I love this pianist -- but I am conscious that I have heard very little by him.
I know and enjoy the Chopin (preludes) in his Prague spring concert -- though I enjoy the Schumann (Etudes) less.
In Beethoven, when he is at his best, there's a sort of inevitability about the music making -- a flow. I rate highly his PC4 with Haitink and his Diabellis and his Opus 109 -- all late Philips studio performances. And there are some nice early Beethoven recordings -- a BBC disc of Sonata 27 for example and a DVD of him in Opus 111.
And I enjoy his Liszt Transcendental Etudes. For my part, I like the way he brings out the poetry and underplays the bravura.
Anyways, suggestions much appreciated for the best Arrau recordings.
His Philips recordings of the Mozart piano sonatas are the best that I have ever heard. Slow, but beautiful and deep. I can listen to any one disk again and again and again...
Being myself a Chilean, I grew up with Arrau's recordings, so I feel as "natural" many of the features of his playing that could be described by other terms by other listeners. This situation changes, of course, when comparing directly his playing with other great performers.
I find many of Arrau's recordings to be outstanding. Among my favourites:
- Beethoven: the sonata cycle of the 60s for Philips, Concertos 3-5 with Sir Colin Davis, the Diabelli variations.
- Chopin: Nocturnes.
- Liszt: Sonata in B minor, Ballade n. 2, Études d'exécution transcendante.
- Mozart: Sonatas KV 570 and 576, Adagio KV 540.
- Schubert: Sonatas D. 664 and 960.
- Schumann: Carnaval, Fantasia op. 17.
- Weber: Konzertstück.
It is really a pity that he recorded just a bit of Bach (the Goldberg variations and a couple other works when he was around 40 years old, then the Partitas shortly before his death) and almost no Haydn (the F minor variations, an old recording that I haven't heard).
He recorded another Beethoven cycle in the 1980s, almost complete (excepting the Hammerklavier and the Moonlight sonatas). It is an irregular cycle, with really great moments (for example, I find the last three sonatas to be very beautifully played) and some others not so great (v. gr., op. 2 n. 3). But what is remarkable of this cycle, beyond the specific performances, is that it shows Arrau's magnificent tone most vividly than, for example, the previous Beethoven cycle.
His Mozart recordings, on the other hand, are to be explored with care (in all the senses of this word). They are not precisely HIP in the way we understand it today, but Arrau deliberately recorded them trying to make the piano sound as
cantabile as possible, considering that Mozart was eminently a vocal composer.
If we are writing about the same performance, Mandryka, the DVD of Beethoven's op. 111 was, if I'm not mistaken, recorded in 1970, so it is far from being "early".
Anyway, I'm sure that our keyboard specialists of GMG will have a lot more to say than me in this thread. And most of all if some of them had the opportunity to hear him performing live, a joy I never had, for when he visited Chile for the last time in 1984 I was a small boy not yet interested by these events of great music. But I remember very clearly when he passed away in 1991, when his body was brought back to Chile to be honoured with national hommages and finally buried in his native city of Chillán. He will be forever one of our musical glories.
Quote from: Mandryka on May 11, 2009, 10:07:26 AM
I didn't know about this -- is it available anywhere?
The 60s Beethoven set is the one that's commonly available -- personally I've never seen the 80s set. The 60s set is currently in this box, along with the Haitink PCs, and some variations etc. -- a great box.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hc0QrZsBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VD5YTFNEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
The 80s cycle is around. Amazon has it for a paltry $250. It's much cheaper in Japan. I'm contemplating getting it. This reminds me that I should revisit the 60s cycle.
I must confess that I've listened to relatively little Arrau outside his Beethoven. I'm thinking some Schumann might be the way to go.
Arrau's Chopin Nocturnes are wonderful, very romantic, syrupy performances.
His Liszt Etudes are surprisingly powerful and impressive. I later found out that his teachers lineage extends directly back to Liszt himself.
His Beethoven sounds too mature for me, not youthful enough. The 4th concerto with Haitink is superb though, fingernail accompaniment and all. ;D
Early Arrau is superb and his playing then was very much in the virtuoso vein--he became famous as a young man for his interp of the Balakirev Islamey...and it still impresses today, but almost anything before 1960 or 1962 is well worth a listen. His Liszt piano concerto #1 with Ormandy's a classic, as are some of the live sonata recordings he did with Szigeti. Both EMI and U.S. Columbia put out retrospective box sets of early recordings for Arrau's 80th birthday and they are treasures; these were LP only...not sure what corresponds in CD.
After the early 1960s, his approach and style changed drastically, and whether you respond favorably depends strictly on your own taste. I waver myself. In live performances, I never count Arrau out, but in the studio it's a different story and not always a happy one for my ears. In general, he slowed down a good deal, and many fans like to tout this as profound, grand, etc., and in truth SOMETIMES it is.
Liszt is a good example. Arrau has Liszt down beautifully in his stereo Philips recordings of assorted Annees de Pelerinage, etc., where charm and eloquence work extremely well IMO. And his concert performance of the Transcendental Etudes is pretty spiffy. (In other Liszt repertoire, I tend to prefer Richter, Cziffra, Berman and others.)
The Chopin nocturnes that George mentioned are certainly worth listening to, though I'm personally less enamored of them than I once was. (Rubinstein and Moravec are the preferred pianists for me in these works.)
Beyond these, later Arrau isn't usually my cup of tea.
Example: while there are some positive exceptions, I generally do NOT care for Arrau's Beethoven sonatas from the mid-1960s. I had a particularly negative reaction to his Waldstein, which critics generally gush about but which I find hard to even listen to. Compared in this piece, say, to Solomon, Arrau's phrasing is more mannered without being more convincing, his fingering in fast sections seems less secure and his segues are downright awkward. But as I say, my opinion runs counter to the critics and, as always, YMMV too.
FWIW,
Dirk
Quote from: Mandryka on May 11, 2009, 07:41:09 AM
I love this pianist -- but I am conscious that I have heard very little by him.
I know and enjoy the Chopin (preludes) in his Prague spring concert -- though I enjoy the Schumann (Etudes) less.
In Beethoven, when he is at his best, there's a sort of inevitability about the music making -- a flow. I rate highly his PC4 with Haitink and his Diabellis and his Opus 109 -- all late Philips studio performances. And there are some nice early Beethoven recordings -- a BBC disc of Sonata 27 for example and a DVD of him in Opus 111.
And I enjoy his Liszt Transcendental Etudes. For my part, I like the way he brings out the poetry and underplays the bravura.
Anyways, suggestions much appreciated for the best Arrau recordings.
You seem to have a similar take on Arrau that I do - the LvB Diabellis, Op 111 on DVD (which one) the Chopin Preludes from Prague and the Liszt TEs. The other recordings I'm happy to leave to others. I'd be interested in the early 50s Diabellis just for a comparison. Arrau is the only pianist I've heard who truly makes the variations sound like an integral set as opposed to 33 disparate works based on the same theme and key.
Quote from: Holden on October 28, 2009, 01:07:51 AM
I'd be interested in the early 50s Diabellis just for a comparison. Arrau is the only pianist I've heard who truly makes the variations sound like an integral set as opposed to 33 disparate works based on the same theme and key.
Same as with the Chopin Preludes.
Here is an excellent recording I have owned for many years. It may be OOP ...
I know those -- I think he is great in the Dante sonata.
The Chopin/Liszt I need to listen again; I remember not being much taken by the music in the past, but maybe I will think differently now. Thanks for the prompt.
Other nice Arrau Liszt besides the Transcendental Etudes -- Ballade 2 (v good on his 80th birthday DVD) and the B Minor sonata in a live version from the 70s (I think it's his earliest recording of it) -- it's on his GPOC.
Somehow, more than anyone else I know, Arrau makes the banal passages in Liszt sound interesting -- all the repeated chords and tremolos.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2009, 07:59:30 AM
I know those -- I think he is great in the Dante sonata.
The Chopin/Liszt I need to listen again; I remember not being much taken by the music in the past, but maybe I will think differently now. Thanks for the prompt.
Other nice Arrau Liszt besides the Transcendental Etudes -- Ballade 2 (v good on his 80th birthday DVD) and the B mainor sonata in a live version from the 70s (I think its his earliest recording of it) -- it's on his GPOC.
Somehow, more than anyone else I know, Arrau makes the banal passages in Liszt sound interesting -- all the repeated chords and tremelos.
Garrick Ohlsson also happened to be a student of Claudio Arrau ...
http://arrauhouse.org/
One of the "big" recitals I vividly remember from my late teens was Claudio Arrau playing the Liszt's Sonata. From his big name status and dashing photos I imagined a grand figure. But coming into the stage was that very frail man, walking with some difficulty towards the piano. He bowed slowly and seated lowering his head. Nothing was preparing us for what it was to come. Those doomed first notes and silences of the Sonata were like gigantic waves in that big concert hall. Rarely I heard such opulent piano tone and "sound". Every note had life and each phrase was full with keen dramatic expression.
