GMG Classical Music Forum

:: rescheduled at long last, by popular demand! ::

Rescheduled, and under way . . . .

Wonderful - count me in.

I was relying on you, mon ami.

Count me in, once I get my box set in the post!  It will be exciting as it will be a First Listen for me!  :)

Karl!   Happy 20 K posts !!

Happy to participate in Agon-izing study as much as I can.  8)

--Bruce

Quote from: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 07:51:21 AM
Count me in, once I get my box set in the post!  It will be exciting as it will be a First Listen for me!  :)

Excellent, Ray!  I was relying on you, too, with The Big Box on its way!

Quote from: ChamberNut on September 17, 2009, 07:51:54 AM
Karl!  Happy 20 K posts !!

Merci beaucoups!

Quote from: James on September 17, 2009, 07:52:13 AM
I have listened to this piece countless times & love it, but I'm busy bathing in Wagner's glorious music this week.  0:)

Then, it's a bit of luck that the Listening is scheduled for another week, isn't it?  ;)

Now I have to go out to look for a recording. Astonishingly, I do not have a single one.

(My ranking in Karl's mind has just nosedived 100 notches...)

Quote from: springrite on September 17, 2009, 07:56:33 AM
Now I have to go out to look for a recording. Astonishingly, I do not have a single one.

(My ranking in Karl's mind has just nosedived 100 notches...)

Not at all, mon cher!  Few of us can own everything, and here you are, out to recitify this omission  0:)

Must it be a specific recording to follow along?  Because I would follow along and buy Craft's bargain recording but wouldn't be interested enough to spend big bucks on something else. :D

Quote from: DavidW on September 17, 2009, 08:08:05 AM
Must it be a specific recording to follow along?

Not at all; we'll all be listening to sundry recordings, so by all means, fetch in the Craft!

When must we have our homework done by.

Quote from: ' on September 18, 2009, 03:26:30 AM
I'd be curious to know which recordings folks have? And esp. to know which ones they listen to most.

How many recordings are there? Apart from several Stravinsky's there are Tilson Thomas, Craft, Mravinsky, Rosbaud and Gielen, nothing else comes to mind readily. Of those I have Stravinsky/LA Festival, Craft/St.Luke's and Mravinsky/Leningrad. Don't have the answer to the second question, haven't listened to piece often enough to have preferred recordings but will give a spin to all three in next few days.  

I suppose this work is too recent to have a score available online, hmm? If so, I may have a lead on one to use for this listening, but I'd much rather have an online one!

Quote from: owlice on September 24, 2009, 06:54:18 AM
I suppose this work is too recent to have a score available online, hmm?

Definitely still under copyright to Boosey & Hawkes.

Great initiative, Karl!

Quote from: Dana on September 18, 2009, 05:25:11 AM
When must we have our homework done by.

Purely elective, mon vieux.

It's October 5. :)

8)

Now it's October 6. :)

8)

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/5/7450188_e3e2e32a81.jpg?v=0)

;D

Isn't someone meant to post a big introductory piece on the thing, and then guide the discussion?

Quote from: ' on October 06, 2009, 03:43:18 AM
I've never been to one of these things, so I don't know the rules of order. So far, it seems just like a book club, without the wine. '

Oh it's fun!  We did a whole series of them a few years ago. :)

Some of them were great successes where the poster would say listen at so and so and this time, do you hear that well blah blah blah...  And some would talk about context, and how to listen to such a piece, and some would do a full musical analysis.  Great stuff. 

It'll be great to do it again, and if Karl makes it succeed then we might see more from other posters and that would be cool. :)

Quote from: Guido on October 06, 2009, 04:06:59 AM
Isn't someone meant to post a big introductory piece on the thing, and then guide the discussion?

Yeah that would be Karl. ;D

Quote from: ' on October 06, 2009, 03:43:18 AM
I've never been to one of these things, so I don't know the rules of order. So far, it seems just like a book club, without the wine. '

I'd share mine, but don't know where to send it. :)

A nice Merlot, I think...

8)

Quote from: ' on October 06, 2009, 03:43:18 AMI've never been to one of these things, so I don't know the rules of order. So far, it seems just like a book club, without the wine. '

It's a BYOW club.

I wound up taking vacation time last week, and my Agon activity simply did not happen. (Other musical activity did, about which I am very pleased, but call that OT.)

Bumping this ahead to next week, which allows me time to scare up my score  8)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2009, 03:53:44 AM
I wound up taking vacation time last week, and my Agon activity simply did not happen. (Other musical activity did, about which I am very pleased, but call that OT.)

Bumping this ahead to next week, which allows me time to scare up my score  8)

My situation exactly.  :)

I know it's around here, somewhere . . . .

Found it.

Are we going to plan on a group listen and then give our comments or start a discussion at some point?  I still have not sat down with the score but plan on doing that this afternoon/evening.

I don't know how these kinds of threads have been done in the past and am not suggesting anything specific, just wanted to ask.

The weekend past was a bit heavier of demand than I had counted on. Normally, I should have gotten things started with some background . . . which I can rustle up this evening.

But it's nothing really formal . . . so if you want to get the discussion started, please be welcome!  At last I shall be able to answer your questions, because I've got the score and the Big Box both to hand!  8)

Here's a general and not particularly profound observation, though.

Agon is such a delightful hodge-podge, that I have found it easy to 'play favorites' in the back of my mind.  But this occasion to revisit the piece yet closer, I find I am keenly fond even of my 'non-favorite' numbers.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 20, 2009, 05:57:04 AM
The weekend past was a bit heavier of demand than I had counted on. Normally, I should have gotten things started with some background . . . which I can rustle up this evening.

But it's nothing really formal . . . so if you want to get the discussion started, please be welcome!  At last I shall be able to answer your questions, because I've got the score and the Big Box both to hand!  8)

If things go as planned, and I in fact sit down and listen with score, I will post something later tonight.  Whether it actually starts a discussion is out of my hands.

:)

Quote from: ' on October 20, 2009, 06:53:03 AM
(fully re-employed after 7 mo. of layoff).

Good news!

Last night, with score in hand, I listened to Agon - and while I am not prepared to make any ground- shaking comments, I can say a few things about my impressions of the experience.

I first listened to the Robert Craft, Naxos, recording - and then listened to the Stravinsky Los Angeles 'Big Box" one.  While my score following during the Craft was pretty good, my attention was wandering during the Stravinsky, I was also watching the Yankees beat up (Yay!) on the Angels - but what struck me immediately was how much more I enjoyed the Craft recording.

In comparison, the Big Box performance sounded ragged and blurred.  Craft seemed to get his group to play as an inspired ensemble, whereas the L.A. band appeared to be satisfied just to get through the work.  In places, the L.A. group sounded like the dynamics were all wrong with the wrong instrument(s) overshadowing what ought to be more prominent.  (I will listen again tonight and have measure numbers at the ready tomorrow for a more informed comment in this regard.)

I never did find the "errors" in the Stravinsky performance, although one of the closing chords in the first half sounded funky - but this could have been because of the balance of the forces not matching what I heard from Craft.  I can say this, when people have said of the Stravinsky recording, "well, there are better versions out there" - I totally understand this now.

I want to hear even more conductors.

This is one of my favorite works, and I have listened to it many times, but not until I followed the score was I aware of some things and had enjoyed the work almost superficially before.

I really want to read what others came away with.

Most interesting, thank you both.

I just received my CD (Craft). I believe I've heard of Stravinsky  :) but not this piece, so I have some questions:

Why was this piece chosen for discussion?

What was going on in Stravinsky's life and does that matter to the listener?

Where do we hear the dialogue between diatonic and atonal, and between instruments? Why was it composed that way?

Can you highlight specific parts of the piece to illustrate those points?

Is it harder to listen to ballet music vs. music composed strictly for listening? Does lack of visual make it incomplete?

Thanks for joining in, Susan!

Quote from: Harpo on October 23, 2009, 03:47:11 PM
Why was this piece chosen for discussion?

(Argh, somehow the forum software ate my reply-in-progress.)  I chose the piece for largely personal reasons, because (a) I like it a great deal, (b) it was time (I felt) that I got to know the piece even better, (c) the revival of a listening group was a good excuse to force myself to root about and turn up the score, and (d) Franco and I had some amiable banter going, wherein, whenever the topic of this piece came up, I regularly spoke of the regrettable inadequacies of the "Stravinsky's own" recording, and Franco would say, "What is this, Karl?"

Quote from: HarpoWhat was going on in Stravinsky's life and does that matter to the listener?

Eric Walter White writes:

Schoenberg's death in the summer of 1951 (a few weeks before the première of The Rake's Progress) meant that the three chief Viennese serialists – Berg, Webern and Schoenberg – were now all dead:  so their contributions to serialism could at last be viewed in a historical perspective.

[...] his [Stravinsky's] own approach to serialism was a gradual one.  He was clearly not going to allow himself to be rushed into a snap decision;  and between 1952 and 1957 his serial essays were cautious experiments carried out within a framework of tonal music.  This is particularly true of the Three Songs from William Shakespeare, the Canticum sacrum (1955) and Agon (1953-57).  Not until Threni (1957-58) and Movements for piano and orchestra (1958-59), does one encounter completely serial works.

In his recent biography, Stephen Walsh puts the discreet case that Stravinsky was beginning to feel that musical fashion was moving out of his orbit;  that Craft (whom Stravinsky had invited to stay with him from 1947) was discreetly instrumental in bringing the work of Webern (in particular) to Stravinsky's close attention;  and that Stravinsky's "slouching towards serialism" was (in part) an unusual effort by an aging composer to remain au courant.

The first concert performance of Agon was conducted by Craft on 17 June 1957 "as part of a Los Angeles festiva progamme to commemorate Stravinsky's seventy-fifth birthday."

