There seem to be alot of world class musicians from Japan as European and American orchestras are full of them nowadays.
Why do they move out of the country to work?
I have been wondering why Japan doesn't have a world class orchestra with all the superb musicians coming from that country.
The Tokyo Symphony is a decent orchestra, but not in the same league as the best European and American orchestras.
Saito Kinen Orchestra -
aren't these guys a pretty hot playing group?
i have some japan philharmonic lps that sound dang good.
dj
It's one of those Western things Japan just doesn't seem to be able to get the hang of.
The Japanese have no problem "getting the hang of" western classical music. If anything, western classical music is bigger in Japan than in, say, USA. But still, it is considered a "western" thing, in that "making it" means "making it" in the west, especially in Europe. I am not sure if this makes a good illustration but, some of the best sumo wrestlers in the world are from Mongolia, Hawaii, etc. But even if a market can be developed and the money is comparable, making it in sumo still means making it in Japan, period.
BTW, the same thing you noticed about Japan holds true in Korea and China as well. There must be close to a million people in Beijing who plays the piano or who are learning it. You can say that there are probably more pianists and piano music consumers in China than anywhere else. But none of them can hold a sellout concert unless they have made it in the west and came back for a concert or recital. Most orchestral muscians dream of going to the west and play there, even though most of them actually make more money here.
I don't think it is the fault of the musicians - they can pull off some really spectacular music. I think it is more to do with a) a conservative concert-going crowd, and b) conductors playing to those expectations (as they probably should). It might cause a little bit of a drab atmosphere, which might explain the occasional lack of spark...
While not a symphony orchestra, the Bach Collegium Japan is one of the greatest ensembles in the world.
Quote from: CRCulver on June 24, 2009, 04:16:48 AM
While not a symphony orchestra, the Bach Collegium Japan is one of the greatest ensembles in the world.
Japan has produced some musicians who are next to none when it comes to playing western period instruments. It used to be the case that BCJ needed to use contract woodwind and brass players from Europe, but now it seems to me that they can now cover all bases with local musicians.
NHK Symphony
Osaka Philharmonic
Saito Kinen Orchestra
Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra
and the excellent wind ensemble Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra
Need I say more?
Indeed Japan has some world-class symphony orchestra, perhaps uniquely so in East Asia.
It's hard to judge Japanese ensembles given we hear so little from them.
Did you know there is a Japanese Ring cycle conducted by Asahina?
(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/400/27/5/0/927.jpg) (http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/2750927)
While China is busy popping out star after star Japan has produced some genuinely gifted musicians through out the years.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 24, 2009, 07:23:57 PM
While China is busy popping out star after star Japan has produced some genuinely gifted musicians through out the years.
Well, even with LangLang and Yundi, not really that many "stars", compared to all the Japanese names I can think of. And hardly any of them true musicians. Japan has indeed been exceptional.
Quote from: imperfection on June 24, 2009, 06:10:14 PM
NHK Symphony
Osaka Philharmonic
Saito Kinen Orchestra
Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra
and the excellent wind ensemble Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra
Need I say more?
Yes, that's a good list :)
And it is worth reflecting that many of these orchestras are able to attract fine conductors-both Japanese and from abroad- as their principal conductors:
NHK Symphony Orchestra:recently Charles Dutoit and then Vladimir Ashkenazy
Osaka Philharmonic Orchestra: Eiji Oue
Saito Kinen Orchestra-Seiji Ozawa
Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra: Stanislaw Skrowaczewski(to be replaced next year by Sylvain Cambreling)
The problem is not that Japan has not produced a world class symphony orchestra as there clearly are world class orchestras in Japan. The problem is that the orchestras have not toured extensively in the West, and worse, their recordings are not widely distributed, and are extremely expensive here.
Quote from: eyeresist on June 24, 2009, 07:17:08 PM
Did you know there is a Japanese Ring cycle conducted by Asahina?
Dare I ask how much it costs? :o I'd definitely buy it if I had any extra spending money. I've only heard an Asahina recording once, Bruckner 4 with the Osaka Phil, but that once was memorable--both the playing and the conducting were world class.
