Yea, I'm sure no one can accuse Ferneyhough of being "cheezee"! ;D (cheeeze!)
I have the two Arditti discs, one with SQs 1-3, the other with SQ No.4, a guitar piece, double-bass piece, and violin concerto. I also haves Funerailles on an Erato disc.
Does anyone have a Ferneyhough score? I hear his paper looks similar to the "score" shown by Josquin in his Diner thread. His music has a kind of improv sound to it, and I wonder if this is what makes him so "complex": the total control over ever parameter, so that even if someone is only playing a single note, F. could be directing the player in various ways?
The first SQ from 1969, Sonatas for String Quartet, is a forty-minute mass of archepeligo?-like communication. There's nothing particularly scary about it, though, for its time, it must have been unique (no one was writing "long" SQs in those days). By the time of SQ No.2, ten years later, we have our true introduction to the Ferneyhough sound, which, I can only describe as "a lot of stuff going on at once". By the time I first heard it (mid '90s) I must admit that whatever seemed outre about it when it was written seemed par for the course for me. Ferneyhough doesn't write outer space stuff like Xenakis, but seems more like the Boulez of his 1949 SQ Livre pour quatour: just a whole lot of busy busy notes. The SQ No.3 seems to take No.2 and expand upon it (much like Bartok's No.4 expands on No.3). I've enjoyed this Arditti disc for at least ten years, and it is always my go to when I'm in need of something highly complex.
The other DisquesMontaigne album features SQ No.4, with soprano, which, for me, works (not always a fan of the singing stuff). It buzzes and sizzles like shooting steam... yea, it's a hot mess!... but it continues in the same vein as the previous SQs, to my delight.
However, the guitar piece Kurze Schatten II is unbelievable. As a guitar player I can tell you that this piece is dynamite! Ferneyhough definitely goes over the top in complexity here, giving no mercy. I think it is the most complex guitar music I have heard, and it comes of as twines of DNA strands wriggling through each other. The double-bass piece, also, is quite impressive, though no match for Xenakis' Theraps.
The "violin concerto" Terrain, scored for a Varese-style wind ensemble with double-bass, is very successful, translating Ferneyhough's style to a more extrovert scoring. The same goes for Funerailles, from the seventies, which has splendiferous harp work.
One of the hallmarks of Ferneyhough's style is written pieces in two parts, as if writing the same piece over again from a differnet point of view, which suits me just fine.
I can't say that I'm all that eager to explore Ferneyhough's Time and Motion Studies, or anything else really, for that matter. I've heard sort of bad things about Shadowtime, and, frankly, at this point I like to keep it in the string family (I would like to hear the String Trio). As long as I just keep it to what I have, Ferneyhough will remain in my Top10 for years to come.
I have a few scores and recordings of Ferneyhough and he is a composer I respect, although I was much more into his music in the late 90s.
Ferneyhough has the stance of writing music with 200% information on it, in the hope that even with unavoidable interpretation and less-than-perfect decoding on the part of the performer it can be played at 100% of what he imagined. This results in scores that are particularly dense, but also quite great to look at. This is part of an approach to the instrumentalist that is not very typical. If you can find them, read the comments of Pierre-Yves Artaud about Unity Capsule.
Here are some sample scores:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score)
http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6634w.pdf (http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6634w.pdf)
http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6620w.pdf (http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6620w.pdf)
Quote from: petrArch on December 12, 2009, 01:42:37 PM
Ferneyhough has the stance of writing music with 200% information on it, in the hope that even with unavoidable interpretation and less-than-perfect decoding on the part of the performer it can be played at 100% of what he imagined.
I like that assessment. (And at least one or two friends have said something similar, although not as concisely.)
And thanks for posting those score links. His really have to be seen to be believed.
--Bruce
Been listening to this great collection of BF Chamber music
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TtvV5l-xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
it has the first recordings of "Coloratura" and "Allgebrah". both engaging pieces as well as some older works like the "Trittico per GS"
Snyprr:However, the guitar piece Kurze Schatten II is unbelievable. As a guitar player I can tell you that this piece is dynamite! Ferneyhough definitely goes over the top in complexity here, giving no mercy. I think it is the most complex guitar music I have heard, and it comes of as twines of DNA strands wriggling through each other.
One of the hallmarks of Ferneyhough's style is written pieces in two parts, as if writing the same piece over again from a different point of view, which suits me just fine.
I can't say that I'm all that eager to explore Ferneyhough's Time and Motion Studies, or anything else really, for that matter. I've heard sort of bad things about Shadowtime, and, frankly, at this point I like to keep it in the string family (I would like to hear the String Trio). As long as I just keep it to what I have, Ferneyhough will remain in my Top10 for years to come.
Some of the music in Shadowtime is in fact derived from that guitar piece, Snyprrr, and a lot of the music in it is instrumental. In its philosophical range, the "opera" (it's more like, say, Norgard's Nuit des hommes than anything you'd normally consider "operatic") resembles his earlier vocal/orchestral piece Transit, the first music I heard by him back in the mid-70s. The biggest stumbling block (unless one seeks harmonious consonance!) is probably Charles Bernstein's libretto, which might require a lifetime of reading Benjamin to understand in retrospect and is resolutely PoMo. Accept that it's about aspects of catastrophic modernity, liminal experience and the shadows of the past, or what René Girard has called violence and the sacred, and you can just listen, not too much encumbered by the need for dramatic coherence, as with Transit.
P.S. I recommend this as a brilliant introduction to Shadowtime -
http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2005/Jul-Dec05/ferneyhough0907.htm
Quote from: mjwal on August 26, 2010, 05:42:24 AM
Snyprr:However, the guitar piece Kurze Schatten II is unbelievable. As a guitar player I can tell you that this piece is dynamite! Ferneyhough definitely goes over the top in complexity here, giving no mercy. I think it is the most complex guitar music I have heard, and it comes of as twines of DNA strands wriggling through each other.
One of the hallmarks of Ferneyhough's style is written pieces in two parts, as if writing the same piece over again from a different point of view, which suits me just fine.
I can't say that I'm all that eager to explore Ferneyhough's Time and Motion Studies, or anything else really, for that matter. I've heard sort of bad things about Shadowtime, and, frankly, at this point I like to keep it in the string family (I would like to hear the String Trio). As long as I just keep it to what I have, Ferneyhough will remain in my Top10 for years to come.
Some of the music in Shadowtime is in fact derived from that guitar piece, Snyprrr, and a lot of the music in it is instrumental. In its philosophical range, the "opera" (it's more like, say, Norgard's Nuit des hommes than anything you'd normally consider "operatic") resembles his earlier vocal/orchestral piece Transit, the first music I heard by him back in the mid-70s. The biggest stumbling block (unless one seeks harmonious consonance!) is probably Charles Bernstein's libretto, which might require a lifetime of reading Benjamin to understand in retrospect and is resolutely PoMo. Accept that it's about aspects of catastrophic modernity, liminal experience and the shadows of the past, or what René Girard has called violence and the sacred, and you can just listen, not too much encumbered by the need for dramatic coherence, as with Transit.
P.S. I recommend this as a brilliant introduction to Shadowtime -
http://www.musicweb-international.com/SandH/2005/Jul-Dec05/ferneyhough0907.htm
I am a guitarist also, and I just perused PetrArch's scores and saw
Kurze Schatten II and thought I might try a few "measures", haha. I have the Montaigne recording, and, yes.if you say it's the mostest, I'll have to believe you. I am glad that when I first listened to it, in my brain I wasn't overwhelmed (meaning, I could see how one cooould play it, but I don't know if I could spend that amount of time on it). It is one quite crisp piece, though, eh?
We'll have to chat sometime about zee guitar.
Oh, I don't say it's the mostest, but it is intriguing, provocative (also in the literal sense of calling forth voices), returnable to. As to the guitar, as a non-musician I know nothing (zilch) about it - but I do like the sounds it can make.
Has his Plötzlichkeit ("suddenness, unexpectedness, abruptness, unpredictability") been recorded? (http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/gpbfansmilyf.gif) (http://www.millan.net)
http://www.youtube.com/v/JGUvn_OkSfw
Quote from: petrarch on December 12, 2009, 01:42:37 PM
Here are some sample scores:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score)
http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6634w.pdf (http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6634w.pdf)
http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6620w.pdf (http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/pdfs/6620w.pdf)
The last two links are dead.
Quote from: Sylph on April 20, 2011, 05:49:19 AM
The last two links are dead.
How dooo you learn to write like that? :o ???
Quote from: snyprrr on April 20, 2011, 05:37:17 PM
How dooo you learn to write like that? :o ???
Like what?
Quote from: Sylph on April 20, 2011, 08:19:13 PM
Like what?
I'm mean Ferneyhough,... that
Unity Capsule score is mindboggling!
I sent Kurze Schatten II to a guitarist friend to hope to find some middle ground with our tastes, and his messages ended with "i need to comfort eat now", then he went offline :-\
Anyway, an excuse to bump, also hope his latest quartets will be commercially recorded soon :)
Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:26:30 AM
I sent Kurze Schatten II to a guitarist friend to hope to find some middle ground with our tastes, and his messages ended with "i need to comfort eat now", then he went offline :-\
Anyway, an excuse to bump, also hope his latest quartets will be commercially recorded soon :)
Somewhere???... I read, I think Neos or Aeon is recording the Cycle (with the Arditti of course),... that's going to be...ohhh boy, that's gonna be outrageous.
Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:26:30 AM
I sent Kurze Schatten II to a guitarist friend to hope to find some middle ground with our tastes, and his messages ended with "i need to comfort eat now", then he went offline :-\
Anyway, an excuse to bump, also hope his latest quartets will be commercially recorded soon :)
About the guitarist,... really guy??? c'mon,... btw, I just found the mother lode of avant classical guitar, will Post shortly.
Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:26:30 AM
I sent Kurze Schatten II to a guitarist friend to hope to find some middle ground with our tastes, and his messages ended with "i need to comfort eat now", then he went offline :-\
Anyway, an excuse to bump, also hope his latest quartets will be commercially recorded soon :)
I'm really ready now for the Arditti set... any... day... now!
Intrigued by the comments, I perused this score recently:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score)
The challenge is this: lets have Ferneyhough listen to 5 performances of this work. One performance will have 10 errors, another 15, another 25, and another 35. But one will follow his score perfectly.
Would he be able to identify the perfect performance?
I do wonder about that! Only an actual experiment would answer the question, of course. Perhaps his powers of concentration are so great that the answer is yes!
Quote from: Cato on August 09, 2012, 04:04:03 AM
Intrigued by the comments, I perused this score recently:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13703271/Ferneyhough-Brian-Unity-Capsule-Full-Score)
The challenge is this: lets have Ferneyhough listen to 5 performances of this work. One performance will have 10 errors, another 15, another 25, and another 35. But one will follow his score perfectly.
