There's a thread already, called 'Elgar's Hillside', which is devoted generally to his music, but I wanted to take a different approach. All my life, I've associated Elgar's music with landscape; there's a kind of symbiosis between the two. I can't hear his music without it evoking landscape images; I can't walk in Elgar country without hearing his music. The origins of this, I think, don't lie (as you might expect) with seeing Ken Russell's film as a lad; no - they lie further back: with Rupert Bear, and Nutwood.
As a child I was haunted by Alfred Bestall's illustrations of Nutwood in the Rupert books. I think the origins of my love of landscape painting lie there, but so does the origin of my love of Elgar's music. I had no idea, back then, that Bestall's illustrations might be based on a real place, though it turns out that, when asked, he described the Nutwood landscape as a sort of amalgam of the Kentish Weald and the countryside around the River Severn, near Hereford: Elgar country. One of the Rupert Annuals carried endpapers showing 'The Nutwood Hills'. Take a look:
http://www.hamerauctions.co.uk/posters/20.jpg (http://www.hamerauctions.co.uk/posters/20.jpg)
So it's not surprising that when I scraped together enough pocket money to buy my first Elgar LP (Malcolm Sargent's Enigma Variations on HMV Concert Classics), I was drawn more than anything else to the picture on the LP sleeve, showing a view from the Malvern Hills; though even then, I didn't consciously recognise it as the inspiration for the Nutwood Hills. I just longed for the place, without having any real knowledge of where it was, and it was only later that I saw the connection.
Since then, of course, I've walked the Malvern Hills any number of times; but the magic has never died, and the connection with the music is, if anything, even more intimate. Here's a recent photo (which makes an interesting comparison with Bestall's picture):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/ViewfromMalverns.jpg)
I've no idea how many others out there make these kinds of links. This is a long way from 'pure' music. But I do know that to stand on the British Camp on the top of the Herefordshire Beacon, listening to Caractacus on headphones as the sun sets, is to experience the music in a way that even Elgar himself couldn't have contemplated - except that of course, as he said, it was 'in the air all around us, and I just take what I want'.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/sunsetfromBritishCamp.jpg)
So that's what I'd like this thread to be about, if there's any interest in such a thing - a compilation of tales, experiences, images, of pottering about in Elgar country; bits of biography, music, topography, photography - or what have you. And here's a start.
A very evocative post, thanks. I especially like your second photograph. I am not sure whether you are wanting to confine the thread to Elgar associated material and musings. That might make for thin contributions. We have a member here who has for a very long time advocated Elgar to the point where, even those who like his music are turned off. This campaign to raise Elgar to 'Greatest Composer' status was not smiled upon by most posters. A shame, for now here, Elgar's music is not taken seriously in the way it deserves.
I love a deal of his music and although I live within easy striking distance of Elgar Country, I have not experimented in tying the landscape to his music, though do sometimes think about Bredon Hill in connection with the settings of the poem. By contrast, having visited Finland, I often found my mind filled with Sibelius as I travelled around.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k119/demster_2006/Finland%202008/IMG_7875.jpg)
My recollections of Elgar are much more often tied to specific performances I attended or took part in. Another association I hear in my head is when wandering round Gloucester Cathedral, I can hear RVW Tallis Fantasia.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k119/demster_2006/Gloucester/IMG_5712.jpg)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k119/demster_2006/Gloucester/IMG_5707.jpg)
This time last year I spent five days wandering the ruins of Petra in Jordan. On one day I was on my own and wore my iPod. I had a good range of music; but bizarrely the music that fitted best and made the hairs rise on my neck was the music from Gladiator! No genuine connection with the landscape, but it fitted.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k119/demster_2006/Jordan%202/Jordan%20Petra%201/Jordan%)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k119/demster_2006/Jordan%202/Jordan%20Petra%201/Jordan%20Petra%202/Jordan%20Petra%203/Jordanthree056.jpg)
Mike
Enjoying the photos - thank you. I do find, myself, that it's hard to listen to Sibelius without Finnish landscapes coming to mind: firs, windblown snow; wide expanses of cold water like your photo. And the
Tallis Fantasia is peculiarly polarised, I find. It can fit perfectly with ecclesiastical imagery as you show in your picture; but it also evokes (for me), visions of wild, bleak outdoor landscapes - high moors, or windswept grassland - equally well.
I'm happy to extend the 'walking' to other musical companions; it's just that my own walks are likely to be Elgar-centric.
Quote from: knight on April 20, 2009, 11:47:35 AMWe have a member here who has for a very long time advocated Elgar to the point where, even those who like his music are turned off. This campaign to raise Elgar to 'Greatest Composer' status was not smiled upon by most posters. A shame, for now here, Elgar's music is not taken seriously in the way it deserves.
That's a shame (and strange, too); but I've no wish to defend his music, nor to make 'greatest' claims for it; indeed, I wouldn't be equipped to justify any such claims. My intention is to enjoy celebrating the man and the music and the landscape in the only way I can. If I do so in a minority of one, that's OK.
So, continuing the walk a mile or two beyond the northern tip of the Malverns, there's a small cottage (it has an extension or two now) called Birchwood Lodge, where he composed much of
Gerontius and a significant part of
Caractacus. He rented it as a kind of retreat; there was more surrounding woodland then, I guess, and he always said that the little 'woodlandy' bits of Caractacus were inspired from the time he spent at Birchwood.
It's privately owned now, but still very recognisable:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/BirchwoodLodge.jpg)
Not a great photo I'm afraid; the weather was dull and grey on this trip.
Quote from: Elgarian on April 20, 2009, 12:44:03 PM
It's privately owned now, but still very recognisable:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/BirchwoodLodge.jpg)
Not a great photo I'm afraid; the weather was dull and grey on this trip.
On the contrary, I find it the best photo so far - lovely setting.
Quote from: knight on April 20, 2009, 11:47:35 AMWe have a member here who has for a very long time advocated Elgar to the point where, even those who like his music are turned off. This campaign to raise Elgar to 'Greatest Composer' status was not smiled upon by most posters. A shame, for now here, Elgar's music is not taken seriously in the way it deserves.
That's not fair. I worked hard to elevate the general admiration of my favorite composer and this is what I get. Okay, I don't have the talent to promote a composer. I accept that. As everyone has seen I have been very quiet about Elgar for a long time. I keep my mouth shut and make the life of us all much easier. Perhaps Elgarian succeeds where I failed...
Quote from: 71 dB on April 21, 2009, 08:40:25 AM
Perhaps Elgarian succeeds where I failed...
I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I just enjoy writing about a landscape, and a composer, that I love. Come for a walk, 71 dB!!! Let's tell tall tales ....
We might, for example, visit Elgar's birthplace cottage, photographed just a few weeks ago:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Birthplace.jpg)
The curious thing about the place is that although he lived there as a toddler for only a short time, he never lost his love of it, and returned to it throughout his adult life. He seems to have had some kind of agreement with whoever lived there; I remember an account where he'd gone there with someone - Herbert Howells I think. Yes, that's right. Here's what Howells recalled:
...he went through to the cabbage patch, along the path, and up to the front door; and a woman carrying a baby-in-arms came and let him in, called him "Master"...he was very nice to her...and he said to me, "Oh, do you mind first if - I want to go right up to the little room in which I was born - I want to go alone?" I said, "of course not,"...I suppose he was there about a quarter of an hour; and then he came down and said, "Come up with me now, come and see where I came into this wicked world" - this funny little sloping roof in a way awfully like the room I saw in Bonn, where Beethoven was born, except that it was probably much smaller...I remember he said, "I don't expect much from the nation, but if ever they think it worthwhile, I wish they would buy this little cottage." And he said, "It's the only wish I've got, about the nation and me."
