Whatever you think about the British Honours system, surely you'll agree that Dame Emma Kirkby (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6757831.stm) has earned hers?
Definitely agree, I think it's fabulous!!!
Well since she is my top soprano of all times since her early beginnings, I am certainly more than convinced, that she deserved this honour much earlier. But better later as never right?
I will play some nice things of her today! :)
Yes, congratulations to her! I think Anthony Rooley should also be in line for similar honors.
Her name always reminds me of a dear friend, now passed away, who used to refer to her as "Emma Chirp-by" (I know that sounds awful, but he really meant it as a compliment in reference to what he thought was a bird-like quality in her voice!)
Harry, do you have this DVD?
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/LydianAirs/monteverdibanquet.jpg)
Quote from: Joan on June 16, 2007, 09:57:44 PM
Yes, congratulations to her! I think Anthony Rooley should also be in line for similar honors.
Her name always reminds me of a dear friend, now passed away, who used to refer to her as "Emma Chirp-by" (I know that sounds awful, but he really meant it as a compliment in reference to what he thought was a bird-like quality in her voice!)
Harry, do you have this DVD?
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa166/LydianAirs/monteverdibanquet.jpg)
Yes Joan, and much I like it, played it at least a hundred times! :)
A much-deserved honor for one of the finest sopranos ever to sing early music.
I get a lump in my throat every time I hear her sing Mozart's Laudate Dominum with Hogwood conducting. Truly magnificent. An outstanding voice.
What is the purpose of honours? To recognise the talents of famous people? I ask this as a genune quuestion as well as a flippant one.
Quote from: Guido on June 22, 2007, 05:59:39 PM
What is the purpose of honours? To recognise the talents of famous people? I ask this as a genune quuestion as well as a flippant one.
In this case, it's a recognition, not of mere talent or ability, but of significant accomplishment, especially that which benefits the United Kingdom.
A friend sent me today this excellent link:
Emma Kirkby: The Unsung Heroine
The South Bank Show
ITV Productions
22.07.2007.
Presented by: Melvyn Bragg
Produced and directed by: Mathew Tucker
A documentary about my favorite singer, Dame Emma Kirkby, the artist who almost single-handedly changed the way we listen to voices in early music. Her pure soprano features on almost 200 studio recordings and she is well known to almost every admirer of medieval, renaissance and baroque music for her beautiful voice and amazing artistry. The show features works of Henry Purcell, Johann Sebastian Bach, George Frideric Handel, Jean-Baptiste Boësset, Claudio Monteverdi, Hildegard Von Bingen and John Dowland.
http://www.youtube.com/v/mzm4Oad6pGo
http://www.youtube.com/v/tGOwJ4RICDI
Another four parts exist on You Tube.
:)
Quote from: Harry on June 16, 2007, 02:55:45 AM
Well since she is my top soprano of all times since her early beginnings, I am certainly more than convinced, that she deserved this honour much earlier. But better later as never right?
I will play some nice things of her today! :)
Totally agree. I have been wondering all these years why Emma Kirkby has not received this honor earlier. She is still the gold standard for me when it comes to baroque soprano. Her Handel's Italian Cantatas conducted by Hogwood is superior to the recording by Kozena and Minkowski. So much for those who think newer is always better ...
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b3/9a/d0fb124128a0af254d209010.L._AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510SS27QY6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Mark on June 16, 2007, 01:12:28 AM
Whatever you think about the British Honours system, surely you'll agree that Dame Emma Kirkby (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6757831.stm) has earned hers?
Not really. I have quite a few of her recordings but I bought them more out of necessity rather than choice (ie there were few other options for the music). These days her name on the credits is enough on its own to make me reject a CD. Her shrill school-girl tone is enough to strip any music of whatever gravity is posesses.
And I'd chose Kozena over Kirkby any day.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 22, 2009, 02:06:15 AM
Not really. I have quite a few of her recordings but I bought them more out of necessity rather than choice (ie there were few other options for the music). These days her name on the credits is enough on its own to make me reject a CD. Her shrill school-girl tone is enough to strip any music of whatever gravity is posesses.
And I'd chose Kozena over Kirkby any day.
