buy the best deal I can find. It is a sorry replacement, but the best I can do for now. I guess music Forums have taken the place of your friendly clerk... :-\
8)
----------------
Listening to:
RV 693 Opera "La Senna Festeggiante" - Le Parlement de Musique / Gester Collot / Karolyi / MacLeod - Tal di me parlo - Al mio seno (L'Age d'or)
Quote from: tanuki on April 04, 2009, 07:44:26 AM
Jeez, that's something I'll never understand. When I first started listening to classical music I knew squat about it. I had no idea what a "movement" was! But I didn't care, after all it's friggin' music. You can have a whole theory and philosophy and whatnot behind, but in the end it all boils down to sounds coming out of your speakers.
You don't need to "understand" something in order to like it. Otherwise, who would like women? ;D
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2009, 07:49:03 AM
But yes, that's exactly what I think too. I knew squat about music when I started listening. I just knew that I liked what I heard. What else do you need? ???
8)
Congratulations, you are both wrong. Sure, at the beginning you're not going to know anything about classical...something more aesthetic will attract you to the music. But
understanding this music is
so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience.
Once you've stayed on the surface for a little while, this music will beg to be explored further. At some point there is no more sitting on the fence and the music will prove a great discriminator. If you want something you can't get on local FM radio, if you ever want to be able to discuss and expand your taste, if you want to make new synaptic connections in the brain, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS MUSIC!!!!!!! Anything less is failure. I can't stand the bourgeois 'just enjoy it' pap. Knowledge is empowerment.
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 08:43:26 AM
Congratulations, you are both wrong. Sure, at the beginning you're not going to know anything about classical...something more aesthetic will attract you to the music. But understanding this music is so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience.
Once you've stayed on the surface for a little while, this music will beg to be explored further. At some point there is no more sitting on the fence and the music will prove a great discriminator. If you want something you can't get on local FM radio, if you ever want to be able to discuss and expand your taste, if you want to make new synaptic connections in the brain, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS MUSIC!!!!!!! Anything less is failure. I can't stand the bourgeois 'just enjoy it' pap. Knowledge is empowerment.
Dude,
That's all well and good if you've been listening for a while. But that's not the situation here at all. These people have never heard classical before (except
O Fortuna in TV ads, of course ::) ) and they are intrigued by what they hear. What the hell are you supposed to say? "Oh no, you're right, you ARE too stupid for this music, go back to hip-hop...". No, you say "if you like what you hear, then listen and explore. You won't always remain ignorant, but you can still enjoy the music while you are". I bet I would convert a lot more people to classical with MY attitude than you would with yours... :)
8)
Quote from: snyprrr on April 03, 2009, 05:22:22 PM
I'm sure NASA engineers couldn't boil water.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of NASSA? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX_687HwX9c&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideosearch%3Fclient%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial%26channel%3Ds%26hl%3Den%26q%3D&feature=player_embedded)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 05, 2009, 08:50:56 AM
Are you sure you aren't thinking of NASSA? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX_687HwX9c&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideosearch%3Fclient%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial%26channel%3Ds%26hl%3Den%26q%3D&feature=player_embedded)
Good one, I about fell out of my chair ;D
It is very hard for a society like the American society with a chronic attention deficit disorder to get into classical music in a meaningful way. This genre requires patience and long-term appreciation for the timeless beauty many of the great compositions (not the warhouse pieces) such as WTC, Goldberg Variations and Beethoven Sonatas provide us.
The warhorse pieces are often masterpieces, as complex as the more arcane music.
How much do you know about the symbolism in Poussin paintings? Well, if you don't really know the colour codes, the meanings behind the use of plants and flowers, the allegory, the stances echoing Greek sculpture; then bog-off, don't look at it. Clearly you are not worthy to gaze on this meaningful work and can't really appreciate it.
Get back to your book of '100 most popular chocolate-box paintings' and leave the rest of the good stuff to those of us with discernment, intelligence and who know how to apply learning.....jeeze! How dare you look at that work and enjoy it just because it pleases some base sensual aspect of your personality.
Now, get off and do a four year art history course before you bother with a reply.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 11:32:38 AM
The warhorse pieces are often masterpieces, as complex as the more arcane music.
How much do you know about the symbolism in Poussin paintings? Well, if you don't really know the colour codes, the meanings behind the use of plants and flowers, the allegory, the stances echoing Greek sculpture; then bog-off, don't look at it. Clearly you are not worthy to gaze on this meaningful work and can't really appreciate it.
Get back to your book of '100 most popular chocolate-box paintings' and leave the rest of the good stuff to those of us with discernment, intelligence and who know how to apply learning.....jeeze! How dare you look at that work and enjoy it just because it pleases some base sensual aspect of your personality.
Now, get off and do a four year art history course before you bother with a reply.
Mike
:D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Wölfl Op 28 3 Sonatas for Fortepiano - Laure Colladant - Wölfl Op 28 #3 Sonata in b for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 11:32:38 AM
The warhorse pieces are often masterpieces, as complex as the more arcane music.
How much do you know about the symbolism in Poussin paintings? Well, if you don't really know the colour codes, the meanings behind the use of plants and flowers, the allegory, the stances echoing Greek sculpture; then bog-off, don't look at it. Clearly you are not worthy to gaze on this meaningful work and can't really appreciate it.
Get back to your book of '100 most popular chocolate-box paintings' and leave the rest of the good stuff to those of us with discernment, intelligence and who know how to apply learning.....jeeze! How dare you look at that work and enjoy it just because it pleases some base sensual aspect of your personality.
Now, get off and do a four year art history course before you bother with a reply.
Mike
I was speaking from an American perspective and did not speak for any other society. Why do you think you know more about the American culture than I do?
How would you know it to be so exceptionally different from the other cultures that have adopted and been affected by American mores? How can your comments stop so exactly at the 49th parallel?
Such a down on your fellow countrymen! They fancy a bit of cake, but unless they know how it was baked, you want them to stick to ships'-biscuit.
By the way, congratulations, you were jolly quick about that four year art history course. Do give us the low down on Poussin. Perhaps you can explain to us how his art influenced art subsequent to the French Revolution.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 12:15:43 PM
How would you know it to be so exceptionally different from the other cultures that have adopted and been affected by American mores? How can your comments stop so exactly at the 49th parallel?
Such a down on your fellow countrymen! They fancy a bit of cake, but unless they know how it was baked, you want them to stick to ships'-biscuit.
By the way, congratulations, you were jolly quick about that four year art history course. Do give us the low down on Poussin. Perhaps you can explain to us how his art influenced art subsequent to the French Revolution.
Mike
I do not pretend to intimately understand the English culture. Please do not pretend you understand the American society more than you do. After all, I live it and you do not. End of the story.
Would you be more interested to hear about how a diffusion equation handles transonic flow?
Irrespective of where you live, you made an absurd sweeping statement. Also, you have not the least clue what my level of knowledge is of US society.
If you want to play that game of having to live there to have any valid opinions and disqualifying any that come from 'elsewhere', then you provide a hostage to fortune each and every time you speak about anywhere other than the specific area of the society you live in.
Additionally, if you see US society as one homogeneous mass, you simply highlight how clueless you are. There is plenty of research from the US to show how tribal it remains and that what happens in one town can contrast markedly with attitudes in the town 20 miles away.
Your comments were elitist hogwash in any societal context.....As Jim Royale would say, 'End of story? My arse!'
Mike
Mike, you have a very nasty bee in your bonnet today. >:(
I really don't understand why you are so bent out of shape over Stuart's (Coopmv) comment?
Really? I thought I had been quite clear. I don't like the kind of sweeping elitist attitudes conveyed and I think the attempt to exclude me from commenting, because I don't live next door to Stuart, is fallacious.
We are talking human nature at least as much as about a specific society and I believe he painted himself into a corner; which is where I am now going to leave him, since it seems my comments are more robust you can bear.
Mike
I really don't see how Stuart's comments were elitist, at all. I think his comments pretty much hit the nail squarely too. Although it was a generalization, I think it is a good summary of the truth.
Well, I am not going to keep on and on....but what was said was that...
the American society has a chronic attention deficit disorder preventing it from getting into serious music.
Since we have a number of folk for the US as stalwarts of this board, who seem to be part of that society; I don't see how such a sweeping statement can stand examination. But really now, this is my last intervention for now on this topic, I made my points and won't hammer away any further.
