Maybe a utterly stupid question, but are there romantic opera's without soprano's?
And to set a few things straight I can stomach operetta's with coloratura soprano's without problems.
In fact I am going to buy quite a few of them, including Kalman, Lehar, Strauss and many others.
Started with one from Kalman, and posted about that.
That is funny, isn't it.
Bur recommendations concerning operetta would not come amiss.
So, please............
Elgar, The Spanish Lady
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 03:50:16 AM
Elgar, The Spanish Lady
That is a operetta?
Elaborate in major please! ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 12, 2007, 03:55:08 AM
That is a operetta?
Elaborate in major please! ;D
Do you think D Minor listens to operettas?
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 03:56:17 AM
Do you think D Minor listens to operettas?
Yes, of course!
Why?
Benjamin Britten's Billy Budd has an all-male cast.
But what is your issue with sopranos?
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on June 12, 2007, 04:02:25 AM
Benjamin Britten's Billy Budd has an all-male cast.
But what is your issue with sopranos?
Artificial vibrato I guess.
Britten is on my list.
Janacek's From the House of the Dead is an almost-soprano-free zone; also possibly his single finest work. But I think the two facts are coincidental ;D
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 04:05:10 AM
Janacek's From the House of the Dead is an almost-soprano-free zone; also possibly his single finest work. But I think the two facts are coincidental ;D
Luke, I hear Boulez is going to conduct this sometime soon. What is your reason for putting it at the top of the Janacek heap?
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 04:05:40 AM
Any male sopranos?
You would have to go back to the Baroque for them.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 04:05:10 AM
Janacek's From the House of the Dead is an almost-soprano-free zone; also possibly his single finest work. But I think the two facts are coincidental ;D
Good I love the music of Janacek!
My list grows.
Thanks.
Quote from: Harry on June 12, 2007, 04:03:56 AM
Artificial vibrato I guess.
Pray tell, what is artificial about a soprano's vibrato, which miraculously becomes
natural with an alto, tenor or bass? ;D
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on June 12, 2007, 04:06:23 AM
Luke, I hear Boulez is going to conduct this sometime soon. What is your reason for putting it at the top of the Janacek heap?
It is the most advanced example of the 'integrative' aesthetic that he applied to all his music, but especially from about 1917 onwards. In other words, it is a stark, spare, stripped-down piece where every note speaks volumes. That was always Janacek's ideal; he achieves it more than any other composer I know - but
From the House of the Dead goes furthest in that direction, and is also a very brave human document.
Janacek's 'Violin Concerto' - left in a sketched state and later reconstructed - is closely linked to this opera thematically. For that reason - bizarrely, as it isn't a true 100% Janacek work - I think it is among the most essential pieces of orchestral music in his output. An incredibly beautiful piece, too.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 04:14:51 AM
Pray tell, what is artificial about a soprano's vibrato, which miraculously becomes natural with an alto, tenor or bass? ;D
Well I said, I guess, didn't I? ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 12, 2007, 03:55:08 AM
That is a operetta?
Elaborate in major please! ;D
It is an unfinished Opera, Op. 89
Only a sort orchestral suite of it exists.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 04:15:29 AM
It is the most advanced example of the 'integrative' aesthetic that he applied to all his music, but especially from about 1917 onwards. In other words, it is a stark, spare, stripped-down piece where every note speaks volumes. That was always Janacek's ideal; he achieves it more than any other composer I know - but From the House of the Dead goes furthest in that direction, and is also a very brave human document.
Janacek's 'Violin Concerto' - left in a sketched state and later reconstructed - is closely linked to this opera thematically. For that reason - bizarrely, as it isn't a true 100% Janacek work - I think it is among the most essential pieces of orchestral music in his output. An incredibly beautiful piece, too.
Don't know the concerto. Recordings?
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on June 12, 2007, 05:26:49 AM
Don't know the concerto. Recordings?
I have two, both on Supraphon: Suk/Neumann and Zenaty/Jilek. Hard to choose between them, though Suk is obviously wonderful.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on June 12, 2007, 04:02:25 AM
Benjamin Britten's Billy Budd has an all-male cast.
Gay Opera? ;D
Quote from: 71 dB on June 12, 2007, 05:33:32 AM
Gay Opera? ;D
No,
The Beggar's Opera has soprano roles, IIRC....
Try Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti.
Enough coloratura there to make your eyes water.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 12, 2007, 05:20:56 AM
Only a sort orchestral suite of it exists.