Quote from: jochanaan on June 25, 2009, 07:35:12 AM
Dare I ask how much it costs? :o I'd definitely buy it if I had any extra spending money. I've only heard an Asahina recording once, Bruckner 4 with the Osaka Phil, but that once was memorable--both the playing and the conducting were world class.
lots and lots of dollars. :(
Anyone listen to this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt-8kofyQhc
It's the NHK Symphony Orchestra. Sounds nice, doesn't it? 8)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 24, 2009, 07:23:57 PM
While China is busy popping out star after star Japan has produced some genuinely gifted musicians through out the years.
The size of the population does not always guarantee success in ANY fields. Surely 1.3B+ people are a lot of people. Will China ever beat Brazil in soccer or the US in basketball? Highly unlikely. With 10% of China's population, Japan is far more accomplished in science and classical music than China ...
Quote from: Coopmv on June 25, 2009, 05:31:43 PM
With 10% of China's population, Japan is far more accomplished in science and classical music than China ...
That's just another reason to love Japan!
I can't think of any really, really famous Japanese composer after Takemitsu, though. I don't know if there ever will be one, because many of the composers are 20th century avant-garde by-products, so the majority of the audience will find it hard to connect to their music, even if they are geniuses. Hopefully, that will change.
This may be hard to explain, but... I detect some kind of relationship between Japan and late 19th century Germany- I don't know if there really is a similarity or not, but I've had some observations.
Think- during the 19th century, there was the negative philosophy of Schopenhauer. Then there was Wagner, who was influenced by it, and Mahler, who wrote in the spirit of it (and I could imagine his brother doing the same if he hadn't commit suicide).
Then, I read (very little) Japanese literature, which is pretty dark, and it is written by writers who were completely miserable and commit suicide, after trying several time and going in and out of wondering whether it was even worth it to kill themselves. I've also watched the anime Welcome to the NHK, which is literally the most depressing show I've watched in my life (but enjoyingly, cleansingly depressing in a way that only listening to Mahler/Wagner or reading Schopenhauer can do for me). I've never seen so many suicide attempts, especially given that they are the main characters trying it. The whole message and struggle was a type of thought that I could hardly imagine in an American or British show, for example.
I'm just wondering if this type of thought is a by-product of what happens when a society gets many smart people, and becomes more advanced. Although Japan doesn't exactly have the highest suicide rate (they did make up the term hikikomori, which is pretty significant), it seems that the lowest suicide rates are among countries that are the least advanced. Just random wondering thoughts...
Quote from: jochanaan on June 25, 2009, 07:35:12 AM
Dare I ask how much it costs?
Click the picture to find out! (The page has an English-language option)
It's ¥8,000, which is a bit under US$80.
Quote from: Greg on June 25, 2009, 06:37:05 PM
it seems that the lowest suicide rates are among countries that are the least advanced. Just random wondering thoughts...
Japanese suicide rate has always been high, for hundreds of years since way before the country is economically or otherwise advanced.
Quote from: springrite on June 25, 2009, 07:42:20 PM
Japanese suicide rate has always been high, for hundreds of years since way before the country is economically or otherwise advanced.
Well, true, but I was looking at this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_rates_by_country
9th is still pretty high. It seems that the worst part is around Russia, though.
Quote from: springrite on June 24, 2009, 02:55:59 AM
The Japanese have no problem "getting the hang of" western classical music.
Nobody said they do. The thing is that it's not a part of the culture so much that there will be emphasis placed on new music, or exciting programs. Go to a record store and find one of those "best-of" classical CDs, and there's your classical music scene in Japan. The underground experimental stuff is there, though, it's the mainstream that needs help. I don't know if there's a problem with the musicians as much as there is with the programming and promoting.
Quote from: The Six on June 26, 2009, 12:24:24 AM
The thing is that it's not a part of the culture so much that there will be emphasis placed on new music, or exciting programs. Go to a record store and find one of those "best-of" classical CDs, and there's your classical music scene in Japan.
However, I have heard from people living there that Japan has some of the most fanatical record collectors and best-stocked record/CD stores of any country on earth. Also, many releases seem to be available in Japan that are not available in other countries. Is this accurate?
Quote from: The Six on June 26, 2009, 12:24:24 AM
Nobody said they do. The thing is that it's not a part of the culture so much that there will be emphasis placed on new music, or exciting programs. Go to a record store and find one of those "best-of" classical CDs, and there's your classical music scene in Japan. The underground experimental stuff is there, though, it's the mainstream that needs help. I don't know if there's a problem with the musicians as much as there is with the programming and promoting.
Have you been to a lot of different record stores? Any in Tokyo?
