GMG Classical Music Forum

My vote (not surprisingly) goes to Mozart's rather unknown genius mass in c minor.

Gotta go with LvB.

One from a work not even on the list:  Bruckner's E minor Mass.  One of the most hauntingly beautiful compositions ever--and that's not something I say without really meaning it! :D

Uh, Ein deutsches Requiem has no Kyrie, at least not in the recording I've got... ;)

Quote from: jochanaan on June 07, 2007, 06:15:19 PM
One from a work not even on the list:  Bruckner's E minor Mass.  One of the most hauntingly beautiful compositions ever--and that's not something I say without really meaning it! :D

Uh, Ein deutsches Requiem has no Kyrie, at least not in the recording I've got... ;)

Hmmm I thought every mass had to have a kyrie?

Quote from: Mozart on June 07, 2007, 07:06:25 PM
Hmmm I thought every mass had to have a kyrie?

English masses usually come without a Kyrie (a tradition going back since the middle ages). As far as i know, the English are the only ones to do this.

Quote from: Mozart on June 07, 2007, 07:06:25 PM
Hmmm I thought every mass had to have a kyrie?

The liturgy of the Mass (i.e., the actual religious ceremonies going on, not the music) has the Kyrie, following the penitential rite (Confiteor), but there is no requirement that it be set to music. Now, in Masses according to the 1975 (now 2000/2) Missale Romanum, there is a choice, with the Kyrie and penitential rite being one and the same. So, every Mass has a Kyrie, one way or another, but not necessarily one set to music.

A second for the Bruckner E minor Mass Kyrie, for the same reasons.

Quote from: Mozart on June 07, 2007, 07:06:25 PM
Hmmm I thought every mass had to have a kyrie?

But Brahms' German Requiem is not a Catholic Mass.  Brahms uses German Scriptures to create an entirely new Requiem text.

The German Requiem's first movement sings, "Selig sind, die da Leid tragen..."  Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.  (Matthew 5:4)  Brahms goes on to set various Scriptural texts, both canonical and apocryphal.  (As a Protestant Christian, I actually prefer these texts to the traditional Catholic Mass, especially the sixth movement's text that looks forward to the resurrection of all the blessed dead as described in Revelation.)

When Harnoncourt does it, my favorite is from Haydn's Missa in Tempore Belli "Paukenmesse." The sharp accents, the startlingly thunderous drums and slower than normal tempo give it a weight, solemnity and significance that's lacking in other versions I've heard. Harnoncourt relates it to the horror and pity of war far more than any other conductor.

Sarge

Quote from: jochanaan on June 08, 2007, 03:45:44 PM
But Brahms' German Requiem is not a Catholic Mass.  Brahms uses German Scriptures to create an entirely new Requiem text.

The German Requiem's first movement sings, "Selig sind, die da Leid tragen..."  Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.  (Matthew 5:4)  Brahms goes on to set various Scriptural texts, both canonical and apocryphal.  (As a Protestant Christian, I actually prefer these texts to the traditional Catholic Mass, especially the sixth movement's text that looks forward to the resurrection of all the blessed dead as described in Revelation.)

Well, Fauré's Requiem setting is nice, and very much along those lines, too. Without the Dies irae and the Confutatis maledictis, it concentrates more on the redemption and eternal rest bit. Still, I prefer my Mass to have a little fire along with the creamy parts.

Quote from: jochanaan on June 07, 2007, 06:15:19 PM
One from a work not even on the list:  Bruckner's E minor Mass.  One of the most hauntingly beautiful compositions ever--and that's not something I say without really meaning it! :D

Uh, Ein deutsches Requiem has no Kyrie, at least not in the recording I've got... ;)

PSmith08 or Jochanaan, would you recommend a recording for the Bruckner E minor Mass?

Quote from: Mozart on June 07, 2007, 04:19:39 PM
My vote (not surprisingly) goes to Mozart's rather unknown genius mass in c minor.

The Bruckner is indeed hauntingly beautiful, but I take my hat off to Mozart on this one.  :)

Quote from: Anne on June 08, 2007, 06:25:59 PM
PSmith08 or Jochanaan, would you recommend a recording for the Bruckner E minor Mass?

