GMG Classical Music Forum

Ridiculous poll season continues with this one from me, inspired by my just having heard both works and deciding that I'm in the corner of Cello Concerto No. 2.

C'mon, wimps. Pick a side, will ya?  ;D

Yes! Both are superb works of course, but the second is just astonishing. This is a little thing I wrote about it which summarises my feelings on it quite well. It was on an Amazon review actually.

QuoteThis music is some of the most soul-wrenching, tragic and beautiful music written in the twentieth century. It contains all of what makes Shostakovich such a great composer - pain and struggle, agony, ecstacy, irony, and beauty. It is my favourite work by Shostakovich (and i like Shostakovich ALOT!). As Rostropovich said - Although it is not as startingly virtuosic as the first concerto, its profundity is second to none. In comparison with Rostropovich with the Boston Symphony (on a double disk called 'Great Works for Cello and Orchestra' - highly recommendable in every way) Kliegel's effort pales. I am a cellist and whenever I practice this work, I find myself emotionally exhausted afterwards. 

Truly one of the great works of the great cello concertos and one which has really suffered too much neglect. Technically it is probably more difficult than the first, and it commits that most heinous of concerto crimes that has spelled the relative neglect of so many fine concertos - it finishes quietly - Britten's violin concerto, Walton's cello concerto among others. (Lynn Harrell suggested that he thought the suddenness of the end represents death).

They're both great! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1031.0.html)

Quote from: Guido on May 31, 2007, 03:22:36 PM
(Lynn Harrell suggested that he thought the suddenness of the end represents death).

No comment.

(Though, I suppose, that itself stands as a comment.)

Those last three pages - the cello coming in in fourths and slowly winding down and recapitulating the material from the first movement to one final ecstatic climax, and then the bizarre and haunting pizzicato and percussion cadenza like section - just magical.

Quote from: Guido on May 31, 2007, 03:27:12 PM
Those last three pages - the cello coming in in fourths and slowly winding down and recapitulating the material from the first movement to one final ecstatic climax, and then the bizare and haunting pizzicato and percussion cadenza like section - just magical.

Truly!

Guido, it'll disgust you, but it was to Kliegel's version that I was listening. :)

The second, definitely.

While the first is a fine work the second is one of Shostakovich's greatest, even if it's never going to be a crowd-pleaser.

Oh lord - this is her worst recording of major repertoire without a doubt - if you liked it Listen to Rostropovich recorded here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ROSTROPOVICH-PALYS-GREAT-CELLO-WORKS/dp/B000001GJK/ref=sr_1_1/202-8355540-6495045?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180654461&sr=8-1
it'll knock your socks off! I take it you read my review of the Kliegel?

The is why GMG makes me happy - so few cellists have actually even heard this work, nor are interested in exploring anywhere outside their standard canon of 12 concertos - Boccherini (arr. Grutz.), Haydn1, Haydn2, Schumann, Saint-Saens1, Lalo, Dvorak, Strauss, Elgar, Bloch, Prokofiev, Shostakovich 1. I love talking to people like you!

(P.S. The Bernstein Meditations recorded on this outstanding bargain Double are also absolutely top notch works. I agree with the review wholeheartedly, but would give the CD 5*!)

P.P.S. I actually think that Kliegel's playing is actually quite good in some recordings. Her Kodaly CDs are great, and her Beethoven is very enjoyable too. Her vibrato and tuning are often quite painful to listen too when she's not right on top of her game (and naxos editing sometimes falls short of perfection in removing any such offending 'flubs')

I seem to remember that DuPre's teacher William Pleeth said of the second that he thought given the chance to hear it most people would actually prefer the second to the first, but just so few people knew about it.

I think one other problem with acceptance of the 2nd concerto is the manner in which its emotional language often is expressing not so much joy or despair, but simple ambivalence. As a result, it can't really be fit into either the heroic or tragic mould--and isn't going to give the audience what it expects.

I remember somewhere reading an article in which Schnittke had said that two of the works of Shostakovich that particularly influenced many composers of his generation were the 2nd cello concerto and the 14th string quartet: I assume it was the ambivalent emotional atmosphere of those works that he was referring to (and I see it reflected strongly in the late works of Denisov, for example).