"The first stage performance was given by George Balanchine on 1 December 1957 in New York with choreography compared by Stravinsky to one of Mondrian's abstractions." (Roman Vlad)

Quote from: HarpoWhere do we hear the dialogue between diatonic and atonal, and between instruments? Why was it composed that way?

Lincoln Kirstein commissioned Agon for the New York City Ballet, and Stravinsky began work on the ballet (the tonal bits, notably the Prelude, which would undergo some changes in scoring over the years) "as early as December 1953."  He had composed about two-fifths of the piece when he interrupted that work, and composed In memoriam Dylan Thomas and the Canticum sacrum.  So we might say that the 'why' of the piece being written in this hybrid manner, is the span of time between starting the work, and resuming it to completion;  and the fact that his compositional manner had begun 'trending' heavily to serialism in the interval.

One aspect of the 'verging upon serialism' in Agon is, that there is not a single unifying series.  More on this presently.

Quote from: HarpoCan you highlight specific parts of the piece to illustrate those points?

The Prelude is readily apparent as 'tonal', though it does not function within Common Practice tonality.  In the first system, F is the pitch in the bass;  so even though the opening trumpet fanfare rattles a repeated C (a phrase which actually seems to trend to A Minor?), an actual 'cadence' on C (though with the 'Lydian' raised fourth degree) is left for the two horns in the second system.  Overall the Prelude contrasts the somewhat-more-chromatic warmth of the woodwind, trombone and low string passages in the middle, with the archaic "white-note" fanfare material (though, as a result of that 'dialogue', the trumpets and horns adopt D-flat at different times, though in both cases manage to gravitate back to C.

This is part of the instrumental dialogue, too, as Stravinsky "marks off" the different pitch-world segments (we might say) with distinct scoring.

This contrasts with the ensuing Double pas-de-quatre, which on the one hand, recalls the energetic "Italianate" writing of (say) Pulcinella and Jeu de cartes, and yet presses further away from the tonal fanfare of the Prelude.

I should go on, only it is eleven o'clock  ;)

Quote from: HarpoIs it harder to listen to ballet music vs. music composed strictly for listening? Does lack of visual make it incomplete?

Not in Stravinsky's case, I don't find;  for he really does write the music for "listening integrity," and he writes eminently danceable music.

Quote from: ' on October 24, 2009, 05:00:42 AM
Indeed. I always thought Harpo's name was Arthur, after he changed it from Adolph.

I like to keep people guessing.  :)

Thanks, Karl and Apostrophe. Now I'll go back and listen more knowledgeably.

Quote from: ' on October 24, 2009, 05:00:42 AM
Small note: although Craft's relationship with Stravinsky began in the 40s, he didn't move in with (and later near) the Stravinskys until later in the '50s. Craft stayed in New York, performing a lot of Stravinsky and Schoenberg (and recording some Stravinsky) and working with Auden on the Rake.
'

Thanks for the emendation . . . if I had the Walsh to hand, I might have avoided the mis-suggestion, but I was working from fleeting leafage in White, and Vlad.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 23, 2009, 07:04:49 PM

Not in Stravinsky's case, I don't find;  for he really does write the music for "listening integrity," and he writes eminently danceable music.

Generally I like to emphasize that Stravinsky really intended much of his music as ballet music, and, coming from a stage family, he probably didn't see anything bad in that. If he had wanted to write symphonies he would have done so.

However, Agon is one the few ballet pieces that i can listen to without picturing the Balanchine moves. With the exception of the slow pas de deux, which sounds a little 'empty' to me as music per se.

Interesting comments about the 'genetics' of the mandolin, apostrophe.

Quote from: ' on October 26, 2009, 06:30:55 AM
Common mistake.

I -- and dammit Cato -- almost never indulge in apostrophe. My ' comes from the humble symbol for foot, much closer to strophic than to apostrophic.
'

Do you mean "foot" as in 12 inches = 1 foot?      :)

or      (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:b8g49CtJ6Y6U-M:http://www.clker.com/cliparts/a/8/c/d/1194984778189639209right_foot_print_benji_p_02.svg.hi.png)      ;D      ?

or  poetic meter     /x    ?

Quote from: ' on November 02, 2009, 03:34:14 PM
Well, this turned out to be a disappointment. But thank you to those who contributed.'

I think the discussion was more about whose recording was better, as opposed to what was going on in the actual piece.  If we do it again, let's try to stick to the composer and analysis of the selection. If you want to debate recordings, put that in a separate thread.

Quote from: ' on November 04, 2009, 02:46:32 PM
I agree. With the Stravinsky/Craft recordings, there is the matter as to whether, and, if so, how clearly the recordings document how the composer thinks the music should be performed. But discussing which record is better in that general sense is never interesting, although reading about someone's interaction with a performance is very often interesting.

I thought that this discussion was going to be about the music, following the score, and Agon is IS at his richest. For example, I am continually enthralled by the sort of tidepool microcosm in the tightly overlapping counterpoint of the Gaillarde, and how something so simple as the flute chorus in locked thirds lives in the same pool as the harp/mandolin canons is to me so visual. And how, in that respect, I wish I had a detailed sense of how IS and Balanchine interacted in the development of the piece.   
'

Sorry, I've nearly given up on writing to message boards; it just doesn't seem worth the effort any more. But I would have gotten into a discussion like this in years past, and your last sentence is especially pertinent. Agon does in fact stand alone well as a concert piece, but seeing the choreography gives the experience an entirely new dimension as you watch how Balanchine both complements and plays against IS's score.

Unfortunately it is impossible to see the entire ballet unless you can find a live performance. For all the CDs of the score, there is not one complete DVD available of the ballet itself, and there is nothing in the dance world like the frenzy to record every possible scrap of music that one finds in classical music circles. (At least some of Balanchine's choreography to Stravinsky can be easily had on DVD, including the Rubies section from Jewels and the Violin Concerto - both of these, however, are Balanchine settings after the fact rather than initial collaborations.) You can see a very little bit of Balanchine's Agon by Google Videoing "agon new york city ballet"; unfortunately the soundtrack doesn't use the IS score. And just about 2 minutes from the original staging (Diana Adams and Arthur Mitchell; the mixed-race pas de deux was quite daring for 1957) are easily available in the Kultur DVD documentary of Balanchine's career. However, anyone who is in New York next winter should keep January 20, 23, or February 9 free, as the NYC Ballet is performing the work complete. I've seen it three times already but wouldn't miss another opportunity, especially if Wendy Whelan is dancing the solo ballerina role.

Quote from: Harpo on November 04, 2009, 12:00:05 PM
I think the discussion was more about whose recording was better, as opposed to what was going on in the actual piece.  If we do it again, let's try to stick to the composer and analysis of the selection. If you want to debate recordings, put that in a separate thread.

I'll take ownership of this (neighborly) criticism.  I had intentions of discussing the guts of the score, but there hasn't really been the time.

Among other things, I have yet to send you a certain disc, Harpo.

All the same, those who have taken part, I thank you!

I still don't know where/what the errors are in the Stravinsky big box recording.

:(

Oh well, it gave me an opportunity to listen to one of my favorite works with new ears, nothing to take for granted - and so, for me, this thread was better than most.

Quote from: Franco on November 05, 2009, 05:47:38 AM
I still don't know where/what the errors are in the Stravinsky big box recording.

:(

I remember expressing a degree of dissatisfaction with it, myself.

I don't recall anyone saying "errors."

Quote from: Sforzando on November 05, 2009, 04:05:52 AM
Sorry, I've nearly given up on writing to message boards; it just doesn't seem worth the effort any more.

Why is this?

Quote from: Guido on November 06, 2009, 03:21:34 AM
Why is this?

Our dear friend used to write long, significant posts, but unfortunately no one paid attention.  I enjoyed them, but it was hard for me to comment.  Long things take time to digest, and music forums are not about digestion, for better or worse.

I think we should have the sfz blog.  I would read it!

Quote from: Catison on November 10, 2009, 04:54:40 PM
I think we should have the sfz blog.  I would read it!

Hear, hear!

Sorry if I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but I just recently bagged the Stravinsky Box (courtesy of recommendations here) and noticed this thread on Agon. I hadn't heard this piece before and just finished listening to it for the first time. Knowing that this was prepared for ballet the music certainly does strike me as being quite visually-oriented. I certainly have never seen what the ballet looks like, but it sounds like there are plenty of musical "cues" in this piece from which a choreographer could draw inspiration from (or was it the other way around? hmmmm...). As music it's really enjoyable - I'm especially drawn to some of the bassoon parts - beautiful stuff here! And, at the risk of winning the Captain Obvious award, it is quite apparent that a certain 20th Century composer whose last name begins with the letter "Z" (and whose albums were rarely filed in the classical bins) must have loved this piece! Is it a coincidence that Lumpy Gravy was also composed as a ballet? After listening to Frank's stuff for so long, it is fun to discover and appreciate something from "the source". Did I mention I really liked the bassoon parts? Cheers!
---------- Chris

: )

That video was awesome! Thanks James!  ;D
----- Chris

I guess it's time to revive this thread for 2010!  :)

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 18, 2010, 03:27:59 PM
I guess it's time to revive this thread for 2010!  :)

It is!

(And now, where was that score? . . .)

Listening to Agon right now.  I remember not thinking very highly of it the first time I heard it.  Ever since, on each additional listen it has sounded better and better.

This scenario inevitably reminds me of a Seinfeld episode (Co-stan-za!), where women find George annoying at first, but in time he starts to grow on them.  :D

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 21, 2010, 04:13:37 PM
Listening to Agon right now.  I remember not thinking very highly of it the first time I heard it.  Ever since, on each additional listen it has sounded better and better.