I don't see how you could go wrong with the Eugen Jochum recording of the three Masses. It has been a reference recording for quite a while. I, though, am about equally partial to Daniel Barenboim's 1970s recordings of Masses 2 and 3 on EMI. Helmuth Rilling's 1998 recording on Hänssler got some good press at the time, and is a pretty solid recording, too. I guess I am just a fan of Jochum's Bruckner, not only in the Masses, but also his recordings of the motets and the Te Deum.

So, to recap: Jochum would be my first choice, followed by Barenboim and Rilling; however, they're all pretty good and you could do worse than any of them.

Thank you.  Much appreciated.

Bach of course.

Pretty useless poll, since what I would consider Mozart's finest Kyrie (from the Requiem) is not listed, neither are either of the Kyrie from Bach's mass in b-minor, and I don't think BWV 252 even has a Kyrie.   ???

Quote from: head-case on June 11, 2007, 09:27:08 AM
Pretty useless poll, since what I would consider Mozart's finest Kyrie (from the Requiem) is not listed, neither are either of the Kyrie from Bach's mass in b-minor, and I don't think BWV 252 even has a Kyrie.   ???

Maybe it was a typo and Mozart meant BMV232? ???

In which case, that gets my vote :).

Quote from: Novitiate on June 11, 2007, 12:18:15 PM
Maybe it was a typo and Mozart meant BMV232? ???

In which case, that gets my vote :).

Yea was about to point that out.

And I choose the Bach too. It's one of my all time favourite movements and I think one of the greatest fugues (choral or not) ever written. So beautiful!

;D

Quote from: Norbeone on June 11, 2007, 12:47:07 PM
Yea was about to point that out.

And I choose the Bach too. It's one of my all time favourite movements and I think one of the greatest fugues (choral or not) ever written. So beautiful!

;D

The first or the second Kyrie from the mass in h?

Might have voted for the Berlioz . . . but even more, from the Stravinsky Mass.

I voted for other:


(http://cache.idolator.com/assets/resources/2006/10/broken.jpg)


;D  ;D  ;D

Some other is more other than others, George  8)

Quote from: head-case on June 11, 2007, 01:17:20 PM
The first or the second Kyrie from the mass in h?

Sorry, that would be the first Kyrie. Though, I love the second also.

Quote from: PSmith08 on June 08, 2007, 04:10:13 PM
...Still, I prefer my Mass to have a little fire along with the creamy parts.

Oh, the German Requiem has plenty of fire in the second, third and (especially) sixth movements. :D

It's got to be Beethoven's Missa Solemnis for me. I adore all the Kyries on the list, but my favorite chorale work remains this particular mass. It gets better each time I hear it, and I have loved it for quite awhile now.

I know that it's overall doubtful that Beethoven was Catholic, and there are doubts that he was even Christian. However, I can't think of anyone, baptized (as LvB was) or not, whom could compose a work that makes an RC such as myself feel more Affirmed, inspired, and awed with each listen.

Quote from: jochanaan on June 12, 2007, 02:30:12 PM
Oh, the German Requiem has plenty of fire in the second, third and (especially) sixth movements. :D

I agree. A tremendous work, consistently rewarding with plenty of different emotions expressed. One of Brahms' best, imho.

Quote from: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 02:52:09 PM
It's got to be Beethoven's Missa Solemnis for me. I adore all the Kyries on the list, but my favorite chorale work remains this particular mass. It gets better each time I hear it, and I have loved it for quite awhile now.

I know that it's overall doubtful that Beethoven was Catholic, and there are doubts that he was even Christian. However, I can't think of anyone, baptized (as LvB was) or not, whom could compose a work that makes an RC such as myself feel more Affirmed, inspired, and awed with each listen.

I thought I recently read that he had been raised as a Catholic but just didn't go to church but did adhere to the tenets.

My favorite Kyrie is also MS especially the way Karl Bohm conducts it.  Like you I love it more each time I hear it.