Mike
Quote from: knight on April 05, 2009, 01:18:39 PM
Well, I am not going to keep on and on....but what was said was that...
the American society has a chronic attention deficit disorder preventing it from getting into serious music.
Since we have a number of folk for the US as stalwarts of this board, who seem to be part of that society; I don't see how such a sweeping statement can stand examination. But really now, this is my last intervention for now on this topic, I made my points and won't hammer away any further.
Mike
Oh, sorry, couldn't finish that long post... what were you saying there ???
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 935 #2 Impromptu in Ab for Fortepiano - Allegretto
I live in a farm town in Northern California located 10 miles from a university town. These two towns of about the same size and age are culturally very different from one another--as are LA and San Francisco. I recall a book (but not the title nor authors) by two sociologists published about 20 years ago about the nine different cultures they saw coexisting in California. As a Westerner, I know very well how little I have in common with my fellow Americans from the urban East and Midwest. Yet there is at least one thing that Americans in LA and San Francisco, Cleveland, Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore, and Boston all have in common: a great love for classical music sufficient to support world class orchestras and music schools. This may have much to do with why a recent Gramophone poll of international music critics placed 7 American orchestras among the world's top 20, and why applications for admission to study music at universities and conservatories have steadily risen in the US.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 05, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
This may have much to do with why a recent Gramophone poll of international music critics placed 7 American orchestras among the world's top 20, and why applications for admission to study music at universities and conservatories have steadily risen in the US.
Do you remember if the AtlantaSO was one of the 7?
In response to earlier posts, I think we can all recognize that a substantially large portion of Americans are culturally degenerate. Look at TV programming, Hollywood, the music business, education, the drug epidemic, etc. This may be a broad statement, but of course there are many exceptions...and I think many members here are indeed exceptions. Yet I don't think its too brash to recognize that there are cultural factors working against appreciation of high art.
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 08:43:26 AM
Sure, at the beginning you're not going to know anything about classical...something more aesthetic will attract you to the music. But understanding this music is so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience.
I agree with you, Frumaster. However, I was not talking about
appreciating, I was talking about
liking. Even if you think this is a shallow, mindless liking, it's the only way to start. Let's not forget that we're talking about drawing people who know practically nothing about classical into giving it a try.
If a friend of yours tells you they're interested in giving classical music a try, what would you do? Would you make them read dozens of books on music theory, music appreciation and composers' biographies
before you let them hear a single classical piece, lest they only 'like' the music in a shallow way?
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 07:21:04 AM
My wife does the same, no matter what I am playing it's like "Geez, Gurn, who's funeral is THAT for... " ::)
8)
PS - Needless to say, she isn't a fan, but it isn't because she hasn't heard every great work ever composed... ;)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Lieder from Poems by Goethe - Matthias Goerne \ Andreas Haefliger - D 161 Lied for Voice & Piano "An Mignon" ("Über Tal und Fluss getragen")
I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem ;D
I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married ??? ;D ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 05, 2009, 02:59:39 PM
I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem ;D
I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married ??? ;D ;D
Oh, I think it is more common than you might imagine. And since I hadn't been more than casually interested in classical music when we courted and wed, I can't exactly hold it against her since it was something I developed independently. On the upside, she doesn't begrudge my interest or try to change where I've gone, so that's far more tolerant than I could hope, yes? :)
8)
Yes, I can understand that :) People do develop new interests-and indeed should do-throughout life and there is no reason to believe that such interests, even if the partner has no similar interest, should automatically lead to divorce ;D After all, many men are addicted to watching sport but their partners do not share that addiction :)
But tell me...are you equally tolerant when your wife wants to play ZZTop at full volume? :)
(Actually...I have to admit...their stuff is quite-how shall I say-'catchy'? :))
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 08:43:26 AM
But understanding this music is so important, and it will only increase your appreciation and heighten the experience.
Once you've stayed on the surface for a little while, this music will beg to be explored further. At some point there is no more sitting on the fence and the music will prove a great discriminator. If you want something you can't get on local FM radio, if you ever want to be able to discuss and expand your taste, if you want to make new synaptic connections in the brain, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS MUSIC!!!!!!! Anything less is failure. I can't stand the bourgeois 'just enjoy it' pap. Knowledge is empowerment.
No, you don't need to understand music, discuss tastes or practice any other anti-"bourgeois" status signalling. I'm happy to leave all that social empowerment as an option for those who need it. The drive to understand is a personal one and has nothing to do with outmoded social/political classifications. The rise of mass art appreciation was certainly connected to the rise of an educated middle class. It could hardly be otherwise.
There is something a bit odd about being an elitist about music and then not being able to stand that non-elites don't behave the same way. Isn't it part of the joy of climbing the mountain that you can look down on everyone in the valley? Why would you want everyone up there with you?
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 05, 2009, 03:30:15 PM
Yes, I can understand that :) People do develop new interests-and indeed should do-throughout life and there is no reason to believe that such interests, even if the partner has no similar interest, should automatically lead to divorce ;D After all, many men are addicted to watching sport but their partners do not share that addiction :)
But tell me...are you equally tolerant when your wife wants to play ZZTop at full volume? :)
(Actually...I have to admit...their stuff is quite-how shall I say-'catchy'? :))
Oh, sure I do. That's what we listened to together 20 and more years ago. When we go on long road trips (which is not infrequently) we listen to classic rock stations all along the route. Since it is relatively rare for me, I don't consider it an imposition, especially since I know it will be over soon and I can get back to what I like. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 935 #2 Impromptu in Ab for Fortepiano - Allegretto
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 04:15:23 PM
I don't consider it an imposition, especially since I know it will be over soon and I can get back to what I like. :)
That's a very good mindset.
When I worked at Tower Records a few years ago, I would get so angry and annoyed when my co-workers would play crap I didn't like. Now it wouldn't bother me so much, because I know I have my CD collection full of music I love waiting for me at home. It's like having your own secret hiding place nobody knows about.
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 05, 2009, 02:59:39 PM
I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem ;D
I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married ??? ;D ;D
Well, LOL! ;D May be best for you to stay un-married for your own health! ;) :D
Next year, I will have been married 40 yrs (MY GOD!) - my wife, Susan, is extremely talented musically - she was a member of several college vocal groups (Brown University in Rhode Island & U. of Chicago), plus has belonged to a number of groups in our home town of Winston-Salem, NC; she sings beautifully, pretty much has 'perfect pitch', and plays numerous instruments (many of which I've posted pictures of in various threads here) - now your question is whether she enjoys my playing of classical music? Well, that has been an
argument of contention for us - she loves the pleasant chamber music, but is pretty much intolerable to the LOUDER options (whatever they may me?) - I have some 'wireless' headphones, so often need to decide when to use them! Now, she gladly attends local concerts (even of the same music she complains about @ home - may be just the social issue?).
Now, I've often wondered why a person w/ so much 'natural musical talent' hates to listen to classical music @ home - we've not come to a good compromise explanation - I guess the best comment is that 'listenting' vs. 'performing' is different to someone who is pretty much @ a professional level - I can't relate to this as a 'poor' teenage accordion player. But the bottom line is don't expect your future spouse to enjoy music at the same level of intestity that you may - Dave ;) :D
Quote from: drogulus on April 05, 2009, 04:06:28 PM
No, you don't need to understand music, discuss tastes or practice any other anti-"bourgeois" status signalling. I'm happy to leave all that social empowerment as an option for those who need it. The drive to understand is a personal one and has nothing to do with outmoded social/political classifications. The rise of mass art appreciation was certainly connected to the rise of an educated middle class. It could hardly be otherwise.
There is something a bit odd about being an elitist about music and then not being able to stand that non-elites don't behave the same way. Isn't it part of the joy of climbing the mountain that you can look down on everyone in the valley? Why would you want everyone up there with you?
Look, my views are not crafted from elitist attitudes even though I can understand how you would misinterpret them as such. Because of my own strong convictions, I simply want others around me to develop their appreciation of great music. Then we can have meaningful or at least interesting discussions beyond "I like so and so" and "its good". Thats the primary reason I come to this forum and try to learn new things every day. Its a shame that I am unable to converse with others that I know personally due to their lack of education on the subject. Many of them are very bright and well-educated otherwise. But this common notion of "just listen and enjoy" is stunting their growth and limiting their potential for music appreciation.
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 02:16:03 PM
Do you remember if the AtlantaSO was one of the 7?
