I don't care how much of an arrogant twit or prima donna he is (or so i hear), this man has one of the most perfect techniques i ever heard and his interpretations are nearly always perfect. I can't believe he's already 50 years old. Somebody needs to lock in a recording studio before he loses his ability.
What's with all those virtuosos we got in this past several decades anyway? Pogorelich, Feltsman, Zimerman, Gilels, Hamelin (just to name a few), is there anything comparable when it comes to violin or other instruments?
Er...? ??? ??? ???
I'm not sure I get your point.
He's one of my favorite pianists.
OK, he's probably the favorite...
Still, we've had that discussion about him being a prima donna before (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13581.msg405643.html#msg405643) (and by "we" I mean "we"! ;D) - and nothing conclusive came of it.
I don't really understand that last question from your post.
Quote from: MrOsa on June 04, 2007, 04:52:32 PM
I'm not sure I get your point.
***
I don't really understand that last question from your post.
I understand perfectly. When you're super-excited about a person (as we are about Zimerman 0:)), you tend to babble incoherently ...... Which, appropriately, is exactly what has transpired with full grace and vigor ...........
I don't know, when people say "virtuoso", the first 3 living musicians pops up in my head are Arcadi Volodos, Lang Lang and Itzhak Perlman.
Hmmm..........
;D 0:)
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 04, 2007, 05:31:24 PM
now, what's wrong with Perlman?
I thought they meant L. Lang... :-\
8)
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 04, 2007, 05:06:20 PM
the first 3 living musicians pops up in my head are Arcadi Volodos, Lang Lang and Itzhak Perlman.
Musicians? I admit I don't know Volodos, but Lang Lang and Perlman or no musicians! Good at their chosen instrument, period.
Mikhail Pletnev is a Musician! Pianist. Conductor. Arranger. Composer. All in the one person of a musician.
Quote from: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 06:25:37 PMMusicians? I admit I don't know Volodos, but Lang Lang and Perlman or no musicians! Good at their chosen instrument, period. Mikhail Pletnev is a Musician! Pianist. Conductor. Arranger. Composer. All in the one person of a musician.
I think, and I'm just guessing here ;), by musician he meant, "one who plays a musical instrument."
Both Lang Lang and Perlman would meet this definition of
musician.
Yes, I know that's what he meant but Lang Lang is a pianist and Perlman a violinist. Sorry to be nitpicking - no doubt to the dismay of Sergeant Yorck! ;) - but I did want to emphasise the meaning of 'musician' which I heard Pletnev explain in an interesting and informative interview. :)
Just to prevent further argument, my definition of "virtuoso" is:
One who is extremely skilled with a musical instrument.
Now they all fit that category. :D
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 04, 2007, 08:46:41 PM
Just to prevent further argument, my definition of "virtuoso" is:
One who is extremely skilled with a musical instrument.
Now they all fit that category. :D
I qualify!
(I won't tell you the instrument, though)
and to prevent any possible misunderstanding: My post was not intended as an argument! The Fact, just the fact, Sir! ;D
That's alright, I'm quite sure that I didn't understand your post to begin with. ;D
Quote from: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 08:58:32 PM
and to prevent any possible misunderstanding: My post was not intended as an argument! The Fact, just the fact, Sir! ;D
I understand your point exactly. Remember the "You are not a pianist. You are a musician" comment (about Schnabel)?
Quote from: springrite on June 04, 2007, 08:53:00 PM
I qualify!
(I won't tell you the instrument, though)
Erhu? Dizi?
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 04, 2007, 09:05:33 PM
Erhu? Dizi?
Nah, that's way too "musician"-like. I am talking about something(s) that any idiot from the street can do, provided the timing is OK. We do get them in some J. Strauss works.
Quote from: springrite on June 04, 2007, 09:07:10 PM
Nah, that's way too "musician"-like. I am talking about something(s) that any idiot from the street can do, provided the timing is OK. We do get them in some J. Strauss works.
Rapping? Beatboxing?
