I remember just a little over a year ago I met a young girl (around 18, my age then) and chatted, she talked to me about aesthetics - referring to make-up and clothes, and her summer plans to do supers-ports, and I talked to her about aesthetics and Kant while she nodded shyly. She was quite big, had a provincial and shy face and often did sudden compulsive movements that startled me. She was completely unattractive to me, and yet it was quite obvious to me that I had taken her mind. She asked for my number, which I didn't hesitate to give to her and from then on called me almost every day, I spoke to her very kindly and appeared concerned. I remember one instance when I asked her over the phone where she lived and she replied "okay, see you then." "Wait, where do you live?" I repeated, "Great, I'll see you there". I imagine her father must have been in the room and she felt uncomfortable; an uncouth man in a dirty under-shirt, as I saw him take his daughter off on his motorbike that day. So I avoided this girl, I said I was busy and another time, etc. I see that I was young, and stupid back then, as I should have taken that girl and reformed her into a better person, who will do that for her now, probably no one. Merely out of unconditional love (the love of a saint) I could have changed her path into a profound one, ah what errors I have made...
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 06:28:06 AM
I see that I was young, and stupid back then, as I should have taken that girl and reformed her into a better person, who will do that for her now, probably no one. Merely out of unconditional love (the love of a saint) I could have changed her path into a profound one, ah what errors I have made...
Even this is all about
you, isn't it? Perhaps that young lady
has become a better person, in spite of the Grand Tragedy that you weren't the Messiah to Redeem her.
Maybe, she is a better person than your self-serving narrative here implies. Perhaps she is indeed, a better person than
you.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2009, 06:34:11 AM
Even this is all about you, isn't it? Perhaps that young lady has become a better person, in spite of the Grand Tragedy that you weren't the Messiah to Redeem her.
Maybe, she is a better person than your self-serving narrative here implies. Perhaps she is indeed, a better person than you.
I'd be very happy if that were true. Suggesting that she is a good person, I can tell you that she had no good style about herself, confidence nor taste, let alone education, compared to myself at the time at least. I am quite sure that if I were a fraction more mature I would have taken her under my love and reshaped her into a richer entity.
O Lord, save her from my son!
Papageno reminds me of that guy from Seven. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on September 16, 2009, 08:08:30 AM
Papageno reminds me of that guy from Seven. ;D
What's that, the mystery number? I wonder why Waterhouse always has seven women, but we all know that he was over 300 years late at what he did.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 08:09:19 AM
What's that, the mystery number? I wonder why Waterhouse always has seven women, but we all know that he was over 300 years late at what he did.
I mean the crazy serial killer in the movie.
(http://www.everythingspacey.com/images/kevin-spacey-seven.jpg)
Quote from: Crazy guyOn the subway today, a man came up to me to start a conversation. He made small talk, a lonely man talking about the weather and other things. I tried to be pleasant and accommodating, but my head hurt from his banality. I almost didn't notice it had happened, but I suddenly threw up all over him. He was not pleased, and I couldn't stop laughing.
;D
Quote from: DavidW on September 16, 2009, 08:18:33 AM
I mean the crazy serial killer in the movie.
(http://www.everythingspacey.com/images/kevin-spacey-seven.jpg)
;D
"LOL" :P ;D
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 08:25:59 AM
"LOL" :P ;D
Do you ever find your head hurting from listening to the banality of others talking? ;D
I couldn't find a pair of matched socks this morning.
Quote from: DavidW on September 16, 2009, 08:27:13 AM
Do you ever find your head hurting from listening to the banality of others talking? ;D
Ahh- you can't believe how often! So be careful, pretty boy.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 16, 2009, 08:28:54 AM
I couldn't find a pair of matched socks this morning.
That's... nice to know... ::)
The father seems to be as bad as the son.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 06:28:06 AMI see that I was young, and stupid back then, as I should have taken that girl and reformed her into a better person, who will do that for her now, probably no one.
I agree with others who find the suggestion that a narcissistic, self-obsessed weasel such as yourself could reform anyone into a better person utterly absurd. ;D
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2009, 09:23:24 AM
I agree with others who find the suggestion that a narcissistic, self-obsessed weasel such as yourself could reform anyone into a better person utterly absurd. ;D
I didn't say i could reform anyone, did I say I could reform anyone? No tell me, did I? Then where did you read that from?
