Curious, enough people seem to like opera, and yet a lighter form of singing is neglected.
Why would that be? The music is as good as any other, so why is there a blank space in the minds of music lovers, if it comes to operetta?
On my order list for this month are also, works from Franz Lehar, Suppe, Kalman, Strauss, all in all 9 operettas.
Somehow this kind of singing works for me. Would like to share it with a equally interested board! ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 07:55:30 AM
The music is as good as any other.
I have difficulties agreeing with this. :P
Maybe there are good operettas but I am not aware of them.
There are a few (keyword: FEW) operettas that I do enjoy, such as The Merry Widow, Land of Smiles, etc. But overall, I do not consider any of them anywhere close to being masterpieces. What is more, for me they do not stand up for repeated listening. They work well as a change of pace kind of music, not much different than my listening to some Country Western in between other listenings. I have never listened to more than 2 or 3 hours of operetta music in any given month.
Harry, you may enjoy the SINGING more than the standard opera singing. But there is NO WAY that the music is as good. It is like I can listen to Mahler, Brahms, Hartmann, Beethoven, Medtner, etc. day in and day out. But I refuse to listen to the Vienna New Year's Concert day in and day out, even though I do enjoy them ON THAT DAY.
Quote from: 71 dB on June 14, 2007, 08:05:37 AM
I have difficulties agreeing with this. :P
Maybe there are good operettas but I am not aware of them.
Well this reaction I kind of expected. :)
Quote from: springrite on June 14, 2007, 08:17:03 AM
There are a few (keyword: FEW) operettas that I do enjoy, such as The Merry Widow, Land of Smiles, etc. But overall, I do not consider any of them anywhere close to being masterpieces. What is more, for me they do not stand up for repeated listening. They work well as a change of pace kind of music, not much different than my listening to some Country Western in between other listenings. I have never listened to more than 2 or 3 hours of operetta music in any given month.
Harry, you may enjoy the SINGING more than the standard opera singing. But there is NO WAY that the music is as good. It is like I can listen to Mahler, Brahms, Hartmann, Beethoven, Medtner, etc. day in and day out. But I refuse to listen to the Vienna New Year's Concert day in and day out, even though I do enjoy them ON THAT DAY.
Uhuh, this reaction was also no surprise, no harm intended though! ;D ;D
I love operas, I don't like operettas. To me they reek of pop music. You can't pay me to listen to most operettas.
I like operettas, particularly from the Lehar/Kalman generation, because they lie so naturally for the voice and encourages such a lot of great singing. (incidentally this is also why I love such a lot of early baroque vocal music as well, eg Monteverdis operas etc. ). Usually not towering masterpieces, nor were they meant to be, but entertaining and in the right performances with such a lot of glorious singing. The Naxos historic archives are full of gems. Not so fond of Strauss, the plots are usually too sophorific. Crimson, Yes and operettas in one day....I feel eclectic.
Harry, as you know, I generally dislike operettas ...... and so I agree with 71 dB .........
Quote from: 71 dB on June 14, 2007, 08:05:37 AM
I have difficulties agreeing with this. :P
Maybe there are good operettas but I am not aware of them.
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 08:52:26 AM
Usually not towering masterpieces, nor were they meant to be.
This is so true. I have no problem with people enjoying any kind of music. But don't make them out to be something even their creators did not mean them to be, nor think that they are. I don't think Lehar would ever agree that his operettas are "equal" or "just as good" ... They are good works and excellent for what they were. But don't stretch it, I'd say.
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 08:52:26 AM
I like operettas, particularly from the Lehar/Kalman generation, because they lie so naturally for the voice and encourages such a lot of great singing. (incidentally this is also why I love such a lot of early baroque vocal music as well, eg Monteverdis operas etc. ). Usually not towering masterpieces, nor were they meant to be, but entertaining and in the right performances with such a lot of glorious singing. The Naxos historic archives are full of gems. Not so fond of Strauss, the plots are usually too sophorific. Crimson, Yes and operettas in one day....I feel eclectic.
Wonderful news Erato, Lehar/Kalman compositions are also my favourite.
Capital! :)
Quote from: D Minor on June 14, 2007, 08:58:13 AM
Harry, as you know, I generally dislike operettas ...... and so I agree with 71 dB .........
Yes thank you my friend, I sort of expected that too! ;D ;D
Well finally 71 Db has some sort of support, which is nice too.
Quote from: springrite on June 14, 2007, 08:17:03 AM
There are a few (keyword: FEW) operettas that I do enjoy, such as The Merry Widow, Land of Smiles, etc. But overall, I do not consider any of them anywhere close to being masterpieces. What is more, for me they do not stand up for repeated listening. They work well as a change of pace kind of music, not much different than my listening to some Country Western in between other listenings. I have never listened to more than 2 or 3 hours of operetta music in any given month.
Harry, you may enjoy the SINGING more than the standard opera singing. But there is NO WAY that the music is as good. It is like I can listen to Mahler, Brahms, Hartmann, Beethoven, Medtner, etc. day in and day out. But I refuse to listen to the Vienna New Year's Concert day in and day out, even though I do enjoy them ON THAT DAY.
Great analogy. Agree 100%.
Harry, opera is the better bet. Operettas are like bonbons that may tickle the palate but offer little that's nutritious.
Quote from: springrite on June 14, 2007, 09:07:27 AM
This is so true. I have no problem with people enjoying any kind of music. But don't make them out to be something even their creators did not mean them to be, nor think that they are. I don't think Lehar would ever agree that his operettas are "equal" or "just as good" ... They are good works and excellent for what they were. But don't stretch it, I'd say.
O, blimey don't stretch my words to far
Paul, it was my opinion, that it was as good, and I fully understand that most of the posters disagree. I never said they were towering masterpieces, only that they bring me great joy, that's all, you would not begrudge me that now would you? ;D ;D
Equal and just as good are my words, not those from a composer.
Quote from: donwyn on June 14, 2007, 09:11:03 AM
Great analogy. Agree 100%.
Harry, opera is the better bet. Operettas are like bonbons that may tickle the palate but offer little that's nutritious.
Well I thought lets first start with the lighter fare, and than work my way to a sequel of Boris! ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 09:13:37 AM
O, blimey don't stretch my words to far Paul, ...I never said they were towering masterpieces.
Of course you are right, but I was quoting and replying to erato. ;D
Should I be ashamed liking operettas I wonder?
I always liked them, but suppressed this for years, and still many of my music friends are unaware of it, and I rather would like that to be secret. For they think also that it is a sort of second rate music, made for sissys.
