Despite the acknowledged training, education, or musical wisdom of conservatory graduates, teachers, performers, conductors and composers of today, I must admit that for probably many dedicated non musical listeners, the love for classical music can be for some, a significant but isolated passion. To be sure, there are exceptions, as I have learned from this forum. There are many well informed, interested members. Yet over these many years years I have very rarely shared directly my intense interests with personal acquaintances within my immediate community in regards to certain or specific composers. The only exception was a fellow graduate student. I did get to know colleagues who were former musicians. There few were well versed and quite knowledgeable on the well known composers but were quite uninterested in those perhaps lesser known but whose works I had come to cherish.
Anther problem, perhaps an unrelated one, is that I may have this passion for a composer and listen to a work over and over, I eventally become immune to its mysteries and subtleties. I then tend to long for new works but find it difficult to come up with new "finds." This from as been helpful in this regard. Music is most rewarding and intense yet solitary experience.
QuoteMusic is most rewarding and intense yet solitary experience.
Verily. I know of none in my area who share my interest - not to say I haven't tried to indoctrinate some of my friends! ;D I'd have to agree, this is definitely where music forums come in handy.
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 06, 2009, 10:46:25 AM
Verily. I know of none in my area who share my interest - not to say I haven't tried to indoctrinate some of my friends! ;D I'd have to agree, this is definitely where music forums come in handy.
Same goes for me, Sorin.
Quote from: schweitzeralan on October 06, 2009, 10:20:23 AMAnother problem, perhaps an unrelated one, is that I may have this passion for a composer and listen to a work over and over, I eventally become immune to its mysteries and subtleties.
I found this to be true as well, which is why I try not to keep listening to the same piece over and over again never mind how much I'm obsessed with it. Delightful passages seem to affect me the most when they seem to sneak up on me like a surprise, and listening to the piece over and over kills this effect for me because I learn to anticipate all the best moments.
Quote from: schweitzeralan on October 06, 2009, 10:20:23 AMI must admit that for probably many dedicated non musical listeners, the love for classical music can be for some, a significant but isolated passion.
Hi schweitzeralan, I expressed similar impressions in a thread a few months earlier:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14102.0.html
I'd say in my local area the situation is this:
- people who listen to pop etc. and strongly oppose the realisation that there could be life beyond that :)
- people who THINK they listen to classical by listening to compilations like "Classical to play in the background on your romantic dinner" or "Classical that will make you go to sleep" :)
- instrumentalists and vocal performers / conservatory students who would only talk to other performers and conservatory students
- people who talk about the classical but prefer to only do that online
I think it is not because of the classical itself but because of some weird shift in society in my country that happened recently. It is really hard to find people to do anything in person - unless it is dating or sports. It is about a million times easier to find someone for dating or doing sports together. If it is not dating or sports, people will only talk to their family and the people they already know, mostly colleagues from work etc. For me this is very strange.
When you talk about listening too much to one composer, I don't really think that's a problem.
We're fortunate to live at a time where we have access to an infinitely wider variety of classical music than music lovers have ever had before, whether live, on CD,DVD,radio, or the internet. There's an absolutely staggering amount and variety available to us, and if you're tired of listening to such great but familiar names as Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Wagner, Schubert, Schumann and others, you can also hear music by composers such as Myaskovsky, Szymanowski, Bax, Berwald, Roussel, Fibich, Medtner, Stenhammar, Koechlin, Leifs, Enescu,
Zemlinsky, Schreker, Brian, and countless other lesser-known but very interesting composers.
We can hear everything from medieval and renaissance music to the latest works by contemporary composers, and we've never had it so good.
Quote from: Ciel_Rouge on October 06, 2009, 02:13:13 PM
Hi schweitzeralan, I expressed similar impressions in a thread a few months earlier:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14102.0.html
I'd say in my local area the situation is this:
- people who listen to pop etc. and strongly oppose the realisation that there could be life beyond that :)
- people who THINK they listen to classical by listening to compilations like "Classical to play in the background on your romantic dinner" or "Classical that will make you go to sleep" :)
- instrumentalists and vocal performers / conservatory students who would only talk to other performers and conservatory students
- people who talk about the classical but prefer to only do that online
I think it is not because of the classical itself but because of some weird shift in society in my country that happened recently. It is really hard to find people to do anything in person - unless it is dating or sports. It is about a million times easier to find someone for dating or doing sports together. If it is not dating or sports, people will only talk to their family and the people they already know, mostly colleagues from work etc. For me this is very strange.