Oh wait, Strauss doesn't know about hip-hop. :)
Is Zimerman a musician then? (He conducts, he is a great jazz improviser I'm told - not that I've heard him - he tunes pianos and gives lectures on that subject, he scuba dives - presumably humming while doing so - etc. etc. etc.)
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 04, 2007, 05:06:20 PM
I don't know, when people say "virtuoso", the first 3 living musicians pops up in my head are Arcadi Volodos, Lang Lang and Itzhak Perlman.
Volodos & Perlman are musicians. Lang Lang is crap and a joke (as well as a pompous big-headed and pig-headed "musician" - "he thinks he is one").
Quote from: MrOsa on June 05, 2007, 01:05:20 AM
Is Zimerman a musician then? (He conducts, he is a great jazz improviser I'm told - not that I've heard him - he tunes pianos and gives lectures on that subject, he scuba dives - presumably humming while doing so - etc. etc. etc.)
No, he's a
monster apparently >:D.
Is there a generally accepted definition of virtuosity? Or is it one of those vague and highly debated terms?
I've always understood it to mean a player with an extraordinary technical ability that is specific to the instrument.
Names that come to mind are Aimard and Hamelin.
Quote from: Novitiate on June 05, 2007, 06:15:41 AM
Is there a generally accepted definition of virtuosity? Or is it one of those vague and highly debated terms?
I've always understood it to mean a player with an extraordinary technical ability that is specific to the instrument.
Names that come to mind are Aimard and Hamelin.
And you think Zimerman doesn't qualify?
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 05, 2007, 07:32:16 AM
And you think Zimerman doesn't qualify?
I don't know his playing to judge. I only have his Schumann and Grieg PCs recording but I haven't listened to that for quite a while. I'll go look for it :).
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on June 05, 2007, 05:14:14 AM
Volodos & Perlman are musicians. Lang Lang is crap and a joke (as well as a pompous big-headed and pig-headed "musician" - "he thinks he is one").
you just offended 1.3 billion people there.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 05, 2007, 08:24:30 AM
you just offended 1.3 billion people there.
I hope some of those 1.3 billion people have some discernment when it comes to musical talent. Lang Lang has been disappointing, to say the least. He's young, though, and he may yet grow into his technical mastery. I'm not writing him off completely, yet.
Quote from: uffeviking on June 04, 2007, 06:25:37 PM
Musicians? I admit I don't know Volodos, but Lang Lang and Perlman or no musicians! Good at their chosen instrument, period. Mikhail Pletnev is a Musician! Pianist. Conductor. Arranger. Composer. All in the one person of a musician.
Way too harsh! I don't think you have listened very extensively to Perlman if you can make that statement. Perlman can become overbearing when given too much rein, and frequently exploits the popular taste for schmaltz in order to reap a fat paycheck, but he also can produce phenomenal music; he's an amazing fiddler. It's easy to knock someone when they have such blindingly brilliant technique; Perlman also has the smarts to go with it. Compare his work to A-S Mutter's, for instance, and there's little to knock. His Beethoven Sonatas beat hers to hell and his tone beats Kremer's by a long shot.
And if you want to find comparisons for Pletnev, then look no further than Barenboim who does everything Pletnev does as well or better.
It's way too easy to be a detractor.
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 08:46:51 AM
I hope some of those 1.3 billion people have some discernment when it comes to musical talent. Lang Lang has been disappointing, to say the least. He's young, though, and he may yet grow into his technical mastery. I'm not writing him off completely, yet.
say, you are a Chinese boy, who worships classical music from an early age, it is a fact that all the great virtuosos in the world are all westerners... you want to find an idol, someone you can identify with, and there is Lang Lang, what's wrong with that?
You say he is bad, i'm not gonna argue with you; but he is the only exciting person out of China, so, grade him on a curve please!! (in comparison to other Chinese pianists/musicians, as opposed to westerners)
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 05, 2007, 09:20:47 AM
and there is Lang Lang
I seriously doubt that's all China has to offer in terms of virtuosos...
