GMG Classical Music Forum

5 days after the Haïti earthquake, I haven't seen ONE mention of the event.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I clearly recall the Katrina and tsunami threads. This catastrophe is of similar magnitude, and much closer to (american) home. And yet, I have a feeling everybody is busy watching the birds and the clouds  ::).  Is it because most of the victims are Black? Or maybe they brought this upon themselves by selling their soul to the Devil?

Honestly, I have to say I'm surprised... Maybe the search engine failed to bring up the expected flood of posts on the subject?

I don't think race has anything to do with it.  Most of the victims of Hurricane Katrina were black, at least in New Orleans, which received the most media coverage.  And I seriously doubt anyone here believes the Haitians brought it on themselves by selling their soul to the devil.  At least I hope not.  ::)

I cannot answer for anyone else, but I personally was not interested in starting a thread on the topic because everywhere I turn the media is bombarding me with it, and as a result I have no interest in discussing it.  Perhaps I have become desensitized to natural disasters that do not directly affect me?  Or maybe the situation in Haiti seems so hopeless that I am more comfortable tuning it out?  It could just be that an earthquake in Haiti is not very surprising, and therefore lacks the sex appeal of an enormous wave devastating multiple nations or the city of New Orleans drowning.  I honestly don't know.

Quote from: Keemun on January 16, 2010, 07:36:30 PM
Or maybe the situation in Haiti seems so hopeless that I am more comfortable tuning it out? 

That's kind of how I feel...

Quote from: Keemun on January 16, 2010, 07:36:30 PM
  And I seriously doubt anyone here believes the Haitians brought it on themselves by selling their soul to the devil.  At least I hope not.  ::)

Think again...http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html    :P

QuoteOr maybe the situation in Haiti seems so hopeless that I am more comfortable tuning it out?

Probably. There's a general ennui about Haiti's hopeless situation. Still, some 200000 are dead by now, and the count mounts by the hour.

It's a big story here because of the size of the haitian community. Just about every one in greater Montreal knows someone who's affected by the disaster. Because of the language, a large professional and university-educated haitian community has settled in Quebec. Doctors, surgeons, nurses, engineers, lawyers, university professors, writers, musicians, cops, members of parliament...

And the ordinary folks as well, of course - cooks, orderlies, hookers, street gang criminals. Just like us White folks...

'5 years after the Haïti earthquake,'

you have a time machine?

Quote from: Greg on January 16, 2010, 07:40:59 PM
That's kind of how I feel...

Me too. And speaking just for myself, I find natural disasters boring, at least from a discussion POV. There's no one to blame (except God, or the Devil, as some people are saying).

Quote from: Keemun on January 16, 2010, 07:36:30 PM
And I seriously doubt anyone here believes the Haitians brought it on themselves by selling their soul to the devil. 

Quote from: Barak on January 16, 2010, 08:08:16 PM
Think again...http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html    :P

Pat Robertson posts here?

Quote from: Barak on January 16, 2010, 08:08:16 PM
Think again...http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/01/13/haiti.pat.robertson/index.html    :P

By "here" I meant at GMG.  :)

Quote from: Barak on January 16, 2010, 07:01:22 PM
5 years after the Haïti earthquake, I haven't seen ONE mention of the event.  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I clearly recall the Katrina and tsunami threads. This catastrophe is of similar magnitude, and much closer to (american) home.

??? Haiti's closer to "(american) home" than New Orleans???

The War Nerd's take on Haiti, from a few years back...

http://exiledonline.com/homage-to-haiti-a-war-nerd-classic/#more-16946

Quote from: Wendell_E on January 17, 2010, 06:45:20 AM
??? Haiti's closer to "(american) home" than New Orleans???

Haha! Of course...  Although you wouldn't have guessed it from the snail's pace of the governmen't response to the disaster. New Orleans could have well have been in Patagonia - relief might have come sooner  ::) I hadn't intended to bring in Katrina in my post, that's why. But I figured it might help dig a hole in the thick skin of indifference. Looks like nothing can... :'(

Quote from: Velimir on January 17, 2010, 06:45:39 AM
The War Nerd's take on Haiti, from a few years back...

http://exiledonline.com/homage-to-haiti-a-war-nerd-classic/#more-16946

Some of the posters on that site have colourful nicknames fuckniggas, OrangePlus   ::). In any case, I fail to see what's the connection between the country's turbulent history and its present plight.

Because of its terminal state of poverty and despondency, Haïti has been the goodwill outlet of thousands of individuals and organizations eager to put their energies to good use (home is always so blah...). There are more religious missions, relief, training and assistance teams from the world over than in any other country. 'Doing Haïti' is chic. And you can expect that it will be in the same situation in 20, 40, 100 years. So reassuring.

At last count, 130 UN troops have disappeared, buried alive under the debris of their Headquarters. About 1000 Canadians have either died or disappeared. One of my friends who had just arrived 2 hours earlier was in a backyard garden taking a drink with his haitian friend. His host went in to fetch something - and never came out. His house had come down on him in less than 10 seconds. My friend is back since yesterday. He only survived because he stayed outside. I don't know about the USA, but I'd imagine it's anywhere between 4000 and 8000. On top of the 200000 natives of course. 25000 have hastily been dumped in mass graves on the outskirts of the capital.

Right now, rescue teams are discovering destroyed cities and villages outside of Port-au-Prince. As many as 1 million are homeless. The capital's harbour has been heavily damaged and will not be of any use for at least 3 months. That leaves ONE airstrip as the single way of receiving aid and personnel. The challenge is to bring them out and into the areas they are most needed. A hard task, as roads are either damaged or littered with debris.

The US response seems to have been prompt and adequate. US army forces have taken hold of airport operations (as per a standing treaty) and operations seem to have improved. Hopefully they will be able to pull out as many corpses as could be. Yesterday's night news showed trucks loaded with corpses heading toward the garbage refuse site, where they were quickly dumped. Heads, hands and feet protruding from the dark mass  :P.

We all have the option to zap channels and watch Biggest Loser or some other reality show. Suffering is so annoying.

Finally have some good news (on a personal level): my brother-in-law and his group were evacuated yesterday. They were holed up in an Apostolic mission compound about 100 miles from Port au Prince. The State Department told my sister that they couldn't send help but would try to get them out of the country if they came to the capital. But they had no gasoline for travel and dwindling supplies of food and medicine. A Methodist missionary group came to their rescue. They flew in a couple of small planes and took them to Nassau. My borther-in-law should be home tomorrow.

Sarge

Excellent, Sarge.

Rescue efforts are very difficult. Amputations are performed by the hundreds every day. But amputees are not looked after, as there is a constant stream of people needing immediate care. Wounds get infected fast. Gangrene is a major hazard. Spine injuries abound, but there are no wheelchairs.

Only one hotel in the capital has been spared (The Plaza), as it stands above the city on a hilly side (elevated constructions suffer the least from an earthquake). Everything is in working order. The whole hotel - rooms, conference rooms and all facilities - has been bought out by the big networks (CNN, ABC, NBC, Reuters, RTL, RAI). Journalists can sleep, shower, have their laundry done, eat and communicate as if nothing had happened. The Netherlands Marine Corps mounts guard (Source) (http://www.cyberpresse.ca/le-soleil/dossiers/seisme-en-haiti/201001/21/01-941638-port-au-prince-lhotel-plaza-roule-sur-lor.php)
.
The non-existant haitian Government wants to move out 400000 people from the capital into makeshift camps. Latest estimates are 200000 dead, 250000 injured and 2000000 (2 million) homeless,

Meanwhile, geological surveys figure 'the next Big One' should occur in LA, Tokyo, Tehran, Oregon or Indonesia. There should be good hillside hotel locations to accommodate journalists. Nothing to worry, CNN will still stream in.

Barak, please know that just because there isn't a thread about something on GMG, it doesn't mean that something isn't important, thought about, talked about, acted upon, etc. by posters here. You have NO idea what GMG members may be doing in their personal lives in response to this, or any other, disaster, and to assume that people don't care about something simply because they aren't talking about it here is silly. So, too, is suggesting that people are racist because they aren't conforming to your posting expectations.