In response to earlier posts, I think we can all recognize that a substantially large portion of Americans are culturally degenerate. Look at TV programming, Hollywood, the music business, education, the drug epidemic, etc. This may be a broad statement, but of course there are many exceptions...and I think many members here are indeed exceptions. Yet I don't think its too brash to recognize that there are cultural factors working against appreciation of high art.
Atlanta did not make the list. Nor did Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Cincinatti, Baltimore, or Dallas. But LA did...go figure! (Salonen's high profile, I expect.) I doubt that Americans are any more culturally degenerate than most nations and I don't think it's too chauvinistic to recognize that there are many cultural factors working toward appreciation of high art in America--arguably the nation which has contributed the most toward the arts in the post-War era.
Here's the Gramophone list:
1. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
2. Berlin Philharmonic
3. Vienna Philharmonic
4. London Symphony Orchestra
5. Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6. Bavarian Radio Symphony
7. Cleveland Orchestra
8. Los Angeles Philharmonic
9. Budapest Festival Orchestra
10. Dresden Staatskapelle
11. Boston Symphony Orchestra
12. New York Philharmonic
13. San Francisco Symphony
14. Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra
15. Russian National Orchestra
16. Leningrad Philharmonic
17. Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
18. Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
19. Saito Kinen Symphony Orchestra
20. Czech Philharmonic
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 04:50:24 PM
Look, my views are not crafted from elitist attitudes even though I can understand how you would misinterpret them as such. Because of my own strong convictions, I simply want others around me to develop their appreciation of great music. Then we can have meaningful or at least interesting discussions beyond "I like so and so" and "its good". Thats the primary reason I come to this forum and try to learn new things every day. Its a shame that I am unable to converse with others that I know personally due to their lack of education on the subject. Many of them are very bright and well-educated otherwise. But this common notion of "just listen and enjoy" is stunting their growth and limiting their potential for music appreciation.
Certainly it is. I understand that. All I'm saying is that everyone needs to start somewhere, and "listen and enjoy" is really the best place to start. They will get hooked, and afterwards the growth starts. Knowing myself, it may have been very predictable that I would do all I could to become an amateur music historian, but that would have never come about if I hadn't gone through the "listen and enjoy" phase first. I hadn't thought you were nearly as elitist as some, and I still don't, but when you reach my age, you realize that patience is requisite if you are going to turn on yourself and others to anything, especially something as rarefied as great music. :)
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto
Gurn, I understand your point. But its a little hard for me to identify with because during my discovery process, I had an almost simulataneous urge to learn about what I was hearing. Maybe I just had a very short 'listen and enjoy' phase before I completely immersed myself. But if if works your way for more people, thats great so long as they eventually realize there is more to the story.
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 05:24:55 PM
Gurn, I understand your point. But its a little hard for me to identify with because during my discovery process, I had an almost simulataneous urge to learn about what I was hearing. Maybe I just had a very short 'listen and enjoy' phase before I completely immersed myself. But if if works your way for more people, thats great so long as they eventually realize there is more to the story.
Well, now it's MY turn to sound elitist: if they go through that phase and still like what they are listening to enough to carry on, then if they have any curiosity (read: intelligence) at all, they
will bother to learn more. From nearly 6 years of being here every day, I have found that the underlying compulsion of 99% of all posters here is to satisfy that curiosity. The other 1% are equally divided between people who want to show off all they know and those who want to spam us with porn... :D
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 780 #6 Moment Musicaux in Ab for Fortepiano - Allegretto
Quote from: Frumaster on April 05, 2009, 05:24:55 PMBut if if works your way for more people, thats great so long as they eventually realize there is more to the story.
What, are you going to come to my house and take my CDs away if I don't sign up for one of your "More to the Story" classes?
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 05, 2009, 04:51:24 PM
Atlanta did not make the list. Nor did Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Cincinatti, Baltimore, or Dallas. But LA did...go figure! (Salonen's high profile, I expect.) I doubt that Americans are any more culturally degenerate than most nations and I don't think it's too chauvinistic to recognize that there are many cultural factors working toward appreciation of high art in America--arguably the nation which has contributed the most toward the arts in the post-War era.
Here's the Gramophone list:
1. Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
2. Berlin Philharmonic
3. Vienna Philharmonic
4. London Symphony Orchestra
5. Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6. Bavarian Radio Symphony
7. Cleveland Orchestra
8. Los Angeles Philharmonic
9. Budapest Festival Orchestra
10. Dresden Staatskapelle
11. Boston Symphony Orchestra
12. New York Philharmonic
13. San Francisco Symphony
14. Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra
15. Russian National Orchestra
16. Leningrad Philharmonic
17. Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
18. Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
19. Saito Kinen Symphony Orchestra
20. Czech Philharmonic
How many of the European orchestras would collapse without tax dollars supporting them? 0:)
To quote a German 18-year old from some years ago, who acted as spokesman for his 16-member exchange group from our Rhineland partner school, when I was playing
Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in my German II class:
"Vee do not like ziss music." $:)
Obscene American rap crap was the Germans #1 choice in "music," and that was quite often the case for the 22-years I spent with German teenagers. So "degeneracy" is quite alive in Germany and elsewhere!
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 05, 2009, 05:46:06 PM
What, are you going to come to my house and take my CDs away if I don't sign up for one of your "More to the Story" classes?
;D No, I would merely enlist you in a re-education camp. $:)
Quote from: Cato on April 05, 2009, 05:55:52 PM
How many of the European orchestras would collapse without tax dollars supporting them? 0:)
To quote a German 18-year old from some years ago, who acted as spokesman for his 16-member exchange group from our Rhineland partner school, when I was playing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in my German II class:
"Vee do not like ziss music." $:)
Obscene American rap crap was the Germans #1 choice in "music," and that was quite often the case for the 22-years I spent with German teenagers. So "degeneracy" is quite alive in Germany and elsewhere!
It is very sad, isn't it? The country that gave us JS Bach, Beethoven and many other great composers is now the country whose next generation cannot care less about its own cultural heritage and the essence of western civilization. The American rap plays right up to the ADD younger American generations and has infected the rest of the world as well. :(
Quote from: Cato on April 05, 2009, 05:55:52 PM
How many of the European orchestras would collapse without tax dollars supporting them? 0:)
To quote a German 18-year old from some years ago, who acted as spokesman for his 16-member exchange group from our Rhineland partner school, when I was playing Schoenberg's Gurrelieder in my German II class:
"Vee do not like ziss music." $:)
Obscene American rap crap was the Germans #1 choice in "music," and that was quite often the case for the 22-years I spent with German teenagers. So "degeneracy" is quite alive in Germany and elsewhere!
Well, thats good to know. Rap in the native language of listeners is also very popular in Europe from what I gather. I have known a couple of people recently straight out of France and Poland, and they both brought me some rap CDs. It was at least interesting to hear what words they could rap with that don't work in english.
Quote from: Coopmv on April 05, 2009, 06:16:11 PM
It is very sad, isn't it? The country that gave us JS Bach, Beethoven and many other great composers is now the country whose next generation cannot care less about its own cultural heritage and the essence of western civilization. The American rap plays right up to the ADD younger American generations and has infected the rest of the world as well. :(
Shame...
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2009, 07:43:31 AM
Classic rock with heavy guitars and TV... and she abhors silence. If you put ZZ Top and Mozart out there together, she'd by on "Sharp Dressed Man" in a heartbeat... ::)
When you step out, you're gonna do her in . . . .
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 05, 2009, 02:59:39 PM
I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem ;D
I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married ??? ;D ;D
Haven't you heard of the notion that "opposites attract"?
Quote from: Bulldog on April 06, 2009, 05:37:38 AM
Haven't you heard of the notion that "opposites attract"?
Of course I have :) They have never attracted me though ;D ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 05, 2009, 02:59:39 PM
I am very surprised to learn that many members have wifes who have no interest in and indeed appear to hate classical music. I know that Jeffrey(vandermolen) has to smuggle cds into his house to avoid trouble from his wife but this seems to be a wider problem ;D
I cannot imagine living with someone who did not share my taste in music or at least being open to persuasion......which is why perhaps I have never married ???
Ha! ;D Very droll. If she's supposed to be female, perhaps even attractive, and generally a pleasing human being (enough to spend a life-time sentence with), classical music obsession is the first thing to go among the requirements... otherwise we'd be fighting over the same pool of 7, 8 women. World-wide.
