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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Brian on May 29, 2007, 10:09:14 AM

Title: David Hurwitz
Post by: Brian on May 29, 2007, 10:09:14 AM
In a review of Stanford's symphonies on Naxos, he called Mendelssohn and Bruch "gutless wimps" whose music has a "near total lack of passion" and little emotional depth. Where does this horrid man get this garbage? Mendelssohn and Bruch, lacking passion or emotion? The overplayed and overexposed Bruch VC1 is, if nothing else in the world, a dictionary definition of passion - and to say of Mendelssohn - and - and - and - danger danger - overheating -

I'm going to stop talking now because if I do I will rant and be incoherent and it will be ugly. Suffice to say:

>:(

Actually let's find a larger one:

(http://msn.mess.be/data/media/52/Angry.jpg)

Or:

(http://blog.mediacatalyst.com/images/angry.jpg)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: springrite on May 29, 2007, 10:11:37 AM
I do not bother to read Hurwitz, Teachout, etc. Just skip them instead of getting upset. It is not worth it. You can spend your time and emotion (!) better by listening to Bruch.  ;D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: david johnson on May 29, 2007, 11:25:22 AM
hurwitz? ...don't think i have any recordings by him  ;D

dj
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: jochanaan on May 29, 2007, 11:34:55 AM
Hurwitz pissed someone off?  Is this unusual? ;D

David, that post is right on the mark.  Maybe Hurwitz should try to do what the people he's criticizing do; might evoke a little more respect. -- Naaah, probably not. ::)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: david johnson on May 30, 2007, 02:29:47 AM
prolly not...chuckle

dj
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Grazioso on May 30, 2007, 03:19:33 AM
I won't necessarily agree with him, but I do understand the point re: Mendelssohn, whose music, as charming and well-crafted as it can be, does come across as rather wimpy salon stuff, devoid of the deep passion and personal angst you might find from other Romantics. It's more pleasant than moving--which is not, in my mind, to denigrate it.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: The new erato on May 30, 2007, 04:09:30 AM
I think this is well put by Grazioso, but would add that I think some of his chamber music IS above that, particularly the op 81 quartet, one of the great romantic quartets.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Hector on May 30, 2007, 04:29:34 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on May 30, 2007, 03:19:33 AM
I won't necessarily agree with him, but I do understand the point re: Mendelssohn, whose music, as charming and well-crafted as it can be, does come across as rather wimpy salon stuff, devoid of the deep passion and personal angst you might find from other Romantics. It's more pleasant than moving--which is not, in my mind, to denigrate it.

Hurwitz is wrong about Mendelssohn but I think he was making the point that the composer had a wide influence that not only extended into the first years of the 20th century but sucked (or suckered) in composers such as Stanford.

The examples he cited were spot on.

However, although he implies fault, many of us enjoy these composers be they Reinecke or Stanford.

As for Bruch try his threes, 3rd Symphony and 3rd Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 30, 2007, 04:29:51 AM
The Hurwitzer is a very potent diuretic marketed by Merck-Frosst. For some people it also acts as a run-to-the-can laxative.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2007, 04:47:14 AM
Quote from: brianrein on May 29, 2007, 10:09:14 AM
In a review of Stanford's symphonies on Naxos, he called Mendelssohn and Bruch "gutless wimps" whose music has a "near total lack of passion" and little emotional depth.

Welcome to the club  ;D I used to get upset with Hurwitz too occasionally. For example, he savaged my favorite Kullervo, quite unfairly in my opinion. But I've since become used to him and expect the over-the-top negative review. I've even come to look forward to them. His rants can be very entertaining if you don't take it personally.

To be accurate, and fair to the critic, he said of the Stanford 4th and 7th Symphonies, "The problem with these symphonies is their near total lack of passion, an accusation often leveled at Victorian English music, and with some justification." In other words, those specific remarks you quote are aimed at the Stanford pieces, not Mendelssohn and Bruch. And nowhere does he say there is little emotional depth in their music (although you may think he implies it). And yes, I agree with him: relative to Liszt, Schumann, Brahms and Wagner, Bruch and Mendelssohn are emotional wimps.