Quote from: karlhenning on May 31, 2007, 03:23:27 PM
They're both great! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1031.0.html)

:D Way to promote your thread, Karlos ........  >:D

Quote from: edward on May 31, 2007, 04:34:31 PM
I think one other problem with acceptance of the 2nd concerto is the manner in which its emotional language often is expressing not so much joy or despair, but simple ambivalence. As a result, it can't really be fit into either the heroic or tragic mould--and isn't going to give the audience what it expects.

I remember somewhere reading an article in which Schnittke had said that two of the works of Shostakovich that particularly influenced many composers of his generation were the 2nd cello concerto and the 14th string quartet: I assume it was the ambivalent emotional atmosphere of those works that he was referring to (and I see it reflected strongly in the late works of Denisov, for example).

That's very interesting. The pain expressed is almost unbearable in parts, but there is always some relief however brief that follows.

Just as an aside: one of my favourite quriks of the piece is that it was officially first named Second concerto in G major! Similarly the first concerto is officially in Eb major. I always assumed that this was to please the authorities who at one point insisted on as many major as minor pieces, but do you think there might be any other reason for this?

Only Rostropovich for these, of course!

Karl's got the right idea, they're both immeasureably great... so

I've just listened to the 1st, and so, for the moment, it gets the nod. Just wait until I pop in the Second Concerto tomorrow.

I was looking for the Cello concertos and it is surprising how few artists recorded the second...
This sounds appealing, any comment ?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RQXPYVK1L._SS500_.jpg)

It's decent enough, but in all honesty it cannot replace Rostropovich's classic recordings (especially the second). Wallfisch is an odd one - His recordings vary from average/good to superb, but live he often plays absolutely appaulingly. Alot of 'safety playing' involved - doing portamento to fascilitate easier shifts rather than where the music demands it, lazy fingerings that aren't always the most musical choice, general milking of slow passages so that they lose their structure and become lumpy. THis is not always of course and he is often also very good live (generally he seems to be better in standard repertoire, but he is known for his exploration of the obscurer corners of the cello repertoire, and this is where the safety playing starts entering.)

But I've gone massively off topic: Generally, there are better performances of all the works on theat double CD, but it is a good release, the playing is very good, and it's useful to have it all cllected together.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21CIJYDX4nL._AA130_.jpg)

I guess I should get Slava in the 2nd. I only have Schiff (with Maxim Dmitryevich) in this one...given that I like it almost as much as the Lutoslawski concerto (and I have a serious proliferation of recordings of it) I should be having more than one 2nd.

In the pick your seven favorite concertos thread the Second made the cut but in fact I love them both. I don't have any Rostropovich version on CD, just my old records, and I decided to remedy that. I ordered the DG twofer that Guido recommended

QuoteListen to Rostropovich recorded here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ROSTROPOVICH-PALYS-GREAT-CELLO-WORKS/dp/B000001GJK/ref=sr_1_1/202-8355540-6495045?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1180654461&sr=8-1
it'll knock your socks off! I take it you read my review?

and the First with Ormandy on Sony.

Sarge

Hmm... Can't agree there. Rostropovich is better on just about every level. Kliegel is Ok in the first concerto, but then there are many good versions, but the second concerto is really played very badly - dull, emotionally detatched playing, horrible tone and vibrato etc. etc.

Quote from: Guido on May 31, 2007, 03:36:25 PM
Oh lord - this is her worst recording of major repertoire without a doubt ...

Are you sure? Her Dvorak/Elgar Cello Concerti disc holds that special honour for me. ;D And I say this as a BIG fan of Kliegel.

I have the Kliegel disc and don't like it very much either. In fact, I don't think I've ever listened to it more than twice and I must have had it for at least 6 years... I have Rostropovich in the 1st, and there's no contest there. As for the 2nd, this is the only recording I have - which may be the reason I've never really warmed to that concerto... ::)

What about this recording?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M7H36J6NL._AA240_.jpg)

I actually don't have the cello concertos at the moment in any form, so Rostropovich seems like a no brainer. What more recent alternatives are there? I did like Kliegel's Dvorak/Elgar pairing on Naxos, so I was leaning towards that set, but with the reservations by some on this thread I thought I would see what else was out there...