We all know the experience of listening to a live musical performance is unique. We are not only listening to a record of what we didn't really live. There we feel the risk and frisson of an unpredictable moment. We connect (or not) with the interpreter and in a way we also help to create the humane ambiance that makes the performance. And after we may recollect it from our memory.
This is to say that my first remembrance of Arrau does not come from the record. His live imprint is always in my mind when I (re)discover his legacy. And during these years I always keep looking for the magic sound and intensity of that Liszt's Sonata. Below are some memory aids I use.
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cl600/l655/l65545f6wp3.jpg) (http://www.audaud.com/audaud/JAN-FEB05/reissues/ArrauBee.jpg) (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:EeuPHwlAwPxWSM:http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/4/a/c/028946471326_300.jpg) (http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm200/m221/m22150d7l6l.jpg) (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/musicartscd1205.jpg)
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4782132.jpg)
This is now being reissued; I think it must be the Philips recording being reissued on DG due to the expiry of the rights to the Philips name.
Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor, Op. 13 "Pathétique"
Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor, Op. 57 "Appassionata"
Piano Sonata No. 14 in C sharp minor, Op. 27 No. 2 "Moonlight"
Rondo in G major, Op. 51 No. 2
A generously-filled disc (75') in which the great Chilean pianist Claudio Arrau performs three popular Beethoven sonatas taken from his complete cycle recorded in the 1960s; also included is Arrau's recording of the rarely-heard Rondo, Op. 51 No. 2
His Columbia recordings have been issued on CD and are really interesting I think. The Chopin Preludes -- studio from the 1950s -- may well be his best performance of Op 28 on record. And there is an excellent Kreisleriana too.
Other material is less successful. There is a relatively mainstream Waldstein which doesn't approach the profundity and originality and sweep of his 1963 one. IMO that Waldstein is ne plus ultra.
And there is a particularly spooky Le Gibet.
Anyway -- the Columbia box is well worth hearing IMO.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 06, 2010, 09:15:44 AM
His Columbia recordings have been issued on CD and are really interesting I think. The Chopin Preludes -- studio from the 1950s -- may well be his best performance of Op 28 on record. And there is an excellent Kreisleriana too.
Other material is less successful. There is a relatively mainstream Waldstein which doesn't approach the profundity and originality and sweep of his 1963 one. IMO that Waldstein is ne plus ultra.
And there is a particularly spooky Le Gibet.
Anyway -- the Columbia box is well worth hearing IMO.
I'd be very interested, based on my experience, derived from the 10" lp shown, which is superb.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 06, 2010, 09:15:44 AM
His Columbia recordings have been issued on CD and are really interesting I think. The Chopin Preludes -- studio from the 1950s -- may well be his best performance of Op 28 on record. And there is an excellent Kreisleriana too.
Eh, you're familiar with the 1960 Prague performance of Chopin's Preludes? On APR?
If you are, and you still prefer the 1950 studio recording, that would be a first.
Quote from: Herman on March 07, 2010, 09:48:47 AM
Eh, you're familiar with the 1960 Prague performance of Chopin's Preludes? On APR?
If you are, and you still prefer the 1950 studio recording, that would be a first.
Well, the question prompted me to check.
The Columbia one is good, but the Prague one is superior in every way, including the recorded sound. The Prague one is livelier and more intense. It flows better from one prelude to the next and each prelude is better shaped.
So you were right to pick up that point.
Hi all,
I have a question for all those Beethovenians... not unlike the one I asked about Gould and Bach's WTC recently
Is this version of the Beethoven sonatas :
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Concertos/dp/B0017P4C9W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1282235121&sr=8-1
the same as this:
http://www.amazon.com/32-Piano-Sonatas-Eroica-Variations/dp/B00000E4TV/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282235398&sr=8-9
I think Arrau recorded them twice but info online is skimpy in these matters. The later set from the 80s seems to be another CD set with a grey cover from 'Heritage' ?
Thanks for your help.
J
I believe that the two you have pointed out are, in fact, different packagings of the same performances by Arrau, originally recorded in the mid-1960s. The recordings from the late 1980s appear to be in this set:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Claudio-Arrau/dp/B00007L64T/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282236478&sr=8-6
This, at least, is borne out by the personal reviewers' comments at the bottom of each Amazon page listing.
If you are already an Arrau fan and determined to get his Beethoven, it's probably the earlier set that you want. Me, I do have copies of his '60s cycle but must admit that--with a handful of exceptions--I dislike his way with the sonatas. But that's just me. Fact is, with the exception of some Liszt and Chopin, Arrau's recordings after the early 1960s do almost nothing for me at all (whereas I like his earlier recordings quite a bit...go figure).
Good luck, whatever your quest may be.
Cheers,
Dirk
I think they both contain the 60s cycle. As far as I know the 80s recordings he made for Philips is only available branded as "Arrau Heritage"
The 60s set is my favourite Beethoven survey. There are no duds: every sonata is played in an interesting way, often intense, always stimulating, sometimes challenging. And the sound quality is excellent.
QuoteI think they both contain the 60s cycle. As far as I know the 80s recordings he made for Philips is only available branded as "Arrau Heritage"
The 60s set is my favourite Beethoven survey. There are no duds: every sonata is played in an interesting way, often intense, always stimulating, sometimes challenging. And the sound quality is excellent.
I wonder whether there exists an even earlier cycle? I think I once read something to that effect in Gramophone, but I'm not sure. At least there are some earlier recordings: I have the Waldstein and Les adieux sonatas on the defunct label "united archives"; and Sonatas Nos 24 and 31 on the Arrau/Klemperer Testament recording of Beethoven Concertos 3-5.
Quote from: ongakublue on August 19, 2010, 08:32:35 AM
Is this version of the Beethoven sonatas :
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Concertos/dp/B0017P4C9W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1282235121&sr=8-1
the same as this:
http://www.amazon.com/32-Piano-Sonatas-Eroica-Variations/dp/B00000E4TV/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282235398&sr=8-9
I think Arrau recorded them twice but info online is skimpy in these matters. The later set from the 80s seems to be another CD set with a grey cover from 'Heritage' ?
The 2 box-sets you refer - Philips "Arrau Edition" (432301-2 / Germany) and the Philips "Beethoven - The Complete Piano Sonatas & Concertos - Claudio Arrau" (462358-2 / Germany) - include the same 1960's recordings of the sonatas (1962-1966, 1968)
The Philips "Arrau Heritage" ( 473782-2 – France) mostly includes latter 1980's recordings (1984-1989, 1990); only the Moonlight and the Hammerklavier were taken from the previous 1960's recordings.
And for those who would like to explore there are many other more "occasional" recordings (studio and live) of the LVB Sonatas by Arrau published in CD - 1930's (Music&Arts) 1950's (EMI; United Archives; Aura; Testament), 1960's (BBC), 1970's (APR; Hanssler; Aura), 1980's (Orfeo; Music&Arts).
Maybe the sonata which divides opinion the most is the Waldstein. I have three of his recordings.
1947 on United Archives
1956 on EMI
1963 on Philips
There is also a late one in the Heritage Edition and a DVD
I like the 1963 one most -- I just find the first movement a bit less challenging than in the earlier ones.
My favourite Beethoven recording from him isn't on Cd at all -- it's the Op 111 on DVD from VAI.
In the arietta he takes the spiritual "time standing still" approach -- and he does it very well.
Not to be confused with his later DVD: I can't watch it -- it shows how his aging fingers are having difficulty managing the trill.
There's another Op 111 on APR which I haven't heard. The two APR recordings I have heard are very good though.
Another favourite is the 1952 Eroica variations. If you get the Philips set it may be worth supplementing it with that -- it's easily and cheaply got here. AFAIK this is the only place to get it and it is very good.
http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/006/Music/8f/69/32/mzi.fssraywj.100x100-75.jpg
Hey thanks a lot for the info guys. Most helpful.
I personally love the Waldstein. I think my favourite Beethoven sonata and I was impressed by Arrau's version from the 60s.
8)
Quote from: Mandryka on August 19, 2010, 11:58:18 AM
My favourite Beethoven recording from him isn't on Cd at all -- it's the Op 111 on DVD from VAI.
In the arietta he takes the spiritual "time standing still" approach -- and he does it very well.
Not to be confused with his later DVD: I can't watch it -- it shows how his aging fingers are having difficulty managing the trill.
There's another Op 111 on APR which I haven't heard. The two APR recordings I have heard are very good though.
I have the EMI Classic Archives Op 111 which is the best I've ever heard. It's the "time standing still" Arietta that really makes this recording such a stand out. He recorded this in 1970 and if it is that other DVD you are talking about I am puzzled as to why you don't like it. Is the VAI so much better?
I own the APR Op 111 and while it's an excellent performance it doesn't match the DVD I watched (and listened to).
Thanks for telling me about the APR Op111 Holden.
I must say I do prefer the VAI one If you want me to be clear wbout why, that's a different matter. You'll have to give me a few days to listen to the both of them.