Hurwitz gave the recording a 9/9. Obviously he recommends it. He's just warning you not to expect anything like full-blooded Romantic passion. That's fair I think.

Sarge
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Michel on May 30, 2007, 05:17:26 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on May 30, 2007, 03:19:33 AM
I won't necessarily agree with him, but I do understand the point re: Mendelssohn, whose music, as charming and well-crafted as it can be, does come across as rather wimpy salon stuff, devoid of the deep passion and personal angst you might find from other Romantics. It's more pleasant than moving--which is not, in my mind, to denigrate it.

What? Have you heard his fourth string symphony?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Guido on May 30, 2007, 05:51:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2007, 04:47:14 AM
Welcome to the club  ;D I used to get upset with Hurwitz too occasionally. For example, he savaged my favorite Kullervo, quite unfairly in my opinion. But I've since become used to him and expect the over-the-top negative review. I've even come to look forward to them. His rants can be very entertaining if you don't take it personally.

Totally agree.

Is it a peculiarly English trait to denigrate Medelssohn, or is this a world-wide phenomenon?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2007, 06:06:00 AM
Quote from: Guido on May 30, 2007, 05:51:32 AM
Totally agree.

Is it a peculiarly English trait to denigrate Medelssohn, or is this a world-wide phenomenon?

Well, Hurwitz is an American. I believe the British, more than any other nationality, including the Germans, generally like Mendelssohn and rate him highly. I base my opinion on not a single fact but only a fuzzy feeling from four decades of reading reviews.

Sarge
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 30, 2007, 06:18:18 AM
The Sarge is right. Brits love Mendelssohn, esp. his instrumental/orchestral works. I think the Germans love his choral works a bit more. Mediterranean people (French, Italian, Spanish) generally dismiss him.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: MishaK on May 30, 2007, 06:33:53 AM
Where is Saul when you need him...?  0:)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2007, 06:49:05 AM
Do you need him?  0:)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2007, 07:21:28 AM
Quote from: O Mensch on May 30, 2007, 06:33:53 AM
Where is Saul when you need him...?  0:)

Probably drawing magical circles around a picture of Hurwitz while uttering some kabbalistic curses upon DH's wicked soul. :D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: jochanaan on May 30, 2007, 03:47:26 PM
Emotionless wimps, huh?  I disagree totally.  Mendelssohn is proof that music can be moving without being stormily Romantic.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: stingo on May 30, 2007, 05:21:52 PM
Sounds like Hurwitz needs to listen to Abbado's readings of the symphonies on DG - passionless? hardly... quite the opposite.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 30, 2007, 05:43:36 PM
I am not a Mendelssohn fan. He's probably the only "big-name" composer I don't really like. I like the Mid-Summer Night's Dream and the Violin Concerto. Don't particularly care for his chamber music such as the string quartets, Songs without Words, etc., but I do like the Octet. Probably don't like him much because he is just for the most part really really bland.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 30, 2007, 06:00:48 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on May 30, 2007, 06:18:18 AM
Mediterranean people (French, Italian, Spanish) generally dismiss him.

You got my number there.  :-\

Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 30, 2007, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 30, 2007, 05:43:36 PM
Don't particularly care for his chamber music such as the string quartets, Songs without Words, etc., but I do like the Octet.

I don't particularly care for his string quartets either, but you should give his piano trios a shot. They seem to be a little more memorable.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Lilas Pastia on May 30, 2007, 06:38:37 PM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 30, 2007, 06:00:48 PM
You got my number there.  :-\



Well, I'm in there too (in a sense). But note I used the qualifyer "generally" ;)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Bunny on May 30, 2007, 07:20:53 PM
If I had to count all the times the hurwitzer has pissed me off, I'd run out of numbers.  However, he has also amused me -- especially with all his back tracking and side stepping around Joyce Hatto.  He's good for a laugh with my breakfast, but I don't take his bad reviews as seriously as he would like them taken.  I check out as many opinions as I can, and he's just one of many.  He is fun when he really is insulting; it's hard not to laugh at him when he gets so righteously incensed.  Classical music's very own hanging judge, hanging out there in the breeze he generates with all of his hot air.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 30, 2007, 09:09:30 PM
He gets people to talking about him, that's for sure...





Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: stingo on May 31, 2007, 03:25:41 AM
Quote from: donwyn on May 30, 2007, 09:09:30 PM
He gets people to talking about him, that's for sure...

Kind of like Paris Hilton...
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: jochanaan on May 31, 2007, 08:26:00 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 30, 2007, 07:20:53 PM
...Classical music's very own hanging judge, hanging out there in the breeze he generates with all of his hot air.
LOL I love that image! ;D But I have better things to do than read reviews.  Usually the music itself is far more interesting. ;)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 31, 2007, 09:34:37 AM
Quote from: stingo on May 31, 2007, 03:25:41 AM
Kind of like Paris Hilton...

i think she's hot :D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: david johnson on May 31, 2007, 12:39:33 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 31, 2007, 09:34:37 AM
i think she's hot :D

...and i think she should be spanked!  i volunteer...hehehehhe >:D

dj
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Saul on August 16, 2007, 07:44:51 PM
Quote from: brianrein on May 29, 2007, 10:09:14 AM
In a review of Stanford's symphonies on Naxos, he called Mendelssohn and Bruch "gutless wimps" whose music has a "near total lack of passion" and little emotional depth. Where does this horrid man get this garbage? Mendelssohn and Bruch, lacking passion or emotion? The overplayed and overexposed Bruch VC1 is, if nothing else in the world, a dictionary definition of passion - and to say of Mendelssohn - and - and - and - danger danger - overheating -

I'm going to stop talking now because if I do I will rant and be incoherent and it will be ugly. Suffice to say:

>:(

Actually let's find a larger one:

(http://msn.mess.be/data/media/52/Angry.jpg)

Or:

(http://blog.mediacatalyst.com/images/angry.jpg)

Dont pay attention to him.

He is a gutless Schmuck!
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Gabriel on August 17, 2007, 01:49:32 AM
Well, the most interesting discussion here is about Mendelssohn, not Hurwitz.

I appreciate highly Mendelssohn's music. His character and background are evident in it; you cannot expect hom to write the music of a Schumann or a Chopin. But it would be enough to listen to his Paulus to notice that we are dealing with a great composer, and most of his chamber music is extraordinary.

I leave further comments on Mendelssohn for a thread on his music. He deserves a lot more than to be an appendix of a Hurwitz discussion.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: quintett op.57 on August 18, 2007, 01:40:34 AM
I accept one criticizes a composer.

But almost every piece of music I know deserves a respectful listening.
Scornful comments as you can often read (including in this forum) are just proofs of ignorance.
Even people having listened to classical for decades are capable to write such things. Subjectivity has no limits.

Lately I read such scornful sentences toward Vivaldi, Scarlatti, Paganini, Schubert, Shostakovich, Haydn and now Bruch and Mendelssohn.

Preposterous!

Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Josquin des Prez on August 18, 2007, 07:17:25 AM
Yeah, i even remember somebody scornfully belittling the music of Bach. What is the world coming to? 
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Gabriel on August 18, 2007, 07:31:43 AM
Relativism, unfortunately.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: mahlertitan on August 18, 2007, 07:42:14 AM
you must mean this article:
"Music such as this--well crafted, tuneful, and beautifully scored--probably deserves more attention than it gets. The problem with these symphonies is their near total lack of passion, an accusation often leveled at Victorian English music, and with some justification. But this isn't entirely fair; the "gutless wimp" school of Romantic music originated in Germany with Mendelssohn, and infected scads of later German composers, including Reinecke, Bruch, Rheinberger, and countless others. The problem for England was that for several decades until Elgar came along this style had no serious competition from anyone other than Arthur Sullivan working with W.S. Gilbert. Germany at least had Wagner, Liszt, and in terms of emotional depth, Brahms.