You see ...... No sopranos ........
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on June 12, 2007, 04:06:23 AM
Luke, I hear Boulez is going to conduct this sometime soon. What is your reason for putting it at the top of the Janacek heap?
He's already conducted it. I heard a broadcast from the Holland Festival a couple of weeks ago. Interestingly, the biggest female role, the trouser role of the prisoner Aljeja (sp?), was sung by a male, so the only female was the very small role of the prostitute.
I've never heard Massenet's
Le Jongleur de Notre-Dame, but the only female roles it has are two angels that sing during the miracle near the end. Occasionally, sopranos
have commandeered the leading tenor role of Jean.
Peter Maxwell Davies'
The Lighthouse only has three (all-male) characters. Not really romantic, though.
Quote from: D Minor on June 12, 2007, 06:12:17 AM
You see ...... No sopranos ........
True, but it's not an opera but orchestral suite of opera music. Harry is after real operas without sopranos but that's like searching symphonies without violins.
Quote from: Wendell_E on June 12, 2007, 06:13:43 AM
Peter Maxwell Davies' The Lighthouse only has three (all-male) characters. Not really romantic, though.
Another incredible piece....
Quote from: 71 dB on June 12, 2007, 06:41:46 AM
True, but it's not an opera but orchestral suite of opera music.
But it exists in a performing version...
Quote from: 71 dB on June 12, 2007, 06:41:46 AMHarry is after real operas without sopranos but that's like searching symphonies without violins.
Symphony of Psalms....
Quote from: 71 dB on June 12, 2007, 06:41:46 AM
True, but it's not an opera but orchestral suite of opera music. Harry is after real operas without sopranos but that's like searching symphonies without violins.
Well really! ;D
I have already garnered a few from this thread. 8)
Quote from: Hector on June 12, 2007, 06:04:18 AM
Try Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti.
Enough coloratura there to make your eyes water.
But mostly for sopranos, which is probably why I love them so much.
Palestrina by Pfizner, with male characters (mostly if not all from the church who are allegedly allergic to sex of any kind). Certainly not a gay opera (is there an alter boy or choir boy in the cast? I forgot).
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 12:49:36 PM
Palestrina by Pfitzner, with male characters (mostly if not all from the church who are allegedly allergic to sex of any kind). Certainly not a gay opera (is there an alter boy or choir boy in the cast? I forgot).
As it happens, I just listened to Kubelik's DG recording this morning. The opera opens with a fairly lengthy scene (over 20-minute) scene between Palestrina's son Ighino (sung by a soprano) and Palestrina's pupil Silla (mezzo). Palestrina's dead wife, Lukrezia, also makes a brief appearance (with three angels, also sung by women) at the end of Act I, and the "boys" come back later in the opera as well.
Quote from: Wendell_E on June 12, 2007, 01:17:44 PM
As it happens, I just listened to Kubelik's DG recording this morning. The opera opens with a fairly lengthy scene (over 20-minute) scene between Palestrina's son Ighino (sung by a soprano) and Palestrina's pupil Silla (mezzo). Palestrina's dead wife, Lukrezia, also makes a brief appearance (with three angels, also sung by women) at the end of Act I, and the "boys" come back later in the opera as well.
Yeah, but skip act one and you still have two hours. My favorite is the second and third act. In fact, I only listened to the first act once. Somehow the soprano-less parts of the opera seems more reviting to me.
I am becoming frankly confused. What is different about Operetta in which a soprano...possibly coloratura, is welcome...yet is an anathema in a romantic opera? I am being tempted into some very uncharitable thoughts here. But Harry is too nice for me to spill them onto the page. However..............
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 01:21:24 PM
I am becoming frankly confused. What is different about Operetta in which a soprano...possibly coloratura, is welcome...yet is an anathema in a romantic opera? I am being tempted into some very uncharitable thoughts here. But Harry is too nice for me to spill them onto the page. However..............
Mike
Harry does not want sopranos to emote too much vocally, I suppose.
Two suggestions....
1) Arnold SCHOENBERG Moses und Aron: Female input is minimal, but romantic???
2) Strauss Elektra: Elektra is played by a mute, so she does not get to sing at all. Her mother is usually played by a lady-bass. The other main characters are men apart from Elektra's sister...now a days, sung by a counter tenor. So, it clearly fits the bill and is ultra romantic to boot.