The best you can hope for is that they don't mind one's own, gentle missionary work and don't order you to turn Bach organ works off, Sunday morning. In return, we :-*
Quote from: Coopmv on April 05, 2009, 06:16:11 PM
It is very sad, isn't it? The country that gave us JS Bach, Beethoven and many other great composers is now the country whose next generation cannot care less about its own cultural heritage and the essence of western civilization. The American rap plays right up to the ADD younger American generations and has infected the rest of the world as well. :(
Well civilization is not something that stopped around 1900's. It, too, is constantly evolving and I have a very difficult time understanding the resistance to change, particularly in something like music which has always (even in the high-art ages) been a vehicle of entertainment ::)
Are you really sad that not many western youngsters today are listening to classical music? When have they ever...? ::)
Rap music was born as a contemporary protest music -the anticulture which has become a culture itself, just like Beatles did in the 60s. It will be replaced by what is surely upcoming.
Some comments in this thread remind me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain, something to the effect, "I am suspicious of attending any event which requires a change of clothes." I feel that way about any kind of art, not just music - that is, about having "knowledge" in order to appreciate it.
Having said that, it is true that I have accumulated an abundance of knowledge about music, and art in general, but when I am experiencing music I tend to forget all that stuff and just attempt to "get it" with my senses, and not by thinking about it - at least as it is happening. Maybe later, I will look at a score of something and try to find some underlying organization which I may have sensed by listening - but really - all that second hand appreciation is not what I consider the real aesthetic experience.
Hearing the music and feeling something - that is what I value, and I think anyone can do this despite not having a music degree, and in many ways, the more knowledge one has, it can serve to hide the music from you behind everything you think you know about it.
Quote from: orbital on April 06, 2009, 10:08:11 AM
Well civilization is not something that stopped around 1900's. It, too, is constantly evolving and I have a very difficult time understanding the resistance to change, particularly in something like music which has always (even in the high-art ages) been a vehicle of entertainment ::)
Because change is not always for the better, wouldn't you agree? Some amount of change is inevitable, but we can surely resist cultural degeneracy to some degree. Also, music was much more than mere entertainment in the Baroque period and earlier (sacred music).
Quote from: orbital on April 06, 2009, 10:08:11 AM
Are you really sad that not many western youngsters today are listening to classical music? When have they ever...? ::)
Prior to the 20th century. Most of the great composers began as children too.
Quote from: orbital on April 06, 2009, 10:08:11 AM
Rap music was born as a contemporary protest music -the anticulture which has become a culture itself, just like Beatles did in the 60s. It will be replaced by what is surely upcoming.
Lets hope so, but I don't like the trajectory we're on.
There, I have now split off all that Bachian argument to new pastures. Have at it, and let this thread fade away if it will or continue unimpeded.
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Jan Vermeulen - D 537 Sonata in a for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro, ma non troppo
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
During my recent stay in the hospital, I had what I thought was an odd experience, and one that speaks about the state of classical music these days.
I brought along my MP3 player with a little set of plug-in external speakers so I wouldn't have to deal with headphones (which I learned about the difficulties on my last trip). The first couple of days I just set it next to my bed on that little rolling table and played through the entire Beethoven sonata cycle by Badura-Skoda. I had several nurses during that period, and they each and all stopped and listened to the music (seemingly enjoying it).
Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"
And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".
And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". :-\
This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?
8)
Well, one must realize that to most people music just isn't an important part of their lifes. Not just classical music, but music of any kind. The average person has the radio playing in the background when he/she cleans his/her house, maybe buys two or three cd's a year and may get one as a present on his/her birthday, and he/she may go down to the disco on a Saturday night to jump up and down a bit, but that's basically it. People who really care about music are a minority and classical music fans are a minority within that minority.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 07, 2009, 01:26:10 PM
Well, one must realize that to most people music just isn't an important part of their lifes.
Good point. Even before I liked classical, music played a big role in my life. I couldn't (and can't) imagine living without it. I had my favorite bands, you could hear music in my room all day, had music posters on my wall...
On the same note, I always ask anyone I'm getting to know: "What music do you listen to?". (Always with my heart hoping they will say: "classical music".) By far, the most common response I get is: "A bit of everything." That's when I know that music doesn't play a big role on that person's life. A bit of everything? Who listens to a bit of everything? ???
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2009, 12:26:31 PM
There, I have now split off all that Bachian argument to new pastures. Have at it, and let this thread fade away if it will or continue unimpeded.
8)
Gurn, you da man!
Quote from: tanuki on April 07, 2009, 02:22:23 PM
On the same note, I always ask anyone I'm getting to know: "What music do you listen to?". (Always with my heart hoping they will say: "classical music".) By far, the most common response I get is: "A bit of everything." That's when I know that music doesn't play a big role on that person's life. A bit of everything? Who listens to a bit of everything? ???
Eclectic listeners. ;D
Quote from: jhar26 on April 07, 2009, 01:26:10 PM
Well, one must realize that to most people music just isn't an important part of their lifes.
I'm not sure if I 100% agree with you here. I think music is an important part of many people's lives, even for people who may not realize it. And regardless of music genre.
Have you ever heard anyone say "I don't like music, any kind of music at all"?
I have no read all the thread but I will chime in.
To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.
People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs. We will sit and say that the music they like is crap and say that ours is better. In no other music scene is it worse than in classical music. I play a lot of American Old-Time music as well and some of it exists but it is not nearly as bad. It is a much more welcoming environment.
Which this seems to be a natural segment into the rap conversation? Pre-commercialized rap is powerful and moving stuff. Listen to it for what it is, yeah there's a lot of "cussing" and talking about things that seem less than easy listening. Well guess what, if you grew up in an environment of violence and practically no hope of getting out i think you would be apt to write pissed off music as well. But now it's commercialized so it talks about bi***es and money. Commercialized music will always be the easy stuff, don't rate an entire genera of music based of the easy stuff. That's like talking down classical based of that "new age" stuff.
I welcome anyone to try criticize what i have just said but in my opinion it's true.
Quote from: ChamberNut on April 07, 2009, 05:14:03 PM
Have you ever heard anyone say "I don't like music, any kind of music at all"?
Only twice, and relatively recently (last two or three years).
Quote from: c#minor on April 07, 2009, 08:15:08 PM
Which this seems to be a natural segment into the rap conversation? Pre-commercialized rap is powerful and moving stuff. Listen to it for what it is, yeah there's a lot of "cussing" and talking about things that seem less than easy listening.
Funny, I've heard a lot of indigenous musics from violent parts of the world, and there's never the sort of rage and profanity as in rap. While rap in general may have been created as an authentic expression of certain parts of America, gangsta rape was carefully wrought by marketers to be so offensive.
Quote from: c#minor on April 07, 2009, 08:15:08 PM
To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.
People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs
I agree with your first assessment but not the second one. I think that the reason classical music appeals only to a small segment of the population is because gratification is seldom instant in classical music. Even in most jazz where the music is often very complicated, you may start to tap your feet or keep the beat with snaps instantly. So even if you don't get the music, you may still get something out of it right away.
Quote from: c#minor on April 07, 2009, 08:15:08 PM
I have no read all the thread but I will chime in.
To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.
People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs. We will sit and say that the music they like is crap and say that ours is better.
Dave won't.
I mightn't 8)
Quote from: CRCulver on April 07, 2009, 10:58:15 PM
Funny, I've heard a lot of indigenous musics from violent parts of the world, and there's never the sort of rage and profanity as in rap. While rap in general may have been created as an authentic expression of certain parts of America, gangsta rape was carefully wrought by marketers to be so offensive.
While I think you are on to something with the idea that the market has forces which are absent from 'indigenous music in the wild', I think that your pinning this on
marketers alone is strawmannish. There are patches of the music industry where the artists are marketers, themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/v/r9LCwI5iErE
My boss says he likes 50 songs.
:-\
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 08, 2009, 05:31:14 AM
My boss says he likes 50 songs.
:-\
Not 49, not 51? ;D Have you ever asked him for the list?
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 08, 2009, 05:39:37 AM
Not 49, not 51? ;D Have you ever asked him for the list?
Sarge
I should.
Quote from: ChamberNut on April 07, 2009, 05:14:03 PM
I'm not sure if I 100% agree with you here. I think music is an important part of many people's lives, even for people who may not realize it. And regardless of music genre.