In the meantime, try the VAI Arietta for yourself.
http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=fcfcab1
Quote from: Mandryka on August 20, 2010, 01:59:46 AM
Thanks for telling me about the APR Op111 Holden.
I must say I do prefer the VAI one If you want me to be clear wbout why, that's a different matter. You'll have to give me a few days to listen to the both of them.
In the meantime, try the VAI Arietta for yourself.
http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=fcfcab1
Thanks for the listen. I too will have to go back to my EMI DVD for a comparison. One thing that does strike me is the remarkable consistency of performance by Arrau of this sonata. Two other performances of the Arietta have this slower approach and are well worth a listen. Barenboim's EMI recording and the one by Ernst Levy.
Anyone here who shares my enthusiasm for Arrau's recordings of Mozart sonatas? Usually I don't like Mozart's piano sonatas too much, but when played by Arrau I can really enjoy (many of) them.
Sorry - Just saw that the Mozart has been mentioned in this thread one year ago already ..
Quote from: ongakublue on August 20, 2010, 12:36:31 AM
Hey thanks a lot for the info guys. Most helpful.
I personally love the Waldstein. I think my favourite Beethoven sonata and I was impressed by Arrau's version from the 60s.
8)
Some other Waldsteins for you to check out.
Rudolf Serkin (mono)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/132112.jpg)
Dubravka Tomsic
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/73/d0/d770810ae7a0902bc4da9110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Kovacevich
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/05/53274.JPG)
Quote from: Holden on August 20, 2010, 02:38:05 PM
Some other Waldsteins for you to check out.
Rudolf Serkin (mono)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/132112.jpg)
Strongly seconded!
Also (and I know you know this, Holden, but I will share it for the OP's benefit), Hofmann's live Casimir recital performance is very special. It's on Marston Records.
Quote from: Holden on August 20, 2010, 01:49:45 PM
Two other performances of the Arietta have this slower approach and are well worth a listen. Barenboim's EMI recording and the one by Ernst Levy.
Have you heard Ugorski? Or Elly Ney?
Quote from: ongakublue on August 20, 2010, 12:36:31 AM
Hey thanks a lot for the info guys. Most helpful.
I personally love the Waldstein. I think my favourite Beethoven sonata and I was impressed by Arrau's version from the 60s.
8)
The thing about his Waldstein which I love is the power of the climax in the first movement. And the way he doesn't play it like a fast bravura piece. The spiritual intensity of the movement comes from the interaction among the notes, rather than from the tempo.
Quote from: Verena on August 20, 2010, 02:01:51 PM
Anyone here who shares my enthusiasm for Arrau's recordings of Mozart sonatas? Usually I don't like Mozart's piano sonatas too much, but when played by Arrau I can really enjoy (many of) them.
Sorry - Just saw that the Mozart has been mentioned in this thread one year ago already ..
Yes. I like Arrau's Mozart because he takes the music seriously. It's not light elegant comedy.
I expect you know the recordings on Orfeo.
QuoteYes. I like Arrau's Mozart because he takes the music seriously. It's not light elegant comedy.
I expect you know the recordings on Orfeo.
Yes, I know these. They are great.
If I'm not mistaken, Arrau's Beethoven set (EMI) of the 1950s was not complete. The set of the 1980s wasn't complete either, as he didn't record the Moonlight and the Hammerklavier (this set is currently available in the Heritage set only). So the only complete Arrau Beethoven set we have is the one recorded in the 1960s.
Hello all,
I've lurked at this wonderful forum for quite a while, but thought I would unlurk here :)
Although I have Arrau's wonderful Debusey Preludes and Images on Phillips, I have not explored his Beethoven previously, due to them being OOP and very expensive.
However I heard an extract from Arrau's Diabelli (variation 31) on youtube recently and was floored by it- I have Brendel (88), Kovacevich (68) and Anderszewski, all of whom I admire for different reasons, but this was just of a different order in terms of transcendent feeling-I found it profoundly moving.
From doing a little research I think what I heard must have been from Arrau's 1952 recording of the Diabelli. I also understand that this is available in the 100th Aniversary boxset or the Arrau Heritage 1980's Beethoven piano cycle boxset.
Does anyone here have this 1952 recording. If so I would love if they could share their thoughts.
David
Quote from: david-jw on August 27, 2010, 12:46:00 AM
Hello all,
I've lurked at this wonderful forum for quite a while, but thought I would unlurk here :)
Although I have Arrau's wonderful Debussy Preludes and Images on Phillips, I have not explored his Beethoven previously, due to them being OOP and very expensive.
However I heard an extract from Arrau's Diabelli (variation 31) on youtube recently and was floored by it- I have Brendel (88), Kovacevich (68) and Anderszewski, all of whom I admire for different reasons, but this was just of a different order in terms of transcendent feeling-I found it profoundly moving.
From doing a little research I think what I heard must have been from Arrau's 1952 recording of the Diabelli. I also understand that this is available in the 100th Aniversary boxset or the Arrau Heritage 1980's Beethoven piano cycle boxset.
Does anyone here have this 1952 recording. If so I would love if they could share their thoughts.
David
Welcome David :)
I think that Arrau's Debussy is always searching and sometimes wonderful -- in the second half of Book one there are some very fine preludes. And in Book 2 too, he is even more successful . The tempos are at times a bit on the slow side for me though. Still. that may not be too problematic in these pieces. Best to be a glass half full person:
«Les fées sont d'exquises danseuses» is, in his hands, quite exquisite.
The 50s Arrau diabellies are memorably good in the C minor variations towards the end. I think you can get it on Naxos now -- and well worth having if you are interested in this music.
Quote from: david-jw on August 27, 2010, 12:46:00 AM
Hello all,
I've lurked at this wonderful forum for quite a while, but thought I would unlurk here :)
Although I have Arrau's wonderful Debusey Preludes and Images on Phillips,
I agree. His Debussy is very nice indeed. :)
Welcome to GMG! :)
Hi George and Mandryka,
thanks for the welcome.
David
Quote from: david-jw on August 27, 2010, 12:46:00 AM
Hello all,
I've lurked at this wonderful forum for quite a while, but thought I would unlurk here :)
Although I have Arrau's wonderful Debusey Preludes and Images on Phillips, I have not explored his Beethoven previously, due to them being OOP and very expensive.
However I heard an extract from Arrau's Diabelli (variation 31) on youtube recently and was floored by it- I have Brendel (88), Kovacevich (68) and Anderszewski, all of whom I admire for different reasons, but this was just of a different order in terms of transcendent feeling-I found it profoundly moving.
From doing a little research I think what I heard must have been from Arrau's 1952 recording of the Diabelli. I also understand that this is available in the 100th Aniversary boxset or the Arrau Heritage 1980's Beethoven piano cycle boxset.
Does anyone here have this 1952 recording. If so I would love if they could share their thoughts.
David
His 1960s Diabellis are also excellent. What Arrau manages to do (and I haven't heard any other pianist do this) is make them seem like a complete/linked set as opposed to 34 disparate little works. And like the 50s recording the final variations are just jaw droppingly good playing.
What a pity it was that Arrau got into such trouble in that public lavatory in Sydney! We remember the publicity very well as it happened at a time when we ourself were a youth coming to terms with homo-sexualism. On the night of Arrau's first appearance on the stage of Sydney Town Hall following his arrest, the sympathetic audience gave him a standing ovation even before he had time to seat himself at the pianoforte, which was encouraging to ourself as well as to Senor Arrau.
Richard Adeney that fine flautist relates in his recent autobiography "Flute" an amusing anecdote: "The LPO played several concerts with Claudio Arrau, the famous pianist. He was a quiet and self-controlled man, but, perhaps because of Pritchard's relaxing presence, during a rehearsal Arrau became entranced with one of the first violins, a blond young man. Because he was gazing so adoringly to his left away from the keyboard, he seemed to be hitting any old note, quite unlike his usual style of playing."
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/Kerfoops/Violinist.jpg)
"The violinist, a conventional married man, was acutely embarrassed. 'What shall I do?' he asked me after the rehearsal. 'What's going to happen?' 'Well,' I said, 'don't do anything. He can't rape you on the platform in the middle of the concert. Don't be such a worry-guts.' There was no rape, but there was more gazing - and an awful lot of wrong notes."
Quote from: Sydney Grew on August 27, 2010, 05:09:04 PM
What a pity it was that Arrau got into such trouble in that public lavatory in Sydney! We remember the publicity very well as it happened at a time when we ourself were a youth coming to terms with homo-sexualism. On the night of Arrau's first appearance on the stage of Sydney Town Hall following his arrest, the sympathetic audience gave him a standing ovation even before he had time to seat himself at the pianoforte, which was encouraging to ourself as well as to Senor Arrau.
Richard Adeney that fine flautist relates in his recent autobiography "Flute" an amusing anecdote: "The LPO played several concerts with Claudio Arrau, the famous pianist. He was a quiet and self-controlled man, but, perhaps because of Pritchard's relaxing presence, during a rehearsal Arrau became entranced with one of the first violins, a blond young man. Because he was gazing so adoringly to his left away from the keyboard, he seemed to be hitting any old note, quite unlike his usual style of playing."