I live in the cleveland area. With very few esceptions, the geeral public is far more interested in local sports than in the Cleveland Orchestra. Admittedly there are those who do frequent the concerts.
Yet I remain thankful for the available recordings and WCLV.
I live in Nashville, Tennessee and easily find people who are very interested in the Nashville Symphony, the Nashville Ballet and Opera I do not at all identify with the sentiment that enjoying Classical music is a solitary or insular experience. At at any concert by the symphony, which are well attended, there are many people who I can have an enjoyable conversation about the music, playing and other aspects of being a fan of Classical music. At work, people comment almost daily on the music I am listening to at my desk - usually Classical, and often we will have a nice conversation about it.
If this is happening in Nashville, not a very cosmopolitan city, I assume is is happening elsewhere.
Quote from: Franco on October 07, 2009, 06:05:18 AM
I live in Nashville, Tennessee and easily find people who are very interested in the Nashville Symphony, the Nashville Ballet and Opera I do not at all identify with the sentiment that enjoying Classical music is a solitary or insular experience. At at any concert by the symphony, which are well attended, there are many people who I can have an enjoyable conversation about the music, playing and other aspects of being a fan of Classical music. At work, people comment almost daily on the music I am listening to at my desk - usually Classical, and often we will have a nice conversation about it.
If this is happening in Nashville, not a very cosmopolitan city, I assume is is happening elsewhere.
Indeed, there are enthusiasts, and many attend the concerts. I'm simply stating that interest in music for example composed by Bax, Egge, Colin McPhee, Vaclav Dobias, Roslavets, Bernard Reichel, Palmgren, Klami, Howells,and many other favorites of mine, are appreciated, I do believe, by a small minority. Again I state my great pleasure in that many of the works by so many composers are available to a small but intensely interested and scattered public.
I live in the cleveland area. With very few esceptions, the geeral public is far more interested in local sports than in the Cleveland Orchestra. Admittedly there are those who do frequent the concerts.
Yet I remain thankful for the available recordings and WCLV.
AccK! :o Another Clevelander who listens to classical music!!?? A few more and we ought to sell out Severance Hall. I have only one close friend who shares a passion for classical music. We are both artists (painters) and share a studio. He has a decent collection of music himself... but is mostly focused upon music from the Baroque through early Romanticism (having little experience with later Romanticism, Modernism, Contemporary, Impressionism... let alone Renaissance and Medieval music. Our other studio mate listens to the works that we bring in while painting... but he has some real prejudices against certain styles and certain forms and makes the most inane proclamations "This is completely lightweight music!" (during Handel's Solomon) and "This will be completely forgotten 10 years from now!" (During Schubert's 9th Symphony) ::) My own musical tastes are all over the spectrum... Medieval through contemporary, non-western, as well as non-"classical". The one common element is the insistence upon a certain degree of quality to the work and my absolute passion for the music. My wife enjoys listening from time to time and certainly loves attending the orchestra or the opera... but she is not anywhere near as obsessed as myself.
I'm simply stating that interest in music for example composed by Bax, Egge, Colin McPhee, Vaclav Dobias, Roslavets, Bernard Reichel, Palmgren, Klami, Howells,and many other favorites of mine, are appreciated, I do believe, by a small minority.
Indeed... I only recognize a few of them (Bax, Klami, Howells) myself. Of course anytime we go outside of the main accepted "giants"... among new music or old... those who are going to have had some experience with them are going to be more and more rare. I'm currently quite enamored of the Mexican opera composer, Daniel Catan, of Japanese Shakuhachi flute music, and of certain marvelous medieval compositions (especially Spanish) and I know of few others who follow my passions. Oh Well...
