GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: JoshLilly on June 05, 2007, 06:04:04 AM

Title: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: JoshLilly on June 05, 2007, 06:04:04 AM
Er... yep. Supposedly. I've read that when the bodies were exhumed in the 1880s that photographs were taken. Do these photographs still survive? I assume that by that time both would have been only the skeletal remains, but I am curious as to whether these photographs were preserved. And also a bit curious as to why this was done. I don't think they had sufficient equipment or processes to determined much of value by examining the skeletons in that time. I'm sure they could discover a little bit, but I'm not really sure what. Maybe it was one of those phrenology things; all I've seen is that it was for "scientists" to examine the bodies.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Joe Barron on June 05, 2007, 07:17:50 AM
This was news to me, but a quick Internet search shows that Beethoven was dinsinterred twice — the first time in 1863, when he was reburied in a more secure casket inside a brick vault, and again on June 22, 1888, when he was exhumed from the Währinger Cemetery, measured and moved to the Central Cemetery in Vienna, Austria. His skull was photographed at this time, and a cast was made:

(http://images.usatoday.com/tech/_photos/2005/12/07/ludwig180.jpg)

Schubert was disinterred and reburied along with him each time.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: JoshLilly on June 05, 2007, 09:04:32 AM
There's one photo. Thanks!
I hear that Bruckner actually held Beethoven's skull in 1888.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Steve on June 05, 2007, 10:53:26 AM
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 05, 2007, 07:17:50 AM
This was news to me, but a quick Internet search shows that Beethoven was dinsinterred twice ? the first time in 1863, when he was reburied in a more secure casket inside a brick vault, and again on June 22, 1888, when he was exhumed from the Währinger Cemetery, measured and moved to the Central Cemetery in Vienna, Austria. His skull was photographed at this time, and a cast was made:

(http://images.usatoday.com/tech/_photos/2005/12/07/ludwig180.jpg)

Schubert was disinterred and reburied along with him each time.

Was he found with the score of the 10th?  ;D
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 11:18:47 AM
FWIW:

Beethoven's "life-mask", made by Franz Klein in 1812, when the composer was 42 years old.

(http://dienstleistungen.freepage.de/cgi-bin/feets/freepage_ext/41030x030A/rewrite/language/FaceMask1812.jpg)
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Joe Barron on June 05, 2007, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: Steve on June 05, 2007, 10:53:26 AM
Was he found with the score of the 10th?  ;D

He was too busy decomposing.

Josh, my internet sources say Bruckner held Schubert's skull before it was reinterred in 1888. It may be he held Beethoven's, too.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 11:51:55 AM
This from the web:

Schubert, Andreas Theodor, b Vienna 7th Nov 1823, d 1893
Financial Councillor
Andreas was Schubert's stepbrother, aged just 5 at his death. Mind you, this didn't stop him from identifying a picture (the 'chalk picture') of a youth as being Schubert at 16. He does seem to have been more than a little irreverent - he took a tooth from Schubert's skull when it was exhumed, and destroyed the manuscript of Der Tod und das Mädchen, D531; by cutting it up into 8 pieces for souvenirs. He was also apparently the source of the rumour that Schubert was banned from the family home. He became a financial councillor, and married Anna Fleurriet.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 11:54:32 AM
Beethoven's Graves:

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/MeetLvB/AustriaViennaGraves.html
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: mahlertitan on June 05, 2007, 12:09:52 PM
Bruckner sure liked dead bodies.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Scriptavolant on June 05, 2007, 02:56:14 PM
Here's a graceful website for corpses lovers:

http://www.findagrave.com/
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on June 05, 2007, 03:40:32 PM
Quote from: Doctor_Gradus on June 05, 2007, 02:56:14 PM
Here's a graceful website for corpses lovers:

http://www.findagrave.com/


Interesting site. Thanks for the link  :)
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Churchmouse on May 23, 2011, 12:39:58 AM
Quote from: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 11:18:47 AM
FWIW:

Beethoven's "life-mask", made by Franz Klein in 1812, when the composer was 42 years old.

(http://dienstleistungen.freepage.de/cgi-bin/feets/freepage_ext/41030x030A/rewrite/language/FaceMask1812.jpg)





(http://images.usatoday.com/tech/_photos/2005/12/07/ludwig180.jpg)





I think the skull bones of Beethoven  seems  wider in the head than the death mask.   



.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 02:47:26 AM
What a macabre but gruesomely interesting thread. More skulls and death masks of great (and minor) composers please!
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Churchmouse on May 23, 2011, 03:19:34 AM
Wasn't there studies of lead poisoning done from the bones of the skull? 
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 09:24:32 AM
Oyez! Oyez! Bring out you're dead.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 09:28:40 AM
Quote from: Churchmouse on May 23, 2011, 03:19:34 AM
Wasn't there studies of lead poisoning done from the bones of the skull?

Hair, I thought.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: kishnevi on October 25, 2014, 04:40:16 PM
Bump in honor of Halloween.
Title: Re: Photos of Beethoven and Franz Schubert
Post by: Jo498 on October 26, 2014, 12:50:56 AM
The mask depicted is actually a cast (inverse cast?) of the living Beethoven as said in the post. Of course, there's also a death mask where he looks considerably more... dead?

(http://www.beethoven.li/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/totenmaske-beethoven1.jpg)