I believe it one of IS's most successful later works.

I was mistaken on one point above, almost a year ago:

"You can see a very little bit of Balanchine's Agon by Google Videoing "agon new york city ballet"; unfortunately the soundtrack doesn't use the IS score. And just about 2 minutes from the original staging (Diana Adams and Arthur Mitchell; the mixed-race pas de deux was quite daring for 1957) are easily available in the Kultur DVD documentary of Balanchine's career."

There is another Nonesuch VHS tape called Balanchine Celebration Vol. 2 that presents a good 50% of the ballet, i.e., all three central sections including the two pas de trois and the pas de deux. It is not available on DVD, but there are several used copies on Amazon at rather high prices. (Not to mention one "collectible" copy at $1,147.02. You've got to be joking.) But if your local library has a copy, it is really essential viewing for any Agonist.

Quote from: Sforzando on October 21, 2010, 05:13:15 PM
(Not to mention one "collectible" copy at $1,147.02. You've got to be joking.)

One can only hope that a humorist is at work there.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2010, 05:10:18 AM
One can only hope that a humorist is at work there.

He's just being antagonistic  ;)

Quote from: Benji on October 22, 2010, 07:27:49 AM
He's just being antagonistic  ;)

It's the $.02 that gets to me.

Got this recording recently

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jmkUJsoqL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

but it looks like I missed the boat by about a year.   :'(

Well, if you mean this recording, I haven't fetched it in yet, myself, either.

If you mean the discussion . . . I think we are now trending towards getting it under proper way.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2010, 10:13:35 AM
Well, if you mean this recording, I haven't fetched it in yet, myself, either.

If you mean the discussion . . . I think we are now trending towards getting it under proper way.

The recording is in hand.  According to the caption, the discussion ended a year ago next week.  Behind schedule?

Pretty badly, too.

What if we say first week in November?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 22, 2010, 10:39:55 AM
Pretty badly, too.

What if we say first week in November?

I'm ahead of the game, as I listened to it yesterday.  Yet, I will happily repeat the listen, and make sure I'm doing nothing else but put 100% focus on the piece.

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 22, 2010, 10:43:42 AM
I'm ahead of the game, as I listened to it yesterday.  Yet, I will happily repeat the listen, and make sure I'm doing nothing else but put 100% focus on the piece.

Cool! We're on!

I went on a wee Stravinsky binge last night on Amazon. I'm sure I have at least one recording of Agon in there. Two if Boulez recorded on DG at any time.

I guess no one got around to listening to it.  I gave the Gielen recording a spin.  An interesting piece, uses a very large ensemble, but rarely allowing more than a few instruments to participate at any point in time, creating the impression of an infinitely variable chamber music ensemble.  I usually find that exasperating, but it seems to work this time.  There are parts that are gentle, playful, and some very vigorous and rhythmically intense.   Interesting music, although not compelling in the way some of the earlier scores are.

The notes to the recording make a point of telling us that Stravinsky had inexplicably started exploring 12-tone, serial methods in this work, although it doesn't sound more "atonal" than a lot of other things Stravinsky had written in earlier times. 

Mea culpa.

Who's still interested?  When should we shoot for?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2010, 12:36:38 PM
Mea culpa.

Who's still interested?  When should we shoot for?

Christmas 2012?

I'd definitely be down for an idea like this. I've not yet heard Agon. Are we still going to do this? Or should a new piece be selected?

Quote from: Sforzando on December 02, 2010, 05:47:15 PM
Christmas 2012?

Looking that way, isn't it?

I've got MTT. Ready when you are, capt'n.

Quote from: Philoctetes on December 02, 2010, 06:04:15 PM
I'd definitely be down for an idea like this. I've not yet heard Agon. Are we still going to do this? Or should a new piece be selected?

Have you watched Simon Rattle's Leaving Home series on TV? The opening titles are an excerpt from Agon.

The NYC Ballet is performing Agon this Saturday afternoon, May 7, and next Tuesday, May 10.

Very nice! You attending?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2011, 06:49:02 AM
Very nice! You attending?

On Saturday. Apollo is also on the program.

It really is an uncommon opportunity to see the Balanchine choreography, as (despite numerous CDs of the music) there is no full-length commercial video of the ballet. (You can, however, track down a VHS tape called Balanchine Celebration that includes about 15 minutes worth of the ballet, minus the opening and closing sections, but better than nothing.)

(Oh. Reading back a page, I see I said the same thing over a year ago. This is one fast-moving thread.)

Hah!

I predict that on the 10th anniversary of this thread we will actually have that listening group of Agon. ;D

Quote from: haydnfan on May 05, 2011, 10:23:15 AM
I predict that on the 10th anniversary of this thread we will actually have that listening group of Agon. ;D

I'll try to post a review, though it may take a couple of years.

If I had known sooner (not to seem to lay any blame at (poco) Sfz's feet), we might have gotten it together in advance of the performance.

When do we want to re-open it?

June? Or later this month? Sfz, Davey, Ray? . . .

I'll just buy the Craft recording through amazon mp3 whenever we start, so I'm cool with whenever.

It's a week when we bask in the piece, post thoughts (as a rule, we don't do the recording comparisons) . . . when it works right, yes, it's sort of a communal blog.

Is there a week that works well for you, Leon? Glad to have you aboard!

Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 05:49:38 AM
This month would be best, since I am between semesters.  But I could easily find a week in any month really.

I have Stravinsky's and Craft's recordings - are we to listen to the same or does it matter?

Doesn't matter (or, not essential).

How about if we do the week of 22 May, lads?

My copy will be delivered to a US address and I will pick the package (100+cds) in October. So if the discussion takes place before then, I'd be out of the game.

But go ahead and I will revisit this thread and read all the posts come late October.





Make that November.

http://www.youtube.com/v/jz0mqFnZhLk

That works for me too. :)

The People has spoken!

Rescheduled for the week of 22 May.  Get your scores on!

I'm not qualified to address the quality of the performance, but I found this free .MP3.

Sorry, can't link copyrighted materials.    $:)

Obviously, one should always scan downloaded material for malware.  I've never used this site before, so pull from it at your own risk.  I intend to open the file only on my .MP3 player, not on my computer, until I've more experience with the site.  With that said, Wikipedia says PC Mag and CNET gave it thumbs up.  Of course, anyone could edit Wikipedia to say anything for a brief period of time.

I will scan the vast and very voluminous Cato Archives for Agon.

YouTube is blocked here at school - even (or especially) for the faculty  $:)  - but there is a performance available on it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz0mqFnZhLk  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz0mqFnZhLk)

Quote from: Palmetto on May 09, 2011, 03:11:01 PM

Sorry, can't link copyrighted materials.    $:)

Geez, I missed the c/r on that.  :-[  That's a shame; I thought I'd found a useful resource.  My profuse apologies.  Digital music is still pretty new to me and I don't know the ins and outs or what to look for yet.

Cato, I think that's one for the pet peeves thread: aggressive web filters.

Quote from: Palmetto on May 10, 2011, 06:48:04 AM
Geez, I missed the c/r on that.  :-[  That's a shame; I thought I'd found a useful resource.  My profuse apologies.  Digital music is still pretty new to me and I don't know the ins and outs or what to look for yet.

Palmetto, please check private message.   :)

Thanks.

Ray, you're in, aren't you?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 12, 2011, 10:57:49 AM
Ray, you're in, aren't you?

For sure, I'll even pencil it in so I don't forget!   8)

Prepare ye to git yer Agon on!

Oh holy cow it's already that time! :o

Aye : )

I was at the MFA today, we'll kick off more proper tomorrow.

Agon, ballet for twelve dancers, 1953-57. First performance:  Los Angeles (concert), 17 June 1957; New York (stage), 1 December 1957 (preceded by a charity performance on 27 November). Published by Boosey & Hawkes, 1957.

From Stephen Walsh, Stravinsky, The Second Exile:  France and America, 1934-1971

I'll listen to mine and decide if I have anything to say about it.

Quote from: Mn Dave on May 23, 2011, 07:05:02 AM
I'll listen to mine and decide if I have anything to say about it.

Then, you understand how this works.

(Which do you have? Just curious . . . .)

I'm revisiting the Walsh, and the biographical context is interesting.  May type some stuff in.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2011, 07:07:56 AM
Then, you understand how this works.

(Which do you have? Just curious . . . .)

I'm revisiting the Walsh, and the biographical context is interesting.  May type some stuff in.

The same one everyone else has.

Dude, you've got the Stravinsky Box?!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2011, 07:11:56 AM
Dude, you've got the Stravinsky Box?!

Nah. Craft.

Craft is my go to listening too.  I was actually waiting to see if I will be able to understand you Karl! :D

Look at that quarter note on measure 25... doesn't that just send shivers down your spine?  It's so perfect in it's placement only Stravinsky could have thought of that... discuss. :D

Quote from: Mn Dave on May 23, 2011, 07:19:23 AM
Nah. Craft.

What's your favorite bit? (Or haven't you got one?)

Actually, I haven't got the Craft, but it must be good.

Quote from: haydnfan on May 23, 2011, 07:27:36 AM
Craft is my go to listening too.  I was actually waiting to see if I will be able to understand you Karl! :D

I have not yet begun to be obscure!

Fact is, I need this evening to dig up some materials.

Offhand, my quarrels with the original recording today, are mostly intonation here and there . . . .

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2011, 07:35:22 AM
What's your favorite bit? (Or haven't you got one?)

I don't even know for sure. Stravinsky sort of slides right off my brain. Sorry. However, I will listen to this piece by week's end.

That's cool. Part of why it's a week's affair.

I'll listen through the piece carefully this afternoon, will post my impressions however simplistic they maybe. :)

At the risk of introducing a music-geek element, though . . . I've got an [technical musical term deleted] question for later.

