GMG Classical Music Forum

Hello all,

I would like to hear your opinions regarding where I should go next on my classical music adventure.

My listening during the last year has been largely undirected and random. I've just been picking up pieces here and there, listening to lots of different music, from Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Sibelius, Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg and Shostakovich. As this list suggests, I am still very much at the beginning of my classical music adventure.

While I have enjoyed jumping between composers and genres, as well as catching up with the more 'mainstream' and famous works that were missing from my listening CV, I have missed having a direction or pattern to my musical journey.

A couple of years ago, I thoroughly enjoyed working my way through the Mahler symphonies, giving each one many repeated listens until I was ready to 'move on' to the next. I read Mahler biographies and letters alongside his music as well as non-technical, abstract writing about his music. This kind of 'study' (I use inverted commas because I was studying on a purely aesthetic, abstract and historical/biographical level as opposed to musical study) was extremely rewarding. I felt as though I came to know (or perhaps apprehend is a more suitable word) a little something about Mahler the man and Mahler the artist while journeying through his symphonies. I also found myself enjoying reading about the history and the wider cultural context.

What I am trying to say (yes, this rambling post does have a point  :P) is that I very much enjoyed becoming absorbed in one composer's works like this and I am looking for a similar experience in my listening again. I haven't done this with any composer other than Mahler. So the question, then, is where to go next? I was hoping for more enlightened and knowledgeable people to make some recommendations.  ;D

The period of history which particularly excites me is the period around the fin de siècle and the early 20th Century. I am fascinated by the kinds of questions that were being asked both intellectually and artistically during this period (the kind of adumbration of modernism to come), especially in literature which is my main passion in life. Unfortunately, I am not as knowledgeable in music as I am in literature, so I hope that some of you will be able to make some interesting recommendations about where to go next.

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers my cry for help,
D.

P.S. Forgot to add that any recommendations of pieces to start with and reading to go alongside the listening would also be welcomed.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 19, 2009, 07:45:29 AM
The question, then, is where to go next.

Prokofiev.

There's a wealth of material to be had in a myriad of styles.

Start with his piano concertos. Prokofiev was a virtuoso pianist and he had an especially keen ear when writing for the keyboard.

Then his piano sonatas; Romeo and Juliet (plus a slew of other ballets); his operas (Love For Three Oranges to start); violin concertos; then perhaps his symphonies which don't quite grab me as much as other works of his but are still good.   

Quote from: Daedalus on June 19, 2009, 07:45:29 AM
The period of history which particularly excites me is the period around the fin de siècle and the early 20th Century. I am fascinated by the kinds of questions that were being asked both intellectually and artistically during this period (the kind of adumbration of modernism to come), especially in literature which is my main passion in life.

Picking up your first sentence, perhaps you might try Richard Strauss.  What brought it to mind is Alex Ross's book, The Rest is Noise: Listening to the Twentieth Century, and in it he begins with Strauss's Salome, as a defining moment.  (PS, I can't recommend the book highly enough.)  For recordings, there are many fine ones: the Sinopoli recording with Cheryl Studer and Bryn Terfel is very popular; I like Michael Schønwandt with Inge Nielsen.  There are some on DVD if you want to watch the opera: the one with Karl Böhm starring Teresa Stratas is excellent.

Other Strauss items to explore: Elektra, the Four Last Songs, his orchestral tone poems. 

--Bruce

Try this: go and listen to something you really don´t feel like at the moment...in order to get unexpected inpulses and opening up your view radically. Of cause this can be difficult, if you don´t know the composer or style of music already. You could go to the music library and pick up random cd´s from orchestra, solo, ensemble etc. and you can zap through them all, when you get home. Or just zap around on youtube. There is a lot of great stuff there, I have learned so much from that!

You will love Carl Nielsen. Listen to his third, fourth and fifth symphonies, which are from the early 20th century (1911-1922). Then branch out to the rest. He engaged in the kinds of questioning you have in mind.

No one has mentioned Debussy yet, but he, too, questioned everything that came before.

  Since you love Mahler so much I just couldn't resist:

  HINT: "There was only Beethoven and Wagner  " - Gustav Mahler

  Hey these were Mahler's words NOT mine!

 
  marvin

Quote from: Daedalus on June 19, 2009, 07:45:29 AM
...What I am trying to say (yes, this rambling post does have a point  :P) is that I very much enjoyed becoming absorbed in one composer's works like this and I am looking for a similar experience in my listening again. I haven't done this with any composer other than Mahler. So the question, then, is where to go next?...

Bruckner.  Ravel.  Schoenberg.  Stravinsky.  Shostakovich.  Any one of those are multifaceted enough to reward intense study.

For Bruckner, just about anything would do for an opener, but perhaps the Fourth and Seventh Symphonies are the most accessible.  Save the Fifth till you're hooked on him; it's definitely "advanced listening."

Ravel's personal life is an enigma, but everything he wrote is at least interesting, and quite a few of them are among the greatest masterworks we have: La Valse, Le Tombeau de Couperin, the orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition, the two piano concertos, even Ma mère l'Oye and Bolero in their way.

Schoenberg's music, as you may realize already, is both as radical as music comes and the next logical step beyond Wagner and Mahler.  Gurrelieder, the Five Orchestral Pieces, the Variations for Orchestra, and Pierrot Lunaire are among his defining compositions.

Stravinsky was not only a great composer, but one of music's most interesting characters.  Start with the early ballets through The Rite of Spring, then try some later pieces like the Dumbarton Oaks Concerto or the Symphony of Psalms.

And Shostakovich's life and work both repay deep study.  (Be warned against the book "Testimony," though; it's been  pretty thoroughly debunked.)  His symphonies cover every stage of his musical development and are each a fascinating musical document.

Zemlinsky comes to mind here.