If you go looking for people who just dig Bach, Beethoven and the boys outside of the concert & conservatory setting, I doubt you'll have much luck - "classical music" is too much of a learned, thinking man's institution. Believe it or not though, I have, however, had a lot of success talking to people about music on a pure level, i.e. "Radiohead's approach to blending harmony and melody are brilliant," and then branching out into "yeah, it's kinda like Brahms," and have cultivated a few lasting musical relationships based on these kinds of exchanges - with a lot of give and take both ways.
Classical music is a hobby that requires a fair amount of effort, investment, and scholarship. Or, if you don't like that philosophy, just listen to what Berg once said to Gershwin - "Mr. Gershwin, music is music." :)
Quote from: Ciel_Rouge on October 06, 2009, 02:13:13 PM
Hi schweitzeralan, I expressed similar impressions in a thread a few months earlier:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14102.0.html
I'd say in my local area the situation is this:
- people who listen to pop etc. and strongly oppose the realisation that there could be life beyond that :)
- people who THINK they listen to classical by listening to compilations like "Classical to play in the background on your romantic dinner" or "Classical that will make you go to sleep" :)
- instrumentalists and vocal performers / conservatory students who would only talk to other performers and conservatory students
- people who talk about the classical but prefer to only do that online
I think it is not because of the classical itself but because of some weird shift in society in my country that happened recently. It is really hard to find people to do anything in person - unless it is dating or sports.is about a million times easier to find someone for dating or doing sports together. If it is not dating or sports, people will only talk to their family and the people they already know, mostly colleagues from work etc. For me this is very strange.
Amen! and Alas!
Many of my friends listen (and some perform) classical music. I would not expect them to necessarily know the works of composers who are not widely known even among GMG members, but then, I don't necessarily know the works of the music they are most interested in/work with the most (for one, sacred music, for another, recorder music, for yet another, guitar music, classical and otherwise).
My son listens to a lot of pop music, and most of the music he's listening to, his friends have never heard of, so this doesn't happen just with classical music.
I posted a few suggestions on ways to meet other classical music lovers (something I think would NOT be a problem in Cleveland, given that the only person I actually know in real life in Cleveland is a work colleague who introduced me to Finzi's music!) on Ciel_Rouge's aforementioned thread.
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 06, 2009, 10:55:19 AM
Same goes for me, Sorin.
And for me. Not even those who initiated my interest for classical music share my passion, except my late piano teacher and my former organ teacher, but these were professionals.
Quote from: schweitzeralan on October 06, 2009, 10:20:23 AM
...Another problem, perhaps an unrelated one, is that I may have this passion for a composer and listen to a work over and over, I eventally become immune to its mysteries and subtleties. I then tend to long for new works but find it difficult to come up with new "finds." This from as been helpful in this regard. Music is most rewarding and intense yet solitary experience.
I also have "worn out" many great classical works by frequent repeated listening. The works which have stood up best for me over a lifetime of repeated listening however, have not been classical but jazz, Louis Armstrong's Hot Five and Seven records of the 1920s. I would still be listening to these regularly if not that the primitive abilities of the other musicians on the records has finally worn out my patience. Armstrong's trumpet creativity on these early records is far above his later trumpet work, and IMO equal to a great classical composer. The expressive trumpet smears, glissandos and other voice-like elements, together with tiny variations in rhythm, add micro-expressivities to the solos which take years to fully appreciate and enable a rare longevity of listening. And talk about loneliness -- I've only met one other person in my life who appreciated this music fully -- although in books and periodicals I've met a good number.
If you are starting to become too familiar with a particular composer's works by over exposure, why not try avoiding them for some time and then coming back refreshed ? This has always worked for me.
There is such an incredibly wide variety of classical music available on CD now
that you could make a huge collection of them without purchasing a single work from the standard repertoire or having any duplication of works !