But I am fed up with hiding what I afterall like, so this is my coming out.
For serious opera along the lines I stated I want to be guided, but my love for operetta will have a important part in my life, from now on.
Sorry about that. :)
Schwarzkopf and Gedda singing Land des Lachelns eg., anyone with the slightest interest in the glories of the human voice must melt listening to it. And the music is extremely melodious and charming. It does what it's meant to do (charm) very well, without pretending to be a competitor to Boris Godunov. No doubt whta is the masterpiece, still I listen to the Lehar more often.....call me shallow. ;D
PS I love the classical American Musical as well- even though my favorite composers are Bach and Beethoven!
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 09:14:37 AM
Well I thought lets first start with the lighter fare, and than work my way to a sequel of Boris! ;D
Ah, nicely done, then! If it's garnishments you're after then operettas should complement Boris nicely! ;D
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 09:22:36 AM
Schwarzkopf and Gedda singing Land des Lachelns eg., anyone with the slightest interest in the glories of the human voice must melt listening to it. And the music is extremely melodious and charming. It does what it's meant to do (charm) very well, without pretending to be a competitor to Boris Godunov. No doubt what is the masterpiece, still I listen to the Lehar more often.....call me shallow. ;D
Two
shallow posters liking Lehar.
I would never come into my head that I could compare Boris to a Lehar operetta! ::)
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 09:23:49 AM
PS I love the classical American Musical as well- even though my favorite composers are Bach and Beethoven!
Its getting better and better, love the musical film with Fred Astaire and his many partners, oops.................. ;D
Quote from: donwyn on June 14, 2007, 09:24:05 AM
Ah, nicely done, then! If it's garnishments you're after then operettas should complement Boris nicely! ;D
Thank you for your understanding, that means a lot to me! ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 09:27:02 AM
Thank you for your understanding, that means a lot to me! ;D
Giving you berth is a simple matter, Harry!
Standing back and watching you explore is worth its weight in gold! :)
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 09:21:54 AM
Should I be ashamed liking operettas I wonder?
Not at all! Reserve shame for the day that you find yourself liking Lord Lloyd Webber's output. ;D
I've decided life's too short to waste time on
Die Fledermaus or
The Dreary Widow, but Offenbach or Gilbert & Sullivan are fun on occasion.
Of course there are operetta fans, as you found out by now. They were quite vocal on the old forum, and I hope they'll come back here. I am one of them, I just don't talk about it, too busy with Wagner and Stockhausen!
Harry, you only mention Austrian operettas, have you ever checked out one of my favorites, a Berliner:
http://musicaltheatreguide.com/composers/lincke/lincke_paul.htm
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 09:34:21 AM
Of course there are operetta fans, as you found out by now. They were quite vocal on the old forum, and I hope they'll come back here. I am one of them, I just don't talk about it, too busy with Wagner and Stockhausen!
Harry, you only mention Austrian operettas, have you ever checked out one of my favorites, a Berliner:
http://musicaltheatreguide.com/composers/lincke/lincke_paul.htm
Well the 9 or so operettas I ordered are all on CPO, did get a fine deal there, and from there on I like recommendations, so I will check out this one you gave, but more is most welcome, I am sure!
Are there recordings Lis, of he ones below, and if yes, were?
Die Spreeamazone 1 act operetta (1896) - Apollo Theater, Berlin
Venus auf Erden - 1 act operetta (1897) - Apollo Theater, Berlin
Im Reiche des Indra (In the Realm of the Indra) Operetta; 1 act, 3 scenes; 18 December, 1899; Apollo Theater, Berlin
Frau Luna - Operetta; Originally 1 act then revised to 2 acts; Libretto by Heinrich Bolton-Bäckers; suggested by the Offenbach operetta Un voyage dans la lune; 31 December, 1899 Apollo Theater, Berlin. Presented in London as Castles In the Air.
Fräulein Loreley - Operetta; libretto by Heinrich Bolton-Bächers; 15 October, 1900 Apollo Theater, Berlin
Lysistrata; Operetta; 1 April 1902; Apollo Theater, Berlin
Nakiris Hochzeit (Nakiris' Wedding); Operetta; 6 November, 1902 Apollo Theater, Berlin
Prinzessin Rosine (Princess Rosine); Operetta; 18 November, 1905 Apollo Theater, Berlin
Grigri; Operetta; 25 March, 1911; Metropol Theater, Cologne
Casanova; Operetta; 5 November, 1913 Stadttheater, Chemnitz
Ein Liebestraum; operetta; Hamburg 1940
This is really a good link for all operettas admirers.
Thanks Lis!
http://musicaltheatreguide.com/mainmenu.htm (http://musicaltheatreguide.com/mainmenu.htm)
Quote from: Wendell_E on June 14, 2007, 09:32:37 AM
Not at all! Reserve shame for the day that you find yourself liking Lord Lloyd Webber's output. ;D
I certainly agree. Really disgusting stuff.
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 09:45:26 AM
I certainly agree. Really disgusting stuff.
Well I will avoid nasty Webber then? ;D
You are very welcome!
Was reminded of one of my old time favorites: Im Weissen Rößl by Benatzky. A German friend sent me a recording he made of a TV performance and I almost cried seeing the damage that has been done by stupid directors! I hardly recognised the original work.
Yes, I have been at the Weisse Rößl for coffee and cake, but only once! Typical tourist trap with rude waiters!
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 09:54:35 AM
You are very welcome!
Yes, I have been at the Weisse Rößl for coffee and cake, but only once! Typical tourist trap with rude waiters!
Absolute correct! :(
While chatting about operettas, you need nourishment like this one from the Weiss Rößl:
My search for Paul Lincke operetta recordings didn't bring results. The only link I found was a Naxos site with some of his music:
http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/621.htm#disco
I would give ANYTHING (almost) to go back in time to 1927 and see the first "Showboat" on Broadway.
What wonderful, enduring songs--"Old Man River", "After the Ball"--the stuff of dreams!!
"After the break of morn, after the dancers leaving,
After the stars are gone; many a heart is aching,
If you could read them all; many the hopes that have vanished after the ball!"
"Dat Ol' Man River, he mus' know sumpin'
But don't say nuthin', he jus' keeps rollin',
He keeps on rollin' along.
He don' plant taters; He don' plant cotton,
An' dem dat plants 'em, is soon forgotten,
But Ol' Man River, he jes' keeps rollin' along."
And don't forget "birds got to swim and fish got to fly"...