Quote from: Joe Barron on June 19, 2009, 02:04:56 PM
You will love Carl Nielsen. Listen to his third, fourth and fifth symphonies, which are from the early 20th century (1911-1922). Then branch out to the rest. He engaged in the kinds of questioning you have in mind.

No one has mentioned Debussy yet, but he, too, questioned everything that came before.

My gut reaction was Nielsen too, especially symphonies 4-6. Also Vaughan Williams symphonies 4-6.

Thank you for all of your replies so far guys. They have all been excellent.

I'll be printing all of these posts out at some point and heading to my library later in the week to reserve some CDs and books.

D.

I'll second Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise, both as a great read and a useful starting point for exploring fin de siècle and early modernist works.

Another fun way to explore classical music, instead of by composer or period, is by genre. I've been exploring the symphony in particular for the last couple years and feel I've only scratched the surface. I've been re-acquainted with old favorites and exposed to many composers new to me.

A useful book, btw, is Michael Steinberg's The Symphony: A Listener's Guide, which offers the mix of biographical info and intelligent layman's musical criticism you discuss.

Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2009, 03:25:57 AM
Also Vaughan Williams symphonies 4-6.

Great suggestion!  :)  # 6 immediately connected with me, and is still my favorite RVW symphony.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to make some suggestions.

As quite a few of you mentioned Nielsen and Vaughan Williams, I have actually gone ahead and ordered some symphonies after conducting some research around the Internet and in my books.

Just want to reply to a few of you individually.

Quote from: Grazioso on June 20, 2009, 04:25:15 AM
Another fun way to explore classical music, instead of by composer or period, is by genre. I've been exploring the symphony in particular for the last couple years and feel I've only scratched the surface. I've been re-acquainted with old favorites and exposed to many composers new to me.

This is definitely an interesting way of directing your listening.

Part of the problem I have been having is that my listening has been so random, and I have jumped about so much, that there is no method to my madness and I don't have a direction to keep me motivated and so my listening tends to tail off a little bit. I find I end up putting on the same things and not 'moving on'. I hope that makes sense.

So my question is how did you direct your listening around the symphony genre? What was the method in your approach? Would be interested to know.

Quote from: jochanaan on June 19, 2009, 03:36:10 PM
Bruckner.  Ravel.  Schoenberg.  Stravinsky.  Shostakovich.  Any one of those are multifaceted enough to reward intense study.

Great post jochanaan. I already have a lot of Stravinsky and Shostakovich in my collection, although I have only just touched the surface with each. Your other suggestions have been noted and will be going on my list.  ;D

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 19, 2009, 02:42:44 PM
 Since you love Mahler so much I just couldn't resist:

 HINT: "There was only Beethoven and Wagner  " - Gustav Mahler

 Hey these were Mahler's words NOT mine!

 
 marvin

marvin - I have often thought of exploring Wagner but I'm afraid to say that I just don't know where to start. Any suggestions?

Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond guys.

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 20, 2009, 10:14:30 AM


marvin - I have often thought of exploring Wagner but I'm afraid to say that I just don't know where to start. Any suggestions?

Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond guys.

D.

  I can safely say that all of Wagner's mature operas (the four operas of the Ring), Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal and Die Meistersinger are essential for any decent opera collection.  Tristan und Isolde is my favorite work, it is also a pivotal piece in the history of classical music  in that with the Tristan Chord Wagner propelled modernism further than any composer that came before him! The influence that Wagner's mature operas had on Mahler, Schoenberg, Debussy and Richard Strauss is immeasurable.

  I suppose you could try/sample one of the earlier operas (the Flying Dutchman, Lohengrin or Tannhauser) to get a taste of Wagner. But you must hear Tristan und Isolde and The Ring cycle at some point in the future...they are incredible. 

  Of all the 750+ CDs in my collection this is easily my favorite:

  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KJBQBTCRL._SS500_.jpg)


  Good Luck in your exploration.

  marvin

Quote from: Daedalus on June 20, 2009, 10:14:30 AM

So my question is how did you direct your listening around the symphony genre? What was the method in your approach? Would be interested to know.

My approach has provided both structure and allowed me to indulge my love of seeking out the unfamiliar. I collect complete symphony cycles (I'm up to around 80 or 90 composers so far), often leaping about in what I buy and listen to based on reading, recommendations, and sheer curiosity. Yet, at the same time, I don't listen to music as background noise, but just sit and listen; even if I might move from an early Romantic to a 12-tone modernist to a Classicist in the span of a few days, I'm paying attention and mentally comparing and cataloging. I'm thinking about melodic phrasing and harmonic progression, about structure and instrumentation, about whether there's any sort of programmatic context, about how one composer handles the genre versus one of his contemporaries, and so forth.

Why the symphony in particular? Because it's one of classical music's most prestigious genres, tending to be grand in conception and serious in intent, occupying most all the great composers and countless lesser ones, and including many of music's greatest achievements. It also exemplifies most of the major shifts in musical taste and theory over the centuries. And I personally like large-scale pieces that tell a lengthy, dramatic story in sound yet still possess a clear structure, and symphonies tend to do that.

I would explore pre-Romantic music: Classical but especially Baroque & Early Music.
You'll see that it will help to eleveate to some extent the burden of your depression as well.

Q

Quote from: marvinbrown on June 20, 2009, 11:23:19 AM
 Good Luck in your exploration.

 marvin

Thanks for the advice Marvin. It has been noted and placed on the list.  8)

Quote from: Grazioso on June 21, 2009, 03:24:17 AM
My approach has provided both structure and allowed me to indulge my love of seeking out the unfamiliar. I collect complete symphony cycles (I'm up to around 80 or 90 composers so far), often leaping about in what I buy and listen to based on reading, recommendations, and sheer curiosity. Yet, at the same time, I don't listen to music as background noise, but just sit and listen;

Thanks for replying Grazioso.