I'm just wondering, because where I live, the classical section is almost non-existent. About an hour from here, there's a section in a bookstore which is pretty impressive- tons of John Adams CDs, for example.
Quote from: eyeresist on June 25, 2009, 06:40:46 PM
Click the picture to find out! (The page has an English-language option)
It's ¥8,000, which is a bit under US$80.
Hmmm--Not as bad as I feared... *wheels spin in head* ;D How is the singing?
Quote from: Spitvalve on June 26, 2009, 12:33:17 AM
However, I have heard from people living there that Japan has some of the most fanatical record collectors and best-stocked record/CD stores of any country on earth. Also, many releases seem to be available in Japan that are not available in other countries. Is this accurate?
Well, I certainly didn't find any in my time there, but I wouldn't doubt they exist. I can vouch that there are many Japan-only releases for Western, not just classical, music.
QuoteHave you been to a lot of different record stores? Any in Tokyo?
I'm just wondering, because where I live, the classical section is almost non-existent. About an hour from here, there's a section in a bookstore which is pretty impressive- tons of John Adams CDs, for example.
I lived in Kyoto and couldn't find any decent stores, Osaka wasn't much better, but there might be something there. When I was in Tokyo I didn't notice any good record stores, did find some good restaurants though! There's an underground place in Harajuku about a 3 minute walk from the condom store that was awesome.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 27, 2009, 09:07:31 AM
wat
Stores dedicated to entirely to condoms are not some kind of novelty. When I was growing up in Philadelphia in the mid-1990s, we had two large such stores in the same street.
Quote from: The Six on June 27, 2009, 08:50:51 AM
Well, I certainly didn't find any in my time there, but I wouldn't doubt they exist. I can vouch that there are many Japan-only releases for Western, not just classical, music.
I lived in Kyoto and couldn't find any decent stores, Osaka wasn't much better, but there might be something there. When I was in Tokyo I didn't notice any good record stores, did find some good restaurants though! There's an underground place in Harajuku about a 3 minute walk from the condom store that was awesome.
Try
harder. It does not take an Einstein to find a superlative, let alone decent, CD store in the record capital of the world.
Settle down, chief. I was only there for two weeks, and wasn't even particularly looking for record stores.
Quote from: The Six on June 27, 2009, 03:04:23 PM
Settle down, chief. I was only there for two weeks, and wasn't even particularly looking for record stores.
Only two weeks? It took me 20 minutes after leaving the airport to notice the the biggest Tower Records and HMV stores in Akihabara. They are both so freaking huge you must have been near blind to have missed them. Then, after passing by both of them, I went looking for the best sushi in the world near Kaminarimon, and came across at least 7 more CD shops.
Quote from: imperfection on June 27, 2009, 08:03:52 PM
Only two weeks? It took me 20 minutes after leaving the airport to notice the the biggest Tower Records and HMV stores in Akihabara. They are both so freaking huge you must have been near blind to have missed them. Then, after passing by both of them, I went looking for the best sushi in the world near Kaminarimon, and came across at least 7 more CD shops.
Karajan CD's are still selling briskly in Japan. He is the God of classical music to the older generation Japanese and was a good friend of the late Sony founder Akio Morita ...
Lived there for 12 years and there are numerous record stores around Tokyo that would make you all drool.
Quote from: imperfection on June 27, 2009, 08:03:52 PM
Only two weeks? It took me 20 minutes after leaving the airport to notice the the biggest Tower Records and HMV stores in Akihabara. They are both so freaking huge you must have been near blind to have missed them. Then, after passing by both of them, I went looking for the best sushi in the world near Kaminarimon, and came across at least 7 more CD shops.
There is no Tower or HMV stores in Akihabara--Shibuya, yes, Akihabara no.
Quote from: jo jo starbuck on June 27, 2009, 11:27:32 PM
There is no Tower or HMV stores in Akihabara--Shibuya, yes, Akihabara no.
Trust me, there is. I was there last March. The HMV is near the Yodobashi Camera superstore.
Quote from: Coopmv on June 27, 2009, 08:09:47 PM
Karajan CD's are still selling briskly in Japan. He is the God of classical music to the older generation Japanese and was a good friend of the late Sony founder Akio Morita ...
Yeah, there are indeed quite a lot of HvK fans over there. In fact, there are more exclusive recordings of his concerts made in Japan than anywhere else in the world, and they are usually extremely expensive or just downright unavailable outside the country.