(or the other way 'round)
ZB
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 10:35:18 AM
My search for Paul Lincke operetta recordings didn't bring results. The only link I found was a Naxos site with some of his music:
http://www.naxos.com/composerinfo/621.htm#disco
Thanks for the trouble Lis.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 14, 2007, 10:39:20 AM
I would give ANYTHING (almost) to go back in time to 1927 and see the first "Showboat" on Broadway.
What wonderful, enduring songs--"Old Man River", "After the Ball"--the stuff of dreams!!
"After the break of morn, after the dancers leaving,
After the stars are gone; many a heart is aching,
If you could read them all; many the hopes that have vanished after the ball!"
"Dat Ol' Man River, he mus' know sumpin'
But don't say nuthin', he jus' keeps rollin',
He keeps on rollin' along.
He don' plant taters; He don' plant cotton,
An' dem dat plants 'em, is soon forgotten,
But Ol' Man River, he jes' keeps rollin' along."
And don't forget "birds got to swim and fish got to fly"...
(or the other way 'round)
ZB
I rather enjoyed that ZB, thank you! :)
Quote from: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 10:03:44 AM
While chatting about operettas, you need nourishment like this one from the Weiss Rößl:
I am making some tea, and will dream about the nourishment on the picture. ;D
Although much operetta comes perilously close to being the very definition of Kitsch, I can enjoy it--yes, even Strauss: Die Fledermaus, Der Zigeunerbaron. I love American operetta: Bernstein's Candide, Kern's Showboat (closer to operetta than musical, I think).
Sarge
QuoteHe don' plant taters, he don' plant cotton,
He don' lissen to the music of Johnny Rotten . . . .
Surely it's possible to like both opera and operetta. My preference is for opera, but this does not stop me giving operetta an occasional outing. A good performance of, say Die Fledermaus or Die lustige Witwe, or almost any of Offenbach's operettes, can certainly lift my spirits in a way that Otello or Tristan und Isolde probably wouldn't. I make no claims for them as great works of art; nor, I suspect, would their composers, but they are mini masterpieces of their genre.
Incidentally, if I am feeling low, there is one record always guaranteed to make me feel better. And it's an absolute feast of magnificent singing. Pure unadulterated joy from beginning to end.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/411N0WM7SZL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 07:55:30 AM
Curious, enough people seem to like opera, and yet a lighter form of singing is neglected.
Why would that be? The music is as good as any other, so why is there a blank space in the minds of music lovers, if it comes to operetta?
On my order list for this month are also, works from Franz Lehar, Suppe, Kalman, Strauss, all in all 9 operettas.
Somehow this kind of singing works for me. Would like to share it with a equally interested board! ;D
Sorry Harry but I can not help you here...I am a diehard fan of the operas of Wagner and Verdi. Its difficult for me to sit through an operetta....it just doesn't satisfy my appetite for dramatic power and vocal intensity. I get such an emotional rush from the operas of Wagner and Verdi that no operetta can give me. On the positive side if you like operetta, then the next stop is an opera!!!!
marvin
I'm not a fan of operettas but I'd watch this Fledermaus out of curiosity: ;D
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TVSXDNJTL._SS500_.jpg)
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 14, 2007, 12:06:16 PM
Sorry Harry but I can not help you here...I am a diehard fan of the operas of Wagner and Verdi. Its difficult for me to sit through an operetta....it just doesn't satisfy my appetite for dramatic power and vocal intensity. I get such an emotional rush from the operas of Wagner and Verdi that no operetta can give me. On the positive side if you like operetta, then the next stop is an opera!!!!
marvin
That was also my idea
Marvin.Allthough I will never convert to Wagner or Verdi.
Quote from: Siedler on June 14, 2007, 12:14:12 PM
I'm not a fan of operettas but I'd watch this Fledermaus out of curiosity: ;D
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TVSXDNJTL._SS500_.jpg)
Looks like a modern approach. ;D
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 14, 2007, 12:06:16 PM
Sorry Harry but I can not help you here...I am a diehard fan of the operas of Wagner and Verdi. Its difficult for me to sit through an operetta....it just doesn't satisfy my appetite for dramatic power and vocal intensity. I get such an emotional rush from the operas of Wagner and Verdi that no operetta can give me. On the positive side if you like operetta, then the next stop is an opera!!!!
marvin
Not everything in music is about power and intensity. In that case we would all be listening to Mahler 6 & 9 all the time, with no time for all those wonderful Mozart divertimenti!
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 12:25:16 PM
That was also my idea Marvin.
Allthough I will never convert to Wagner or Verdi.
Wagner's
Tristan und Isolde and
Parsifal are worth converting.
Verdi is overrated.
Puccini rules!
Quote from: 71 dB on June 14, 2007, 12:30:23 PM
Wagner's Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal are worth converting.
Verdi is overrated.
Puccini rules!
Oops, heavy swallowing! ;D
Read my lines -
I will not convert ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 12:26:37 PM
Looks like a modern approach. ;D
Not only modern, but also very controversial! That's the production from the Salzburger Festspiele 2001 where Mortier, the festival director, stuck his tongue out at the staid, ultra conservative Salzburgers by presenting the
Hans Neuenfels production.
The best part is the conducting by
Marc Minkowski, he had a ball!
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 09:21:54 AM
Should I be ashamed liking operettas I wonder?
Absolutely not! Why should you? It's fine music, full of
joie de vivre and catchy tunes. Light? To be sure: just as a cup of good champaign. Frivolous? No doubt: just as a
plateau full of Viennese cakes.
La dolce vita at its best.
So, my dear Harry, don't be ashamed for loving the simple joys of life!
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 12:32:07 PM
Oops, heavy swallowing! ;D
Read my lines -I will not convert ;D
Are you saying
Mussorgsky is the only romantic opera composer you convert to? ???
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 12:29:36 PM
Not everything in music is about power and intensity. In that case we would all be listening to Mahler 6 & 9 all the time, with no time for all those wonderful Mozart divertimenti!
Give that man a cigar!! ;D
<--------------l
Quote from: donwyn on June 14, 2007, 12:40:58 PM
Give that man a cigar!! ;D
<--------------l
Cuban! Hmmm...I think I'll play a Divertimento right now.
Sarge
Quote from: 71 dB on June 14, 2007, 12:40:38 PM
Are you saying Mussorgsky is the only romantic opera composer you convert to? ???
No, my friend, all what I am saying is this, never ever Wagner, and Verdi close second.
Of course I will buy more operas of all genres, but excluding above mentioned composers.