Would he be able to identify the perfect performance?
I do wonder about that! Only an actual experiment would answer the question, of course. Perhaps his powers of concentration are so great that the answer is yes!
From what I've read of Ferneyhough's writings on music, it seems that his intention is somewhat different from encouraging a purely accurate performance. He appears to regard the incredible level of detail in his scores as more an attempt to force the performer into an attempt at a kind of post-Lisztian transcendental virtuosity, and to regard the absolute accuracy of a performance as less important than conveying the character of the music successfully.
Quote from: edward on August 09, 2012, 05:31:26 AM
From what I've read of Ferneyhough's writings on music, it seems that his intention is somewhat different from encouraging a purely accurate performance. He appears to regard the incredible level of detail in his scores as more an attempt to force the performer into an attempt at a kind of post-Lisztian transcendental virtuosity, and to regard the absolute accuracy of a performance as less important than conveying the character of the music successfully.
Thank you! I had an impression that the scores might be more guidelines than actual etched-in-stone instructions.
So performances could in fact vary widely.
Quote from: edward on August 09, 2012, 05:31:26 AM
From what I've read of Ferneyhough's writings on music, it seems that his intention is somewhat different from encouraging a purely accurate performance. He appears to regard the incredible level of detail in his scores as more an attempt to force the performer into an attempt at a kind of post-Lisztian transcendental virtuosity, and to regard the absolute accuracy of a performance as less important than conveying the character of the music successfully.
This.
Quote from: Cato on August 09, 2012, 04:04:03 AM
The challenge is this: lets have Ferneyhough listen to 5 performances of this work. One performance will have 10 errors, another 15, another 25, and another 35. But one will follow his score perfectly.
Would he be able to identify the perfect performance?
I do wonder about that! Only an actual experiment would answer the question, of course. Perhaps his powers of concentration are so great that the answer is yes!
Anecdotally, in a hallway discussion about tempo, rhythmic complexity and irrational values with composer Emmanuel Nunes during an intermission in his composition masterclasses, I and some fellow attendees ended up posing a series of interesting challenges to the composer: We would choose a tempo (say, 85 bpm) and a value (say, septuplets), which Nunes would then proceed to replicate after a few seconds of mental preparation; he would signal us when he was ready to start the rhythmic figure, at which point we would start a stopwatch; when he was done counting and beating the notes, we stopped the stopwatch. All of his figures--we did maybe a dozen--were accurate to within a couple of hundredths of a second.
During another masterclass session with Nunes, we were analysing a passage in one of his orchestral works, and three of us were at the piano to play a big chord (it was perhaps a 15-note chord that included the total chromatic) and then discuss how it sounded. The noteworthy detail is that we played the chord, and after a couple of seconds of listening to it he mentioned there was a c# missing--and indeed, we forgot to play that c# note. There was nothing characteristic about the chord or the role of the c# in the chord that made it stand out in any particular way.
Quote from: Lethevich on February 18, 2012, 11:26:30 AM
I sent Kurze Schatten II to a guitarist friend to hope to find some middle ground with our tastes, and his messages ended with "i need to comfort eat now", then he went offline :-\
Yes, even I would say that! :D
The notes themselves aren't excessively challenging, I don't think, but the challenging part is the rhythm. I've still never gotten quite used to rhythm on that scale of complexity- it's like a completely different language. Odd rhythms aren't difficult, but when you subdivide them to that extent, it gets insane. I probably would have learned to play his guitar stuff by now, but I don't have enough interest in his music to do so. Not to mention, I don't like changing the tuning on my guitar.
Anyone listen to the most complex piece of music ever written?
La Terre est un Homme
http://www.youtube.com/v/qxbpF_aW4vU
Strangely, the only Ferneyhough piece I like. Maybe not so strange, since I prefer orchestral music.
I also have the score, which throughout features around 70 staves per page, with instruments playing completely different stuff.
Quote from: Greg on August 10, 2012, 01:21:28 PM
Anyone listen to the most complex piece of music ever written?
La Terre est un Homme
http://www.youtube.com/v/qxbpF_aW4vU
Strangely, the only Ferneyhough piece I like. Maybe not so strange, since I prefer orchestral music.
Mr.
Xenakis might beg to differ! ;D
http://www.youtube.com/v/TSZOAulo82U
Mr.
Ligeti also!
http://www.youtube.com/v/y7xw-0xArcY
Quote from: Cato on August 10, 2012, 01:53:38 PM
Mr. Xenakis might beg to differ! ;D
Mr. Ligeti also!
I have all 3 scores and I'm not sure what you mean. Xenakis has the advantage in having used stochastic formulas for his ST works, but seriously, neither score compares to the complexities of La Terre est un Homme. This piece is way more complex than it sounds. I'll post comparisons in a minute...
Quote from: Greg on August 10, 2012, 03:09:40 PM
I have all 3 scores and I'm not sure what you mean. Xenakis has the advantage in having used stochastic formulas for his ST works, but seriously, neither score compares to the complexities of La Terre est un Homme. This piece is way more complex than it sounds. I'll post comparisons in a minute...
That was my puckish point! 0:)
Xenakis
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/ibanezmonsterg/Xenakis.jpg)
Ligeti
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/ibanezmonsterg/Ligeti.jpg)
Ferneyhough
(http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz257/ibanezmonsterg/Ferneyhough.jpg)
Quote from: Cato on August 10, 2012, 03:26:01 PM
That was my puckish point! 0:)
Yeah, with that much complexity, it ends up sounding like a mass of sustain!
Quote from: Greg on August 10, 2012, 03:27:42 PM
Yeah, with that much complexity, it ends up sounding like a mass of sustain!
Would you say the score is more impressive than the aural result?
I've heard a couple of people claim that when the RSNO played Le terre est un homme one of the trombonists decided to insert his own rendition of 'We do like to be beside the seaside' in the middle of the textures. The composer was allegedly most unimpressed.
I think Ferneyhough's style works best in solo or small instrumental group pieces; the (two) works I've heard for orchestra do not have the clarity that I hear in, say, the string quartets, where the jaggedly complex lines do come through clearly, making him seem to me a very traditional modernist.
Quote from: edward on August 10, 2012, 06:45:15 PM
I've heard a couple of people claim that when the RSNO played Le terre est un homme one of the trombonists decided to insert his own rendition of 'We do like to be beside the seaside' in the middle of the textures. The composer was allegedly most unimpressed.
LOL! :D
Quote from: Cato on August 10, 2012, 05:55:16 PM
Would you say the score is more impressive than the aural result?
Yes, even though I do enjoy listening to it.
Quote from: Greg on August 10, 2012, 01:21:28 PM
Odd rhythms aren't difficult, but when you subdivide them to that extent, it gets insane. I probably would have learned to play his guitar stuff by now, but I don't have enough interest in his music to do so. Not to mention, I don't like changing the tuning on my guitar.
I'd like to take a time out for our sponsor,... ME!, haha,... and bring in that guitar piece I've been working on (aye, for about 2 years now!!). Being a lifelong guitarist (albeit not classically trained), and a seeking searching soul, I am striving in this guitar piece for a certain something which I like to exemplify with the incredible success of the Xenakis solo percussionist piece
Rebonds(described as Xenakis-meets-Lars Ulrich), which seemed to be become an instant classic amongst the conservatory bound. In other words, real live players WANT to play his piece, because, frankly, it IS quite irresistible and I guess it just has what drummers are looking for in a 'meta' piece.
Perhaps the point Greg is making is that (and I have the recording of
Kurze Schatten II), like me, there would come a time when one would have to say, What kind of reward am I getting for basically putting my life on hold to learn this piece? Seeing as the Mount Everest of post-WWII solo guitar works is kind of slim (Berio, Rochberg, Murail, Sciarrino, Ferneyhough, etc.,...), I deliberately set out to Compose a
Rebonds-like piece that exhibits an innate virtuosity, but also coupled with an almost populist goal of acceptance. Perhaps I'm not clear? There is 'fun' complexity, and then there are just rabbit holes. If someone gives up on my piece I would hope it were due to attrition rather than disinterest. Honestly saving something whooped ya is better than just saying...eh.
So, as I was faced with this Ferneyhough piece as actual competition for my piece (in the great annals of history!), I decided that, though Ferneyhough had succeeded in creating a supremely densely populated score (it reminds me of the Babbitt and Carter pieces played simultaneously and at double speed), I feel that he has failed in actual making a 'guitar' piece. I mean, who but Magnus Andersson is going to play this piece? Lots of people play
Rebonds.
So, I was able NOT to be intimidated by Ferneyhough's piece. I mean, how is it really special as a 'guitar' piece? The sheer amount of notes kind of takes away the concern of the instrument almost. OK, I'm being ridiculous, but, my point is,... if Greg ends up actually LIKING my piece over Ferneyhough's, isn't that a victory?
Forgive me for looking at this competitively, but, when you're up against someone like Ferneyhough in the All-Time Greatest Modern Guitar Piece Ever, you really have to be fearless. I'm just amazed how few Composers of High Modernism wrote for the guitar,
Berio and Halffter being the top two (yes James, and the solo from Gruppen! ::)), with a little Penderecki on the side.I was looking over that
Unity Capsule score (above), and Cato's comments, and I was just wondering if, like Grainger, Ferneyhough just OVER COMPOSES because he writes every piece to the... what?... 64th note?, 128th note? CAN'T WHAT FERNEYHOUGH DOES BE
ASSUMED BY A VIRTUOSO PLAYER? Couldn't his scores be infinitely simpler with the aural final product still 'sounding' somewhat the same? Isn't he just writing out a highly detailed improvisation? Notice how I have to put Ferneyhough down to make myself feel better?, haha
Or is he using the
Malifaris Malfactorum Musicus Diabolus to create with? Hmmm...
I was listening to Steven Schick playing
Bone Alphabet, a piece that I like almost as much as
Rebonds. Both of these pieces complement each other very nicely, and it becomes obvious to hear how the two men differ in how they organize notes. I'd say the standards for the percussion Hall of Fame have been firmly set, with many of the greatest Composers writing Masterpieces, but perhaps the classical guitar is more elusive a mistress?
Quote from: James on August 11, 2012, 04:51:08 AM
Boulez wrote a few that have the guitar .. incl. Le Marteau. So did Webern.
http://www.sheerpluck.de/index.php
Interesting site.
I just gave Kurze Schatten II a 12 minute spin around the 'hood. Surely it is a piece to sit in absolute silence and focus upon, but, as Greg, and hopefully myself, have expressed, it does not appear to be music for more than a very small room of people worldwide. I would love to know Magnus Andersson's feelings about the piece today, and how he thinks it fits into the Canon.
