Having sorted out (I hope) my Brahms Piano Concerti problem, I'm now faced with a similar quandry over Chopin's pair.
My question to those of you in the know is this: Would this CD (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Piano-Concertos-Nos-2/dp/B00000IWVP/ref=wl_itt_dp/026-3060327-3609237?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1ECXE8GVW73SK&colid=ZX7NMXSN60SW) be a rewarding choice?
Thanks in advance. :)
Can't comment on the Argerich cd Mark.
My personal favourites are Pollini EMI for the 1st & Pogorelich/Abbado DG for the 2nd.
With a word or two for the sublime Rubinstein on RCA for both ;)
No, certainly not. If you want Argerich, you should choose her earlier recording with Abbado.
Unfortunately there isn't a satisfactory recording of both concerti on one CD. My favourites can only be obtained from Japan (Sokolov PC 1) and an old radio broadcast (Pollini PC 2). Many other impressive recordings are in historical sound.
Perhaps someone else has a suggestion for 2 on 1 CD.
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:05:51 PM
No, certainly not.
Your main gripe with this is ... ?
(And thanks, Tony. ;))
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:05:51 PM
No, certainly not. If you want Argerich, you should choose her earlier recording with Abbado.
Unfortunately there isn't a satisfactory recording of both concerti on one CD. My favourites can only be obtained from Japan (Sokolov PC 1) and an old radio broadcast (Pollini PC 2). Many other impressive recordings are in historical sound.
Perhaps someone else has a suggestion for 2 on 1 CD.
I agree, it's horrid. The handling of the orchestral part by Dutoit is particularly dull and Agerich is way off her prime, I'm afraid. However, I take issue with the assertion that a satisfactory recording of both concerti isn't available on one CD. I find this one very satisfactory
http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Piano-Concertos-Nos-2/dp/B00002DE0S/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0746774-0908941?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181257559&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Piano-Concertos-Nos-2/dp/B00002DE0S/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0746774-0908941?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181257559&sr=1-1)
Seeing/hearing #2 performed a few years ago turned me into a true believer ;D
I have two versions;
The Naxos, with Istan Szekely/Budapest Symph/Gyula Nemeth, which I think you've recently got rid of?
and the Rubinstein/New Symph Orches London/Skrowaczewski SACD.
The Rubinstein is the one I reach for but, like you, I'm looking for a more definitive version :)
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 03:07:21 PM
(And thanks, Tony. ;))
You will get a lot of personal recs on this thread Mark, my main reason for liking the Pogorelich 2nd is the sprawling nature of the larghetto, at over 10 minutes.
Its the way I like it done, won't be everyones cup of tea LOL ;D
I doubt most could deny the Pollini its status?....then again?
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on June 07, 2007, 03:12:21 PM
The Naxos, with Istan Szekely/Budapest Symph/Gyula Nemeth, which I think you've recently got rid of?
Couldn't wait to show it the door. Bloody awful! ;D
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 07, 2007, 03:13:13 PM
You will get a lot of personal recs on this thread Mark, my main reason for liking the Pogorelich 2nd is the sprawling nature of the larghetto, at over 10 minutes.
Its the way I like it done, won't be everyones cup of tea LOL ;D
I doubt most could deny the Pollini its status?....then again?
And the sound quality?
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 03:14:02 PM
Couldn't wait to show it the door. Bloody awful! ;D
I did a cd-r from a library copy so no sweat for me there :)
Watching the thread with interest :)
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:05:51 PM
No, certainly not. If you want Argerich, you should choose her earlier recording with Abbado.
Unfortunately there isn't a satisfactory recording of both concerti on one CD. My favourites can only be obtained from Japan (Sokolov PC 1) and an old radio broadcast (Pollini PC 2). Many other impressive recordings are in historical sound.
Perhaps someone else has a suggestion for 2 on 1 CD.
Agree with Dutoit. I got this CD because I liked Argerich on DG, but it is nothing special at all.
I think the best bet for both conerti on the same CD is Hofmann. Mainly for the first, but the second one is also very good. Historical sound of course though, and the orchestra and the conductor have never been positively identified (though believed to be Barbirolli / LSO). This is not sentimental Chopin, but played excellently nevertheless IMO.
(Tony, for Sokolov are you talking Rowicki or Litton? )
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 03:14:50 PM
And the sound quality?
Very good on the Pogorelich, 1983. And the highest end of decent for the Pollini (but sound doesn't matter to me, such is the performance). One you need to hear basically, to judge for oneself.
I still have that Szekely tucked away somewhere too, even if you got shot of yours ;D
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 03:07:21 PM
Your main gripe with this is ... ?
Head-case summed it up quite sanely.
QuoteI find this one very satisfactory
Ugh good god no. That ponderous drawling claptrap? If you want Zimerman, his early live recording of PC 1 with Kondrashin, once on a DG CD, is the one to hear IMO. Still, not a favourite.
QuoteI doubt most could deny the Pollini its status?....then again?
I like his performance of PC 2 much better. It was an early recording from the '60s and he really lets rip. I think I have it around somewhere and could upload it. Drasko knows it.