Quote from: Florestan on June 14, 2007, 12:38:57 PM
Absolutely not! Why should you? It's fine music, full of joie de vivre and catchy tunes. Light? To be sure: just as a cup of good champaign. Frivolous? No doubt: just as a plateau full of Viennese cakes. La dolce vita at its best.
So, my dear Harry, don't be ashamed for loving the simple joys of life!
I needed those comforting words
Andrei thank you! ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 01:07:08 PM
No, my friend, all what I am saying is this, never ever Wagner, and Verdi close second.
Of course I will buy more operas of all genres, but excluding above mentioned composers.
Okay, Sir! ;)
I exclude Verdi because I don't like his music. Wagner is okay for me.
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 01:07:08 PM
No, my friend, all what I am saying is this, never ever Wagner, and Verdi close second.
Of course I will buy more operas of all genres, but excluding above mentioned composers.
You say that now,
Harry. With more operatic exposure, who knows!
O the things you'll hear! ;)
Harry, are you saying you don't mind sopranos if they're singing Lehar, but you do if they sing Verdi?
In the US, operetta is synonymous with Gilbert & Sullivan. I have played in pit orchestras for something like 8 of their 14 shows, plus I've conducted amateur productions of The Mikado and Trial by Jury. It's fun stuff. After doing Pirates, I couldn't get the tunes out of my head for the next couple of months.
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 12:32:07 PM
Read my lines -I will not convert ;D
A comprehensive survey of cult members, Wagnerites and other religious converts, mostly highly educated, rational members of society, shows that 90% of these people's famous last words when first making a trial approach to THE PATH, was ---
"I will NOT convert."
Operettas are very easy to stage ......... badly.
Unfortunately many companies (both amateur and professional) believe that operettas are foolproof. WRONG!!!!!!!!!
If anything more care needs to be taken when casting and directing operettas (than operas) because they cannot be "saved" by superlative singing alone. They cannot be successfully performed by stand-and-delver singers (regardless of how good their voices may be); they usually require singing actors with exemplary comedic timing (a rarity among opera singers) and direction that never allows a show to "sag". All of the artistic elements must be of the highest order for an operetta to succeed on-stage.
The finest operetta performers tend to specialize in the area, the stage skills required are usually of a higher standard than most opera singers are capable of producing. Operettas tend to be more ensemble pieces than many operas, a standout superstar performer will not be able to save an inadequate operetta production if the rest of the cast are not also first rate and combine well together.
A company needs to devote at least the same attention to detail when staging an operetta as it would to a Verdi or Wagner work.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2007, 12:51:07 PM
Cuban! Hmmm...I think I'll play a Divertimento right now.
Sarge
;)
Well, I would to lend some moral support to the operetta lovers' side; unfortunately, I'm not an expert of any kind, so I can't make many informed suggestions. However, I noticed that the suggestions so far have been German or Austrian; perhaps Harry would like to try something French? Last Sunday I heard a radio broadcast of this opera comique by Auber (it has spoken dialogue so I think that qualifies it as operetta, right?), and I liked it so much I ordered a copy; "Le Domino Noir" with Sumi Jo (really unfortunate photo of her on the cover!)
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/LydianAirs/41GKA7NWNJL.jpg)
I know "sparkling" is a cliche for this sort of thing, but it really does apply to this. It's silly but charming. It received some very good
comments from some apparently well-informed folks over at Amazon. It just arrived this afternoon, so as soon as I get a chance to listen to it properly, I'll report back.
Quote from: Joan on June 14, 2007, 08:34:08 PM
perhaps Harry would like to try something French?
Or the Spanish Zarzuelas (http://www.zarzuela.net/). Their melodies and rythms are an infectious delight.
Quote from: Steve on June 14, 2007, 05:04:01 PM
You say that now, Harry. With more operatic exposure, who knows! O the things you'll hear! ;)
Mark ;D my words, no, and double no!
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on June 14, 2007, 05:29:26 PM
Harry, are you saying you don't mind sopranos if they're singing Lehar, but you do if they sing Verdi?
Yes, funny huh, I did not work that out exactly, why that is. I am wondering about that for 35 years now, and still no answer.
Quote from: springrite on June 14, 2007, 06:48:25 PM
A comprehensive survey of cult members, Wagnerites and other religious converts, mostly highly educated, rational members of society, shows that 90% of these people's famous last words when first making a trial approach to THE PATH, was --- "I will NOT convert."
You'll see my friend, I am firm in resolve! :)
Quote from: Joan on June 14, 2007, 08:34:08 PM
Well, I would to lend some moral support to the operetta lovers' side; unfortunately, I'm not an expert of any kind, so I can't make many informed suggestions. However, I noticed that the suggestions so far have been German or Austrian; perhaps Harry would like to try something French? Last Sunday I heard a radio broadcast of this opera comique by Auber (it has spoken dialogue so I think that qualifies it as operetta, right?), and I liked it so much I ordered a copy; "Le Domino Noir" with Sumi Jo (really unfortunate photo of her on the cover!)
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/LydianAirs/41GKA7NWNJL.jpg)
I know "sparkling" is a cliche for this sort of thing, but it really does apply to this. It's silly but charming. It received some very good
comments from some apparently well-informed folks over at Amazon. It just arrived this afternoon, so as soon as I get a chance to listen to it properly, I'll report back.
Looks absolutely promising! :) Will wait for your review Joan.
Quote from: Florestan on June 14, 2007, 10:31:18 PM
Or the Spanish Zarzuelas (http://www.zarzuela.net/). Their melodies and rythms are an infectious delight.
Nice site, have been there, stayed long, so yes looks promising too.
Thanks
Andrei.
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 10:55:05 PM
Mark ;D my words, no, and double no!
If one considers the positive in math (+ as yes), and the negative (- as no), then a double no is a double negative, which happens to be a positive. Subtle,
Harry, subtle. ;D
Quote from: Steve on June 14, 2007, 11:06:51 PM
If one considers the positive in math (+ as yes), and the negative (- as no), then a double no is a double negative, which happens to be a positive. Subtle, Harry, subtle. ;D
O, have it your way.................. ;D
I did not have coffee yet, so I cannot argue right now! 8)
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 11:10:58 PM
O, have it your way.................. ;D
I did not have coffee yet, so I cannot argue right now! 8)
I'm up well past 2:00am here, so it's off to sleep now. ;D
Quote from: Steve on June 14, 2007, 11:12:33 PM
I'm up well past 2:00am here, so it's off to sleep now. ;D
All those time zones, terribly confusing!
Sleep well my friend.