I heard no story, but about 1,000,000 notes just 'perfectly' placed,... I personally am very lazy and wonder how Composers who use a million notes just sit there and write them all out (I assume there are also drafts upon drafts). In my own piece I am being forced to confront my complacency, and it feels like actual WORK every time. No wonder no one has any respect for the 'slow' Composers (ha, I don't even know what that means,... I instantly thought of Arvo Part, but, I don't think that's what I mean,... I mean, Part was RESPONDING (unconsciously) to Ferneyhough).
Anyhow, you can call me a philistine, but I'm perfectly (not) satisfied with my relationship to Ferneyhough, haha.
Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56BjzEawfvE
It's just wearying...
And I loved to hear him talk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOB-RYrtG-s&feature=related
And the String Quartet No.6:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojafApMFCAQ
Oooo... 33 Relies to the Ferneyhough Thread,... how masonic!
Quote from: snyprrr on August 11, 2012, 09:24:41 AM
I just gave Kurze Schatten II a 12 minute spin around the 'hood. Surely it is a piece to sit in absolute silence and focus upon, but, as Greg, and hopefully myself, have expressed, it does not appear to be music for more than a very small room of people worldwide. I would love to know Magnus Andersson's feelings about the piece today, and how he thinks it fits into the Canon.
I heard no story, but about 1,000,000 notes just 'perfectly' placed,... I personally am very lazy and wonder how Composers who use a million notes just sit there and write them all out (I assume there are also drafts upon drafts). In my own piece I am being forced to confront my complacency, and it feels like actual WORK every time. No wonder no one has any respect for the 'slow' Composers (ha, I don't even know what that means,... I instantly thought of Arvo Part, but, I don't think that's what I mean,... I mean, Part was RESPONDING (unconsciously) to Ferneyhough).
Anyhow, you can call me a philistine, but I'm perfectly (not) satisfied with my relationship to Ferneyhough, haha.
Hmmm... if I just got used to his rhythms, I could definitely write a more complex guitar piece than Kurze Schatten II. I'd also probably make it for electric guitar. There are other difficulties to be exploited- for example, it's fun playing one of the bottom notes and then one of the top notes, back and forth, as fast as possible, not to mention some of the crazy sweeping arpeggios I could inclue. I think I'd be the only one who could learn how to play it for a while. ;D
Quote from: Greg on August 11, 2012, 10:35:48 AM
Hmmm... if I just got used to his rhythms, I could definitely write a more complex guitar piece than Kurze Schatten II. I'd also probably make it for electric guitar. There are other difficulties to be exploited- for example, it's fun playing one of the bottom notes and then one of the top notes, back and forth, as fast as possible, not to mention some of the crazy sweeping arpeggios I could inclue. I think I'd be the only one who could learn how to play it for a while. ;D
Am I to take this as a prescription for a piece of music I would want to listen to?
Quote from: Scarpia on August 11, 2012, 01:45:38 PM
Am I to take this as a prescription for a piece of music I would want to listen to?
You- I doubt. But it doesn't matter, since if I wrote something like that, it'd be for me.
It would be more like an etude, for probably no longer than 2-3 minutes. I think it could have sections which involve laying down the guitar and utilizing 10-finger tapping and six staves, which is basically the maximum that would make any sense for guitar (one staff per string). Probably played as fast as possible on each staff, but with slightly different rhythmic groupings, unlike Ferneyhough, who uses tons of rests.
Oh yeah, and I'd call it "Ubloobideega." I haven't written an Ubloobideega piece yet, after all. The Mighty One does not approve.
Quote from: Greg on August 11, 2012, 07:58:24 PM
You- I doubt. But it doesn't matter, since if I wrote something like that, it'd be for me.
It would be more like an etude, for probably no longer than 2-3 minutes. I think it could have sections which involve laying down the guitar and utilizing 10-finger tapping and six staves, which is basically the maximum that would make any sense for guitar (one staff per string). Probably played as fast as possible on each staff, but with slightly different rhythmic groupings, unlike Ferneyhough, who uses tons of rests.
Oh yeah, and I'd call it "Ubloobideega." I haven't written an Ubloobideega piece yet, after all. The Mighty One does not approve.
Is that a conscious Beatles reference?
I do like your idea. And, of course, electric guitar is almost another instrument... well have to discuss...
I'm struck by your mention of rests. I suppose from hearing it today,... sure, it had a million notes, but I guess it had at least half (or twice as many) rests. Huh.
Again,... Greg, is Ferneyhough writing out improvisations, or is his underlying architecture rigid?, or,... what's his undergirding? In the interview he talks about writing in 40 tiny sections,... but I'm dure he's not only a 'tiny section' guy. Comparatively, Xenakis hit on a formula of about 6-7 sections per piece, and stuck with that for a good while.
In
Kurze Schatten II (did you see the 2 minute
Kurze Schatten IV?),... sure it's a 'fast' piece, but it's just a very alien construct all around. Greg is talking about a more guitar based, and organic, sounding thing which just sound more 'right'. I'm still wondering how actually FAST one can play on the classical (vs. the obvious super speeds we can play on electric), though, I've heard some flamenco zips that are brilliant. I certainly have a hard time impressing the ladies with my classical 64th notes, haha! :-[
Quote from: snyprrr on August 11, 2012, 08:40:16 PM
Is that a conscious Beatles reference?
no
Quote from: snyprrr on August 11, 2012, 08:40:16 PM
I'm struck by your mention of rests. I suppose from hearing it today,... sure, it had a million notes, but I guess it had at least half (or twice as many) rests. Huh.
Again,... Greg, is Ferneyhough writing out improvisations, or is his underlying architecture rigid?, or,... what's his undergirding? In the interview he talks about writing in 40 tiny sections,... but I'm dure he's not only a 'tiny section' guy. Comparatively, Xenakis hit on a formula of about 6-7 sections per piece, and stuck with that for a good while.
In Kurze Schatten II (did you see the 2 minute Kurze Schatten IV?),... sure it's a 'fast' piece, but it's just a very alien construct all around. Greg is talking about a more guitar based, and organic, sounding thing which just sound more 'right'. I'm still wondering how actually FAST one can play on the classical (vs. the obvious super speeds we can play on electric), though, I've heard some flamenco zips that are brilliant. I certainly have a hard time impressing the ladies with my classical 64th notes, haha! :-[
Yeah, I saw Kurze Schatten IV. I don't get it, though- that's the only thing I could find of #4. I suspect it's misnamed.
'Tiny section guy.' Context is everything. lol
Quote from: Greg on August 12, 2012, 07:06:11 AM
no
Yeah, I saw Kurze Schatten IV. I don't get it, though- that's the only thing I could find of #4. I suspect it's misnamed.
'Tiny section guy.' Context is everything. lol
Hey, if I decided to make a piece with 99 tiny sections, even if each section just lasted a a phrase, I'd still be able to 'compose' a 6-7 minute piece no problem.
Ferneyhough just doesn't 'sound' like he does caunevermind... I have nothing,... sigh :(
Here's a Spanish analysis of Kurze Schatten II, a piece which seems to be stirring the fevered minds of more than one GMGer:
http://pt.scribd.com/doc/35208204/Analise-de-obra-Kurze-Schatten-II-de-Brian-Ferneyhough
I still haven't found a pdf of the whole thing, but here at least I have some interesting dynamic markings to contemplate. Am I seeing sfffz, mfz, pfz,... huh? I've been wondering how to score my piece dynamically, and I'm not sure my BF is helping. I'd need the score to go along with the recording ???...
Can I be honest? I either don't really LIKE the piece, or the way Magnus Anderson plays it on the recording. Now, I had MA's recital cd 'Chitarra Con Forza', which I now wish I still had ::), but I remember not particularly liking his frenetic, forceful, almost throttled, playing. When I finally heard the BF piece, I laughed, because it sounds like the most demanding pieces on that recital disc. Either the piece itself ends up sounding kind of like someone playing with a hobbled technique (which is what I think), or, MA is just obsessive.
For me, Kurze Schatten II is almost just too much of too much. I'm still just barely getting pleasure out of it, but it's not from the sounds hitting my ears really, it's what I perceive is BF's procedural processes... I don't know, it's like, OK, Brian, sorry, you're TOO SMART to write for the guitar. I mean, the piece really is a jewel (of course),... I'm just being a guitar freak,... who's better at guitar, Ferneyhough or Gatton??? ??? ???
I think I need to look into a cd recital of some kind for context...
I'd really need to hear another approach, perhaps willfully slower, or something?
Kurze Schatten II pdf
http://pt.scribd.com/doc/53705379/Brian-Ferneyhough-Kurze-Schatten-II
Have you guys seen Ferneyhough's Twitter account? Hilarious stuff. It was probably set up by one of his younger students at Stanford.
https://twitter.com/fernbri
Quote from: lescamil on November 05, 2012, 04:33:23 PM
Have you guys seen Ferneyhough's Twitter account? Hilarious stuff. It was probably set up by one of his younger students at Stanford.
https://twitter.com/fernbri
that's not right ;) ;D
Quote from: snyprrr on November 05, 2012, 02:16:24 PM
Kurze Schatten II pdf
http://pt.scribd.com/doc/53705379/Brian-Ferneyhough-Kurze-Schatten-II
Wonder if my link caused this to go away. I could view, and didn't have to download. Waaah. :'(
Is there anything I can read about how Ferneyhough chooses pitches in his work? I know he's not writing strict 12-tone serialism, but surely he has some kind of system.
Read the Collected Writings, which are intense, impenetrable reading, but which explain most things if you persevere!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41L%2BN2zq2dL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg)
Hoy, Luke!
I think I've read somewhere that Ferneyhough has been disappointed by how some players didn't take his work seriously and just improvised their way through concerts. Have any particular ensembles or recordings been named? What should I watch out for as I explore the Ferneyhough discography?
Quote from: lescamil on November 05, 2012, 04:33:23 PM
Have you guys seen Ferneyhough's Twitter account? Hilarious stuff. It was probably set up by one of his younger students at Stanford.
https://twitter.com/fernbri
Thank you so much for this. This made my day!
Quote from: Brian Ferneyhough
uggggh bros fuuuuuuuukckk i just ate a whole bag of dog foood on accident
ayo bros u think in spain they call pringles priñgles????
@lang_lang @berlinphil @steveaoki WE HIT TURBALENCE!!!!!
STANDFORD OFFICE DANCE PARTYYYYYYYYYYYUYYUUUUUYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
i bet if i wait like 15 mins all the gum will totally get outta my beard
it's chill ima just pound a couple Amstel lites an play halo with deadmau6
zbros just pounded like 4 amstel lites. i dont even give a shit that theres hella bubblegum n reeses in my beard, i just wanna dance
snyprrr?
This is actually the most complex fun I've had since running into the Speed Demonz forum, though the charm of that wore out a bit more quickly. There was a pretty good fake Slavoj Zizek twitter account going for a while too.