QuoteI think the best bet for both conerti on the same CD is Hofmann
I'd probably agree with this if pressed, but the historical sound, you know....
Quote(Tony, for Sokolov are you talking Rowicki or Litton? )
Rowicki. http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1215930
The live and much later accounts with Litton and Vasary are very good but the orchestral support from Rowicki is absolutely perfect. Lovely pre-digital sound on it too.
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:21:36 PM
I like his performance of PC 2 much better. It was an early recording from the '60s and he really lets rip. I think I have it around somewhere and could upload it. Drasko knows it.
There would be many takers Tony :D
Thanks to all so far.
Incidentally, I do have the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Kulka/Semkow) on DG with Vasary at the keyboard. Any good?
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 07, 2007, 03:24:00 PM
There would be many takers Tony :D
If Tony can't find it I'll upload it.
Quote from: Drasko on June 07, 2007, 03:29:57 PM
If Tony can't find it I'll upload it.
Cheers, that would be brilliant.
In case I miss the message that Yourself or Tony have uploaded it, would you be kind enough to PM me with the details ;)
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 03:29:26 PM
Incidentally, I do have the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Kulka/Semkow) on DG with Vasary at the keyboard. Any good?
The ones in the DG Trio box? Good performances, lightweight yet poetic. For flair you'd have to listen elsewhere, but back then Vasary had a very lovely touch in Chopin.
QuoteThere would be many takers Tony
I know where it is so I'll try to collect it tomorrow. Will PM.
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:36:11 PM
I know where it is so I'll try to collect it tomorrow. Will PM.
My thanks 8)
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 02:57:51 PM
Having sorted out (I hope) my Brahms Piano Concerti problem, I'm now faced with a similar quandry over Chopin's pair.
My question to those of you in the know is this: Would this CD (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Piano-Concertos-Nos-2/dp/B00000IWVP/ref=wl_itt_dp/026-3060327-3609237?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1ECXE8GVW73SK&colid=ZX7NMXSN60SW) be a rewarding choice?
Thanks in advance. :)
I am going to relisten to my copy, just to make sure before replying. ;)
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:36:11 PM
The ones in the DG Trio box? Good performances, lightweight yet poetic. For flair you'd have to listen elsewhere, but back then Vasary had a very lovely touch in Chopin.
From the original CD transfer, actually - borrowed from the library.
Quote from: Mark on June 07, 2007, 02:57:51 PM
Having sorted out (I hope) my Brahms Piano Concerti problem,
........ ummmmm ......... guess again .........
Quote from: D Minor on June 07, 2007, 03:43:08 PM
........ ummmmm ......... guess again .........
Brett, I knew you'd chime in sooner or later. ;D
Quote from: sidoze on June 07, 2007, 03:21:36 PM
Ugh good god no. That ponderous drawling claptrap? If you want Zimerman, his early live recording of PC 1 with Kondrashin, once on a DG CD, is the one to hear IMO. Still, not a favourite.
Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!
That Zimerman/Polish Festival Orchestra recording is a beaut!
I fully concur with head-case.
Pogorelich's recording is good, too. Despite the presence of Pogorelich! ;D
Chopin concertos are difficult, I think Pires on Erato works for me but not quite, so I will lurk a little and see what comes out.
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2007, 10:47:43 PM
Chopin concertos are difficult, I think Pires on Erato works for me but not quite, so I will lurk a little and see what comes out.
I found them largely inaccessible for a long time. Getting a livlier recording certainly helped. :)
I'm resonably satisfied with my Rubinstein/Barbirolli recordings ('30s), but I haven't found the ideal performances either.
I think balance between piano and orchestra is a big problem in many recordings, maybe a HIP recording could solve that.
BTW, is the Hofmann recording Sidoze and others referred to? (Vai Audio)
(http://homepage1.nifty.com/alkan/discography/hofmann/vaia1002.jpg)
Q
As Que said, for me too the balance Orchestra/Piano is quite a problem, and also the tempi. Being played overly romantic too and blurring the already blurred lines makes it even worse.
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2007, 11:18:24 PM
As Que said, for me too the balance Orchestra/Piano is quite a problem, and also the tempi. Being played overly romantic too and blurring the already blurred lines makes it even worse.
Fully agree with you on this,
Harry.
Q
Quote from: Que on June 07, 2007, 11:09:48 PM
BTW, is the Hofmann recording Sidoze and others referred to? (Vai Audio)
(http://homepage1.nifty.com/alkan/discography/hofmann/vaia1002.jpg)
Yes that's the one. Are you familiar with Hofmann? He's quite different.
Rubinstein's earliest recording of the PCs is my favourite of his and one of the best around IMO (partly because of Barbirolli who was always a superb accompanist). In fact there's a live performance of Rubinstein playing Chopin PC 1, I believe with Barbirolli (can't recall for sure as I no longer have the CD), taken from the early '40s and that one had more drive to it. Naturally it was on a rather obscure CD (Italian I think).
As for PC 2, with Pollini my favourite was Severin Eisenberger, an old, live recording made with a very sloppy Cincinnati Orchestra, released on Pearl. The piano playing is gorgeous though. And Eisenberger was a Leschetizky pupil.