Have you ever heard anyone say "I don't like music, any kind of music at all"?
No, but I'm not saying that they necessarily hate music, only that they are indifferent about it.
50 songs and Beethoven
Quote from: c#minor on April 07, 2009, 08:15:08 PM
I have no read all the thread but I will chime in.
To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.
People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs. We will sit and say that the music they like is crap and say that ours is better. In no other music scene is it worse than in classical music.
I absolutely agree with that. You have them among fans of any genre, but the snob quota is definitely higher among classical music fans. Many think that classical music fans are pompous, mostly rich and conservative people with a superiority complex.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 08, 2009, 05:58:28 AM
. . . but the snob quota is definitely higher among classical music fans.
Ever read
Rolling Stone?
How about someone who thinks that The Who is music, but Barry Manilow is not?
Survey
said:
We need a snob hierarchy!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 08, 2009, 06:03:03 AM
Ever read Rolling Stone?
How about someone who thinks that The Who is music, but Barry Manilow is not?
Yes, I've read Rolling Stone. :) But I've been a member of a number of music forums over the years, both classical and 'popular.' On some of the classical forums I was almost afraid to post because people would just bite your nose off or try to make you feel like an idiot over nothing. I never had that - at least not to the same degree - on a popular music forum.
The jerks on forums can pollute your personal taste with their stupid ideas. IGNORE THEM!!! ;D Go with your gut, heart and head. Stand on your own two feet, soldier.
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 08, 2009, 06:21:04 AM
The jerks on forums can pollute your personal taste with their stupid ideas. IGNORE THEM!!! ;D Go with your gut, heart and head. Stand on your own two feet, soldier.
O, they don't have any influence whatsoever on my own opinions. But for those who are not yet familiar with classical music such a thing may be a real turn off.
Ignore the jerks is nigh unto A Golden Rule.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 08, 2009, 06:17:34 AM
Yes, I've read Rolling Stone. :) But I've been a member of a number of music forums over the years, both classical and 'popular.' On some of the classical forums I was almost afraid to post because people would just bite your nose off or try to make you feel like an idiot over nothing. I never had that - at least not to the same degree - on a popular music forum.
Certainly true of RMCR--but GMG suffers only a few pompous jerks who pop in occasionally to try bolstering their own warped egos at others' expense. My limited exploration of popular music forums, however, suggests that--like GMG--their populations also include a few benighted participants who mistake their own painful mediocrity and superficiality for genius and profundity, condemning them to remain tragically incapable of learning anything.
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 08, 2009, 06:07:01 AM
We need a snob hierarchy!
Quote from: jhar26 on April 08, 2009, 05:58:28 AM
Many think that classical music fans are pompous, mostly rich and conservative people with a superiority complex.
I scored a 2 out of 4. Step right up!
Alas, I'm merely a one. I'm totally superior, but I'm not at all pompous about it. ;D
Quote from: jwinter on April 08, 2009, 08:10:00 AM
Alas, I'm merely a one. I'm totally superior, but I'm not at all pompous about it. ;D
True, true...too bad you're not rich, too!
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 08, 2009, 06:39:29 AM
Certainly true of RMCR--but GMG suffers only a few pompous jerks who pop in occasionally to try bolstering their own warped egos at others' expense. My limited exploration of popular music forums, however, suggests that--like GMG--their populations also include a few benighted participants who mistake their own painful mediocrity and superficiality for genius and profundity, condemning them to remain tragically incapable of learning anything.
Jack Black has played two similar characters, rock music snobs, in
High Fidelity and
School of Rock, but I have known such people in reality, especially in earlier years, when classical music was vilified as completely obsolete by the radicals of the 60's and 70's, and even as the music of the oppressive, hate-mongering running dogs of fascist capitalist imperialism. 8)
Quote from: Cato on April 08, 2009, 09:02:45 AM
Jack Black has played two similar characters, rock music snobs, in High Fidelity and School of Rock, but I have known such people in reality, especially in earlier years, when classical music was vilified as completely obsolete by the radicals of the 60's and 70's, and even as the music of the oppressive, hate-mongering running dogs of fascist capitalist imperialism. 8)
Hmmm...back then I felt somewhat like that about, say, Brahms, but certainly not Stockhausen, Bach, or Beethoven (especially not after discovering the late quartets!). How ironic that once-revolutionary rock music has long been co-opted by The Man and for decades has been the foremost means by which the running dogs brainwash young people into becoming mindless, obedient consumers!
Quote from: jhar26 on April 08, 2009, 05:58:28 AM
Many think that classical music fans are pompous, mostly rich and conservative people with a superiority complex.
As a stereotype, it's probably not so far off the mark... although I find that the
enthusiastic music lovers I know are almost overwhelmingly left of center (with one, albeit very notable, exception). Not to suggest that political leanings have any influence on our ability to discern good music. Just to fight stereotypes with stereotypes. ;D
"Pompous"... well--certainly clutzy communicators. But no more pompous, surely, than a-social... a stereotype you have forgotten about. Undoubtedly the most ill-adjusted and weirdest people you would ever meet where part of the classical clientele when I worked at Tower Records. Even the kids from Rock & Rap were in awe what kind of weirdos we had to handle. (This might be ever so slightly a pronounced American phenomenon, though, since classical music enthusiasm was never as widespread through all classes of society and is not in the same way linked with ideas (true or imagined) of "sophistication".) Then again, the rest of classical clientele was made up of people you'd all want to invite for Dinner to your house: Well conversant, clean, smart, non-ideological, low on the zealotism.
Like any good micro-universe, it contains all types... just with pronounced flavors.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 08, 2009, 09:12:53 AM
Hmmm...back then I felt somewhat like that about, say, Brahms, but certainly not Stockhausen [...]. How ironic that once-revolutionary rock music has long been co-opted by The Man...
And how more ironic, yet, that precisely the anti-establishment modernist classical movement a la Stockhausen, Darmstadt, et al. was largely CIA funded and supported. Talking about "The Man"... (also one of the ultimate reasons for the failure of modern classical music, which is a sad truth even as originals like Stockhausen influenced other musics
greatly. ;)
Quote from: jlaurson on April 09, 2009, 09:55:33 PM
As a stereotype, it's probably not so far off the mark... although I find that the enthusiastic music lovers I know are almost overwhelmingly left of center (with one, albeit very notable, exception). Not to suggest that political leanings have any influence on our ability to discern good music. Just to fight stereotypes with stereotypes. ;D
Where do stereotypes enter into this? Leave it in the realm of
this is my own experience, resist the urge to claim it as normative, and
voilà! simple statement.
Quote from: Cato on April 03, 2009, 01:42:52 PM
Let's make one thing clear:
Bob Dylan SUX EGGS! :o As the kids chant at the games: "OVER-RATED!"
Sez you! ;D
I love that Zander quote. If people would just sit down and LISTEN! :D
I'm coming late to this thread, but at least one thought occurs to me:
While classical music has always, I think, been a niche interest, I think that interest in classical music is less coupled to social class than people often assume. While I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, a lot of the most hardcore classical listeners (and occasionally, performers) I have known have come from anything but comfortable middle-class backgrounds--as, indeed, have a significant proportion of the great composers and musicians.
I still recall being told by a friend of how he was in one of the nastiest, most violent bars in Dundee and ended up hearing from an excited patron that he had managed to get hold of tickets for Alfred Brendel playing the Schoenberg piano concerto.
Quote from: edward on April 10, 2009, 01:21:50 PM
I'm coming late to this thread, but at least one thought occurs to me:
While classical music has always, I think, been a niche interest, I think that interest in classical music is less coupled to social class than people often assume. While I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, a lot of the most hardcore classical listeners (and occasionally, performers) I have known have come from anything but comfortable middle-class backgrounds--as, indeed, have a significant proportion of the great composers and musicians.
I still recall being told by a friend of how he was in one of the nastiest, most violent bars in Dundee and ended up hearing from an excited patron that he had managed to get hold of tickets for Alfred Brendel playing the Schoenberg piano concerto.
