Brahms 3rd Symphony = The color of the trees in Autumn
Bach C-major Violin Sonata = Blue
Brahms 2nd Viola/Clarinet Sonata = Dark Orange
Vaughan-Williams Sea Symphony = Hazy green
Rebecca Clarke Viola Sonata = Red
Contribute.
What's with these terse commands on the internet these days? An order like "Contribute." doesn't make me want to do so.
Quote from: Dana on July 01, 2009, 08:36:00 PM
Brahms 3rd Symphony = The color of the trees in Autumn
Vaughan-Williams Sea Symphony = Hazy green
Brahms 3rd symphony = mossy old stone in late afternoon sun
VW Sea Symphony = bilge :P
Brahms 4th symphony = jet black with silver highlights (outer movements), sea gray (inner movements)
VW 9th symphony = darkest shades of blue and green
Mahler 4th symphony = light blue; 5th symphony = brassy :) ; 6th symphony = deep green; 7th symphony = dark blue; 8th symphony = all shades of red.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 01, 2009, 11:00:43 PM
Brahms 4th symphony = jet black with silver highlights (outer movements), sea gray (inner movements)
Strangely, I am influenced by external factors when feeling the "color" of music. My first recording of Brahms' 4th was Carlos Kleiber on a DG LP. Because it was the "yellow label," I thought of it as "golden" or brass-colored music; because the cover art was a steel-gray photo of Kleiber, there were some steel-gray characteristics to the sound too.
Nothing strange about that at all! There are probably a variety of factors that influence the perceived "colour" of music, beyond its harmony and instrumentation.
Quote from: The Six on July 01, 2009, 10:39:10 PM
What's with these terse commands on the internet these days? An order like "Contribute." doesn't make me want to do so.
Right. But it's a nice change from
Discuss.
;)
Quote from: eyeresist on July 01, 2009, 11:59:28 PM
Nothing strange about that at all! There are probably a variety of factors that influence the perceived "colour" of music, beyond its harmony and instrumentation.
Yes, but it seems a bit strange to me, to attribute a single color to a 40-minute multimovement work which includes a great deal of contrast.
Matisse, The Conversation
= G-flat Major
Vaughan Williams - A Sea Symphony - Pea Soup Green
RAY!!!
There's always one, isn't there 8)
Schubert - String Quintet in C (bright sunny yellow and clear azure sky)
Brahms - Clarinet Quintet (multi-coloured autumn leaves)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 02, 2009, 04:58:57 AM
RAY!!!
There's always one, isn't there 8)
;D 0:) I didn't want to disappoint you, Karl. 8)
Shostakovich - Symphony No. 10 RED
Strangely, I have never associated music with color unless some external factors--often record jackets--suggested it to me. To me, color is one thing, music another. And like Karl, I cannot see how such multifaceted compositions as Brahms' Fourth Symphony and Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony can be associated with ONE color...
(I might add that I do not share the antipathy to A Sea Symphony that has been expressed on this thread. It's a big, late-Romantic work to be sure, so I can see why it makes some who prefer smaller, leaner works "seasick," :) but I like it a lot. And I cannot imagine a better recording than the classic Adrian Boult/LPO from--I believe--the 1950s.)
Quote from: Dana on July 01, 2009, 08:36:00 PM
Brahms 3rd Symphony = The color of the trees in Autumn
Wrong.
Brahms 1st Symphony = black = winter
Brahms 2nd Symphony = white = spring
Brahms 3rd Symphony = green = summer
Brahms 4rd Symphony = yellow = autumn
Michael Torke
Colours
It's a veritable prism full of colours. ;D
BWV 846, by Glenn Gould
It's a darkened room. A kitchen, I think. But there's a window at the other end, and light streaming in from the outside just manages to illuminate a silvery metallic sink. The tap has not been closed properly and I hear the water dripping.
(Generally BWV 846 evokes in me the scene of a clear stream of water flowing over small rocks.)