QuoteWrong, wrong, wrong!!!
That Zimerman/Polish Festival Orchestra recording is a beaut!
I refer you to this, especially the "plodding" part :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q7Z9d9x2zQ
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2007, 11:18:24 PM
Being played overly romantic too and blurring the already blurred lines makes it even worse.
If by "overly romantic" you mean slower than normal, I think that works to its advantage (PC 1 for sure anyway). In fact two very young pianists--Sokolov and Lustchevsky (Luszczewski)--recorded it in this slow, poetic (but not heavy -- Zimerman) manner, and it works very, very well IMO. Not to mention it's remarkable for such young pianists (in their 20s at the time) to take such individual and insightful approaches to the music. Zimerman attempts to emulate such an approach but just ends up plodding along. His early recordings, espeically the live one, sound quite natural in comparison.
In any case, the so-called lines usually get blurred when played too quickly, not too slowly. Just listen (if possible) to the clarinets which are supposed to float over the piano in the coda of the 1st movement, PC 1. They're either inaudible or completely blurred almost every time (partly because it's played too quickly and partly because the pianist will usually emphasise his/her part too strongly). The only recording I've heard which really has them float up in the most nostalgic manner is the Sokolov/Rowicki.
Incidentally the Luszczewski recording is on a rather obscure Montblanc CD which apparently comes with that very expensive Chopin fountain pen (which I didn't buy mind you). His discography is here: http://www.raphael.art.pl/cd.htm
Quote from: sidoze on June 08, 2007, 12:36:08 AM
Yes that's the one. Are you familiar with Hofmann? He's quite different.
(http://homepage1.nifty.com/alkan/discography/hofmann/vaia1002.jpg)
I take it the tempos are faster than the norm here? Could someone post the timings?
Quote from: George on June 08, 2007, 03:12:08 AM
I take it the tempos are faster than the norm here? Could someone post the timings?
Tempos are just fine, but they have gone the other route and cut the orchestral introduction (they actually fade it out after a few seconds ;D )
Timings for PC1 is 15, 8.5, and 9 mins
Quote from: sidoze on June 08, 2007, 12:59:22 AM
If by "overly romantic" you mean slower than normal, I think that works to its advantage (PC 1 for sure anyway). In fact two very young pianists--Sokolov and Lustchevsky (Luszczewski)--recorded it in this slow, poetic (but not heavy -- Zimerman) manner, and it works very, very well IMO. Not to mention it's remarkable for such young pianists (in their 20s at the time) to take such individual and insightful approaches to the music. Zimerman attempts to emulate such an approach but just ends up plodding along. His early recordings, espeically the live one, sound quite natural in comparison.
In any case, the so-called lines usually get blurred when played too quickly, not too slowly. Just listen (if possible) to the clarinets which are supposed to float over the piano in the coda of the 1st movement, PC 1. They're either inaudible or completely blurred almost every time (partly because it's played too quickly and partly because the pianist will usually emphasise his/her part too strongly). The only recording I've heard which really has them float up in the most nostalgic manner is the Sokolov/Rowicki.
Incidentally the Luszczewski recording is on a rather obscure Montblanc CD which apparently comes with that very expensive Chopin fountain pen (which I didn't buy mind you). His discography is here: http://www.raphael.art.pl/cd.htm
Very interesting,
Tony, thanks.
Quote from: orbital on June 08, 2007, 06:47:42 AM
Tempos are just fine, but they have gone the other route and cut the orchestral introduction (they actually fade it out after a few seconds ;D )
Timings for PC1 is 15, 8.5, and 9 mins
Thanks. :)
Quote from: sidoze on June 08, 2007, 12:36:08 AM
I refer you to this, especially the "plodding" part :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q7Z9d9x2zQ
Where you see black and white I see only color! ;D
Looks like everyone has agreed on Zimerman ........ well, good then ........
You think? Not going NEAR Zimerman after that Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 with Rattle/BPO.
Quote from: Mark on June 08, 2007, 05:09:51 PM
You think? Not going NEAR Zimerman after that Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 with Rattle/BPO.
Well, in that case, I will go to great lengths to ensure that you get a copy of the
Zimerman ........ >:D
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 07, 2007, 03:02:25 PM
Can't comment on the Argerich cd Mark.
My personal favourites are Pollini EMI for the 1st & Pogorelich/Abbado DG for the 2nd.
With a word or two for the sublime Rubinstein on RCA for both ;)
Tony,
I agree on Pollini/Kletzki, but my choice for the second is Zimerman/Giulini/Los Angeles.
Kindest regards.
Since you have not made up your mind yet, I thought I confuse you just a bit more >:D
Most people have problems with the orchestration of the concerti (particularly the 1st), although I don't see what the problem exactly is (except that they are not very interesting), if you share this concern I could perhaps point you into two directions
1 - Different orchestration: There are two re-orchestrations of the 1st concerto. One by Tausig (which I have a recording of, and I much prefer it to the original, but unforunately the only release of this version by [I think] Harmonia Mundi is nowhere to be found), the other by Balakirev. Now, Gulda plays this version on his GPOC. The tuttis are not very different than the original. Actually the only major difference I could dedect was that the brass section is pumped up a bit. The playing on this recording is a little hurried (1st movement in undr 19 mins) but not bad.