I agree that there are listeners from all types of socioeconomic statuses but the attitude of classical music "connoisseurs" (spelling?) have a strong air of pretentiousness about them, at least when it comes to music. Like when someone mispronounces Wagner it will be corrected in a condescending manner (which i have seen more than once). I can understand how it's intimidating for a listener starting off. Even when a new listener comes of the forum and ask for some listening advice people sometimes advise to go out and get some Carter or some other more challenging pieces. Though i'm guilty of exactly that i now realize that 99% of those starting off want "the 4 seasons" rather than Berg's Violin Concerto. i don't know, i guess i am getting more frustrated over time with what i see as an "anti-populas" attitude among that classical music community. I am not saying that complex and more "out there" music is bad or inherently destructive to classical music, it is just the sentiment of "our music is so much better." And I do believe that classical music is the best music, but other people believe that Dylan is the best musician as much as i believe what i believe. And look at todays composers, so many are trying to push and expand the edge of music. Now this is a noble endeavor, but isn't it just as noble to create music that will touch a mass of people? Where is todays Copland? Which composer does the "lay listener" follow?
Am i way off point with this attitude? I love modern composition but it don't love its mentality. Can't we get away from the academic sound and the snobbery occasionally? Can't we try to reach out to the masses?
Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy" but this is something that i've been thinking about long before this thread came up.
Quote from: c#minor on April 11, 2009, 11:12:08 PMThough i'm guilty of exactly that i now realize that 99% of those starting off want "the 4 seasons" rather than Berg's Violin Concerto.
I have no qualms recommending (some of the safer) Xenakis or Stockhausen to people I know are into electronica or metal. A lot of younger people who are new to classical music find standard repertoire boring. Starting out, they want something that sounds more aggressive. Over time, they will work their way backwards and find value in earlier music.
QuoteNow this is a noble endeavor, but isn't it just as noble to create music that will touch a mass of people? Where is todays Copland
Composers like Danielpour and Golijov try to write music that will touch a mass of people, and the labels market the hell out of them. But for some temporary success in the marketplace, none of what they write proves a real hit, and after a decade or so even most neo-tonal fans find these works lame.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 12, 2009, 01:22:05 PM
I have no qualms recommending (some of the safer) Xenakis or Stockhausen to people I know are into electronica or metal. A lot of younger people who are new to classical music find standard repertoire boring. Starting out, they want something that sounds more aggressive. Over time, they will work their way backwards and find value in earlier music.
I can vouch for this as it describes exactly how I got into classical music.
Quote from: James on April 12, 2009, 02:41:10 PM
and you'd be right... Dylan is an overexposed pop icon, the level of his musicianship is quite low unfortunately. real composers/musicians aren't whores, they have to follow their own path & truth, they can't be concerned with the masses, otherwise they risk sounding completely contrived (fake, not true to themselves) in order to try to please everyone...you see, for serious musically disciplined artists they simply have to realize what they really want for better or for worse, this sometimes means breaking rules & traditions in the process...and we either "get it" or we don't if the end result is quite different. but as history has shown us it's usually these brave figures who stick to their own creative guns & vision that are remembered and cherished for their best work instead of the homogenized stuff.
Bob Dylan was not concerned with the masses. When he came onto the scene, his music completely defied all pop music conventions of the day. True to his convictions, he refused to perform on the Ed Sullivan Show rather than succumb to the demands of the censors. He risked the outrage of the folk music establishment by injecting electric instruments into his music. He was/is a brave figure who stuck to his own creative guns and vision.
QuoteBob Dylan was not concerned with the masses.
But the masses like him. That's usually not good...
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 05:27:03 PM
But the masses like him. That's usually not good...
I have a feeling that many people here would be genuinely unhappy if the masses actually did enjoy classical music.
Quote from: Szykniej on April 12, 2009, 05:43:10 PM
I have a feeling that many people here would be genuinely unhappy if the masses actually did enjoy classical music.
Well, there's basically no way to tell whether or not that would be a good thing...
but, to me, it would sound like a good thing- just imagine being able to discuss composers with people you know, rather than having to go online. Also, imagine there being no problem for lack of funding with orchestras. Also, imagine young people being into composing future masterworks, maybe even some coming to be as great as the greatest composers of past. It would at least sound like a good thing to me...
Quote from: Szykniej on April 12, 2009, 05:43:10 PM
I have a feeling that many people here would be genuinely unhappy if the masses actually did enjoy classical music.
They would feel so . . .
soiled 8)
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 05:27:03 PM
But the masses like him. That's usually not good...
Thats an idiotic statement. The masses at one time or another liked many of the classical composers we boast here on a regular basis. Plus, a lot of people hate Bob Dylan, and he certainly hasn't been popular with the youth since his heyday. Plus, there are many worse choices in music...at least Bob Dylan is a good poet and sings naturally. The music is a bit stale...but thats folk music for you.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 06:02:25 PM
Well, there's basically no way to tell whether or not that would be a good thing...
but, to me, it would sound like a good thing- just imagine being able to discuss composers with people you know, rather than having to go online. Also, imagine there being no problem for lack of funding with orchestras. Also, imagine young people being into composing future masterworks, maybe even some coming to be as great as the greatest composers of past. It would at least sound like a good thing to me...
It would just be dragged down into mediocrity, like everything else that appeals to the lowest common denominator.
Quote from: Frumaster on April 12, 2009, 08:03:19 PM
Thats an idiotic statement. The masses at one time or another liked many of the classical composers we boast here on a regular basis. Plus, a lot of people hate Bob Dylan, and he certainly hasn't been popular with the youth since his heyday. Plus, there are many worse choices in music...at least Bob Dylan is a good poet and sings naturally. The music is a bit stale...but thats folk music for you.
Yes, the masses at one time more or less worshipped Beethoven and Wagner. That's perfectly fine, but I'm talking about the masses that worship stuff like Eminem, Garth Brooks, Marilyn Manson, Soulja Boy, Flo Rida, whatever, that's a pathetic attempt at making music. My point is just that the masses of today have bad taste in music, and the fact that Bob Dylan is as popular as he is (even if he isn't the most popular) just says that I might want to avoid listening to whatever I haven't heard of his music.
Quote from: Corey on April 12, 2009, 08:07:02 PM
It would just be dragged down into mediocrity, like everything else that appeals to the lowest common denominator.
Probably. It'd be hard to tell, though, because to even set up such a scenario, society would have to be made up of completely different types of people than it is now.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 08:27:35 PM
Yes, the masses at one time more or less worshipped Beethoven and Wagner. That's perfectly fine, but I'm talking about the masses that worship stuff like Eminem, Garth Brooks, Marilyn Manson, Soulja Boy, Flo Rida, whatever, that's a pathetic attempt at making music. My point is just that the masses of today have bad taste in music, and the fact that Bob Dylan is as popular as he is (even if he isn't the most popular) just says that I might want to avoid listening to whatever I haven't heard of his music.
Greg, you need to understand that, just as there are qualitative differences between classical composers (Dittersdorf or Salieri vs Haydn or Mozart, for example) so too are there differences between popular artists like Garth Brooks, Emimen, Britney and the Beatles, Dylan, Miles Davis. To ignore the greats in popular music is, in my opinion, extremely foolish and self-limiting. You cut yourself off from your own musical culture and heritage. Look at the members who contributed to the popular music desert island lists: do you really think people like Karl listen to crap?
I'm not suggesting you listen to what's on the radio today. That really is crap (quality radio in America has been destroyed by corporate takeovers and the appeal to commercial interests). But what's on the radio is only a tiny fraction compared to the "popular" music that's available from other sources--and by popular I mean anything that isn't classical: rock (and its many sub-genres), country, pop, jazz, R&B, folk--nearly a century's worth of popular music to choose from.
Sarge
This thread has become weird and sort of sad.
But, it could have gone Sad, and sort of weird . . . .
(* sniff *)
Next someone will complain that Tibetan monks really can't carry a tune...
But they dance purty.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2009, 05:41:41 AM
But they dance purty.
(http://www.potalaworld.com/catalog/ritual/images/phurbas/dancing_monk.jpg)
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 08:27:35 PM
Yes, the masses at one time more or less worshipped Beethoven and Wagner. That's perfectly fine, but I'm talking about the masses that worship stuff like Eminem, Garth Brooks, Marilyn Manson, Soulja Boy, Flo Rida, whatever, that's a pathetic attempt at making music. My point is just that the masses of today have bad taste in music, and the fact that Bob Dylan is as popular as he is (even if he isn't the most popular) just says that I might want to avoid listening to whatever I haven't heard of his music.
Popular music isn't 'the enemy.' People who listen to Mariah Carey wouldn't be listening to Beethoven if there wasn't any pop music - they would be listening to nothing whatsoever.
