From Roger Ebert's Little Movie Glossary, a compendium of cinematic tropes and clichés:
Roll Over, Beethoven
Any character seen intently enjoying classical music (especially opera) will do evil. Any character seen dancing and grooving to rock and roll will redeem and enlighten.
This is true. It's been my experience that in TV and movies, classical music lovers are usually portrayed as either pompous if intelligent fools (Frasier, Charles Emerson Winchester) or serial killers (Hannibal Lecter). This may simply be writers' shorthand, a way of tossing off a few character traits without expending effort, but more to the point, it makes education suspect, establishing the common-man bona fides of the filmmakers and any common-man characters. As with any stereotype, it has little basis in fact. I've made a few friends here, and none of them are snobs. Of course, for all I know, there may be a few serial killers in the bunch.
On the other hand, I've been listening on Thursday morning to a radio personality named Teri Noel Towe, who broadcasts on WPRB, Princeton, and he is indeed pompous. He plays great music, though.
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 10:22:24 AM
From Roger Ebert's Little Movie Glossary, a compendium of cinematic tropes and clichés:
Roll Over, Beethoven
Any character seen intently enjoying classical music (especially opera) will do evil. Any character seen dancing and grooving to rock and roll will redeem and enlighten.
This is true. It's been my experience that in TV and movies, classical music lovers are usually portrayed as either pompous if intelligent fools (Frasier, Charles Emerson Winchester) or serial killers (Hannibal Lecter).
Goes back a ways, too (Otto Preminger's
Laura, 1944).
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 10:28:23 AM
Goes back a ways, too (Otto Preminger's Laura, 1944).
Clifton Webb was something of an archetype in that film: a cultured, vaguely homosexual villain modeled somewhat on Alexander Woolcott.
Then there was A Night at the Opera, but at least in that movie, opera was OK as long as Allan Jones and Kitty Carlisle were singing it.
Then again, if we shift to literature, the music lovers got much more sympathetic portrayals: Mann, Hesse, Proust...
Quote from: Florestan on June 16, 2009, 11:05:56 AM
Then again, if we shift to literature, the music lovers got much more sympathetic portrayals: Mann, Hesse, Proust...
True, but I was thinking more of popular media, particularly movies and TV.
I've been reading John Updike since he died, and I notice that for such an inteectual polymath, he doesn't write about music much. The visual arts figure much more prominently in his work. (He did publish art criticism.) For updike, it seemed, music wasn't so much an art practiced by grat masters as it was a kind of memory-trigger. When he he mentioned music at all, he tends to stick to the hits of his youth, stuff that can launch a meditation on the past and lost time. While he will say, for example, that some sight resembles a Goya or a Francis Bacon painting, he will never say that some sound is reminiscent of a Beethoven Symphony.
I'm reading his last book of short stories, "My Father's Tears," right now. It's excellent. The stories tend to cover the same ground over and over, but then that's true of Jane Austen's novels, too.
Not necessarily opera. There is also the typical evil man who has chopin or mozart-like piano music playing in the background, waiting for his date to arrive, and she will barely escape with her life.
This music is part of his overly sophisticated and fastidious lifestyle, which is a clear sign of a destructive personality, according to popular culture.
I remember watching an episode of Boston Public once in which the prissy assistant principal was seen in his office after hours listening to Barber's Adagio for Strings on the radio. Great, I thought: another tight-assed white guy who likes classical music.
The only good guy I can remember liking classical music was Columbo. (His wife was said to love Madame Butterfly.) Woody Allen has had nice things to say in his movies about Mahler and Mozart, too, but he tends to go the other way, judging people who like music he regards as unfit for human consumption.
I thought that they went overboard in the I, Claudius series, with Caligula listening to Webern at the beginning of one scene.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 12:09:21 PM
Caligula listening to Webern at the beginning of one scene.
:o :D
(http://www.agent007.nu/drax-piano.jpg)
The villain, Hugo Drax playing Chopin (raindrop prelude, I think) in James Bond Moonraker
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 11:29:55 AM
True, but I was thinking more of popular media, particularly movies and TV.
I've got the idea, but IMO popular media, particularly movies and TV, with their anti-intellectualistic bias, are the least qualified to portray music kovers, witness the whole bunch of classical-music-lover serial killers, freaks and frankensteins. ;D
Actually serious music doesn't often come up in popular culture, and when it does I'm not so convinced it is always in a negative light. One of the few that comes to mind, Sherlock Holmes was a skilled violinist and lover of music, both in the written stories and in the various popular adaptions.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 12:37:33 PM
Actually serious music doesn't often come up in popular culture, and when it does I'm not so convinced it is always in a negative light. One of the few that comes to mind, Sherlock Holmes was a skilled violinist and lover of music, both in the written stories and in the various popular adaptions.