Well, thank goodness it proved possible. I suppose it's knowing of Elgar's own love of the place that makes it so satisfying to visit; see the aeolian harp he made; the maps of his cycling expeditions; his gramophone.
Here's the website:
http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.htm (http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.htm)
Quote from: Elgarian on April 21, 2009, 11:44:22 AM
I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I just enjoy writing about a landscape, and a composer, that I love.
That's the spirit! Most enjoyable!
Quote from: Elgarian on April 21, 2009, 11:44:22 AM
Come for a walk, 71 dB!!! Let's tell tall tales ....
Thanks for the invitation Elgarian! :)
Elgar's music gives me these British images of course but for me Elgar is a feeling of humanism, safety, warth and timeless divine art.
Quote from: 71 dB on April 22, 2009, 06:57:13 AMElgar's music gives me these British images of course but for me Elgar is a feeling of humanism, safety, warth and timeless divine art.
Humanism, certainly; warmth, surely; timeless and divine, yes, that too. Not sure about the safety. I mean, there are many of his pieces that do feel safe, and I love them for that, but I'm thinking here of things like the violin concerto - that cadenza, where he's playing with feelings very close to the edge, there. The music almost dies. And
The Spirit of England? That brave defiant assertion that we may come close to despair because of the sacrifices that have been made, but even so we
will remember.
But it may be that I haven't quite understood in what context you use the word 'safe'. Really interesting choice, though.
Well, I find Shostakovich unsafe to name one.
Quote from: 71 dB on April 21, 2009, 08:40:25 AM
That's not fair. I worked hard to elevate the general admiration of my favorite composer and this is what I get. Okay, I don't have the talent to promote a composer. I accept that. As everyone has seen I have been very quiet about Elgar for a long time. I keep my mouth shut and make the life of us all much easier. Perhaps Elgarian succeeds where I failed...
You're right, it isn't fair and constitutes a gratuitous sneer. It's out of place here. You shouldn't have to take shit from a
moderator because someone else wishes to celebrate some aspect of Elgar's music. I also find the idea that your...ah... spirited advocacy of Elgar turns people off to his music unconvincing, for what that's worth.
Quote from: drogulus on April 22, 2009, 10:52:13 AM
I also find the idea that your...ah... spirited advocacy of Elgar turns people off to his music unconvincing, for what that's worth.
Whether you find it unconvincing or not, it is the case. Not his "spirited advocacy"
per se, but the ridiculous blather that historically accompanies it.
Quote from: drogulus on April 22, 2009, 10:52:13 AM
You're right, it isn't fair and constitutes a gratuitous sneer. It's out of place here. You shouldn't have to take shit from a moderator because someone else wishes to celebrate some aspect of Elgar's music. I also find the idea that your...ah... spirited advocacy of Elgar turns people off to his music unconvincing, for what that's worth.
Get over yourself. Here's what Mike said:
Quote from: knight on April 20, 2009, 11:47:35 AM
A very evocative post, thanks. I especially like your second photograph. I am not sure whether you are wanting to confine the thread to Elgar associated material and musings. That might make for thin contributions. We have a member here who has for a very long time advocated Elgar to the point where, even those who like his music are turned off. This campaign to raise Elgar to 'Greatest Composer' status was not smiled upon by most posters. A shame, for now here, Elgar's music is not taken seriously in the way it deserves.
His comment is neither gratuitous nor sneering. Yours, however, is both.
Elgarian--Welcome to GMG. As you've probably gathered by now, and as Mike kindly warned you, there is a prior history that at best polarized members and at worst created enmity and caused some to disdain a fine composer who deserves better. Please be assured that whatever crap ensues--like dB71's whining or drogulus's gratuitous slap at Knight--stems only from that prior history and has nothing to do with you, your love for Elgar, or the quality of your contributions here. Just don't go trashing Beethoven or claiming that you're a genius and everyone who doesn't see things your way is an idiot and you'll get along fine--and maybe even win Elgar a new fan or two! ;)
And for what it's worth, I agree with Don that your photo of Birchwood Lodge is a winner.
In honor of this thread, I'll cue Falstaff right up!
Folks, I have nothing to do with whatever this past history is. I just want to go for walks peacefully in the countryside and chat about some good music (and maybe even some not all that good music) composed by a man I admire enormously. I can't believe there's anything controversial in that.
Please, please don't mess this thread up with an old fight. Can't we just leave it there and go on with the walks?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 22, 2009, 11:34:43 AM
In honor of this thread, I'll cue Falstaff right up!
That's the spirit! Thanks!
I merely point out that Mike "warns"
Elgarian that the subject of Elgar has been poisoned by overzealous advocacy. For a moderator to take this line and pass it off as advice is insulting and inappropriate. The issue is not what you think of Elgar or 71dB, it's the behavior of moderators abusing their privilege by attacking a member in the guise of helpfulness. Please,
Karl, don't attempt to defend this further. The question has nothing to do with the occasionally excessive advocacy of 71 dB.
Quote from: Elgarian on April 22, 2009, 11:37:00 AM
Folks, I have nothing to do with whatever this past history is. I just want to go for walks peacefully in the countryside and chat about some good music (and maybe even some not all that good music) composed by a man I admire enormously. I can't believe there's anything controversial in that.
Please, please don't mess this thread up with an old fight. Can't we just leave it there and go on with the walks?
Address yourself to Mike,
Elgarian. He's very helpful. But you're right, complaining makes it worse, so no more from me.
Quote from: drogulus on April 22, 2009, 11:42:15 AM
I merely point out that Mike "warns" Elgarian that the subject of Elgar has been poisoned by overzealous advocacy. For a moderator to take this line and pass it off as advice is insulting and inappropriate. The issue is not what you think of Elgar or 71dB, it's the behavior of moderators abusing their privilege by attacking a member in the guise of helpfulness.
You are the one trying to poison this thread with inappropriate, gratuitous insults attacking another member.
Back to Elgar: I'm not familiar with
Falstaff, but turned right away to Naxos and am now playing their Lloyd-Jones stream. And checking on Amazon I see that EMI have reissued the wonderful Angel Tortelier/Boult recording of the cello cto and coupled it with
Falstaff. Think I'll spin that treasured Tortelier disc next--it's been awhile since I last heard this piece, one of the glories of the literature and by far the finest work by Elgar that I know.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 22, 2009, 10:54:10 AM
Not his "spirited advocacy" per se, but the ridiculous blather that historically accompanies it.
Since my background is not similar to most members of this forum, I wasn't aware how narrow-minded and brainwashed music scholars can be. They prefer living in historical lies and fear free-thinkers calling them ridiculous blatherers. The only allowed way to like Elgar is to like his cello concerto only and if yo enjoy his other works you are simply a ridiculous blatherer. I am very sorry for not being brainwashed in music schools.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 07, 2009, 03:22:47 AM
Since my background is not similar to most members of this forum, I wasn't aware how narrow-minded and brainwashed music scholars can be. They prefer living in historical lies and fear free-thinkers calling them ridiculous blatherers. The only allowed way to like Elgar is to like his cello concerto only and if yo enjoy his other works you are simply a ridiculous blatherer. I am very sorry for not being brainwashed in music schools.
So. Your posts recently have been very fine, please don't spoil your increasing reputation by regressing. Now please don't make an positive issue out of having no formal training and calling it free-thinking. What would YOU think if I called you a brainwashed acoustic engineer having no idea of how acoustice really work by issue of having been brainwashed through education?