I agree with others that it's a pity that classical music isn't more popular with the masses, but having said that I have no doubt whatsoever that if there ever is another composer who becomes as popular as, say, Mozart or Beethoven that those same people who complain now about the lack of interest in classical music would argue that said composer is overrated or has sold out. 'Specialists' like to make fun of the masses for their poor taste in music, but they don't want them to get with it either - not really, because those specialists also like the idea that they know something more than the average guy.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 13, 2009, 05:48:37 AM
Popular music isn't 'the enemy.' People who listen to Mariah Carey wouldn't be listening to Beethoven if there wasn't any pop music - they would be listening to nothing whatsoever.
I agree with others that it's a pity that classical music isn't more popular with the masses, but having said that I have no doubt whatsoever that if there ever is another composer who becomes as popular as, say, Mozart or Beethoven that those same people who complain now about the lack of interest in classical music would argue that said composer is overrated or has sold out. 'Specialists' like to make fun of the masses for their poor taste in music, but they don't want them to get with it either - not really, because those specialists also like the idea that they know something more than the average guy.
Excellent.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 13, 2009, 05:48:37 AM
Popular music isn't 'the enemy.' People who listen to Mariah Carey wouldn't be listening to Beethoven if there wasn't any pop music - they would be listening to nothing whatsoever.
I agree with others that it's a pity that classical music isn't more popular with the masses, but having said that I have no doubt whatsoever that if there ever is another composer who becomes as popular as, say, Mozart or Beethoven that those same people who complain now about the lack of interest in classical music would argue that said composer is overrated or has sold out. 'Specialists' like to make fun of the masses for their poor taste in music, but they don't want them to get with it either - not really, because those specialists also like the idea that they know something more than the average guy.
I agree with Dave, and if he's an average guy, I don't mind that he gets it.
I wonder if we can consider (say) Philip Glass as (roughly as) popular as Mozart or Beethoven. (An office-mate was just asking me about Glass, as he had just seen a bio on the PBS series American Masters.)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2009, 05:23:27 AM
Greg, you need to understand that, just as there are qualitative differences between classical composers (Dittersdorf or Salieri vs Haydn or Mozart, for example) so too are there differences between popular artists like Garth Brooks, Emimen, Britney and the Beatles, Dylan, Miles Davis. To ignore the greats in popular music is, in my opinion, extremely foolish and self-limiting. You cut yourself off from your own musical culture and heritage. Look at the members who contributed to the popular music desert island lists: do you really think people like Karl listen to crap?
I'm not suggesting you listen to what's on the radio today. That really is crap (quality radio in America has been destroyed by corporate takeovers and the appeal to commercial interests). But what's on the radio is only a tiny fraction compared to the "popular" music that's available from other sources--and by popular I mean anything that isn't classical: rock (and its many sub-genres), country, pop, jazz, R&B, folk--nearly a century's worth of popular music to choose from.
Sarge
I was pretty much referring only to what's on the radio today, to be specific. ;D
Most of the radio sounds like broadcast mating calls. ::)
(there still is some "popular" music I listen to, but stuff that's unlikely to be heard on the radio).
Quote from: James on April 13, 2009, 09:16:55 AM
dylan a good poet? puh-lease....and to actually call his meandering mumbling "singing" haha...sad.
Are you a poetry expert?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/10/sunday/main648439.shtml
Quote from: James on April 13, 2009, 09:27:32 AM
not an expert but i had to study a bit of it in university back in the day...dylan ain't no poet believe me, and i hate to say it but... their isn't much about music to him either.
What have you listened to?
If all of a sudden classical music became popular, do you think the radio/MTV/etc. would put Haydn, Mahler and Stravinsky in heavy rotation? Or maybe they will play these:
Breakthrough soprano Britannia Spiralia and her new song "My first love", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.
Grammy-winning soprano Ashleya Simpsona and her new song "Please don't leave me", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.
Accomplished composer Eminemus and his new composition "Sensual sonata", including suggestive rhytmic percussion and a woman's moaning.
Famous soprano Beyonza and her new song "Don't ever come back", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.
Snobbism exists on both sides. There may be SOME classical snobs, but I think most lovers of classical music aren't.They just love classical music. That's true of me.
There's a myth and stereotype about rich,bored people going to the opera just to show off their fancy clothes and jewelry, who really aren't interested in opera at all. But the vast majority of the people who go to the opera go because they genuinely love opera,and are very much caught up in both the music and the drama. The same is true of audiences for orchestral concerts.
On the otherhand,there are some people who sneer at classical music as stuffy,boring and elitist, and who claim that it's"irrelevant" in today's world, and something hopelessly dated and which couldn't possibly be of interest to the"with it" people of today.
And many of these people are totally ignorant of classical music;they just accept myths about it blindly.
Some years ago,I saw a debate on PBS about whether the government should fund opera and classical music in America. There was an opera singer,and a Jazz critic who argued against it.
Why? Because,he claimed, opera is a "European" art irrelevant to Americans. And furthermore,he claimed, audiences for opera are just rich,snobbish people who go there to see and be seen, and to show off their finery.
I wanted to throttle this ignorant and arrogant jerk. He was obviously totally ignorant of opera, and unaware that people go there because they really love it. And furthermore, he obviously knew nothing of the many operas that have been written by American composers,and successfully performed. This was nothing but reverse snobbism.
All people have the right to enjoy whatever kind of music they like.
There's nothing wrong with that. But they shouldn't be snobs whether they are fans of classical or Rock,pop,Jazz, Country, or whatever.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"
And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".
And she said "well, I couldn't imagine anyone else who would listen to music like that". :-\
This exchange kind of bothered me. These were educated, professional women, most of them were more educated than me, actually. And they had fallen prey to the idea of elitism in classical music. That's the first time I've had this sort of experience, and it continues to bother me. Are we that out of touch?
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Schubert: Fortepiano Works - Lambert Orkis - D 946 #2 Klavierstück in Eb for Fortepiano - Allegretto
I don't show my ipod to anyone anymore.
I had dinner recently with someone who spent the evening trying to convince me that the greatest 20th century composer who ever lived was Nino Rota, who composed most of the score for the Godfather. You should know that for most people, classical music is the orchestral music they hear in the movies. You should have just told the nurses it was a movie score.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 08:27:35 PM
Yes, the masses at one time more or less worshipped Beethoven and Wagner...
Oh really? I seem to recall from music history that both composers only got worshipped by said masses after they died...and only after considerable struggle from relatives and/or friends and/or younger colleagues... ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on April 14, 2009, 12:15:03 PM
Oh really? I seem to recall from music history that both composers only got worshipped by said masses after they died...and only after considerable struggle from relatives and/or friends and/or younger colleagues... ;D
Don't know about Dirty Dickie, but that's true about Beethoven. He was "revered" as an icon, so to speak, but he was NOT loved for his music in his lifetime (except for Wellington's Victory, of course ::) ). :-\
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Rotterdam PO / Zinman - Rimski Korsakov Suite The Snow Maiden 1st mvmt - Introduction
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2009, 12:39:44 PM
Don't know about Dirty Dickie, but that's true about Beethoven. He was "revered" as an icon, so to speak, but he was NOT loved for his music in his lifetime (except for Wellington's Victory, of course ::) ). :-\
They applauded him at the premiere of the
Ninth . . . might have been a
succès d'estime, of course 8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2009, 12:39:44 PM
Don't know about Dirty Dickie, but that's true about Beethoven. He was "revered" as an icon, so to speak, but he was NOT loved for his music in his lifetime (except for Wellington's Victory, of course ::) ). :-\
8)
Well, if he was revered as an icon they must have appreciated his music. He may often have been controversial, but so was for example Stravinsky in more recent times, but he was nevertheless considered a very important composer during his lifetime also.
Oh, he was esteemed, no doubt. And his peers and contemporaries realized that he was par excellence. However, his music was considered either hopelessly old-fashioned or else (after 1820 or so) the work of a madman. You can scarcely call this the adulation of the masses.... :) It was postmortem before he "enjoyed" the fame and appreciation that should have accrued to him in life.
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Rotterdam SO / Zinman - Rimski Korsakov Suite The Golden Cockerel 1st mvmt - Tsar Dodon in His Palace
I suspect mass-adoration was harder to come by in a time prior to television, radio, and recordings.