Quote from: Harry on June 14, 2007, 11:16:17 PM
All those time zones, terribly confusing!
Sleep well my friend.
Till morrow, then.
Quote from: Joan on June 14, 2007, 08:34:08 PM
it has spoken dialogue so I think that qualifies it as operetta, right?
Actually no. Otherwise we would be able to call
Fidelio and
Carmen operettas, which of course they are not. Officially the former is a
Singspiel and the latter an
Opera-comique. Quite what constitutes an operetta is hard to say. Offenbach's
La Belle Helene and
Orphee aux Enfers are operettas, but his
Les Contes d'Hofmann isn't, though it also has spoken dialogue. Nor is theme a guide. There are operas on light hearted themes, just as there are operettas on serious ones. According to
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of OperaOperetta. operette (
It, Fr little opera). Originally used in the 17th cent. for a shoprt opera, the term became associated by the 19th cent. with comic opera, to describe a play with an overture, songs, interludes, and dances.
Wikipedia defines it thus;
Operetta is a genre of light opera, light in terms both of music and subject matter.
Normally some of the libretto is spoken rather than sung. Instead of moving from one musical number (literally so indicated in the scores) to another, the singers intersperse the musical segments (e.g. aria, recitative, chorus) with periods of dialogue without any singing or musical accompaniment, though sometimes some musical themes are played quietly under the dialogue) - and short passages of recitative are by no means unknown in operetta, especially as an introduction to a song.
Operettas are often considered less "serious" than operas, although this has more to do with the often comic (or even farcical) plots than with the caliber of the music. Topical satire is a feature common to many operettas, although of course this is also true of some "serious" operas as well. Formerly, opera expressed politics in code in some countries, such as France; e.g., the circumstances of the title character in the opera "Robert le Diable" was a code for the parental conflict and resolution of king of France at its first performance.
Operetta is a precursor of the modern musical comedy. At the same time it has continued to exist alongside the newer form - with each influencing the other. There is a fundamental but subtle distinction between the two forms - and this distinction is quite useful, provided we recognise that nothing here is clear, simple, or unambiguous.
Most operettas can be described as light operas with acting, whereas most musicals are closer to being plays with singing. This can best be seen in the performers chosen in the two forms. An operetta's cast will normally be classically trained opera singers; indeed, there is essentially no difference between the scores for an opera and an operetta, except for the operetta's lightness. A musical uses actors who sing, but usually not in an operatic style. Like most "differential definitions" we could draw between the two forms, however, this distinction is quite often blurred. W.S. Gilbert, for example, said that he preferred to use actors who could sing for his productions, while Ezio Pinza, a great Don Giovanni, appeared on Broadway in South Pacific, and there are features of operetta vocal style both in Kern's Show Boat (1927), Bernstein's Candide, and Walt Disney's animated Snow White (1937) among others.
Confused? I think I still am.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 15, 2007, 01:29:04 AM
Actually no. Otherwise we would be able to call Fidelio and Carmen operettas, which of course they are not. Officially the former is a Singspiel and the latter an Opera-comique. Quite what constitutes an operetta is hard to say. Offenbach's La Belle Helene and Orphee aux Enfers are operettas, but his Les Contes d'Hofmann isn't, though it also has spoken dialogue. Nor is theme a guide. There are operas on light hearted themes, just as there are operettas on serious ones. According to The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Opera
Operetta. operette (It, Fr little opera). Originally used in the 17th cent. for a shoprt opera, the term became associated by the 19th cent. with comic opera, to describe a play with an overture, songs, interludes, and dances.
Wikipedia defines it thus;
Operetta is a genre of light opera, light in terms both of music and subject matter.
Normally some of the libretto is spoken rather than sung. Instead of moving from one musical number (literally so indicated in the scores) to another, the singers intersperse the musical segments (e.g. aria, recitative, chorus) with periods of dialogue without any singing or musical accompaniment, though sometimes some musical themes are played quietly under the dialogue) - and short passages of recitative are by no means unknown in operetta, especially as an introduction to a song.
Operettas are often considered less "serious" than operas, although this has more to do with the often comic (or even farcical) plots than with the caliber of the music. Topical satire is a feature common to many operettas, although of course this is also true of some "serious" operas as well. Formerly, opera expressed politics in code in some countries, such as France; e.g., the circumstances of the title character in the opera "Robert le Diable" was a code for the parental conflict and resolution of king of France at its first performance.
Operetta is a precursor of the modern musical comedy. At the same time it has continued to exist alongside the newer form - with each influencing the other. There is a fundamental but subtle distinction between the two forms - and this distinction is quite useful, provided we recognise that nothing here is clear, simple, or unambiguous.
Most operettas can be described as light operas with acting, whereas most musicals are closer to being plays with singing. This can best be seen in the performers chosen in the two forms. An operetta's cast will normally be classically trained opera singers; indeed, there is essentially no difference between the scores for an opera and an operetta, except for the operetta's lightness. A musical uses actors who sing, but usually not in an operatic style. Like most "differential definitions" we could draw between the two forms, however, this distinction is quite often blurred. W.S. Gilbert, for example, said that he preferred to use actors who could sing for his productions, while Ezio Pinza, a great Don Giovanni, appeared on Broadway in South Pacific, and there are features of operetta vocal style both in Kern's Show Boat (1927), Bernstein's Candide, and Walt Disney's animated Snow White (1937) among others.
Confused? I think I still am.
Well it clearly underlines some thoughts I had about the seriousness of music in operettas, and the quality of it.
Less serious operas, hmmmmmmmm!
Well that's good isn't it.
Thank you for this piece of info, it clarifies and blurs at the same time.! ;D
Quote from: erato on June 14, 2007, 12:29:36 PM
Not everything in music is about power and intensity. In that case we would all be listening to Mahler 6 & 9 all the time, with no time for all those wonderful Mozart divertimenti!
Yes but we are not talking about any music here...we are talking about opera. Opera and drama go hand in hand and thats where power and intensity come into it to provide for a truelly effective dramatic experience. Mahler 6 and 9 need not apply ;D.
marvin
No, in this thread we're talking operetta. It is as irrelevant bringing opera into it as bringing Mahler into a discussion on Mozart divertimenti. Different animals with different aims and intentions, and what's greatest is impossible to say as they operate on so different levels. If I had to choose between opera and operetta I wouldn't hesitate in plunging for opera, but both categories have their own raison d'être.
What I find somewhat annoying in some threads is the automatic assumption by many that bigger is better. That is wrong. Bigger usually is just bigger. Probably why I generally prefer chamber music to symphonic music, and lieder to opera.