Quote from: 71 dB on June 07, 2009, 03:22:47 AM
Since my background is not similar to most members of this forum, I wasn't aware how narrow-minded and brainwashed music scholars can be. They prefer living in historical lies and fear free-thinkers calling them ridiculous blatherers. The only allowed way to like Elgar is to like his cello concerto only and if yo enjoy his other works you are simply a ridiculous blatherer. I am very sorry for not being brainwashed in music schools.
Awww...did somebody forget to take his meds?
(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mba0304l.jpg)
Quote from: erato on June 07, 2009, 03:28:59 AM
So. Your posts recently have been very fine,
Thank you!
Quote from: erato on June 07, 2009, 03:28:59 AMplease don't spoil your increasing reputation by degressing.
I don't want to degress. I just don't like to be called a ridiculous blatherer when I have behaved better as you said.
Quote from: erato on June 07, 2009, 03:28:59 AMNow please don't make an positive issue out of having no formal training and calling it free-thinking. What would YOU think if I called you a brainwashed acoustic engineer having no idea of how acoustice really work by issue of having been brainwashed through education?
But I am a brainwashed acoustics engineer! That's what education is about, it seems...
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 22, 2009, 12:41:36 PMThink I'll spin that treasured Tortelier disc next--it's been awhile since I last heard this piece, one of the glories of the literature and by far the finest work by Elgar that I know.
How many Elgar works do you know? If you like the cello concerto you could try Elgar's Violin Sonata, String Quartet and Piano Quintet which he composed around the same time.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 07, 2009, 03:22:47 AMThe only allowed way to like Elgar is to like his cello concerto only and if yo enjoy his other works you are simply a ridiculous blatherer.
Let's test your theory.
I confess to having been profoundly moved by the following Elgar works on innumerable occasions for over 40 years:
The two symphonies
The cello concerto
The violin concerto
The introduction & allegro for strings
The Enigma Variations
The violin sonata
The string quartet
The piano quintet.
Appreciation of these following is more recent:
The Dream of Gerontius
Caractacus
The Spirit of England
The Elgar/Payne third symphony (inevitably more recent)
Then there's a heap of other stuff that I enjoy or find interesting just because it's Elgar and he interests me intensely.
I know there's been some sort of trouble about Elgar in the past, but I don't believe that anyone is going to call me a ridiculous blatherer because I love his music.
Quote from: Elgarian on June 07, 2009, 07:58:40 AM
but I don't believe that anyone is going to call me a ridiculous blatherer because I love his music.
To do that you need to blather. Love is quite another matter. A fine thread you started BTW.
Quote from: erato on June 07, 2009, 08:01:43 AM
To do that you need to blather.
Oh I can blather with the best of them. I can be ridiculous too. But I don't think either activity is associated particularly with Elgar. I can jump onto a table and do a good impression of a teapot though.
I am with you in your entire list except I swap Caractacus for The Sea Pictures and add The Coronation Ode.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 07, 2009, 09:43:08 AM
I am with you in your entire list except I swap Caractacus for The Sea Pictures and add The Coronation Ode.
Damnation! How the heck could I have forgotten the Sea Pictures!!?? Forgive me, Janet Baker, and pardon me while I shoot myself.
Quote from: erato on June 07, 2009, 08:01:43 AM
To do that you need to blather. Love is quite another matter.
You miss the point: I blather
because I love. Why else would I?
Quote from: 71 dB on June 07, 2009, 05:14:16 AM
How many Elgar works do you know? If you like the cello concerto you could try Elgar's Violin Sonata, String Quartet and Piano Quintet which he composed around the same time.
Okay, I'll play along. Let's see...a couple of concertos, a couple of symphonies, a string quartet, a couple of oratorios, a song cycle, several miscellaneous works for strings,
The Enigma Variations (of course!), about a dozen woodwind quintets, and--oh, yes!--a couple of marches! Let's say a couple of dozen. Okay...thanks for sharing!
Quote from: 71 dB on June 07, 2009, 01:48:26 PM
You miss the point: I blather because I love. Why else would I?
Knowing that English is a second language for you, I wonder if you know what a "straight man" is?
Quote from: Elgarian on June 07, 2009, 07:58:40 AMI don't believe that anyone is going to call me a ridiculous blatherer because I love his music.
Not a chance. It's never happened here before and I doubt it will ever happen in the future.
I presume some of the other works include his WW5tets? Lovely little pieces, charmingly unpretentious, don't you think?
I was in the choir singing the Opus 18 No. 1 at First Church Boston this morning.
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 07, 2009, 02:47:08 PM
I presume some of the other works include his WW5tets? Lovely little pieces, charmingly unpretentious, don't you think?
I agree they're pretty things, and interesting because they come from such an early period of his composing career, though the
sound (as opposed to the
music) of a 'total woodwind' assembly seems to make my fillings feel as if they're dropping out after a while. So ... very small doses, infrequently applied, is the order of the day. At the other end of the career arc - from the period where he's supposed to have been all washed up - there's the
Arthur suite which is nice to lay back with and dream about Tintagel or somewhere. It's far from being a major work, but pleasant enough for a soppy old Romantic like me; and bits of it found their way very effectively into the remarkable unfinished third symphony.
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 07, 2009, 02:47:08 PM
Okay, I'll play along. Let's see...a couple of concertos, a couple of symphonies, a string quartet, a couple of oratorios, a song cycle, several miscellaneous works for strings, The Enigma Variations (of course!), about a dozen woodwind quintets, and--oh, yes!--a couple of marches! Let's say a couple of dozen. Okay...thanks for sharing!
So you don't know the Violin Sonata or Piano Quintet? You don't know Elgar's many part songs? You don't know his Organ Sonata? In the South overture? The Music Makers? Romance for bassoon and orchestra? Concert Allegro and other solo piano works? Une Voix dans le Désert? Severn Suite? Te Deum & Benedictus? The Banner of St George? The Spirit of England? Etudes Characteristiques for solo violin?
Elgar was an extremely versatile composer. Knowing his works widely makes it easier to appreciate and understand his craftmanship and genius that is not limited to the cello concerto.
I've listened to the 30CD complete Collectors Edition and found substantial parts of it heavy going. But that would be true of many composers of a rank just below the very greatest like Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 08, 2009, 05:34:03 AM
So you don't know the Violin Sonata or Piano Quintet? You don't know Elgar's many part songs? You don't know his Organ Sonata? In the South overture? The Music Makers? Romance for bassoon and orchestra? Concert Allegro and other solo piano works? Une Voix dans le Désert? Severn Suite? Te Deum & Benedictus? The Banner of St George? The Spirit of England? Etudes Characteristiques for solo violin?
Ah, the
if you don't know every nook and cranny of the catalogue, you don't really appreciate Elgar gambit!
Quote from: PojuElgar was an extremely versatile composer.
Your obsession with Elgar is revealed here, my friend. Strike the adverb
extremely, thank you. Versatility is quite a commonplace among composers; you would know this, if you spent a little less time bound inside The Elgar Bubble.
Quote from: PojuKnowing his works widely makes it easier to appreciate and understand his craftmanship and genius that is not limited to the cello concerto.
I don't know if there's anything so melancholy to reflect upon, as an "Elgar snob." The Opus 18 No. 1 part-song (on a modest text by the composer's wife) "O Happy Eyes," the
In the South overture,
The Music Makers and the Romance for bassoon and orchestra, are all lovely pieces. But they're not of the musical stature of the Cello Concerto; nor is familiarity with them a necessity for appreciating the greatness of the Cello Concerto.
Quote from: erato on June 08, 2009, 05:44:30 AM
I've listened to the 30CD complete Collectors Edition and found substantial parts of it heavy going. But that would be true of many composers of a rank just below the very greatest like Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.