Quote from: MrOsa on June 01, 2007, 04:44:57 PM
I have the Kliegel disc and don't like it very much either. In fact, I don't think I've ever listened to it more than twice and I must have had it for at least 6 years... I have Rostropovich in the 1st, and there's no contest there. As for the 2nd, this is the only recording I have - which may be the reason I've never really warmed to that concerto... ::)

Yes Absolutely. As I say in my Amazon review - you'd be forgiven for thinking it wasn;t a top notch piece after this performance. That Rostropovich double CD jobbie that I recommended on the last page is a friggin steal - superb performances of rarely heard repertoire which is all top notch, with great sound and at a very low price!!

QuoteI actually don't have the cello concertos at the moment in any form, so Rostropovich seems like a no brainer. What more recent alternatives are there? I did like Kliegel's Dvorak/Elgar pairing on Naxos, so I was leaning towards that set, but with the reservations by some on this thread I thought I would see what else was out there...

Hmm. Well the Miasky is another OK reading, but it never quite has that vital spark that is needed. Really almost all version are hopelessly outclassed by Rostropovich on many levels - first of all because he was the dedicatee, a friend of the composer, he lived in the time, he played them the most, he gives most of himself, and he is simply the greatest cellist who has recorded them.

Quote from: Mark on June 01, 2007, 04:36:28 PM
Are you sure? Her Dvorak/Elgar Cello Concerti disc holds that special honour for me. ;D And I say this as a BIG fan of Kliegel.

Ah hmm... well I don't know! Tough call, but given that these two pieces are firmly entrenched warhorses of the cello literature, the damage she can do is limited. With the second concerto, this is in a lot of cases the only time they'll hear it, and I have heard two educated musicians dismiss the piece on the basis of this recording (luckily I put them onto the Rostropovich, which soon put them right!)

Quote from: James on June 01, 2007, 05:36:40 PM
oh well, different folks, different strokes... I personally really enjoy the Kliegel disc, its really good...

Yeah I s'pose!

Quote from: James on June 01, 2007, 05:49:18 PM
and i would highly recommend it to anyone who wants to hear those pieces, because i gotta say, its really really good....

How do you find it compares to Rostropovich?

Quote from: Steve on May 31, 2007, 09:43:50 PM
Only Rostropovich for these, of course!

Only?

Personally, I couldn't be happier a whole generation of cellists - after Rostropovich - decided to take up these works!

They really deserve to be living musical entities...not holed up as museum pieces.

Well, she's also done a Schnittke disc on Naxos and I dislike that one too, so maybe it's just that we two don't go well together... ::)

Quote from: MrOsa on June 02, 2007, 03:30:13 AM
Well, she's also done a Schnittke disc on Naxos and I dislike that one too, so maybe it's just that we two don't go well together... ::)

IMO, Ivashkin and Gutman are greatly to be preferred in the concerto and sonata on that disc: more accurate performances and far more intense.

Quote from: beclemund on June 01, 2007, 05:13:58 PM
What more recent alternatives are there? I did like Kliegel's Dvorak/Elgar pairing on Naxos, so I was leaning towards that set, but with the reservations by some on this thread I thought I would see what else was out there...

This one:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/ShSchVC.jpg)

It's far better than Kliegel (although my main beef isn't with her but with the orchestra and Wit's pedestrian accompaniment). If y'all won't listen to Guido maybe Gramophone will convince you:

The Second Concerto (the greater of the two, in my view) is rather more elusive and although Kliegel seems to connect with the work's schizoid spirit, Wit's direction is less strongly characterized than it might have been. The brass fanfares that greet the second Allegretto are hardly disquieting and the overall impression is of well-oiled routine. Which begs the question: does Naxos's modest price-point compensate for a lack of interpretative distinction, or would one be better advised to save up for the more comprehensively illuminating (full-price) digital accounts of Schiff and Maisky?