And so we come to these charming works, composed between 1888 and 1911 but sounding as if they could have been written in 1858. Neither taxes the listener, and neither outstays its welcome (though at 42 minutes the Fourth Symphony comes closer than the pithy and crisp Seventh).

This disc is the first in a projected Stanford series, and the performances are certainly every bit as fine as Handley's on Chandos; indeed, the Bournemouth Symphony is marginally the finer orchestra (Handley has Ulster), and the sonics are as fresh and pure as Stanford's scoring is lucid. I know the first paragraph of this review may sound harsh, but there's no point in gilding the lily. As long as you don't expect anything dramatic or strikingly original, there's plenty to enjoy here. [5/29/2007]

--David Hurwitz"

funny thing, he still gave it a 9 + 9.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: sound67 on August 18, 2007, 07:31:02 PM
The ratings are for performance and sound, not for composition (i.e. unless Hurwitz deals with serial music, which he clearly loathes).
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: quintett op.57 on August 20, 2007, 09:46:21 AM
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 18, 2007, 07:17:25 AM
Yeah, i even remember somebody scornfully belittling the music of Bach. What is the world coming to? 
Josh? He just wanted to provoke, in my opinion.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Opus106 on September 14, 2008, 12:14:17 PM
I go to amazon.com to check out the details of a performance of Brahms' 'Double' concerto that I'm listening to, and I come across this...

Quote from: David Hurwitzeveryone involved seems to have given a lot of thought and care putting across a very warm, personable interpretation of Brahms's greatest concerto.

Link (http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Double-Concerto-Mendelssohn-Violin/dp/B000000S9R/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1221422681&sr=1-4)

He didn't piss me off, but I'm more like ???. He may like the 'Double' concerto very much, but saying it's Brahms' greatest is taking it a bit too far, IMHO.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Iago on September 14, 2008, 02:51:22 PM
Brian,

       You said, "David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF:

Well, that must be better than being PISSED ON.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Don on September 14, 2008, 03:43:55 PM
Quote from: opus67 on September 14, 2008, 12:14:17 PM

He didn't piss me off, but I'm more like ???. He may like the 'Double' concerto very much, but saying it's Brahms' greatest is taking it a bit too far, IMHO.

He's entitled to his opinion, and you sure can't prove him wrong.  Personally, I like both of them equally.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just micturated
Post by: karlhenning on September 14, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
That is actually a strikingly interesting opinion, and reading it makes me want to look at (and listen to) the Double Concerto afresh.

At ant rate, Hurwitz generally amplifies my normal tendency to think more of a fellow listener's likes, than of his dislikes.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: eyeresist on September 14, 2008, 07:21:01 PM
Wow, Hurwitz really is an idiot.

Quote from: Don on September 14, 2008, 03:43:55 PM
He's entitled to his opinion, and you sure can't prove him wrong.  Personally, I like both of them equally.

Both of what?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Catison on September 15, 2008, 06:42:34 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 14, 2008, 07:21:01 PM
Wow, Hurwitz really is an idiot.

Both of what?


Well, it appears Don is gone forever.  I think he was referring to the double and violin concerti.

But really, the Double Concerto is better than the other concertos.  Just look at the title.  Its twice as good!
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2008, 06:53:21 AM
Quote from: Catison on September 15, 2008, 06:42:34 AM
But really, the Double Concerto is better than the other concertos.  Just look at the title.  Its twice as good!

(* chortle *)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: The new erato on September 15, 2008, 11:18:39 AM
His latest gem:

"The viola da gamba usually sounds to me like a dying cow"

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11877 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11877)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Brian on September 15, 2008, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: erato on September 15, 2008, 11:18:39 AM
His latest gem:

"The viola da gamba usually sounds to me like a dying cow"

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11877 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11877)
Dude, that's hilarious  ;D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just dissed the gamba
Post by: karlhenning on September 15, 2008, 11:21:07 AM
But, but . . . I know gamba players.