In fairness, making your way through the complete works of even Bach, Beethoven and Brahms would make for heavy going, whether they are "the very greatest" or not.
Quote from: erato on June 08, 2009, 05:44:30 AM
I've listened to the 30CD complete Collectors Edition...
Congratulations, sir.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 08, 2009, 05:34:03 AM
So you don't know the Violin Sonata or Piano Quintet? You don't know Elgar's many part songs? You don't know his Organ Sonata? In the South overture? The Music Makers? Romance for bassoon and orchestra? Concert Allegro and other solo piano works? Une Voix dans le Désert? Severn Suite? Te Deum & Benedictus? The Banner of St George? The Spirit of England? Etudes Characteristiques for solo violin?
Steady on old chap, I didn't realise we were in a
competition, here. I'd just like to say, for the record, and although I've loved Elgar and his music all my life with a great passion, that I haven't heard the organ sonata, the romance for bassoon and orchestra, the Te Deum and Benedictus, or the Etudes Characteristiques, myself. That's not to say that I won't one day listen to them; but having a few works unticked on my list doesn't somehow exclude me from the circle of true Elgar lovers, y'know. Anyone who's familiar with the works DavidRoss has listed has more than a passing acquaintance with Elgar's music, in my opinion. And certainly he has enough to decide whether he enjoys them sufficiently to want any more.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2009, 05:47:27 AM
Ah, the if you don't know every nook and cranny of the catalogue, you don't really appreciate Elgar gambit!
I did appreciate Elgar ever since I heard the first work by him but exploring more made me appreciate more. You appreciate Elgar your own way of course. Just know that there's Elgar to explore beyond the 2 dozen works you say you know.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2009, 05:47:27 AMYour obsession with Elgar is revealed here, my friend. Strike the adverb extremely, thank you. Versatility is quite a commonplace among composers; you would know this, if you spent a little less time bound inside The Elgar Bubble.
I don't listen to Elgar all the time. In fact only a small percentage of my listening is Elgar. Today I have listened to Rameau, Handel, Haydn and Puccini.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2009, 05:47:27 AM
In fairness, making your way through the complete works of even Bach, Beethoven and Brahms would make for heavy going, whether they are "the very greatest" or not.
I don't know if I agree, as I know at a guess about 90% of each of those composers works, and what paerticularly impresses me with them are their uniform high quality.
Quote from: erato on June 08, 2009, 06:15:17 AM
I don't know if I agree, as I know at a guess about 90% of each of those composers works, and what paerticularly impresses me with them are their uniform high quality.
Oh, I certainly agree (at least, on the basis of the smaller percentage than yours, with which I have had occasion to familiarize myself) as to the uniformly high quality, and that this distinguishes them from lesser composers of various levels and hues. Personally, the high quality of Bach's, Haydn's, Mozart's, Beethoven's and Brahms's work notwithstanding, I should find the stylistic 'monotony' heavy going if I were to undertake such an encompassing survey with any of their work. Thus, I am making my way through a 40-disc Bach "premium edition" (and, for that matter, the complete Haydn symphonies) at a gradual pace, well interspersed with other listening.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2009, 06:25:31 AM
Oh, I certainly agree (at least, on the basis of the smaller percentage than yours, with which I have had occasion to familiarize myself) as to the uniformly high quality, and that this distinguishes them from lesser composers of various levels and hues. Personally, the high quality of Bach's, Haydn's, Mozart's, Beethoven's and Brahms's work notwithstanding, I should find the stylistic 'monotony' heavy going if I were to undertake such an encompassing survey with any of their work. Thus, I am making my way through a 40-disc Bach "premium edition" (and, for that matter, the complete Haydn symphonies) at a gradual pace, well interspersed with other listening.
Agreed, in spades. It is the consistently extraordinary quality of a substantial body of work in a variety of genres that distinguishes--for me--the dozen or so masters of the first rank from all the others. But all Sibelius and no Debussy would make Dave a dull boy. Even no Telemann, no Zelenka, no Gershwin, no...Elgar. Elgar is one of my favorite composers, in that I love some of his music as much as I love any and have returned to it again and again for spiritual nourishment since I was but a young lad coping with managing a gas station in Southern California during the 1973 Arab oil embargo. (I practically wore out that original Angel pressing of Tortelier's Elgar VCC!)
My love for some of Elgar's music--like my love for music by Barber and Copland and Gershwin and Grieg--does not require that I rank him with those supreme masters mentioned above, or than I demand others recognize him as such, or run around alienating those who might share my affections by browbeating them as morons if they don't agree that Elgar was the greatest composer who ever lived and that compared with him Beethoven was a pathetic hack!
But that's just me. Others' MMV. ;)
BTW, Dave, that Hahn disc of the Vn Cto (plus) is terrific!
Quote from: DavidRoss on June 08, 2009, 07:11:39 AM
Agreed, in spades. It is the consistently extraordinary quality of a substantial body of work in a variety of genres that distinguishes--for me--the dozen or so masters of the first rank from all the others. But all Sibelius and no Debussy would make Dave a dull boy. Even no Telemann, no Zelenka, no Gershwin, no...Elgar. Elgar is one of my favorite composers, in that I love some of his music as much as I love any and have returned to it again and again for spiritual nourishment since I was but a young lad coping with managing a gas station in Southern California during the 1973 Arab oil embargo. (I practically wore out that original Angel pressing of Tortelier's Elgar VCC!)
My love for some of Elgar's music--like my love for music by Barber and Copland and Gershwin and Grieg--does not require that I rank him with those supreme masters mentioned above, or than I demand others recognize him as such, or run around alienating those who might share my affections by browbeating them as morons if they don't agree that Elgar was the greatest composer who ever lived and that compared with him Beethoven was a pathetic hack!
But that's just me. Others' MMV. ;)
Well, I certainly agree. Hindemith, Gershwin (and a slew of other Tin Pan alley greats), Reger, Prokofiev et al in infinitum provides the variety necessary to avoid wearing out this passion.
I've been dipping into a collection of essays: Oh, My Horses: Elgar and the Great War, published by the Elgar Society and edited by Lewis Foreman.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VNVTQG90L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
It's a well-researched, scholarly volume, and the first essay ('Elgar's War' by Andrew Neill) is interesting both for the perspectives it gives, and for some of the information that emerges, about Elgar's attitude to the First World War and its effect on his composing. For instance he writes about what confronted Elgar, at the age of 57, when the war began:
"Elgar faced a challenge which, if not dangerous, was nonetheless a demanding one. He had to provide what was required and expected of a major artistic figure during a catastrophe unprecedented in his lifetime and that of his fellow countrymen."
Elgar took the role very seriously. The catastrophe was now upon the nation whether he or anyone else liked it or not, and he saw it as his responsibility to respond accordingly. Neill (rightly, I think) thinks of The Spirit of England as Elgar's Requiem, and offers some useful material about the background to its composition. It was based on three poems by Laurence Binyon (The Fourth of August, To Women, and For The Fallen), and initially the future of Elgar's involvement in the project looked uncertain: Cyril Rootham, a pupil of Stanford's, had already begun to set For The Fallen to music and Novello had agreed to publish it. Novello were reluctant to publish two such works, and in any case Elgar was reluctant to tread on Rootham's toes. But Binyon tried to persuade Elgar that he had a higher duty - and this is how he expressed it, in the letter he wrote:
"Think of the thousands who will be craving to have their grief glorified and lifted up and transformed by an art such as yours. ... Surely it would be wrong to let them lose this help and consolation."