Sarge, I'm glad your b-i-l and his group are okay!

Sorry, Owlice, but you're sooooo off the mark.... :-\

Quote from: david johnson on January 17, 2010, 12:13:20 AM
'5 years after the Haïti earthquake,'

you have a time machine?

I am equally puzzled, no one else has said anything, is it really 2015  :o

Quote from: Barak on January 22, 2010, 04:36:08 PM
Sorry, Owlice, but you're sooooo off the mark.... :-\

I dunno how making a thread about it keeps you out of the "asshole" category. How much have you donated?

Quote from: Lethe on January 23, 2010, 04:07:23 AM
I dunno how making a thread about it keeps you out of the "asshole" category. How much have you donated?

I think you're underestimating the charity value of moral grandstanding on an obscure forum devoted to classical music.

Official death toll (bodies counted) is now at 111000. It will take months to clear up rubble and uncover the remaining victims. 610000 Port-au-Prince inhabitants live in some 500 makeshift camps. A conference will be held Monday with 'friends of Haiti' countries (France, Brasil, USA and Canada), to better coordinate relief efforts. In March another conference will be held about reconstruction. At this point, the haitian government has a hard time figuring what role it will play in the months to come. The task is so enormous that it will probably require a multinational involvement for a prolonged period of time.

Adoption regulations slow down the attempts of many parents to adopt haitian children. Dozens of children have arrived in France, the United States and other countries. Canada is still lagging behind, but the first orphans will arrive tomorrow. Those are the children who were already at the end of the paperwork tunnel. New adoptions will be difficult to complete, as in many cases there is no certainty that the parents are actually dead. Understandably, authorities want to avoid another 'Darfur orphans' scandal. Unfortunately there is evidence of 'orphan traffic' going on. BEFORE the earthquake, there were 380000 children in the country's orphanages...

Lethe, I gave 350$. Why do you ask?

Because I was interested whether your trashing of how you imagine everybody here is reacting to the event had any substance behind it.

Quote from: Cristofori on January 23, 2010, 10:34:18 AM
I agree with that sentiment.

We can become desensitized to the goings on in certain places, in the way we can with violence/foul language in TV or movies. Mostly because over long periods of time, certain places on the planet always seem to remain perpetual hellholes, despite everybody's noble intentions or best efforts.

You're putting it much better than I have done so far. Apparently I've only managed to infuriate readers. I've reread my posts and I don't think I've 'trashed everybody here'. Maybe this could have given that impression:

QuoteBut I figured it might help dig a hole in the thick skin of indifference. Looks like nothing can... :'(

. But trashing everybody? Label them assholes?  ???

Credit card companies were under fire when disaster struck, as they treat charities and relief organizations like any other clients. IOW they levy 2-4% on donations as a service charge to the 'merchant'. American Express has been prompt to react to the criticism and announced early on that it was forfeiting any charge on Haiti donations. Visa and Master Card dragged their feet for a week, but they followed suit (until February 28 only). 

Quote from: Barak on January 23, 2010, 02:54:57 PM
I've reread my posts and I don't think I've 'trashed everybody here'. Maybe this could have given that impression: . But trashing everybody? Label them assholes?  ???

I'm not sure I would have phrased it as Lethe did, but I certainly got the same impression from your posts. You have inferred that, because we GMGers did not start and become actively engaged in a thread about the Haiti disaster, we are indifferent to the suffering that is going on there and are possibly racist. Perhaps that was not your intent, but that's how I read what you were saying.

My city has a large Haitian-American population and in the high school in which I teach, more than 10% of the students are of Haitian descent. There is tremendous concern throughout the community for those affected and my school has made considerable efforts in providing emotional as well as monetary support to the kids and their families. Montreal is not unique in its situation or actions.

As someone who 'fessed up to watching television in the "Is TV a thing of the past for you?" thread, I was already aware of most of the horrifying and heart-breaking facts you have mentioned here. Coverage has been extensive and constant. Perhaps the main reason for my not posting earlier was due to my inability to offer any solutions.

Quote from: owlice on January 22, 2010, 04:50:18 AM
Barak, please know that just because there isn't a thread about something on GMG, it doesn't mean that something isn't important, thought about, talked about, acted upon, etc. by posters here. You have NO idea what GMG members may be doing in their personal lives in response to this, or any other, disaster, and to assume that people don't care about something simply because they aren't talking about it here is silly. So, too, is suggesting that people are racist because they aren't conforming to your posting expectations.

Seconded.

Thanks, Tony. I realize from your and Owlice's reply that genuine concern is present, if not actively communicated. My impression was one of general indifference to the situation. Maybe it was a sense of helplessness as you mention.

Over there, all search and rescue efforts have ceased. It is presumed there are no survivors under the rubble. The next step for the international aid teams is to care for the survivors. Food and water supplies are hard to get on the terrain, and what does get there is not even a tenth of what's needed.

Quote from: Barak on January 23, 2010, 05:47:29 PM
Thanks, Tony. I realize from your and Owlice's reply that genuine concern is present, if not actively communicated. My impression was one of general indifference to the situation. Maybe it was a sense of helplessness as you mention.

It's difficult to come to terms with a tragedy like this. This suffering was not caused by an act of war, terrorism, or some sort of negligence. There is no group or individual at which we can vent our anger and outrage. This was an act of nature that brought horror to thousands of innocent people going about their day-to-day business just as we did today and will do tomorrow. Not being able to help makes it all the harder to absorb.

My husband and I have supported (in a modest way--we're not wealthy) some development programs in Haiti over the past few years, especially literacy and reforestation.  We are contributing what we can now to the relief efforts, but the heartbreaking devastation in Port au Prince is going to take long-term commitment to rebuild.  An article in the Washington Post this morning focused on what it will mean to Haiti that the majority of the schools in the capital city have been leveled.  We don't feel completely helpless, but we do feel that whatever we can do or contribute will be a very, very small drop in a huge, leaky bucket.  Nevertheless, we'll put that drop in every time we can.

Quote from: Barak on January 23, 2010, 02:54:57 PM
But trashing everybody? Label them assholes?  ???

It was just a reductio ad absurdum.

Edit: BTW, if you'd like a more likely explanation for the Tsunami vs. Haiti interest discrepancy, it is not racism or amorality, it's because tsunamis are interesting and unusual and earthquakes are boring and common. As death tolls become so high as to be irrelevent (how can one seriously visualise the difference between 20k in Iran and 200k in Haiti?), you give the reason why you are affected more than many of us - because you know communities involved. There's a fair chance that my town doesn't have a single Haitian resident in it, and as a result this remote disaster is the same as all the other remote disasters, only with the newspapers shouting even higher numbers than usual. This isn't to say that my actions are indifferent of these disasters - I have been volunteering at Oxfam shops twice a week for two years - but this is a personal decision because I have the spare time available from not having to work full-time, and I don't buy into a competition to see who can do or say the most, nor do I feel that people who are choosing to do something that could help people in difficulty should be obliged to "announce" it, as I have just hypocritically gotten you to do so, and also done so myself :-\

It was certainly not my intention to announce what little I did with regard to Haiti. But it's a lot more than what I did for the Tsunami (IIRC it was 25$ then). The proximity of the disaster and the visible presence (no pun intended) of the haitian community here played a role in that increased awareness. At this point in time, donating is the only hting I can do. Work and family duties take up all my time. As a financial planner, I'm continually surprised to hear how many people look forward to their retirement to do volunteer work -  finally being able to live up to their personal values. This Friday I was with a client, a bright, energetic 55-year old business organizational analyst. There was no question in her mind that once retired she'd spend half her time working in volunteer programs.