True, but S. H. was portrayed as such by Arthur Conan Doyle. I wonder what the producers / directors would have made of him absent this reference.
Quote from: Florestan on June 16, 2009, 12:27:26 PM
I've got the idea, but IMO popular media, particularly movies and TV, with their anti-intellectualistic bias, are the least qualified to portray music lovers, witness the whole bunch of classical-music-lover serial killers, freaks and frankensteins. ;D
Agreed, but then that's kind of the point of this thread.
Now, to repair to my basement and continue the torture of my prisoners.
Quote from: Florestan on June 16, 2009, 12:40:44 PM
True, but S. H. was portrayed as such by Arthur Conan Doyle. I wonder what the producers / directors would have made of him absent this reference.
And the novels come from the 19th and early 20th centuries, before the advent and industrializaton of movies.
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 01:02:47 PM
And the novels come from the 19th and early 20th centuries, before the advent and industrializaton of movies.
I'm not referring to the written stories (I'd hardly call them novels) but to the film and TV portrayals, specifically to the Basil Rathbone series, which spanned the 1940s and 50's.
I also recall an episode of the sopranos where a sympathetic person who can identify the main character (Tony Soprano) at the scene of a crime is shown listening to some odd atonal piano music. (Later the witness finds out who he is going to identify and is too frightened to cooperate.)
This is one of the saddest threads :'(... ah, sigh...
...on so many levels...
To me, this is like my dirty little secret. I can practically remember the day when I realized that this kind of music wasn't going to make my life any easier;itslike John Wayne with an effeminate toy poodle.
Never mind "classical" music:the bad guys always love Bach or Chopin. What is the depiction of the "avant" music lover (besides null)?
I do remember the day in the music store many years ago, when I finally rung up a guy who brought me Ligeti and Xenakis. Finally! I thought, here's a guy who likes the same stuff I do. So I began to engage him, and, woooah... the guy was the snootiest sniffy (oh please, say it with that daaahling accent).
"Yes, yes...I know."
We like to say "I know" a lot, don't we?
Anyhow, the premise of OP's assertion seems to hold true. On top of this, FIND me a character, good OR bad, who can stomach anything beyond Mahler (and I don't think serial killers listen to Mahler... no guilt!). The bad guy ALWAYS seems to be playing the same Chopin or Bach piece (Bach organ= Phantom of the Opera).
Ha! then there's a bit of that 'ole Ludwig Van in A Clockwork Orange.
Well, I've been formulating my thesis on this topic for quite some time, but you caught me off guard ::). Classical music in "film" certainly has psychological meaning and use. When was the last time you tried to play just about ANYTHING classical to someone and were told:
SOUNDS LIKE MOVIE MUSIC!
The "elite cabal that run the world (and make movies)" have usurped the achievements of western culture and put them in context for us, through their pervasive control of all media.
...calling robnewman :o...
It's because of the truth that I've found concerning OP's thread that I can get such a miserable FU attitude towards "non lovers". Who's elitism-ing whom?
First they will come after our guns...then they will come for our headphones!
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 01:19:10 PM
I'm not referring to the written stories (I'd hardly call them novels) but to the film and TV portrayals, specifically to the Basil Rathbone series, which spanned the 1940s and 50's.
Yes, but Florestan's point was that the character trait was already there in Conan Doyle's books long
before anyone ever thought of making them into movies.
I have never watched The Sopranos, and in any event, no rule is so rigid that it does not admit of exceptions.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 01:43:34 PM
Anyhow, the premise of OP's assertion seems to hold true.
Who is OP?
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 11:29:55 AM
I'm reading his last book of short stories, "My Father's Tears," right now. It's excellent. The stories tend to cover the same ground over and over, but then that's true of Jane Austen's novels, too.
That's because neither Updike or Austen are geniuses. :josquin:
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 02:28:07 PM
Yes, but Florestan's point was that the character trait was already there in Conan Doyle's books long before anyone ever thought of making them into movies.
They revised many aspects of the original stories, morphing Dr. Watson from an inquisitive partner to a clowning sidekick, so they clearly would have dropped Holmes' interest in music if it suited them.
The entire topic seems nonsensical to me. You'd have them make movies with scenes of people listening to Shostakovitch on their stereo sets? References to classical music, as well as to other non-popular art forms are just not common in commercial movies. Does that really surprise anyone?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 16, 2009, 03:26:05 PM
That's because neither Updike or Austen are geniuses. :josquin:
Neither Updike nor Austen
is a genius. Or/nor constructions connecting singular nouns take a singular verb.
And maybe I was wrong about classical music lovers not being snobs or criminals.