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 05, 2007, 10:23:14 AM
I seriously doubt that's all China has to offer in terms of virtuosos...
Of course their are probably others, but not many. None with the reputation of the greatest Western Musicians.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 05, 2007, 09:20:47 AM
say, you are a Chinese boy, who worships classical music from an early age, it is a fact that all the great virtuosos in the world are all westerners... you want to find an idol, someone you can identify with, and there is Lang Lang, what's wrong with that?
You say he is bad, i'm not gonna argue with you; but he is the only exciting person out of China, so, grade him on a curve please!! (in comparison to other Chinese pianists/musicians, as opposed to westerners)
Don't forget Yo-Yo Ma.
China doesn't have a long tradition in Western classical music, but that's changing. I'll bet right now there are any number of young students just waiting to make their entrance on the world stage. With so many people there will be more than enough Chinese virtuosos who also have deeper insight into the music coming along. Just be patient. Who knows, perhaps Lang Lang too will mature and his interpretation s will gain depth. Only consider those such Pogorelich and Kissin who come from the culture and have been such big disappointments as they have aged. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the nationality, the culture, or any external factor and merely has to do with the brain of the musician. You shouldn't take criticism of Lang Lang personally, and you shouldn't look for heroes purely on the basis of national or ethnic identity. That is so limiting. The best thing about music is that ethnic and national identities dissolve in the face of the pure beauty of the sound. Look for great musicians regardless of nationality, religion, and even sex to emulate and you cannot go wrong.
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 10:47:50 AM
Don't forget Yo-Yo Ma.
China doesn't have a long tradition in Western classical music, but that's changing. I'll bet right now there are any number of young students just waiting to make their entrance on the world stage. With so many people there will be more than enough Chinese virtuosos who also have deeper insight into the music coming along. Just be patient. Who knows, perhaps Lang Lang too will mature and his interpretation s will gain depth. Only consider those such Pogorelich and Kissin who come from the culture and have been such big disappointments as they have aged. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the nationality, the culture, or any external factor and merely has to do with the brain of the musician. You shouldn't take criticism of Lang Lang personally, and you shouldn't look for heroes purely on the basis of national or ethnic identity. That is so limiting. The best thing about music is that ethnic and national identities dissolve in the face of the pure beauty of the sound. Look for great musicians regardless of nationality, religion, and even sex to emulate and you cannot go wrong.
I don't think people on this forum were taking the criticism personally, as I would imagine, few of M. Lang's companions are on this forum. As far as I know, MahlerTitan is not a poor Chinese boy recently immigrated to America. The point of the post was that while Lang might not be an incredible virtuoso, his sucess as a Chinese man in Classical music might be a source of inspiration for other Chinese-Americans, paricuarily youths, who don't see a great deal of Chinese classical musicans featured in American/European orchestral halls. It's a valid point.
yeah, whole bunch of japanese/Koreans, but no Chinese, i was like WTF?
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 05, 2007, 12:06:23 PM
yeah, whole bunch of japanese/Koreans, but no Chinese, i was like WTF?
Well ....... now there's a tactful summary .........
Quote from: Steve on June 05, 2007, 10:51:42 AM
I don't people on this forum were taking the criticism personally, as I would imagine, few of M. Lang's companions are on this forum. As far as I know, MahlerTitan is not a poor Chinese boy recently immigrated to America. The point of the post was that while Lang might not be an incredible virtuoso, his sucess as a Chinese man in Classical music might be a source of inspiration for other Chinese-Americans, paricuarily youths, who don't see a great deal of Chinese classical musicans featured in American/European orchestral halls. It's a valid point.
???
Edit please! I'm sure you have a point somewhere. It would be nice if the post were a little more coherent. And who is M. Lang?
Quote from: D Minor on June 05, 2007, 12:08:23 PM
Well ....... now there's a tactful summary .........
it's a fact.
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 12:08:59 PM
???
Edit please! I'm sure you have a point somewhere. It would be nice if the post were a little more coherent. And who is M. Lang?