(back from diaper changing duties :))

There's a very prominent haitian cultural presence here.  Canada's Governor General Michaëlle Jean is haitian-born. She makes her job quite a lot more interesting to watch as her predecessors have (a boring and stuffy ceremonial role at best). Coincidentally, earlier this month (before eathquake struck) the talk of the town in Ottawa was the PM looking to replace her by someone less flamboyant. PM Stephen Harper hasn't digested her keeping him for a 2-hour talk when he came in to ask her to prorogue the parliamentary session to avoid being toppled by the majority opposition parties. What was supposed to be a formality ended up being more arduous than he had envisaged. He certainly won't dare replace her before a couple of years...

Tomorrow's Montreal Conference (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1178662/headline) will start international coordination of efforts to rebuild Haiti. Hight level officials from the IMF, World Bank, as well as political deciders including many foreign affairs ministers (France's Bernard Kouchner, US Secretary of State Clinton) will gather. Hopefully it will be more fruitful than the blah results of the Copenhague Summit.

Quote from: Barak on January 23, 2010, 02:54:57 PM
You're putting it much better than I have done so far. Apparently I've only managed to infuriate readers. I've reread my posts and I don't think I've 'trashed everybody here'. Maybe this could have given that impression:

. But trashing everybody? Label them assholes?  ???

You didn't literally label everyone "assholes," but did speculate that everyone here is a racist, and accuse everyone of indifference.

I cannot speak for others and I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm "infuriated," but I certainly found your posts on this thread obnoxious, and from having read your posts on other threads, I find this surprising, because this is very different from the way you usually post.

Well, FWIW (and I do realize this thread is beginning to stray in an entirely wrong direction) I never felt Barak was labeling everyone anything... I do find it odd, though, that this far into the "discussion" Haiti still gets so little mention.

Of course, it wouldn't hurt if the title of the first post were edited to better reflect what this thread was apparently meant to be about (the Hatitian earthquake, I presume).

Thanks for the tip, Maciek, but I've tried that last week and it didn't work. True, the title is inappropriate to the subject and the ensuing discussion. I modified the first post's title, but it doesn't change the thread name, How do you do that?

Latest news (which I'm sure are not news to many people) is that 150000 people are dead in Port-au-Prince. That does not include casualties outside of the capital. Communications are still quite difficult. Some 900000 people are now housed in tent camps, where sanitaries are non-existant. The posh Haiti Golf Club terrain has been transformed into a 100000 people refugee camp.

The preliminary conference of 'friendly countries' has estimated 10 years will be needed to reconstruct the country - or its lower half if you prefer. There is also a consensus that the BBB plan should be adhered to (build it back better).

Diplomats have been clear in their assurance that Haiti's government will not be pushed aside (what else could they say?). But that is far from certain. As has been mentioned, Haiti has for decades been considered one of World's 'hellholes' (as has been mentioned here). The nation's various governments, their cronies and thugs are in good part to blame for that dismal state of affairs. IMO, any form of budgetary envelope for reconstruction efforts should be closely monitored. The sums spent will likely be colossal. UN should probably be best placed to perform that task.

The real reconstruction international conference will be held in March in NY.


Obviously, questions do arise. How much, how long, and why? There are no clear-cut answers to any of these questions. But there is a real danger that Haiti descends into total chaos. Its proximity to Cuba and Venezuela could be an important factor in the USA's involvement, as is the fact that it's house to the largest haitian diaspora in the world (mostly in the NYC and Miami areas).

The most confusing thing is the amount of US troops there vs. how little is happening. There are urban areas that are now "no go" due to criminal gangs - why aren't there troop patrols? It's not as simplistic as to stop crime, it allows many other things such as allowing the army to learn what is actually going on rather than this example from a UK TV news interview, in which a commander of the US forces was somehow unaware of a large refugee camp of people with no food 100ft from the airport the troops were based in.

The swift US response looked like a very positive thing at first until nothing happened with it.

Friends & colleagues here in Boston are organizing an earthquake relief benefit concert (http://instantencore.com/concert/details.aspx?PId=5055040), in which they will sing my De profundis.

Quote from: Lethe on January 26, 2010, 01:22:23 AM


The swift US response looked like a very positive thing at first until nothing happened with it.

     Soldiers are no better at disaster relief than they are at war until they figure out how to respond (wars take longer since natural disasters usually don't shoot back). It's either that or someone has decided that they should fail, which I doubt. The example of Katrina shows that the response gets better as time goes on. It's usually not good at first, and in Haiti where the government is almost nonexistent you're coming into the situation blind, since even the aid agencies are crippled and overwhelmed by the scale of the damage and the need. For the delivery of food and water you have a real problem setting up distribution channels and security for them.

     

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2010, 04:16:29 AM

     
Friends & colleagues here in Boston are organizing an earthquake relief benefit concert (http://instantencore.com/concert/details.aspx?PId=5055040), in which they will sing my De profundis.

      Good show, Karl. The meaning music derives from its external associations can be profound indeed. _{(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif)}

Carl, I don't think I've seen any link to your De Profundis. Is it a new work? Congratulations for that recognition!

US troops are usually strong on organization, so they should get their act together in due time (hopefully). But involvement on a much deeper level than just organizational will be essential. Relief forces will need to blend in and be aware of the partisular situation they're jumping in, lest they be perceived as occupants . Clinton was quite stung by the criticism.

Crime is hard to eradicate in the current circumstances. People are hungry and desperate. Of course it doesn't help that the capital's main prison was leveled and 4000 criminals took to the streets  :-\.

Those same prisoners burned all their records before they departed from the prison.

The guards need to be found so they can identify those prisoners.  A prison or jail is needed.  The police have no place to detain looters.

Quote from: Barak on January 26, 2010, 01:48:04 PM
Carl, I don't think I've seen any link to your De Profundis. Is it a new work? Congratulations for that recognition!

Thanks, mon cher!

. . . and I wrote the De profundis a few years ago, at a time, I think, when you might have been on a break from GMG.

Quote from: Anne on January 27, 2010, 11:17:35 PM
Those same prisoners burned all their records before they departed from the prison.

The guards need to be found so they can identify those prisoners.  A prison or jail is needed.  The police have no place to detain looters.

Everything needs to be rebuilt. I have no idea what place a prison occupies in the list of priorities ???.

Hospitals should be on top of the country's needs, as well as food and storage facilities. Orphanages will need to be built fast, too. The earthquake has probably added tens of thousands of orphans to the countrie's 380000 orphans (official pre-earthquake numbers). Rehab centers will be needed to help the thousand amputees recover their mobility and find a new way of life. Meanwhile, France has offered to rebuild the presidential palace  ::). I hope they won't stop there...

One of the most disastrous side effects will be the loss of an entire year or two in the education system. No schools, no books or educational material, a lot less teachers.

Just about everything is going to be top priority for quite a time to come.  I hope the money keeps flowing in, and that people don't just give something once or twice and then forget about it or think the problems have gone away.  On a positive (if small) note, the kids (excuse me, "young musicians") of Classical Revolution D.C., who get their kicks playing great music to unappreciative louts in places like bars and restaurants, announced that they were donating all tips from their January evening at La Porta's restaurant this month to Haiti relief efforts.  They played Sunday evening, and they have announced a $350 donation to Hope for Haiti today.  So if we could just multiply that by thousands. . . and keep it coming.

That's really great, Secondwind! That kind of spontaneous unselfish gesture is something that is quite new to the disaster aid scene.

In a sense, I think the whole world is fascinated by the prospect of rebuilding a whole country from scratch. How will it be done? What will they make of it? It's like a lab experiment on a huge scale.

Quote from: Barak on January 28, 2010, 06:43:45 PMIn a sense, I think the whole world is fascinated by the prospect of rebuilding a whole country from scratch. How will it be done? What will they make of it? It's like a lab experiment on a huge scale.

Rebuild?  It is interesting to look at Port au Prince on Google earth.  A large fraction of the city consists (or consisted) of ramshackle structures that a person in a developed country wouldn't consider suitable for livestock, let alone human beings, that and villas on the hills owned by the few rich people.  It was a country blessed with abundant natural resources which became the most poor, most desperate place on earth.  Are the developed counties to step in a rebuild that pathological society?  This is a place where a Roman Catholic Priest who became President (Aristide) encouraged his supporters to seek out political opponents and literally burn them alive.  I feel for the people there and their urgent needs must be met, but I feel uncomfortable with the idea of pouring limitless resources into that place.