2 - Chamber Version (ducks from Drasko's wrath >:D ).I know this is a concerto and it needs an orchestra, composers wishes, intentions, horn calls and all that, but this version has one of the best Chopin playing I've heard:
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/24/249813.JPG)
It may not be a PC per se, but it is damn good music, and after a while that's all that matters.
Quote from: orbital on June 08, 2007, 06:02:14 PM
2 - Chamber Version (ducks from Drasko's wrath >:D ).I know this is a concerto and it needs an orchestra, composers wishes, intentions, horn calls and all that, but this version has one of the best Chopin playing I've heard:
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/24/249813.JPG)
It may not be a PC per se, but it is damn good music, and after a while that's all that matters.
Me needs to hear that one. :)
Quote from: Mark on June 08, 2007, 05:09:51 PM
You think? Not going NEAR Zimerman after that Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 with Rattle/BPO.
Mark,
Don't let a bad experience with the Brahms disc sour you on this Chopin recording.
Sometimes performers don't know when to leave well enough alone and get a little too ambitious, delving into territory best left untouched.
Maybe, when all's said and done, Brahms simply didn't suit Zimerman's palette, or maybe Rattle sunk the ship, or whatever. Can't say for sure but I DO know that clunkers happen even to the best of performers with the best of intentions.
Now, I haven't heard this Zimerman/Brahms recording in its entirety so can't give detailed remarks but whatever bad traits might inhibit this disc don't inhibit this beautifully organic Chopin set.
The one thing I like about this Chopin set is the positioning of the piano in sympathetic opposition to the orchestra. IOW, this isn't a trapeze-act, virtuoso whirlwind of pianistic wizardry fired off in complete indifference to the orchestra. The piano is perfectly positioned to build off the orchestra, and vice versa. Both sides feed off each other in a poetic give and take that make the musical argument something quite characterful, not to mention colorful, etc...
In fact, I'd bet it's this very eschewing of piano pyrotechnics (in favor of poetry) that rubs Tony (Sidoze) the wrong way (yes/no, Tony? :)).
In comparison, Pogorelich's recording of the 2nd PC lacks the poetic integration of forces and hence loses out a bit for me (but is still a tour de force!!).
Anyway, the Zimerman is all beautifully done to these ears and makes such musical magic I, well, don't mind recommending it!
Oh, and it's sumptuously recorded, too...
Donwyn, thank you for that assessment. :)
Orbital, I'm already a step ahead of you - I have this: Chopin Piano Concerti (Chamber Versions) (http://www.emusic.com/album/Janina-Fialkowska-the-Chamber-Players-of-Canada-Chopin-Piano-Concertos-chamber-version-MP3-Download/10979492.html). The one you cited is also on eMusic, so I can try that out, too. :)
Quote from: Mark on June 09, 2007, 01:02:58 AM
Donwyn, thank you for that assessment. :)
Yeah, right ........ it doesn't matter what anyone says ........ You've already been poisoned against
Zimerman >:D
Quote from: D Minor on June 09, 2007, 04:04:43 AM
Yeah, right ........ it doesn't matter what anyone says ........ You've already been poisoned against Zimerman >:D
Not necessarily. I did copy that Rattle/BPO/Zimerman CD before returning it to the library. I might yet be persuaded. :)
Quote from: donwyn on June 08, 2007, 08:02:36 PM
In fact, I'd bet it's this very eschewing of piano pyrotechnics (in favor of poetry) that rubs Tony (Sidoze) the wrong way (yes/no, Tony? :)).
No.
Speaking of both works on one disc, I forgot about Rosenthal's recording of PC 1, the one I like most with Sokolov's. It's now on a single CD with Hofmann's PC 2.
http://www.altaramusic.com/html/more_info12.html
It used to be available on Pearl but that's OOP.
Quote from: Mark on June 09, 2007, 01:02:58 AM
Donwyn, thank you for that assessment. :)
Orbital, I'm already a step ahead of you - I have this: Chopin Piano Concerti (Chamber Versions) (http://www.emusic.com/album/Janina-Fialkowska-the-Chamber-Players-of-Canada-Chopin-Piano-Concertos-chamber-version-MP3-Download/10979492.html). The one you cited is also on eMusic, so I can try that out, too. :)
I got that one too, based on the fact that Rubinstein thought very highly of her. But I prefer Shiraga on BIS. I'd say go for it, but only if you like the chamber concept of course.
Quote from: orbital on June 09, 2007, 11:07:58 AM
I got that one too, based on the fact that Rubinstein thought very highly of her. But I prefer Shiraga on BIS. I'd say go for it, but only if you like the chamber concept of course.
I love the chamber versions, so that's a no-brainer, thanks. ;)
;)
I gave my Argerich/Dutoit recording of the 2 PCs today.