You are just jealous my friend, that you are so unimportant that you have to make yourself emperor, in order to get attention. ;D
Quote from: Harry on September 22, 2009, 02:10:15 AM
You are just jealous my friend, that you are so unimportant that you have to make yourself emperor, in order to get attention. ;D
You're behind the times Harry, I have long passed the Emperor stage, I've been Zeus for over a year! ;D
Yesterday I listened to some of the relatively early recordings of Eanglish Madrigals done by the "consort of music" including Emma Kirkby, and what struck me, quite independetly of this thread, is how far madrigal performance have advanced since those times. And regrettably, Dame Emma sounds at times quite shrill on those 2 discs.
I firmly stand behind my earlier post. Hogwood and Kirkby beat Minkowski and Kozena hands down in Handel Italian Cantatas. Just do a comparative listening for yourself.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 22, 2009, 02:06:15 AM
Not really. I have quite a few of her recordings but I bought them more out of necessity rather than choice (ie there were few other options for the music). These days her name on the credits is enough on its own to make me reject a CD. Her shrill school-girl tone is enough to strip any music of whatever gravity is posesses.
And I'd chose Kozena over Kirkby any day.
I don't disagree with you. It depends on to what extent one is willing to accept a "manufactured" tone. The counter argument for that is whatever singing one does is a choice of range and overtones, anyway.
When unusual timbres don't interfere with musicality as with countertenors singing repertoire that was never intended for a falsetto without a chest range, then is it still a matter of taste, not mine--similar to Kirkby downplaying or almost eliminating the lower overtones.
ZB
Quote from: Coopmv on September 22, 2009, 05:30:59 PM
I firmly stand behind my earlier post. Hogwood and Kirkby beat Minkowski and Kozena hands down in Handel Italian Cantatas. Just do a comparative listening for yourself.
And me too, Kirkby is for me a icon, a voice of great beauty, shrillness is not one of its attributes, let alone manufactured.
Emma Kirkby is simply singing what is noted down by the composers.
Quote from: Harry on September 22, 2009, 11:02:04 PM
And me too, Kirkby is for me a icon, a voice of great beauty, shrillness is not one of its attributes, let alone manufactured.
Hi Harry. To rephrase what I wrote above, any singing tone is manufactured in the sense a choice being made for a couple of parameters. How much vibrato, head or chest register to include? My singing teacher said it was like putting cream in coffee. Do you want it near black or creamy? This is most apparent in the lower middle of a soprano where she may sing
can belto appropriate for "Toujours la mort" in the Card Scene from
Carmen or light, in any coloratura where one needs only to scoop down and just touch the lower notes.
Crossover singers for musicals, etc., blank out the full range of overtones. And so on. The latter is what I believe Kirkby was doing most of the time, emphasizing a nearly vibrato-less top while not including most of the lower overtones. This is the typical timbre one expects from choirboys, nice for a lot of Renaissance and Baroque music, but I'm not sure this was the kind of sound Handel got from his own sopranos.
Quote from: Harry on September 22, 2009, 11:02:04 PM
Emma Kirkby is simply singing what is noted down by the composers.[/i]
It's really not as simple as that, not at all...
ZB
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 14, 2009, 08:19:40 PMA friend sent me today this excellent link:
Emma Kirkby: The Unsung Heroine
The South Bank Show
ITV Productions
22.07.2007.
Presented by: Melvyn Bragg
Produced and directed by: Mathew Tucker
Many thanks. After listening to "Full fathom five" in Pt1, I think it's once again time to listen to the "Music and sweet poetry" CD with her/Jakob Lindberg.
The music coupled with her voice, often Baroque and earlier music in general, let me really come down, calm down and relax.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on September 23, 2009, 01:16:26 AM
Hi Harry. To rephrase what I wrote above, any singing tone is manufactured in the sense a choice being made for a couple of parameters. How much vibrato, head or chest register to include? My singing teacher said it was like putting cream in coffee. Do you want it near black or creamy? This is most apparent in the lower middle of a soprano where she may sing can belto appropriate for "Toujours la mort" in the Card Scene from Carmen or light, in any coloratura where one needs only to scoop down and just touch the lower notes.
Crossover singers for musicals, etc., blank out the full range of overtones. And so on. The latter is what I believe Kirkby was doing most of the time, emphasizing a nearly vibrato-less top while not including most of the lower overtones. This is the typical timbre one expects from choirboys, nice for a lot of Renaissance and Baroque music, but I'm not sure this was the kind of sound Handel got from his own sopranos.
It's really not as simple as that, not at all...