I tend to do this as well, often doing lots of reading about the composer and the piece, and then devoting the rest of an evening to listening to the music.

QuoteWhy the symphony in particular? Because it's one of classical music's most prestigious genres, tending to be grand in conception and serious in intent, occupying most all the great composers and countless lesser ones, and including many of music's greatest achievements. It also exemplifies most of the major shifts in musical taste and theory over the centuries. And I personally like large-scale pieces that tell a lengthy, dramatic story in sound yet still possess a clear structure, and symphonies tend to do that.

I also love the symphony and it is where I have conducted most of my classical music listening in the past. I actually already have the Steinberg book you recommend and find that it is a good companion when exploring new music within that genre.

I guess that this can be part of the problem in terms of forming a direction and structure to your listening habits. There is so much music out there to listen to that it can be overwhelming. I quite like the idea of focusing on the symphony and thus having direction but also moving out of my comfort zone quite often to experience the unfamiliar, as you put it. Good advice.

Quote from: Que on June 21, 2009, 05:54:29 AM
I would explore pre-Romantic music: Classical but especially Baroque & Early Music.
You'll see that it will help to eleveate to some extent the burden of your mental problems as well.

Q

Thanks for replying Que. Interesting that you say this as I have often found Classical and Baroque more difficult to appreciate. I think this has a lot to do with the way that I experience the music, which is mainly an aesthetic and emotional response for me. It is difficult to explain, but when listening to music, I tend to see images, colours or come to apprehend ideas and sensations in my mind. This happens more often with Romantic era music. That is to say that I find this music has a greater tendency to move me in this way. That is not to say that I don't find Classical or Baroque music to be pleasant and enjoyable. But I'm sure that this fault lies with me and that I am missing out on something somewhere along the line.

I was interested by this comment. Why do you think that pre-Romantic music in particular would help me in my current predicament?

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 21, 2009, 06:15:07 AM
Thanks for replying Que. Interesting that you say this as I have often found Classical and Baroque more difficult to appreciate. I think this has a lot to do with the way that I experience the music, which is mainly an aesthetic and emotional response for me. It is difficult to explain, but when listening to music, I tend to see images, colours or come to apprehend ideas and sensations in my mind. This happens more often with Romantic era music. That is to say that I find this music has a greater tendency to move me in this way. That is not to say that I don't find Classical or Baroque music to be pleasant and enjoyable. But I'm sure that this fault lies with me and that I am missing out on something somewhere along the line.

I was interested by this comment. Why do you think that pre-Romantic music in particular would help me in my current predicament?

D.

As much as I love Romantic era music (my favorite era), I wholeheartedly agreed with Que here.

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 21, 2009, 06:25:50 AM
As much as I love Romantic era music (my favorite era), I wholeheartedly agreed with Que here.

Why's that ChamberNut?

D.

Bjorn--the absence of Bach's name from your list suggests the obvious "next place to go."  Not knowing Bach in music is like not knowing Newton in physics.  I suggest hastening to listen slowly and reflectively to his Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin, his Suites for solo cello, solo keyboard music starting with the Goldberg Variations, then to ensemble music like the beloved violin concertos and the Brandenburgs, and then to the cantatas and great choral works like the SMP.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 21, 2009, 06:15:07 AM
Thanks for replying Que. Interesting that you say this as I have often found Classical and Baroque more difficult to appreciate. I think this has a lot to do with the way that I experience the music, which is mainly an aesthetic and emotional response for me. It is difficult to explain, but when listening to music, I tend to see images, colours or come to apprehend ideas and sensations in my mind. This happens more often with Romantic era music. That is to say that I find this music has a greater tendency to move me in this way. That is not to say that I don't find Classical or Baroque music to be pleasant and enjoyable. But I'm sure that this fault lies with me and that I am missing out on something somewhere along the line.

I was interested by this comment. Why do you think that pre-Romantic music in particular would help me in my current predicament?

D.

Well, as you might have guessed I was talking from experience. Baroque music and Early music do connect us to not only a different aesthetic world but also to different emotions - assuming the listener is able to connect to what is beyond the pleasent and enjoyable surface. I found music by, for instance Bach, soothing during my own experience, it's sometimes called "balm for the soul" for a reason!  :) Visiting a Mahler concert is basically paying to feel utterly depressed for almost two hours, which is an invigorating experience for someone with a happy state of mind, but not advisable in other circumstances because it will extrapolate, and deepen anxieties during listening. I didn't listen to Mahler for years - came all much too close...

So some Desprez, Bach, Händel, Vivaldi, Haydn and Mozart will give you the opportunity to "get out" of your own state of mind - be it briefly - instead of enhancing it.

Q

Quote from: DavidRoss on June 21, 2009, 06:41:39 AM
Bjorn--the absence of Bach's name from your list suggests the obvious "next place to go."  Not knowing Bach in music is like not knowing Newton in physics.  I suggest hastening to listen slowly and reflectively to his Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin, his Suites for solo cello, solo keyboard music starting with the Goldberg Variations, then to ensemble music like the beloved violin concertos and the Brandenburgs, and then to the cantatas and great choral works like the SMP.

Bjorn?  ???

My list of composers in the first post was just a list of my more recent listening.

I have listened to, and enjoyed, Bach in the past, especially the Goldberg Variations and the Cello Suites.

Quote from: Que on June 21, 2009, 06:44:15 AM
Well, as you might have guessed I was talking from experience. Baroque music and Early music do connect us to not only a different aesthetic world but also to different emotions - assuming the listener is able to connect to what is beyond the pleasent and enjoyable surface. I found music by, for instance Bach, soothing during my own experience, it's sometimes called "balm for the soul" for a reason!  :) Visiting a Mahler concert is basically paying to feel utterly depressed for almost two hours, which is an invigorating experience for someone with a happy state of mind, but not advisable in other circumstances because it will extrapolate, and deepen anxieties during listening. I didn't listen to Mahler for years - came all much too close...