Quote from: Octave on March 20, 2013, 03:18:03 PM
Thank you so much for this. This made my day!
snyprrr?
This is actually the most complex fun I've had since running into the Speed Demonz forum, though the charm of that wore out a bit more quickly. There was a pretty good fake Slavoj Zizek twitter account going for a while too.
I was just watching... don't look at me!! ;)
Ardittis' Ferneyhough Cycle looks to be on the verge here. 3-cds!!! Can you IMAGINE!?!?!?! Wow, that has got to be something there, huh? The Aeon label certainly is giving the Arditti free latitude to re-record a lot of their Montaigne classics.
What's the deal with Ferneyhough's Streichtrio? There's a Stradivarius disc that contains both his String Trio and this, suggesting they are two different pieces, and notes that Streichtrio was composed at IRCAM using Patchwork. However, there's no mention of this piece anywhere in IRCAM's internet database or at Ferneyhough's publisher. Was this piece withdrawn soon after it was recorded?
Quote from: CRCulver on September 14, 2013, 02:01:03 PM
What's the deal with Ferneyhough's Streichtrio? There's a Stradivarius disc that contains both his String Trio and this, suggesting they are two different pieces, and notes that Streichtrio was composed at IRCAM using Patchwork. However, there's no mention of this piece anywhere in IRCAM's internet database or at Ferneyhough's publisher. Was this piece withdrawn soon after it was recorded?
I don't have the inlay blurb to confirm form whom, but
Streichtrio is a very short homage piece, about 90 seconds long. Presumably it is too minor a piece to have been published.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 14, 2013, 02:01:03 PM
What's the deal with Ferneyhough's Streichtrio? There's a Stradivarius disc that contains both his String Trio and this, suggesting they are two different pieces, and notes that Streichtrio was composed at IRCAM using Patchwork. However, there's no mention of this piece anywhere in IRCAM's internet database or at Ferneyhough's publisher. Was this piece withdrawn soon after it was recorded?
It's a birthday piece to André Richard composed in 1994, the year prior to the much longer
String Trio, which, like a number of works from that period (
Unsichtbare Farben, for instance), also used Patchwork.
Quote from: petrarch on September 16, 2013, 07:58:41 AM
It's a birthday piece to André Richard composed in 1994, the year prior to the much longer String Trio, which, like a number of works from that period (Unsichtbare Farben, for instance), also used Patchwork.
Have you heard any of Andre Richard's music (he's the Nono guy, right?). I had a cd with a Violin 'Sonata' and two chamber/orchestral works with E/A elements. Boy I should've kept that.
Aeon has now announced (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/complete-works-for-string-quartet-trios-aecd-1335) the long-awaited recording of Ferneyhough's complete string quartet and string trio cycle by the "new" Arditti Quartet.
3 CDs, Claron McFadden is the soprano in the String Quartet No. 4. Looks good.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 27, 2014, 11:49:11 AM
Aeon has now announced (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/complete-works-for-string-quartet-trios-aecd-1335) the long-awaited recording of Ferneyhough's complete string quartet and string trio cycle by the "new" Arditti Quartet.
3 CDs, Claron McFadden is the soprano in the String Quartet No. 4. Looks good.
Thanks! Glad to know about this.
--Bruce
From the website for the new Arditti CD:
QuoteOn the occasion of its 40th anniversary (1974-2014), the Arditti Quartet, one of the most famous groups in contemporary music, has chosen to record, for the second time — and this is an occurrence sufficiently rare that it bears emphasizing —, the complete string quartets of Brian Ferneyhough. The pieces on these discs immediately weave an auditory spell and well illustrate this composer's brand of complexity, i.e., writing reputed to be unplayable for the instrumentalists but providing a definite pleasure for the listener, caught up in the headiness of a universe without limits or vanishing point.
(My emphasis above.)
Something for the Grammar Grumble: is the "writing" what is "caught up" or is it the "listener" who is "caught up" in that heady universe?
The writing of this promotional paragraph is also pretty "heady." 0:)
Quote from: Cato on March 27, 2014, 12:36:03 PM
From the website for the new Arditti CD:
(My emphasis above.)
Something for the Grammar Grumble: is the "writing" what is "caught up" or is it the "listener" who is "caught up" in that heady universe?
The writing of this promotional paragraph is also pretty "heady." 0:)
this is the most bestest news! ferneyhough's kool
Quote from: CRCulver on March 27, 2014, 11:49:11 AM
Aeon has now announced (http://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/complete-works-for-string-quartet-trios-aecd-1335) the long-awaited recording of Ferneyhough's complete string quartet and string trio cycle by the "new" Arditti Quartet.
3 CDs, Claron McFadden is the soprano in the String Quartet No. 4. Looks good.
been waiting for a recording of the 6th qt. And it looks like all new recordings of the earlier quartets - not reissues
meanwhile, if you are jonesing for the 6th quartet Arditti put up a couple of cool videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJVj60z-TVc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojafApMFCAQ
Quote from: bwv 1080 on April 01, 2014, 10:27:46 AM
been waiting for a recording of the 6th qt. And it looks like all new recordings of the earlier quartets - not reissues
Ferneyhough's String Quartet No. 6, as performed by the Ardittis, has long been available on a Neos set (http://www.amazon.com/Donaueschinger-Musiktage-2010-Ondrej-Ad%C3%A1mek/dp/B006EMSMW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396380995&sr=8-1&keywords=ferneyhough+neos) of recordings from the 2010 Donaueschinger Musiktage. Even if you are looking forward to the Aeon complete string quartets, that Neos release is well worth having for three different performances of Dillon's String Quartet No. 6 (by the Ardittis, the JACK Quartet and the Quatuor Diotima), recent major works by Manoury and Haas, etc.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 01, 2014, 11:39:29 AM
Ferneyhough's String Quartet No. 6, as performed by the Ardittis, has long been available on a Neos set (http://www.amazon.com/Donaueschinger-Musiktage-2010-Ondrej-Ad%C3%A1mek/dp/B006EMSMW6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396380995&sr=8-1&keywords=ferneyhough+neos) of recordings from the 2010 Donaueschinger Musiktage. Even if you are looking forward to the Aeon complete string quartets, that Neos release is well worth having for three different performances of Dillon's String Quartet No. 6 (by the Ardittis, the JACK Quartet and the Quatuor Diotima), recent major works by Manoury and Haas, etc.
All that on ONE disc??
But WAIT!
There's More!!
Order Now and Receive a Complimentary 'Le Sacre' Ringtone!
Seriously, all that on one disc???
looks to be a good year with Ian Pace's recording of the complete piano works coming out as well
Quote from: snyprrr on April 01, 2014, 12:03:24 PM
All that on ONE disc??
But WAIT!
There's More!!
Order Now and Receive a Complimentary 'Le Sacre' Ringtone!
Seriously, all that on one disc???
4 discs. But all available in the same compilation at least, which is an unparalleled bargain with 4 discs for the price of... um... 5.
Also featuring the 2nd string quartet of Aaron "I AM the avant-garde, bitch" Cassidy and a 45 minute piece by Vinko Globokar I still can't make head or tail of. There's a quota of one of those per Donaueschinger Musiktage compilation, I think.
Elgar Howarth's LP of Transit has just been uploaded to symphonyshare - I asked for it after being impressed with the music as heard on youtube. Normally I'm not so interested in music from this period of his output (i.e. early), but this seems to stand out as a masterpiece.
I'm seriously interested in Ferneyhough at the moment, especially the more recent pieces. Again my interest was peeked when I came across the UK premier of Liber Scintillarum on youtube.
Has anyone read Lois Fitch's book?
I found this on the web, but i'm putting it here for ease of access.
Here's the text of the Transcendental Etudes
I. Etüden (Auszug)
Nacht, wo der
Diamantberg glänzt
und Rabe und Nachtigall
zur Schaukel machen
den werenden Mond.
II. Etüden (Auszug)
Diese langen
Regenfäden
enden nicht
in deiner Hand.
Wo das Kreuz ist
der Sanduhr
wurzelt der Blitz.
Die Sorge; als Wind
bespringt sie
den Rand
erblickter See,
verdingt sich,
als Segel
dem Grunde.
Woran gebrichts?
Kind sagt dirs nicht
noch Vogel
Ziel zielzüchtig sonst
spricht plötzlich dir
von Raum.
Mit schönen Knien
kommt
Vernunft vorbei
(E.M.)
III. Komet
ich lote
die stürzende Tiefe
in den gefesselten Sprung
zur Dunkelhaft
verglühten
basaltgefiederte Schwingen
kaltgeschlagen
ufert
die Ebbe
(A.M.)
IV. Kartusche
in Gold gefaßt
die Lapisnacht
am Kratermund
der Skarabäen
fossile Glut
ritzt ihre Schwerkraft
in die Sonnenzeichen
[zielsuchtige]
die Feuerprobe
in Wendekreis
des Nichts
mein Schläfenbrand
will euch
die Sohle wetzen
Inbrunst verseigeln
am Flügelblei
der Silbe
Mohnstaub
hinfällig
ausgespien
verwurzelt
eure Blitze
(A.M.)
V. Elysium
im Aufwind
leuchten
die Fesseln
lichtgestrandet
treiben
die Flügel
Fadenkreuze
fanden
Gewißheit
jenseits
der Blendung
Duftschwere noch
in seligen Gefilden
(A.M.)
VI. Der Grund kann nicht reden
Der schreibt kein Tagebuch
Grund, der aus Totem und Toten steht
der die Säulen aus Wasser trägt
under die immer
geschlagene Flotte der Worte...
Er, behäuft mit Verrott und Dunkel
kehllos Ohnsilbiger unter
rudernden Flossen, fahrenden Kielen!
Stoß ich hinab?
Ich griffe im Finstern wohl
wie faulen Zunder
phönizischen Kindes Gewand,
gelöstes Lotblei
irrendes Echo, das
Wrack einer Laute...
Tauche ich?
Ich suchte mit Lampen, ich fände
eine Logbuch, welches jedoch
von des Totseins Bewandtnis
nicht sprich, sondern allein
von des Unterganges Beginn:
WIR SINKEN. WIR
WERDEN GRUND.
(E.M.)
VII. Kalypso
Sirenenschliff
Steinschlag
verzückt
die rächenden Zikaden
eintönig
fiebergetrieben
Aufruhr
im Brennglas der Flügel
Windrisse über den Dünen
schrill
meiß eln die Peitschenhiebe
Stimmbruch
in gläserne Schwingen
sprunghaft
erlicht
das Begehren
verödet
bleichen die Segel
Medusen treiben an Land
(A.M.)