I don't suffer (enjoy?) synesthesia and I'm not aware of colors coming to mind when I listen to music, but I'll pay attention next time and let you know. ;D
I don't want to spoil the party, but the frequent association of Brahms with autumnal colors is a stereotype. ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 02, 2009, 08:14:05 AM
I don't suffer (enjoy?) synesthesia and I'm not aware of colors coming to mind when I listen to music, but I'll pay attention next time and let you know. ;D
I think synesthesia requires a brain tumor. Since we are sound in mind and body will simply have to enjoy the music as is. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on July 02, 2009, 08:41:01 AM
I don't want to spoil the party, but the frequent association of Brahms with autumnal colors is a stereotype. ;D
0:)
Quote from: DavidW on July 02, 2009, 08:51:49 AM
I think synesthesia requires a brain tumor. Since we are sound in mind and body will simply have to enjoy the music as is. ;D
Speak for yourself, Dave! ;)
I may not have a tumor (though my wife might think it would explain a lot if I did!) but ever since my last concussion I still suffer some consequences--dysnomia, for instance--but nothing as cool as synesthesia! ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 02, 2009, 09:47:33 AM
Speak for yourself, Dave! ;)
I may not have a tumor (though my wife might think it would explain a lot if I did!) but ever since my last concussion I still suffer some consequences--dysnomia, for instance--but nothing as cool as synesthesia! ;D
Oh wow the brain is a delicate thing.
Quote from: DavidW on July 02, 2009, 09:57:16 AM
Oh wow the brain is a delicate thing.
Mine's not!!
Quote from: DavidW on July 02, 2009, 09:57:16 AM
Oh wow the brain is a delicate thing.
Yep, three pounds of porridge wired up and stuffed into an upside-down bowl! ;D
Of course tinkling percussion is bright.
Double basses are darker.
And of course you will see different hues during the course of a work. Check out my review of Englund's SQ for an example of this thread.
DSCH 10= blue or green,... maybe some red, but not black
The first thing that pops up as black, for me, is Mossolov's SQ No.1. Very grimey... dirty.
sound=color/light... no arguements here.
There shouldn't be any subjectiveness here. The amount of "waves per..." should correspond accordingly, whether they be sound waves or light "waves." What color moves at 444 cycles per? It should be easy enough to find a scientist to ask. Have we no polymaths here???Keep in mind that color blind people see red and green the same.
But y'alls being too simple. What about purple? Lime green? Elgin blue? Cyan? Hot pink?
Maybe serious composers don't compose in hot pink?
Segerstam, where are you :o???
Quote from: rappy on July 02, 2009, 06:13:12 AM
Brahms 1st Symphony = black = winter
Brahms 2nd Symphony = white = spring
Brahms 3rd Symphony = green = summer
Brahms 4rd Symphony = yellow = autumn
Oh God - Brahms' symphony cycle as Vivaldi tribute.
Vibrational Fields
Quote from: Spitvalve on July 01, 2009, 11:28:39 PM
Strangely, I am influenced by external factors when feeling the "color" of music. My first recording of Brahms' 4th was Carlos Kleiber on a DG LP. Because it was the "yellow label," I thought of it as "golden" or brass-colored music; because the cover art was a steel-gray photo of Kleiber, there were some steel-gray characteristics to the sound too.
Was Scriabin really a synesthete?
What about the Farben (Colors) movement from Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra? Exactly which colors did he use there? >:D
Quote from: corey on July 05, 2009, 05:44:07 AM
What about the Farben (Colors) movement from Schoenberg's Five Pieces for Orchestra? Exactly which colors did he use there? >:D
If that's where we're going, then I nominate Bliss's
Color Symphony.
^ Of course.
Quote from: schweitzeralan on July 05, 2009, 03:43:27 AM
Was Scriabin really a synesthete?
Yes. That's why he wrote
Prometheus and included a "color organ"--and I have never heard of a recent performance that used it as he scored it...?
Quote from: The Six on July 01, 2009, 10:39:10 PMWhat's with these terse commands on the internet these days? An order like "Contribute." doesn't make me want to do so.
Dear "The Six,"
You are cordially invited to take place in an internet discussion on the relationship between the aural appreciation of music, and the other senses of the body; specifically, those pertaining to sight and imagination. As you may be aware, the concept of color in music is often bandied about, but I'm not entirely sure that people know what they mean when they say this (myself included). People often speak of the brilliantly colorful music of Ravel, or Rimsky-Korsakov, for instance, but rarely do they say the same thing of Shostakovich's or Smetana's music, for instance. I'm not suggesting that the music of the latter group of example is colorless. Quite the opposite! The flaw lies in the listener's part.
I know a man who speaks about color more than any other person I've ever met. This man is neither conductor, nor composer, nor singer, nor even painter. This man's name was Edward Parmentier, and he plays the harpsichord - an instrument which people often say is used for it's "dry," or "colorless" sound. But the way this man's eyes would light up when discussing the colors inherent in the lines of Bach's music, or Muffat's, or Corelli's!