I don't find Mahler in the least bit depressing actually.

Indeed, I usually find his most depressing and chaotic music to be cathartic, enabling me to purge my negative emotions. I find a connection in some of the ideas and sensations I experience when listening to the music, which I find strangely uplifting even when it is at its darkness point. Sometimes it can be extremely satisfying because the music says more than I can ever say in words, which part of the horror of my blackness.

Conversely, I actually find that music by Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart - to name a few from your list - to be best to listen to when I am feeling 'high' emotionally. They reflect the way that I feel and lift my spirits even more.

That's not to say that you might be right. Perhaps I will try listening to some Bach for a change this evening and see how I get on.

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 21, 2009, 06:39:16 AM
Why's that ChamberNut?

D.

Baroque and Classical Era music tends to be sunnier, more cheerful music than Romantic Era music.  Certainly not always and in all cases, but more often than not.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 21, 2009, 07:10:13 AM
I don't find Mahler in the least bit depressing actually.

I dare say that Mahler himself might have been surprised.

Of course Mahler has his uplifting moments as well, but even those are defined by the underlying tragedy. To me Mahler comes accross as highly intelligent, sophisticated, hyper sensitive and... depressed. I'm not fooled by his brief moments of extreme exaltation - they are in effect rather a confirmation.

Q

Quote from: Que on June 21, 2009, 08:43:04 AM
I dare say that Mahler himself might have been surprised.

Of course Mahler has his uplifting moments as well, but even those are defined by the underlying tragedy. To me Mahler comes accross as highly intelligent, sophisticated, hyper sensitive and... depressed. I'm not fooled by his brief moments of extreme exaltation - they are in effect rather a confirmation.

And to me Mahler is essentially uplifting, drenched in warm appreciation of and even awe at the soul's tightrope dance between nature's sensuous beauty and humankind's baffling insanity.  "Proof," I suppose, that though music may be a language, it is a language of Babel, speaking differently to each depending upon his proclivity to hear.

Quote from: DavidRoss on June 21, 2009, 12:57:13 PM
And to me Mahler is essentially uplifting, drenched in warm appreciation of and even awe at the soul's tightrope dance between nature's sensuous beauty and humankind's baffling insanity.  "Proof," I suppose, that though music may be a language, it is a language of Babel, speaking differently to each depending upon his proclivity to hear.

The fascination of music! :)

Q

Aaron Copland: Symphony No 3, William Walton Symphony No 1 are must hear works too.

My Vaughan Williams order arrived this morning. I am currently listening to Symphony No. 4, picked at random from the set I have bought.

Can anyone recommend any good biographical and/or critical literature to go alongside my listening?

I actually think I'm going to copy Grazioso and spend some time going through the Symphony genre. I like that this will add a structure to my listening but also send me off in new directions too.

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 03:29:42 AM
My Vaughan Williams order arrived this morning. I am currently listening to Symphony No. 4, picked at random from the set I have bought.

Can anyone recommend any good biographical and/or critical literature to go alongside my listening?

I actually think I'm going to copy Grazioso and spend some time going through the Symphony genre. I like that this will add a structure to my listening but also send me off in new directions too.

D.

Have fun! To recommend just a few symphonists off the beaten path: Atterberg, Boccherini, Bax, Holmboe, Korngold, Lilburn, Madetoja, Martinu, Mathias, Norgard, Onslow, Pettersson, Ries, Rubbra...

These 25-CD symphony sets from Naxos/Arkivmusic are more than worth while, btw:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/146445b.jpg)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/146442b.jpg)

I was tempted to recommend Martinů at the start of the thread, but I didn't want to risk going too obscure. But I will happilly second him now that he has been mentioned here!

Quote from: Lethe on June 23, 2009, 05:20:58 AM
I was tempted to recommend Martinů at the start of the thread, but I didn't want to risk going too obscure. But I will happilly second him now that he has been mentioned here!

He creates a unique, highly distinctive sound from the orchestra, and his 6th, Fantaisies Symphoniques, has one of those arresting openings that will just stop you dead in your tracks.

Guess it's time for me to give those Martinů symphonies another try.  The 6th, you say?

Thanks Grazioso,

Quote from: Grazioso on June 23, 2009, 05:09:24 AMThese 25-CD symphony sets from Naxos/Arkivmusic are more than worth while, btw:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/146445b.jpg)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/146442b.jpg)

They look like really interesting sets. I can't seem to find them anywhere to buy from UK sites though.

I've checked the Naxos website and used their catalogue search and nothing is coming up.  ???

D.

Quote from: DavidRoss on June 23, 2009, 05:59:02 AM
Guess it's time for me to give those Martinů symphonies another try.  The 6th, you say?

If the 6th doesn't grab you--it is an unusually loosely structured piece for this composer--try the 3rd (gripping, one of this composer's darkest works), or the 4th (joyous, like a 20th century Dvorak).

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 03:29:42 AM
My Vaughan Williams order arrived this morning. I am currently listening to Symphony No. 4, picked at random from the set I have bought.

Can anyone recommend any good biographical and/or critical literature to go alongside my listening?

Hope you enjoy it. Symphony 6 is my favourite. This book is a good, inexpensive, introduction to Vaughan Williams.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Illustrated-Lives-Composers/dp/0711965269/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245774712&sr=1-4

Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2009, 08:31:00 AM
Hope you enjoy it. Symphony 6 is my favourite. This book is a good, inexpensive, introduction to Vaughan Williams.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Illustrated-Lives-Composers/dp/0711965269/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245774712&sr=1-4

Vandermolen, I absolute ADORE the Illustrated Lives of the Great Composers series.  They are short, simple and have lots of photos. Terrific reading for the less "musically educated" minds.  :)  I've read Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Mahler and Wagner's, all from the public library.