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp233/Kerfoops/Violinist.jpg)
"The violinist, a conventional married man, was acutely embarrassed. 'What shall I do?' he asked me after the rehearsal. 'What's going to happen?' 'Well,' I said, 'don't do anything. He can't rape you on the platform in the middle of the concert. Don't be such a worry-guts.' There was no rape, but there was more gazing - and an awful lot of wrong notes."
So Claudio Arrau and Sviatoslav Richter had something else in common besides both being world-renown pianists ... >:D
Quote from: Holden on August 27, 2010, 02:29:59 PM
His 1960s Diabellis are also excellent. What Arrau manages to do (and I haven't heard any other pianist do this) is make them seem like a complete/linked set as opposed to 34 disparate little works. And like the 50s recording the final variations are just jaw droppingly good playing.
Hi Holden,
thanks for this. I remember you mentioning this in a previous post (his ability to make it cohere into one whole work).
I'm intrigued that you mention his 1960's Diabelli- so far I have only been able to find 1952 and 1985(?) versions. Is the 1960's version packaged with the 1960's PS cycle big box:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Complete-Piano-Sonatas-Concertos/dp/B00000C2F7/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282981358&sr=1-1
Mandryka- thank you for pointing out the Naxos route. unfortuantly I can only find it by download only- so I have gone for the arrau heritage set (and am hoping that his 1980's PS cycle might be more enjoyable than some of the reviews :)
Very keen to hear this now, particualrly as you have both refered to the late variations being so well handled. For me, its this transition/transfiguration into the world of the last variations that give the work its power.
thanks
David
Quote from: david-jw on August 27, 2010, 11:48:02 PM
Hi Holden,
thanks for this. I remember you mentioning this in a previous post (his ability to make it cohere into one whole work).
I'm intrigued that you mention his 1960's Diabelli- so far I have only been able to find 1952 and 1985(?) versions. Is the 1960's version packaged with the 1960's PS cycle big box:
David - I stand corrected. This recording is from 1985 which astonishes me considering how good it is.
Holden,
thanks for clarifying- its proved so confusing, as there are a number of OOP versions/second hand sellers with out album covers or recording details on Amazon, that its easy for me to get bewildered when trying to aquire arrau versions. The box sets are couter intuitive it would seem- 1980 ps cycle has the 53 diabelli and the 1960's ps cycle has the 1980's version!
I've found a reasonably priced single disc of the stereo diabelli, so I can't wait to hear both his versions and compare.
Was the stereo one the version you refer to hearing on a holiday in NZ?
thanks for your help
David
Quote from: david-jw on August 28, 2010, 01:35:52 AM
Holden,
thanks for clarifying- its proved so confusing, as there are a number of OOP versions/second hand sellers with out album covers or recording details on Amazon, that its easy for me to get bewildered when trying to aquire arrau versions. The box sets are couter intuitive it would seem- 1980 ps cycle has the 53 diabelli and the 1960's ps cycle has the 1980's version!
I've found a reasonably priced single disc of the stereo diabelli, so I can't wait to hear both his versions and compare.
Was the stereo one the version you refer to hearing on a holiday in NZ?
thanks for your help
David
Yes, I now own this as it's so good.
BTW, other Diabelli's I'd recommend are
Kovacevich - the first one over his latest incarnation though that's quite good as well
Richter on the Philips label
....and the great Schnabel.
T/Y Holden
David
To add to this Arrau thread, with the arrival of the Heritage Arrau beethoven box set, I've now been able to hear his 1960's Hammerklavier as its included .
My goodness, this is a great version of the Op 106 imo!
I have always struggled a little with this sonata if I'm honest- I could appreciate its greatness without really loving it in the way I do the last three, despite familarity with a number of different recordings, none of which I found wholly satisfactory.
But this account is really illuminating. He seems to take a slightly different approach from many- he takes the outer movements with restraint and wonderful tone painting to render beauty amoung the rocky outcrops.
Whilst the great adagio is deeply felt, and despite being broad in tempo, he manages to avoid the hint of sentimentality that can occasionally creep into many versions of this that I have heard.
I can't stop listening to it- a revelation! Beautifully conceived.
It's funny - I had that Hammerklavier on LP a long time ago and gave it away, as it seemed to me to "chopinise" Beethoven (I disliked Chopin at the time, perhaps I would appreciate it more now). But my standards in that great work have always been Schnabel, Solomon and Serkin; more recently I have appreciated Yudina, Richter (Praga) and Gilels (Melodiya). As it is an inexhaustible work, fresh light can always be cast on it. (I had to modify this as I started thinking of the Diabelli instead - as I have pointed out elsewhere, gagadom is encroaching, fast.)
Quote from: mjwal on September 05, 2010, 01:03:14 PM
It's funny - I had that Hammerklavier on LP a long time ago and gave it away, as it seemed to me to "chopinise" Beethoven (I disliked Chopin at the time, perhaps I would appreciate it more now). But my standards in that great work have always been Schnabel, Solomon and Serkin; more recently I have appreciated Yudina, Richter (Praga) and Gilels (Melodiya). As it is an inexhaustible work, fresh light can always be cast on it. (I had to modify this as I started thinking of the Diabelli instead - as I have pointed out elsewhere, gagadom is encroaching, fast.)
Interesting. I have spent the day listening to Hammerklaviers to try to figure out further why it is that the Arrau appeals so greatly. I also regard Solomon very highly in the 106 (incidentally I would also say, for me, unsurpassed in his 1951 Op111).
I know what you mean about "Chopinising", but whilst the outer movements are certainly not brusque like Pollini, I'm hearing the Arrau not as overly lyrical or rhapsodic- its a dark beauty Arrau finds there and disciplined.
His adagio is also more structured than Solomon. Whereas Solomon unfolds seamlessly, with Arrau you hear the different parts of the Adagio, but there is always a sense of how each bar relates to the structure of the sonata as a whole. Its a magnificent conceptualisation and I am reminded of what Holden wrote about how Arrau successfully conveyed each individual variation of the Diabelli as part of a coherant whole.
I felt that very much also with Arrau's Hammerklavier in a way I hadnt heard before with other recordings.
Of the pianists you mention though I havent heard any of Richter's 106's
I have two recordings of him playing Beethoven's Op 2.1, one made in 1964 and the other made in 1988. In both cases there's no major changes in his understanding of the music that I noticed. The later recording is I think the better performance, with one reservation. The 1988 is more intense, and the quality of the piano tone that the engineers captured is ravishing. In the first two movements he is every bit as fleet in the late recording as in the earlier. Maybe the later recording breathes slightly more deeply (!!!) -- pauses slightly better managed -- that's what explains the slightly different timings.
The reservation is in the minuet, which is slightly more lively in the earlier recording. When you don't do comparative listenings you hardly notice -- it's not a problem.
The final movement is thrilling in the 1988.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 16, 2011, 09:02:58 AM
I have two recordings of him playing Beethoven's Op 2.1, one made in 1964 and the other made in 1988. In both cases there's no major changes in his understanding of the music that I noticed. The later recording is I think the better performance....
Me too. He really turns in a lovely performance of Op. 2/1 in the digital set and the sound is lovely.
With Op. 2/2 and 2/3, though, I could hear his technique and youthful energy fading. With both of these, I feel the 1964 is the clear winner.
Am mostly agreeing with posts 6+7 in this thread, preferring the very early Arrau. Couldn´t hear anything of interest in his Beethoven Concerti with Haitink, for instance - found them totally anonymous. On the other hand, I have been giving him a break for some time, and will be open for his possible qualities now and then in the future. There might be some subtleness in his playing which I have ignored due to superficiality ... Also, his later recordings were sonically good, but I haven´t explored that many of them.
Should I mention some recordings which I treasure, it would be:
- Weber: Konzertstück/Defauw, Chicago SO, mono 1946. His stereo recording with Galliera was my favourite, until hearing this one - unashamedly ultra-romantic, fast and dramatic, very unlike his later style. The same mood applies to his Weber Sonata 1 (1949), but it can be difficult to see that many qualities in the music itself ...
- Liszt: 1st Concerto/Ormandy, columbia mono. Probably my preferred, together with Richter/Kondrashin.
- Chopin: Nocturnes / philips. This is a highly original, ethereal recording, but should be supplemented with others as a contrast.
- the you-tube Schoenberg pieces opus 11 also seem to be good (1959; also a relief in opposition to the conservative repertoire he chose in his later years). I am not extremely informed as regards this repertoire though, but he seems to add a lot of sensitivity to the music, so that it almost sounds Scriabinesque.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0mGbyfcG-c&playnext=1&list=PL3CA10A0E4408C3A8
- Chopin: Tarantella (1930). Just an example of his outgoingly virtuoso early style. Arrau uses 2:39; Ugorski 3:16 ...