ZB
A really nice informed post. Seeing as you know what you are talking about I'll ask a couple of questions if I may. How much information is their for performance practice for singing renaissance and baroque repertoire from primary sources? Does Emma Kirkby seem to follow this performance practice and, importantly, do you have a feel for how her performance practice has changed over her career? Performance practice for early plucked strings has changed massively over a similar period (70's to now) so it would be nice to know if the same has happened for the singers.
Quote from: Il Furioso on September 23, 2009, 04:56:22 AM
A really nice informed post. Seeing as you know what you are talking about I'll ask a couple of questions if I may. How much information is their for performance practice for singing renaissance and baroque repertoire from primary sources? Does Emma Kirkby seem to follow this performance practice and, importantly, do you have a feel for how her performance practice has changed over her career? Performance practice for early plucked strings has changed massively over a similar period (70's to now) so it would be nice to know if the same has happened for the singers.
First of all, I am not an expert on Emma Kirkby's career or HIP in general. I can usually analyze a singing voice because that is partially what I do for a living. This is not perhaps difficult for any musician to do if one puts one's mind to it. The theory of the registers in the voice goes back at least to the 1600's. Empirically, it was found to be useful for the demands of dramatic singing in the development of opera.
Cutting out chest resonance was not, as far as I know, practiced at any time, except around the mid 20th century with the proliferation of counter-tenors, many if not most, are/were baritones who develop the falsetto at the expense of the chest resonance. I had a baritone who could sing "Ave Maria" in the soprano key but decided he wanted the entirety of his voice instead, so gave it up.
But singing Medieval and Renaissance sounded "authentic" with a choirboy sort of timbre so a person like Kirkby extended that use to Baroque music as well. It's an acquired taste, I guess, that I don't have.
zamyra-bird
I am in the camp that thinks Kirkby has huge historical importance in early HIP movement, a true inspiration to future singers, but the new younger generation of baroque female singers have raised the bar even higher in overall singing technique. (like Kozena)
Kirkby at her very best can heard in her fabulous Mozart Exsultate Jubilate, along with Hogwood AAM providing perfect orchestral background, this is easily my reference rendition. Kirkby has inspired ornamented runs (1:56-2:15, 3:19-3:34, 4:10-4:22) that show a confident creative artist at the top of her game, I have listened to almost every available version and she tops them all with an inventive spontaneous delivery in perfect harmony with Hogwood, the pristine silvery highs are icing on the cake.........Moazart would approve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31bOFmBUxY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31bOFmBUxY)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NHPXJ996L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 23, 2009, 07:37:47 AM
I am in the camp that thinks Kirkby has huge historical importance in early HIP movement, a true inspiration to future singers, but the new younger generation of baroque female singers have raised the bar even higher in overall singing technique. (like Kozena)
Kirkby at her very best can heard in her fabulous Mozart Exsultate Jubilate, along with Hogwood AAM providing perfect orchestral background, this is easily my reference rendition. Kirkby has inspired ornamented runs (1:56-2:15, 3:19-3:34, 4:10-4:22) that show a confident creative artist at the top of her game, I have listened to almost every available version and she tops them all with an inventive spontaneous delivery in perfect harmony with Hogwood, the pristine silvery highs are icing on the cake.........Moazart would approve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31bOFmBUxY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x31bOFmBUxY)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NHPXJ996L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Leaving out Emma Kirkby for the moment, I actually prefer the Canadian soprano Karina Gauvin over Kozena. Gauvin is certainly from the same generation as Kozena.
Hmm... I just don't understand Kirby's popularity. I remember when I first heard her voice on the Hogwood recording of Messiah several years ago; I thought to myself, "What is that???" There must be something I'm not getting here, because her voice sounds diminutive and shrill to my ears. Personally, I try to avoid recordings with her name on it! :o
Maybe Moazart, an alleged Baroque composer might approve, but Mozart the classic composer, preferred full voiced WOMEN, like Kiri (cited here) and not cute little choirboys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2rSyPckTU&feature=related
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on September 23, 2009, 05:09:51 PM
Hmm... I just don't understand Kirby's popularity. I remember when I first heard her voice on the Hogwood recording of Messiah several years ago; I thought to myself, "What is that???" There must be something I'm not getting here, because her voice sounds diminutive and shrill to my ears. Personally, I try to avoid recordings with her name on it! :o
Well of course you are well in line with your Super General on Mayhem, you must be, otherwise you will loose your stripes. :P
Walk the line huh?