The Philips disc is mid-price now, not much more than the Naxox and, I think, clearly superior in every way.

But really, everyone needs Rostropovich too.

Sarge

Quote from: edward on June 02, 2007, 03:32:25 AM
IMO, Ivashkin and Gutman are greatly to be preferred in the concerto and sonata on that disc: more accurate performances and far more intense.

Seconded.

Sarge

QuoteIf y'all won't listen to Guido maybe Gramophone will convince you:

The Second Concerto (the greater of the two, in my view) is rather more elusive...

This makes me happy. And I also agree about the Schnittke. Ivashkin is another odd one. His recordings go from absolutely superb and revelatory, to really quite shoddy and amateurish. Makes you wonder.

Quote from: Guido on June 02, 2007, 05:44:44 AM
This makes me happy. And I also agree about the Schnittke. Ivashkin is another odd one. His recordings go from absolutely superb and revelatory, to really quite shoddy and amateurish. Makes you wonder.

Which were you thinking of in the shoddy and amateurish range? I think his Prokofiev concertino manages to be a mixture of the superb and the shoddy (largely because of his catastrophically bad cadenza choice).

The BBC's CD Review did a shoot out a while back and Gutman was the winner. I can't remember if it was No.1 or 2 though.

Quote from: James on June 02, 2007, 10:22:52 AM
What Grammophone says? Pfff....um no...i think too many people here worry too much about what they read is good, or what the critics say is good....the Kliegel recording is very good and isnt lacking in any way. Its a wonderful choice.

I don't worry about what I read and my favorite recordings are often at extreme odds with the critics (and with people on this forum). I like what I like regardless of the critical consensus and if you've paid any attention to my posts over the last year and a half (no reason why you should have), you'd know I'm a critic of the British press, particularly Gramophone. But, when I do read a critic whose opinion mirrors mine, I'll point it out just so others will know that I'm not entirely crazy and at least one other person agrees with me ;D

I'm happy you like Kliegel...but honestly, I have no idea why you'd prefer her Shostakovich to Rostropovich or Schiff or Ma. I really don't. I also don't understand why you'd prefer Wit's rather blah interpretations and the routine orchestral execution. It makes me wonder if you've actually heard her competition.

Sarge

QuoteI'm happy you like Kliegel...but honestly, I have no idea why you'd prefer her Shostakovich to Rostropovich or Schiff or Ma. I really don't. I also don't understand why you'd prefer Wit's rather blah interpretations and the routine orchestral execution. It makes me wonder if you've actually heard her competition.

My sentiments exactly.

In the amazing range I put Prokofiev's cello concerto op.58 (the original before the extreme modification that would lead to the Symphony concerto op.125). Also the Tcherepnin cello sonatas. In the shoddy range - his recording of Shostakovich's reorchestration of the Schumann - the playing borders on the bizarre, especially vibrato use and phrasing. Also his Tischenko concerto ain't so hot - odd bulges on every long note...

I can't remember his playing of the Prokofiev concertino, but I will listen again at some point in the future.

Quote from: Guido on June 02, 2007, 04:07:34 PM
In the amazing range I put Prokofiev's cello concerto op.58 (the original before the extreme modification that would lead to the Symphony concerto op.125).

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks this is a wonderful performance.

I also think his Schnittke cello sonatas are exceptional--the first concerto is good but not on the same level (I've not heard him in the second, as I don't really like the piece despite Rostropovich's advocacy of it).

Did Rostropovich actually ever play the Schnittke first concerto? The second concerto he premiered of course, and I actually prefer it as a piece. That final movement is just astounding. I'm also not drastically keen on the Mahlerian poses of the first, but I can see why people like it. The second concerto is quite possibly the most difficult cello concerto ever written, though I just got the score of the wonderful Gruber concerto today, and it must surely give it a run for its money. There is not a single 'easy' bar in the Gruber (apart from the rests!).