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 23, 2009, 09:17:08 AM
Vandermolen, I absolute ADORE the Illustrated Lives of the Great Composers series.  They are short, simple and have lots of photos. Terrific reading for the less "musically educated" minds.  :)  I've read Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Mahler and Wagner's, all from the public library.

ChamberNut, me too. I have the ones on Elgar, Sibelius, Bliss, VW, Holst and Rachmaninov. They are great introductions to these composers and brilliantly illustrated, well written and featuring discographies and recommendations for further reading. I don't think that they are in print anymore which is a pity.

Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2009, 09:24:06 AM
ChamberNut, me too. I have the ones on Elgar, Sibelius, Bliss, VW, Holst and Rachmaninov. They are great introductions to these composers and brilliantly illustrated, well written and featuring discographies and recommendations for further reading. I don't think that they are in print anymore which is a pity.

Like I said, all of the ones I've read in the past have been very interesting reads, but probably the most interesting of the bunch so far has been the Shostakovich one.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 19, 2009, 07:45:29 AM
The period of history which particularly excites me is the period around the fin de siècle and the early 20th Century. I am fascinated by the kinds of questions that were being asked both intellectually and artistically during this period (the kind of adumbration of modernism to come

I'm going to be somewhat predictable in the first instance and - noting that you've made a start on Vaughan Williams who is basically on one side of the divide that you mention - suggest a bit of Elgar, who is, in spirit at least, on the other side. There you have an essentially nineteenth century composer (Elgar) confronted by the run up to the Great War, to compare with RVW a generation later. Elgar's The Spirit of England (a woefully neglected masterpiece) gives one (deeply moving) perspective on the tragedy of WW1; RVW's 3rd symphony gives a very different (and equally moving) response to it. The Elgar/Vaughan Williams pairing drops right into your period of interest and, given your wish to have a kind of theme to get your teeth into, could be what you're looking for. (If you find you hate the RVW you're listening to, of course, then maybe not.)

Based on your original list, the 3 missing names that immediately leap to mind for me are Bach, Brahms, and (based on what else you like) Bruckner. 

For a start, I'd suggest:

Bach - Well-Tempered Clavier or cello suites (or the violin concerti if you prefer orchestral)
Brahms -- Piano Concerto #1, 1st or 4th symphonies
Bruckner -- 4th, 7th, 8th, or 9th symphonies

If you like the Bach, try some Vivaldi or Handel next.  If you like the Brahms, try some Dvorak or Tchaikovsky.  If you like the Bruckner, buy more Bruckner.  :)

Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2009, 09:24:06 AM
ChamberNut, me too. I have the ones on Elgar, Sibelius, Bliss, VW, Holst and Rachmaninov. They are great introductions to these composers and brilliantly illustrated, well written and featuring discographies and recommendations for further reading. I don't think that they are in print anymore which is a pity.

Based on what you have said, and also on ChamberNut's recommendation, I have purchased a few of the books in this collection. I found the Vaughan Williams one and also purchased the Mahler and Stravinsky editions as they were at a very good price. Happy reading.  :)

Quote from: Elgarian on June 23, 2009, 11:11:16 AM
I'm going to be somewhat predictable in the first instance and - noting that you've made a start on Vaughan Williams who is basically on one side of the divide that you mention - suggest a bit of Elgar, who is, in spirit at least, on the other side. There you have an essentially nineteenth century composer (Elgar) confronted by the run up to the Great War, to compare with RVW a generation later. Elgar's The Spirit of England (a woefully neglected masterpiece) gives one (deeply moving) perspective on the tragedy of WW1; RVW's 3rd symphony gives a very different (and equally moving) response to it. The Elgar/Vaughan Williams pairing drops right into your period of interest and, given your wish to have a kind of theme to get your teeth into, could be what you're looking for. (If you find you hate the RVW you're listening to, of course, then maybe not.)

I'm pleased to say that I'm enjoying the RVW so far. I've spinned a few discs from my new set this evening.

I'm already quite well acquainted with Elgar. I know his Symphony No.1 well and I especially enjoy the Cello Concerto. I don't know the piece that you mention though, so I will be sure to find it and listen to it sometime.

I'm actually very interested in exploring more English composers. I have come to realise how much I have neglected music from my own country. Perhaps this is an avenue to explore, perhaps as I primarily make discoveries within the symphony genre.

Quote from: jwinter on June 23, 2009, 11:59:20 AM
Based on your original list, the 3 missing names that immediately leap to mind for me are Bach, Brahms, and (based on what else you like) Bruckner.  

For a start, I'd suggest:

Bach - Well-Tempered Clavier or cello suites (or the violin concerti if you prefer orchestral)
Brahms -- Piano Concerto #1, 1st or 4th symphonies
Bruckner -- 4th, 7th, 8th, or 9th symphonies

If you like the Bach, try some Vivaldi or Handel next.  If you like the Brahms, try some Dvorak or Tchaikovsky.  If you like the Bruckner, buy more Bruckner.  :)

Hello jwinter , thank you for your post. My original list was really just a list of what I have been listening to lately. I am acquainted with Bach and Brahms, and most of the pieces of theirs that you recommend; not so with Bruckner however. If I am to explore the symphony then I realise that this must change!  ;D

I know most of Handel's famous pieces but I'm do not know Vivaldi very well. I have listened to quite a lot of Dvorak (the Cello concerto is a favourite) but do not know Tchaikovsky well enough. So much still for me to explore!  :)

Thank you for all replies.

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 12:25:50 PM
I don't know the piece that you mention though, so I will be sure to find it and listen to it sometime.

If you do, then this, by a million miles, is the version to get, and it need cost you very little.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1245789797&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Coronation-Ode-Spirit-England/dp/B000000A9N/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1245789797&sr=1-2)

(Ignore the Coronation Ode in the first instance.)