Quote from: Scarpia on June 16, 2009, 03:34:45 PM
The entire topic seems nonsensical to me. You'd have them make movies with scenes of people listening to Shostakovitch on their stereo sets? References to classical music, as well as to other non-popular art forms are just not common in commercial movies. Does that really surprise anyone?
Sigh.
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 12:06:48 PM
The only good guy I can remember liking classical music was Columbo. (His wife was said to love Madame Butterfly.) Woody Allen has had nice things to say in his movies about Mahler and Mozart, too, but he tends to go the other way, judging people who like music he regards as unfit for human consumption.
Yes, Columbo loved classical music. His favorite composer was Johann Strauss, and his wife loved Strauss too. But then again, Columbo and his wife generally happen to be fans of anything the murderer is a fan of, because Columbo always wants to butter the killer up. ;D
I should also note that at least two murderers in Columbo were classical music lovers: an architect in season 1 (played by Patrick O'Neal) reveals his scheme by leaving a stolen car switched to the classical radio station, and Etude in Black stars John Cassavetes as a murderous conductor.
So that was just smooth work on Columbo's part, eh, Brian?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2009, 04:45:21 PM
So that was just smooth work on Columbo's part, eh, Brian?
Well, Columbo
did always volunteer Johann Strauss' name specifically and waltzes generally, which was amusing when the killer was, like the O'Neal character, a real music snob. :D
Quote from: ' on June 16, 2009, 04:55:35 PM
I don't think Mr. Holland was _truly_ evil.'
No, he just wrote lousy music. ;)
There are positive representations of music lovers in the movies. I think of The Shawshank Redemption scene when the Andy Duphrene character has commandeered the sound system of the prison and broadcasts opera. What was that duet? (C'mon now, someone with a better memory than mine should have that right away!) And in Pretty Woman, the Julia Roberts character's reaction to opera (she really, really liked it) was used as proof that she was actually a very classy person (and the hooker job just a temporary necessity). In the Inspector Morse series from BBC, which I used to enjoy, Morse was portrayed as a music lover who attended many performances and sang in a local chorus. The soundtrack of the episodes used to include well chosen opera selections.
Quote from: Brian on June 16, 2009, 04:41:02 PM
I should also note that at least two murderers in Columbo were classical music lovers: an architect in season 1 (played by Patrick O'Neal) reveals his scheme by leaving a stolen car switched to the classical radio station, and Etude in Black stars John Cassavetes as a murderous conductor.
Then again, Johnny Cash once appeared as a country singer who murders his wife and the young girls he had corrputed, so I guess there was a kind of equal-opprtunity villainy in place.
Quote from: Brian on June 16, 2009, 05:14:12 PM
Well, Columbo did always volunteer Johann Strauss' name specifically and waltzes generally, which was amusing when the killer was, like the O'Neal character, a real music snob. :D
A trick! Subtle annoyance, to set the villain off guard! 8)
Quote from: secondwind on June 16, 2009, 05:26:52 PM
There are positive representations of music lovers in the movies. I think of The Shawshank Redemption scene when the Andy Duphrene character has commandeered the sound system of the prison and broadcasts opera. What was that duet? (C'mon now, someone with a better memory than mine should have that right away!) And in Pretty Woman, the Julia Roberts character's reaction to opera (she really, really liked it) was used as proof that she was actually a very classy person (and the hooker job just a temporary necessity). In the Inspector Morse series from BBC, which I used to enjoy, Morse was portrayed as a music lover who attended many performances and sang in a local chorus. The soundtrack of the episodes used to include well chosen opera selections.
On those lines, Nick Cage's at-first-edgy character in
Moonstruck has a passion for the opera, and his sharing that passion with Loretta is pretty straightforwardly positive and feel-good-ish.
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 02:35:35 PM
Who is OP?
The Original Poster, who started this thread.
I remember in
Six Feet Under, Margaret Chenowith, the Mother from Hell, often played opera music, as did Lionel Luther in
Smallville, though in the end he wasn't all bad.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2009, 02:59:19 AM
On those lines, Nick Cage's at-first-edgy character in Moonstruck has a passion for the opera, and his sharing that passion with Loretta is pretty straightforwardly positive and feel-good-ish.
I thought of that, too. I think the original rule in ebert's glossary refers to villains specifically in crome or action pictures, though it may be expanded to fit, in modified form, comedies. I hadn;t know about Lionel Luther. I stopped watching Smallvile a while ago, and the character was pretty bad.
Quote from: Wendell_E on June 17, 2009, 05:52:07 AM
The Original Poster, who started this thread.
Original poster? Why ... that's me!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 17, 2009, 02:56:52 AM
A trick! Subtle annoyance, to set the villain off guard! 8)
Well, there was one episode in which Patrick McGoohan played the murderer (as he did three times), who in this case worked for the CIA or some unnamed espionage organization. During one of their interviews, he plays Madame Butterfly on the stereo. Columbo says, "That's my wife's favorite music." McGoohan says, "I know." And Columbo responds, "You had my house bugged." From this we may conclude that Mrs. Columbo actually did listen to opera. It wasn't just a ruse on her husband's part.