It's interesting to see the approach Binyon used here - playing on the idea that Elgar's music would be of help and consolation to people whose lives had been broken by circumstances beyond their control. There's no notion of drum-beating or jingoism - just the concept of attempting to provide the only kind of support he could. At any rate, Elgar was persuaded, and as a result composed what I believe to be one of his greatest and most unforgiveably neglected works. This is how Neill writes of it:
"The Spirit of England, the music of the war that he had been destined to write. The public could hear his reaction to a changed world. His response is both angry and sad for the waste, horror and carnage that would destroy the life he knew. Although for 'England', these pieces are for any country and its dead."
Elgar's response was based on a deeply-felt sympathy for the sorrows and agonies of his fellow man in the face of catastrophe. Put aside 'Land of Hope and Glory', and listen to The Spirit of England. It can break your heart and inspire you, both at once.
Here's my recommended recording: this is by far the best version to buy, and costs less than a fiver on Amazon. Alexander Gibson rises magnificently to the occasion, and Teresa Cahill sings like one inspired.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P4KMCW8VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247511957&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1247511957&sr=1-2)
Most interesting, thank you.
Neill's essay is leading me to revisit some of Elgar's other war music, in the first instance Une Voix dans le Desert (1915). It's the kind of thing we might tend to walk by, these days - 7 or 8 of its 12-minutes consists of a narration against a background of music - but to walk by it is actually to miss something important.
Emile Cammaerts was a Belgian poet, and wrote the narrated text (translated into English by his wife). In October 1915, Alice Elgar recorded in her diary: 'M. Cammaerts came to talk about "Voix dans le desert" - E. played it to him & wept a little. Cammaerts profoundly moved'. It's not surprising to read of the tears; the piece is heart-breaking. The setting is not far from the battlefront, 'a hundred yards from the trenches'. There's a small cottage that has had its roof damaged by a shell. Everything is silent - nothing but 'the stillness of the great graveyards. Only the crosses, the crooked wooden crosses, on the wide lonely plain'.
So the narrator sets the scene. Then out of the desolation, from the cottage comes a single soprano voice, singing: 'When the spring comes round again', looking ahead to the time when all this will be over. She sings for about five minutes, but those are five of the most moving minutes in all Elgar's music. When she stops, the narrator continues. It isn't over. Now there's only 'the sound of our boots on the muddy road'.
This kind of narration spoken over music is much of its age, and not my kind of thing; but even so, this breaks through all my prejudice. It's hard not to listen without tears.
I have two versions, but by far the best is the one on this disc. Teresa Cahill sings the central soprano section with total conviction, and the CD is worth buying for that alone:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZMVZ9A4QL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Elgarian on July 26, 2009, 01:04:25 PMHere's my recommended recording: this is by far the best version to buy, and costs less than a fiver on Amazon. Alexander Gibson rises magnificently to the occasion, and Teresa Cahill sings like one inspired.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P4KMCW8VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I have been "considering" that CD for ages.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 27, 2009, 12:44:47 AM
I have two versions, but by far the best is the one on this disc. Teresa Cahill sings the central soprano section with total conviction, and the CD is worth buying for that alone:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ZMVZ9A4QL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
That one I do have. Unknown Elgar that more people should hear. Elgar was so versatile!
Quote from: 71 dB on July 27, 2009, 08:33:20 AM
I have been "considering" that CD for ages.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51P4KMCW8VL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Speaking purely personally, and realising that it may seem absurd to anyone else, it's the most essential CD that I own, not just by Elgar, but by anyone. If the
Coronation Ode were missing, and only the half-hour of
The Spirit of England were there, it would still be the most essential CD I own - the one I would keep if I had to give everything else away.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 27, 2009, 11:09:56 AM
Speaking purely personally, and realising that it may seem absurd to anyone else, it's the most essential CD that I own, not just by Elgar, but by anyone. If the Coronation Ode were missing, and only the half-hour of The Spirit of England were there, it would still be the most essential CD I own - the one I would keep if I had to give everything else away.
Why do you think it's THAT good?
Quote from: 71 dB on July 27, 2009, 01:52:30 PM
Why do you think it's THAT good?
The best I can do to explain it is to quote from a post I made elsewhere. But I'm aware that it isn't an 'explanation'; it's just a record of my own Elgarian journey, really.
I was sixteen when I first heard the
Introduction and Allegro for Strings, which music seemed to emanate from a place that was at once deeply rooted within me, yet also seemed to imply that there was some place 'out there' that I needed to find. So I was bound to make my way to the Malvern Hills eventually (though I grew to know a lot more of Elgar's music before that), and at first when I arrived there I thought 'this is the place'. And in a strictly biographical sense, of course, the Malvern Hills and countryside are, indeed, 'the place'. But over time I realised that 'the place' was really all of England, and Malvern was a kind of symbolic focus for that. And then again, later, I realised that this 'England' was really only a kind of focus for something still deeper and more profound. (I think it's Gimli, isn't it, at Helms Deep, who stamps on the ground and says something like 'this place has strong bones'? Well, this idea of 'England' seemed to be like that.) So this 'England' itself was not so much a place as an idea - like Blake's 'Albion'. It has nothing to do with nationalism; it's partly to do with patriotism, but less so than you might think; it has something to do with landscape, but also more than just landscape - something to do with roots, and belonging, and certain kinds of ideals (noble and heroic ideals, some of them), mingled with a kind of indefinable sadness.
And the point about Elgar is that his music is like an admission ticket into this place/idea. So which of his works, I might ask, is the best ticket? The symphonies are wonderful - I've loved them for decades. The chamber works, so very very different, yet so recognisably Elgar, mark another high point. The cello concerto, the violin concerto - sheer magic, and on and on I could go. But the work by Elgar that I would choose above all others is
The Spirit of England (most perfectly and powerfully represented by the Alexander Gibson/Scottish National Orchestra recording, mentioned above, with Teresa Cahill as soloist).
It lasts about half an hour. It's hardly ever performed, I think. I suspect the three currently available recordings sell poorly (though I don't know). But here's Elgar at his most profound. It may not be his greatest music in a technical sense - I'm not competent to judge that. But I believe it's his greatest work of art, in the broadest, most humanistic sense. It's based on three poems by Laurence Binyon, but the literal meaning of the words is really only a kind of rough guide to the meaning of the whole work, which expresses Elgar's deepest feelings about the anguish of war; the nobility of sacrifice; the despair created by the loss of thousands upon thousands of brave young men, and the sheer determination and need to come to terms with that and above all, to remember them appropriately; and the frightening mixture of beauty and pain that inhabits the making of music that deals with such profound thoughts and feelings. I find it impossible still, to listen to it without tears, and without feeling that this may be the most profound work of art I know.
If someone told me I could only listen to one more piece of music, (with silence to follow forever after), I'd choose
The Spirit of England to be that final piece.
Well done, Alan...persuasive enough for me to add it to my shopping cart. I especially liked this passage:
Quote from: Elgarian on July 27, 2009, 08:14:24 PM...this 'England' itself was not so much a place as an idea - like Blake's 'Albion'. It has nothing to do with nationalism; it's partly to do with patriotism, but less so than you might think; it has something to do with landscape, but also more than just landscape - something to do with roots, and belonging, and certain kinds of ideals (noble and heroic ideals, some of them), mingled with a kind of indefinable sadness.
And the point about Elgar is that his music is like an admission ticket into this place/idea.
That "indefinable sadness" seems to me about the passing of an age...the death knell sounded by the blast of factory whistles and the shuttle of massed looms; the Great War nailing not only the coffins of the lost generation, but also of the lost age.
What truth lay between Rosetti's dreams and Mr. Dickens's nightmares? At what price England's best...and the world's?
Forester's (and Merchant/Ivory/Jhabvala/Sands's) George Emerson, proclaiming his creed: "Joy! Beauty! Love!"