I only said I could have reformed
her
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 09:57:01 AM
I didn't say i could reform anyone, did I say I could reform anyone? No tell me, did I? Then where did you read that from?
I only said I could have reformed her
"Anyone" means any person at all, not "everyone." My statement was that it is absurd to believe that there is any person at all, a single person, no matter how pathetic, anywhere in the world that you could "reform." Your claim that you could reform this individual is therefore absurd, in my view.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2009, 10:15:23 AM
"Anyone" means any person at all, not "everyone." My statement was that it is absurd to believe that there is any person at all, a single person, no matter how pathetic, anywhere in the world that you could "reform." Your claim that you could reform this individual is therefore absurd, in my view.
Explain it to me, for I must be really stupid being unable to understand your point of view.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 10:26:55 AM
Explain it to me, for I must be really stupid being unable to understand your point of view.
My point of view, based only on what I see posted on this board, is that you are only interested in yourself, and the idea that you would help another person is inconceivable.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 06:28:06 AM
I remember just a little over a year ago I met a young girl (around 18, my age then) and chatted, she talked to me about aesthetics
(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/02/08-15/baby-yawn.jpg)
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 06:28:06 AM
I see that I was young, and stupid back then, as I should have taken that girl and reformed her into a better person, who will do that for her now, probably no one.
So what would you have said if she'd asked you what 'pizzicati' were?
You may find this hard to believe but you're still pretty "young and stupid" in your relentless narcissism.
What's the point of a relationship if one doesn't help the other. I have altered my most recent lovers to the best, sure. I introduced my most recent
significant other to classical music, philosophy and have made her a richer person, perhaps very little, but I've managed - judging that she had already drawn her paths, and is 7 years my senior. I could certainly have reformed the other girl in question more significantly as she had not even drawn out her path and was lost. I can certainly alter soft, re-workable clay more significantly than rigid clay - my last mistress in question.
Quote from: Herman on September 16, 2009, 10:45:20 AM
So what would you have said if she'd asked you what 'pizzicati' were?
You may find this hard to believe but you're still pretty "young and stupid" in your relentless narcissism.
Ahh- darling, darling, I never said that I'm entirely mature, I just noted my improvements since last year.
Narcissus!? By all means, I'm an average person, just like everybody else, and I'm sure of that.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 10:47:32 AM
What's the point of a relationship if one doesn't help the other.
The point of a relationship is to lead to a union which is the prerequisite for building a family. Your own selfish personal whims need not apply.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 16, 2009, 11:19:12 AM
The point of a relationship is to lead to a union which is the prerequisite for building a family. Your own selfish personal whims need not apply.
That seems like a rather narrow definition of a relationship, but I will leave it to you and Papageno to battle it out. I don't have the stomach for it.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2009, 11:22:42 AM
That seems like a rather narrow definition of a relationship . . .
Gosh, and it certainly is not a prerequisite for any of the relationships I maintain on a daily basis at the office . . . .
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2009, 11:22:42 AM
That seems like a rather narrow definition of a relationship, but I will leave it to you and Papageno to battle it out. I don't have the stomach for it.
I assumed he was talking about a
romantic relationship. If i have to be honest i didn't even bother to see what this thread was about. I'm a binge troller.
Quote
Quote from: Crazy guy
On the subway today, a man came up to me to start a conversation. He made small talk, a lonely man talking about the weather and other things. I tried to be pleasant and accommodating, but my head hurt from his banality. I almost didn't notice it had happened, but I suddenly threw up all over him. He was not pleased, and I couldn't stop laughing.
Where is this from? This is great! :o ;D
Luckily that can't really happen, or else I would've thrown up on a few customers at work that have tried to make small talk without having anything really interesting to say.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 16, 2009, 11:38:49 AM
I assumed he was talking a romantic relationship.
I think that's what Karl meant too. ;) :D
Quote from: Greg on September 16, 2009, 11:46:20 AM
Where is this from? This is great! :o ;D
Luckily that can't really happen, or else I would've thrown up on a few customers at work that have tried to make small talk without having anything really interesting to say.
The serial killer from the movie Seven Greg, you're scaring me now... ;D
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 16, 2009, 11:19:12 AM
The point of a relationship is to lead to a union which is the prerequisite for building a family. Your own selfish personal whims need not apply.
(Sighs) And what my dear friend is the point of a family? I return and say that it is to help one another.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 12:08:28 PM
(Sighs) And what my dear friend is the point of a family? I return and say that it is to help one another.