Mike
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 01:22:59 PM
Harry does not want sopranos to emote too much vocally, I suppose.
I remain lost as to how anyone could enjoy the beautiful and very elaborate soprano roles in Fledermaus, but be put off by Traviata?!
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 01:34:35 PM
I remain lost as to how anyone could enjoy the beautiful and very elaborate soprano roles in Fledermaus, but be put off by Traviata?!
Mike
My love for the soprano-less acts of Palestrina notwithstanding, I agree with a friend of my who stated: "An opera is not an opera without sopranos." (I believe it was Dargomizhsky who said: "If there were no sopranos in this world, I would never have considered to be a composer!") I have never listened to Billy Budd for just that reason.
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 01:37:33 PM
I have never listened to Billy Budd for just that reason.
I put off listening to
Billy Budd for a very long time, for the very same reasons, so I was surprised to find out how much I liked it. In fact, it's one of my top 3 Britten operas, the others being
Peter Grimes and
The Turn of the Screw.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 05:35:55 AM
No, The Beggar's Opera has soprano roles, IIRC....
;D :D ;D
Sarge
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 01:32:16 PM
2) Strauss Elektra: Elektra is played by a mute, so she does not get to sing at all. Her mother is usually played by a lady-bass. The other main characters are men apart from Elektra's sister...now a days, sung by a counter tenor. So, it clearly fits the bill and is ultra romantic to boot.
Mike
Yes, Harry, Elektra is definitely an opera for you. Also you can safely listen to the first two acts of Wagner's Siegfried. There are only male voices plus a bird. Nothing to fear.
Sarge
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 01:37:33 PM
My love for the soprano-less acts of Palestrina notwithstanding, I agree with a friend of my who stated: "An opera is not an opera without sopranos." (I believe it was Dargomizhsky who said: "If there were no sopranos in this world, I would never have considered to be a composer!") I have never listened to Billy Budd for just that reason.
Hi Springrite,
Don't be concerned by the lack of sopranos in
Billy Budd. It is a wonderful opera. Also in the middle of the opera, Billy Budd is given the most gorgeous aria to sing. I don't think any soprano could have asked for a better one.
Quote from: Anne on June 12, 2007, 06:19:27 PM
Hi Springrite,
Don't be concerned by the lack of sopranos in Billy Budd. It is a wonderful opera. Also in the middle of the opera, Billy Budd is given the most gorgeous aria to sing. I don't think any soprano could have asked for a better one.
OK, I will try it one day.
I am surprised that (Elektra notwithstanding) that no one has yet tried to trick Harry into an all soprano opera.
Well....Tales of Hoffman has three very minor roles for the sops, (one call of nature per act and he would miss them. That apart, it is a feast of manly singing, plus one low alto pretending to be a man.....right up Harry's canal, so to speak.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 01:12:27 AM
Well....Tales of Hoffman has three very minor roles for the sops, (one call of nature per act and he would miss them. That apart, it is a feast of manly singing, plus one low alto pretending to be a man.....right up Harry's canal, so to speak.
Mike
Minor? Three big arias for each!
"...up Harry's canal,.." The very idea :o
Hector, You have lost all sense of collusion!
Mike
Quote from: Hector on June 13, 2007, 02:09:09 AM
Minor? Three big arias for each!
"...up Harry's canal,.." The very idea :o
Just wait till the next recommendation -- Der Rosenkavalier, where even one of the men is sung by a woman!
There's always Suor Angelica. One could set it in a monastery instead of a nunnery. all the parts to be sung an octave down, and rename it Fra' Angelo. Come to think of it, I'm surprised some bright spark producer hasn't done it already!
I like the Fra' Angelo idea. How about Carmen as a Gay opera, Carmen a countertenor and the girls at the factory could be lady-boys....in other words, tenors.
Mike
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 06:22:44 PM
I am surprised that (Elektra notwithstanding) that no one has yet tried to trick Harry into an all soprano opera.
But that would be simply cruel.
On a different note, I think Harry would just
adore Erwartung.
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 13, 2007, 03:45:43 AM
On a different note, I think Harry would just adore Erwartung.
I second that. Am I right in thinking that there is no
named female character in it? If so, then it fits the bill.
Mike
No names, Mike, to protect the innocent.
That was what I thought, so it can go onto Harry's list of must have operas. Pity it is so short.
Mike
SCHÖNBERG'S: Die Glückliche Hand. It is an opera and without sopranos. Only a baryton.