(Deleted the term, in case it should give the game away too soon . . . .)

Alright so this is what I think...

First of all amazon mp3 download = no liner notes.  So what to do?  Google!  I wanted to be prepared with the program, it is a ballet after all. What no program??  Seriously?  Okay...

I've listened to it twice.  And no program= no story, no emotional picture, no conventional classical sonata form narrative.  This is a very abstract work.

I had read that Agon is diatonic meets 12 tone.  Well I can't hear it, I'll be honest, I don't know much about tonality.  It's beyond me.  I'll tell you what I do here.  The piece starts out melodic, and rhythmically driven like the kind of Stravinsky I'm used to. As the piece progresses the music becomes mildly dissonant and loses homophony for an easy on the ear polyphony that is 2 voices, but varying between pairs of individual instruments or groups playing together.  Without listening to it with the melodic and harmonic complications, one might think that it would sound complicated or ugly, but I found that they followed the same rhythmic pulse.  Like breathing, I could hear the instruments pause with a collective sigh.  It's not really stop and go, but they felt like they were playing in sync with each other with staccato phrasing. Whether the music was simple or complex I felt that I could follow along by following the beat.  Closer to the end of the work melodies start to pop out more and more, and that dissonant edge goes away and it sounds like it did in the beginning.

I might be wrong, I might have lead ears but there you have it. :D  Now I guess it's back to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven... ;D

I don't think you've done half bad for 'flying blind', Davey! We'll try to get more texture for you . . . .

Also, thanks for your thoughts, because I've been wondering myself about the "tonality vs. atonality" angle.  I mean, I could point to instances of one or the other in the score, but . . . just going with these old ears, the whole abstract score with all its variety strikes me as fairly "whole-cloth" rather than any forced blend of oil and water . . . and I was curious how an "untutored" listener (untutored in this specific piece) would receive the music.

I was expecting that kind of oil and water kind of thing too.

La-de-la-da-da-da-da-dum HONK! HONK! La-de-la-da-da-da-da-dum ;D

But yeah, it didn't happen. :D

Thanks Leon btw, your kind words helped me post.  I also feel like the ice is broken in the discussion now, and more posters will surface to post their impressions. :)

Quote from: haydnfan on May 23, 2011, 02:40:18 PM
The Greek ballets, Stravinsky conducted by Robert Craft who I believe conducted the premieres as well?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0008JEKCW.01.L.jpg)

:)

Actually, the three ballets cover quite a period, and Craft was not a part of Stravinsky's life until about the time of Agon.

Here is a simple  chart:

[this data from Eric Walter White's book]

Apollon Musagète [Apollo]
Composed at Nice between July 1927 and January 1928
First performance at the Library of Congress, Washington DC, 27 Apr 1928
First European performance with the Saisons Russes, at the Théatre Sarah-Bernhardt, Paris, 12 June 1928 conducted by the composer

Orpheus
Composed at Hollywood, finished on 23 Sep 1947
First performance, Ballet Society, New York, 28 Apr 1948

Agon
Composition begun in Dec 1953; interrupted in 1954; resumed in 1956 and completed in 1957
First concert performance in LA, 17 Jun 1957, conducted by Robt Craft
First stage performance, NY City Ballet, 1 Dec 1957

There's a hint in the Walsh that Stravinsky himself was a little impatient with Balanchine in terms of the composer having any idea about a scenario.  Such a division between the two collaborators is entirely absent, though, from White's description, with which we'll start.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


For Agon Stravinsky decided on twelve movements arranged in four sections of three, as follows:

I.   (i) Pas-de-quatre
(ii) Double Pas-de-quatre
(iii) Triple Pas-de-quatre

Prelude
II.   (First Pas-de-trois)
(i)   Sarabande-Step
(ii)   Gaillarde
(iii)   Coda

Interlude
III.   (Second Pas-de-trois)
(i)   Bransle simple
(ii)   Bransle gay
(iii)   Bransle de Poitou

Interlude
IV.   (i)   Pas-de-deux
(ii) Four Duos
(iii)   Four Trios

[...]

The duodecimal patterning is fundamental ot the dance layout.  From its title, it is clear that the ballet was conceived as a dance assembly or contest. The score specifies twelve dancers – four male and eight female – and the dance numbers are based on various groups of divisors [...]

Agon was commissioned by Lincoln Kirstein and George Balanchine as the result of a grant made to the New York City Ballet by the Rockefeller Foundation in 1954. When the news was bruited abroad, some persons seemed to think that the result was likely to be a score that, together with Apollo Musagète and Orpheus, would complete a ballet triptych on classical themes. But that is not what happened. The subject chosen was an abstract one, without any semblance of plot: so the conception of the ballet lies closer to Scènes de ballet than to Orpheus.  Stravinsky found a prototype for some of the dance numbers (particularly those in the two middle sections) in the French Court dances of the seventeenth century as prescribed in de Lauze's Apologie de la Danse (1623) and Mersenne's musical examples; and it is said that an engraving in the de Lauze publication showing two trumpeters accompanying a Bransle simple suggested the instrumentation of Stravinsky's own Bransle simple.

Wow I didn't realize that those works were so scattered!  Hey you know I think I just thought of a pet peeve, time to post on that thread... ;D

Well, listened to the piece today, for the second time.  An odd bird, this piece.

Yes, though the solo violin numbers feel to me like a bond back to L'histoire. There is also an obsession with canon which will further underscore his ensuing fascination with Webern . . . .

Quote from: haydnfan on May 23, 2011, 02:30:05 PM
. . . I had read that Agon is diatonic meets 12 tone.  Well I can't hear it, I'll be honest, I don't know much about tonality.  It's beyond me.

It would be easier to hear, if Stravinsky's use of tonality here were a direct matter of Common Practice, or even the "Debussyan stretch" of Common Practice which we hear in L'oiseau de feu or even Petrushka. But here in Agon even the "tonal" areas tend to be dominated by an angular polyphony, and the 'verticals' (one word which Stravinsky employed for chords which are not our traditional third-built triads) are not Common Practice harmonies.

Additionally (or perhaps I should say first of all) Stravinsky scores the piece with marvelously playful and inventive instrumentation — the score lists quite a normally constituted orchestra, with Stravinsky's characteristic addition of piano & harp (very French, that harpe), and with the quite novel addition of the mandolin (very Italian, and I couldn't say offhand whether Stravinsky was aware of Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet, with its brace of mandolin numbers) . . . but most of the textures are intimate and chamber-ish (there's hardly a page scored for the full band).  So it seems to me that the 'weave' of the piece creates so unified an impression, our ears are not invited to draw any sharp distinction between the tonal and atonal elements.

Quote from: Walsh, pp. 368-369They were in Paris for no more than forty-eight hours, but the hours were crowded, and even in one respect decisive.  Boulez played through Stockhausen's Klavierstuck XI in his flat, and later they dined with Giacometti, whom Boulez had asked to draw Stravinsky for the cover of the Agon recording that Rosbaud was due to make just before the Domaine Musical premiere in October . . . .

One thing which intrigues me about the piece is the inspiration.  Why a Ballet?  There is no scenario, just a set of abstract dances which were apparently inspired by illustrations in a 17th century book about dance.  It seems like such a scant fountain of inspiration to tap into.  Listening to the piece without any description I might guess it is a set of etudes for orchestra.

The music does grow on me, there is a big emphasis on horizontal rather than vertical organization and the free counterpoint involving brass instruments is especially attractive to me.  But it does not reach out and grab you like early Stravinsky.  I have to approach it with a high level of attention to get anything out of it.

The mandoline he stole from Schoenberg and his serenade, I assume.   :P

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 08:29:36 AM
One thing which intrigues me about the piece is the inspiration. Why a Ballet? There is no scenario, just a set of abstract dances which were apparently inspired by illustrations in a 17th century book about dance.  It seems like such a scant fountain of inspiration to tap into. Listening to the piece without any description I might guess it is a set of etudes for orchestra.

The music does grow on me, there is a big emphasis on horizontal rather than vertical organization and the free counterpoint involving brass instruments is especially attractive to me.  But it does not reach out and grab you like early Stravinsky.  I have to approach it with a high level of attention to get anything out of it.

The mandoline he stole from Schoenberg and his serenade, I assume.   :P

I can agree with your reaction, which is my reaction to a good deal of his later works, with Threni being an exception.

The influence of Webern mentioned earlier is indeed present. 

But it might be interesting to pose the question to our group: do you hear a story in the pieces?  If it is a "contest" as the title says, do we hear conflicts, winners, laments of losers, etc?

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 08:29:36 AM
. . .  But it does not reach out and grab you like early Stravinsky.  I have to approach it with a high level of attention to get anything out of it.

In my own case, I think this is partly because, as with Webern, blink and you've missed it.

Quote from: Walsh, pp. 308-309The question of subject, though, was not so easily resolved. Neither Kirstein nor Balanchine liked the Nausicaa idea.  It had charm but no outcome, since once Odysseus is welcomed by Nausicaa's father, Alcinous, the princess herself fades out of the story. On the other hand Balanchine's own ideas were becoming more and more grandiose.  He wanted, Kirstein reported, "a ballet which would seem to be the enormous finale of a ballet to end all the ballets the world has ever seen."  One version of this might be "a competition before the gods; the audience are statues; the gods are tired and old; the dancers re-animate them by a series of historic dances [. . .] * courante, bransle, passepied, rigaudon, menuet, etc. etc.  It is as if time called the tune, and the dances which began quite simply in the sixteenth century took fire in the twentieth and exploded." To back up this idea, Kirstein was sending a copy of a recent critical edition of de Lauze's sixteenth-century dance manual, Apologie de la danse, which included music examples by the contemporary theorist Marin Mersenne. None of this met Stravinsky's need for precise specifications, those limitations which, he told Kirstein, "generate the form." So instead he simply washed his hands of subject, and decided to compose a " 'Concerto for the dance' for which George will create a matching choreographic construction." Nevertheless, many details of Balanchine's idea stuck in his mind and in due course found their reflection, suitably transformed, in the new ballet.