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 12:25:50 PM
I'm actually very interested in exploring more English composers. I have come to realise how much I have neglected music from my own country. Perhaps this is an avenue to explore, perhaps as I primarily make discoveries within the symphony genre.

Particularly if you include Britain as a whole, then there's much to choose from: besides the obvious Elgar and RVW symphonies, there's Alwyn, Arnell, Arnold, Bantock, Bax, Bliss, Frankel, Mathias, Rawsthorne, Rubbra, Simpson, Walton, and many others. Look to labels like Hyperion, Chandos, Naxos, and Lyrita for many interesting avenues of exploration.

As for those Naxos sets, I tried Amazon.co.uk to no avail, though Amazon.de sells the British set but is out of stock atm. Search by B000JLSTP8.

Here, fwiw, is the direct link from Arkiv in the US:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=734

Quote from: Grazioso on June 24, 2009, 04:11:06 AM
As for those Naxos sets, I tried Amazon.co.uk to no avail, though Amazon.de sells the British set but is out of stock atm. Search by B000JLSTP8.

Here, fwiw, is the direct link from Arkiv in the US:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=734

Keep an eye on naxosdirect.ca. You might be able to get a box for two for next to nothing (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10240.0.html). ;)

Quote from: Grazioso on June 24, 2009, 04:11:06 AM
Particularly if you include Britain as a whole, then there's much to choose from: besides the obvious Elgar and RVW symphonies, there's Alwyn, Arnell, Arnold, Bantock, Bax, Bliss, Frankel, Mathias, Rawsthorne, Rubbra, Simpson, Walton, and many others. Look to labels like Hyperion, Chandos, Naxos, and Lyrita for many interesting avenues of exploration.

As for those Naxos sets, I tried Amazon.co.uk to no avail, though Amazon.de sells the British set but is out of stock atm. Search by B000JLSTP8.

Here, fwiw, is the direct link from Arkiv in the US:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/listPage.jsp?list_id=734

I tried that catalogue number on the Naxos website and didn't get any returns at all.  ???

Anyway, I see it on Amazon.com and I think I can buy it there and ship it to UK. I'm very tempted to do so as it does look like it would provide me with ample listening for some time to come. Perhaps an early birthday present from my Mrs Daedalus. ;D

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 12:25:50 PM
but do not know Tchaikovsky well enough.

Try the Brilliant Classics Tchaikovsky's symphonies set with Philadelphia/New Philharmonia Orchestras with Riccardo Muti conducting.  It was recommended to me and I just LOVE it!

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 12:25:50 PM
Based on what you have said, and also on ChamberNut's recommendation, I have purchased a few of the books in this collection. I found the Vaughan Williams one and also purchased the Mahler and Stravinsky editions as they were at a very good price. Happy reading.  :)

I'm pleased to say that I'm enjoying the RVW so far. I've spinned a few discs from my new set this evening.

I'm already quite well acquainted with Elgar. I know his Symphony No.1 well and I especially enjoy the Cello Concerto. I don't know the piece that you mention though, so I will be sure to find it and listen to it sometime.

I'm actually very interested in exploring more English composers. I have come to realise how much I have neglected music from my own country. Perhaps this is an avenue to explore, perhaps as I primarily make discoveries within the symphony genre.

Hello jwinter , thank you for your post. My original list was really just a list of what I have been listening to lately. I am acquainted with Bach and Brahms, and most of the pieces of theirs that you recommend; not so with Bruckner however. If I am to explore the symphony then I realise that this must change!  ;D

I know most of Handel's famous pieces but I'm do not know Vivaldi very well. I have listened to quite a lot of Dvorak (the Cello concerto is a favourite) but do not know Tchaikovsky well enough. So much still for me to explore!  :)

Thank you for all replies.

D.

You should also like Moeran's Symphony in G minor - one of my all time favourite works.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 24, 2009, 08:31:11 AM
I tried that catalogue number on the Naxos website and didn't get any returns at all.  ???

Anyway, I see it on Amazon.com and I think I can buy it there and ship it to UK. I'm very tempted to do so as it does look like it would provide me with ample listening for some time to come. Perhaps an early birthday present from my Mrs Daedalus. ;D

D.

Sorry I wasn't clear: that catalogue number is for the various Amazon sites alone. You can buy from the different international Amazon sites and have them ship to other countries.

That English Symphonies set includes excellent Bax and RVW cycles, among other delights.

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 24, 2009, 09:08:22 AM
Try the Brilliant Classics Tchaikovsky's symphonies set with Philadelphia/New Philharmonia Orchestras with Riccardo Muti conducting.  It was recommended to me and I just LOVE it!

Second that.  Muti is one of the greatest Tchaikovsky conductors, even better than some Russians.  He does fine with Stravinsky too, although his first Rite of Spring with the Philadelphia Orchestra is a little ragged.

Quote from: jochanaan on June 25, 2009, 07:56:22 AM
Muti is one of the greatest Tchaikovsky conductors, even better than some Russians. 

Which just goes to show you that a conductor, orchestra, chamber ensemble, soloist et al need not be of the same nationality as the composer to "get it right".

Daedalus, which Vaughan Williams set did you buy? I recommend either Previn or Handley. Either way, his oeuvre offers a great symphonic "journey", from Edwardian splendour (but avoid the Sea Symphony if you're not a choral fan), through the more modern(ish) "war symphonies" (4-6), and then the last, slightly strange, very individual works. Each symphony is different, each is defiantly melodic, and deep enough to stand much relistening.

You mentioned you know Brahms, but do you know his early Serenades? They're often overlooked, but, together with his piano concertos, they constitute an essential part of his symphonic output (Mackerras on Telarc is ideal).

Sibelius! For some reason he's often an afterthought, but most here would agree that he is essential - especially if, as you say, the Late Romantic symphony is your thing! Most complete sets are at least acceptable; the Berglund/EMI box is great value.