Quote from: Barak on January 28, 2010, 06:43:45 PM
In a sense, I think the whole world is fascinated by the prospect of rebuilding a whole country from scratch. How will it be done? What will they make of it? It's like a lab experiment on a huge scale.

It's been done before - post-WW2 Europe comes to mind.

Quote from: Velimir on January 28, 2010, 09:47:32 PM
It's been done before - post-WW2 Europe comes to mind.

In post-WW2 Europe there was something to rebuild.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 28, 2010, 09:52:11 PM
In post-WW2 Europe there was something to rebuild.

You have a point there. Yes, "restoring" Haitian society to its previous condition hardly seems worth it.

Quote from: Scarpia on January 28, 2010, 07:39:08 PM
Rebuild? . . .  A large fraction of the city consists (or consisted) of ramshackle structures that a person in a developed country wouldn't consider suitable for livestock, let alone human beings, that and villas on the hills owned by the few rich people.  It was a country blessed with abundant natural resources which became the most poor, most desperate place on earth.  Are the developed counties to step in a rebuild that pathological society?  . . .  I feel for the people there and their urgent needs must be met, but I feel uncomfortable with the idea of pouring limitless resources into that place.

Scarpia, you are entirely correct that the status quo pre-earthquake was pretty wretched.  However, Haiti did not become such a wreck of a nation without a lot of help.  Without belaboring the history of the country, I'd just say that IMHO certain developed nations, specifically France and the US, have a moral and ethical obligation to pour in some resources.  Of course, everyone's morals and ethics are a bit different, and I'm aware that not everyone will agree with me on this point.

Quote from: secondwind on January 29, 2010, 11:20:57 AM
Scarpia, you are entirely correct that the status quo pre-earthquake was pretty wretched.  However, Haiti did not become such a wreck of a nation without a lot of help.  Without belaboring the history of the country, I'd just say that IMHO certain developed nations, specifically France and the US, have a moral and ethical obligation to pour in some resources.  Of course, everyone's morals and ethics are a bit different, and I'm aware that not everyone will agree with me on this point.

There are two possibilities.  Either we simply make resources available.  These will be largely stolen and used to build even grander villas on the hills or sent to overseas bank accounts.  The other is we go in an rebuild their country for them.  But treating the inhabitants of a country like children doesn't create a functional country.  Maybe we do have an obligation, but we should understand that the money is sent to make us feel better about ourselves, and for no other purpose.

Cynicism is king. Nothing new here. After all, we're only talking about human beings.

QuoteYes, "restoring" Haitian society to its previous condition hardly seems worth it.

The same could be said of Cuba, Cambodia, Sudan  ::).

Many cynics put the blame on the haitian people at large even though 50% were not eve born when Aristide was president, and less than 25% when Papa Doc Duvalier run the country. But dreadful things happened then, so the hell with the whole lot, down to the 7th generation. Sure. Next post, please...

Quote from: Barak on January 29, 2010, 07:12:32 PM
Cynicism is king. Nothing new here. After all, we're only talking about human beings.

The same could be said of Cuba, Cambodia, Sudan  ::).

Many cynics put the blame on the haitian people at large even though 50% were not eve born when Aristide was president, and less than 25% when Papa Doc Duvalier run the country. But dreadful things happened then, so the hell with the whole lot, down to the 7th generation. Sure. Next post, please...

No, I wouldn't say that.  But if they their situation will improve, they will have to do it for themselves.   That is not to say that wealthy countries should come to their immediate aid in the aftermath of the earthquake.  But if they are to "rebuild" their country they must do it, not the US or any other country.

Someone needs to teach them how to build homes that don't collapse in an earthquake.  Let them do the work but teach them how.

I am concerned about their starvation.  It looks like their area could grow food crops year around.  They would need seeds, hoes, and plows.  I wonder if potatoes would grow there?  I saw a video on computer showing the beautiful crop of onions they were growing.  Right now I'm thinking of the people starving in the countryside.  They could be taught how to can food for use in the off-season.  Their excess crops could be sold at market and the cash used to buy their other needed items.

We have the vegetable farmers now.  They would also need pig farmers, and cattle farmers not only for the meat but also for the milk.  Last but not least they would need some chicken farmers and NOT for cock fighting! but for meat and eggs.  I don't know if rabbits live that far south; they are prolific breeders - a necessary idea to hurry up and have meat for sale quickly.  (My father brought home a buck and three does and turned them loose in the barn.  It was not long before we were overrun with rabbits.  Toward the end I remember playing with 36 baby bunnies on the front lawn.  All of the were about the same size.  It was three litters of bunnies.  The 2 men I saw trying to roast a cat would likely eat rabbit.)  Grain crops would need to be grown for the livestock.

There was an article on the internet showing how shipping containers can be used to make their homes.  A retired college teacher and his class procured and built for the Haitians a school made of 4 of the shipping containers.  From start to finish the school was ready for occupancy by the students in a matter of weeks.

That retired teacher said he would be ready to go to Haiti to help.  For a home several containers could be used to create more space if needed.  The men did joke that the metal containers might make a lot of noise together.  I thought they could use rubber inserts to solve that problem.  Maybe someone has better ideas.  There are just ones that I heard about in reference to Haiti.

  I guess the US does not need the containers any more and they can be bought for less than $1,000.  Doors and windows can be added to the containers.  The containers are standardized.
The roofs being could easily be manufactured.  They would need sound proofing when it rains.  We have  about 5 skylights in our house and they definitely are noisy when it rains.  They mentioned making the floor of rubber.  At the time I was concerned about their homes being struck by lightning and the rubber floors sounded like a good idea.

Other than that, as a woman, and probably the one to do the cleaning, I might not be so keen on rubber floors.  In my mind I see reused vehicle tires and I see pitch black infant's knees from crawling around on those floors.

Does anyone know if there are better rubber floors than I have envisioned?  My husband had a friend who was always trying to find a use for discarded vehicle tires.  He was thinking of grinding them up and use them with asphalt for the highways.  I don't know if he ever succeeded.  We lost contact with him over the years.

The subject of who will do what and with what money is a delicate one. At the Montreal Conference (a hastily convened mini summit) haitian authorities firmly expressed the will and desire to be in charge of the reconstruction efforts. The other countries present confirmed it should be so. But in reality, I don't think haitians have the slightest idea where to start.

Obviously foreign expertise and direct involvement will be necessary. It will be hard not to step on anyone's toes there. Today's friends and rescuers could become tomorrow's bullies. OTOH, money, manpower and technicians of all trades will be needed and a strong coordination  will be needed.

Canceling Haiti's foreign debt has been mentioned. Fine. But more money - tons of it - will be needed. The country has no capacity to repay. Realisticallly, I don't think Haiti will have much of a choice.

As Anne mentioned, they will have to be taught a few things. But I don't know about building earthquake proof buildings.  The 1995 Kobe earthquake was 6.9 in magnitude (vs 7.0 in Haiti), and the tremors lasted only 20 seconds. It made a lot of damage (120000 homeless, 200000 buildings destroyed, 10 trillion yens in damage (over 100 billion in USD$), or 2.5% of the country's GDP. Only 3% of the losses were insured. Analysts blame the quake for Japan's 'lost decade'-. Only 6434 lives were taken, probably on account of better home building practices. Japan is a country where quakes are frequent and building regulations are the most stringent on the planet. When a big one hits, especially in an urban area, no amount of fancy technology will stand in Mother Nature's way.

Containers are made of steel. Humidity and salt will cause its corrosion in a matter of just a few years, especially if openings are made - doors, windows, holes for water or electricity connections, etc. Most of Port-au-Prince's buildings, including houses, were made of cement blocks. In theory it should be solid. But cement was of poor quality: too much sand, and too much salt (from beach sand), which make the structures more fragile and corrodes wires and pipes. I suppose the retired college teacher is busy promoting his idea - it looks promising, at least as a useful stopgap.