Quote from: erato on June 15, 2007, 02:19:08 AM
What I find somewhat annoying in some threads is the automatic assumption by many that bigger is better. That is wrong. Bigger usually is just bigger.
Word.
So, somebody could end up liking operetta because they think it is opera-comique or light opera?
No bad thing, surely?
The distinctions are blurred, especially so when opera houses in Germany and Austria frequently stage "musicals" and 'Phantom of the Opera' is staged with a degree of seriousnees one would only expect for more serious works, and the ENO stages Sondheim!
As far as I'm concerned Gilbert and Sullivan is operetta and revered by the upper-middle classes, here, who have no taste but a great deal of vulgarity (and money) and have never fully understood that Gilbert's book and lyrics is taking the piss out of them! ;D
Quote from: erato on June 15, 2007, 02:19:08 AM
What I find somewhat annoying in some threads is the automatic assumption by many that bigger is better. That is wrong. Bigger usually is just bigger. Probably why I generally prefer chamber music to symphonic music, and lieder to opera.
Surely you and Floresten are not implying that J. Strauss' Die Fledermaus is in the league of or stands shoulder to shoulder with Verdi's Falstaff or Wagner's Die Meistersingers von Nurnberg?? (both comedies mind you ;) )
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 15, 2007, 05:12:09 AM
Surely you and Floresten are not implying that J. Strauss' Die Fledermaus is in the league of or stands shoulder to shoulder with Verdi's Falstaff or Wagner's Die Meistersingers von Nurnberg?? (both comedies mind you ;) )
marvin
Die Fledermaus is really a quite different "comedy" from something like
Meistersinger in that it's actually quite funny.
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 15, 2007, 05:12:09 AM
Surely you and Floresten are not implying that J. Strauss' Die Fledermaus is in the league of or stands shoulder to shoulder with Verdi's Falstaff or Wagner's Die Meistersingers von Nurnberg?? (both comedies mind you ;) )
marvin
I don't know about
erato, but I'm implying that Late Romanticism, with its big, overcrowded orchestras, its mammoth-like compositions and its philosophical and metaphysical pretenses has led many --- youngsters especially --- astray into believing that
that's the only legitimate, necessary and valid kind of music. I know Wagnerites and Mahlerites who mock and ridicule Italian operas (Verdi included) for not being serious and profound, dismiss Mozart for being soft and shallow, never ever bother to hear any composition written for less than 30 instruments and think German Late Romanticism is the pinnacle of mankind's spiritual achievements. It is against such a narrow and distorted worldview that I stand up in protest.
And I'm also implying no offense to anyone. :)
Good! :)
Because this thread is created to talk about operetta, and not Wagner and friends, Enough threads about them I would say! ;D
Quote from: bricon on June 14, 2007, 08:00:39 PM
If anything more care needs to be taken when casting and directing operettas (than operas) because they cannot be "saved" by superlative singing alone. They cannot be successfully performed by stand-and-delver singers (regardless of how good their voices may be); they usually require singing actors with exemplary comedic timing (a rarity among opera singers) and direction that never allows a show to "sag". All of the artistic elements must be of the highest order for an operetta to succeed on-stage.
The finest operetta performers tend to specialize in the area, the stage skills required are usually of a higher standard than most opera singers are capable of producing. Operettas tend to be more ensemble pieces than many operas, a standout superstar performer will not be able to save an inadequate operetta production if the rest of the cast are not also first rate and combine well together.
Word. Best post in this thread.
Thank you Florestan for writing my answer... ;D; point is, they are different animals and the Meistersinger is not better because it is bigger (and noisier). As I said in another post, I'd choose opera without doubt as an genre if I have to, but fortunately I don't.
Quote from: bricon on June 15, 2007, 05:39:38 AM
Die Fledermaus is really a quite different "comedy" from something like Meistersinger in that it's actually quite funny.
I'm with you on that. I've listened to
Meistersinger and haven't had a single laughter. Actually I was rather crying for the time lost. ;D
But the idea of Wagner writing a comedy --- that is indeed comic, and very funny for that matter. ;D
How about some more recommendations for operettas besides the ones I ordered.????
Quote from: Harry on June 15, 2007, 06:15:21 AM
How about some more recommendations for operettas besides the ones I ordered.????
Anything by
Karl Millocker is worth hearing, but especially
Der Bettelstudent and Gasparone.
I see that I am surrounded by operetta fans here who insist on proving their point..well if you believe that operetta has something special to offer that opera can not offer more power to you. As for me I know what quality is.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 15, 2007, 06:27:10 AM
I see that I am surrounded by operetta fans here who insist on proving their point..well if you believe that operetta has something special to offer that opera can not offer more power to you. As for me I know what quality is.
marvin
Why Marvin not accept that operetta can offer also a form of quality, and not to see it as a lesser ofspring of opera?
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2007, 06:25:24 AM
Anything by Karl Millocker is worth hearing, but especially Der Bettelstudent and Gasparone.
That's the spirit,
Andrei, some more on my list. ;D
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 15, 2007, 06:27:10 AM
I see that I am surrounded by operetta fans here who insist on proving their point..well if you believe that operetta has something special to offer that opera can not offer more power to you. As for me I know what quality is.
marvin
No points to prove. I like - some of them - for what they offer and for the opportunity they provide for some glorious singing that I find "more relaxed and natural" than many opera performances.
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 15, 2007, 06:27:10 AM
if you believe that operetta has something special to offer that opera can not offer
See? That's exactly my point: you seem to think in terms of
either / or. How about
both / and?
Quote from: Harry on June 15, 2007, 06:30:23 AM
That's the spirit, Andrei, some more on my list. ;D
Carl Zeller's
Der Vogelhandler.
And that whole load of
Zarzuelas, don't forget them. :)
Quote from: Harry on June 15, 2007, 06:29:43 AM
Why Marvin not accept that operetta can offer also a form of quality, and not to see it as a lesser ofspring of opera?
Harry that was exactly my point, I did not want to say it out loud for fear of being trampled on but now that you mentioned it, yes I believe (just an opinion) that operetta is a LESSAR offspring of opera. In my opinion, enjoy operetta as much as you like but treat it not as a final destination but rather a temporary stop on your way to opera land.
I think we beat this subject to death. Harry to address your concerns I have one version of Die Fledermaus (its the one with Placibo Domingo conducting in Covent Garden, the sound quality is very good...check it out).
marvin
marvin
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2007, 06:42:33 AM
Carl Zeller's Der Vogelhandler.