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 28, 2009, 12:47:55 AM
That "indefinable sadness" seems to me about the passing of an age...the death knell sounded by the blast of factory whistles and the shuttle of massed looms; the Great War nailing not only the coffins of the lost generation, but also of the lost age.
It is, yes, and yet it's an age that never was. It's a dream that we seek to discover in the past and hope to create in the future, but which we never manage to achieve here in the present. It's a common mistake to see the Preraphaelites, Morris, Ruskin, Elgar as backward-looking. They do look back, but only in order to look
forward, inspired. The Preraphs were an avant-garde movement; Morris was a Socialist; Ruskin wanted to rebuild society anew; and Elgar, even in the despair of
The Spirit of England, still looks to the chivalric ideal as an inspiration and a way forward, however desperate the situation may seem. Blake had it aright (well, Blake
always gets it right): 'Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand/Till we have built Jerusalem/In England's green and pleasant land'. Not 'we once built and let's weep plaintively about its passing', but 'we
will build or die in the trying'. In the hands of these great men, the nostalgia is not passive, but purposeful.
Am I the only one that can't seem to comprehend either of his symphonies, no matter how hard I try?
Quote from: Elgarian on July 27, 2009, 08:14:24 PM
The best I can do to explain it is to quote from a post I made elsewhere. But I'm aware that it isn't an 'explanation'; it's just a record of my own Elgarian journey, really.
I was sixteen...
Elgarian, that was a long post and I don't know if I can say anything that matches the spiritual aspects of it. For me Elgar's music feels timeless and "everywhere". It's as if the speakers where sonic light sources illuminating everything around them like X-ray.
I think I heard
Introduction and Allegro for the first time in winter 1997. I was already 26 at that time. I didn't even listen to music actively when I was sixteen. I started at age 17. I kind of skipped the naive teenage music phase. ;D
Quote from: imperfection on July 28, 2009, 03:14:53 AM
Am I the only one that can't seem to comprehend either of his symphonies, no matter how hard I try?
They are complex works but not incomprehensible. Once you get Elgar's musical language and art, they make wonderful sense to you so keep trying! The performances on Naxos label are very clear so maybe you should try them?
Quote from: 71 dB on July 28, 2009, 10:35:44 AM
For me Elgar's music feels timeless and "everywhere". It's as if the speakers where sonic light sources illuminating everything around them like X-ray.
Well, he did say the music was in the air all around, and he just took what he wanted. You're describing something rather similar.
QuoteI think I heard Introduction and Allegro for the first time in winter 1997.
For me, it would have been about 1963/4. Elgar and the Beatles hit me both at the same time. So Elgar's been a companion for over 40 years. It's a very personal thing - I'm as fascinated by the man almost as much as by the music, and the strange thing is that it was more than 30 years before I encountered
The Spirit of England. I'd assumed it was a minor work, and not much worth bothering with, because no one mentioned it, and it was never performed. So when I finally heard it, I was completely unprepared for its impact, which somehow focused all those years of listening to his music into this heart-rending half-hour, and left me in a state of complete disarray!
But I should explain that I've steeped myself for much of my life in the British-mystical-pastoral-tradition. Blake, Samuel Palmer, Constable, Turner, Cotman, the PreRaphaelites, Ruskin, Morris - these are where my deepest art-roots are; and my love of Elgar is an integral part of all that.
QuoteI kind of skipped the naive teenage music phase.
I don't think I ever left it.
Quote from: imperfection on July 28, 2009, 03:14:53 AM
Am I the only one that can't seem to comprehend either of his symphonies, no matter how hard I try?
I don't know what would make them incomprehensible, particularly. (The first symphony is very tuneful, I think, but one man's good tune is another's random sequence of notes.) Sounds as though you might have more success trying a completely different aspect of his music - the late chamber music, for example: string quartet, piano quintet, violin sonata. They are still very 'English', but don't have that 'Great British
nobilmente' flavour.
Quote from: Elgarian on July 28, 2009, 11:55:30 AM
Well, he did say the music was in the air all around, and he just took what he wanted. You're describing something rather similar.
What's strange to me is this concept being alien to many. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why some people struggle with Elgar's music?
Quote from: Elgarian on July 28, 2009, 11:55:30 AMFor me, it would have been about 1963/4. Elgar and the Beatles hit me both at the same time. So Elgar's been a companion for over 40 years. It's a very personal thing - I'm as fascinated by the man almost as much as by the music, and the strange thing is that it was more than 30 years before I encountered The Spirit of England. I'd assumed it was a minor work, and not much worth bothering with, because no one mentioned it, and it was never performed. So when I finally heard it, I was completely unprepared for its impact, which somehow focused all those years of listening to his music into this heart-rending half-hour, and left me in a state of complete disarray!
I haven't listened to
The Spirit of England in many years. I will purchase the recommended version soon. It is time. ;)
I have been so intensively into Tangerine Dream and King Crimson these days that I hardly ever listen to classical music!
Quote from: Elgarian on July 28, 2009, 11:55:30 AMBut I should explain that I've steeped myself for much of my life in the British-mystical-pastoral-tradition. Blake, Samuel Palmer, Constable, Turner, Cotman, the PreRaphaelites, Ruskin, Morris - these are where my deepest art-roots are; and my love of Elgar is an integral part of all that.
I don't think I ever left it.
Well, I am a Finn and to be honest, Elgar is the only part of this British-mystical-pastoral-tradition I am interested of/familiar with. ;D
I will be exploring The Spirit of England soon, perhaps tonight if I can get the Pod ready in time for work. Also I'll be listening to The Kingdom, which is entirely new to me (except for Land of Hope and Glory).
I can understand the impression that the 2nd symphony makes with some listeners. Some are bored by it, and some think it wanders too much. I don't think either, and I see it as emotionally conflicted. There are these streams that run through it pulling in different directions. I think it's his greatest large-scale work for orchestra, or perhaps greatest non-programmatic work, since Falstaff might be the first choice, and a more accessible one. Among the smaller scale works I'd choose the Introduction and Allegro and Sospiri. I don't know why the concertos impress me a little less than they do others. It's not that I don't recognize their quality.
Quote from: drogulus on August 02, 2009, 07:14:53 AM
I will be exploring The Spirit of England soon, perhaps tonight if I can get the Pod ready in time for work. Also I'll be listening to The Kingdom, which is entirely new to me (except for Land of Hope and Glory).
Do you mean the
Coronation Ode, rather than
The Kingdom?
Coronation Ode is the one with 'Land of Hope and Glory in it', and it accompanies
The Spirit of England on the same Gibson/SNO CD, if (as I hope) that's the one you have. Be warned - you may hate
Coronation Ode, which is a 'pomp and circumstance'-style occasional piece. By contrast,
Spirit of England is one of Elgar's greatest works.
QuoteI can understand the impression that the 2nd symphony makes with some listeners. Some are bored by it, and some think it wanders too much. I don't think either, and I see it as emotionally conflicted. There are these streams that run through it pulling in different directions.
I think that's a pretty accurate description of it. Elgar himself was emotionally conflicted, and it comes out to greater or lesser degrees in his music, I think. Certainly I find the second symphony a much more taxing listen than the first. Incidentally, your notion of 'emotional conflict' may well be a good approach to adopt to find a way into the violin concerto. It's full of that kind of emotional conflict, not only between the 'public' and the 'private' Elgar, but also between the two 'Windflower' themes - the conflict culminating in the 10-minute cadenza that closes the last movement, where there are moments when the very music itself threatens to expire, before it finds some kind of resolution.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 02, 2009, 08:08:14 AM
Do you mean the Coronation Ode, rather than The Kingdom? Coronation Ode is the one with 'Land of Hope and Glory in it', and it accompanies The Spirit of England on the same Gibson/SNO CD, if (as I hope) that's the one you have. Be warned - you may hate Coronation Ode, which is a 'pomp and circumstance'-style occasional piece. By contrast, Spirit of England is one of Elgar's greatest works.