Which brings us around to the point, who here believes you have ever been motivated by the desire to help someone? Hands?
Quote from: Scarpia on September 16, 2009, 12:17:49 PM
Which brings us around to the point, who here believes you have ever been motivated by the desire to help someone? Hands?
You're going to tell me if I've unconditionally helped someone, what, from there? Hah!
I've done it in a number of instances, varying from big to small, but not yet as big as I wish.
My motivation is to help people, that's the reason of my being, that's the reason of my work.
OK, tell you what. If you'd post a little less about these silly romantic self-involved non-adventures of yours, we'd all be greatly helped. And you, too.
People often misjudge the intentions of others.
Quote from: Herman on September 16, 2009, 01:32:47 PM
OK, tell you what. If you'd post a little less about these silly romantic self-involved non-adventures of yours, we'd all be greatly helped. And you, too.
Haha, "non-adventures", are you referring to my obsession with ideal beauty?
Do you want me to re-mould you, Herman? :P With such obstinacy as yours it would be quite an arduous undertaking.
Quote from: Papageno on September 16, 2009, 06:28:06 AM
, I spoke to her very kindly and appeared concerned.....
I should have taken that girl and reformed her into a better person, who will do that for her now, probably no one. Merely out of unconditional love (the love of a saint) I could have changed her path into a profound one, ah what errors I have made...
If you were faking concern, then that was a dishonest relationship.
Most people would (or should) run the other way if they thought you wanted to reform or mold them. That implies that you know better than they, and they have erred. The best way to help someone is unconditional love,which means full acceptance of the person the way she is
now, not as you think she
should be. What if I told you that you must be an automobile mechanic, that if you are not,then you are defective and inferior?
Quote from: Harpo on September 19, 2009, 11:01:45 AM
What if I told you that you must be an automobile mechanic, that if you are not,then you are defective and inferior?
Hume first talked about this: Quality isn't entirely subjective; what makes Bach or Mozart better than Grieg? Bach and Mozart's work is objectively better than that of Grieg. Returning to Kant; one must have the appropriate education to appreciate quality.
Having said that, the girl in question had planned to make a make-up
artist of herself, I saw that and should have tried my hand in helping her to an alternative.
Quote from: Papageno on September 19, 2009, 11:50:07 AM
Hume first talked about this: Quality isn't entirely subjective; what makes Bach or Mozart better than Grieg? Bach and Mozart's work is objectively better than that of Grieg. Returning to Kant; one must have the appropriate education to appreciate quality.
Having said that, the girl in question had planned to make a make-up artist of herself, I saw that and should have tried my hand in helping her to an alternative.
The greatest gift you can give someone is unconditional acceptance. I don't know if you're familiar with the late children's TV show creator Fred Rogers, but a frequent message he gave the kids was "I like you just the way you are." That's important for kids to hear, makes them more confident and creative adults. Nice for grownups to hear,too.
Quote from: Harpo on September 19, 2009, 06:14:12 PM
The greatest gift you can give someone is unconditional acceptance. I don't know if you're familiar with the late children's TV show creator Fred Rogers, but a frequent message he gave the kids was "I like you just the way you are." That's important for kids to hear, makes them more confident and creative adults. Nice for grownups to hear,too.
lol... Mr.Rogers. Reminds me of something... ah, never mind, I won't mention it because it's very inappropriate. ;D
anyways, that sounds like a good message
sometimes... i wouldn't say that to a budding serial killer, though. ;D
In order to change someone, you need a certain amount of subtlety, because if you tell someone they are wrong, they will become defensive. You kind of have to blow wind at a sail, and it will change direction on its own. You can't even take any credit for it.
I was reading some problems people where having, and asking advice, and its amazing how the advisers worked. The never told the person what to do, the person themself always figured out on their own the solution. And I thought to myself, wow that is so much more powerful than just directly giving someone advice. Maybe I should ask them for advice about giving advice.
Quote from: Harpo on September 19, 2009, 06:14:12 PM
The greatest gift you can give someone is unconditional acceptance. I don't know if you're familiar with the late children's TV show creator Fred Rogers, but a frequent message he gave the kids was "I like you just the way you are." That's important for kids to hear, makes them more confident and creative adults. Nice for grownups to hear,too.
Of course, I would have to become her good friend and inevitably (good) lover and would tell her, "All that is lovely darling but let me show you this string quartet I've been listening to, or this Flaubert I've been reading." That is perhaps how I would begin to re-mould her.