Finally, Rachmaninov doesn't get a lot of respect, but if you pick up the 3 disc set conducted by Ashkenazy (on Decca/London), you won't regret it, as he presents these very Russian, very Romantic symphonies in the best possible light, with exciting performances and great sound.

Quote from: eyeresist on June 25, 2009, 06:24:01 PM
Daedalus, which Vaughan Williams set did you buy? I recommend either Previn or Handley. Either way, his oeuvre offers a great symphonic "journey", from Edwardian splendour (but avoid the Sea Symphony if you're not a choral fan), through the more modern(ish) "war symphonies" (4-6), and then the last, slightly strange, very individual works. Each symphony is different, each is defiantly melodic, and deep enough to stand much relistening.

You mentioned you know Brahms, but do you know his early Serenades? They're often overlooked, but, together with his piano concertos, they constitute an essential part of his symphonic output (Mackerras on Telarc is ideal).

Sibelius! For some reason he's often an afterthought, but most here would agree that he is essential - especially if, as you say, the Late Romantic symphony is your thing! Most complete sets are at least acceptable; the Berglund/EMI box is great value.

Finally, Rachmaninov doesn't get a lot of respect, but if you pick up the 3 disc set conducted by Ashkenazy (on Decca/London), you won't regret it, as he presents these very Russian, very Romantic symphonies in the best possible light, with exciting performances and great sound.

I heartily second all of these recommendations, especially the first three.

Quote from: eyeresist on June 25, 2009, 06:24:01 PM
Daedalus, which Vaughan Williams set did you buy? I recommend either Previn or Handley.

I got the Handley set after checking the reviews (and seeing the price!)

QuoteEither way, his oeuvre offers a great symphonic "journey", from Edwardian splendour (but avoid the Sea Symphony if you're not a choral fan), through the more modern(ish) "war symphonies" (4-6), and then the last, slightly strange, very individual works. Each symphony is different, each is defiantly melodic, and deep enough to stand much relistening.

I started with no.4. Would it perhaps be better to start at the beginning and work my way through?

QuoteYou mentioned you know Brahms, but do you know his early Serenades? They're often overlooked, but, together with his piano concertos, they constitute an essential part of his symphonic output (Mackerras on Telarc is ideal).

No, I don't know them. Will add them to my list and check them out soon.

QuoteSibelius! For some reason he's often an afterthought, but most here would agree that he is essential - especially if, as you say, the Late Romantic symphony is your thing! Most complete sets are at least acceptable; the Berglund/EMI box is great value.

I have a complete Sibelius set. It was cheaper to buy the complete set than to buy one or two of the symphonies! So I know quite a few of the symphonies, no.5 being a favourite and I also really like the Violin Concerto.

QuoteFinally, Rachmaninov doesn't get a lot of respect, but if you pick up the 3 disc set conducted by Ashkenazy (on Decca/London), you won't regret it, as he presents these very Russian, very Romantic symphonies in the best possible light, with exciting performances and great sound.

I only really know Rachmaninov's piano works. I did listen to his Symphony no.1 once but it didn't leave a lasting impression and I only had it on a week's loan from the library.

Thanks for the suggestions.

D.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 26, 2009, 01:37:41 AM
...I did listen to his Symphony no.1 once but it didn't leave a lasting impression and I only had it on a week's loan from the library.

Rach 1 is as notable for its story as for its music.  This was the work that nearly ended Rachmaninoff's composing career; apparently the first performance was so bad that its depressive composer fell into despair, only recovering his confidence three years later via hypnosis sessions that resulted in the Second Piano Concerto.  Until after Rachmaninoff's death it was thought that he had destroyed all copies, but (I believe in the 1940s) a set of orchestral parts was discovered in the then Soviet Union.  Try the 1970s Previn/LSO recording; Previn rightly reads it as a tragic masterpiece.

My favorite of the Rachmaninoff symphonies is #3; much more tightly constructed than his first two, and more intense than the popular Second.  Also, do not neglect his Symphonic Dances. :D

Quote from: Daedalus on June 26, 2009, 01:37:41 AM
I only really know Rachmaninov's piano works. I did listen to his Symphony no.1 once but it didn't leave a lasting impression and I only had it on a week's loan from the library.

The symphonies don't compare favorably with his best orchestral pieces, the PC's, the Symphonic Dances Jo recommends, and The Isle of the Dead.  Before digging into them I'd suggest that the symphonies of Prokofiev, Bax, Bruckner, and Nielsen are likely to prove more rewarding among those recommended thus far.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 19, 2009, 07:45:29 AM
Hello all,

I would like to hear your opinions regarding where I should go next on my classical music adventure.

My listening during the last year has been largely undirected and random. I've just been picking up pieces here and there, listening to lots of different music, from Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Sibelius, Debussy, Stravinsky, Schoenberg and Shostakovich. As this list suggests, I am still very much at the beginning of my classical music adventure.

While I have enjoyed jumping between composers and genres, as well as catching up with the more 'mainstream' and famous works that were missing from my listening CV, I have missed having a direction or pattern to my musical journey.

A couple of years ago, I thoroughly enjoyed working my way through the Mahler symphonies, giving each one many repeated listens until I was ready to 'move on' to the next. I read Mahler biographies and letters alongside his music as well as non-technical, abstract writing about his music. This kind of 'study' (I use inverted commas because I was studying on a purely aesthetic, abstract and historical/biographical level as opposed to musical study) was extremely rewarding. I felt as though I came to know (or perhaps apprehend is a more suitable word) a little something about Mahler the man and Mahler the artist while journeying through his symphonies. I also found myself enjoying reading about the history and the wider cultural context.