I'm not telling them.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Catison on September 15, 2008, 12:42:02 PM
Quote from: erato on September 15, 2008, 11:18:39 AM
His latest gem:

"The viola da gamba usually sounds to me like a dying cow"

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11877 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11877)

I'm curious now.  When the viola da gamba isn't sounding like a dying cow, what dying animal does it sound like?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 15, 2008, 01:02:13 PM
Quote from: Catison on September 15, 2008, 12:42:02 PM
I'm curious now.  When the viola da gamba isn't sounding like a dying cow, what dying animal does it sound like?

Why do you assume it's either dying, or an animal?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: eyeresist on September 15, 2008, 03:38:55 PM
Hurwitz used to work in an abattoir.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: M forever on September 15, 2008, 04:15:30 PM
So did Dvořák.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Lilas Pastia on September 15, 2008, 06:01:42 PM
When was the last time Hurwitz saw a real open field with a real cow in it?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: eyeresist on September 15, 2008, 07:14:35 PM
I've never seen Hurwitz and a cow in a room at the same time.  :-\
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Brian on September 16, 2008, 05:46:58 PM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 15, 2008, 07:14:35 PM
I've never seen Hurwitz and a cow in a room at the same time.  :-\
I'm going to avoid making the obvious joke here.  ;D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Superhorn on September 20, 2008, 09:20:35 AM
    Sometimes I  agree  with  Hurwitz,  and  he  can  be   very  perceptive   about  some  composers,  and  sometimes  I  don't.  He  can  be  way  off  base  in  evaluating  the  quality of  different  orchestras   and comparing  them.  How  can  any  one  dismiss  the  magnificent  brass   section  of  the  Berlin  Philharmonic  as "weak"?.  Unbelievable.  This  is  like  calling  Arnold   Schwarzenegger  a  puny  weakling.  He  also  called  their  percussion  section  the  world's  worst,  and  a  "Joke".  In  all  my  years  of  listening  to  this  supremely  great  orchestra,  I  could  never  detect anything  wrong  with  the  percussion  section. 
   I   also  think  that  Max  Bruch  wrote  some  very  fine  music.  He  wouldn't  win  any  prizes  for  originality,  but  so  what?   I  have  the  Conlon/Cologne  set  of  the  three  symphonies  on  EMI,  and  they   are  very  attractive.  They  would  make  a  welcome  change at  concerts  from  the  same  old  Brahms  symphonies,  wonderful  as  those  are.  His oratorio   "The  Song  of  the Bell",  a  setting   of  the  Schiller poem  about  the  forging  of  a  great  church  bell,  which  I  have  on  a  probably  hard to  find  Thorofon  CD , is  also  well-worth  hearing.
   
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2008, 07:59:49 AM
Now he has really pissed me off!

A prominent HIP-advocate conducting a symphony of one of the great Romantics, and Hurwitz is pretty gentle with him (by his standards)!

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11887

What should you do to get an entertaining review these days!?

:D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: M forever on September 23, 2008, 10:15:30 PM
We are only a single generation away from conductors who either knew him (Brahms) or were trained by those who did.

Huh?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Catison on September 24, 2008, 03:03:33 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 23, 2008, 10:15:30 PM
We are only a single generation away from conductors who either knew him (Brahms) or were trained by those who did.

Huh?

Translation.  There are conductors active today whose teachers either knew Brahms or were trained by those who did.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: M forever on September 24, 2008, 08:44:23 AM
Like who?