Quote from: Barak on January 29, 2010, 07:12:32 PM
Cynicism is king. Nothing new here. After all, we're only talking about human beings.

The same could be said of Cuba, Cambodia, Sudan  ::).

Many cynics put the blame on the haitian people at large even though 50% were not eve born when Aristide was president, and less than 25% when Papa Doc Duvalier run the country. But dreadful things happened then, so the hell with the whole lot, down to the 7th generation. Sure. Next post, please...

No, truth is king. And what Scarpia said about Haiti was basically the truth, whether we like it or not.

Also, you seem to be very biased and defensive about all things Haiti. That's understandable if your Haitian, but there are many other terrible goings on in the world that receives little to no attention from the media or the world at large. We can't possibly help them all, so we just pick and choose our causes. Right?

Sorry to say though, but much of the civilized world really isn't interested in the place as much as you'd like them to be, or who was in charge at what time. The place seems to continue to remain a perpetual hellhole regardless, and it's largely NOT our fault.

If it wasn't for the earthquake, hardly anyone would even be talking about Haiti.  I'm sorry if this insults you, but it's the truth.

Also, your comments about our military "not knowing what they are jumping into" "not being organized enough" "needing to blend in more" and the U.S. and other 1st world nations not doing enough to help in general, are a little annoying to say the least. I think our military is indeed aware of what they are jumping into, and are doing a fairly decent job under the circumstances.

I also think the Haitians should be eternally grateful for as much help as their getting from us and other 1st world nations, considering the recession and the host of other current problems. Many other nations are either unable, or unwilling to help Haiti at all. Again, none of what has happened was our fault.

I also don't mean to sound unsympathetic to what has happened down there, but there is nothing I can do about it right now, and I'm afraid that a large portion of the monies going there probably will never reach those it was intended for, which is usually the case with places like that. Even if it did, would it really change anything? Taking a long hard look at Haiti's history, the answer to that question may be a resounding no.

Give it a rest already.

Reading some of the posts in this thread I begin to wonder if people ever travel anymore...

The subject is obviously a foregone conclusion for you, so YOU can give it a rest.

Developed countries the world over give aid to poorer countries. Year after year. There are international and national budgetary targets  (http://www.oecd.org/document/38/0,2340,en_2649_201185_38144422_1_1_1_1,00.html) for that. The notion that countries should not do anything anywhere because it's nobody's fault is ludicrous. The international aid following the 2005 tsunami was double that given to Haiti. No government in the "civilized world"  ::) felt any kind of obligation to help with money, volunteers, medical crews etc.

QuoteThe notion that countries should not do anything anywhere because it's nobody's fault is ludicrous.

Where did I say that countries should never do anything anywhere to help others if it's not their fault? My point was that you seem to be complaining endlessly that they (we) aren't doing enough for the Haitians, and you seem to think you have all the solutions.

There were also statements made that suggested the U.S or the west in general were somehow mostly responsible for the Haitian's consistently less than desirable state, and therefore we automatically have an obligation to always bend over backwards for them (and others) without question. I disagree.

This doesn't mean that I think Haiti should not be helped to some degree, and they are being helped.

QuoteNo government in the "civilized world"  ::) felt any kind of obligation to help with money, volunteers, medical crews etc.

OK, I'm sorry I used the term "civilized world". I should have used a more politically correct term. I don't want you to have to keep using the  ::) icon again, as you have so many times already with anyone who doesn't tell you what you want to hear.

QuoteThe international aid following the 2005 tsunami was double that given to Haiti.

Is it possible that the Tsunami victims got double the international aid than Haiti because the "developed world" (is that better?) wasn't in a huge recession in 2005? Could it be that the Tsunami disaster effected a vastly larger area than Haiti? Could it be that some Asian countries in that part of the world, with their huge economies, had more of a direct interest in what was happening there? Also, this whole mess with Haiti is still far from over. Aren't you being a bit premature and judgmental about everyone's efforts so far?

And what supreme rule or law states that any nation where disaster strikes should always be entitled to the same amount of international relief? If there is such a U.N. resolution, it's certainly based on socialist fantasy, and can never be seriously enforced, as you have already shown. And whether you like it or not, people and countries have their own special interests and biases. I'm not saying that this is always a good thing, but true nonetheless.

If a person genuinely wants to help another out of the goodness of their heart, then I'm all happily for that. But I'm opposed to those who assume for others that it be made mandatory, or attempt to ridden us with guilt and/or insinuate racism if they cannot help according to their specifications and standards.

Quote from: Maciek on January 30, 2010, 10:35:20 AM
Reading some of the posts in this thread I begin to wonder if people ever travel anymore...

Maybe so, but I strongly doubt that Haiti would be anywhere near the top ten list of most peoples travel destinations, if they were going to travel.

http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&cf=all&ncl=dLDHQ5fntFd0QZMhcezchLDkhq27M

It seems that not all of them were even orphans, they were just kidnapped by these nutters.

Same ploy as the Darfur orphans. Well-meaning individuals who either cut corners ( a no-no thing when you're in a foreign country), or they believe they have some kind of divine right to right wrongs. In any case, it doesn't work that way.

So far, every single day since the earthquake, our evening news have opened on Haiti news. Networks have invested heavily in the coverage - small miracles, big problems - and I suppose they feel an obligation to cover everything. Or at least something.

Just as the Kobe earthquake turned into Japan's lost decade, I'm afraid this will be a decade-long quagmire. Great things will be achieved, but there will be discouraging letdowns - lots of them.

Quote from: Lethe on January 31, 2010, 01:10:32 PM
http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&cf=all&ncl=dLDHQ5fntFd0QZMhcezchLDkhq27M

It seems that not all of them were even orphans, they were just kidnapped by these nutters.

These were no "child Traffickers" or "kidnappers", just a group of christian missionaries who were perhaps a little over zealous in attempting to help these children.

It sounds like the orphanage they ran in Haiti had collapsed and they were trying to get over to the Dominican Republic where there was another orphanage being run by another group of Baptists.

Also, I'd be a bit suspicious of the testimony of an 8 year old Haitian via 2nd or 3rd hand from the internet. He may have been telling the truth, maybe not. He could have been coerced to say anything by the Haitian officials. If he had parents, why was he at an orphanage run by Christian missionaries? Did those missionaries know he had parents? Was he a runaway? We don't know the whole details.

Either way, I'm not convinced they were just randomly grabbing any Haitian child they saw to "smuggle" out of the country, which is what the media makes it sound like.

Funny how with all the REAL crimes, child trafficking and other incalculable problems going on over there, and with the almost non-existent police force and functional government, they are wasting their time and resources arresting these well meaning American's, who probably did more for those kids then they ever would have.     

Quote from: Cristofori on January 31, 2010, 08:36:51 AM
Maybe so, but I strongly doubt that Haiti would be anywhere near the top ten list of most peoples travel destinations, if they were going to travel.

Visiting Haiti specifically has absolutely nothing to do with my point. What worries me is that people who have never in their entire lives set foot on "developing country" soil are ready to offer condescending ("expert"?) opinions about those countries' fates.

Quote from: Cristofori on January 31, 2010, 08:13:09 PM
These were no "child Traffickers" or "kidnappers", just a group of Christian missionaries who were perhaps a little over zealous in attempting to help these children.

Being overzealous is no excuse. It doesn't matter what they were going to do with the children - if they wanted to help children they should spend their resources on food and temporary shelter rather than tickets to other countries, and as per Christian values, doing this would be morally absolutely just and not breaking the law to boot.

Quote from: Cristofori on January 31, 2010, 08:13:09 PM
If he had parents, why was he at an orphanage run by Christian missionaries?

His parents could be mangled in a hospital or all number of things.

Quote from: Cristofori on January 31, 2010, 08:13:09 PM
Did those missionaries know he had parents?

Exactly my point. They were completely unqualified to make the decision that they did, and once made it is irreversible. Who knows where the parents would be rehoused? They could be impossible to find even if the child somehow had the resources to begin a search.