What I am trying to say (yes, this rambling post does have a point  :P) is that I very much enjoyed becoming absorbed in one composer's works like this and I am looking for a similar experience in my listening again. I haven't done this with any composer other than Mahler. So the question, then, is where to go next? I was hoping for more enlightened and knowledgeable people to make some recommendations.  ;D

The period of history which particularly excites me is the period around the fin de siècle and the early 20th Century. I am fascinated by the kinds of questions that were being asked both intellectually and artistically during this period (the kind of adumbration of modernism to come), especially in literature which is my main passion in life. Unfortunately, I am not as knowledgeable in music as I am in literature, so I hope that some of you will be able to make some interesting recommendations about where to go next.

Thanks in advance to anyone who answers my cry for help,
D.

P.S. Forgot to add that any recommendations of pieces to start with and reading to go alongside the listening would also be welcomed.

Are you famliar with Vitizslav Novak? ("The Eternal Longing"; "The Storm"); or perhaps Joseph Suk (Asrael Symphony)? Just two of the many early 20th century composers.  Other posters, I'm sure, have informed you on the many  excellent composers and works derivative of this time period.

If you like like pre-WWII music, try Webern and Bartok.  They triumph over post-Wagnerian and neoromantic wubba wubba, and easily surpass most of their contemporaries for deep, moving music free of romantic excess. :)

  How  about  the  music  of  Hector  Berlioz ?  He's  one  of  the  greatest  of  French  composers,  and  one  of  a  kind.
His  music  is  passionate,  fantastically  colorful  and  wildly  imaginative.
Try  the  Symphonie  Fantastique,  Harold in  italy,  the  Requiem,  Romeo&Juliette, the  Te  Deum,  The  Damnation  of  Faust,  The  Childhood  of  Christ, and  the  shorter  orchestral  overtures  such as  Roman Carnival,
The  Corsaire etc.  You  can't  go  wrong  with  the  recordings  by  Sir  Colin  Davis,  or  Charles  Munch.
  Dvorak  is  also  a  wonderful  composer,  and  there's  so  much  more  to  his  music  than  the  familiar  New  World,  7th  and  8th  symphonies ,the  Slavonic  Dances  and  the  Cello  concerto.  Music  doesn't  get  more  melodious  than  Dvorak,  and  you  should  also  try  his  first  six  symphonies,  the  magnificent  and  sadly  neglected  Requiem, the  symphonic  poems  based  on  Czech  fairy  tales, the  Symphonic  variations for  orchestra,  the  violin  concerto,  the  one  for  piano, the  oratorio  The  Spectre's Bride, the  four  Slavonic  Rhapsodies(not to  be  confused  with  the  Slav9onic  Dances), and  other  orchestral  works,  plus  his  string  quartets  and  other  chamber  music.  It's  hard  to find  a  dud  among  Dvorak's  works! 
   Smetana's  Ma  Vlast (My  Fatherland)  from  which  the  famous  Moldau  comes, is  a  magnificent  cycle  of  six  tone  poems  based  on  Czech  history, folklore  and  geography. 
  Leos  Janacek  is  another  great  Czech  composer,  and  a highly  original  and  quirky  one.  Try  his  Sinfonietta,  the  symphonic  poem  Taras  Bulba,based  on  the  Gogol  story,  the  thrilling  Glagolitic  Mass,  a  setting  of  the  Mass in  Church  Slavonic  rather  than  Latin, his  two  string  quartets, for  starters,  and  the orchestral  suites  to  his  operas.
  Albert  Roussel  was  a  contemporary  of  Ravel  and  Debussy,  but  his  music  is  vastly  different  from  theirs,  and  sadly  neglected.  Try  his  four  symphonies, the  music  to  the  ballets  Bacchus&Ariane,  and  the  Spider's  Feast for  starters.
Paul  Dukas  wrote  more  than  the  famous  Sorceror's  Apprentice,  but  unfortunately  hje  destroyed  much  of  his  music  out  of  dissatisfaction  with  it. But  theymphony  in  C,  his  only  one,  is  splendid.
  If  you  enjoy  the  music  of  Borodin  and  Rimsky-Korsakov,  you  will  also  find  the  music  of  Mily  Balakirev  very  appealing. Try  his  sadly  neglected  symphony  no  1  in C.
  These are just  a  few  randon  recommendations.

There are some great recommendations here! Early on someone suggested getting into Prokofiev and I would wholeheartedly agree. There is so much variation in musical genre and style; as introductions try symphonies 5 & 6, ballet Romeo & Juliet and violin concerto no.1. Then listen to 'Alexander Nevsky' and the 'Scythian Suite'.
For Rachmaninov orchestral music, I would definitely recommend the 'Symphonic Dances' over any of the symphonies.
While we are considering Soviet music, try Khachaturians Piano Concerto - it used to be quite popular but has fallen from favour, as has almost all Khachaturian lately.
Now that youhave heard some Vaughan Williams, do try some Walton especially Symphony No.1 and the oratorio 'Belshazzars Feast'. Also, while on the English music theme, try some Malcolm Arnold - I'd recommend symphony No.5 as a great starting point along with the Concerto for 2 Pianos (3 hands), the Tam-o-Shanter overture and English Dances. Of course there is also Holst's 'The Planets' - popular, but nonetheless superb.
I absolutely agree with 'Superhorn' who suggests Janacek's 'Sinfonietta' - a wonderful piece, highly recommended. Others have mentioned Ravel, and I would suggest that you bypass the famous 'Bolero' and go instead for the superb 'La Valse', 'Daphnis et Chloe' and the Piano Concerto in G.
Good luck in your venture - there is so much wonderful music out there.

Quote from: Daedalus on June 23, 2009, 03:29:42 AM
My Vaughan Williams order arrived this morning. I am currently listening to Symphony No. 4, picked at random from the set I have bought.

Can anyone recommend any good biographical and/or critical literature to go alongside my listening?


D.

     (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PE7V0VYCL._SS500_.jpg)

     This may be what you're looking for. It's too technical for me but you might appreciate it.