Yes, that's it. The Gibson disc is the one, too. And no, I probably won't go for the
Coronation Ode, except the good bits.
:)
Just listened to Gibson's Spirit of England on Spotify. Not bad, althou I prefer less distant and reverberant sonics in my Elgar.
I finished the transcoding and loaded all the new Elgar into iTunes, so it looks like I'll start listening to these tonight. It will take a few days to get a handle on so much new music all at once.
Quote from: drogulus on August 02, 2009, 11:36:27 AM
It will take a few days to get a handle on so much new music all at once.
I wouldn't hurry. It's taken me a lifetime.
Quote from: Elgarian on August 02, 2009, 12:15:33 PM
I wouldn't hurry. It's taken me a lifetime.
I don't have that long.
:) After spending a little time with the
Coronation Ode I skipped on to something more promising. I've gotten halfway through the
Kingdom and this
is interesting. Was it Boult who preferred this work to
Dream of Gerontius? I'm not ready to say anything like that but this is clearly a major work. I need time! Maybe a potion will help....one of those Don Preston dry ice concoctions that turns you into what you already are.
:D I think I'll start over tonight with the
Kingdom before moving on to the Boult/Lyrita recording of the 2 symphonies. I've heard the clips of no. 2 on Amazon and immediately knew this was a challenger to the great Handley recording.
The Spirit of England will have to wait, though I'll probably peek at it at some point.
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2009, 12:49:17 PM
I don't have that long. :)
I don't know about others but I needed 2-3 years to get a good grip about most Elgar's works.
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2009, 12:49:17 PMI've gotten halfway through the Kingdom and this is interesting. Was it Boult who preferred this work to Dream of Gerontius? I'm not ready to say anything like that but this is clearly a major work. I need time! :D
Yes, Boult understood the greatness of
The Apostles and
The Kingdom. Personally I think
The Apostles the best (and the greatest piece of music ever writen), then comes
The Kingdom and then
Gerontius.
Quote from: drogulus on August 03, 2009, 12:49:17 PMI think I'll start over tonight with the Kingdom before moving on to the Boult/Lyrita recording of the 2 symphonies. I've heard the clips of no. 2 on Amazon and immediately knew this was a challenger to the great Handley recording. The Spirit of England will have to wait, though I'll probably peek at it at some point.
Enjoy! ;)
Last night I got serious and listened to the Boult/Lyrita Symphony No. 2. It strikes me now that the one weakness in the Handley recording which I might not have caught heretofore is a blurring of detail for the sake of a narrative flow. But I say this cautiously because with this work it may not be possible to get it right in a way that doesn't sacrifice something that another interpretation usefully highlights. Boult brings out the detail in a way that doesn't seem indulgent. But you can't have everything with this symphony, which is perhaps a weakness that can be made into a strength in the rare interpretation that finds the middle way. Boult and Handley both find most of what is there in different ways. I'd encourage anyone interested in exploring this work to listen to both of these recordings for a "stereoscopic" view.
Somehow the performances on Naxos have remained my favourite with Elgar's symphonies. It's perhaps thanks to the crisp "less reverberation" abroach of the recordings that brings the details out unblurred. I like Elder's take on the 2nd sympony too. Sinopoli is my least favorite.
A recent walk (well, more of a drive followed by a few strides, really) took me to one of the houses Elgar lived in, at Malvern:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/7Forlilabelsmall.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/8Forli-Elgarshousefor8yearssmall.jpg)
This is where he composed the Enigma Variations. Dora Penny ('Dorabella' of the 10th Variation) described her first visit there:
"There was a lawn in front of the two houses divided into two parts - one had a lawn-tennis court, and there was a small tree which gave a modicum of shade on the other. The whole area was supposed to be shared by the occupants of the two houses. There was a fine view of the hills from the front of the house, and the North Hill stood up like a huge hump and seemed a good deal closer than it really was. They had called the house Forli after the Italian painter, Melozzo da Forli, who painted angels playing instruments.
It was a hot day and on the lawn in front of the house was a small bell-tent. E.E., in his shirt sleeves, was writing at a little table.
'You can't come in here - it's private.'
Hot and stuffy too, I thought, but he seemed to like it. After luncheon he suggested a walk and we spent the afternoon on the North Hill. How lovely it was up there! The wonderful air and the view - I had never been to Malvern before."
Here's what they saw - the view from the top of North Hill:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/viewfromnorthhillsmall.jpg)
On a subsequent visit:
"No sooner inside the door than E.E. fled upstairs to the study, two steps at a time - I after him ...
'Come and listen to this,' and he played me a very odd tune - it was the theme of the Variations - and then went on to play sketches, and in some cases completed numbers, of the Variations themselves...
[Dora is turning over the pages of manuscript here, while Elgar plays.]
Then I turned over and had a shock. No. X, 'Dorabella.' Being overcome by many emotions I sat silent when it was over.
'Well, how do you like that - hey?'
I murmured something about its being charming and rather like a butterfly, but I could think of nothing sensible to say; my mind was in such a whirl of pleasure, pride, and almost shame that he should have written anything so lovely about me."
Quote from: 71 dB on August 05, 2009, 02:54:37 AM
Sinopoli is my least favorite.
Sinopoli's is
everyone's least favorite...except mine. My favorite actually. His is the slowest, darkest, most brooding. Suits me 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Elgarian on November 11, 2009, 07:25:09 AM
A recent walk (well, more of a drive followed by a few strides, really) took me to one of the houses Elgar lived in, at Malvern . . . .
Beautiful, thank you.
Quote from: Elgarian on November 11, 2009, 07:25:09 AM
A recent walk (well, more of a drive followed by a few strides, really) took me to one of the houses Elgar lived in, at Malvern...
Thank you for the photos and quotes. Most interesting. I'll have to visit that area someday.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2009, 07:58:29 AM
Sinopoli's is everyone's least favorite...except mine. My favorite actually. His is the slowest, darkest, most brooding. Suits me 8)
Sarge
Oh. Recently I heard Sir Malcolm Sargent's take on second (BBC Magazine giveaway courtesy of AnthonyAtletic). It's similar to Downes on Naxos but mono. :D
I'm fortunate to live a few hundred yards from where dear old Elgar lies buried - as does his wife Alice, without whom it is quite possible he would have achieved nothing.
A while ago I had the Elgar/Payne 3rd Symphony turned up pretty loud, and I suddenly had the romantic notion that I hoped the old boy could hear it!
Michael Kennedy once said that Elgar's music contained not only "Englishness" but more specifically "Worcestershireness". Certainly to hear this music in these surroundings is a special delight. There is a landscape element to his music - the light around the Malverns can change quite dramatically from hour to hour, rather like the rapid changes of mood that Elgar himself was prone to, and which is reflected in many of his works such as the Second Symphony.
Welcome to the forum, Klaatu--or should I say, "Welcome to the Earth!"
The Worcestershire landscape-and-light link is not one that had occurred to me. It seems promising. I'll bear it in mind next time I hear the old boy. 8)
Quote from: Klaatu on August 14, 2010, 09:55:12 AM
There is a landscape element to his music - the light around the Malverns can change quite dramatically from hour to hour, rather like the rapid changes of mood that Elgar himself was prone to, and which is reflected in many of his works such as the Second Symphony.