Quote from: Cristofori on January 31, 2010, 08:13:09 PM
Funny how with all the REAL crimes, child trafficking and other incalculable problems going on over there, and with the almost nonexistent police force and functional government, they are wasting their time and resources arresting these well meaning American's, who probably did more for those kids then they ever would have.   

So we should trust them because they are American Christians, regardless of their lawbreaking and zero accountability due to not being qualified to do what they did and nobody being aware of what they were doing? This is what laws are for - to protect people from the harm caused by this kind of activity, regardless of good intentions.

Them expecting everything to be fine in uprooting any child over the age of a baby and expecting it to just get used to the new situation you have ditched it in demonstrates an amazing lack of sensitivity - countless children in this situation go off the rails even within first world countries child protection services, let alone in this hamfisted plan. Losing a parent is traumatic, but losing the entire community you have grown up in - your grounding and sense of security? It takes amazing leaps of faith to feel that these factors can just be "ironed out".

By now enough aid is getting through to keep people going, and will inevitably improve all the time, so these children were not being saved from death. If they were being saved from illness, why didn't the organisation pay for medical aid and not tickets to the Dominican Republic? I don't see anything justifiable on a moral ground about their approach.

You may have good reason to look at the facts available so far and feel that these people were harmless, but I look at the same facts and see something different - signs of inconsideration and saviour complex-driven bravado. Who is right? It's probably somewhere in the middle. Also, the police would probably rather be helping out other Haitians than having to arrest these people ;) The notion that this is a "lesser crime" which could be ignored in the face of others is not acceptable - even if their arrest is being used as a deterrent, that is an important precedent to set so that this doesn't continue to happen with who knows how many diverse consequences (some positive, some disastrous) for the children involved.

Quote from: Maciek on January 31, 2010, 10:42:24 PM
Visiting Haiti specifically has absolutely nothing to do with my point. What worries me is that people who have never in their entire lives set foot on "developing country" soil are ready to offer condescending ("expert"?) opinions about those countries' fates.

Unless your with the National Geographic, a missionary, or a thrill seeking daredevil, it may be best to let books and the internet do the traveling for you, because it appears that actually setting foot in some "developing countries" can be downright foolhardy and dangerous:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1134.html (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1134.html)

And this was BEFORE the earthquake!

Enormous efforts and sacrifices, and untold billions of dollars have been poured into places like Haiti around the world by the west (taxpayers like me who had no say), yet they always seem to remain in a perpetual state of "development", and offer little or nothing in return, except more immigrants, refugees and "asylum seekers". I shudder to think of what some of these places would be like if they were left totally on their own?

It shouldn't be a big mystery as to why some people are a bit cynical and unimpressed with the "progress" being made.

You underestimate the usefulness of that excellent US Department of State web site.  Right on top there's a convenient drop down menu of countries you can inquire about. You might have fun checking Sudan , Sri Lanka, Honduras and a lot of dangerous places  where only the foolhardy would consider setting foot.

Better than that: if you can't be bothered checking them individually, there's a convenient link to a list of all 'Travel Alert' and 'Worldwide caution' places not recommended for travel (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_1161.html) : . It's on the same page as the Haiti link you list, and on each of those countries' descriptive page. True, it seems that most of these places are not in the civilized world as you understand it. You know, Africa, South and Central Asia... There are 31 countries on that list (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_1764.html). It's a dangerous world out there.

................................................................................................

The saviour syndrome is the unfortunate result of an exalted sense of mission (litterally: these people describe themselves as misisonaries). In Chad, 2 years ago a group of 16 french and spanish citizens from an organization called L'Arche de Zoé attempted to smuggle 103 children out of the country (Note: in French, Noah's Ark is called L'Arche de Noé). The group was arrested at the border, detained, judged and sentenced to 8 years of hard labour. A joint inquest by the UN, International Red Cross and Unicef found that 85% of the children were not orphans (75% even had two parents). The whole thing was quite bizarre. Officially the association was founded to help children and provide humanitarian aid in 2004, following the tsunami disaster. One of its founders is also assistant manager to a firm called Paris Biotech Santé, with links to universities and research centers in the field of applied medical research. Accusations of organ trafficking and pedophile networks were made by tchadian President Idriss Déby. Although these sounded farfetched at first, many clues have been uncovered linking the group to these medical facilities, including evidence of direct financing by Paris Biotech. To this day, organ trafficking rumours still persist about this affair. Direct involvement by President Sarkozy was prominent in the transfer to french prisons and subsequent freedom of those involved. President Sarkozy's younger brother François is one of Paris Biotech's bord of directors...

Obviously, actions such as these could be the brainchild of well-meaning individuals. They could also cover darker, sinister  motives. What's astonishing with the Haiti incident is that the Tchad one is very recent (December 2007), its political and judiciary consequences are still not settled, and it was heavily publicized the world over. How on earth could the american group have entertained the notion of doing the very same thing without clearing their action with local (haitian) authorities ? Or asking american authorities (http://www.travel.state.gov/family/adoption/adoption_485.html) about their project: the Department of State web site even has an entry they should have looked at:

Quote# Responding to inquiries about the intercountry adoption process;
# Producing and maintaining country specific adoption information;
# Issuing Adoption Alerts in crisis situations; and
# Working with U.S. Embassies on diplomatic efforts with host governments about adoption laws and procedures.

How could these churches' directors (or panel of elders or whatnot) not have raised the prospect of "complications" for that action? The whole thing probably cost them tens of thousands of dollars, and counting (of course the church will foot the legal bills).  Following the Tchad incident, such actions have been described as  'compassionate neocolonialism'. No amount of compassion can be an excuse for such behaviour. Sheer stupidity is also not an excuse.

Quote from: Barak on February 01, 2010, 05:02:16 PM
The saviour syndrome is the unfortunate result of an exalted sense of mission (litterally: these people describe themselves as misisonaries). In Chad, 2 years ago a group of 16 french and spanish citizens from an organization called L'Arche de Zoé attempted to smuggle 103 children out of the country (Note: in French, Noah's Ark is called L'Arche de Noé). The group was arrested at the border, detained, judged and sentenced to 8 years of hard labour. A joint inquest by the UN, International Red Cross and Unicef found that 85% of the children were not orphans (75% even had two parents).

According to an interviewed UNICEF representative on the TV news today, the same thing happened in Somalia - children were stolen away to Italy, presumably given families, and then the Somali families tracked their kids down and went through legal proceedings to try to get their children back. Imagine how screwed up that is for kids involved. It's one thing to be poor, it's another to be poor, relocated (in some cases through deception), wealthy with a "new improved" family, then poor again - and all because of some lawless crusaders thundering around doing their own thing.

QuoteBeing overzealous is no excuse. It doesn't matter what they were going to do with the children - if they wanted to help children they should spend their resources on food and temporary shelter rather than tickets to other countries, and as per Christian values, doing this would be morally absolutely just and not breaking the law to boot.

Hello Lethe,

Foreign aid workers should respect and obey another laws in most circumstances, except for oppressive freedom of speech/religion laws (looking at it from the missionaries point of view that is). They would be under no moral obligation to obey those. They believe in obeying Jesus commandments first and not man's. They are supposed to "preach the gospel" so to speak. Which of course often lands them in hot water in many places.

However, stealing children usually isn't part of the plan! Mind you, I have no problem with these people over there helping them, but trying to ship them over to the U.S. permanently (if that's the case) in an attempt to run from their problems isn't the answer.

However, you or I may have a disregard for some laws in certain circumstances if we sincerely believed we were doing the right thing, and I don't blame them. With almost 400,000 Haitian Orphans BEFORE the quake (a ridiculous high number for such a small land), perhaps they felt (knew) that the government would fail miserably in doing what's best for these children.

It's easy to talk about rules and regulations when it's involving people we don't know or care about.

QuoteHis parents could be mangled in a hospital or all number of things.

Possibly, with a chance they were whisked over to a U.S. hospital as well, where many of it's own citizens can't even afford health care.

Of course the Haitian officials don't seem to have any objections about that!