And that whole load of Zarzuelas, don't forget them. :)
I won't my friend, just keep them coming.
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on June 14, 2007, 05:29:26 PM
Harry, are you saying you don't mind sopranos if they're singing Lehar, but you do if they sing Verdi?
Good question. I'm puzzled too, Harry. :)
Ordered this DVD.
Comments welcome! :)
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2007, 06:48:32 AM
Good question. I'm puzzled too, Harry. :)
You all are reading only what you want to see, not what I actually wrote dudes! ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 15, 2007, 06:51:31 AM
You all are reading only what you want to see, not what I actually wrote dudes! ;D
I know, I know...
vibrato-less. But are there no
vibratos in operettas? ;D
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2007, 06:53:13 AM
I know, I know... vibrato-less. But are there no vibratos in operettas? ;D
A coloratura soprano has a vibrato that doesn't bother me at all, o, bloody h***, how am I supposed to explain something that I barely understand myself.
Years ago, when I had a chance to talk to Edo de Waart, a Dutch conductor, we talked about this subject, and he could not offer help, anymore as I can explain, but he at least understood the dilemma. :)
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 15, 2007, 06:27:10 AM
I see that I am surrounded by operetta fans here who insist on proving their point..well if you believe that operetta has something special to offer that opera can not offer more power to you. As for me I know what quality is.
marvin
Marvin, I think you are continually missing the point. I doubt anyone is implying that operettas, even the best ones, can be compared to the greatest works of Verdi and Wagner. The fact is they are completely different genres of music. And there are bad operettas, just as there are bad operas. I'd say
Die Fledermaus, for instance, is a far greater masterpiece (and I use the word advisedly), than many of the French Grand Operas being written round about the same time, by the likes of Meyerbeer and Halevy. Indeed I would go so far as to suggest that, for the most part, they wrote
lesser works than the majority of Offenbach's joyful
oeuvre.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 15, 2007, 06:58:58 AM
Marvin, I think you are continually missing the point. I doubt anyone is implying that operettas, even the best ones, can be compared to the greatest works of Verdi and Wagner. The fact is they are completely different genres of music. And there are bad operettas, just as there are bad operas. I'd say Die Fledermaus, for instance, is a far greater masterpiece (and I use the word advisedly), than many of the French Grand Operas being written round about the same time, by the likes of Meyerbeer and Halevy. Indeed I would go so far as to suggest that, for the most part, they wrote lesser works than the majority of Offenbach's joyful oeuvre.
Ok fair enough :)
marvin
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 15, 2007, 06:58:58 AM
Marvin, I think you are continually missing the point. I doubt anyone is implying that operettas, even the best ones, can be compared to the greatest works of Verdi and Wagner. The fact is they are completely different genres of music. And there are bad operettas, just as there are bad operas. I'd say Die Fledermaus, for instance, is a far greater masterpiece (and I use the word advisedly), than many of the French Grand Operas being written round about the same time, by the likes of Meyerbeer and Halevy. Indeed I would go so far as to suggest that, for the most part, they wrote lesser works than the majority of Offenbach's joyful oeuvre.
Tsaraslondon, thank you for expressing my thoughts. :)
Indeed,
Marvin, that's the whole point: one can love
opera and
operetta in the same time, just as one can love
Telemann and
Pettersson ---
Harry's case --- or
Boccherini and
Bartok --- my case --- without having to choose who's the best.
Actually, the same applies to you: I infer from your posts that you love
Verdi and
Wagner simultaneously --- and believe me, this is a crime for which the Wagnerites I know personally would hang you! :)
Now back to operetta's recommendations, otherwise Harry'll ban us forever on this thread...
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 15, 2007, 01:29:04 AM
Actually no. Otherwise we would be able to call Fidelio and Carmen operettas, which of course they are not. Officially the former is a Singspiel and the latter an Opera-comique. Quite what constitutes an operetta is hard to say. Offenbach's La Belle Helene and Orphee aux Enfers are operettas, but his Les Contes d'Hofmann isn't, though it also has spoken dialogue. Nor is theme a guide. There are operas on light hearted themes, just as there are operettas on serious ones. According to The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Opera
Operetta. operette (It, Fr little opera). Originally used in the 17th cent. for a shoprt opera, the term became associated by the 19th cent. with comic opera, to describe a play with an overture, songs, interludes, and dances.
Wikipedia defines it thus;
Operetta is a genre of light opera, light in terms both of music and subject matter.
Normally some of the libretto is spoken rather than sung. Instead of moving from one musical number (literally so indicated in the scores) to another, the singers intersperse the musical segments (e.g. aria, recitative, chorus) with periods of dialogue without any singing or musical accompaniment, though sometimes some musical themes are played quietly under the dialogue) - and short passages of recitative are by no means unknown in operetta, especially as an introduction to a song.
Operettas are often considered less "serious" than operas, although this has more to do with the often comic (or even farcical) plots than with the caliber of the music. Topical satire is a feature common to many operettas, although of course this is also true of some "serious" operas as well. Formerly, opera expressed politics in code in some countries, such as France; e.g., the circumstances of the title character in the opera "Robert le Diable" was a code for the parental conflict and resolution of king of France at its first performance.
Operetta is a precursor of the modern musical comedy. At the same time it has continued to exist alongside the newer form - with each influencing the other. There is a fundamental but subtle distinction between the two forms - and this distinction is quite useful, provided we recognise that nothing here is clear, simple, or unambiguous.
Most operettas can be described as light operas with acting, whereas most musicals are closer to being plays with singing. This can best be seen in the performers chosen in the two forms. An operetta's cast will normally be classically trained opera singers; indeed, there is essentially no difference between the scores for an opera and an operetta, except for the operetta's lightness. A musical uses actors who sing, but usually not in an operatic style. Like most "differential definitions" we could draw between the two forms, however, this distinction is quite often blurred. W.S. Gilbert, for example, said that he preferred to use actors who could sing for his productions, while Ezio Pinza, a great Don Giovanni, appeared on Broadway in South Pacific, and there are features of operetta vocal style both in Kern's Show Boat (1927), Bernstein's Candide, and Walt Disney's animated Snow White (1937) among others.
Confused? I think I still am.
Clear as mud! ;D
Thanks for bringing this point up; I suspected it was more complicated than just a matter of the spoken dialogue. Perhaps all these distinctions were more evident to contemporary audiences and critics, in the days when hundreds of these works were crowding the stage?