What? Who is M. Lang? Obviously, I was referring to Lang Lang. As to my post, I've inserted the word 'think' into the first sentence. I don't see a problem with it now.
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 12:08:59 PM
???
Edit please! I'm sure you have a point somewhere. It would be nice if the post were a little more coherent. And who is M. Lang?
I'll take a wild guess that M. Lang is none other than the mediocre pianist Lang Lang.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on June 05, 2007, 08:24:30 AM
you just offended 1.3 billion people there.
So what? I am Malaysian Chinese and if I believe that a musician is crappy, I say so. Read my review of his Tch PC 1 below:-
http://www.musicandcdreview.com/Phila-Eschen.htm
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 08:56:05 AM
Perlman also has the smarts to go with it. Compare his work to A-S Mutter's, for instance, and there's little to knock. His Beethoven Sonatas beat hers to hell and his tone beats Kremer's by a long shot.
Sigh...more Mutter bashing. This forum loves to do that. Mutter is a serious MUSICIAN. She and Orkis spent an entire year of their lives playing nothing but the Beethoven sonatas. Perlman went into the studio and knocked them out, got his paycheck and went on to something else.
Mutter and Orkis are an incredible team, a tight team, who've worked together for years. They gave us interpertations that are entirely new. No one has to like what they did, but really, they certainly deserve respect for their individuality and fresh insight in Beethoven.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2007, 03:23:34 PM
Sigh...more Mutter bashing. This forum loves to do that. Mutter is a serious MUSICIAN. She and Orkis spent an entire year of their lives playing nothing but the Beethoven sonatas. Perlman went into the studio and knocked them out, got his paycheck and went on to something else.
Mutter and Orkis are an incredible team, a tight team, who've worked together for years. They gave us interpertations that are entirely new. No one has to like what they did, but really, they certainly deserve respect for their individuality and fresh insight in Beethoven.
Sarge
Im with you on this Sarge. To me Perlman is history.....
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on June 05, 2007, 01:38:52 PM
So what? I am Malaysian Chinese and if I believe that a musician is crappy, I say so. Read my review of his Tch PC 1 below:-
http://www.musicandcdreview.com/Phila-Eschen.htm
thanks for posting the link to the review.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2007, 03:23:34 PM
Sigh...more Mutter bashing. This forum loves to do that. Mutter is a serious MUSICIAN. She and Orkis spent an entire year of their lives playing nothing but the Beethoven sonatas. Perlman went into the studio and knocked them out, got his paycheck and went on to something else.
Mutter and Orkis are an incredible team, a tight team, who've worked together for years. They gave us interpertations that are entirely new. No one has to like what they did, but really, they certainly deserve respect for their individuality and fresh insight in Beethoven.
Sarge
Sorry Sarge, but those Beethoven sonatas are execrable! Her early recording of the Beethoven trios with Rostropovich and Giuranna is sparkling, her Berg irreproachable, but those sonatas with Orkis are embarrassingly awful. Her recent Mozart recordings (Concerti and piano trios) aren't to my taste, but they are also well done. Perlman's sonatas with Ashkenazy are much, much better.
Sorry for the argument guys, I started it.
OK: so if you like zimmerman, good for you. if you like lang lang, good for you. if you like perlman, good for you. if you like volodos, good for you. No one can change the personal status you have them in your heart.
All happy now? ;D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2007, 03:23:34 PM
Sigh...more Mutter bashing. This forum loves to do that. Mutter is a serious MUSICIAN.
Mutter is a joke. See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_y76vjSKAM
Anybody who dares butcher the Kreutzer like that doesn't have any business being called a 'serious musician'.
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 05, 2007, 04:50:15 PM
All happy now? ;D
Nope. Your relativism disgusts me.
Quote from: Rabin_Fan on June 05, 2007, 01:38:52 PM
So what? I am Malaysian Chinese and if I believe that a musician is crappy, I say so. Read my review of his Tch PC 1 below:-
http://www.musicandcdreview.com/Phila-Eschen.htm
so, i still think lang lang is overrated.