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 12:14:42 AM
Well of course you are well in line with your Super General on Mayhem, you must be, otherwise you will loose your stripes. :P
Walk the line huh?
What's this about? Is it a new line on GMG that if one dislikes something, that one's motives should be questioned instead of one's taste? I like "HIP" singing in early music (Jessye Norman in Mozart would be an abomination to me), but can full well understand and respect that some don't. I can argue their taste and preferences, but not their motives.
Quote from: erato on September 24, 2009, 12:44:37 AM
What's this about? Is it a new line on GMG that if one dislikes something, that one's motives should be questioned instead of one's taste? I like "HIP" singing in early music (Jessye Norman in Mozart would be an abomination to me), but can full well understand and respect that some don't. I can argue their taste and preferences, but not their motives.
Well I question his motives Erato, that's obvious, right?
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 12:48:11 AM
Well I question his motives Erato, that's obvious, right?
You are crazy Harry. You should be well aware I have critisised Kirkby elsewhere, so my comments here are not to 'stirr' but are genuine. From what I have heard of her, which is quite a lot, I genuinely believe Kirkby is a poor singer and that's putting it politely.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 12:53:44 AM
You are crazy Harry. You should be well aware I have critisised Kirkby elsewhere, so my comments here are not to 'stirr' but are genuine. From what I have heard of her, which is quite a lot, I genuinely believe Kirkby is a poor singer and that's putting it politely.
Rod Corkin, that is not at all polite my friend. ;D
Oh dear, oh dear. Aren't we all getting a bit personal?
I am not a big fan of Kirkby, but I would never describe her, as Rod does, as a poor singer. Her pure, asexual, almost choirboyish tone doesn't appeal to me in the music of Mozart and other Classical composers, and I would even question its use in the operas of Handel, but she is evidently technically proficient. The Exsultate Jubilate that DarkAngel posted is ample evidence of that. I listened to it and enjoyed it up to a point, but like ZB, I prefer Te Kanawa in this music. Popp I like even better. However, as Mozart wrote it for a castrato, I suppose none of us will ever know what it sounded like to Mozart.
But I digress. Kirkby is a very fine singer, whose method and style doesn't appeal to me personally. She was at the forefront of the HIP movement and has done much to further its cause, and therefore richly deserves her Damehood.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 24, 2009, 01:29:13 AM
Oh dear, oh dear. Aren't we all getting a bit personal?
I am not a big fan of Kirkby, but I would never describe her, as Rod does, as a poor singer. Her pure, asexual, almost choirboyish tone doesn't appeal to me in the music of Mozart and other Classical composers, and I would even question its use in the operas of Handel, but she is evidently technically proficient. The Exsultate Jubilate that DarkAngel posted is ample evidence of that. I listened to it and enjoyed it up to a point, but like ZB, I prefer Te Kanawa in this music. Popp I like even better. However, as Mozart wrote it for a castrato, I suppose none of us will ever know what it sounded like to Mozart.
But I digress. Kirkby is a very fine singer, whose method and style doesn't appeal to me personally. She was at the forefront of the HIP movement and has done much to further its cause, and therefore richly deserves her Damehood.
She is a fine singer you say, but you can't think of any music which would suit her voice?? Perhaps she deserves her Damehood for 'general services' to the UK music scene, but certainly for her services to Handel, since you mention him, she deserves less than many other less well known singers who I can confirm do a
much better job with the same music.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 02:04:08 AM
She is a fine singer you say, but you can't think of any music which would suit her voice??
Did I say that? I think not. Not that you ever take any notice of what other people are
actually saying. As it happens I can think of music that suits her admirably - that first disc of the music of Hildegard of Bingen she did is pure enchantment. I also enjoy much of what she does in sacred pre Classical music. She obviously has a sound technique, otherwise she would not have had such a long career. You may not like her style of singing, but that doesn't make her a poor singer. No matter. As usual, you are intent on creating controversy and bad feeling. Really, I don't know why I bother replying.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 02:04:08 AM
She is a fine singer you say, but you can't think of any music which would suit her voice?? Perhaps she deserves her Damehood for 'general services' to the UK music scene, but certainly for her services to Handel, since you mention him, she deserves less than many other less well known singers who I can confirm do a much better job with the same music.
Purcell, Handel, Mozart, Bach, Dowland, Bingen, and so on!
I think you are a little crazy too Rod, if you would deny her excellence in the many recordings she made. ;)
And most of them where bestsellers.