Quote from: schweitzeralan on October 06, 2009, 10:20:23 AM
Despite the acknowledged training, education, or musical wisdom of conservatory graduates, teachers, performers, conductors and composers of today, I must admit that for probably many dedicated non musical listeners, the love for classical music can be for some, a significant but isolated passion. To be sure, there are exceptions, as I have learned from this forum. There are many well informed, interested members. Yet over these many years years I have very rarely shared directly my intense interests with personal acquaintances within my immediate community in regards to certain or specific composers. The only exception was a fellow graduate student. I did get to know colleagues who were former musicians. There few were well versed and quite knowledgeable on the well known composers but were quite uninterested in those perhaps lesser known but whose works I had come to cherish.
I see your point and probably share your experience. I am a PE teacher at a private school and because of the curriculum I teach I would be labelled (pigeonoled) what American's would call a 'jock'. On occasions when I have arrived early to pick up my next class from the music faculty, sat down at the piano and noodled away for a couple of minutes, the kids get a shock. I promote run, jump, throw, kick pass, etc, etc - how can I possibly do this?
Apart from my colleagues in the music faculty, there is nobody who I feel I can sit down with and have a good conversation about classical music. I don't want to talk about the Three Tenors, Bocelli, Andre Rieu, Hayley Westernra, et al. I want to talk about it in far more depth.
I have a good mate who I can discuss this with on a certain level but my passion exceeds his so I have to be circumspect. So, unless you are involved with a group of people who know their classical music then you are right, it is a passionate yet lonely and insular experience. Thank God for the Internet where I can at least share this passion in a virtual way.
Wquote author=Holden link=topic=14828.msg377762#msg377762 date=1260777548]
I see your point and probably share your experience. I am a PE teacher at a private school and because of the curriculum I teach I would be labelled (pigeonoled) what American's would call a 'jock'. On occasions when I have arrived early to pick up my next class from the music faculty, sat down at the piano and noodled away for a couple of minutes, the kids get a shock. I promote run, jump, throw, kick pass, etc, etc - how can I possibly do this?
Apart from my colleagues in the music faculty, there is nobody who I feel I can sit down with and have a good conversation about classical music. I don't want to talk about the Three Tenors, Bocelli, Andre Rieu, Hayley Westernra, et al. I want to talk about it in far more depth.
I have a good mate who I can discuss this with on a certain level but my passion exceeds his so I have to be circumspect. So, unless you are involved with a group of people who know their classical music then you are right, it is a passionate yet lonely and insular experience. Thank God for the Internet where I can at least share this passion in a virtual way.
[/\
Right on in terms of all your well meaning responses. Much appreciated on my part. We all live out our passions, so many of which vary one from another. I am pleased that there are entusiasts out there. I acknowledge all your responses.
Quote from: stlukesguild on October 07, 2009, 06:13:34 PM
I live in the cleveland area. With very few esceptions, the geeral public is far more interested in local sports than in the Cleveland Orchestra. Admittedly there are those who do frequent the concerts.
Yet I remain thankful for the available recordings and WCLV.
AccK! :o Another Clevelander who listens to classical music!!?? A few more and we ought to sell out Severance Hall.
Fellow Buckeye here: I have formerly lived in Toledo and am now in the overgrown cow-town known as Columbus, where the symphony orchestra went bankrupt last year.
I have taken students to concerts in Cleveland throughout the years, and have pushed great music tangentially in my foreign language and History classes.
But ultimately, yes, you are dealing with probably less than 10% of the population, when you get involved with classical music.
We have debated this before under other topics in different ways: it has probably never been too different in previous centuries.
The Internet I would think is a help, with forums like this to bounce ideas off other people, or to discover new composers and styles.
On familiarity with a compser's works: Stay away from a composer for a few months, or even years, and things will be rediscovered, and latent things will come to the fore.
Quote from: Cato on December 15, 2009, 07:00:19 AM
Fellow Buckeye here: I have formerly lived in Toledo and am now in the overgrown cow-town known as Columbus, where the symphony orchestra went bankrupt last year.
I have taken students to concerts in Cleveland throughout the years, and have pushed great music tangentially in my foreign language and History classes.
But ultimately, yes, you are dealing with probably less than 10% of the population, when you get involved with classical music.
We have debated this before under other topics in different ways: it has probably never been too different in previous centuries.