Quote from: DieNacht on July 16, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Should I mention some recordings which I treasure, it would be:
- Weber: Konzertstück/Defauw, Chicago SO, mono 1946. His stereo recording with Galliera was my favourite, until hearing this one - unashamedly ultra-romantic, fast and dramatic, very unlike his later style. The same mood applies to his Weber Sonata 1 (1949), but it can be difficult to see that many qualities in the music itself ...
I totally agree. Just got those recently.
QuoteChopin: Nocturnes / philips. This is a highly original, etheral recording, but should be supplemented with others as a contrast.
My first and over a dozen sets later, still my favorite. :)
Interesting discography, thanks.
Quote from: DieNacht on July 16, 2011, 09:54:12 AM
Interesting discography, thanks.
It seems to have vanished. Here it is again:
http://arrauhouse.org/content/disc_completediscography.htm
http://arrauhouse.org/content/disc_completediscography.htm
err, the question at the end of the first page seemed to me - for some reason :-\ - the newest contribution to this thread. So I deleted mine last one, but after you said you found it interesting I replace it ;D
EDIT: YESS!
EDIT2: it is really good, I am actually thinking about compiling one for some pianist whom I like and doesn't have an updated one. Maybe Richter, but that would be close to impossible. :-X
Found it without any problems - and luckily, it is still there ;)
Quote from: George on July 16, 2011, 09:34:24 AM
Me too. He really turns in a lovely performance of Op. 2/1 in the digital set and the sound is lovely.
With Op. 2/2 and 2/3, though, I could hear his technique and youthful energy fading. With both of these, I feel the 1964 is the clear winner.
Agreed. I'll just report that I enjoyed the 1964 Op 2/3 much more this time round than I had done previously. I've always loved the 1964 Op 2/2.
There's a 1938 recording of 2/3 on Music and Arts which is radically different in conception from the 1964. It's impressive, particularly for the ebb and flow between fast and slow passages in the first movement. The reading is more mercurial. You lose some of the nobility maybe of the 1964 -- but only maybe. I think the 1938 is one of the great Beethoven sonata recordings.
There's also a 2/3 on DVD from a 1977 Bonn concert which I haven't heard.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v333/23/58/1140873941/n1140873941_115888_5078.jpg)
"For me, interpretation is the process of interpenetration between the world of the composer and the world of the interpreter. The interpreter gives his blood to the work, so to speak, without which he wouldn't exist. I think that an ideal interpretation is one which consists in an equal sharing between the creation of the composer and the creation of the performer -- that requires that the latter study the manuscripts, first editions, biographies etc. Claudio Arrau, 11 July 1961"
Quote from: Mandryka on July 17, 2011, 02:26:20 AM
There's a 1938 recording of 10/3 on Music and Arts which is radically different in conception from the 1964. It's impressive, particularly for the ebb and flow between fast and slow passages in the first movement. The reading is more mercurial. You lose some of the nobility maybe of the 1964 -- but only maybe. I think the 1938 is one of the great Beethoven sonata recordings.
There's also a 10/3 on DVD from a 1977 Bonn concert which I haven't heard.
And there's also a 10/3 in the new EMI Icon box from 1958-59. He must have loved this work.
Quote from: Mandryka on July 17, 2011, 02:54:57 AM
"For me, interpretation is the process of interpenetration between the world of the composer and the world of the interpreter. The interpreter gives his blood to the work, so to speak, without which he wouldn't exist. I think that an ideal interpretation is one which consists in an equal sharing between the creation of the composer and the creation of the performer -- that requires that the latter study the manuscripts, first editions, biographies etc. Claudio Arrau, 11 July 1961"
Very cool quote, thanks for sharing. More proof of why I love this pianist.
Quote from: George on July 17, 2011, 03:35:26 AM
And there's also a 10/3 in the new EMI Icon box from 1958-59. He must have loved this work.
Sorry I meant 2/3 not 10/3 -- I've edited the post. As it happens he recorded 10/3 in Germany in 1938 too -- and that's very good. I'll get round to listeningt o the 10/3s later.
The largo of Op 7 in the 1985 recording is quite different in conception from the 1964. I'm not sure what to say about it: it's very strange and I need time to think.
I think the later record is a majorly interesting artefact, more so that the earlier one. True the first movement is slightly more alluring in the 1964, because it's energetic. But the third movement in the 1985 has a real Haydnesque buffo feel. And I like the lyricism and the intensity he finds in the rondo. The 1964 is just fine as a reading, but the 1985 is somehow more interesting, even if at the end of the day it isn't a complete success.
I have 5 Arrau recordings of Op 10/3 -- 1938, 1958, 1964, 1973 and 1985.
In terms of conception he's pretty consistent except for a slight lengthening of the largo to Schnabel style duration. I don't like any of the studio recordings much in fact. The 1985 seems the least interesting to me: slightly stiff and uninspired in the faster music and almost unbearable for me in the largo, which seems overworked, overnuanced. The 1958 and 1964 are less offensive - I like the way he plays the first movement for EMI; I like the way he plays the largo for the Philips Analogue.
The 1938 has good sound and is a very fine performance -- you can hear that distinctive Arrau tone a bit even in the early recording. The tempos are faster than post war and many would say that that's no bad thing. It's a radio concert performance.
My favourite is the 1973 -- by far. This is one of the Arrau performances that I really treasure -- spontaneous, fiery, passionate, beautiful tone (the live concert recording on Hansler is excellent), a sense of inevitability to the flow of the music, a sense of ebb and flow, a coherence, a unity.
Mandryka's list of favourite Arrau Beethoven so far:
2/1 -- Philips Digital
2/2 -- Philips Analogue
2/3 -- 1938
7 -- Philips Digital
10/3 -- Hansler
Quote from: Mandryka on July 19, 2011, 09:32:50 AM
I have 5 Arrau recordings of Op 10/3 -- 1938, 1958, 1964, 1973 and 1985.
In terms of conception he's pretty consistent except for a slight lengthening of the largo to Schnabel style duration. I don't like any of the studio recordings much in fact. The 1985 seems the least interesting to me: slightly stiff and uninspired in the faster music and almost unbearable for me in the largo, which seems overworked, overnuanced. The 1958 and 1964 are less offensive - I like the way he plays the first movement for EMI; I like the way he plays the largo for the Philips Analogue.
The 1938 has good sound and is a very fine performance -- you can hear that distinctive Arrau tone a bit even in the early recording. The tempos are faster than post war and many would say that that's no bad thing. It's a radio concert performance.
My favourite is the 1973 -- by far. This is one of the Arrau performances that I really treasure -- spontaneous, fiery, passionate, beautiful tone (the live concert recording on Hansler is excellent), a sense of inevitability to the flow of the music, a sense of ebb and flow, a coherence, a unity.
Mandryka's list of favourite Arrau Beethoven so far:
2/1 -- Philips Digital
2/2 -- Philips Analogue
2/3 -- 1938
7 -- Philips Digital
10/3 -- Hansler
Thanks for summarizing. What label is that 1938 Opus 2/3 and 10/3 on?
Interesting posts, thanks.
Quote from: George on July 19, 2011, 09:56:25 AM
Thanks for summarizing. What label is that 1938 Opus 2/3 and 10/3 on?
Music and Arts
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KPP6YG8SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Listening to some of this before bedtime. Picked up this OOP set tonight for $50 at a local used shop. Boy, Arrau sure could bring out the poetry in Liszt, while at the same time possessing the requisite power and technique. Great depth and beauty in his Liszt, for sure.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but Arrau's Brahms piano concerti with Giulini are included in the recently reissued EMI set, and the first in particular is pretty stunning, even for Arrau's stellar standards in the Romantic concerto repertoire.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N-ujRAHvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Edit: And here as well, it would seem.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gGrYAk-iL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Arrua's Beethoven recordings are outstanding!...first time I saw him was on tv as a kid and he played the Waldstein...still my favorite guy for this sonata, any time he played it
I've been listening to his Schumann the last few days (the Philips recordings) and they are wonderful! This guy was awesome!
What were you listening to?
He was really proud of the Davidsbundlertanze he made for Philips (I think he said he thought it was his best recording or something like that)
Outside of the Philips recordings, I like the 1946 Kreisleriana (for Columbia) a lot. I haven't heard the Philips one. Also there's a good live Fantasy on Aura which is especially memorable in the electric coda to the second movement, and the delicate raptness of the primo. Again I haven't heard the Philips Fantasy or the BBC one.
And I played the live Symphonic Studies from Prague a few weeks ago and really enjoyed it.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2011, 08:55:20 AM
What were you listening to?
Much of the Philips set.
QuoteI like the 1946 Kreisleriana (for Columbia) a lot.
Where is that available?
Quote from: George on August 16, 2011, 09:11:01 AM
Much of the Philips set.
Where is that available?