I can say that my mind wandered off when the orchestra played and each time Argerich appeared it was like a double shot of expresso. I say it's worth it just to hear her beautiful tone and the infectious excitement in her playing. The orchestral part is always a bore anyway, so to me, it's all about the pianist. And I still have no want or need to hear anyone else play these works. This is from a guy who has 8 sets of the Nocturnes. :)
Mark, its DDD, need I say more? ;D
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
I gave my Argerich/Dutoit recording of the 2 PCs today.
I can say that my mind wandered off when the orchestra played and each time Argerich appeared it was like a double shot of expresso. I say it's worth it just to hear her beautiful tone and the infectious excitement in her playing. The orchestral part is always a bore anyway, so to me, it's all about the pianist. And I still have no want or need to hear anyone else play these works. This is from a guy who has 8 sets of the Nocturnes. :)
Mark, its DDD, need I say more? ;D
Keep talking, George, keep talking. :)
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
The orchestral part is always a bore anyway, so to me, it's all about the pianist.
That's precisely why I keep harping on the Zimerman set!! 0:)
In Zimerman's hands we get the best of both worlds: orchestra as a vital, interactive entity, and piano as leading force.
It's the full concerto treatment! Nothing inconsequential.
Quote from: donwyn on June 09, 2007, 07:28:33 PM
That's precisely why I keep harping on the Zimerman set!! 0:)
In Zimerman's hands we get the best of both worlds: orchestra as a vital, interactive entity, and piano as leading force.
It's the full concerto treatment! Nothing inconsequential.
Someday I'll hear it. We've agreed on enough things to make me take notice when you suggest things. :)
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 07:58:47 PM
Someday I'll hear it. We've agreed on enough things to make me take notice when you suggest things. :)
Ditto, my friend!
Quote from: donwyn on June 09, 2007, 07:28:33 PM
In Zimerman's hands we get the best of both worlds: orchestra as a vital, interactive entity, and piano as leading force.
There are other recordings in which the orchestra plays the same vital, interactive role, all without the gross highlighting and heavy-handed "look what I'm doing, it's so beautiful" approach which Zimerman takes. It's a type of bloated Pre-Raphaelite poetry which I don't like much.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TTTEB338L._AA240_.jpg)
Well, this is an obviously controversial recording.
Whether someone like this or not depends on individual preference.
But, especially in Concerto No.1, this is so amazing album.
Somebody can dislike these butter-like orchestration,
No one can ever play the orchestration part brightfully like this recording.
Also, Zimerman's playing is perfect, I think. Particularly in 3rd movement of No.1,
his articulation and tone is so colorful, and fulfilled with elaborated rubatos.
If I have to choose just 1 Chopin PC recordings, maybe I pick this. :)
Good. Another vote for Zimerman.
Let's keep fighting this out until we have solid consensus .......... >:D
Another vote for the Zimerman.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TTTEB338L._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: sidoze on June 10, 2007, 01:37:58 AM
There are other recordings in which the orchestra plays the same vital, interactive role, all without the gross highlighting and heavy-handed "look what I'm doing, it's so beautiful" approach which Zimerman takes. It's a type of bloated Pre-Raphaelite poetry which I don't like much.
Yes, but I also love Martha Argerich, so tastes will differ. The Zimerman floats my boat.
Quote from: Bunny on June 10, 2007, 05:24:12 AM
Yes, but I also love Martha Argerich, so tastes will differ. The Zimerman floats my boat.
Which Argerich Bunny?
Quote from: Bunny on June 10, 2007, 05:24:12 AM
The Zimerman floats my boat.
Have you heard his other recordings of the works?
Berezovsky seems to be playing both concertos a lot lately. If he plans to record them that would be interesting.
Quote from: George on June 09, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
I can say that my mind wandered off when the orchestra played and each time Argerich appeared it was like a double shot of expresso. I say it's worth it just to hear her beautiful tone and the infectious excitement in her playing. The orchestral part is always a bore anyway, so to me, it's all about the pianist.
That is exactly why you should avoid that one. She got absolutely stellar accompaniment from Abbado in her first recording (DG).
Quote from: Drasko on June 10, 2007, 08:41:32 AM
That is exactly why you should avoid that one. She got absolutely stellar accompaniment from Abbado in her first recording (DG).
Agreed. Though my copy is a little flawed. The Maestoso starts from 3-4 seconds in, stops then reenters from the beginning, and there are a few spots where the bpm almost drops for a second or two in the first five minutes.
Quote from: George on June 10, 2007, 05:50:41 AM
Which Argerich Bunny?
Just Argerich in general. Ít was a feeble attempt at a joke as there are a number of people around who can't stand her in any repertory.
Just to modify -- I do have the recording with Dutoit, but although I like Martha a great deal, the recording does nothing for me. I much prefer the Zimerman, it just agrees with me more. I will say that generally, I don't find either of the Chopin piano concertos among my high favorites, and would rather listen to the solo piano music most of the time.
Quote from: sidoze on June 10, 2007, 06:03:53 AM
Have you heard his other recordings of the works?
To clarify: I have a number of recordings of Zimerman doing Chopin, and have heard him in concert as well, but I only have the one (later) recording of the pano concertos by him. I have
heard the earlier recording with Giulini but it's not in my collection so I haven't heard it in years. It wasn't something I went out to buy at the time so I must not have cared for it that much.