Good point. There's also the point that Jerrold Northrop Moore makes about the
profile of the Malverns - the irregular wave up and down and up and down again that's often echoed in the music. I agree with you that this sort of conjecture isn't merely fanciful (we know from his letters how much the woodlands around Birchwood influenced his writing of
Caractacus, for example). The Malverns so dominate the landscape that they become a subliminal part of the experience for anyone who spends time in their vicinity - and of course Elgar covered pretty well every conceivable route around them on his bike.
You're a lucky chap, to live there. Please give my regards to Sir E, next time you're passing.
Hi Elgarian -
The Malverns could have an even more direct connection to EE's music than Northrop Moore suggests:
Not sure if you're aware of this, but a few years ago a Malvern businessman, Paul Plowman, put forward the suggestion that the underlying "theme" of the Enigma Variations was:
The Malvern Hills!
Specifically, Plowman claimed that the length of each variation is proportional to the height of the peaks and valleys along the Malvern Hills:
HDSP = White Leaved Oak Pass
RBT = Ragged Stone Hill
WMB = Hollybush Pass
RPA = Midsummer Camp
Ysobel = Swinyard Hill
Troyte = Hangman's Hill and the climb to British Camp
WN = British Camp and Pass
Nimrod = Pinnacle Hill
Dorabella = Perseverance Hill
GRS = The Wyche
BGN = Worcestershire Beacon
*** = North Hill
Interesting stuff, huh? Who's to say?
Personally I'm with the music critic (I forget who he was) who was adamant that he'd found a tune which, apparently, worked perfectly as the "Original Theme" of the Enigma Variations - it was:
Yesterday by Lennon & McCartney!
(And yes, I'll give your regards to Edward and Alice when I'm next passing St. Wulstan's.)
Quote from: DavidRoss on August 14, 2010, 02:00:55 PM
The Worcestershire landscape-and-light link is not one that had occurred to me. It seems promising. I'll bear it in mind next time I hear the old boy. 8)
Worcestershire--does this mean that Elgar was actually a rather saucy composer?
[runs for cover]
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2009, 07:58:29 AM
Sinopoli's is everyone's least favorite...except mine. My favorite actually. His is the slowest, darkest, most brooding. Suits me 8)
Sinopoli recorded the symphonies? With the Philharmonia? I'm inclined to seek them out...especially given the strong recommendations for and against. ;D
Kishnevi -
"Worcestershire - does this mean that Elgar was actually a rather saucy composer?"
No, that was Hubert Parry - HP.
Quote from: Klaatu on August 15, 2010, 01:56:35 PM
a few years ago a Malvern businessman, Paul Plowman, put forward the suggestion that the underlying "theme" of the Enigma Variations was:
The Malvern Hills!
Specifically, Plowman claimed that the length of each variation is proportional to the height of the peaks and valleys along the Malvern Hills:
...
...
Personally I'm with the music critic (I forget who he was) who was adamant that he'd found a tune which, apparently, worked perfectly as the "Original Theme" of the Enigma Variations - it was:
Yesterday by Lennon & McCartney!
I particularly like the 'Yesterday' solution.
The arcane business of linking the
Enigma Variations with measurements of the Malvern Hills reminds me of the chap who demonstrated that the telephone boxes in Central London can be shown to lie on a perfect logarithmic spiral: one of those situations, like this one, where the range of choices - the degrees of freedom - are so great that a spurious correlation is virtually certain to be found. I seem to recall that the editor of the Elgar Society Journal has declared he won't publish any more 'solutions' of the Enigma: can't say I blame him!
Thought I'd add a few photos to this old thread, to cheer it up a bit.
In the garden at Elgar's Birthplace, stands Elgar's old summer house (transported some time ago from wherever it was), and its thatched roof has recently been renovated. Nice place to go and sit in the shade on a hot day, and listen to some of his music:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/00summerhouse2small.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/00summerhousesmall.jpg)
Also, I don't believe I've previously posted a photo of the recently added Elgar sculpture, tucked away at the bottom of the garden:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarsculpture.jpg)
He looks almost like he's going to get up and walk around! :o
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 19, 2011, 01:23:22 PM
He looks almost like he's going to get up and walk around! :o
Yes! It feels quite strange to sit next to him ....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/Elgarcloseup.jpg)
What can't be seen from these photos is that he's gazing through a gap in a hedge towards the Malvern Hills.
A couple of statues like that in Boston which I walk past on almost a daily basis. Not in such lovely pastoral settings, to be sure.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2011, 02:21:50 PM
A couple of statues like that in Boston which I walk past on almost a daily basis. Not in such lovely pastoral settings, to be sure.
Not of Elgar surely, Karl? Eminent Bostonians?
If there's a statue of Marilyn Monroe in Chicago, why not Elgar in Boston?
But you're right . . . Brahmin eminences, in their way . . . .
Very impressed with my seven year old Felix. Just heard a brief, faint snippet of Nimrod in the background of some documentary and said 'oh, Dad, is this Spirit of England?' Not quite, but he's clearly absorbed the Elgar style!
(I must admit that I do like to give the kids a good morning full-volume blast of Spirit of England in the car on our way to school, if only because I enjoy their 'not again!' groans - all Alan's fault, that, though...)
Felix tells me, though, that he thought the composer was called Zelda. I think he is joking... unless there is an unknown oratorio called Ocarina of Time...
(http://lukearnott.weebly.com/uploads/7/2/7/6/7276461/848732.jpg)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 20, 2011, 02:08:48 AM
If there's a statue of Marilyn Monroe in Chicago, why not Elgar in Boston?
Well why not indeed? Small facsimilies (about 1 foot high) of the Birthplace sculpture can be bought at the bargain price of £1000 or some similar such sum. Or if the Bostonian budget wouldn't stretch so far, there are these busts available at £65:
(http://www.elgarfoundation.org/components/com_redshop/helpers/thumb.php?filename=product/1302092687_sou5025.1.jpg&newxsize=0&newysize=200&swap=1)
We could establish a new transatlantic trade circuit, with Elgar busts going one way, and with Marilyn Monroe busts ( :o) the other.
Quote from: Luke on October 20, 2011, 03:19:19 AM
Very impressed with my seven year old Felix. Just heard a brief, faint snippet of Nimrod in the background of some documentary and said 'oh, Dad, is this Spirit of England?' Not quite, but he's clearly absorbed the Elgar style!
That young chap is clearly getting a
real education!
The Ocarina of Time . . . thought that was by Birtwistle? . . .
Quote from: Elgarian on October 20, 2011, 03:32:51 AM
Well why not indeed? Small facsimilies (about 1 foot high) of the Birthplace sculpture can be bought at the bargain price of £1000 or some similar such sum. Or if the Bostonian budget wouldn't stretch so far, there are these busts available at £65:
(http://www.elgarfoundation.org/components/com_redshop/helpers/thumb.php?filename=product/1302092687_sou5025.1.jpg&newxsize=0&newysize=200&swap=1)
We could establish a new transatlantic trade circuit, with Elgar busts going one way, and with Marilyn Monroe busts ( :o) the other.
Very nice! Alternatively,if you are of an artistic bent,you could always make you're own. Papier mache dries VERY hard! ;D
Now,all I need is some glue,paint,chicken wire,a pile of old newspapers and a bucket...............
STOP PRESS!
BOSTON MAIL SYSTEM FLOODED WITH GIFT PARCELS OF GLUE, PAINT, CHICKEN WIRE, NEWSPAPERS AND BUCKETS. 'THEY ALL COME, MYSTERIOUSLY, FROM WORCESTERSHIRE,' SAYS MAYOR OF BOSTON. 'I BLAME HENNING FOR THIS.'
Karl Henning did it!!!!
Interesting topic in this thread!
Bumping it up! :)