The Kreisliana? You can find it ar musique ouverte I think -- let me know if it's not there any more. Cortot's Kreisleriana was there too, which is quite a contentious and unorthodox interpretation. I prefer Cortot's to Arrau's and prefer Sofronitsky's to both :)
Quote from: George on August 16, 2011, 09:11:01 AM
Much of the Philips set.
Where is that available?
Most recently it was in the United Archives box, which should be around in places, I guess.
And it may come back on the market when United Archives gets back into business.
Quote from: Mandryka on August 16, 2011, 10:03:31 AM
The Kreisliana? You can find it ar musique ouverte I think -- let me know if it's not there any more. Cortot's Kreisleriana was there too, which is quite a contentious and unorthodox interpretation. I prefer Cortot's to Arrau's and prefer Sofronitsky's to both :)
I prefer Natan Brand's studio recording for that work.
Found a great photo of Arrau and wanted to share it:
(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio-BIG/Arrau-Caludio-04%5B1954%5D.jpg)
It seems no matter how many recordings are made available, there are more to be discovered.
Here is a very fine recording of Debussy's Estampes by Arrau, from 1949. Arrau made a series of recordings for Columbia around that time that are currently not available on CD (there are some difficult to find, out of print editions, notably from United Archives).
http://www.mediafire.com/?gdx4j7og4g8x05k
http://www.mediafire.com/?nb3m3ipfplg5d5h
http://www.mediafire.com/?zdrnllgl2o48u8a
(raw transferes from a 10 inch LP, with no attempt at repair or noise reduction).
(http://www.mediafire.com/conv/8958517509b368ae2f36ecb1e39c7a33a70f69f6f4d37fbe1a146114036461846g.jpg)
As you can see, this recording cost me $1.00.
Quote from: Scarpia on November 13, 2012, 09:57:55 AM
It seems no matter how many recordings are made available, there are more to be discovered.
Here is a very find recording of Debussy's Estampes by Arrau, from 1939. Arrau made a series of recordings for Columbia around that time that are currently not available on CD (there are some difficult to find, out of print editions, notably from United Archives).
http://www.mediafire.com/?gdx4j7og4g8x05k
http://www.mediafire.com/?nb3m3ipfplg5d5h
http://www.mediafire.com/?zdrnllgl2o48u8a
(raw transferes from a 10 inch LP, with no attempt at repair or noise reduction).
Many thanks for that! :)
Edit: looks like (only) one of the three were issued on Marston in a release titled "The Complete Pre-War recordings."
http://www.marstonrecords.com/arrau/arrau_tracks.htm
Quote from: Scarpia on November 13, 2012, 09:57:55 AM
It seems no matter how many recordings are made available, there are more to be discovered.
Here is a very fine recording of Debussy's Estampes by Arrau, from 1939. Arrau made a series of recordings for Columbia around that time that are currently not available on CD (there are some difficult to find, out of print editions, notably from United Archives).
(http://www.mediafire.com/conv/8958517509b368ae2f36ecb1e39c7a33a70f69f6f4d37fbe1a146114036461846g.jpg)
AFAIK Arrau only recorded one of the Estampes in 1939 - No.3 Jardins sur la pluie. This was originally a Parlophone 78 rpm, reissued in LP by EMI and latter as CD by various labels - including Marston 52023 (as referred by George).
In 1949 Arrau recorded the 3 Estampes for Columbia (originally Columbia US 78 rpm) and these "post-war" recordings were then reissued in LP by Columbia (ML2086 which cover is depicted above) and in CD (United Archives, Dante, Arlecchino,...).
And for those who like to compare there is another recording of the 3 Estampes (Philips 1980) and still a later recording of No.2 La soirée dans Grenade (Philips 1993)
Sorry, I corrected my typo, this release is from 1949 (not 1939, as I originally typed). Despite the noisy surface on my copy, the sound of the piano is quite vivid in this old recording.
As was mentioned above, the recordings were released here.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Claudio-Arrau-Legend-Claude-Debussy/dp/B000J4P9Y4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352867605&sr=8-1
Want 'the best'? First go to Liszt Sonata live in Salzburg and in New York. Any recording you get by Arrau will be GEAVADthe best available. Regards.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71DGQXcxBJL._SL1417_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81WCM2S2kYL._SL1500_.jpg)
Somewhat new release that didn't get mention here, so I thought I'd bring it up. It's dirt cheap. My copy is on the way. amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FJZQS9I/ref=s9_wish_co_d1_g15_i5?ie=UTF8&colid=T8TAKNFO1GQ5&coliid=I3T3GXFIAIMJMW&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=left-1&pf_rd_r=0XYAQX28ZYW63J46EPA5&pf_rd_t=3201&pf_rd_p=1774864282&pf_rd_i=typ01)
Quote from: George on June 25, 2014, 08:42:48 AM
(Claudio Arrau "Rarities 1929-1951")
Somewhat new release that didn't get mention here, so I thought I'd bring it up. It's dirt cheap. My copy is on the way.
Wishlisted. I have heard good things about his early recordings but don't have any. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: Pat B on June 25, 2014, 10:10:17 AM
Wishlisted. I have heard good things about his early recordings but don't have any. Thanks for posting.
No problem.
I suggest you get the 2CD set on Marston ahead of this set, though. Better mastering and documentation.
Quote from: George on June 25, 2014, 12:46:12 PM
I suggest you get the 2CD set on Marston ahead of this set, though. Better mastering and documentation.
Oh, so you have heard the EMI/Warner "Rarities" set then?
Quote from: Pat B on June 25, 2014, 08:12:07 PM
Oh, so you have heard the EMI/Warner "Rarities" set then?
No, I haven't, sorry. I guess I am making an assumption based on past experience. The only time I have found an EMI mastering to have measured up to Ward Marston's work was in the Cortot Anniversary box, done by EMI France. There are a number of performances unique to both Arrau sets, however, so fans of the pianist will ultimately want both.
Quote from: George on June 26, 2014, 04:01:10 AM
No, I haven't, sorry. I guess I am making an assumption based on past experience. The only time I have found an EMI mastering to have measured up to Ward Marston's work was in the Cortot Anniversary box, done by EMI France. There are a number of performances unique to both Arrau sets, however, so fans of the pianist will ultimately want both.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. You may well be right -- at the very least, I suspect folks like Marston put more effort into remastering than the majors. However the EMI-Warner set has a longer and more appealing (for me) program and is cheaper to boot.
Quote from: Pat B on June 26, 2014, 10:30:39 AM
Okay, thanks for the clarification. You may well be right -- at the very least, I suspect folks like Marston put more effort into remastering than the majors. However the EMI-Warner set has a longer and more appealing (for me) program and is cheaper to boot.
All good points! Enjoy! :)
Recently, we saw the Mozart Arrau Edition reissued in a budget Decca box.
What do folks think the likelihood is of them doing this with some of his other composer boxes in the Arrau Edition series?
Yeah, except for the Beethoven (the 60s recordings came out in two slightly different boxes a few years ago after having been oop for quite a while) those cheapo boxes only had music I am not so interested in (Mozart sonatas, Liszt). I have been waiting for the Schumann (and even more) Brahms to re-appear for years now...
This is quite astonishing because I still remember that when I started listening to classical music in the late 1980s, Arrau was THE great old man, the noble grandseigneur of piano playing and his late recordings issued as high price single CDs by Philips, but the earlier stuff usually also available. Most of this (except the most central stuff like some Beethoven and Chopin) went oop fairly soon after his death.
(http://www.amoeba.com/sized-images/max/500/500/uploads/albums/covers/other//888430716520.jpg)
Now enjoying CD 01 of this 12 CD set, which contains 1941 performances of Mozart and Bach works. The set covers his recordings for RCA and Columbia from 1941-1952. Folks who associate Arrau with slow, plodding readings should check out his youthful, animated playing here. The transfer, as with other discs in this set that I sampled, is good without being great. The booklet states that the transfers, editing, mixing and mastering were all done by Andreas Meyer. I compared some of the discs in this new set to transfers previously made for Naxos and the United Archives set, and this new set compares favorably. The Naxos (by Mark Obert-Thorn) has more surface noise, but the new set preserves most of the tone heard on the Naxos with much less noise. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different. The United Archives set sounds almost exactly the same as the material I compared from the new set, sound quality-wise, but the United Archives set is still desirable for Arrau fanatics, as it has the Beethoven Op. 81a piano sonata recording that is missing from this set. Liner notes in this set are by Jed Distler. Get this set!
Quote from: George on November 30, 2016, 02:31:24 PMGet this set!
That seems like sound advice. It's on my new year's shopping list. Now, when will UMG do a comprehensive Arrau box. I mean, they did it for Brendel.