"I like you for just who you are"? That isn't unconditional love, Susan-darling - because you motivate me to be drawn by "the way that she is", some elements that she possesses which attract me to her. Unconditional love is: she doesn't have anything of my fancy, but I'll nevertheless help her. Love is often confused with emotions (which is in fact erôs), love is solely based on good conduct.
The only thing I need to do now is to pretend I'm a christian, so that the church will canonise me.
Quote from: Papageno on September 19, 2009, 06:47:23 PM
Love is often confused with emotions (which is in fact erôs), love is solely based on good conduct.
(http://www.game-reserve.com/images/wildlife/hippo/hippo_yawning.jpg)
Quote from: Greg on September 19, 2009, 06:33:06 PM
lol... Mr.Rogers. Reminds me of something... ah, never mind, I won't mention it because it's very inappropriate. ;D
anyways, that sounds like a good message sometimes... i wouldn't say that to a budding serial killer, though. ;D
I never particularly liked watching Mr. Rogers, but I liked his affirming messages.
No, of course you would not affirm a pathological person, but in general, support and affirmation are better than rigid judgment and easy answers. Especially with a child. It's not always easy. I have a friend who is obviously an alcoholic. I'm always tempted to just say "Stop drinking ", and have given her the names of shrinks and health hints, but that doesn't help. Nothing does. Change has to come from within her
Quote from: Mozart on September 19, 2009, 06:37:43 PM
In order to change someone, you need a certain amount of subtlety, because if you tell someone they are wrong, they will become defensive. You kind of have to blow wind at a sail, and it will change direction on its own. You can't even take any credit for it.
I was reading some problems people where having, and asking advice, and its amazing how the advisers worked. The never told the person what to do, the person themself always figured out on their own the solution. And I thought to myself, wow that is so much more powerful than just directly giving someone advice. Maybe I should ask them for advice about giving advice.
I like that! In social work school (a low period in my life) they taught us to "start where the client is"--imposing your judgments on them just turns them away. You empathize with their current condition in order to form a relationship. If your client is an alcoholic wife beater, but he wants to talk about his problems at work,then you start there.
Quote from: Harpo on September 20, 2009, 06:26:40 AM
I like that! In social work school (a low period in my life) they taught us to "start where the client is"--imposing your judgments on them just turns them away. You empathize with their current condition in order to form a relationship. If your client is an alcoholic wife beater, but he wants to talk about his problems at work,then you start there.
Very true.
In the case of the OP, though, it wasn't the "client" who needed help, but "The Expert." ::)
Quote from: Papageno on September 19, 2009, 11:50:07 AM
Hume first talked about this: Quality isn't entirely subjective; what makes Bach or Mozart better than Grieg? Bach and Mozart's work is objectively better than that of Grieg. Returning to Kant; one must have the appropriate education to appreciate quality.
Having said that, the girl in question had planned to make a make-up artist of herself, I saw that and should have tried my hand in helping her to an alternative.
1. I like Grieg--the folk quality of his music makes me happy. I'm not even going to attempt to talk about what makes "good" music--I'm sure that's been done to death here.
2. Nobody wants to be re-molded. They first want to be accepted for who they are.
3. A prestigious education does not necessarily help you to cope in the real world.
Quote from: Harpo on September 20, 2009, 06:21:11 AM
Change has to come from within her
True in many other ways...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2009, 06:32:40 AM
Very true.
In the case of the OP, though, it wasn't the "client" who needed help, but "The Expert." ::)
Probably so. People often try to help others for the wrong reasons.
Quote from: Harpo on September 20, 2009, 06:35:25 AM
Probably so. People often try to help others for the wrong reasons.
and then there are those who don't help others one bit, but pose afterwards as if their overweening superiority could have provided help of the greatest magnitude.
I think that papageno is just at that age where he thinks he knows everything, even if he only thinks that subconsciously. I find the idea of "helping" others laughable when we usually have trouble helping ourselves. I'm not a religious man, but this quote is apt--
Quote from: Matthew 7:3Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
As I turn 30 next week, I'm quite
slowly coming off that smug arrogance myself. Only as you come down off that high horse do you begin to see how high you were perched up there, and how stupid it was. ::)
Don't worry, I'm still plenty arrogant. Probably won't shed that until I'm 40 or perhaps 50. ;D
Well, we many of us were dumb bricks when we were young :D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 20, 2009, 07:04:13 AM
Well, we many of us were dumb bricks when we were young :D
Yeah,
pffff.