Quote from: Bunny on June 10, 2007, 10:21:15 AM
Just Argerich in general.
Would that include this disc with Slava?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HG4YKWSWL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Mark on June 10, 2007, 12:02:15 PM
Would that include this disc with Slava?
Yes, that disc is also quite memorable. While both concerti are well-played, the Second is good enough for a reference.
Quote from: Bunny on June 10, 2007, 10:22:02 AM
I have heard the earlier recording with Giulini but it's not in my collection so I haven't heard it in years. It wasn't something I went out to buy at the time so I must not have cared for it that much.
You might not have cared for it, Bunny, but I certainly do. :)
Yes, people: I bought the Zimerman. The first Zimerman, that is, with the LAPO/Giulini from 1986. Was going to get it from Amazon ... then saw that the only copy available was from a seller asking £30 for it. Not likely.
So I went against my creed, and downloaded it from Universal's site (https://www.classicsandjazz.co.uk/ucj/tssite/homepage.do?ruleset=release&id=50028512), which is where I heard enough of it to know it was for me. Of course, this meant parting with good money for DRM-infected WMA files (>:(). But hey, I'll just burn the tracks to CD-R and that's that little problem taken care of. ;D
I sampled the other Zimerman recording (https://www.classicsandjazz.co.uk/ucj/tssite/homepage.do?ruleset=release&id=50386604), but quite frankly, it sounded awful. Like he'd "done a Vengerov*" on it. No, thanks. His earlier performance is much more my style. And at least this way, he redeems himself a little after that appalling mess he and Rattle made of the Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1.
Thanks to all for the suggestions here. George, I'll probably give that Dutoit/Argerich disc a shot, too. Unless anyone can point me in the direction of her earlier recording with Abbado, whom I greatly prefer to Dutoit. Thanks in advance. :)
*A phrase of my own devising. I've heard three Vengerov CDs - hated them all. The man doesn't just play the music; he's got to mess with tempi, or add unnecessary 'artistic' flourishes (or so it sounds to these ears). I get wound up listening to him murder whatever he's interpreting - pulling it all out of f***ing shape - that I've made a promise to myself to NEVER buy another Vengerov disc. >:(
Oh yeah ... almost forgot.
Decided to download something from Classics Online (http://www.classicsonline.com) (just to see how the ordering/downloading process works), and I chose this recording of Chopin's Piano Concerto No. 2 (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=225890).
Truth to tell, not a threat to any of the recordings so far mentioned. But you know what? I like it - despite the ludicrously bright sonics, far-too-far-forward piano placement and the dodgy sound editing. ;D
Hey, gimme a break. Only cost me £5.
Quote from: Mark on June 10, 2007, 02:40:20 PM
Thanks to all for the suggestions here. George, I'll probably give that Dutoit/Argerich disc a shot, too. Unless anyone can point me in the direction of her earlier recording with Abbado, whom I greatly prefer to Dutoit. Thanks in advance. :)
Argerich's recording of the Chopin's 1st concerto with Abbado is in this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Liszt-Concertos-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B000001GS1) direction.
Quote from: Drasko on June 10, 2007, 09:14:33 PM
Argerich's recording of the Chopin's 1st concerto with Abbado is in this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chopin-Liszt-Concertos-Fryderyk-Franciszek/dp/B000001GS1) direction.
Thanks, Drasko. I'd found that one already but discarded it because it's not a pairing of both of Chopin's concerti, which is what I'm after. :)
Pollini playing Chopin's PC 2: http://download.yousendit.com/32E78D794E18254B
Quote from: Mark on June 10, 2007, 02:40:20 PMI sampled the other Zimerman recording (https://www.classicsandjazz.co.uk/ucj/tssite/homepage.do?ruleset=release&id=50386604), but quite frankly, it sounded awful. Like he'd "done a Vengerov*" on it.
Nice way of putting it. Can I license that from you? :)
The Blumental is a good recording but rather forgettable when heard before or after the Pollini I just linked. That label released a huge amount of CDs devoted to her. My impression is that they're trying to pass her off as an unjustly forgotten Polish master-pianist. She's very good of course, but not quite that really.
Quote from: sidoze on June 11, 2007, 12:08:19 PM
Pollini playing Chopin's PC 2: http://download.yousendit.com/32E78D794E18254B
Thanks Tony! :)
Quote from: Mark on June 10, 2007, 12:02:15 PM
Would that include this disc with Slava?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HG4YKWSWL._SS500_.jpg)
I haven't heard that one. This is one of those times when I really regret the demise of Tower. If it were still around I could go down and see if they have a copy available to listen to. I know the library doesn't have a copy.
Unless that's the earlier recording I heard years and years ago? I never saw the cover of that so it may be the one I heard. As I said, I have the Dutoit recording which is great Martha but not great Dutoit and orchestra.