* The ellipsis is in the Walsh

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 08:29:36 AM
One thing which intrigues me about the piece is the inspiration.  Why a Ballet?  There is no scenario, just a set of abstract dances which were apparently inspired by illustrations in a 17th century book about dance.  It seems like such a scant fountain of inspiration to tap into.  Listening to the piece without any description I might guess it is a set of etudes for orchestra.

Although Balanchine's earlier collaborations with Stravinsky (e.g., Apollo) did have scenarios, Balanchine also choreographed a great many works that are totally lacking in plot or narrative. This includes a number of IS works to which he set ballets (the IS Violin Concerto, Symphony in 3 Movements, Duo Concertante, the Capriccio which turns up as "Rubies" in the full-length ballet Jewels) as well as works from other composers like the Bach Double Concerto, Tchaikovsky 2nd Concerto, Tchaikovsky Suite #4, Hindemith's Four Temperaments, etc. He also set a number of works that had very distinct plot lines, such as Prokofiev's Prodigal Son and his classic staging of the Nutcracker.

I would say Balanchine's greatest interest was in patterns of human movement as set against music. Perhaps part of the "agon" in "Agon" is the constant counterpoint of the music against the dance. There will be passages where the steps echo the music (e.g., in the castanet dance where two boys on either side of the stage clap the 3/8 rhythm while one girl dances in the stage center), but others where they contradict the music (as in one of the dances for two girls, where the final cadence is musically static, but the dancers' hands mark each beat).

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 08:29:36 AM


The mandoline he stole from Schoenberg and his serenade, I assume.   :P

Rather, I would think it is part of the late Medieval/Renaissance homage aspect of the work.

Certainly the Webernian influence grows in the last half of the work.  At times, however, especially during the Galliarde, I was strongly reminded of the Golden Calf scene from Schoenberg's Moses und Aron.

Quote from: Cato on May 24, 2011, 01:05:27 PM

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 24, 2011, 08:29:36 AM
The mandoline he stole from Schoenberg and his serenade, I assume.   :P

Rather, I would think it is part of the late Medieval/Renaissance homage aspect of the work.

Yes. More than a quarter-century separate the Schoenberg Opus 24 and Agon.

OTOH, it is very likely that Craft was conducting the Serenade about that time . . . so that the deepeding acquaintance with Craft may well have returned the Schoenberg to Igor Fyodorovich's attention.

Still, Cato's point stands, I think.

Quote from: Cato on May 24, 2011, 01:05:27 PMCertainly the Webernian influence grows in the last half of the work.  At times, however, especially during the Galliarde, I was strongly reminded of the Golden Calf scene from Schoenberg's Moses und Aron.

Aye, I think Roman Vlad also mentions the Golden Calf . . . .

Quote from: Walsh, p. 321Balanchine's idea of a contest is on the face of it a highly abstracted, schematic affair involving twelve solo dancers (four male, eight female) in varying combinations whose starting positions are represented by stick men drawn by the composer at appropriate places in the draft plan they drew up together.  Balanchine thought of it as "less a struggle or contest than a measured construction in space, demonstrated by moving bodies set to certain patterns or sequences in rhythm and melody."

Like most of Stravinsky's music, I wasn't much into this and the fragments I did enjoy didn't last too long. I could tell it was written for dancers.

Quote from: Mn Dave on May 25, 2011, 04:34:03 AM
. . . I could tell it was written for dancers.

Why? (Or, as it may be, how?)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2011, 04:35:28 AM
Why? (Or, as it may be, how?)

Oh, the rhythms I guess. I could imagine dancing.

Quote from: Walsh, p. 322. . . The long second part would be a sarabande and gaillarde, in the form of a pas de trois, followed by a string of different types of branle (also pas de trois), and ending with a "Pas de deux," just at the point where that episode usually figures in Romantic ballets.  This would then run into the final part, a more up-to-date set of duos and trios, cast as a quick-moving sequence of angular modern dances culminating in a return to the opening fanfares.

Whether or not Stravinsky planned Agon quite so explicitly that summer of 1954 (and he did certainly know more or less how long it would be), there is no mistaking the resemblance of this musical dramaturgy to the scheme outlined by Kirstein the year before. Balanchine, it is true, had long since abandoned — if he had ever entertained — any idea of Handelian gods surrounded by Baroque statues and an ornate proscenium. He would be content with dancers in rehearsal tights on a bare stage. But Stravinsky was obviously intrigued by the musical concept of antique dances in a hyper-modern setting — a neoclassicism that would transform the modelling process as well as the model.  He duly marked up his De Lauze and, while there are no clear quotations, the sense of allusion — rhythmic as well as melodic — remains extremely strong. We may be a long way from the Pulcinellification of Mersenne, but not so far that the outline of a phrase or the turn of a rhythm cannot sometimes, here and there, be recognized.

Quote from: Mn Dave on May 25, 2011, 04:37:18 AM
Oh, the rhythms I guess. I could imagine dancing.

Bene, bene.

Not every day you run into the word Pulcinellification ; )

But, you would on this thread, of course . . . .

Dave & Davey, have you done, or are you game for more listening to the piece?

Another question, which may or may not be separate: Would it be helpful (or 'helpful'), or would it be intrusive if I were to offer sort of a personal "road map" to the music, number by number?

I don't want to quash other input, nor to have my own impressions 'set the tone' at all.

I've listened to it several times now and it's not like it's particularly difficult to fathom, so I'm probably done with it. However, this doesn't mean I won't participate in these exercises in the future.  :)

Well worthg reading from Alistair Macauley, chief dance critic of the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/arts/dance/25maca.html

Thanks, (poco) Sfz!

Quote from: Alastair MacaulayThe music is 12-tone for strings playing without meter or pulse.

"Without meter or pulse," eh? Was Alastair listening? ; )

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2011, 05:35:46 AM
Thanks, (poco) Sfz!

Was Alastair listening?[/font] ; )

No.

To be fair, more nearly true of the Pas de deux than of aught else in Agon. The meter is 3/4, it's marked Adagio [eighth-note] = 112, and the writing does not set forth any pulse . . . .

Quote from: Alastair Macaulay"Agon" remains a difficult ballet — I recently watched two American companies dance it — and nobody finds it easy to say what it is about.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2011, 05:35:46 AM
Thanks, (poco) Sfz!

"Without meter or pulse," eh? Was Alastair listening? ; )

No question he is on shakier grounds with the music than the choreography in that article, just as I (not knowing the technical vocabulary of dance) would be on shakier grounds with the dance. I nonetheless think the article has more valid insights than not.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2011, 05:52:08 AM
No question he is on shakier grounds with the music than the choreography in that article, just as I (not knowing the technical vocabulary of dance) would be on shakier grounds with the dance. I nonetheless think the article has more valid insights than not.

Agreed, very much enjoyed the entire article. I didn't mean to come across as a nattering nay-sayer . . . .

Quote from: Leon on May 25, 2011, 06:10:52 AM
I have listened to this work many times since it is one of favorite works by Stravinsky.  I always find it surprising when people express difficulty with it since from the first moment I heard it I felt nothing but delight.

This.

Quote from: LeonI've never seen the dance and would love to attend a performance . . .

And this, too : )

Quote from: Leon on May 25, 2011, 06:10:52 AMI've never seen the dance and would love to attend a performance, and will, I'm sure, some day.

This is a major gripe I have.  We have record labels resurrecting composers who are long forgotten and recording symphonies which may have been performed once in 1905 and never heard again, but it is impossible to see major works of Ballet.   For instance, William Schuman wrote interesting scores for Judith and Undertow (for Martha Graham and for the American Ballet Theater) and it is impossible to see them.  I think they were even shown on Television at the time.  Odd that the market can support a zillion DVDs of Swan Lake but cannot support release archival films of modern ballet.

After listening to the work a second time (the last time until this week was in the 1970's), a few more thoughts occurred about the piece.

Why a Greek title for the work, which uses French dances of the early Renaissance?

In one sense, who cares?   $:)   But I suspect that somebody as meticulous as Stravinsky (his color-coded manuscripts are practically artworks themselves) did not choose the title without a reason.

The "contest" can be seen as between Neo-Classicism and 12-tone technique, with the latter (?) winning the compositional struggle.   :o    Knowing that Webern was highly interested in Renaissance polyphony, Stravinsky may have found inspiration in fusing the styles through his own persona.

But something else is happening in Agon.

"Primitivity" so to speak was an aspect of Stravinsky's output, when one considers the prehistoric or folkloric aspects of the Firebird, Rite of Spring, Les Noces, Pribaoutki, etc.   The spare, somewhat primitive nature of Agon would therefore be a logical descendant of this interest, with an ironic twist that of course it uses the "latest advance" in music which, Schoenberg once opined, would give "German music" a certain superiority for the next century!   ;D

Indeed, think how primitive Webern's 12-tone works often are, with their lonely notes paralleling the primitive, abstract art from painters like Mondrian.  Agon would seem to fit in rather neatly with them.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2011, 04:57:02 AM
Would it be helpful (or 'helpful'), or would it be intrusive if I were to offer sort of a personal "road map" to the music, number by number?
[font]

I would find such an offering helpful.  I've listened to the piece twice but am not finding much I can connect or relate to.  This is my first encounter with Stravinsky and 12 tone / atonal music.

I'm with Cato; I'd love to find videos of this and other ballet scores.  I couldn't find even decent program notes.