VIII. Pythia
du reimst die dunkle Saat vergebens
zur Neige liebte mich die Fackel
die Todesrunen warf das Licht
ausbluten will das Unsichtbare
raffgierig vergilbte der Marmor
trägt noch die Worte zur Schau
stimmlos
bis Lava dir die Sichel bleicht
[Flügeltau]
Grünspan
auf lichten Anemonen
Wundbrand der Schwerelosen
wirft Anker
über Nacht
(A.M.)
IX. Persephone
entflügelt
treiben meine Ruder
steil
ruht der Abgrund
bleicher Spiegel
mit fahler Iris
sank die Flut
im Widerschein
Hochzeit
der wildernden Kristalle
das Irrlicht blaut
mondsteinenstrückt
ein Gletscherbrand
in atemloser Halle
der Taube Schrei
am Flammenriff
der Stalaktiten
in lodernder Gewißheit
eisgeborgen
versteinert
das Gefieder
Weißdorn
in blütenloser Trauer
die Netzhaut riss
Mundraub frohlockt
an schattenleerer Mauer
And here's a translation
I Studies (excerpt)
Night, where the
diamond mountain gleams
and raven and nighingale
turn the ?werenden? moon [becoming moon?]
into a swing
II Studies (excerpt)
These long
threads of rain
do not end
in your hand.
Where the cross
belongs to the sand-hour
lightning is rooted
Care: it jumps
in windform
on the edge
of the beheld sea,
employing itself
to the ground
as sail.
What's missing?
It speaks to you
of child nor bird
Goal otherwise chaste of goal
suddenly speaks to you
of space.
With beautiful knees
reason
passes by.
[E.M.]
III
COMET
I plumb
the plummeting depth
in the jump in chains
wings with basalt feathers
did glow away
into dark confinement
ebb
struck cold
is shoring
[A.M]
IV
CARTOUCHE
night of lapis
made in gold
by the scarabs'
crater-mouth
fossil blaze
incises its gravity
into the sign of suns
[craving of goal]
the trial of fire
in the tropic
of the nothing
the fire of my temple
wants to sharpen
for you the sole
to seal fervency
to the winged lead [also plummet, or pencil]
of the syllable
poppy dust
brittle
spat out
root
your lightnings
_scarabs_
[A.M.]
V
ELYSIUM
in the rising wind
the chains
are sparkling
stranded in light
the wings
are floating
crosses of threads
found
certitude
beyond
the blinding
heaviness still of fragrance
in the fields of the blessed
_locking of insects in amber_
[A.M.]
VI
THE GROUND CANNOT SPEAK
It does not write a diary,
the ground, standing out of totem and the dead,
that carries the pillars out of water
and the always
beaten fleet of words ...
It, loaded with rot and dark,
throatless unsyllabic under
rowing fins, sailing keels! [or quills]
Do I shove off? [also: repel]
I grasp well in the dark [in this passage I'm at a loss as
like foul tinder [to the proper use of articles
(the? a?) garb of Phoenician children
(the? a?) dissolved plummet,
(the? an?) erring echo, the
wreck of a lute ...
Do I dive?
I sought with lamps, I would find
a log-book, which however
did not speak of
the condition of death, but only
of the start of undoing:
WE ARE SINKING. WE
BECOME GROUND.
[E.M.]
VII
CALYPSO
siren's grindings
rubble
enchants
the avenging cicadas
monotonous
driven by fever
a revolt
in the sunglass of wings
cracks of wind over the dunes
the whiplashes are chiseling
in a shrill way
breaking of voice
in glass wings
erratically
the craving
dies away
desolate
the sail bleaches
Medusas are washed ashore
_Island of the cicadas_
[A.M.]
VIII
PYTHIA
in vain you rhyme the dark seed
the torch loved me to the last
the light cast the runes of death
the invisible wants to bleed away
avariciously the marble turned yellow
still carrying the words to exposure
voiceless
until lava bleaches for you the sickle
_Delphi_
[rope of wing]
verdigris
on bright anemones
gangreen of the weightless
throws anchors
on the night
_shooting star_
IX
PERSEPHONE
diswinged
my oars float
steeply
the abyss is resting
pale mirror
with sallow iris
the flood sank
in the reflection
acme [or: wedding]
of poaching crystals
the will-o-the-wisp turns blue
patched up from moonstones
a fire on a glacier
in a breathless hall
the scream of the dove
on the flaming riff
of stalactites
in blazing certitude
hidden in ice
petrified
the feathers
hawthorn
in blossomless mourning
the retina splits
petty theft exults [litterally for petty theft, theft of mouth
by the wall empty of shadows
_caverns in ice_
What's new fellas? I'm embarrassed I haven't gotten that Arditti set yet. :-[
Quote from: snyprrr on February 06, 2015, 08:51:15 AM
What's new fellas? I'm embarrassed I haven't gotten that Arditti set yet. :-[
Have you heard Plötzlichkeit?(it may be on youtube, unfortunately because you're still living in the 19th century I can't upload it for you.)
Truth is I've been listening to more Finnissy and Birtwistle than Ferneyhough recently.
1) Elision(?) on Kairos
2) Expose on ???
3) Recherche on Stradivarius
4) ??? on Accord
5) Trio SurPlus on ???
6) ??? on Etcetera
KAIROS is always #1 priority.
I remember hating Carter's Pulitzer Pfrize winning String Quartet No.3 (1971), simply for all the noisy complexity. So, the other week when I was dusting off the Arditti's original Ferneyhough recording and checking out SQs 2-3, it hit me, "Who is as complex as Ferneyhough?" Well, the obvious answer was Carter in 1971.
So I compared Carter's SQ3 (Julliard) with Ferneyhough's SQ3 (1989?). The Carter really impressed me this time around, what with all the oodles of pizz and the various states of being. The Fern didn't quite do as much for me, I didn't hear the same kind of imagination in complexity that I heard in the Carter.
I start thinking... both of their first SQs were both looong and drawn out paens... they both seem to have a similar trajectory... what do you think?
NEW Complexity???? WHAT ABOUT CARTER???
Carter, the original Ferneyhough?
Quote from: snyprrr on October 11, 2016, 08:17:39 AM
I remember hating Carter's Pulitzer Pfrize winning String Quartet No.3 (1971), simply for all the noisy complexity. So, the other week when I was dusting off the Arditti's original Ferneyhough recording and checking out SQs 2-3, it hit me, "Who is as complex as Ferneyhough?" Well, the obvious answer was Carter in 1971.
So I compared Carter's SQ3 (Julliard) with Ferneyhough's SQ3 (1989?). The Carter really impressed me this time around, what with all the oodles of pizz and the various states of being. The Fern didn't quite do as much for me, I didn't hear the same kind of imagination in complexity that I heard in the Carter.
I start thinking... both of their first SQs were both looong and drawn out paens... they both seem to have a similar trajectory... what do you think?
One interesting thing to do is listen to Night Fantasies and lemma icon epigram.
NEW Complexity???? WHAT ABOUT CARTER???
Carter, the original Ferneyhough?
I think that there's more variety in Ferneyhough's quartets, esp 6, than in any of Carter's. More emotional variety. I much prefer Ferneyhough's music to Carter's. Try comparing Lemma Icon Epigram with Night Fantasies. Maybe add in Snowdrift (Finnissy)
Quote from: snyprrr on October 11, 2016, 08:17:39 AM
I remember hating Carter's Pulitzer Pfrize winning String Quartet No.3 (1971), simply for all the noisy complexity. So, the other week when I was dusting off the Arditti's original Ferneyhough recording and checking out SQs 2-3, it hit me, "Who is as complex as Ferneyhough?" Well, the obvious answer was Carter in 1971.
So I compared Carter's SQ3 (Julliard) with Ferneyhough's SQ3 (1989?). The Carter really impressed me this time around, what with all the oodles of pizz and the various states of being. The Fern didn't quite do as much for me, I didn't hear the same kind of imagination in complexity that I heard in the Carter.
I start thinking... both of their first SQs were both looong and drawn out paens... they both seem to have a similar trajectory... what do you think?
NEW Complexity???? WHAT ABOUT CARTER???
Carter, the original Ferneyhough?
I have often heard Carter named as a predecessor to the New Complexity school, yes.
Carter probably contributed a lot to New Complexity, but I think Cage's Freeman Etudes may be even more vital to that "school."
Quote from: Crudblud on October 11, 2016, 10:47:34 AM
, but I think Cage's Freeman Etudes may be even more vital to that "school."
Why?
Look, can we have some examples that I can hear? I can't see much of a resemblance between Carter's music and Ferneyhough's or Finnissy's - they may both be hard to play of course.
Quote from: Crudblud on October 11, 2016, 10:47:34 AM
Carter probably contributed a lot to New Complexity, but I think Cage's Freeman Etudes may be even more vital to that "school."
FREEMAN ETUDES. YES.
Elliott Carter's music is significantly easier to play than Ferneyhough. I like Ferneyhough a lot, one of my favourite composers, but I still think his solo guitar music is Kurze Shit-en to play compared to Carter's.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 11, 2016, 06:10:07 PM
I've never been able to get into Ferneyhough's music, no matter how hard I try.
There are a few pieces I like, but "like" is the maximum enjoyment I've gotten.
One of the biggest turning points for me with his music was listening to the sonatas for string quartet along with the score. Do you know the work?
Quote from: jessop on October 11, 2016, 04:58:08 PM
Elliott Carter's music is significantly easier to play than Ferneyhough. I like Ferneyhough a lot, one of my favourite composers, but I still think his solo guitar music is Kurze Shit-en to play compared to Carter's.
I can sorta play a couple of instruments, but I'm not formally trained... my observation on purely sonic terms is that Ferneyhough's timbral directions / articulations / modes of attack are much more specific than Carter's (hence why the Freeman Etudes are relevant here, I assume?). Do you think this is accurate?
Quote from: nathanb on October 11, 2016, 07:44:02 PM
I can sorta play a couple of instruments, but I'm not formally trained... my observation on purely sonic terms is that Ferneyhough's timbral directions / articulations / modes of attack are much more specific than Carter's (hence why the Freeman Etudes are relevant here, I assume?). Do you think this is accurate?
Absolutely. Elliott Carter was not aligned with composers like Ferneyhough for this reason. He tended towards pitch and rhythmic/tempo ratios as the main focus for determining structure in his music. Basically Carter was all about 'melody, harmony and rhythm' first and foremost. There are parallels between his and Ferneyhough's music on a more superficial level when viewing the levels of rhythmic complexity, but it is fairly evident that treatment of instrumental techniques, melodic and harmonic writing are quite different when looking at scores....
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 11, 2016, 08:07:55 PM
"sonatas for string quartet"? Haven't heard that, unless you mean the String Quartets, which I've heard 2,4 and 6....
The "Sonatas For String Quartet" are essentially make up his "String Quartet No. 1"
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 11, 2016, 06:10:07 PM
I've never been able to get into Ferneyhough's music, no matter how hard I try.