No. I'm pretty sure that I haven't heard that one. I'm relatively sure that the early recording I have in mind is the Giulini. In any event, my memory is such that I could only say that the ones I'm reasonably sure of knowing are the Dutoit recording and the Zimerman recording which is my preferred recording of the work. Oh and an HIP version of the second concerto.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YAFEF9SWL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Bunny on June 11, 2007, 02:13:54 PM
I haven't heard that one. This is one of those times when I really regret the demise of Tower. If it were still around I could go down and see if they have a copy available to listen to. I know the library doesn't have a copy.
Unless that's the earlier recording I heard years and years ago? I never saw the cover of that so it may be the one I heard. As I said, I have the Dutoit recording which is great Martha but not great Dutoit and orchestra.
That picture is of japanese release, so unlikely to find it in a library.
But it consists of '68 first Concerto with Abbado available on DG Originals and '78 Second Concerto with Rostropovich available (if) on DG Galleria, or both toghether in 4CD Argerich box of various concertos.
Quote from: Drasko on June 11, 2007, 02:20:11 PM
That picture is of japanese release, so unlikely to find it in a library.
But it consists of '68 first Concerto with Abbado available on DG Originals and '78 Second Concerto with Rostropovich available (if) on DG Galleria, or both toghether in 4CD Argerich box of various concertos.
Okay! I know the concerto box, but don't have it. I know I heard some early Martha recording of the concertos but as I don't own it, can't really say exactly what it was. I do remember that after hearing the recording, I didn't go out to buy it for some reason or another. But isn't there a recording with Giulini? For some reason I keep thinking I heard her doing one or both of the concertos with Giulini, not Rostropovich nor Abbado.
There is always this one:
-OK, I wasn't very busy today :-[ :-[
The picture isn't very good; translation, please. 0:)
Quote from: sidoze on June 11, 2007, 12:12:00 PM
Nice way of putting it. Can I license that from you? :)
With pleasure! ;D
Quote from: Bunny on June 11, 2007, 02:56:32 PM
The picture isn't very good; translation, please. 0:)
Chopin
Piano Concertos
Grigory Ginzburg
(I don't get to read)
Leningrad Symphony (?) Orchestra.
Kindest regards.
Quote from: Botafogo on June 11, 2007, 07:23:35 PM
Chopin
Piano Concertos
Grigory Ginzburg
(I don't get to read)
Leningrad Symphony (?) Orchestra.
Kindest regards.
Amazing :o
Except it does not really exist. I was bored a little :-*
Quote from: orbital on June 11, 2007, 07:28:05 PM
Amazing :o
Except it does not really exist. I was bored a little :-*
Just curious: what's the word below Grigory Ginzburg?
Rgds.
Markevitch $:)
Is there something I don't know? I keep thinking Gilels when I think about Chopin PC1 - and yet no one has so much as breathed his name on this thread yet. Is it thought of as that bad a recording? ??? ??? Is it because Ormandy is involved? (He doesn't do so badly, I think!). It's always sounded pretty special to my ears - Gilels works a certain magic here to make it much more than 'another great concerto performance'. I may be reading more into it - when I was a boy my dad would rhapsodise to me about the first time he heard that LP and years later, warped and unplayable, it still had a place in his LP collection. But trying to put that aside, it still seems at least to rank among the better recordings I've heard.
Am I that misguided? ??? ;D
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 01:23:26 AM
Is there something I don't know? I keep thinking Gilels when I think about Chopin PC1 - and yet no one has so much as breathed his name on this thread yet. Is it thought of as that bad a recording? ??? ??? Is it because Ormandy is involved? (He doesn't do so badly, I think!). It's always sounded pretty special to my ears - Gilels works a certain magic here to make it much more than 'another great concerto performance'. I may be reading more into it - when I was a boy my dad would rhapsodise to me about the first time he heard that LP and years later, warped and unplayable, it still had a place in his LP collection. But trying to put that aside, it still seems at least to rank among the better recordings I've heard.
Am I that misguided? ??? ;D
Does Luke always talk to himself ? >:D
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 03:55:10 AM
Does Luke always talk to himself ? >:D
Who you talking to, D?
Although, yes, I do get that feeling very often. The essence of omphaloskepsis, you know....
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 01:23:26 AM
Is there something I don't know? I keep thinking Gilels when I think about Chopin PC1 - and yet no one has so much as breathed his name on this thread yet. Is it thought of as that bad a recording? ??? ??? Is it because Ormandy is involved? (He doesn't do so badly, I think!). It's always sounded pretty special to my ears - Gilels works a certain magic here to make it much more than 'another great concerto performance'. I may be reading more into it - when I was a boy my dad would rhapsodise to me about the first time he heard that LP and years later, warped and unplayable, it still had a place in his LP collection. But trying to put that aside, it still seems at least to rank among the better recordings I've heard.
Am I that misguided? ??? ;D
Nope, I plan to snatch that one up the next time I see it used. Thanks. :)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 01:23:26 AM
Is there something I don't know? I keep thinking Gilels when I think about Chopin PC1 - and yet no one has so much as breathed his name on this thread yet. Is it thought of as that bad a recording? ??? ??? Is it because Ormandy is involved? (He doesn't do so badly, I think!). It's always sounded pretty special to my ears - Gilels works a certain magic here to make it much more than 'another great concerto performance'. I may be reading more into it - when I was a boy my dad would rhapsodise to me about the first time he heard that LP and years later, warped and unplayable, it still had a place in his LP collection. But trying to put that aside, it still seems at least to rank among the better recordings I've heard.