Quote from: George on November 30, 2016, 02:31:24 PM
(http://www.amoeba.com/sized-images/max/500/500/uploads/albums/covers/other//888430716520.jpg)
Now enjoying CD 01 of this 11 CD set, which contains 1941 performances of Mozart and Bach works. The set covers his recordings for RCA and Columbia from 1941-1952. Folks who associate Arrau with slow, plodding readings should check out his youthful, animated playing here. The transfer, as with other discs in this set that I sampled, is good without being great. The booklet states that the transfers, editing, mixing and mastering were all done by Andreas Meyer. I compared some of the discs in this new set to transfers previously made for Naxos and the United Archives set, and this new set compares favorably. The Naxos (by Mark Obert-Thorn) has more surface noise, but the new set preserves most of the tone heard on the Naxos with much less noise. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different. The United Archives set sounds almost exactly the same as the material I compared from the new set, sound quality-wise, but the United Archives set is still desirable for Arrau fanatics, as it has the Beethoven Op. 81a piano sonata recording that is missing from this set. Liner notes in this set are by Jed Distler. Get this set!
I found a few of these recordings on Columbia 10" LPs and was mightily impressed. Jumped on this set as soon as it appeared, after despairing of ever getting hold of the United Archive release, which was out of print and virtually impossible to find used.
Quote from: Todd on November 30, 2016, 02:44:45 PM
That seems like sound advice. It's on my new year's shopping list. Now, when will UMG do a comprehensive Arrau box. I mean, they did it for Brendel.
I've bought a great deal of it already, so I'd be happy if they even just reissued all of the Arrau Heritage sets (like they did with the Mozart and Liszt sets.) The Arrau Heritage sets are crazy expensive these days. So far, I have his Chopin, Brahms, Liszt, Mozart and Schumann sets.
Quote from: Scarpia on November 30, 2016, 03:01:03 PM
I found a few of these recordings on Columbia 10" LPs and was mightily impressed. Jumped on this set as soon as it appeared, after despairing of ever getting hold of the United Archive release, which was out of print and virtually impossible to find used.
I was lucky enough to find a new copy of the United Archives set last year.
Someone has confirmed the new Complete Warner box is using Art&Son transfers which means this is a must have for me, if their past work is anything to go by. The Arrau Complete Philips box is among my most played boxes. Will put this Warner set in my heavy listening via Qobuz but before that kick it off with one of my favorite performances of op. 111 with the 1970 live recording from Paris.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6198jTME5EL._SL1200_.jpg)
Quote from: hvbias on November 01, 2022, 03:51:50 PM
Someone has confirmed the new Complete Warner box is using Art&Son transfers which means this is a must have for me, if their past work is anything to go by. The Arrau Complete Philips box is among my most played boxes. Will put this Warner set in my heavy listening via Qobuz but before that kick it off with one of my favorite performances of op. 111 with the 1970 live recording from Paris.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6198jTME5EL._SL1200_.jpg)
Other than the new mastering, what does it have that's not in the EMI Icon box, which I already have.
For reference--
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51mqJj8JYBL._SY350_.jpg)
Quote from: JBS on November 01, 2022, 05:31:25 PM
Other than the new mastering, what does it have that's not in the EMI Icon box, which I already have.
For reference--
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51mqJj8JYBL._SY350_.jpg)
The contents are listed on presto. I think I noticed more than one set of Beethoven concertos. Probably more older mono recordings.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 01, 2022, 06:39:12 PM
The contents are listed on presto. I think I noticed more than one set of Beethoven concertos. Probably more older mono recordings.
It's a little confusing sorting out duplicate recordings with that listing.
There's a Brahms 2 not in the Icon box, and the blurb mentions a Beethoven Op 109 never released on CD before.
But the recordings from the 20s and 30s are not enough to lure me, unless the price goes down a lot.
Quote from: JBS on November 01, 2022, 07:18:17 PM
It's a little confusing sorting out duplicate recordings with that listing.
There's a Brahms 2 not in the Icon box, and the blurb mentions a Beethoven Op 109 never released on CD before.
But the recordings from the 20s and 30s are not enough to lure me, unless the price goes down a lot.
Same here.
What a pity to have no (pirate ) recordings of rach 2 or rach 3 with Arrau at the piano ! It seems he played these works between the two wars...
Quote from: JBS on November 01, 2022, 05:31:25 PM
Other than the new mastering, what does it have that's not in the EMI Icon box, which I already have.
For reference--
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51mqJj8JYBL._SY350_.jpg)
The Icon box is also missing some Beethoven Piano Sonatas in the earlier "Beethoven Edition" from EMI, and that "Beethoven Edition" is missing Beethoven Piano Sonatas that were included in the Icon box. I had posted the differences between those two boxes on another board highlighting the differences on the images but they've been lost to the sands of time with Imageshack.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31yh7jI+Q5L.jpg)
Back of the "Beethoven Edition"
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81nozAxXFvL._SL1500_.jpg)
To be honest if these weren't new transfers from Art&Son I'd put in more of an effort to look for what is new like I did with the Kempff "The Decca Legacy" (
very little music that hasn't been on digital before, a good chunk of that his earlier late Brahms recordings that are played too briskly for me). The older EMI mastering is usually lacking in some way or another. It's on Qobuz so I'm not in any hurry to buy it.
Quote from: hvbias on November 02, 2022, 03:50:30 AM
The Icon box is also missing some Beethoven Piano Sonatas in the earlier "Beethoven Edition" from EMI, and that "Beethoven Edition" is missing Beethoven Piano Sonatas that were included in the Icon box. I had posted the differences between those two boxes on another board highlighting the differences on the images but they've been lost to the sands of time with Imageshack.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31yh7jI+Q5L.jpg)
Back of the "Beethoven Edition"
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81nozAxXFvL._SL1500_.jpg)
To be honest if these weren't new transfers from Art&Son I'd put in more of an effort to look for what is new like I did with the Kempff "The Decca Legacy" (very little music that hasn't been on digital before, a good chunk of that his earlier late Brahms recordings that are played too briskly for me). The older EMI mastering is usually lacking in some way or another. It's on Qobuz so I'm not in any hurry to buy it.
the Woo variations is a high point - listening into it for the first time in more than 10 years, and I'm impressed. People who like what he does with the Waldstein used to say to me that that's a high point too, but I'm kind of not in the mood now.
Quote from: hvbias on November 02, 2022, 03:50:30 AMTo be honest if these weren't new transfers from Art&Son I'd put in more of an effort to look for what is new like I did with the Kempff "The Decca Legacy" (very little music that hasn't been on digital before, a good chunk of that his earlier late Brahms recordings that are played too briskly for me). The older EMI mastering is usually lacking in some way or another. It's on Qobuz so I'm not in any hurry to buy it.
What is "Art&Son?"
A French Transfer studio, AFAIK.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 02, 2022, 08:32:05 AM
A French Transfer studio, AFAIK.
Sounded vaguely familiar. I looked up my Cluytens complete Warner box and it was done by Art & Son Studio. Good work, but not a game changer, IMO.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 02, 2022, 07:35:51 AM
What is "Art&Son?"
They do wonderfully natural sounding transfers/mastering. When I see their name, I buy.
Thanks for the rundown.
Looks like I'll stick with the Icon box.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 02, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
the Woo variations is a high point - listening into it for the first time in more than 10 years, and I'm impressed. People who like what he does with the Waldstein used to say to me that that's a high point too, but I'm kind of not in the mood now.
That 32 Variations in C minor was nice. I personally prefer the opening of the Waldstein to be played with more brio, but otherwise a nice performance.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 02, 2022, 08:52:00 AM
Sounded vaguely familiar. I looked up my Cluytens complete Warner box and it was done by Art & Son Studio. Good work, but not a game changer, IMO.
I have the huge Cluytens box, I thought it was an appreciable improvement over the Abbey Road Art transfers. I don't know if it's a game changer, usually the
really bad older EMI transfers are from early in the mono era. I have not heard any of the 78/shellac material from this new Arrau box yet.
I'll copy and paste what I wrote on another forum
Quote
You bring up some good questions. It's up on Qobuz and I gave a listen to Chopin op. 25 Etudes (LP era cycle), Fantasy in F minor op. 49 (for some reason not listed on the back of the box but it is included), Piano Sonata 3, Beethoven Piano Concerto 3, and op. 101 and the transfers sound good to me. On op. 101 there was zero indication of any noise reduction- no pumping artifacts or "suck out" in the space between notes. Arrau's tone comes through clearly, there is a vibrancy in the upper registers, and it doesn't sound like any EQ was used to reduce tape hiss which is quite prominent.
Recording quality - EMI might be unfairly maligned here as these transfers reveal them to not be horrible. Still some deficiencies compared to Philips engineers, for instance some brittle quality of the trills in the Allegro at an active listening level.
I was planning to play more or less the whole box but I've been sucked back into the Chopin vortex and it takes a while to get out of this, plus still listening to tons of Spanish music. The pre-LP material will be a priority when I go back to Arrau (I have the Marston set and I think posted comparisons against Music & Arts somewhere in this thread, link), I will post back what I think of them. I am also excited to hear this unreleased recording of op. 109, one of my favorite works. The Arrau Complete Philips box had some Beethoven recorded in the 1950s (before the complete cycle) in fine sound, but no op. 109.
What I would have given anything for is more recordings from Harmonies poetiques et religieuses.