This reveals a disconnect between the way the listener hears the music, and the way the composer hears it. Color is an inherent part of the music - like orchestration. When a composer writes a certain line, for instance, he doesn't say "well, I suppose I'll give this line to the trombones." He writes a melody
which could only be played by trombones, and if any other instrument played it, it would not be the same melody. Since each instrument naturally has it's own particular range of color, the same goes for color, and I think that any given piece of music has an inherent kind of color to it, which one ought to be able to discern without being affected by this condition people call synesthesia.
I hope that you'll join us for this wonderful, and stimulating conversation about music, and I wish you a good day. Sincerely yours,
Dana :P
Very nice, Dana! :D
Quote from: Dana on July 06, 2009, 10:16:42 AM
...People often speak of the brilliantly colorful music of Ravel, or Rimsky-Korsakov, for instance, but rarely do they say the same thing of Shostakovich's or Smetana's music, for instance. I'm not suggesting that the music of the latter group of example is colorless. Quite the opposite! The flaw lies in the listener's part.
Or maybe just in the way we speak of these things. I don't feel that either Smetana's or Shostakovich's music lacks color even compared to the notable Ravel or RK. 8) Shostakovich in particular is a master of orchestral color.
Quote from: Dana on July 06, 2009, 10:16:42 AM
...Color is an inherent part of the music - like orchestration. When a composer writes a certain line, for instance, he doesn't say "well, I suppose I'll give this line to the trombones." He writes a melody which could only be played by trombones, and if any other instrument played it, it would not be the same melody. Since each instrument naturally has it's own particular range of color, the same goes for color, and I think that any given piece of music has an inherent kind of color to it, which one ought to be able to discern without being affected by this condition people call synesthesia.
Well said. But I must add that when musicians talk about "musical color," we don't at all mean the visual part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Musical "color" is analogous to the color our eyes see in that they both result from vibrational frequencies or frequency combinations, but unless one is gifted with synesthesia, there is no direct correlation between visual color and musical color.
Quote from: jochanaan on July 06, 2009, 10:06:07 AM
Yes. That's why he wrote Prometheus and included a "color organ"--and I have never heard of a recent performance that used it as he scored it...?
Great work!
Quote from: Dana on July 06, 2009, 10:16:42 AM
Dear "The Six,"
You are cordially invited to take place in an internet discussion on the relationship between the aural appreciation of music, and the other senses of the body; specifically, those pertaining to sight and imagination. As you may be aware, the concept of color in music is often bandied about, but I'm not entirely sure that people know what they mean when they say this (myself included). People often speak of the brilliantly colorful music of Ravel, or Rimsky-Korsakov, for instance, but rarely do they say the same thing of Shostakovich's or Smetana's music, for instance. I'm not suggesting that the music of the latter group of example is colorless. Quite the opposite! The flaw lies in the listener's part.
I know a man who speaks about color more than any other person I've ever met. This man is neither conductor, nor composer, nor singer, nor even painter. This man's name was Edward Parmentier, and he plays the harpsichord - an instrument which people often say is used for it's "dry," or "colorless" sound. But the way this man's eyes would light up when discussing the colors inherent in the lines of Bach's music, or Muffat's, or Corelli's!
This reveals a disconnect between the way the listener hears the music, and the way the composer hears it. Color is an inherent part of the music - like orchestration. When a composer writes a certain line, for instance, he doesn't say "well, I suppose I'll give this line to the trombones." He writes a melody which could only be played by trombones, and if any other instrument played it, it would not be the same melody. Since each instrument naturally has it's own particular range of color, the same goes for color, and I think that any given piece of music has an inherent kind of color to it, which one ought to be able to discern without being affected by this condition people call synesthesia.
I hope that you'll join us for this wonderful, and stimulating conversation about music, and I wish you a good day. Sincerely yours,
Dana :P
Thanks for elaborating. I got the wrong idea from your original post. I thought you wanted to discuss the relationship some "see" between music and visual color. But now I see you actually want to discuss timbre.
Some composers (Ravel the usual example) are fond of a broad palette of orchestral color and employ the range of colors and contrasts to spectacular effect--just as some painters (i.e. Matisse and Bonnard) are noted as colorists.
The harpsichord is "colorless" because of the limited palette of timbres compared to, say, an organ, piano, or guitar--not because it lacks color altogether.
I would not be surprised if some composers write as you suggest. Nor would I be surprised to learn that some composers work in the opposite manner, composing the counterpoint before deciding how to voice it. And I've read of composers having made autograph changes to scores, replacing, say, oboes with clarinets in a given passage.