Quote from: Palmetto on May 25, 2011, 11:14:56 AM
I would find such an offering helpful.  I've listened to the piece twice but am not finding much I can connect or relate to.  This is my first encounter with Stravinsky and 12 tone / atonal music.

I'm with Cato; I'd love to find videos of this and other ballet scores.  I couldn't find even decent program notes.

As I've noted before, the VHS tape called "Balanchine Celebration, vol. 2" includes about 15 minutes from the ballet as performed by the City Ballet with Darcy Bussell as guest soloist in the pas de deux. Missing are the opening and closing sections, so you won't see the marvelous effect of the four men standing with their backs to us at stage rear and "starting" the ballet by turning around, as well as the parallel touch at the very end. If you don't want to pay Amazon for a used copy, at least try scouring your public library.

Here at least are some stills:
http://www.shomler.com/dance/agon/index.htm

Quote from: Cato on May 25, 2011, 10:06:57 AM
After listening to the work a second time (the last time until this week was in the 1970's) . . . .

Zowie, the second time just this week? I am honored! : )

Quote from: Palmetto on May 25, 2011, 11:14:56 AM
I would find such an offering helpful.

I'll put this together probably early-ish tomorrow.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 25, 2011, 04:57:02 AM
Dave & Davey, have you done, or are you game for more listening to the piece?

Another question, which may or may not be separate: Would it be helpful (or 'helpful'), or would it be intrusive if I were to offer sort of a personal "road map" to the music, number by number?

I don't want to quash other input, nor to have my own impressions 'set the tone' at all.

A road map would be excellent!  I have only listened to the piece twice, saving future listening for exactly this kind of thing. :)

On the principle of Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and his wife won't see him for a week — before we spread out the road map, let's contemplate the first step wherewith the wild journey begins ...

Should even back up to First Principles, really. For some of us, the passion for Agon was instaneous, perhaps to a degree instinctual. Some of us, rather, are finding it a bit slippery. My challenge will be to try to help the latter find some "traction," without spiraling into rarefied theory ...

It's been mentioned that Agon contains elements both tonal and atonal. We should consider a little the former, since with Stravinsky, tonal rarely means Common Practice.

Another distinction which is helpful in digging into Agon: For some while prior to Agon, Stravinsky had been "dabbling" in serialism, but not necessarily atonal serialism. What could "tonal serialism" mean?

[ PS: I've pushed the discussion out . . . no one is obliged, of course.  But since the Listening Group has not been formally re-built, there is not another piece on for next week, so that we should have to "clear out" for it. ]

Quote from: Cato on May 25, 2011, 10:06:57 AM

But something else is happening in Agon.

"Primitivity" so to speak was an aspect of Stravinsky's output, when one considers the prehistoric or folkloric aspects of the Firebird, Rite of Spring, Les Noces, Pribaoutki, etc.   The spare, somewhat primitive nature of Agon would therefore be a logical descendant of this interest, with an ironic twist that of course it uses the "latest advance" in music which, Schoenberg once opined, would give "German music" a certain superiority for the next century!   ;D

Indeed, think how primitive Webern's 12-tone works often are, with their lonely notes paralleling the primitive, abstract art from painters like Mondrian.  Agon would seem to fit in rather neatly with them.

"Dripping water music" is how my wife describes some of the things which emanate from the speakers, and the reference to a fabled Chinese torture is deliberate.   :o

Certainly as Agon progresses, the "pointillistic" orchestration, which could be seen as extreme antiphony, approaches the Webernian style.

"I could have composed that" (dripping a few dots over music paper) is the parallel to the complaint of the viewer standing before a "drip" painting in the museum: "I could have done that!"

To which the response is: "But you didn't!"   0:)

The idea here for both arts is that a seeming simplicity, a seeming "primitivity" masks something deeper and more mysterious, inchoate, and perhaps even something unsettling.

And we draw a distinction between primitivism and archaism ; )

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 03:49:15 AM
On the principle of Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and his wife won't see him for a week — before we spread out the road map, let's contemplate the first step wherewith the wild journey begins ...

Should even back up to First Principles, really. For some of us, the passion for Agon was instaneous, perhaps to a degree instinctual. Some of us, rather, are finding it a bit slippery. My challenge will be to try to help the latter find some "traction," without spiraling into rarefied theory ...

It's been mentioned that Agon contains elements both tonal and atonal. We should consider a little the former, since with Stravinsky, tonal rarely means Common Practice.

Another distinction which is helpful in digging into Agon: For some while prior to Agon, Stravinsky had been "dabbling" in serialism, but not necessarily atonal serialism. What could "tonal serialism" mean?

[ PS: I've pushed the discussion out . . . no one is obliged, of course.  But since the Listening Group has not been formally re-built, there is not another piece on for next week, so that we should have to "clear out" for it. ]

Now I wonder if this post is helpful in even the least . . . a shortcoming of trying to type the post on the bus.

I've got another extract from Walsh, though to judge by the progress of the thread, no one apart from myself finds them of interest . . .

Quote from: Walsh, pp. 281-282The Suite was in fact one of the few Schoenberg that he claimed to have heard before (in Venice in 1937). But whereas a quarter-century before he had assured readers of the Daily Mail that "Schoenberg is one of the greatest creative spirits of our age," by the late thirties he was describing him as

Quote from: I.S.a chemist of music more than an artistic creator. His investigations are interesting, since they tend to expand the possibilities of auditory pleasure, but just as with Haba, the discoverer of quarter-tones, they have more to do with the quantity than with the quality of music.

In 1936, Stravinsky had almost certainly not heard any of Schoenberg's serial music, but he had had it described to him, mostly by hostile judges such as Lourié. In the circumstances, his opinion is much what one would expect. Schoenberg had devised a method that involved taking the twelve different notes of the octave, arranging them in a certain order, then using that order—or series—as a fixed template for the melodic and harmonic material of an entire work. Put so crudely, it sounded about as pointless atristically as change-ringing. You could play the series forwards, backwards, or upside down, or the upside-down version backwards, and you could do all these things starting on any note you liked. Every music student has experienced that moment of despair on first hearing Schoenberg "explained" in those terms, that feeling of disbelief that anyone would bother to write, listen to, or study music conceived in such a way. What Craft achieved with Stravinsky was simply what any sensible music teacher would at once see as necessary: he transmitted his own enthusiasm for the actual music, and only then, when pressed, showed how the music and the method interacted—how this particular music came out of this particular set of procedures, exactly as one might do in analyzing a Josquin motet ot a Bach fugue. After all, only a simpleton really imagines that large-scale pieces of music can be written without any structural or thematic scaffolding. The one question that matters is whether the music itself makes one want to fnid out how it is made.

Stravinsky never grew to like Schoenberg as much as Craft did, but as regards its musical substance the scales fell from his ears. The Suite, written in the mid-twenties, is a rich, strongly wrought, if sometimes hard-working piece, not always felicitous in its scoring (for three clarinets, piano, and string trio), but, from the very first chord, musicall compelling. Stravinsky knew at once that it could not be ignored. And suddenly its method began to intrigue him. For much of the day after the first rehearsal, he practiced writing canons—a device fundamental to serialism; and the day after that they dined with Thomas Mann and surely discussed Schoenberg. "Tradition," Stravinsky remarked, "carries the good artist on its shoulder as St Christopher carried the Lord," an observation that fits Schoenberg at least as well as himself. The following Sunday (the 17th of February), he drafted part of the canonic setting of the penultimate verse of "Tomorrow shall be my dancing day," then went to another rehearsal of the Suite. Musically, there is not even a remote similarity between Schoenberg's work and what Stravinsky was writing, yet there cannot be any doubt that Stravinsky was in a sense using the Suite as a model. Soon afterwards, the main theme of the opening emerged, apparently spontaneously, from a phrase of "The maidens came," and for some reason Stravinsky decided to treat it as a series. It has eleven notes, including several duplicates (unlike a true Schoenberg "row," in which there are always twelve different notes), and this lends it a simple, tonal flavor completely unlike any serial melody by Schoenberg. By the time Craft conducted his performance of the Suite on the 24th, the long carol setting, for tenor, two flutes, and a cello, was practically complete in outline. Stravinsky still had no clear idea of what he was writing. He had one three-minute song, one fifteen-minute one, and a fragment of a third, and he had been so absorbed in the intricacies of the work that he had not even noticed, for instance, that his flautists were being expected to play for a quarter of an hour almost without drawing breath. He ahd not decided whether he was writing a song cycle or, if so, how many songs it would contain. Never in his life had he been so detached from any idea of the final product.

"Tomorrow shall be my dancing day" would be the centerpiece of the Cantata, of course.

On the whole, though . . . I'd like to concentrate on the Prelude to Agon, its similarities to the long-before-composed Symphonies of Wind Instruments, and the ways in which it points to the later numbers in the ballet, both "tonal" and atonal.

Is the Prelude tonal? Why or why not?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 05:20:14 AM
On the whole, though . . . I'd like to concentrate on the Prelude to Agon, its similarities to the long-before-composed Symphonies of Wind Instruments, and the ways in which it points to the later numbers in the ballet, both "tonal" and atonal.

Is the Prelude tonal? Why or why not?[/font]

I've listened to it a few times, and I think that Prelude is tonal.  The reason that I think that the Prelude is tonal is that I hear melodies, how can atonal music be melodic?  And also it sounds structured. While 12 tone music is highly structured, to the ear (or my ear specifically) it doesn't sound structured but almost random.  The Prelude doesn't sound that way.  Well there might be certain passages that do sound that way, but most of the prelude has that coherent tonal sound to it.

Quote from: mozartfan on May 26, 2011, 06:28:46 AM
I've listened to it a few times, and I think that Prelude is tonal.  The reason that I think that the Prelude is tonal is that I hear melodies, how can atonal music be melodic?