No votes for Joe Green's requiem?

Quote from: Mozart on June 12, 2007, 11:16:33 PM
No votes for Joe Green's requiem?

That was a tough one for me to "overlook" when voting. I always thought that one of the worse judgements that Richard Wagner ever made was when he disparaged Verdi's Requiem. But then, as a person Wagner wasn't prone to great critical judgements, was he?

Is your favorite part from Verdi's Requiem the Dies Irae? (it's mine, but it's all pretty damn incredible).

The best of the Verdi does not lie in that first movement, so it garners little support.

As to the Missa Solemnis, here is a link to the old site where we discussed Beethoven's possible beliefs...amongst other things.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13021.0.html

Mike

Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 06:08:16 AM
The best of the Verdi does not lie in that first movement, so it garners little support.

Okay.

Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 06:08:16 AM

As to the Missa Solemnis, here is a link to the old site where we discussed Beethoven's possible beliefs...amongst other things.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13021.0.html

Mike

Thank you.

Quote from: Anne on June 12, 2007, 06:26:50 PM
My favorite Kyrie is also MS especially the way Karl Bohm conducts it.  Like you I love it more each time I hear it.

Is that the one with Margaret Price, Christa Ludwig, Wieslaw Ochmann, Martti Talvela, the Konzartvereingung Wiener Staatsopernchor, and the Vienna Philharmonic?  Yeah, that's gotta be one of the great recordings of all time. :D

Quote from: Anne on June 12, 2007, 06:26:50 PM
I thought I recently read that he had been raised as a Catholic but just didn't go to church but did adhere to the tenets.

My favorite Kyrie is also MS especially the way Karl Bohm conducts it.  Like you I love it more each time I hear it.

The benchmark recording of this piece may be the Fricsay with Maria Stader.

Quote from: Haffner on June 13, 2007, 04:14:34 AM



That was a tough one for me to "overlook" when voting. I always thought that one of the worse judgements that Richard Wagner ever made was when he disparaged Verdi's Requiem. But then, as a person Wagner wasn't prone to great critical judgements, was he?

Is your favorite part from Verdi's Requiem the Dies Irae? (it's mine, but it's all pretty damn incredible).

Yea Wagner sucks. And yes, the dies irae is really a day of wrath!

Quote from: head-case on June 13, 2007, 07:25:04 PM
The benchmark recording of this piece may be the Fricsay with Maria Stader.

Thank you for that information.  I had not known that.

Quote from: Mozart on June 14, 2007, 02:51:32 AM
Yea Wagner sucks.

Yeah.

I voted for Jacques Vert, Youssef Ahdar, Yosef Yarok and Joseph Gruen.

(Didn't know Brahms EVER wrote a Kyrie.)

ZB

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 14, 2007, 07:15:15 AM
I voted for Jacques Vert, Youssef Ahdar, Yosef Yarok and Joseph Gruen.

(Didn't know Brahms EVER wrote a Kyrie.)

ZB

You could at least be original...

Quote from: Mozart on June 14, 2007, 05:49:30 PM
You could at least be original...

She was.  Her wording was completely different from mine. ;)

Quote from: Mozart on June 14, 2007, 05:49:30 PM
You could at least be original...

What, about Jo Midori-san?

ZB

Quote from: Mozart on June 14, 2007, 05:49:30 PM
You could at least be original...

Come to think of it, I like one particular Gregorian Chant version best of all:
A, Bb, A, G, A, D--, F, G, A, Bb, A, G, F, E, D, C, DD, etc.

ZB

why kyrie & not another part of a mass?

Quote from: biber fan on June 17, 2007, 05:30:55 PM
why kyrie & not another part of a mass?

Why the other part of the mass and not the kyrie?

fine then forget it  ::)

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 17, 2007, 01:20:46 PM
Come to think of it, I like one particular Gregorian Chant version best of all:
A, Bb, A, G, A, D--, F, G, A, Bb, A, G, F, E, D, C, DD, etc.

ZB

Are there others?  For some reason I thought that particular chant was the "approved" chant whatever Mass was being chanted...