You're not getting my point darlings.
Why are you calling grown men "darlings"? Is this an English thing I don't know about? ???
Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2009, 07:01:30 AM
I think that papageno is just at that age where he thinks he knows everything, even if he only thinks that subconsciously. I find the idea of "helping" others laughable when we usually have trouble helping ourselves. I'm not a religious man, but this quote is apt--
Quote from: Matthew 7:3
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
As I turn 30 next week, I'm quite slowly coming off that smug arrogance myself. Only as you come down off that high horse do you begin to see how high you were perched up there, and how stupid it was. ::)
Don't worry, I'm still plenty arrogant. Probably won't shed that until I'm 40 or perhaps 50. ;D
By all means, I'm not saying that I am flawless myself, I do try to
correct myself as much as possible, not to say that I can't help someone in a wretched state.
Why, do you know how much I'd like to have a woman of about forty or fifty to be my mentor, my reformer, my teacher - and lover.
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 10:41:49 AM
Why, do you know how much I'd like to have woman of about forty or fifty to be my mentor, my reformer, my teacher - and lover.
What odd taste from someone your age. ;D
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 10:44:48 AM
What odd taste from someone your age. ;D
Oh yes. No, I don't touch the young ones, I keep them in distance and feed my influence and sentiment with them - the frail and innocent ones, that is. Just like Dante did with young Beatrice. I like the older, "corrupt" ones for lovers, I don't want to sully; I want the sullied.
I've heard positive things about women that age... um, though I'd rather not go into detail. :P
I just wonder how in the world you would find 40 year olds more attractive than 20 year olds?...
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 10:57:48 AM
I've heard positive things about women that age... um, though I'd rather not go into detail. :P
I just wonder how in the world you would find 40 year olds more attractive than 20 year olds?...
Huge difference; one is Dante's Beatrice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Portinari), and the other Flaubert's Madame Arnoux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimental_Education).
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 10:50:26 AM
Oh yes. No, I don't touch the young ones, I keep them in distance and feed my influence and sentiment with them - the frail and innocent ones, that is. Just like Dante did with young Beatrice. I like the older, "corrupt" ones for lovers, I don't want to sully; I want the sullied.
You don't have a decomposing picture of yourself in the attic by any chance?
What was that you pulled with the premature news of your death? You seem a very lively corpse today. I am tempted to suggest that you get back in your box.
At least you have the self awareness to indicate some connection to Onegin...I can see that, none of it to your advantage.
Mike
Quote from: knight on September 21, 2009, 12:01:34 PM
You don't have a decomposing picture of yourself in the attic by any chance?
What was that you pulled with the premature news of your death? You seem a very lively corpse today. I am tempted to suggest that you get back in your box.
At least you have the self awareness to indicate some connection to Onegin...I can see that, none of it to your advantage.
Mike
Yes, I repent and am still serving my retribution.
'Geno, I think you and Sean should get together. You two would make a 'darling' couple. 0:)
I haven't seen Sean in the forum for quite a while...
Quote from: Papageno on September 21, 2009, 02:43:09 PM
I haven't seen Sean in the forum for quite a while...
I think he just started up grad school and he's busy. Didn't he say something about starting to work on a doctorate? :)
Quote from: DavidW on September 21, 2009, 03:32:20 PM
I think he just started up grad school and he's busy.
Grad school? Grade school's more like it. ::)
Quote from: Greg on September 21, 2009, 09:19:45 AM
Why are you calling grown men "darlings"? Is this an English thing I don't know about? ???
I'm interpreting "darling" and "sweetheart" as P's put-down terms, said in a sarcastic tone to persons of both sexes.
Quote from: Harpo on September 21, 2009, 06:34:29 PM
I'm interpreting "darling" and "sweetheart" as P's put-down terms, said in a sarcastic tone to persons of both sexes.
If so, that's
almost cool. When said to a girl, I think it could be if used sarcastically- but to a guy, it just doesn't seem cool no matter how you use it. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on September 21, 2009, 03:32:20 PM
I think he just started up grad school and he's busy. Didn't he say something about starting to work on a doctorate? :)
Yes, I thought he was going to Scotland.....he will find the women there more of an all round challenge than he is used to I think. Though I guess he may concentrate on the non-indigenous ones. Scots women generally would have more sense............and less patience with his ilk.
Mike