Wikipedia has some more explanation of the difference between French
opera comique and
operette , the two genres which I was erroneously conflating:
French composers eagerly seized upon the Italian model and made it their own, calling it opéra comique. Early proponents included François-Adrien Boïeldieu (1775–1834), Daniel François Auber (1782–1871) and Adolphe Adam (1803–1856). Although originally reserved for less serious works, the term opéra comique came to refer to any opera that included spoken dialogue, including works such as Bizet's Carmen that are not "comic" in any sense of the word.
Florimond Hervé (1825–1892) is credited as the inventor of French opéra bouffe, or opérette. [1]. Working on the same model, Jacques Offenbach (1819–1880 quickly surpassed him, writing over ninety operettas. Whereas earlier French comic operas had a mixture of sentiment and humour, Offenbach's works were intended solely to amuse. Though generally well crafted, plots and characters in his works were often interchangeable. Given the frenetic pace at which he worked, Offenbach sometimes used the same material in more than one opera.
Quote from: Joan on June 15, 2007, 11:23:06 AM
Clear as mud! ;D
Operetta is like pornography: we can't define it but we know it when we hear it ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 11:53:24 AM
Operetta is like pornography: we can't define it but we know it when we hear it ;D
Sarge
:)
Or like a brothel: you feel good inside but ashamed of going in. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on June 15, 2007, 12:01:05 PM
:)
Or like a brothel: you feel good inside but ashamed of going in. ;D
That's not my definition of operettas bad boys. Go to the Hustler channel for that! ;D
As a sort of punishment another recommendation! $:)
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on June 15, 2007, 06:58:58 AM
Marvin, I think you are continually missing the point. I doubt anyone is implying that operettas, even the best ones, can be compared to the greatest works of Verdi and Wagner. The fact is they are completely different genres of music. And there are bad operettas, just as there are bad operas. I'd say Die Fledermaus, for instance, is a far greater masterpiece (and I use the word advisedly), than many of the French Grand Operas being written round about the same time, by the likes of Meyerbeer and Halevy. Indeed I would go so far as to suggest that, for the most part, they wrote lesser works than the majority of Offenbach's joyful oeuvre.
There are certainly bad operas, but I don't waste much time listening to them. The operatic oeuvre of Wagner, Verdi, Rossini, Mozart, to name a few, more than satisfy my interests. With the exception of Fledermaus, I've never really been seriously impacted by an operetta. I just don't find much merit in them.
Quote from: Steve on June 15, 2007, 12:57:42 PM
There are certainly bad operas, but I don't waste much time listening to them. The operatic oeuvre of Wagner, Verdi, Rossini, Mozart, to name a few, more than satisfy my interests. With the exception of Fledermaus, I've never really been seriously impacted by an operetta. I just don't find much merit in them.
What should the merit be
Steve?
Quote from: Steve on June 15, 2007, 12:57:42 PM
There are certainly bad operas, but I don't waste much time listening to them. The operatic oeuvre of Wagner, Verdi, Rossini, Mozart, to name a few, more than satisfy my interests. With the exception of Fledermaus, I've never really been seriously impacted by an operetta. I just don't find much merit in them.
I think the problem (and solution as well) lies in the light entertainment aspect of operetta. This is also time bound, like vaudeville, after the advent of films and TV, not how people fill in their free evenings. Individual arias, if they are "hits", can be taken out and enjoyed separately. Not only the story lines are hackneyed (like zarzuelas) but the filler, connecting up the dots, in general is weak, and even boring to an educated listener.
That's why
Fledermaus and
Tales of Hoffman were on a different level from the more popular output of the same composers. And even in American musical theater, this is why Gershwin's
Porgy and Bess was different from
"Lady be Good" and his other potboilers. Hundreds, if not thousands of musicals were written and performed over the last century but there are a few of real enduring value as whole works.
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 16, 2007, 09:47:03 PM
Hundreds, if not thousands of musicals were written and performed over the last century but there are a few of real enduring value as whole works.
The definition of an "enduring work" can be quite transient.
Cosi fan tutte (for example) was considered something less than worthless for over a century (its US premiere wasn't until 1922); Handel's operas were mostly out of the repertoire for nearly 2 centuries, the bel canto boom (largely) had to wait 'till Callas and Sutherland hit the scene in the 1950s ..........
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 16, 2007, 09:47:03 PM
Hundreds, if not thousands of musicals were written and performed over the last century but there are a few of real enduring value as whole works.
ZB
I think that is an over simplification. Many of Rodgers and Hammerstein's musicals are continually revived.
The Sound of Music is having a tremendously successful run again in London and
South Pacific is about to go out on tour again. English National Opera have just revived Bernstein's
On The Town and are about to do
Kismet. Sondheim's musicals, though often not successful when originally produced, are now taken seriously, and continually revived, often by opera companies. Even Lloyd Webber's musicals are continually being revived. There has hardly been a time when
Jospeh and the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat hasn't been playing somewhere in the world and
Evita recently had an excellent revival in London, as did
Jesus Christ Superstar before it. I can think of loads of musicals that are successfully revived by amateurs and repertory companies. I don't think that the situation is that different in opera. There are also hundreds of operas written, in the nineteenth century in particular, that have disappeared without trace, some of them by composers with huge successes attached to their names.
By the way, one can certainly compare
Die Fledermaus to Offenbach's
La Vie Parisienne, but not to his
les Contes d'Hofmann. This was to have been Offenbach's attempt at opera, though in the end, it became an
opera-comique. It is emphatically not an operetta.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 16, 2007, 09:47:03 PM
And even in American musical theater, this is why Gershwin's Porgy and Bess was different from "Lady be Good" and his other potboilers.
ZB
How come that when the young Mozart dashes of a mediocre Singspiel in a few weeks it is taken as proof of his genius, when Gershwin writes a musical in some months full of evergreens that are enjoyed by millions and has stood the test of time, it is a potboiler?
Quote from: erato on June 17, 2007, 02:43:51 AM
How come that when the young Mozart dashes of a mediocre Singspiel in a few weeks it is taken as proof of his genius, when Gershwin writes a musical in some months full of evergreens that are enjoyed by millions and has stood the test of time, it is a potboiler?
Personally, I wouldn't call it a potboiler.
Lady Be Good is still often revived, despite its rather weak book. Why? George Gershwin's music of course. Incidentally, the original
Porgy and Bess was a through -composed opera in 3 acts and it is this version that has received 3 fine recordings (condcucted by Lorin Maazel, John De Main and Simon Rattle respectively). In a revival, shortly after Gershwin's death, it was essentially turned into a musical through rewriting and rescoring.