Val, Harry's plate will be fuller than we ever thought. Did anyone ever make an opera from Hemmingway's Old Man and the Sea?
Britten's Curlew River fits OK, the Madwoman is sung by a tenor.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 04:18:16 AM
Val, Harry's plate will be fuller than we ever thought. Did anyone ever make an opera from Hemmingway's Old Man and the Sea?
I think the fish is a coloratura, though.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2007, 04:21:38 AM
I think the fish is a coloratura, though.
Aren't they all <sigh>?
Here she is, Martha J Hallibut. Perhaps Harry might endure a little warbling from her.
(http://www.bybee.com/image/mermaid.jpg)
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 03:27:28 AM
I like the Fra' Angelo idea. How about Carmen as a Gay opera, Carmen a countertenor and the girls at the factory could be lady-boys....in other words, tenors.
Mike
Excellent idea, Mike. If we can have trouser roles for women, why not skirt roles for men! ;D
Sarge
Sarge, Imagine though the male diva equivilent behaviour of Gheorghiu, oh...we have that I suppose, her husband....as you were folks.
Mike
Nothing to see here, folks . . . .
Opera fans you have given Harry some good recommendations for operas without sopranos (or minor roles for sopranos) but I can not help feel ill at ease and troubled by what is ultimately developing here. I fear that Harry will never experience the following GREAT music, all with soprano roles:
1) Wagner (The Ring Cycle , Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Die Meistersingers)
2) Verdi (Otello, Aida, La Traviata, Rogolleto, Don Carlo, Falstaff, Un Ballo in Maschera)
3) Mozart (Don Giovanni, Le Nozze Di Figaro, Die Zauberfolte, Cosi fan Tutte)
4) Puccini (Tosca, Madama Butterfly, Turandot, La Boheme)
That would be a real loss wouldn't you agree?
My recommendation is : start with Die Zauberflote (a very welcoming opera with soprano roles (Queen of the Night aria is simply glorious)
marvin
Perhaps if we can just get him used to opera then introduce sopranos, it may grow on him.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 03:27:28 AM
I like the Fra' Angelo idea. How about Carmen as a Gay opera, Carmen a countertenor and the girls at the factory could be lady-boys....in other words, tenors.
Mike
Carmen's almost been done, well as a ballet. Matthew Bourne's
The Carman, in which the central character is a bi-sexual male, who will sleep with anyone. I have to say I enjoyed it immensely!
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 13, 2007, 06:37:36 AM
Carmen's almost been done, well as a ballet. Matthew Bourne's The Carman, in which the central character is a bi-sexual male, who will sleep with anyone.
Oh my God :o......
marvin
I don't follow ballet, but had been dimly aware of the Carman adaptation, I think it took place in a car workshop?? If Bourne was half as imaginative as he was with Swan Lake, which I saw on TV and thought terrific, then it would indeed have been worth watching.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 04:18:16 AM
Britten's Curlew River fits OK, the Madwoman is sung by a tenor.
Also Britten's other two parables for church performance,
The Prodigal Son and
The Burning Fiery Furnace have all-male casts. And there aren't any large female roles in
Death in Venice.
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 01:19:51 PM
Yeah, but skip act one and you still have two hours. My favorite is the second and third act. In fact, I only listened to the first act once. Somehow the soprano-less parts of the opera seems more reviting to me.
Duly noted, my list gets longer.
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 01:21:24 PM
I am becoming frankly confused. What is different about Operetta in which a soprano...possibly coloratura, is welcome...yet is an anathema in a romantic opera? I am being tempted into some very uncharitable thoughts here. But Harry is too nice for me to spill them onto the page. However..............
Mike
It is a contradiction in terminus for me also Mike, I am still not behind the gist of why this is. But coloratura sopranos do not hurt my senses.
I denied the liking of operetta's for a long time, but after buying one with a guilty conscience, and listening to it like I was in stealth, I concluded, darn I like this, so why not opera?
Still beats me!
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 01:32:16 PM
Two suggestions....
1) Arnold SCHOENBERG Moses und Aron: Female input is minimal, but romantic???
2) Strauss Elektra: Elektra is played by a mute, so she does not get to sing at all. Her mother is usually played by a lady-bass. The other main characters are men apart from Elektra's sister...now a days, sung by a counter tenor. So, it clearly fits the bill and is ultra romantic to boot.