Besides, that statement by Hurwitz betrays his fundamental non-understanding of things like performance practice and style, both modern and historical, as well as the developments and changes that happen constantly, and most importantly how these changes happen, how tradition gets transmitted and how it changes. Which is OK, after all, he is just a hobby percussionist, and Americans are cut off from these traditions anyway and often don't understand them. But then he shouldn't write reviews in which he blahblahs about that. OTOH, he caters to the ignorant who just want to read some simplistic and "strong" opinions they can copy and which make them think they know a few things themselves.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Superhorn on September 26, 2008, 06:36:11 AM
   Here I  am  in  agreement  with  Hurwitz  and   not  Mforever.
Hurwitz  is  absolutely  right  on  target  here  in   pointing  out  how  silly  HIP  is  in  Brahms.  How  do  we  know that  Brahms  would  not  have  been  delighted  to  with  performances  of  his  music  if  he  could  hear  say,  Dohnanyi  and  Cleveland,  Masur  and  the  the  Gewandhaus,  or  Levine and  Vienna,  etc,  perform  his  symphonies?   I  haven't  heard  Gardiner's  allegedly  "authentic"  Brahms  symphonies,  and they  might  very  well  be  excellent,  but  if  they  are, it  won't  be  because  of  the  period  instruments.
   And  Mforever,  please  stop  dismissing  those  who  are  less  enthusiastic  about  period  instrument   performances  than  you  as  ignorant  of   scholarship  in   performance  practice  and  music  history.  This is  extremely  irritating.
   
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: imperfection on September 26, 2008, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 26, 2008, 06:36:11 AM
   Here I  am  in  agreement  with  Hurwitz  and   not  Mforever.
Hurwitz  is  absolutely  right  on  target  here  in   pointing  out  how  silly  HIP  is  in  Brahms.  How  do  we  know that  Brahms  would  not  have  been  delighted  to  with  performances  of  his  music  if  he  could  hear  say,  Dohnanyi  and  Cleveland,  Masur  and  the  the  Gewandhaus,  or  Levine and  Vienna,  etc,  perform  his  symphonies?   I  haven't  heard  Gardiner's  allegedly  "authentic"  Brahms  symphonies,  and they  might  very  well  be  excellent,  but  if  they  are, it  won't  be  because  of  the  period  instruments.
   And  Mforever,  please  stop  dismissing  those  who  are  less  enthusiastic  about  period  instrument   performances  than  you  as  ignorant  of   scholarship  in   performance  practice  and  music  history.  This is  extremely  irritating.
   

You know what's more irritating? Your formatting of everything you post. It discourages members from reading them.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Bulldog on September 26, 2008, 01:19:25 PM
Quote from: imperfection on September 26, 2008, 01:11:22 PM
You know what's more irritating? Your formatting of everything you post. It discourages members from reading them.

I don't know what Superhorn is up to with his format, but I'm starting to get used to it.  Or maybe it's that I just finished a big drink and find everything okay.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: greg on September 26, 2008, 01:22:10 PM
I
                                   it.
          like           
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Bulldog on September 26, 2008, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: GGGGRRREEG on September 26, 2008, 01:22:10 PM
I
                                   it.
          like           

You're making me dizzy.  :D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Brian on September 26, 2008, 01:46:26 PM
Maybe Superhorn posts with a defective typewriter.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: M forever on September 26, 2008, 05:36:45 PM
BTW, Bulldon, since you asked (in another thread), there is also at least one post from me missing here in which I mentioned that Gardiner's recording is - finally - an interesting opportunity to hear the valveless natural horns Brahms wanted for his horn parts.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Superhorn on September 27, 2008, 05:52:30 AM
    I'm  not  sure  that  Brahms  actually  wanted  his  orchestral  music  to  be  played  on  natural  horns.  By  his  day,  valved  horns  were  already  the  norm.
    In  1846  Schumann   wote  his  wonderful  but   terrifyingly  difficult   Konzertstuck  for  four  horns  and  orchestra  as  a  showpiece  for valved  horns.  But  to  show  you  how  sily  some HIP  advocates  are,  there  was  a  concert  at  Carnegie  hall  back  in  the  90s  of  an  orchestra  where  the  horn section  played  the  Konzertstuck,  and  not  a  period  instrument  group.  The  New  York  Times  reviewer  said  that  it  would  have  been  prefererable  to  hear  an "authentic"  performance  on  natural  horns !   He didn't  even  realize  that  the  piece  is  UNPLAYABLE  on  the  natural  instrument !