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 03:39:34 PM
Sorry Sarge, but those Beethoven sonatas are execrable! Her early recording of the Beethoven trios with Rostropovich and Giuranna is sparkling, her Berg irreproachable, but those sonatas with Orkis are embarrassingly awful. Her recent Mozart recordings (Concerti and piano trios) aren't to my taste, but they are also well done. Perlman's sonatas with Ashkenazy are much, much better.
You display excellent taste, as always. Well said.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 05, 2007, 04:56:01 PM
Nope. Your relativism disgusts me.
Don't even start with the personal attacks. This is a civilized forum.
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 05, 2007, 05:12:41 PM
Don't even start with the personal attacks. This is a civilized forum.
There's no such thing as a civilized forum. We are all savages. ;D
Quote from: Bunny on June 05, 2007, 03:39:34 PM
Sorry Sarge, but those Beethoven sonatas are execrable! Her early recording of the Beethoven trios with Rostropovich and Giuranna is sparkling, her Berg irreproachable, but those sonatas with Orkis are embarrassingly awful. Her recent Mozart recordings (Concerti and piano trios) aren't to my taste, but they are also well done. Perlman's sonatas with Ashkenazy are much, much better.
I'd agree with your assessment, Bunny. Perlman has produced superior work.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 05, 2007, 05:18:36 PM
There's no such thing as a civilized forum. We are all savages. ;D
nah-uh, i'm way more civilized than you are.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 05, 2007, 05:18:36 PM
There's no such thing as a civilized forum. We are all savages. ;D
Let's cut the nonsense and stay on topic now. Sorry everbody.
Yes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebXQyOTfC20
Quote from: Robert on June 05, 2007, 03:26:36 PM
Im with you on this Sarge. To me Perlman is history.....
No, no, no Robert....we still need him for the occasional movie score by John Williams, White House concerts, Kennedy Honors stuff,.............and for Heaven's sake, what would the Academy Awards show be without Perlman.....especially if Ma is booked! ;D
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 05, 2007, 05:12:41 PM
Don't even start with the personal attacks. This is a civilized forum.
You call this uncivilized?
You must be new to GMG...
I feel that he is a monster when I listen....
his Debussy "Preludes" recording.
He looks like a demon of extreme accuracy.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 05, 2007, 04:52:55 PM
Mutter is a joke. See for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_y76vjSKAM
Anybody who dares butcher the Kreutzer like that doesn't have any business being called a 'serious musician'.
I think the problem is that she's become a
too serious musician, not that she's not serious enough. Everything in this interpretation is so overthought, so calculatedly overwrought that one begins to wonder just when Ms. Mutter began to find Beethoven boring. There's not an ounce of spontaneity, nor chemistry between the two musicians. While they are clearly playing the same music together, they aren't "making beautiful music," which is a pity because the Kreutzer is an extremely seductive work. It's really a pity because if they had just started playing without rehearsal and study I'll bet that a livelier, more playful recording would have resulted. I kept looking at that straightened hair, overly tight dress and wished for the young girl with the bouncy, uncontrolled curls who just loved making music as opposed to the mature, extremely controlled woman who is so wary that every gesture looks rehearsed and planned.
There are points where the sound is really quite lovely; both Mutter and Orkis really know how to produce a beautiful tone. But with Mutter's insistance on little of no vibrato when the pitch climbs and the volume decreases, the only way I can describe the sound is "sick kitten." I love the sound of a violin without vibrato, but I've come to realize that it doesn't work with steel strings. That wonderful, oily sound that flows thickly like honey comes not only from technique but also from the gut string. Anyone who's ever picked up a steel string guitar and a nylon or gut string guitar knows that the two materials are never going to produce sounds with the same qualities, and a different technique is necessary with the two materials.
I can't begin to get into the strange rhythmic choices which when coupled with the dynamics produce a "wax on wax off" effect. There's just no tension or forward propulsion, just buildup and letdown, buildup and letdown, buildup and letdown... It's even sadder than I remember it.