I am very fond of the Prokofiev op.58 - alot of very nice touches are lost in the revision, even if the revision when taken as a whole is undoubtedly the better piece. I recently got the score to the concerto and its also terribly difficult.

I'm pretty sure Rostropovich didn't ever play the first concerto: for me, Gutman's the gold standard in it.

I do very much like the finale of the second concerto: I just find the first four movements rather uninteresting.

Agreed totally about the merits of the Prokofiev concerto. Is there a recording of the Gruber available?

Yes:

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/6342465/a/Gruber:+Manhattan+Broadcasts,+etc+%2F+Gruber,+Cohen,+et+al.htm

It was premiered by Ma. A video was made of him playing it (really pushing him to the edge of his technique), but it is no longer available, and I am still looking out for it (at a non extortionate Amazon used and new price!). But Cohen's version presented here is absolutely first class and he tackles the score with consumate ease and beauty. The solo line goes up to The high f above the high f above the f thats on top of the treble clef, and is regularly in the absolute stratisferic regions. The use of tonality and disonance is also very beautiful and personal also. If you know any of Gruber's work, it is very much in the Neo-romantic idiom, but has real integrty and personality. The piece is a post modern masterpiece if ever there was one.

BOY, a 5-yr old thread on the Shosty Cello Concertos that may warrant some updating! :)

Just left the quoted post below in the listening thread - my other recordings of these works are Schiff doing both & Rostropovich doing No. 1 w/ Osawa - from reading through this thread, appears that I should obtain Rostropovich performing both concertos?  BUT, which recording(s) to choose?  He must have done these a number of times since both were dedicated to him, IIRC?

SO, updated Rostropovich recommendations and suggestions for other performers/recordings that my have popped up in the last 5 years -  :D

QuoteAnother BRO bargain ($14) - 2 disc set of the cello works of:

Shostokovich, Dmitri - Cello Sonatas & Concertos w/ Viviane Spanoghe, Andre de Groote (piano) & Emil Tabakov conducting the Sofia Soloists SO; recordings made over a 25 year span (1984-2009) and re-issued by Talent; not familiar w/ these performers and have not culled my Shosty cello recordings in a while, BUT purchase prompted by two excellent reviews in MusicWeb (HERE1 (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Apr10/Shostakovich_cello_DOM3810.htm) & HERE2 (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Mar10/Shostakovich_Cello_DOM381012.htm), the latter a 'Recording of the Month') - SO, if you desire to have these cello works in one small convenient 2-CD set, a recommendation! :)

NOTE: 2nd Cello Sonata (DSCH's last work apparently) is an arrangement of the Viola Sonata by Daniel Shafran.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-K2kcqck/0/L/Shosty_CelloSpanoghe-L.jpg)

The socalled 2nd cello sonata here appears to be an arrangement of the wonderful, and haunting, viola sonata.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 24, 2012, 06:39:43 AM
BOY, a 5-yr old thread on the Shosty Cello Concertos that may warrant some updating! :)

Just left the quoted post below in the listening thread - my other recordings of these works are Schiff doing both & Rostropovich doing No. 1 w/ Osawa - from reading through this thread, appears that I should obtain Rostropovich performing both concertos?  BUT, which recording(s) to choose?  He must have done these a number of times since both were dedicated to him, IIRC?

SO, updated Rostropovich recommendations and suggestions for other performers/recordings that my have popped up in the last 5 years -  :D

I, too, have Schiff/Philips and Slava No.1/Ozawa-Erato. Schiff MUST be considered No.2, after Slava?

Well, after commenting a few posts back, I looked on Amazon USA for Rostropovich recordings of BOTH concertos (plenty w/ him doing the first one) - below is about all that I found (the last one is OOP & at an exorbitant price); now, more may be there and/or other recordings on non-USA sites?

SO, any comments on the ones below or other suggestions - thanks!  :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W40ZDV95L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ovr0wk3VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)   (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61r6KgROjPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Cast my vote for I like both.

The first Cello Concerto would be my favourite, both I absolutely like both.

This new one is pretty good--the bass drum whacks in the 2nd Concerto will shake the foundation of your house!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DqqVyt3xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)