There are a few pieces I like, but "like" is the maximum enjoyment I've gotten.
Have you tried the 3rd quartet?
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2016, 12:29:16 PM
Why?
In the
Freeman Etudes, Cage was essentially writing "studies in impossibility." The scores are so densely and precisely detailed, often with multiple instructions for each individual note, that it is incredibly difficult if not impossible to perform them accurately. This density or excess of information is a key element of New Complexity, a cursory glance at a Ferneyhough score should confirm this.
However, it seems I have gotten the dates mixed up. Ferneyhough was already writing his excessively detailed scores before Cage began work on the
Etudes (
Time and Motion Study No. 2, which I was going to use as an example, precedes Cage's initial work by a year), so I guess that rules it out. For some reason I had thought that New Complexity started in the '80s. My mistake.
Quote from: Crudblud on October 11, 2016, 10:57:40 PM
In the Freeman Etudes, Cage was essentially writing "studies in impossibility." The scores are so densely and precisely detailed, often with multiple instructions for each individual note, that it is incredibly difficult if not impossible to perform them accurately. This density or excess of information is a key element of New Complexity, a cursory glance at a Ferneyhough score should confirm this.
However, it seems I have gotten the dates mixed up. Ferneyhough was already writing his excessively detailed scores before Cage began work on the Etudes (Time and Motion Study No. 2, which I was going to use as an example, precedes Cage's initial work by a year), so I guess that rules it out. For some reason I had thought that New Complexity started in the '80s. My mistake.
For Cage the difficulty was there for political/spiritual reasons, art least in the piano etudes. I wonder why Ferneyhough made his music so difficult to play.
By the way, to me,a listener, the music doesn't sound like virtuoso bravura. The difficulty of the performance doesn't come across to me in the music, in (eg) Bone Alphabet.
Quote from: Crudblud on October 11, 2016, 10:57:40 PM
In the Freeman Etudes, Cage was essentially writing "studies in impossibility." The scores are so densely and precisely detailed, often with multiple instructions for each individual note, that it is incredibly difficult if not impossible to perform them accurately. This density or excess of information is a key element of New Complexity, a cursory glance at a Ferneyhough score should confirm this.
However, it seems I have gotten the dates mixed up. Ferneyhough was already writing his excessively detailed scores before Cage began work on the Etudes (Time and Motion Study No. 2, which I was going to use as an example, precedes Cage's initial work by a year), so I guess that rules it out. For some reason I had thought that New Complexity started in the '80s. My mistake.
For some reason I had heard the same thing regarding the start of New Complexity. I think the term was coined in that decade when music in that style had existed for a couple of decades already.
Wikipedia tells us of a certain 1988 article called '4 facets of the New Complexity' by Richard Toop which compares the music of Barrett, Dench, Dillon and Finnissy. Interesting that one of the local ensembles here (Elision) has a reputation for regularly programming music Richard Barrett and Chris Dench. These composers certainly became more well known after the 1980s along with Ferneyhough.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 11, 2016, 11:05:56 PM
For Cage the difficulty was there for political/spiritual reasons, art least in the piano etudes. I wonder why Ferneyhough made his music so difficult to play.
By the way, to me,a listener, the music doesn't sound like virtuoso bravura. The difficulty of the performance doesn't come across to me in the music, in (eg) Bone Alphabet.
Right, Cage was never a very showy composer, and the
Freemans are definitely not intended to encroach on the territory of Paganini. As for Ferneyhough, he gives some thoughts about his approach to scores here (https://youtu.be/sykB4znEk2Q?t=7m21s) which may shed some light. Or may not. From what he says I get the sense that the extreme detail is intended to provide some level of choice for the performer, probably not in the Cage sense, though.
Quote from: jessop on October 11, 2016, 11:14:46 PM
For some reason I had heard the same thing regarding the start of New Complexity. I think the term was coined in that decade when music in that style had existed for a couple of decades already.
Wikipedia tells us of a certain 1988 article called '4 facets of the New Complexity' by Richard Toop which compares the music of Barrett, Dench, Dillon and Finnissy. Interesting that one of the local ensembles here (Elision) has a reputation for regularly programming music Richard Barrett and Chris Dench. These composers certainly became more well known after the 1980s along with Ferneyhough.
That makes sense. Probably in the thick of the decades prior it was quite difficult to untangle all the new developments, since so many were occurring simultaneously, and lend a name to something that might have initially seemed indistinguishable from all the other challenging new music.
That's a very good short documentary, Crudblud, I encourage anyone interested in his music to watch it!
Might also be worth pointing out that in a 1992 interview (conducted by Australian composer and music journalist Andrew Ford) that he describes his music as 'anti-virtuoso' because of what mindset is required of the performers to play it. Later on the topic of 'complexity' he states:
QuoteIf my music is 'complex' in intention, it is not because its structure is necessarily more inherently complex than any other music, but simply because the fact of complexity is treated as one of the objects of the discourse itself. Perceived complexity is a function of perspective.
If you can read French you may enjoy the rather passionate posts on Ferneyhough by Lucien here
http://classik.forumactif.com/t3685-brian-ferneyhough-1943?highlight=ferneyhough
Re complexity he says the following, which is interesting though it would be nice to have some references to where Ferneyhough discusses these ideas
Quote from: Lucien
8. Il est vrai que l'interprète est souvent dépassé un texte trop complexe et détaillé. Le compositeur a pourtant toujours insisté sur le fait qu'il n'attend pas des interprètes qu'ils exécutent exactement toutes les informations. On peut penser, naïvement peut-être, que la liberté de l'interprète est d'autant plus grande que les informations qu'on lui donne sont réduites. Ferneyhough fait le pari inverse. Plus on donne d'indications à un musicien, plus il devra les interpréter librement et faire sienne la partition, l'intérioriser et la restituer de façon expressive. Remarquons aussi encore une fois que le geste compositionnel suit l'idéosyncrasie de l'instrument (étudié au préalable) ; jamais il n'écrit contre ou en marge de l'instrument (contrairement à beaucoup de compositeurs, en particulier récents). De ce point de vue il est assez conservateur, dans la mesure où il ne cherche pas à employer des sons substantiellement inouïs.
9. Le surplus est également perceptif, du côté de l'auditeur. Dans une telle complexité polyphonique, l'oreille ne peut pas tout saisir de façon égale, consciemment et dans l'instantanéité. Ce fait, loin de l'appauvrir, rend la perception plus riche et plus active. L'auditeur est forcé de trouver son chemin. La complexité crée un genre d'écoute diagonale, c'est-à-dire que l'oreille ne perçoit pas toutes les voix en même temps avec un souci égal, mais "divague" entre les lignes, dirigeant son attention vers l'un ou l'autre objet qui la sollicite, le reste étant perçu de façon périphérique ou indirecte. Ce type d'écoute n'est pas propre à la musique de Ferneyhough (ou à celle d'autres compositeurs proches), mais elle a ici un statut de principe esthétique. La musique n'est alors jamais tout à fait épuisable, débordant toujours, et sa perception peut être sans cesse renouvelée sans que son sens cesse de l'excéder.
Wo0w, 2Pages of incredibly thoughtfiul Replies!!
I WANTED TO BE CLEAR that I was ONLY comparing Carter's prize-winning 1971 SQ3 with Ferney's "full early maturity" SQ3 from 1989. And yes, it was only a "surface complexity" that even prompted my interest: both pieces seemed to have lots of "thorny brambles of notes" in a style that didn't really sound like, say, .... the kinds of 1960s Complexity... this is the NEW 1970s Complexity... like you said, they were just beginning to unravel ALL of the post-WWII innovations and setting them down for the first time...
So, now we've heard that "Carter is impossible to play" and that :Ferney is more impossible than Carter"...
PLEASE listen to the two pieces I offered. Same medium, different eras, same general sonic profile. Frankly, in this instance, the Carter "sounds" more complex and varied... I hear what you're saying about Ferney's SQ6: we all know Carter DID mellow just a hair's breath in his 100s, lol!! BUT- take this Ferney from 1989 vs 1971 Carter...
Now, I did listen again to the original Arditti Ferney 3. The recording is so tight that it gives an undue edge to the music, and I wonder if the AEON set's acoustic gives the music a totally different profile. Does anyone have both and can verify (still can't afford it...)?
1) I also agree with the guitar comment. Yes, THAT piece, certainly .
2) "Lemma vs Night Fantasies".... I don't know what to say here. Yes, the chronology is there, but, because Carter is giving a "night" programme, whereas Ferney seems to be giving a more "symposium" programme, my question would be, What does Ferney sound like in a noctural mood, and how would 'Night Fantasies' have sounded if it were, in fact, titled 'Symposium' (or some "rigorous" sounding title)??
Ferney grew up in that climate, though. Carter grew up when most music was still "normal". OK, tell me then, which Composer of the first post war generation IS the pre-Ferney? Is it 1940s Boulez? I'm actually having a Carter epiphany as this conversation is happening.
Some said that Ferney can't be "loved", only "liked"....others seem to have found some more fantasy in, say, SQ6... I'd say Ferney is coming around to a "magical realism"?? Perhaps we can really really look forward to String Quartets 7-11??????
Is it FerneyHUFF or FerneyHO ? I know, I'm embarrassed :-[
Quote from: snyprrr on October 12, 2016, 10:19:42 AM
Wo0w, 2Pages of incredibly thoughtfiul Replies!! [snypped]
Quote from: snyprrr on October 12, 2016, 10:20:52 AM
Is it FerneyHUFF or FerneyHO ? I know, I'm embarrassed :-[
It's HUFF.
I'm finding these posts interesting, because Ferneyhough is a composer I've heard very little of. What little I've heard, plus what I've read about "New Complexity," didn't make me want to go much further.
But if you're saying there's a "way into" F's work via Carter, that made me perk up my ears a bit. I liked Carter's notorious 3rd Quartet right off the bat, "what with all the oodles of pizz and the various states of being" (as you put it).
What's a good first couple of pieces to get to know the Newly Complex Mr. F?
The point 9 that Lucien makes above is really interesting if you know anything about early music
QuoteDans une telle complexité polyphonique, l'oreille ne peut pas tout saisir de façon égale, consciemment et dans l'instantanéité. Ce fait, loin de l'appauvrir, rend la perception plus riche et plus active. L'auditeur est forcé de trouver son chemin. La complexité crée un genre d'écoute diagonale, c'est-à-dire que l'oreille ne perçoit pas toutes les voix en même temps avec un souci égal, mais "divague" entre les lignes, dirigeant son attention vers l'un ou l'autre objet qui la sollicite, le reste étant perçu de façon périphérique ou indirecte. Ce type d'écoute n'est pas propre à la musique de Ferneyhough (ou à celle d'autres compositeurs proches), mais elle a ici un statut de principe esthétique. La musique n'est alors jamais tout à fait épuisable, débordant toujours, et sa perception peut être sans cesse renouvelée sans que son sens cesse de l'excéder.