Certainly it can! Though the question of how it can is a tangent . . . .

Do we hear any triads in the Prelude?

Quote from: Leon on May 26, 2011, 06:35:13 AM
Interesting comparison to Symphonies of Wind Instruments - another Stravinsky work that ranks very high in my estimation.  Regarding the tonal center of the Prelude, I have seen analyses which consider it in C Major (of course, C Major shining through the Stravinsky prism) - but without the score in front of me I cannot support that claim with anything more concrete.

8)

Score or no . . . do you hear any triads in the Prelude, Leon?  I think one could argue that it is "in C" . . . .

I might have lead ears here but I do not hear triads in the prelude.

Quote from: mozartfan on May 26, 2011, 06:42:30 AM
I might have lead ears here but I do not hear triads in the prelude.

Thanks for taking the risk! No, I don't think your ears are lead . . . I don't hear triads, either, not in the harmonies, nor in the melodies (or melodic cells) out of which the Prelude is built.  So how do we argue that the Prelude is "in C"?

Without triads, we cannot have the cadences which establish a C Major, for instance . . . .

Yeah I never felt like we departed from and returned to the home key, which I guess is what tonality is all about.  I have to be careful about associating melody with tonality it seems.

Quote from: Leon on May 26, 2011, 07:00:42 AM
The movement is scalar, and seems to imply a tonal center - and is almost entirely vertical, so any triads would be coincidental with the lines converging.  But, I definitely hear a key implied.

Good!

Curiously, almost all my listening to Miles has been since the last time I dug into Agon . . . so (may be wacky of me) but I am imagining a loose synergy between this means of determining a "key" in the Prelude, and "mid-career Miles" with his emphasis on modal improvising rather than playing around chord changes (in the jazz parlance).

The repeated note in trumpet I at the start is C, but the "chord" is (from the bottom up) F, B, C (and each pitch is represented in one octave alone . . . and the minor 2nd is a compound interval, i.e. a minor 9th).  So we've got both the "fifth-ey" sound which is an echo of mediæval (and older?) ceremony, and the dissonance which will permeate so much of the ballet, and will trend towards the 12-tone elements.

Towards the close of the Prelude, when the repeated-note figure comes back (in horn I) it is not C but D-flat (that semitone relation), but in the subsequent imitative play, it sorts out and "resolves" to a "sort of C chord" (C, D, F, G).

Quote from: Leon on May 26, 2011, 07:11:34 AM
This is from an earlier post of mine:

Quote from: WalshIt has a galliard in C major built round a strict canon between harp and mandolin with high flutes and double-bass harmonics, propped up by a thick C major chord for solo viola and cellos which breaks every known rule of instrumental voicing. It has an atonal 'Bransle simple' which opens with a rapid canon for two trumpets, and a nearly atonal 'Bransle gay' with a castanet ostinato. It starts and ends in a Stravinskian C major, and its four sections or sequences are linked by tonally fixed interludes which tick over like a car engine while the dancers take up their new positions.

Which was written by Stephen Walsh, and no doubt what I was remembering.

Aye, that canon is in a number during the 'second quarter' of the contest.

Well, but in looking at the Prelude/Coda & Interludes . . . I think we should find that diatonic is a shade simplistic!

We certainly find all twelve chromatic notes of the octave in the Prelude (and we have both F & F# in the very first five measures).

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 07:27:31 AM
Well, but in looking at the Prelude/Coda & Interludes . . . I think we should find that diatonic is a shade simplistic!

We certainly find all twelve chromatic notes of the octave in the Prelude (and we have both F & F# in the very first five measures).

Ain't that the truth!   8)

Yes, the Prelude may not actually be serial/dodecaphonic (I have come across "Bonnie Jacobi's" essay online, which seems to have been part of her Ph.D. work) but is chromatic in the spirit of e.g. Hartmann.  So yes, Leon,it might have a quasi-tonal feel as a result.

And over the course of the Prelude, the overall harmonic arc of the fanfare blocks is (C) - D^b - C

I think there's a large range of music between strictly tonal and strictly serial.

Quote from: mozartfan on May 26, 2011, 08:58:19 AM
I think there's a large range of music between strictly tonal and strictly serial.

Aye.  And, of course, Stravinsky "trending chromatic" here is not any novelty (viz. Le sacre) . . . even the Prelude, with its deliberate antiquing echoes, is less "white-key diatonic" than many a score from his neoclassical phase (and his penchant for chromatic pungency had frequent play even in those "white-key" days).

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 08:56:15 AM
And over the course of the Prelude, the overall harmonic arc of the fanfare blocks is (C) - D^b - C

I cast that opening C in parens for two reasons:

The harmony underpinning the initial repeated-note tattoo in trumpet I has F in the bass — and while the horn duet that ensues cadences on octave C's, the "closing chord" in the double-reeds has an F in the bass (corno inglese).

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 09:19:09 AM
I cast that opening C in parens for two reasons:

The harmony underpinning the initial repeated-note tattoo in trumpet I has F in the bass — and while the horn duet that ensues cadences on octave C's, the "closing chord" in the double-reeds has an F in the bass (corno inglese).

Why doesn't that make it in F?

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 09:27:23 AM
Why doesn't that make it in F?

Well, is an F in the bass the determining factor?

Quote from: Leon on May 26, 2011, 09:31:24 AM
. . . Stravinsky seems untroubled by issues of "integrity of the process" which plagued Boulez almost into inactivity, and kept his hand in the music much more than the strict serialsts would. 

All to his credit I might add.

Untroubled by the the "issues" . . . and the integrity of his work bears out his equanimity.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 09:32:53 AM

Well, is an F in the bass the determining factor?

The closing chord would normally be the tonic, and so you are proposing the piece closes with a dissonance in the bass?

In any case, I didn't listen to the piece super-carefully, but I didn't get the feeling that there was much in the way of functional harmony there.  It sounded sort of modal to me.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 09:38:09 AM
The closing chord would normally be the tonic, and so you are proposing the piece closes with a dissonance in the bass?

Your argument were sound enough in Common Practice (and your objection is completely reasonable), but . . .

There is no F major triad.

The opening harmony is (as mentioned earlier) F - B - C . . . which does not establish F major.

The opening trumpet I line starts with a repeated C, and (insofar as we treat it as functioning diatonically) if it goes anywhere, it seems to wind into a minor.

Most of the melodic play in this block lives in C Lydian (i.e. a raised fourth degree, F#, which defeats any assertion of F major).

The double-reed "chord" which I mentioned as closing this opening "period" is a "stacked fifth-ey" vertical, F - G - C.

It looks as if part of the argument for this section being "in C" is the primacy of that pitch in the highest (and timbrally strongest) voice.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 09:38:09 AM
In any case, I didn't listen to the piece super-carefully, but I didn't get the feeling that there was much in the way of functional harmony there.  It sounded sort of modal to me.

Yes, indeed.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 09:46:59 AM
Your argument were sound enough in Common Practice (and your objection is completely reasonable), but . . .

There is no F major triad.

The opening harmony is (as mentioned earlier) F - B - C . . . which does not establish F major.

The opening trumpet I line starts with a repeated C, and (insofar as we treat it as functioning diatonically) if it goes anywhere, it seems to wind into a minor.

Most of the melodic play in this block lives in C Lydian (i.e. a raised fourth degree, F#, which defeats any assertion of F major).

The double-reed "chord" which I mentioned as closing this opening "period" is a "stacked fifth-ey" vertical, F - G - C.

It looks as if part of the argument for this section being "in C" is the primacy of that pitch in the highest (and timbrally strongest) voice.

Well, the argument for the piece being in C seems to boil down to C being the most frequently sounded note.  It seems like harmony when it is recognizable has more fourths than thirds, reminiscent of Schoenberg's first Chamber Symphony.   Not much hint of anything resolving towards C, and , which would be my ad-hoc definition of "tonal."

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 26, 2011, 09:53:45 AM
Well, the argument for the piece being in C seems to boil down to C being the most frequently sounded note.

Well, I think I've confused you by concentrating (in this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14462.msg518985.html#msg518985) post) on mm. 1-7 of the Prelude. I think any of us would hear the final cadence in bar 60 of the Prelude as centered on C.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 10:01:48 AM
Well, I think I've confused you by concentrating (in this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14462.msg518985.html#msg518985) post) on mm. 1-7 of the Prelude. I think any of us would hear the final cadence in bar 60 of the Prelude as centered on C.

Ok, I'll have to listen to it again.

Exactly. Abandon hope all ye who expect functional Common Practice harmony here . . . .

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 10:07:05 AM
Exactly. Abandon all hope all ye who expect functional Common Practice harmony here . . . .

Well, not all hope, not in this case . . . .

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 10:12:28 AM
Well, not all hope, not in this case . . . .

Just being fussy of a freqently mis-translated passage.  Lasciate ogni speranze, voi ch'entrate not Lasciate la speranza, tutti ch'entrate.

Yes, i' faith, a good fussy.

I think the 'Listening Group' is a grand idea, but if this discussion is in a beginners forum then I've got a lot farther to go than I thought.  I'm not sure what I expected; is this similar to previous ones?

Quote from: Palmetto on May 26, 2011, 04:04:41 PM
I think the 'Listening Group' is a grand idea, but if this discussion is in a beginners forum then I've got a lot farther to go than I thought.  I'm not sure what I expected; is this similar to previous ones?

Uh no these guys are crazy! :D  This is not like the other ones, you should see the Vivaldi discussion, it was very simple to follow no technical discussion.  Don't worry you're not alone in feeling that way. :)

We are daft, Palmetto. But ask the questions you wish to ask, make the observations you feel inspired to, and we looneys will adapt.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 26, 2011, 04:36:30 PM
We are daft, Palmetto. But ask the questions you wish to ask, make the observations you feel inspired to, and we looneys will adapt.