Anything by Verdi = Green ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on July 06, 2009, 10:06:07 AM
Yes. That's why he wrote Prometheus and included a "color organ"--and I have never heard of a recent performance that used it as he scored it...?
If Scriabin was a synesthete, he wouldn't
need a colour organ.
I enjoy listening to Shostakovich Sym 7 first movement (Bernstein/Chicago) where he has started the march of approaching army. He adds various instruments, one by one, and each adds a new color to the listening experience and invites comparison to instruments already sounding in the march and the new ones being currently added. That is such a wonderful and interesting listening experience for me ever since I first tried it. There's just tons of neat things going on in section of the first movement.
I cannot fathom why some people downplay this sym. I could listen to it endlessly, each time coming up with a new idea for listening.
I also have great listening enjoyment with Verdi's "Otello" with the musical description of the bonfire he has provided in the opening scene. The flames lick and curl and lash out; they rise up and go down, expand sideways, etc.
Listen to it paying attention to the basses one time, the cellos the next time, just the violins, or just any other instrument you might desire. It is a wonderful way to see how the instruments in the orchestra have a certain job to do per the creator. This little exercise enriches the listening experience immeasurably. Once one has finished the multiple repeats explained above, the listener is now ready to receive his reward - he simply settles back and listens to the music no longer looking for one instrument, but just lets the music flow over him and notice the richness of the experience now compared to the first listen. It is tremendous! Try it sometime! The reward is immediate.
Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony:
The symphony has a craggy, monolithic quality to it, which has always reminded me of Rothko's great paintings in the London Tate Gallery.
I find both the Symphony and the paintings to be wonderfully moving, visionary works.
Good morning,
Anne! Delightful post, thank you.
Quote from: Anne on July 06, 2009, 10:43:47 PM
I enjoy listening to Shostakovich Sym 7 first movement (Bernstein/Chicago) where he has started the march of approaching army. He adds various instruments, one by one, and each adds a new color to the listening experience and invites comparison to instruments already sounding in the march and the new ones being currently added. That is such a wonderful and interesting listening experience for me ever since I first tried it. There's just tons of neat things going on in section of the first movement.
I cannot fathom why some people downplay this sym. I could listen to it endlessly, each time coming up with a new idea for listening.
I also have great listening enjoyment with Verdi's "Otello" with the musical description of the bonfire he has provided in the opening scene. The flames lick and curl and lash out; they rise up and go down, expand sideways, etc.
Listen to it paying attention to the basses one time, the cellos the next time, just the violins, or just any other instrument you might desire. It is a wonderful way to see how the instruments in the orchestra have a certain job to do per the creator. This little exercise enriches the listening experience immeasurably. Once one has finished the multiple repeats explained above, the listener is now ready to receive his reward - he simply settles back and listens to the music no longer looking for one instrument, but just lets the music flow over him and notice the richness of the experience now compared to the first listen. It is tremendous! Try it sometime! The reward is immediate.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 07, 2009, 03:05:08 AM
I find both the Symphony and the paintings to be wonderfully moving, visionary works.
And what is the vision the painting is trying to convey?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 07, 2009, 05:44:13 AM
And what is the vision the painting is trying to convey?
Neither the painting nor the artist are "trying to convey a vision." In order to learn, you need to start at the beginning. First you need to empty your mind of all the garbage that you think you know. You're not stupid, but all that crap seriously interferes with your ability to learn.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 06, 2009, 08:08:41 PM
If Scriabin was a synesthete, he wouldn't need a colour organ.
Yes he would--to convey his experience to us non-synesthetes. ;D
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 06, 2009, 05:04:30 PMI thought you wanted to discuss the relationship some "see" between music and visual color. But now I see you actually want to discuss timbre.
People talk about certain sounds/instruments having added emotional punch - depending on the setting, a piccolo can be either hopeful, or neurotic, etc, and key signatures tend to have similar proporties. F-major is pastoral, F-minor is tragic, E-flat major is triumphant, D-major is contented etc. The same can be said about color - most people will generally agree that red is more related to anger than to any other emotion, that a bright yellow is happy, that a deep blue has calming properties to it. This line of reasoning is what started this thread. There's a pretty close relationship between color and timbre as well.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 07, 2009, 05:44:13 AM
And what is the vision the painting is trying to convey?