Quote from: imperfection on June 27, 2009, 08:03:52 PM
Only two weeks? It took me 20 minutes after leaving the airport to notice the the biggest Tower Records and HMV stores in Akihabara. They are both so freaking huge you must have been near blind to have missed them. Then, after passing by both of them, I went looking for the best sushi in the world near Kaminarimon, and came across at least 7 more CD shops.
I believe the Tower Records stores in Japan are not owned by the same management that filed for bankruptcy and went through liquidation in the US.
This is all good to hear. I might have to wikimapia this. ;)
The Yodobashi camera places are circled in red. Maybe they don't have the HMV labeled.
Quote from: imperfection on June 27, 2009, 08:03:52 PM
Only two weeks? It took me 20 minutes after leaving the airport to notice the the biggest Tower Records and HMV stores in Akihabara. They are both so freaking huge you must have been near blind to have missed them. Then, after passing by both of them, I went looking for the best sushi in the world near Kaminarimon, and came across at least 7 more CD shops.
Settle down, chief.
Quote from: imperfection on June 28, 2009, 01:21:18 AM
Trust me, there is. I was there last March. The HMV is near the Yodobashi Camera superstore.
Then you obviously were in the wrong ward:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/st/
Please, I know Tokyo and I was there last year as well.
What is near Yodobashi is Ishimaru. That is what you're talking about.
It does appear that I got the record stores mixed up. Still though, that doesn't disprove my claim that Tokyo is filled with good record stores.
Quote from: imperfection on June 28, 2009, 11:06:15 AM
It does appear that I got the record stores mixed up. Still though, that doesn't disprove my claim that Tokyo is filled with good record stores.
Nope, not all, and in fact the cd shops in Japan are filled to the brim with great stuff. Ochanomizu Ward, just one stop from Akihabara is my favorite place to go, with Disk Union's used shop. For years Disk Union was located in a 20x20 room where I would go on a Sunday and literally would have to move slowly and in close-quarters with all the other fanatics. Now they are in a decently-sized shop and I would suggest everyone put that store on their list of a place to go when in Japan.
To get there, go to Ochanomizu station and go out the west exit. Cross the busy intersection at a diagonal and walk up about 1/2 a block. It will be up the stairs on the second floor. They have cds, sacds, lps, and great service. They don't speak English, though.
Quote from: Greg on June 28, 2009, 04:59:57 AM
The Yodobashi camera places are circled in red. Maybe they don't have the HMV labeled.
Or the HvK? ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on June 29, 2009, 01:18:17 PM
Or the HvK? ;D
HvK is no joking matter in the Japanese classical music circle. More important, one of their own, Seiji Ozawa was HvK's protégé and in fact conducted the memorial concert. (http://www.amazon.com/Herbert-Von-Karajan-Memorial-Concert/dp/B001OBT3FM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1246321567&sr=1-2)
Quote from: jochanaan on June 26, 2009, 09:18:24 AM
Hmmm--Not as bad as I feared... *wheels spin in head* ;D How is the singing?
Don't know. Get a translation of the reviews.
Quote from: Coopmv on June 25, 2009, 05:31:43 PM
The size of the population does not always guarantee success in ANY fields. Surely 1.3B+ people are a lot of people. Will China ever beat Brazil in soccer or the US in basketball? Highly unlikely. With 10% of China's population, Japan is far more accomplished in science and classical music than China ...
China was the most advanced country on the planet for centuries. It's not really fair to put them down now because you don't like their pianists.
Lithuania beat the US in basketball once...
Not....world...class? ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9X2DPPbwgk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9X2DPPbwgk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbIJMDNGC6o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbIJMDNGC6o)
Sorry i don't share your view, perhaps i don't have a higher taste for things.
Howard
Exactly. The NHK Symphony isn't too bad...
Quote from: The Six on July 01, 2009, 10:35:30 PM
China was the most advanced country on the planet for centuries. It's not really fair to put them down now because you don't like their pianists.
I am aware of the Chinese cultural heritage. They have been around for a long time, as have been the Egyptian and Iraqi (they go back some 7000 years). There was no put-down here. China has never produced any composers that have such universal acceptance as Bach or Beethoven, period.
Quote from: Greg on July 03, 2009, 03:47:00 AM
Exactly. The NHK Symphony isn't too bad...
The NHK Symphony has to be the top symphony in Asia.