QuoteThey were completely unqualified to make the decision that they did, and once made it is irreversible

Probably so, but I'm not the one living and working over there or dealing with the problems. One things for certain though, what's left of the government there may be the least qualified in making decisions of all.

QuoteWho knows where the parents would be rehoused? They could be impossible to find even if the child somehow had the resources to begin a search.

If things are that bad, they would have had a hard time finding them regardless. Were they supposed to sit waiting around in a cesspool in the meantime? Having a brief stay at another baptist orphanage in the Dominican Republic, a place considerably better off then Haiti would not have been unreasonable.

However, if they planned on taking them from there to the U.S., to be put up for adoption, then I have a problem with it. Also, these comments from the 8 year old girl might lead me to believe her parent couldn't take care of her and didn't really want to be found, as is frequently the case:

One eight-year-old girl told aid workers that she thought her mother had arranged a short holiday for her and sobbed: 'I am not an orphan. I still have my parents.'


Why would you drop off your child at a foreign baptist missionary orphange of all places, tell your kid she's going to summer camp, and then disappear? Didn't any of the missionaries meet or speak with these parents? How long was this little girl there? Also, then there are these comments from the pastor of their church:

Drew Ham, a pastor at the Central Valley Baptist Church in Meridian, Idaho, where most of the group were parishioners, said last night: 'From all accounts this is a paperwork issue. And the next thing our folks know, they're being arrested.'


He insisted the children had been verified as orphans and had come from an established orphanage in Port-au-Prince, although he couldn't provide the name.

Doesn't anybody speak French or English here? Why didn't the kids scream and holler to anybody that they were not orphans until now? If it was me, I would have been fighting tooth and nail to get out of there.

If it's true that they definitely were kidnapped against their will in some harebrained scheme, then let the chips fall as they may, but there seems to be some serious confusion here to say the least.

QuoteSo we should trust them because they are American Christians, regardless of their lawbreaking and zero accountability due to not being qualified to do what they did and nobody being aware of what they were doing?

No, we shouldn't,  but I'd trust even less the words of a group of earthquake shocked 6-10 year old Haitians, who may only think that their parents are still around somewhere, or were coming back to get them.

I have yet to see anything really concrete from news sources that they were indeed not orphans. If it turns out that some of them were not orphans after all, I'd still like to know how they ended up with the missionaries. We shall wait for the updates.

Also, according to the missionaries, there were supposedly some Haitians "officials" and people from the Dominican Republic who OK'd the children going across the border. It now looks like these officials were not the right ones in authority, so some people may have been aware of what was going on.

QuoteThis is what laws are for - to protect people from the harm caused by this kind of activity, regardless of good intentions.

There doesn't appear to be much law going around Haiti at the moment.

QuoteThem expecting everything to be fine in uprooting any child over the age of a baby and expecting it to just get used to the new situation you have ditched it in demonstrates an amazing lack of sensitivity - countless children in this situation go off the rails even within first world countries child protection services, let alone in this hamfisted plan.

Not to argue the rudiments of adoption, but PLENTY of people grow up adopted with few problems and lead normal, successful lives. Asian children in particular do very well, but I'd agree with you that for these Haitian children, things probably wouldn't work out so well, for anybody involved.

Quotelosing the entire community you have grown up in - your grounding and sense of security? It takes amazing leaps of faith to feel that these factors can just be "ironed out".

Many third world immigrants (and their children) are just up and leaving their communities and sense of security and in some cases, risking their lives and flocking to the west in droves, and once they are there they never want to go back, and I don't blame them.

Amazing leaps of faith can do wonders. 

QuoteBy now enough aid is getting through to keep people going, and will inevitably improve all the time, so these children were not being saved from death. If they were being saved from illness, why didn't the organization pay for medical aid and not tickets to the Dominican Republic? I don't see anything justifiable on a moral ground about their approach.

Yes, I'm not sure what it was they were trying to do, but I'm quite sure it wasn't for any child selling, sex/slave trade or any heinous thing like that, which is what the initial reports over the web made it sound like.

QuoteYou may have good reason to look at the facts available so far and feel that these people were harmless, but I look at the same facts and see something different - signs of inconsideration and saviour complex-driven bravado.

No, just that whenever the world see's the words "Baptist" or "Evangelical Christian" tied in with some mishap somewhere, they automatically assume the worst (Jim Jones - David Koresh), and waste no time getting out the hammer and nails to crucify them as fast as possible with out having all the facts.

QuoteAlso, the police would probably rather be helping out other Haitians than having to arrest these people ;)

Hmm... I'd really like to believe that. There were no police to be found after the earthquake for days, then they suddenly show up and shot two men execution style over their bag of rice, claiming that they were stealing food, which turned out to be a fallacy. One of the men survived, and stated they were given then food by relief workers.

http://www.prevalhaiti.com/messages.php/18688 (http://www.prevalhaiti.com/messages.php/18688)

With police like this, who needs criminals?

QuoteThe notion that this is a "lesser crime" which could be ignored in the face of others is not acceptable - even if their arrest is being used as a deterrent, that is an important precedent to set so that this doesn't continue to happen

Yes, not acceptable under normal circumstances (whatever is normal for them) However, the current situation is abnormal, turned upside down if you will. Just like in war time, some priorities are in order. The Haitian government has bigger fish to fry. I suspect that they will realize this, (with pressure by some U.S. officials) and the American Baptists will get off somewhat lightly (by their standards) and eventually be sent back to the states.

And sadly, I don't think this will deter the real child traffickers one bit. They may even prosper more than ever now. There are now a lot of very desperate Haitian officials, police and military personal who could easily be bribed to look the other way. :(

Nice conversion though...

Quote from: Barak on January 28, 2010, 06:43:45 PM
That's really great, Secondwind! That kind of spontaneous unselfish gesture is something that is quite new to the disaster aid scene.

In a sense, I think the whole world is fascinated by the prospect of rebuilding a whole country from scratch. How will it be done? What will they make of it? It's like a lab experiment on a huge scale.

You make it sound like a utopian project; I see a giant and nasty mess.

The day after the earthquake, I mentioned to my wife that Obama and Congress needed to start giving serious thought as to what the U.S. was going to do about Haiti after the emergency is over.  I don't have any answers, but your posting raises a first question:

Is the U.S. really going to do for Haiti what it wasn't willing to do for New Orleans?

Quote from: Bulldog on February 01, 2010, 06:49:07 PM
You make it sound like a utopian project; I see a giant and nasty mess.

The day after the earthquake, I mentioned to my wife that Obama and Congress needed to start giving serious thought as to what the U.S. was going to do about Haiti after the emergency is over.  I don't have any answers, but your posting raises a first question:

Is the U.S. really going to do for Haiti what it wasn't willing to do for New Orleans?

Oh yes, our favorite past time. Nation rebuilding!
Obama could just tack that on to the 3.5 trillion deficit. ::)

No thanks, I have absolutely no desire to see Haiti become the 51st state of the union.

We have enough problems already.

QuoteIs the U.S. really going to do for Haiti what it wasn't willing to do for New Orleans?

Very good question. In the press today, an official from one of the countless non-government organizations at work there was asked by the reporter "who is running Haiti right now". The answer: the US government, the NGOs, and the US military. He immediately corrected himself by heading the list with 'the haitian government'. Too late. The truth had been spoken. The haitian governament is invisible and is to all extants and purposes MIA.

The US Government has huge stakes there. First, to show that it cares (it's close to the Land, and there are 1.5 million haitians on the continent). Then that it can. It sure does. But it has to demonstrate that effectiveness. Any little glitch will be pointed at. And finally, that it has the will and capacity to bring the whole process to a successful conclusion. That is the most difficult. Huge efforts will be required. Failures will be pooh-pooed. Achievements will be credited to the local government. The whole reconstruction process will take about a decade to be brought to term. Obama's Administration will not see the end of it. Another President will either take the blame or the credit for the results.