Did somebody mention daft loonies?

(http://images.free-extras.com/pics/d/daffy_duck_looney_tunes-1050.gif)

The link e.g. to Bonnie Jacobi's Ph.D. paper on analyzing the tonal vs. serial aspects of Agon no doubt could seem a bit much to beginners.  But you never know: better to overestimate rather than underestimate your audience!

I can't find any beginner's explanations for many of the terms being used here.  The only reference I could find to 'First Principles' was this example of Excellence in Obfuscation:

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=491&loc=r

I can't find an definition of a chord that makes sense to this non-musician; something about thirds and fifths.  (I believe a fifth or two would be very helpful right about now, but not in the musical sense.)  I assume without that, I'm not going to comprehend what a triad is (besides a region in North Carolina).

Most of what I've found uses snippets of what I'll ignorantly call 'sheet music' to illustrate what it's talking about.  (Yes, I'm sure I grossly misused that term, but in my ignorance I don't know what else to call the visual depiction of just two or three notes.)  I'm sure these make sense to those who know how to read them.

I have -GOT- to finish this SC history so I can free up my reading schedule!  Jumping between Wikipedia articles is getting me nowhere.  I'm in danger of slipping back into analysis mode at the expense of the music, missing the forest for the trees.

EDITED - I just realized I don't need introductory references to classical music; I need an introduction to MUSIC, PERIOD.  These terms, concepts, and constructs apply to all music, don't they?

Quote from: mozartfan on May 26, 2011, 06:28:46 AM
The reason that I think that the Prelude is tonal is that I hear melodies, how can atonal music be melodic?  And also it sounds structured. While 12 tone music is highly structured, to the ear (or my ear specifically) it doesn't sound structured but almost random.  The Prelude doesn't sound that way.

I hear melodies, but as brief, independent, random snippets.  That's not just for the prelude; as I understand preludes, it's almost like a movie trailer - bits and pieces of what's to come.  But I hear the entire piece that way; little seems to relate to anything that came before.  I realize this was written for a series of dances; should I listen to this as a collection of separate short works instead of a whole?

Quote from: Palmetto on May 27, 2011, 04:20:10 AM
I hear melodies, but as brief, independent, random snippets.  That's not just for the prelude; as I understand preludes, it's almost like a movie trailer - bits and pieces of what's to come.  But I hear the entire piece that way; little seems to relate to anything that came before.  I realize this was written for a series of dances; should I listen to this as a collection of separate short works instead of a whole?

In short, yes. There is a sense in which Stravinsky has come full circle back to Le sacre, which similarly is essentially a sequence of numbers, with the occasional thematic interconnection between this or that pair.

Do you hear the Coda at the end of Agon referring to anything earlier, Palmetto?

Leon, thanks for changing the link.  The first site still took too much for granted, introducing terms without adequate explanation (major, minor, perfect).  The first three examples in the scales sound different but looked like they were written the same way; I could see the added interval markings beneath the notes but couldn't distinguish a difference in the notes themselves.  At first glance, the second site looks more basic, more fitting for my current level.

I notice you also clarified your earlier post.  Thanks.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 27, 2011, 04:43:39 AM

Do you hear the Coda at the end of Agon referring to anything earlier, Palmetto?

Not by the time I get there.  It's like watching 'The Big Sleep' - there's so much going on I lose track of what came before.

And . . . the second time you listen to the whole?

What do you remember of the journey?  For even at the end of The Big Sleep, you must remember "She fell into my lap standing up" scene . . . .

Listen to the brass in the first movement and the final movement.

I've just listened to the whole thing for the first time --- not very attentive, though, but the last thing that can be said about it is that it lacks meter and pulse.  :)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 27, 2011, 05:18:29 AM
And . . . the second time you listen to the whole?

And the third time, too.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 27, 2011, 05:18:29 AM
What do you remember of the journey?  For even at the end of The Big Sleep, you must remember "She fell into my lap standing up" scene . . . .

Wanting to see the physical  movements that it originally accompanied.  I think (perhaps foolishly) that a ballet score is half of a whole, that there's a synergy lacking when presenting either video or audio portion alone, like viewing the Grand Canyon with one eye closed.

I know, you were asking for a musical impression, but I just didn't find anything exciting or memorable.  I remember the brass mozartfan mentions, but mostly as, 'Oh, hey; a new movement is starting."  I didn't remember enough from the first time I heard it to pick up on it again later.

I going to run it again, this time listening to movements independent of each other, and with mozartfan's brass suggestions.

Lesson learned - it was a mistake downloading this as a single .MP3.  I can't tell where the individual movements begin or end with any certainty.  Looking at the sequences listed for several albums wasn't any help; I don't get why they list a prelude fourth or why there are two codas.  I don't know if what I've got matches the play sequences listed for the albums, or if I'm hearing the movements in the order Stravinsky intended.  Clearly I need to pull down separate movements in the future, if only to facilitate coherent conversation.

Lesson learned - it's easier to retain impressions if I keep notes as I go.

So here are the notes I took during back-to-back listenings.  Since I can't tell when the movements begin or end with any precision, I'm stuck referring to times.  These are simple impressions; I apologize for the lack of depth and crudity of the comments.  Remarks in parenthesis indicate uncertainty on my part.

0:00 - Brass; annoying (harp?); brass melody again; low strings; annoying harp melody, repeated by (woodwinds?); annoying strings; brass tripping over itself, then quieter.

1:44 - Frenetic, rushed strings; annoying (flute?) and brass notes.  Brass and woodwinds chasing their tails. 

3:06 - More frenetic strings dominate; almost seasick.

4:06 - Martial sounding brass and drums.  Similar to previous brass line at 0:00

4:20 - Mostly drums, other instruments almost too low to hear or identify.

4:58 - Low (brass?)  Circus, clumsy clowns.  Something amusing that goes 'tinkle-tinkle-tinkle' several times.

6:00 - (Flutes?  Woodwinds?  Harp?)  Graceful.  I actually enjoyed this one.

7:14 - (Harp?) and brass again; fewer instruments than at 4:58, but enough to revive the 'clumsy clown' impression.

8:33 -  Martial-sounding drums and brass again.  I can pick up bits of brass I've heard earlier.  Gives way to quite drums similar to 4:20, then brass resumes around 9:26

10:15 - Clicking (drumsticks?)  Something being struck against something else, and a flute or horn. 

11:24 - Brass and very annoying strings, sandwiched around an unpleasant piano around 12:09.

12:50 - Drums, brass repeats same earlier melody as 0:00 and 4:06

13:15 - Quiet drumming (I had to firewall the volume); eventually low strings.  No discernable melody or rhythm.  Longest movement? 

17:15 - Single horn and something being strummed or plucked (harp?); martial rhythm, then horn and strumming again.

18:16 - Plucking or strumming; different melody?  Oriental sounding, although I don't know what sounds gave me that impression.

19:00 - Strident drums, very disturbing after the previous minute; then plucking / strumming again.  Unpleasant strings.

20:35 - Okay, there's the brass and strings repeated from the beginning.

All in all, nothing I'd want to hear again.  Glad I didn't spend much on it.  Let the flaming begin.

Quote from: Palmetto on June 01, 2011, 09:00:06 AM
All in all, nothing I'd want to hear again.

Well, you gave it a good shot.

Palmetto, is this your first exposure to atonal music?

Quote from: mozartfan on June 01, 2011, 09:12:02 AM
Palmetto, is this your first exposure to atonal music?

I assume so; if I've heard other atonal music I didn't recognize it as such.  Perhaps in some of the works suggested in earlier discussions; Mirror Image linked to a choral work I refused to confirm or deny having heard.  Does pop or rock have atonal equivalents?  I don't know the technical difference between tonal and atonal yet.  I haven't grasped 'being in a key' or having a 'tonic' as even intellectual concepts yet, much less having practical auditory recognition of such, so I don't comprehend what it means to lack one.  I'm becoming convinced that while playing an instrument isn't crucial to comprehending art music, the lack of that experience is a major hindrance.

I think it was more the disjointed, apparently unrelated movements.  I couldn't find much to tie it all together.  It also felt like a 'concept car, 'concrete canoe' or other experimental engineering project; let's push the bounds, but very little of what we create will have practical use or enter production.

Just one idjit's opinions.  It won't keep me from Ludwig's 6th next week.

Quote from: Leon on June 01, 2011, 10:32:07 AM
Sonic Youth or The Pixies might be the pop/rock equivalents to atonal honking.

I've never heard either group, although I've at least heard OF Sonic Youth.

You scarcely find any atonality in pop music . . . it is certainly at odds with the intuitive ways of playing guitar or electric bass, and most pop musicians are slaves to eay technique ; )

Offhand, the first truly atonal music on a pop release that comes to mind, is the title track of Weasels Ripped My Flesh.

Quote from: Leon on June 01, 2011, 10:55:38 AM
There is a form of rock, Noise Rock  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_rock) or Noise Punk, of which Sonic Youth is an example (moreso earlier in their career than now) - in which atonality is definitely a part of the style.

The words 'noise' and 'punk' aren't exactly encouraging to my middle-of-the-road ears.  I think I'll stick with the plateful I've loaded up at this buffet, and leave those genres for another time (much further down the road)  ;)

Quote from: Leon on June 01, 2011, 10:55:38 AM
There is a form of rock, Noise Rock  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_rock) or Noise Punk, of which Sonic Youth is an example (moreso earlier in their career than now) - in which atonality is definitely a part of the style.

I like Sonic Youth. I especially admired Daydream Nation. There are some great songs on that album.

Thanks to all who took part!