Mike
On my seperate opera order list. There is a lot of catching up to do! ;D
Quote from: knight on June 12, 2007, 01:34:35 PM
I remain lost as to how anyone could enjoy the beautiful and very elaborate soprano roles in Fledermaus, but be put off by Traviata?!
Mike
Me too! :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 03:42:29 PM
Yes, Harry, Elektra is definitely an opera for you. Also you can safely listen to the first two acts of Wagner's Siegfried. There are only male voices plus a bird. Nothing to fear.
Sarge
Elektra is done, but Wagner Sarge,....that is asking to much right now! :)
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2007, 06:22:44 PM
OK, I will try it one day.
I am surprised that (Elektra notwithstanding) that no one has yet tried to trick Harry into an all soprano opera.
Please don't, I will dislike you afterwards, and be hurt emotionally. :)
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 02:11:44 AM
Hector, You have lost all sense of collusion!
Mike
Before I buy any opera I Will do thorough research as wether there is a possibility of encountering to many sopranos. $:)
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 13, 2007, 03:45:43 AM
But that would be simply cruel.
On a different note, I think Harry would just adore Erwartung.
Erwartung it is then!
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 13, 2007, 06:08:00 AM
Opera fans you have given Harry some good recommendations for operas without sopranos (or minor roles for sopranos) but I can not help feel ill at ease and troubled by what is ultimately developing here. I fear that Harry will never experience the following GREAT music, all with soprano roles:
1) Wagner (The Ring Cycle , Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Die Meistersingers)
2) Verdi (Otello, Aida, La Traviata, Rogolleto, Don Carlo, Falstaff, Un Ballo in Maschera)
3) Mozart (Don Giovanni, Le Nozze Di Figaro, Die Zauberfolte, Cosi fan Tutte)
4) Puccini (Tosca, Madama Butterfly, Turandot, La Boheme)
That would be a real loss wouldn't you agree?
My recommendation is : start with Die Zauberflote (a very welcoming opera with soprano roles (Queen of the Night aria is simply glorious)
marvin
For the Mozart operas I will seek recommendations, for I can stomach them quite easily, but not if the soprano roles are too vibrato laden, so HIP performances first please.
Quote from: knight on June 13, 2007, 06:48:21 AM
I don't follow ballet, but had been dimly aware of the Carman adaptation, I think it took place in a car workshop?? If Bourne was half as imaginative as he was with Swan Lake, which I saw on TV and thought terrific, then it would indeed have been worth watching.
Mike
Not quite as immaginative as
Swan Lake, it was a marked improvement on his other adaptations (
the Nutcracker and
Cinderella), and never less than entertaining. You can see it this year at Sadlers Wells, as it's showing from 10 July to 5 August.
Quote from: Harry on June 13, 2007, 08:12:48 AM
For the Mozart operas I will seek recommendations, for I can stomach them quite easily, but not if the soprano roles are too vibrato laden, so HIP performances first please.
First off while reading this thread, I thought you didn't like sopranos. (If that is the case, I will never speak to you again!!) But now you write the high
vibrato disturbs you. Ideally, of course, the vibrato of a singer should be unobtrusive as a violinist's, slightly faster for higher voices. But if you can hear the oscillations of 7cps, either you have super hearing or have mainly Middle Eastern musical descent (or both).
Not once was I surprised from the latter who said that the Western Operatic style had "vibrato". It could be that we get used to a vocally "free sound" that we don't hear a vibrato as part of the sound anymore. In the Middle East, across Turkey, Iran and the Arab world, the lower female voices are traditionally preferred. But they don't sing without vibrato either. Pushing the breath can minimize vibrato, but a rather aggressive white sound is the result.
ZB
Quote from: Harry on June 13, 2007, 08:10:10 AM
Erwartung it is then!
You've been warned elsewhere that Erwartung is all soprano all the time. But Schoenberg's
Moses und Aron is pretty much soprano-free.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 13, 2007, 10:40:41 AM
First off while reading this thread, I thought you didn't like sopranos. (If that is the case, I will never speak to you again!!)
ZB
I simply love sopranos, please stay! ;D
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on June 13, 2007, 12:57:24 PM
You've been warned elsewhere that Erwartung is all soprano all the time. But Schoenberg's Moses und Aron is pretty much soprano-free.
Well I am careful, so I will search on internet ;D
Duly noted, thank you very much.
Bartok's "Bluebeard castle" - just two characters: mezzo - Judith and Bluebeard.