Well, this is a subjective reaction and I would never presume to make some kind of definitive statement about 'meaning' in a work of art - as I could not possibly know. But, to me these are great philosophical/spiritual works, which make me think and wonder about what is behind them. Shortly before he died Vaughan Williams said that 'the arts being the means by which we can look through the magic casements and see what lies beyond'. I would go along with this. VW's 9th or Rothko's paintings express things (I believe) which cannot really be put into words - which is where their greatness lies. Don't think I've expressed this very well - but best I can do for now.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on July 07, 2009, 05:44:13 AM
And what is the vision the painting is trying to convey?
LOL - I seem to be the only one to realise Josquin is making a joke here.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 08, 2009, 09:00:49 PM
LOL - I seem to be the only one to realise Josquin is making a joke here.
No, the wordplay is obvious. So is the dig at Rothko, at least to those familiar with his opinions re. "modern" art.
Obviously I need a sense of humour transplant. I'll arrange one next week.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 01, 2009, 11:59:28 PM
Nothing strange about that at all! There are probably a variety of factors that influence the perceived "colour" of music, beyond its harmony and instrumentation.
When I think of color in music I tend to think of harmony, instrumention, and elements of nuance and sensuousness, a topic which informed an earlier thread. this is not to discount synesthetic attributes documented in this thread. For me there were many composers at the end of the 19th century and first half of the 20th who created harmonies, chords and intervals which were rich in coloristic effects. Several of these composers who come to mind include, among others
Rachmaninoff
Scriabin
Medtner
Debussy
Ravel
Florent Schmitt
Joseph Marx
Sibelius
Madetoja
Klami (Symphonie enfantine)
Bax
Howells
Delius
John Ireland
Paul Creston
(early) Roslavets
Alexander Krein
Gliere
Szymonowski (sp)
Suk
Bloch
Novak
Mompou
Khatchaturian
Alexandrov
movie composers John Williams; Jerry Goldsmith; Danny Elfman
Boulanger
VW
Just a few mentioned. The "color" effect would probabably be addressed and explained by music theorists and professionals. The ones mentioned above are just a few of my very favorites.
There'sa very interesting work by the English composer Sir Arthur Bliss (1891-1975) called "A Colour Symphony"(English spelling). Each of the four movements
represents a different color,red,green etc.
Actually, the colors represent heraldic ones. But I recommend it. If you like the music of William Walton, you should like this. I have the Naxos recording with Paul Daniel and the English Northern Philharmonia,and there's another one on Chandos which I haven't heard.
If some enterprising conductor would program this piece at concerts, I'm convinvced that audiences would really enjoy it.
Many of the recordings made by Columbia/CBS back in the 60s and 70s have a kind of dry,"greyish" sound. But many by Decca and DG sound more prismatic and atmospheric. When Lorin Maazel started to make recordings with the Cleveland orchestra for Decca in the 70s after he succeeded Szell , I could scarcely recognize the sound of the orchestra;it was just much more"colorful".
It also helped that the recordings were made in a more resonant place than the orchestra's home at Severance hall.
Quote from: Superhorn on July 12, 2009, 11:39:02 AM
There'sa very interesting work by the English composer Sir Arthur Bliss (1891-1975) called "A Colour Symphony"(English spelling). Each of the four movements
represents a different color,red,green etc.
Actually, the colors represent heraldic ones. But I recommend it. If you like the music of William Walton, you should like this. I have the Naxos recording with Paul Daniel and the English Northern Philharmonia,and there's another one on Chandos which I haven't heard.
If some enterprising conductor would program this piece at concerts, I'm convinvced that audiences would really enjoy it.
Many of the recordings made by Columbia/CBS back in the 60s and 70s have a kind of dry,"greyish" sound. But many by Decca and DG sound more prismatic and atmospheric. When Lorin Maazel started to make recordings with the Cleveland orchestra for Decca in the 70s after he succeeded Szell , I could scarcely recognize the sound of the orchestra;it was just much more"colorful".
It also helped that the recordings were made in a more resonant place than the orchestra's home at Severance hall.
Yes, the Colour Symphony by Bliss is a very enjoyable work - my favourite performance is on an EMI CD with Sir Charles Groves conducting.
Quote from: John on July 02, 2009, 06:17:31 AM
Michael Torke
Colours
It's a veritable prism full of colours. ;D
I had thought that Torke's "Color Music" was a single multimovement composition, but a little Googling shows that they were actually separate pieces written in a several-year period for many instrumental combinations. Apparently Torke is also a synesthete. 8)