Am I that misguided? ??? ;D
He's also on Melodiya with Kondrashin conducting from 1962 ;)
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 12, 2007, 07:12:47 AM
He's also on Melodiya with Kondrashin conducting from 1962 ;)
Saw that box this morning for $150. :o
Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 07:14:18 AM
Saw that box this morning for $150. :o
Crikey, certainly didn't pay that much for it! (£25 off ebay)
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 12, 2007, 07:20:23 AM
Crikey, certainly didn't pay that much for it! (£25 off ebay)
[insert envy emoticon here]
Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 07:22:46 AM
[insert envy emoticon here]
:)
I always buy my Russian stuff from Victor Dublier, George. He's still got both sets at the same price I bought them last year. I'm sure he ships all over the world...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GILELS-5CD-BOX-Art-of-Gilels-MELODIYA-NEW_W0QQitemZ110036365651QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem
The Chopin PC1 is in this box:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GILELS-Recitals-of-1962-MELODIYA-5CD-BOX-NEW_W0QQitemZ110022678186QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem
Quote from: SimonGodders on June 12, 2007, 07:28:11 AM
:)
I always buy my Russian stuff from Victor Dublier, George. He's still got both sets at the same price I bought them last year. I'm sure he ships all over the world...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GILELS-5CD-BOX-Art-of-Gilels-MELODIYA-NEW_W0QQitemZ110036365651QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem
The Chopin PC1 is in this box:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GILELS-Recitals-of-1962-MELODIYA-5CD-BOX-NEW_W0QQitemZ110022678186QQihZ001QQcategoryZ307QQcmdZViewItem
How's the rest of the box?
George, who is already so poor he can't even pay attention at this point. :-[
Isn't that Chopin PC 1 with Kondrashin also in Brilliant box?
Anyhow here is the single disc, and you can listen to whole thing online.
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35614&genreid= (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35614&genreid=)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 01:23:26 AM
Is there something I don't know? I keep thinking Gilels when I think about Chopin PC1 - and yet no one has so much as breathed his name on this thread yet. Is it thought of as that bad a recording? ??? ??? Is it because Ormandy is involved? (He doesn't do so badly, I think!). It's always sounded pretty special to my ears - Gilels works a certain magic here to make it much more than 'another great concerto performance'. I may be reading more into it - when I was a boy my dad would rhapsodise to me about the first time he heard that LP and years later, warped and unplayable, it still had a place in his LP collection. But trying to put that aside, it still seems at least to rank among the better recordings I've heard.
Am I that misguided? ??? ;D
I haven't heard this one but used to have the Gilels / Kondrashin in the Brilliant box. What can I say? It's just not what I want to hear in this work, though no doubt it's very good. I should send you the Sokolov recording for curiosity's sake.
Of course I can't play the Chopin PC 1, so for all I know, Gilels' could be very special indeed.
(the above in no way passes Zimerman's solo plodding as fit for measure)
And thanks for the new word: omphaloskepsis
Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 07:30:22 AM
How's the rest of the box?
George, who is already so poor he can't even pay attention at this point. :-[
I'ld like to give you a definitive answer, but bought both sets about this time last year and still haven't got through all discs, maybe half :-\
I have enjoyed all that I have listened to thus far (great Beethoven, partic. WoO 80 Variations and a gorgeous Chopin Ballade in G minor), but then I am a Gilels 'aficionado'...
The aforementioned Chopin PC1 I haven't listened to, despite my love of Chopin, never been particularly struck by his orchestral music. Perhaps I'll give it a whizz in a jiffy...
Quote from: Drasko on June 12, 2007, 07:33:05 AM
Isn't that Chopin PC 1 with Kondrashin also in Brilliant box?
Anyhow here is the single disc, and you can listen to whole thing online.
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35614&genreid= (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35614&genreid=)
No idea. I haven't bought the Brilliant box on this premise - that I may duplicate quite a bit if purchased. I really need to compare the two Melodiya sets sometime with the Brilliant box...time...need more time.... :-\
Quote from: Drasko on June 12, 2007, 07:33:05 AM
Isn't that Chopin PC 1 with Kondrashin also in Brilliant box?
Anyhow here is the single disc, and you can listen to whole thing online.
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35614&genreid= (http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=35614&genreid=)
Thanks! :D
Just thought I'd bring this thread to a close (and full circle) by posting that I got a great deal from an Amazon seller on an unopened copy of this:
(http://inkeehong.com/articles/image/Argerich_Dutoit_Chopin_Piano_Concertos.jpg)
... so I'm done (for now) with my search for Chopin Piano Concerti performances.
And my initial impressions? That's quite an entrance Argerich makes in the First Concerto's opening movement. Yes, I think I'm going to like this. :)
Thanks to all for the recommendations ... and to George in particular for suggesting (ages ago) the one I eventually went for. ;)
::)
;D