Quote from: Mandryka's rapid and botched translationIn such complex polyphony, the ear can't take in everything equally, consciously and in the moment. Far from improverishing our perception, this makes it richer and more active. The listener is forced to find his own road. The complexity makes for a sort of diagonal listening,, that's to say the ear doesn't perceive all the voices at the same time with the same attention, but wonders between the lines, directing its attention towards one or other object which attracts it, the rest being perceived in a peripheral or indirect way. This type of listening isn't just limited to Ferneyhough's music . . . but it has here the status of an aesthetic principle. So the music is never completely exhaustible, it is always overflowing [debordant, going beyond any limits our perception imposes in it - the metaphor is a river overflowing its banks] and its perception can be constantly remade afresh, without the meaning of the music every ceasing to be greater than what is perceived [this last sentence is not easy to translate] [my emphasis]
The bit I put in bold is exactly what I felt when I heard SQ6, and I think it's a feature shared by Beethoven op 131 -- but in the case of Beethoven it's not due to the complex polyphony. It's not altogether clear to me that the polyphony is the sole important factor which causes the effect in the Ferneyhough either.
Quote from: snyprrr on October 12, 2016, 10:20:52 AM
Is it FerneyHUFF or FerneyHO ? I know, I'm embarrassed :-[
Just call him Fern for short, it's easier and more amicable that way, if a little presumptuous.
Is it actually FernyHUFF? I feel terribly embarassed!!!!
Quote from: jessop on October 12, 2016, 12:36:41 PM
Is it actually FernyHUFF? I feel terribly embarassed!!!!
It is FerneyHO. I've studied with two of his former students and they have verified this when I asked.
I've actually heard FerneyHOW as well.
Quote from: lescamil on October 12, 2016, 06:07:29 PM
I've actually heard FerneyHOW as well.
I'm going by the
one time I heard his name pronounced on the radio. So you may be right.
We just need to hear it from the man himself!
Quote from: lescamil on October 12, 2016, 05:37:04 PM
It is FerneyHO. I've studied with two of his former students and they have verified this when I asked.
Oh that's a relief then!
I am sure that Ferneyhough is pronounce Ferneyhyou.
even his name is Complex!!!! >:D >:D >:D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 12, 2016, 10:33:10 AM
It's HUFF.
I'm finding these posts interesting, because Ferneyhough is a composer I've heard very little of. What little I've heard, plus what I've read about "New Complexity," didn't make me want to go much further.
But if you're saying there's a "way into" F's work via Carter, that made me perk up my ears a bit. I liked Carter's notorious 3rd Quartet right off the bat, "what with all the oodles of pizz and the various states of being" (as you put it).
What's a good first couple of pieces to get to know the Newly Complex Mr. F?
Sonatas for String Quartet (early)
Funerailles 1-2
Kurze Schatten (guitar)
String Quartet 6 ...... also 'Dum Trans....'
some flute pieces...
Quote from: snyprrr on October 14, 2016, 06:51:07 AM
even his name is Complex!!!! >:D >:D >:D :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Indeed. To modify Mandryka's translation above: "So the name 'Ferneyhough' is never completely exhaustible, it is always overflowing [debordant, going beyond any limits our perception imposes in it - the metaphor is a river overflowing its banks] and its perception can be constantly remade afresh, without the pronunciation of the name ever ceasing to be greater than what is perceived."
Ferneyhough's Puff
Much better!
Ferneyhough's stuff
Ferneyhough in the buff
Ferneyhough licks muff
Quote from: Mandryka on October 14, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
Ferneyhough in the buff
Ferneyhough licks muff
Ferneyhough says "no," for this is not his cup of joe. Indeed, Ferneyhough thinks that all this gossip has got to go. He may never play a sold out show, but Ferneyhough is nonetheless in the know, and apropos of the lengths to which the slanderer will go to assassinate the character of that fair and friendly Ferneyhough, he once more reiterates "no," and bids you adi- oh! One more thing, Ferneyhough's lawyer, Moe, says if you so much as have another go, you'll owe him a Starbucks frappuccino (which, as it turns out,
is his cup of joe).
Quote from: Crudblud on October 14, 2016, 11:18:04 AM
Ferneyhough says "no," for this is not his cup of joe. Indeed, Ferneyhough thinks that all this gossip has got to go. He may never play a sold out show, but Ferneyhough is nonetheless in the know, and apropos of the lengths to which the slanderer will go to assassinate the character of that fair and friendly Ferneyhough, he once more reiterates "no," and bids you adi- oh! One more thing, Ferneyhough's lawyer, Moe, says if you so much as have another go, you'll owe him a Starbucks frappuccino (which, as it turns out, is his cup of joe).
I want to set this to music for soprano and string quartet pls
Quote from: jessop on October 14, 2016, 12:52:57 PM
I want to set this to music for soprano and string quartet pls
Please do.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 12, 2016, 05:15:50 AM
If you can read French you may enjoy the rather passionate posts on Ferneyhough by Lucien here
http://classik.forumactif.com/t3685-brian-ferneyhough-1943?highlight=ferneyhough
Re complexity he says the following, which is interesting though it would be nice to have some references to where Ferneyhough discusses these ideas
Those are good posts! I had to read them in broken google translate English, but still nice find.
Ferneyhough seems to combine melodic/harmonic writing with sonic/soundsapce writing to create extremely complex, constructive, and developmental music that straddles the edge between these opposites. And by complex, as that guy Lucien said, it is complexity in the relations and development of the material, not just immediate complexity of the sound.
What I like about his music is that even if one cannot, and probably should not, follow most of the syntactical relations at even a gut level, one can still pick up on his living, breathing musical organisms at various sorts of angles. There's so much subtlety going on, and one cannot follow even most of it, but one can still experience the organism, even in one's individual way.
His music is primal and outdoorsy, even evocative of images of ghosts, wind wisps, tribal rites. It is not existential. It is cerebrally personal while not emotionally personal. In short,while I have no idea how it works, and one probably would need extensive study to figure out how it does, anyone can pick up on and follow the waves of his music, so complex in structure but perceived by the listener as an organic wave. And perceived differently by each listener.
Quote from: SeptimalTritone on October 14, 2016, 10:13:36 PM
Those are good posts! I had to read them in broken google translate English, but still nice find.
Ferneyhough seems to combine melodic/harmonic writing with sonic/soundsapce writing to create extremely complex, constructive, and developmental music that straddles the edge between these opposites. And by complex, as that guy Lucien said, it is complexity in the relations and development of the material, not just immediate complexity of the sound.
What I like about his music is that even if one cannot, and probably should not, follow most of the syntactical relations at even a gut level, one can still pick up on his living, breathing musical organisms at various sorts of angles. There's so much subtlety going on, and one cannot follow even most of it, but one can still experience the organism, even in one's individual way.
His music is primal and outdoorsy, even evocative of images of ghosts, wind wisps, tribal rites. It is not existential. It is cerebrally personal while not emotionally personal. In short,while I have no idea how it works, and one probably would need extensive study to figure out how it does, anyone can pick up on and follow the waves of his music, so complex in structure but perceived by the listener as an organic wave. And perceived differently by each listener.
Thanks for raising the bar here... but... but... HOW DO YOU PRONOUNCE HIS NAME??!!?? That's what's really important!! $:)
No, a very enjoyable Post... I do find Dillon MORE primal and outdoorsy...
I imagine that "he who has a more psycho-spiritual bent will make ever more 'fantastical' music"... I don't know Ferney's "religion", but, I imagine that a strict atheist would not be able to come up with out-of-the-box solutions...imaginations... uhh... yet I don't know what "Christian" AvantGarde music would sound like...hmmm... lots of trumpets???? no strings??? oy- not firing on cylinders this morn, lol
I agree re Dillon.
Quote from: SeptimalTritone on October 14, 2016, 10:13:36 PM
Those are good posts! I had to read them in broken google translate English, but still nice find.
Ferneyhough seems to combine melodic/harmonic writing with sonic/soundsapce writing to create extremely complex, constructive, and developmental music that straddles the edge between these opposites. And by complex, as that guy Lucien said, it is complexity in the relations and development of the material, not just immediate complexity of the sound.
What I like about his music is that even if one cannot, and probably should not, follow most of the syntactical relations at even a gut level, one can still pick up on his living, breathing musical organisms at various sorts of angles. There's so much subtlety going on, and one cannot follow even most of it, but one can still experience the organism, even in one's individual way.
His music is primal and outdoorsy, even evocative of images of ghosts, wind wisps, tribal rites. It is not existential. It is cerebrally personal while not emotionally personal. In short,while I have no idea how it works, and one probably would need extensive study to figure out how it does, anyone can pick up on and follow the waves of his music, so complex in structure but perceived by the listener as an organic wave. And perceived differently by each listener.
I note that Lucien has now made another epic post which prompted me to listen to Inconjunctions this morning, with great pleasure. I do wonder though if Ferneyhough's selling out, becoming simpler, more melodic . . . I can't even say it . . . the word sticks in my throat . . .
romantic
If you ever wondered just how accurate the rhythms in noted recordings compare to the score, this piece does a computer analysis:
http://epubs.surrey.ac.uk/807043/8/8.%20Chapter%205%20.pdf (http://epubs.surrey.ac.uk/807043/8/8.%20Chapter%205%20.pdf)
Using a John Williams recording of a Bach Bouree as a control, JW 4 seconds into the piece is early by .335 seconds, but on most of the notes is within hundreths of a second vs. the computer's perfect time (p.19)
Geoffery Morris's recording of Kurze Schatten II gets off by as much as 2.5 seconds (p 7)
Incredibly, percussionist Vanessa Tomlinson is about as accurate in her Bone Alphabet recording as JW is playing Bach
The score reminds me of John Cage's Freeman Etudes:
(http://sfsound.org/series/freeman.jpg)
Paul Zukofsky thought the score was humanly unplayable, but Irvine Arditti tackled it and proved him wrong. Some accommodations were made, such as "as fast as possible" and other things. Cage was actually inspired by this experience to finish the composition (originally written for Zukovsky), after Zukovsky had abandoned it.
It seems that problems like this, of complexity, are one of the things that are being grappled with and being dealt with in modern notation & performance practices. I've heard the same thing about Stockhausen's scores, like "too many dynamic markings, impossible to play, etc."
Quote from: Brian Ferneyhough in Andre Ford, "Composer on Composer"I like performances in which the accumulated psychic and physical momentum of successively confronting lengthy spans of material lends the interpretation an unearthly radiance -- the performers themselves are changing before our very eyes . . . there are times when I have been prepared to accept the relative imprecision of a live performance as a means to ensuring its presence. . . I have always rejected the idea of notation being a lifeless tool for getting down sounds on paper. It's a much more complex and active relationship than that.