I wish I knew my Shakespeare this well ...
Bonus question: What classic character in literature was Columbo based on?
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 17, 2009, 07:48:55 AM
Bonus question: What classic character in literature was Columbo based on?
C. Auguste Dupin? Porfir Petrovich? :)
Quote from: Florestan on June 17, 2009, 10:36:02 AM
C. Auguste Dupin? Porfir Petrovich? :)
Well, you're half right. ???
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 17, 2009, 07:42:09 AM
Original poster? Why ... that's me!
Oh. I thought it was Ron Howard ...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5d_fpdUHmxc/SQnvgQNfWmI/AAAAAAAAAuI/j5hXqnkdXtU/s400/jake.jpg)
Jake Fratelli, opera-singing bad guy in
"The Goonies".
Quote from: secondwind on June 16, 2009, 05:26:52 PM
There are positive representations of music lovers in the movies. I think of The Shawshank Redemption scene when the Andy Duphrene character has commandeered the sound system of the prison and broadcasts opera. What was that duet? (C'mon now, someone with a better memory than mine should have that right away!) ............In the Inspector Morse series from BBC, which I used to enjoy, Morse was portrayed as a music lover who attended many performances and sang in a local chorus. The soundtrack of the episodes used to include well chosen opera selections.
I think it was Janowitz and Mathis singing 'Che soave zeffretto' from Bohm's recording of The Marriage of Figaro. As I was reading through the thread, I was thinking of Morse, you got there before me. :)
Mike
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 17, 2009, 11:10:14 AM
Well, you're half right. ???
Which half? :)
He could also have learned a thing or two from Javert. ;D
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 16, 2009, 11:29:55 AM
I've been reading John Updike since he died, and I notice that for such an inteectual polymath, he doesn't write about music much. The visual arts figure much more prominently in his work. (He did publish art criticism.) For updike, it seemed, music wasn't so much an art practiced by grat masters as it was a kind of memory-trigger. When he he mentioned music at all, he tends to stick to the hits of his youth, stuff that can launch a meditation on the past and lost time. While he will say, for example, that some sight resembles a Goya or a Francis Bacon painting, he will never say that some sound is reminiscent of a Beethoven Symphony.
I'm reading his last book of short stories, "My Father's Tears," right now. It's excellent. The stories tend to cover the same ground over and over, but then that's true of Jane Austen's novels, too.
This is true. We'll never be able to ask him why he avoided music, and did write a whole novel around computer programming. There are plenty references to forties popular music in his work (including a poem in
Endpoint), and I suspect he didn't want to alienate readers. Also, popular music is more particular as a mood trigger. Updike's first wife was into early music, and U. did go to the Boston Symphony concerts, including one time with John Cheever, when both writers had been kicked out by their wives. As Updike came to pick up Cheever it turned out Cheeever was so drunk he'd forgotten to put on any clothes.
My Father's Tears is an excellent collection, isn't it?
Quote from: Herman on June 17, 2009, 11:47:40 PM
My Father's Tears is an excellent collection, isn't it?
Yes, so far.
Thanks for the gossip. I remember many years ago --- I'd say back in the late eighties --- Updike wrote a story about a couple that joins an informal group of recorder players, and by the end, of course, everyone has left his or her spouse to live with one of the other members. It might have been inspired by his first wife's interests, though it was written long after his second marriage. It's probably in one of the later collections. I just don't know which one.
Your post confirms what I have always suspected: that Updike was indeed musically aware, but it seems that music as an art form, as something that composers put their minds to, did not interest him as much as the visual arts. Indeed, it didn't seem to interest him much at all.
P.S. The story is "The Man Who Became a Soprano" and apepars in "The Afterlife." Strange, apparently Updike could play the recorder, (http://obit-mag.com/viewmedia.php?prmMID=5255) and yet got only one story out of it. In one instance, he seems to know much more than he was telling.
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 18, 2009, 10:48:51 AM
P.S. The story is "The Man Who Became a Soprano" and apepars in "The Afterlife." Strange, apparently Updike could play the recorder, (http://obit-mag.com/viewmedia.php?prmMID=5255) and yet got only one story out of it. In one instance, he seems to know much more than he was telling.
Here's a picture of Updike and wife nr 1
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/1/27/1233089675309/John-Updike-and-his-wife-001.jpg)
Obviously Updike got a kick out of putting himself in less-cultured shoes, a car dealer, or, in the very last story he wrote, a life insurance salesman, turned floor polisher. This act of the imagination was an essential part of writing for JU.