   
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 27, 2008, 06:38:51 AM
Quote from: M forever on September 15, 2008, 04:15:30 PM
So did Dvořák.
Did he? I thought only his dad did?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: M forever on September 27, 2008, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on September 27, 2008, 05:52:30 AM
I'm  not  sure  that  Brahms  actually  wanted  his  orchestral  music  to  be  played  on  natural  horns.  By  his  day,  valved  horns  were  already  the  norm.

Of course you aren't sure because you don't know anything about that subject. Brahms stated that very explicitly. Even though valave horns had become the norm in his day? Yes, of course, because otherwise he wouldn't have had to say that.


Quote from: Superhorn on September 27, 2008, 05:52:30 AM
But  to  show  you  how  sily  some HIP  advocates  are,  there  was  a  concert  at  Carnegie  hall  back  in  the  90s  of  an  orchestra  where  the  horn section  played  the  Konzertstuck,  and  not  a  period  instrument  group.  The  New  York  Times  reviewer  said  that  it  would  have  been  prefererable  to  hear  an "authentic"  performance  on  natural  horns !   He didn't  even  realize  that  the  piece  is  UNPLAYABLE  on  the  natural  instrument !

So because some idiot in the NY Times said that, that means that every single HIP performer on the planet is silly? I didn't know that the whole HIP movement was centered around the music critic of the NY Times.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: starrynight on January 26, 2012, 01:50:42 PM
Music is probably as passionate as the performer who performs it.  A bad performer can probably make anything bland.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 07:20:29 AM
Hurwitz is harmless really, but I don't put any stock into anything he writes. He's just another critic in a vast sea filled critics.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: PaulSC on January 27, 2012, 07:33:52 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 07:20:29 AMa vast sea filled with critics.
Interesting image. Are their feet encased in blocks of cement?
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 08:03:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 07:20:29 AM....but I don't put any stock into anything he writes.

Really? Not anything?  ;D

  10/10 CHARLES KOECHLIN
Le Docteur Fabricius Op. 202; Vers la Voute étoilée
Suttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra
Heinz Holliger


"If you love crazy late-Romantic orchestral music at its most extravagant and eccentric, then baby, your ship has come in! Heinz Holliger and the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra play the living daylights out of this irascible, improbable, and ultimately quite lovable curmudgeon of a piece...Gloriously rich and natural recorded sound puts the final touch on one of the most surprising and rewarding releases of this or any other year. Keep it coming, Hänssler and SWR!"--David Hurwitz


Sarge
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Opus106 on January 27, 2012, 08:05:03 AM
Meh. A fluke at best.

:D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 08:13:44 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on January 27, 2012, 08:05:03 AM
Meh. A fluke at best.

:D

A fluke? I don't think so  ;D  To wit:

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 07:36:26 AM
His string quartets are, in my opinion, right up there with Shostakovich and Bartok. Some of the best written in the 20th Century.

HEITOR VILLA-LOBOS
Complete String Quartets (17)
Cuarteto Latinoamericano


"The series reaches its culmination in the large works composed around the time of the Second World War, Nos. 7-11, which really do constitute landmark 20th century contributions to the form on a par with those of Shostakovich and Bartók." --David Hurwitz


Sarge
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 08:18:55 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 27, 2012, 07:33:52 AM
Interesting image. Are their feet encased in blocks of cement?

No, they're in encased in large of amounts of hardened money from record companies. :)
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 08:20:44 AM
Okay, so me and Hurwitz likes some of the same things, so what? Sarge and I like some of the same things. Harry and I like some of the same things. It happens...
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 08:29:08 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2012, 08:20:44 AM
Okay, so me Hurwitz likes some of the same things, so what? Sarge and I like some of the same things. Harry and I like some of the same things. It happens...