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 05:28:24 AM
The NHK Symphony has to be the top symphony in Asia.
Along with the Malaysian Philharmonic, though technically speaking the Malaysian Philharmonic is not Malaysian at all, but does that matter? It is a world class orchestra in a major Asian city.
Howard
Quote from: hautbois on July 03, 2009, 09:51:57 AM
Along with the Malaysian Philharmonic, though technically speaking the Malaysian Philharmonic is not Malaysian at all, but does that matter? It is a world class orchestra in a major Asian city.
Howard
Are members of the Malaysian Philharmonic mainly Europeans?
Kees Bakels is the Conductor Laureate at the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra after being Music Director there for 8 years. He is now 12 years with them.
Kees is a Dutch conductor whose work I've always admired very much. I think he has a lot to do with bringing that Orchestra up to the status of World Class.
There are many provincial orchestras in Japan. Not about Japanese orchestras, but I remember the Montreal Symphony Orchestra with Dutoit coming to my small city of Koriyama, Japan and my daughter and I going to see them. Many orchestras outside of Japan do come yearly on tour.
Quote from: jo jo starbuck on July 03, 2009, 11:53:19 AM
There are many provincial orchestras in Japan. Not about Japanese orchestras, but I remember the Montreal Symphony Orchestra with Dutoit coming to my small city of Koriyama, Japan and my daughter and I going to see them. Many orchestras outside of Japan do come yearly on tour.
In the good old days when Karajan embarked on a world tour with his BPO, multiple concerts were always given in Japan ...
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 10:00:28 AM
Are members of the Malaysian Philharmonic mainly Europeans?
Yupe. Europeans and Americans, and actually a substantial amount of Asians as well, just not Malaysian.
Howard
p.s. Kees Bakels is an amazing conductor, well at least from the work that i have witnessed of him with the MPO. Apparently he is very highly regarded in the performing circuit, even said to be one of the best living conductors today.
Quote from: hautbois on July 03, 2009, 06:50:09 PM
Yupe. Europeans and Americans, and actually a substantial amount of Asians as well, just not Malaysian.
Howard
p.s. Kees Bakels is an amazing conductor, well at least from the work that i have witnesses of him with the MPO. Apparently he is very highly regarded in the performing circuit, even said to be .
Yes Howard, I for one would like to hear him guest recording with some of the bigger European Orchestras. I know he does it, but we want more recordings of the same!
Quote"one of the best living conductors today"
Oh yes.
Japanese orchestras are technically excellent. But their modern instruments and halls tend to emphasize high frequencies (strings and brass in particular). The aural experience i sdistinctly sharp by western ears. Check the Bernstein NYP Shostakovich 5th. It's better than the 1959 (Carnegie Hall) version but the acoustic is synthetic (dead and larded with artificial reverb). Get the Tokyo NHK, Osaka Philharmonic or Saito Kinen to play in Symphony Hall, Boston, the Musikverein or Concertgebouw and I trust would all have a different musical experience.
Quote from: hautbois on July 03, 2009, 06:50:09 PM
Yupe. Europeans and Americans, and actually a substantial amount of Asians as well, just not Malaysian.
Howard
p.s. Kees Bakels is an amazing conductor, well at least from the work that i have witnesses of him with the MPO. Apparently he is very highly regarded in the performing circuit, even said to be one of the best living conductors today.
There is really nothing unusual about having members of an Asian orchestra that are Europeans or Americans. BPO and other European and American orchestras have had Asian members for years ...
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 07:11:59 PM
There is really nothing unusual about having members of an Asian orchestra that are Europeans or Americans. BPO and other European and American orchestras have had Asian members for years ...
Indeed, but the Malaysian Philharmonic has 5 Malaysians. Can you imagine the New York Philharmonic having 80 Malaysians?
http://www.malaysianphilharmonic.com/index.php (http://www.malaysianphilharmonic.com/index.php)
Still, i love the orchestra. It's the orchestra i 'grew up' with. And they are still fantastic as ever.
Howard
Psssh, i wish I had that type of programming where I live.
Quote from: hautbois on July 04, 2009, 06:32:28 AM
Indeed, but the Malaysian Philharmonic has 5 Malaysians. Can you imagine the New York Philharmonic having 80 Malaysians?
Not sure if you meant 80 New Yorkers or 80 Americans? NYPO must have some foreign-born members in its rank ...