The Internet I would think is a help, with forums like this to bounce ideas off other people, or to discover new composers and styles.
On familiarity with a compser's works: Stay away from a composer for a few months, or even years, and things will be rediscovered, and latent things will come to the fore.
Indeed. I have been doing this; I have also learned about works with which I was unfamiliar until I heard them, thanks to many of the Forum recommendations. And, yes, Clevlanders do love their sports. There's a good 90% interest in the variety of professional as well as non professional sports activities, while ( I'm guessing) there's perhaps 1 5 to 105 interest in classical music, if that. No big deal; I've lived with it for decades. Again, I'm always thankful for the composers and conductors world wide who do perform works I revel in.
Live concerts remind us that music is participatory, and is not created in the vacuum of solitude. A good conductor like Bernstein who is not afraid to appear ridiculous can draw us in to the emotion of the music, even in a video. It reminds us that music is made by living, breathing human beings. The same with a good solo performer, like Itzhak Perlman or Van Cliburn.
The "greatness" of Mozart's music might be an impediment to someone who approaches it. Often times the rhetoric of genius gets in the way of an honest, unaffected response to music.
I don't want anyone to simply "appreciate" Mozart; I'd rather see them actually moved by it.
Glenn Gould did this for me with Bach; Giuliano Carmignola did this for me with Vivaldi.
Let us remember that "great" music is not produced by solitary "geniuses," but comes out of the context surrounding it as well, and to "live" it needs living, breathing performers to infuse it with "greatness."
Otherwise, I have no use for the idea of "great" music. It is just an idea.
15 Dec 2009 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14828.msg378224.html#msg378224)
15 May 2017 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14828.msg1062433.html#msg1062433)
Not really a conversation, is it?
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 16, 2017, 02:59:49 AM
15 Dec 2009 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14828.msg378224.html#msg378224)
15 May 2017 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14828.msg1062433.html#msg1062433)
Not really a conversation, is it?
Well, that's how lonely and insular it can be, that you need over seven years to get the response you really needed.
Poor, poor Alan!
"The soul is Man's invisibility to Man." -R.D. Laing
Listening to music used to be something you could share in your living room on a stereo, but now computers have changed the way people listen. In a car, you can, but it's not the same. As a result, people don't think music is anything special anymore. It's a distraction, like a video game.
As to the talk about discussions, I bring old threads back into play if they are ideas that interest me. I think too many threads are started and abandoned in too short time.
Quote from: millionrainbows on May 16, 2017, 10:58:41 AM
Listening to music used to be something you could share in your living room on a stereo, but now computers have changed the way people listen. In a car, you can, but it's not the same. As a result, people don't think music is anything special anymore. It's a distraction, like a video game.
As to the talk about discussions, I bring old threads back into play if they are ideas that interest me. I think too many threads are started and abandoned in too short time.
(http://i.imgur.com/hdpAd4N.jpg)
Yeah, all these people on their computers with ear-buds listening to MP3s...You know who you are!
Quote from: millionrainbows on May 16, 2017, 10:58:41 AM
Listening to music used to be something you could share in your living room on a stereo by doing it yourself with your friends and family
FTFTY.
You know, those days when there was no stereo, radio or recordings and the only way to hear music was by playing it yourself or have a friend / relative playing it for you (and others), and when composers were not ashamed of writing for amateurs. Now, that was really a shared and direct experience, and that really made music something special.
Quote
, but now computers have changed the way people listen.
And how is listening through a computer conceptually any different from listening through a stereo, pray tell?
Quote
In a car, you can, but it's not the same.
It's not the same as what?
Quote
As a result, people don't think music is anything special anymore. It's a distraction, like a video game.
Which people are you refering to? I assume you automatically exclude yourself, with your sophisticated stereo equipment and dedicated listening room, from the great unwashed who lack both and must content themselves to mp3 listened through some lousy low-end loudspeakers or,
horribile dictu, ear buds, and for which
Beethoven is some sort of Grand Theft Auto, only with better soundtrack.
Your stock of inanities seems inexhaustible, really.