Quote from: Barak on February 01, 2010, 07:10:22 PM
The US Government has huge stakes there. First, to show that it cares (it's close to the Land, and there are 1.5 million haitians on the continent). Then that it can. It sure does. But it has to demonstrate that effectiveness. Any little glitch will be pointed at. And finally, that it has the will and capacity to bring the whole process to a successful conclusion. That is the most difficult. Huge efforts will be required. Failures will be pooh-pooed. Achievements will be credited to the local government. The whole reconstruction process will take about a decade to be brought to term. Obama's Administration will not see the end of it. Another President will either take the blame or the credit for the results.

This is all assuming that a hole host of possible scenarios doesn't happen; war with Iran, war with China/Taiwan, escalating war in Afghanistan, a catastrophic terrorist attack, a prolonged big recession, etc.

Any one or more of these could put a damper on the Haitian's hopes in a quick hurry.

I do hope you are right on one of your predictions though, that the Obama administration will not see the end of it, and will preferably be done with it in 2012.

Quote from: Barak on February 01, 2010, 07:10:22 PM
Very good question. In the press today, an official from one of the countless non-government organizations at work there was asked by the reporter "who is running Haiti right now". The answer: the US government, the NGOs, and the US military. He immediately corrected himself by heading the list with 'the haitian government'. Too late. The truth had been spoken. The haitian governament is invisible and is to all extants and purposes MIA.

The US Government has huge stakes there. First, to show that it cares (it's close to the Land, and there are 1.5 million haitians on the continent). Then that it can. It sure does. But it has to demonstrate that effectiveness. Any little glitch will be pointed at. And finally, that it has the will and capacity to bring the whole process to a successful conclusion. That is the most difficult. Huge efforts will be required. Failures will be pooh-pooed. Achievements will be credited to the local government. The whole reconstruction process will take about a decade to be brought to term. Obama's Administration will not see the end of it. Another President will either take the blame or the credit for the results.

Sorry, but I don't see a 10 year huge effort on the part of the U.S. - short attention span if nothing else.

No offense meant, ladies and gentlemen, but has anyone of you considered going to Haiti and offering your help in the most direct way? I ask this because some of you seem to know exactly what should be done, how and by whom. Maybe your expertise and ideas are just the missing link for clearing up the Haitian mess...

Quote from: Barak on February 01, 2010, 07:10:22 PM
Very good question. In the press today, an official from one of the countless non-government organizations at work there was asked by the reporter "who is running Haiti right now". The answer: the US government, the NGOs, and the US military. He immediately corrected himself by heading the list with 'the haitian government'. Too late. The truth had been spoken. The haitian governament is invisible and is to all extants and purposes MIA.

The US Government has huge stakes there. First, to show that it cares (it's close to the Land, and there are 1.5 million haitians on the continent). Then that it can. It sure does. But it has to demonstrate that effectiveness. Any little glitch will be pointed at. And finally, that it has the will and capacity to bring the whole process to a successful conclusion. That is the most difficult. Huge efforts will be required. Failures will be pooh-pooed. Achievements will be credited to the local government. The whole reconstruction process will take about a decade to be brought to term. Obama's Administration will not see the end of it. Another President will either take the blame or the credit for the results.

I don't concur.  The US should help them  bury the dead and provide emergency relief to the seriously injured.  Perhaps they should reconstruct the port and airport.  Rebuilding the country is their job. 

Cristofori - I didn't ignore your post, but it'd make me go cross-eyed writing a reply of the required length :D I agree with a fair bit of what you say, though, especially about the state of the country. You also make good points about the amount of the population who if given a choice would like to emmigrate to somewhere like the US, but there are also plenty who wouldn't (kind of like me living in Europe, I would be financially better off working the same job in the US, but like it here), and at such a young age children are not sufficiently mentally developed to make a balanced choice - this is before the many other factors such as family ties.

Quote from: Scarpia on February 02, 2010, 05:03:38 AM
Rebuilding the country is their job. 

This is where degrees of morality most strongly work their way into the subject I suppose, because to say such a thing means an acceptance that this will happen again and again, as there is no way that Haitians can afford to build anything resembling earthquake-resistant buildings...

Quote from: Lethe on February 02, 2010, 05:45:42 AMThis is where degrees of morality most strongly work their way into the subject I suppose, because to say such a thing means an acceptance that this will happen again and again, as there is no way that Haitians can afford to build anything resembling earthquake-resistant buildings...

Earthquakes happen every 250 years or so, it is not their main problem.  In 1978, Haiti and China had roughly the same standard of living.  Would China be better off now if the US had gone over there in 1978 and build nice little houses for the Chinese to live in?  What happened was Mao died.  There is no question of the need for disaster relief.  If Haiti is to become anything other than the hell-hole it was before the earth quake Haitians will have to do it.

Quote from: Florestan on February 02, 2010, 01:45:28 AM
No offense meant, ladies and gentlemen, but has anyone of you considered going to Haiti and offering your help in the most direct way? I ask this because some of you seem to know exactly what should be done, how and by whom. Maybe your expertise and ideas are just the missing link for clearing up the Haitian mess...

I know just about enough about disaster relief to know I wouldn't have any idea where to start, so I limit my decisions to selecting which group gets this week's donation--Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Oxfam, Habitat for Humanity. . . .There are people who have training and experience in dealing with these terrible situations, and I've met a few.  I'm just not one of them.

There are two huge problems in Haiti. First, the earthquake and its destructive consequences. Second, the chronic state of disarray, corruption and technical bankruptcy of the haitian governments. The latter certainly shouldn't be minimized, let alone dismissed. But it shouldn't serve as a 'punishment' by which we rub those haitian noses into the mud.

Right now the government has to all extents and purposes abdicated all leadership in the current crisis. The US Ambassador is the de facto head honcho in Port-au-Prince (from today's newspaper reports - I'm not making that up). What will happen in the future is anybody's guess. But in the present, there are huge very immediate problems that need to be addressed.

I don't have a solution. If the problem was simple, there wouldn't be a problem. I think we should support what is done now by those involved that are working around the clock in difficult conditions (military, relief groups, volunteers) and what will be proposed in March by the panel of countries to find a long term solution.

(http://lakecityquietpills.com/photo/multihost/images/52237443963224809875.png)

"Good night", Oyasumi. Tthis being your first contribution to this thread, I expect you have something truly important to say. Somehow, I fail to get the meaning of your post. Maybe you can explain how te haitian people can count on people like you  ;). God bless you !

Oyasumi, that was funny and a little levity is welcome on this thread. :)

That was too hilarious... I'm saving that one forever.

The haitian government has all but stopped functioning. Some kind of organized chaos is settling as the new haitian way of life.
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I just talked to one of my friends, whose religious order has missions in Haiti. One of their buildings has collapsed, killing 7 people (workers and residents). It was a big building, and it's not expected that the corpses will be removed for some weeks. He's going there in a few weeks.
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1400 canadian Correctional Service people will be sent to Haiti in the coming weeks (prison wardens for the most part). That's 10% of the whole force. Apparently they are among the most sought after professionals in Port-au-Prince right now. I have no doubt about that. Only 100 of the 4000 escaped convicts have been recaptured. Hopefully, our prisoners will behave while their wardens are away  :o
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Bill Cinton has arrived in P-au-P today. Haitians are disgusted with their current rulers. Portraits of former prez JB Aristide are hoisted over crowds that gather in the capital. In a leadership vacuum it's common to see calls for a return of ousted dictators.
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I'm still trying to 'get' that joke... :-\

Quote from: Barak on February 05, 2010, 04:39:43 PM
I'm still trying to 'get' that joke... :-\

All you have to get is that it was not made at the expense of Haitians, nor was it targeted at anybody, nor does it demean or make light of this tragedy.

David, I have no doubt about that. Otherwise it wouldn't have been commented favourably by Greg and you. But the comic element still escapes me. I'm a lost cause on some things. Technology and humour among them  ::) It may be a generation thing.

Maybe you've never seen one of those annoying commercials "Text 'JOKES' to 5555849 (or whatever number)" and they charge you a dollar for a joke that you could find on the internet for free. That might be the reason.

Indeed, I've never seen that. But now I understand. THX AGIN, GREG ! :D