Quote from: tanuki on April 13, 2009, 11:16:46 AM
If all of a sudden classical music became popular, do you think the radio/MTV/etc. would put Haydn, Mahler and Stravinsky in heavy rotation? Or maybe they will play these:
Breakthrough soprano Britannia Spiralia and her new song "My first love", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.
Grammy-winning soprano Ashleya Simpsona and her new song "Please don't leave me", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.
Accomplished composer Eminemus and his new composition "Sensual sonata", including suggestive rhytmic percussion and a woman's moaning.
Famous soprano Beyonza and her new song "Don't ever come back", with lush string accompaniment, including a heart-touching violin solo.
Lol ;D
'pop classical'...
what a nightmare...
Quote from: James on April 12, 2009, 05:45:50 PM
bob dylan blows, absolutely bottom of the barrel musicianship...the masses eat up all kinds of shit & glorify it like it's some huge musical deal.
I'm not trying to pick on you James but i have to respond to this one.
This is exactly what i am talking about. "Bottom of the barrel musicianship" "kind of shit". Who is anyone to say what's shit and what's gold? Dylan didn't come from the commercialized establishment and became popular. So by saying that people like Dylan and you "realize" it's shit you are therefor better or have far superior taste and sensibility than everyone else??? I hate Brittany Spears but i am not about to snob someone who likes it, different strokes for different folks.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 05:27:03 PM
But the masses like him. That's usually not good...
Why is this bad?
Quote from: Szykniej on April 12, 2009, 05:43:10 PM
I have a feeling that many people here would be genuinely unhappy if the masses actually did enjoy classical music.
I completely agree, because then we wouldn't get to think of ourselves as so much more cultured than the rest of the world.
But think, if the masses did love classical music. Yes there would be stupid stuff, "classical pop", but with this huge influx of people there would be an influx of talent and new music. Kids wouldn't be practicing electric guitar, they would be picking up the cello or playing the piano. There would be "garage quartets". That would be amazing. We wouldn't have to go out to an isolated place on the internet to discuss what we love, it would be a part of the culture. Every city would have an Orchestra and every big city would have a great Orchestra.
Would that really be that horrible? Wouldn't it be worth it to have that kind of culture even if we would have to sacrifice feeling proud because we are "special"??
Quote from: Bahamut on April 12, 2009, 06:02:25 PM
Well, there's basically no way to tell whether or not that would be a good thing...
but, to me, it would sound like a good thing- just imagine being able to discuss composers with people you know, rather than having to go online. Also, imagine there being no problem for lack of funding with orchestras. Also, imagine young people being into composing future masterworks, maybe even some coming to be as great as the greatest composers of past. It would at least sound like a good thing to me...
Sorry i just realized that i completely reiterated this exact post.
Quote from: jhar26 on April 13, 2009, 05:48:37 AM
Popular music isn't 'the enemy.' People who listen to Mariah Carey wouldn't be listening to Beethoven if there wasn't any pop music - they would be listening to nothing whatsoever.
I agree with others that it's a pity that classical music isn't more popular with the masses, but having said that I have no doubt whatsoever that if there ever is another composer who becomes as popular as, say, Mozart or Beethoven that those same people who complain now about the lack of interest in classical music would argue that said composer is overrated or has sold out. 'Specialists' like to make fun of the masses for their poor taste in music, but they don't want them to get with it either - not really, because those specialists also like the idea that they know something more than the average guy.
You hit the nail on the head.
Sorry I kind of hijacked this thread but I can't sleep and got nothing better to do.
The main thing is that I feel like we all want to share this music with people. We are willing to do this in theory but we still want to be on a "higher plain" than the everyday person. Many orchestras will have a free day of music at the hall and such but that's about as far as we will go. Why can't we just level with everyone? Why are most performances of classical music in an old fancy house or a recital hall (i don't expect orchestras to play at a bar or small venue)? Why can't we try to reach out? Music is for people to listen to, am i right?
So to sum all this rambling up.
I believe that we (the classical music community) will never grow unless we stop thinking of ourselves as better than other music communities. I you met someone and they acted like they were better than you, you wouldn't want to be around them anymore. We aren't going to grow till we stop acting like we know more than other people.
Just think about it.
I swear i'll shut up now...... maybe ;D
c#
Quote from: c#minor on April 14, 2009, 10:58:43 PM
Kids wouldn't be practicing electric guitar, they would be picking up the cello or playing the piano. There would be "garage quartets".
Actually, I think the time frame 1850-1914 witnessed this. Music was part and parcel of the formal or not so formal education of both rich and poor, city-dwellers or country folks and there was no conflict whatsoever between "classical" and "pop". It was a time when Liszt was fascinated by Hungarian and Romanian fiddlers; when Johann Strauss jr. was one of the most ardent fans of Wagner; when Mahler inserted all sort of folk tunes and brass-band tunes in his symphonies; when the street organists or the porters played or whistled operatic arias; when each village boasted its own brass-band and when piano reductions of symphonies, concertos, chamber music and even operas were best-sellers.
It may not have been "the best of times" in other respects, but for the subject at hand I think it's a strong competitor.
Quote from: c#minor on April 14, 2009, 11:15:02 PM
Sorry I kind of hijacked this thread but I can't sleep and got nothing better to do.
The main thing is that I feel like we all want to share this music with people. We are willing to do this in theory but we still want to be on a "higher plain" than the everyday person. Many orchestras will have a free day of music at the hall and such but that's about as far as we will go. Why can't we just level with everyone? Why are most performances of classical music in an old fancy house or a recital hall (i don't expect orchestras to play at a bar or small venue)? Why can't we try to reach out? Music is for people to listen to, am i right?
So to sum all this rambling up.
I believe that we (the classical music community) will never grow unless we stop thinking of ourselves as better than other music communities. I you met someone and they acted like they were better than you, you wouldn't want to be around them anymore. We aren't going to grow till we stop acting like we know more than other people.
Just think about it.
I agree with you :)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
Finally, one of them asked me "what, are you a professor over at the university?"
And I replied "no, just a working man, why?".
Now this bothered me. Professors don't work?
Quote from: The Six on April 15, 2009, 06:40:06 AM
Now this bothered me. Professors don't work?
The ones I'm familiar with worked as little as possible.
They work a little more than rock musicians.
That ain't workin', that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free
Yeah, touring's a breeze.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 15, 2009, 07:22:06 AM
That ain't workin', that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and your chicks for free
Exactly the soundtrack to my last post,
Dave!
Quote from: Mn Dave on April 15, 2009, 07:28:30 AM
Yeah, touring's a breeze.
No one's sayin' that.
Quote from: c#minor on April 14, 2009, 10:58:43 PM
Yes there would be stupid stuff, "classical pop", but with this huge influx of people there would be an influx of talent and new music. Kids wouldn't be practicing electric guitar, they would be picking up the cello or playing the piano.
I think the current state of classical music in China shows that learning an instrument can be incredibly popular--millions of Chinese children are picking up the piano--but rather than any kind of expansion of the repertoire, the public limits itself to a slice of the Classical or Romantic aesthetic without any expansion of the genre.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 15, 2009, 07:51:31 AM
I think the current state of classical music in China shows that learning an instrument can be incredibly popular--millions of Chinese children are picking up the piano--but rather than any kind of expansion of the repertoire, the public limits itself to a slice of the Classical or Romantic aesthetic without any expansion of the genre.
From what I've seen and heard, that's mostly true, but there are a few fascinating exceptions like Tan Dun and Yo-Yo Ma--or are they better-known outside China than inside? ???
Quote from: jochanaan on April 15, 2009, 04:58:31 PM
From what I've seen and heard, that's mostly true, but there are a few fascinating exceptions like Tan Dun and Yo-Yo Ma--or are they better-known outside China than inside? ???
Both better known outside. Yo-Yo Ma isn't even considered Chinese (he was born in France, if I recall). Tan Dun left China in the mid-1980s.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 15, 2009, 07:51:31 AM
millions of Chinese children are picking up the piano
Those kids must be really strong! :D
Seriously, here's something I wonder about. From my limited perspective, it appears that the only instruments really popular in East Asian countries are the piano, violin and cello. So while these countries can form zillions of piano trios, how do they staff their full orchestras?
Quote from: CRCulver on April 15, 2009, 10:28:47 PM
Yo-Yo Ma isn't even considered Chinese (he was born in France, if I recall).
Far as I know, he's been a US citizen all his life, so there's no real reason to consider him Chinese.