So you admit you agree with Hurwitz sometimes? And can we take it a step further and say that, perhaps, you shouldn't entirely dismiss his criticism since, obviously, you and he are on the same page about two of your favorite composers? Why don't you take any stock in him? He agrees with you!

I happen to think he's a very good critic whose 10/10 reviews have never let me down and whose 2/9 reviews never fail to amuse me even when I disagree with him.

Sarge
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: DavidW on January 27, 2012, 09:52:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 08:29:08 AM
So you admit you agree with Hurwitz sometimes? And can we take it a step further and say that, perhaps, you shouldn't entirely dismiss his criticism since, obviously, you and he are on the same page about two of your favorite composers? Why don't you take any stock in him? He agrees with you!

But a stopped clock is still right twice a day, but you would still throw it out anyway. ;D
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Brian on January 27, 2012, 07:50:00 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 08:29:08 AM
I happen to think he's a very good critic whose 10/10 reviews have never let me down and whose 2/9 reviews never fail to amuse me even when I disagree with him.

Some of Hurwitz's 10/10 reviews have caused me to waste my time with mediocre music that he temporarily got really excited about for reasons I couldn't hear (Bruch's Swedish Dances, Braunfels' Berlioz Variations, Hausegger's Natursymphonie [though I know there are folks here who love Hausegger]). On the other hand, a really enormous number of Hurwitz's 10/10 reviews have led me to offbeat music I find completely and utterly stunning. It was Hurwitz, for instance, who put me on Pierne's ballet Cydalise a few months ago, and Hurwitz who first tempted me into trying Atterberg.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: trung224 on January 28, 2012, 05:37:06 AM
 I think Hurwitz is the very good critic, but he always has the strong bias against Karajan and Furtwängler. In his opinion, most of recording from Karajan and Furtwängler is mediocre, and with the recording he can't trash , he give it for Jed Distler  :P
   In other case, especially the not very well known work, i can trust Hurwitz
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Mirror Image on January 28, 2012, 05:43:13 AM
Quote from: trung224 on January 28, 2012, 05:37:06 AM
I think Hurwitz is the very good critic, but he always has the strong bias against Karajan and Furtwängler. In his opinion, most of recording from Karajan and Furtwängler is mediocre, and with the recording he can't trash , he give it for Jed Distler  :P
   In other case, especially the not very well known work, i can trust Hurwitz

This is what I don't like about Hurwitz. If he doesn't like these two conductors and has a bias against them, then he doesn't need to be reviewing them. I mean it's almost as if he'll review these discs and, instead of reviewing the music, he just uses them as a launching pad for his own tirades. I personally can't stand the guy regardless if we like some of the same music (are you reading this Sarge?).
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: Geo Dude on January 29, 2012, 08:05:12 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 28, 2012, 05:43:13 AM
If he doesn't like these two conductors and has a bias against them, then he doesn't need to be reviewing them. I mean it's almost as if he'll review these discs and, instead of reviewing the music, he just uses them as a launching pad for his own tirades.

Absolutely correct, and the same applies to most of his reviews about period instrument recordings.
Title: Re: David Hurwitz just PISSED ME OFF
Post by: eyeresist on January 29, 2012, 06:07:32 PM
Quote from: trung224 on January 28, 2012, 05:37:06 AM
I think Hurwitz is the very good critic, but he always has the strong bias against Karajan and Furtwängler. In his opinion, most of recording from Karajan and Furtwängler is mediocre, and with the recording he can't trash , he give it for Jed Distler  :P
   In other case, especially the not very well known work, i can trust Hurwitz

Yes, I actually credit Hurwitz with some knowledge and taste (it helps that his tastes centre on the same area of late romantic/early modern symphonism that I like), but he is subject to personal fads and ego spurts which make him write some pretty silly hyperbolic stuff, and it happens often enough that I just can't count him as a reliable critic.

Of course these reasons are the same reasons he is a "name", just as in the case of Lebrecht (but without the fraud charges!).