Quote from: JBS on November 02, 2022, 06:06:35 PM
Thanks for the rundown.
Looks like I'll stick with the Icon box.
Just clearing this up as there is some misinformation in the above post:
op. 10/3 - present on Icon, not on Beethoven Edition
op. 78 - present on Icon, not on Beethoven Edition
op. 31/3 - present on Beethoven Edition, not on Icon
op. 27/2 - present on Beethoven Edition, not on Icon
Quote from: JBS on November 02, 2022, 06:06:35 PM
Thanks for the rundown.
Looks like I'll stick with the Icon box.
You're very welcome, my friend. I never picked up the Icon box and I really love Arrau's playing, so I sprung for the new set. After posting my rundown last night, I looked at again and noticed some missing information and a few errors. It was too late to do the work though. I had some time today to update it so I will post it below.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6198jTME5EL._AC_SX509_.jpg)
CDs 1 & 2: All of Arrau's pre-war 78s are here, except for 9 Polydor titles. These 9 Polydor titles are on the 2CD Complete Pre War set by Marston. It is unknown if Arrau is the uncredited pianist in excerpts from trios by Beethoven and Schubert with violinist Andreas Weissgerber and his cellist brother Joseph.
CD 3: 1947 Beethoven Op. 31/3. 1947 Brahms PC 1 with Cameron and Philharmonia Orchestra. The sonata is on EMI's 5CD set - Claudio Arrau, Beethoven Edition (below I refer to this as Arrau Edition.) The concerto is on the Rarities Warner 3CD set.
CDs 4 & 5: 1950 "Moonlight" sonata (Arrau Edition), 1951 Op. 10/3 (ICON), 1950 Chopin Scherzo 4 (Arrau Heritage) Liszt Valse oubliée, Liszt's Au bord d'une (Liszt works are FIRST RELEASES) Mozart K. 570 sonata (Warner Rarities 3CD set.)
CD 6: Beethoven's Fourth concerto w Galleria/Philharmonia. - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CDs 7 & 8: Chopin Etudes - EMI CD/ICON
CDs 9 & 10: Schubert Moments musicaux, D946, Wanderer Fantasy. - ICON
CD 11: Beethoven Waldstein sonata, 1950s Beethoven Op. 101 - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CD 12: Beethoven Third concerto, "Les Adieux" sonata - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CD 13: 1957 Schumann/Grieg concerto Galleria/Philharmonia - Testament and ICON
CD 14: EMI LvB Op. 109 (FIRST RELEASE), EMI Op. 110, 111 - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CDs 15 & 16: Live Arrau/Klemperer Beethoven Concertos Nos. 3 through 5 - Testament
CDs 17-20: Beethoven PC 1, 2 and 5 with Galleria, "Appassionata" sonata, 32 Var in C minor - ALL on EMI Arrau Edition and ICON, Op.78 ICON
CD 21: Chopin B minor sonata, EMI Chopin F minor Fantasy - EMI CD/ICON
CD 22: Weber Konzertstücke, Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 - ICON
CDs 23 & 24: Brahms concertos - Giulini and the Philharmonia Orchestra. - EMI CD
Quote from: George on November 03, 2022, 09:08:11 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6198jTME5EL._AC_SX509_.jpg)
CDs 1 & 2: All of Arrau's pre-war 78s are here, except for 9 Polydor titles. These 9 Polydor titles are on the 2CD Complete Pre War set by Marston. It is unknown if Arrau is the uncredited pianist in excerpts from trios by Beethoven and Schubert with violinist Andreas Weissgerber and his cellist brother Joseph.
CD 3: 1947 Beethoven Op. 31/3. 1947 Brahms PC 1 with Cameron and Philharmonia Orchestra. The sonata is on EMI's 5CD set - Claudio Arrau, Beethoven Edition (below I refer to this as Arrau Edition.) The concerto is on the Rarities Warner 3CD set.
CDs 4 & 5: 1950 "Moonlight" sonata (Arrau Edition), 1951 Op. 10/3 (ICON), 1950 Chopin Scherzo 4 (Arrau Heritage) Liszt Valse oubliée, Liszt's Au bord d'une (Liszt works are FIRST RELEASES) Mozart K. 570 sonata (Warner Rarities 3CD set.)
CD 6: Beethoven's Fourth concerto w Galleria/Philharmonia. - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CDs 7 & 8: Chopin Etudes - EMI CD/ICON
CDs 9 & 10: Schubert Moments musicaux, D946, Wanderer Fantasy. - ICON
CD 11: Beethoven Waldstein sonata, 1950s Beethoven Op. 101 - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CD 12: Beethoven Third concerto, "Les Adieux" sonata - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CD 13: 1957 Schumann/Grieg concerto Galleria/Philharmonia - Testament and ICON
CD 14: EMI LvB Op. 109 (FIRST RELEASE), EMI Op. 110, 111 - EMI Arrau Edition/ICON
CDs 15 & 16: Live Arrau/Klemperer Beethoven Concertos Nos. 3 through 5 - Testament
CDs 17-20: Beethoven PC 1, 2 and 5 with Galleria, "Appassionata" sonata, 32 Var in C minor - ALL on EMI Arrau Edition and ICON, Op.78 ICON
CD 21: Chopin B minor sonata, EMI Chopin F minor Fantasy - EMI CD/ICON
CD 22: Weber Konzertstücke, Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 - ICON
CDs 23 & 24: Brahms concertos - Giulini and the Philharmonia Orchestra. - EMI CD
I pulled up the booklet for the ICON box and see that most of the selections are masters from 1991, a few from 1988, and some of the more obscure recordings mastered in 2001 and later. Given that I have the ICON box and the rarities box, there is not much new material in the new release, and it's marginal whether I will find the new master noticeably better. I see that the set is available for lossless download, so I guess I could buy a representative track and decide if I find the sound noticeably better.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 03, 2022, 10:07:18 AM
I pulled up the booklet for the ICON box and see that most of the selections are masters from 1991, a few from 1988, and some of the more obscure recordings mastered in 2001 and later. Given that I have the ICON box and the rarities box, there is not much new material in the new release, and it's marginal whether I will find the new master noticeably better. I see that the set is available for lossless download, so I guess I could buy a representative track and decide if I find the sound noticeably better.
In my case, I like the idea of the better mastering and the smaller shelf space that the new set has.
Quote from: George on November 03, 2022, 10:33:38 AM
In my case, I like the idea of the better mastering and the smaller shelf space that the new set has.
I ripped mine to FLAC files, since I have no shelf space. :)
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 03, 2022, 10:40:43 AM
I ripped mine to FLAC files, since I have no shelf space. :)
I'm not there . . . yet. :laugh:
Quote from: Mandryka on July 19, 2011, 09:32:50 AMI have 5 Arrau recordings of Op 10/3 -- 1938, 1958, 1964, 1973 and 1985.
In terms of conception he's pretty consistent except for a slight lengthening of the largo to Schnabel style duration. I don't like any of the studio recordings much in fact. The 1985 seems the least interesting to me: slightly stiff and uninspired in the faster music and almost unbearable for me in the largo, which seems overworked, overnuanced. The 1958 and 1964 are less offensive - I like the way he plays the first movement for EMI; I like the way he plays the largo for the Philips Analogue.
The 1938 has good sound and is a very fine performance -- you can hear that distinctive Arrau tone a bit even in the early recording. The tempos are faster than post war and many would say that that's no bad thing. It's a radio concert performance.
My favourite is the 1973 -- by far. This is one of the Arrau performances that I really treasure -- spontaneous, fiery, passionate, beautiful tone (the live concert recording on Hansler is excellent), a sense of inevitability to the flow of the music, a sense of ebb and flow, a coherence, a unity.
Mandryka's list of favourite Arrau Beethoven so far:
2/1 -- Philips Digital
2/2 -- Philips Analogue
2/3 -- 1938
7 -- Philips Digital
10/3 -- Hansler
Did you ever continue in your survey of the available recordings of Arrau's LvB? I'd be curious to read your findings.
Regarding the Digital set, I read a review that said the 1989-1990 recordings were particularly problematic, but I have yet to confirm this conclusively. However the digital recordings were made from 1984-1990 and many of them were from 1989-1990. Thirteen of the 32, in fact, were recorded from 1989-1990; 2, 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 19, 20, 22, 24, 25, 27 and 28.
I am deeply enjoying his digital Op. 7 as I type this.
Quote from: George on July 28, 2025, 10:23:00 AMDid you ever continue in your survey of the available recordings of Arrau's LvB? I'd be curious to read your findings.
Regarding the Digital set, I read a review that said the 1989-1990 recordings were particularly problematic, but I have yet to confirm this conclusively. However the digital recordings were made from 1984-1990 and many of them were from 1989-1990. Thirteen of the 32, in fact, were recorded from 1989-1990; 2, 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 19, 20, 22, 24, 25, 27 and 28.
I am deeply enjoying his digital Op. 7 as I type this.
No, I kind of lost interest in Beethoven to be honest.