In the latter part he's referring to pitch indeterminacy in Transit.
Or maybe he's referring to the "unplayability factor" as an integral part of the composer's intent, which totally vindicates Cage. It's kinda like when you purposely do something wrong to a device, to see what effect you get.
Quote from: millionrainbows on May 24, 2017, 10:24:28 AM
Or maybe he's referring to the "unplayability factor" as an integral part of the composer's intent, which totally vindicates Cage. It's kinda like when you purposely do something wrong to a device, to see what effect you get.
there is nothing in BF's rhythms that is wrong - all the subdivisions add correctly. You see things in his guitar piece Kurze Schatten II (of which I have played the 1st movement) like a harmonic held over a couple of measures and then terminating to a rest within a 33:28 ->5:4 nested tuplet within a bar of 7/16. The note wont sustain this long so it would not matter one way or another if the rhythm is played precisely, however it is playable as the start of the rest coincides with a harmonic struck on another string at the same point in time. I do believe that BF's precise rhythmic notation gets a different performance than Cage's indeterminate writing.
The second part of the quote, about indeterminacy, I shouldn't have included it probably, was in a separate paragraph devoted to a part of Transit where the notation deliberately leaves the pitch to the performers to improvise.
Cage wrote "impossible" music to show that the impossible is not impossible. It's not quite the same as BF.
(Re Cage, I've just noticed that there are no dynamic indications in the piano etudes but loads of them in the Freeman etudes, I don't understand why.)
A little known piece from 1980
https://youtu.be/ScxXYjgf3PU
Quote from: bwv 1080 on May 27, 2017, 07:07:33 AM
A little known piece from 1980
https://youtube.com/v/ScxXYjgf3PU
Groovy!
I just tried to listen through all of Ferneyhough's Music for Flute (Bridge), and, whew, just couldn't do it all, so concentrated and intense, a Symphony for solo instrument... whew, again, ...
And, it's hard to tell exactly what the differences are in terms of certain gestures which are his stock in trade. There are evocative moments, with a lot of intense movement.
ANY FANS?
I really like Mnemosyne. I remember being attracted to Cassandra's Dream Song every time I listened, but don't remember much afterwards. This does not occur to me with other works of his. Maybe I just did not focus as much.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 15, 2018, 08:50:21 AM
I just tried to listen through all of Ferneyhough's Music for Flute (Bridge), and, whew, just couldn't do it all, so concentrated and intense, a Symphony for solo instrument... whew, again, ...
And, it's hard to tell exactly what the differences are in terms of certain gestures which are his stock in trade. There are evocative moments, with a lot of intense movement.
ANY FANS?
I know this may sound
CRAAZYYY!!!! but maybe you don't need to listen to it all in one go...
Quote from: North Star on February 16, 2018, 10:13:30 AM
I know this may sound CRAAZYYY!!!! but maybe you don't need to listen to it all in one go...
Yea, not recommended!!
Flute Music (or... Music for Flute ::)) I need to ta ::)ke in doses. I think I realize now why most flute recitals don't go pass the 50min. mark, it'sjust too much (and makes one understa ::)nd Mozart bet ::)e ::)r!!lol)
I mean, I did sort of like each piece, but, yea, not all at once.
Quote from: wolftone on February 16, 2018, 10:02:59 AM
I really like Mnemosyne. I remember being attracted to Cassandra's Dream Song every time I listened, but don't remember much afterwards. This does not occur to me with other works of his. Maybe I just did not focus as much.
Yes, at least it has more stuff going on, like a chamber music piece,... not that all these pieces don't seem to have an orchestral palate
Still, quite a grueling wxperience,whew
Superscripto is an amazing piece - how many composers could write a compelling solo piccolo work?
Quote from: bwv 1080 on February 18, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Superscript is an amazing piece - how many composers could write a compelling solo piccolo work?
Not really a question of
who but really of
why?
Quote from: bwv 1080 on February 18, 2018, 11:01:00 AM
Superscripto is an amazing piece - how many composers could write a compelling solo piccolo work?
It does illuminate some of his techniques, since, I'm guessing, the piccolo is a little more limited than the flute, necessitating a reliance of stock gestures? I did applaud his ingenuity, but, even at such a short duration, I felt that even Ferneyhough might have been asking himself, "Why?". Of all the pieces on that album, that would be the one that would get listened to a couple of times and then moved on from. In terms of that album it didn't seem that amazing, but, yes, whoomp, there it is! in all its piccolo glory-
I probably liked it better than I led on- :P
I do like 'Funerailles' a lot (Erato), ...
Quote from: snyprrr on February 19, 2018, 10:08:57 AM
It does illuminate some of his techniques, since, I'm guessing, the piccolo is a little more limited than the flute, necessitating a reliance of stock gestures? I did applaud his ingenuity, but, even at such a short duration, I felt that even Ferneyhough might have been asking himself, "Why?". Of all the pieces on that album, that would be the one that would get listened to a couple of times and then moved on from. In terms of that album it didn't seem that amazing, but, yes, whoomp, there it is! in all its piccolo glory-
I probably liked it better than I led on- :P
I do like 'Funerailles' a lot (Erato), ...
Erato release of the EIC/Boulez recording? That's really good.
Also, it is a bit odd to come across a solo piccolo work, considering they are played by flautists anyway. The only reason I can imagine anyone writing one is if a friend asked specifically for one.
Quote from: snyprrr on February 19, 2018, 10:08:57 AM
I do like 'Funerailles' a lot (Erato), ...
I really like the Stradivarius recording with the Arditti and ensemble recherche. Probably one of my favorite Ferneyhough records alongside 'Chamber Music' on Metier, which has Flurries, Incipits, and others. I wonder how the Stradivarius recording compares with the Erato one.
Quote from: wolftone on February 20, 2018, 12:22:39 AM
I really like the Stradivarius recording with the Arditti and ensemble recherche. Probably one of my favorite Ferneyhough records alongside 'Chamber Music' on Metier, which has Flurries, Incipits, and others. I wonder how the Stradivarius recording compares with the Erato one.
I seem to recall liking the Erato better, but I may be confusing pieces... maybe it's the acoustic is better?...
Quote from: jessop on February 19, 2018, 03:57:15 PM
Erato release of the EIC/Boulez recording? That's really good.
Also, it is a bit odd to come across a solo piccolo work, considering they are played by flautists anyway. The only reason I can imagine anyone writing one is if a friend asked specifically for one.
Erato, yes... such a great recital of works! I just call it Ferneyhough's Harp Concerto!
(https://www.nmcrec.co.uk/sites/default/files/styles/recording-cover-image/public/recording/NMC%20D231%20Ferneyhough.jpg?itok=wVRClUaf)
I've only just noticed that this was released in March this year. I'm listening to Plötzlichkeit now and it's very impressive indeed. Good to hear it with such good sound, it's what it needs really.
This is rather strange, I'd always drawn a complete blank on Ferneyhough's music until yesterday, yet last night, listening first to the 2nd String Quartet, then Inconjunctions, I found myself riveted to the action, they suddenly seemed clearly remarkable works, full of engaging music. A very pleasant experience I must say, and am very interested to see where it leads.
String Quartet No.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=595&v=p8RTPYaWXj8
Incinjunctions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH5pTtJWJy8
That's very exciting to hear!
Interesting things said here by Reynard Rott and BF here, and a performance of Time and Motion II
https://www.youtube.com/v/ghyN-kJpcbI
If I understand correctly, Ferneyhough and Roger Reynolds were faculty at UC San Diego at the same time, yet I have never seen a mention of one composer in press about the other. How did they get on during those years, and are they sympathetic to one another or not?
As far as I know, this is the only commercial recording with Boulez conducting Ferneyhough's music:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/410BPSM7HNL.jpg)
Funerailles is given here in both "versions," so you can hear two takes on similar ideas in short succession. I'm no expert in Ferneyhough's music, but this piece seems far less densely packed than his usual. A lot of frenzied activity, for sure, but also lots of musical "space," and some fine writing for harp.
Long interview
https://www.youtube.com/v/kI7cpFEBwCE&t=97s&ab_channel=SamuelAndreyev
Quote from: Mandryka on March 27, 2021, 02:28:52 AM
Long interview
https://www.youtube.com/v/kI7cpFEBwCE&t=97s&ab_channel=SamuelAndreyev
I found that one a couple of weeks ago and listened to some of it. Was the last syllable of his name is pronounced "hoe", and not "how"?
Quote from: Old San Antone on March 27, 2021, 04:53:50 AM
Was the last syllable of his name pronounced "hoe", and not "how"?
Yes. When I first came across Ferneyhough, I assumed Ferney-huff until somebody put me right.
To mark
Ferneyhough's 80th birthday,
Time and Motion Study II (1973-76) with cellist
T.J. Borden, and electronics by
James Bean and
Paul Hembree, recorded at the University of California San Diego.
-Bruce
Are there any young string quartets and ensembles currently taking up Ferneyhough, being coached by the Ardittis etc.? I'm concerned that the existing performance tradition, all the work of "putting the grass in" (as Irvine Arditti put it) to make Ferneyhough's scores playable, could be lost if there isn't that deliberate handover from one generation to the next.
In fact, I've felt worried about Ferneyhough's legacy in general recently. He was such an academically minded composer, very linked to the culture of erudition at the time, but today's academia has very different priorities and values. The world seems to be moving past him and, though maybe I'm reading too much into the Samuel Andreyev interview, he knows it.
Quote from: CRCulver on May 26, 2024, 09:23:19 AMAre there any young string quartets and ensembles currently taking up Ferneyhough, being coached by the Ardittis etc.? I'm concerned that the existing performance tradition, all the work of "putting the grass in" (as Irvine Arditti put it) to make Ferneyhough's scores playable, could be lost if there isn't that deliberate handover from one generation to the next.
In fact, I've felt worried about Ferneyhough's legacy in general recently. He was such an academically minded composer, very linked to the culture of erudition at the time, but today's academia has very different priorities and values. The world seems to be moving past him and, though maybe I'm reading too much into the Samuel Andreyev interview, he knows it.
I get the feeling that guitarists and flautists play his music, I've not heard of a string quartet taking it on recently.
Here's a video of an April 2023 performance of La Chûte d'Icare by a NYC ensemble:
Facebook video (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=166324829701679)
That's my favorite Ferneyhough piece, based on the 1989 Etcetera recording (incl. Arditti but not the quartet).
On an old precursor (?) of this board, clarinetist Carl Rosman was a Ferneyhough advocate iirc. He seems to currently be affiliated with musikFabrik, but I can't tell whether he's performed much of F's music lately.
Stephen Gosling (piano) used to play Lemma-Icon-Epigram fairly often in NYC (iirc I saw him c. 2000 at Juilliard), but I'm not sure how recently.