So, many people can think of music that suits her.
Only you are not one of them, well, that is your loss.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 24, 2009, 02:27:18 AM
Really, I don't know why I bother replying.
Neither do I, really you can't say anything at GMG without all hell breaking lose. This is a suffocating forum.
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 02:28:26 AM
So, many people can think of music that suits her.
So can I.
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 02:28:26 AM
Only you are not one of them, well, that is your loss.[/i]
And that is why I don't understand discussions like these, that's his loss, so what concern is that to us (and likewise to Rod; why bother that somebody enjoys Dame Emma?)?
Quote from: erato on September 24, 2009, 03:10:04 AM
(and likewise to Rod; why bother that somebody enjoys Dame Emma?)?
I responded validly to the original post and was prepared to leave it at that, then Harry gets into one of his usual paranoid attacks and yet another GMG topic descends into farce.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 03:13:24 AM
I responded validly to the original post and was prepared to leave it at that, then Harry gets into one of his usual paranoid attacks and yet another GMG topic descends into farce.
;D ;D ;D ;D
That was really funny mon general.
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 12:14:42 AM
Well of course you are well in line with your Super General on Mayhem, you must be, otherwise you will loose your stripes. :P
Walk the line huh?
When I look at Mayhem (I would post but every post reads like a treatise, I really don't have what it takes to contribute there :o) I see the two disagreeing as much as they agree. I think that you can trust Sorin to speak his mind. :)
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 03:19:42 AM
;D ;D ;D ;D
That was really funny mon general.
Well I suggest you appologise to Mark for wrecking his topic. But if this topic is only for the 'Kirkby fan club' it should have been titled to reflect that. I could easily
demonstrate Kirkby's inferiority, and in fact have done at my site in the past, but it seems the GMGer mindset is not tollerant of contradiction without things turning nasty. On matters such as this talk on its own is very cheap gentlemen..
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2009, 03:43:12 AM
When I look at Mayhem (I would post but every post reads like a treatise, I really don't have what it takes to contribute there :o) I see the two disagreeing as much as they agree. I think that you can trust Sorin to speak his mind. :)
I know only too well you haven't got what it takes. But as for the British honours system, I would scrap it tomorrow.
Oh how I wish there were an ignore option on this site. Then I'd never have to read the rantings of certain individuals ever again!
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 24, 2009, 07:41:36 AM
Oh how I wish there were an ignore option on this site. Then I'd never have to read the rantings of certain individuals ever again!
Don't refer to Harry like that if you don't mind. But in any case that is a short sighted remark, if people had the option to ignore certain individuals then a lot of topics would cease to have any cohesion as viewers and posters would all be seeing different things. I know the truth of it because I have seen such a facility in operation elsewhere. Basically when you introduce that you kill the forum.
An easier method is to simply develop the maturity to accept that not everyone is going to agree with everything you write.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 08:01:31 AM
An easier method is to simply develop the maturity to accept that not everyone is going to agree with everything you write.
A statement with which I wholeheartedly agree. I also wish people would practice what they preach.
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 08:01:31 AM
Don't refer to Harry like that if you don't mind. But in any case that is a short sighted remark, if people had the option to ignore certain individuals then a lot of topics would cease to have any cohesion as viewers and posters would all be seeing different things. I know the truth of it because I have seen such a facility in operation elsewhere. Basically when you introduce that you kill the forum. An easier method is to simply develop the maturity to accept that not everyone is going to agree with everything you write.
Rod my friend, I don't think he was refering to me, you cunning fellow! ;D
The problem with special, identifiable timbres, like character actors, they work in certain contexts and in others, not. Renee Fleming's cultivation of a "double cream" timbre (that she mentions in her book) gets a little gooey when clarity is needed. Cutting out the lower resonance is limiting with men who sing in the treble. After all, women contraltos DO have a sultry register to use when needed!!
A near vibrato-less tone works with plainchant and Renaissance music, that is, as long as we don't know how it actually sounded like. Where Kirkby becomes nearly inaudible in the "Exultate" is around D and E above middle C. Not so with Te Kanawa. The saying is "if you don't use it, you lose it".
Also, I get a little suspicious about the packaging, like using Baroque paintings, etc., to make you feel like you are in an "antique" atmosphere, even when they are off by 100-200 years or so.
ZB
I was just doing some of required listening for my music history course, and I came across this recording:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3wAarmPYKU
Then I saw this thread! Thought I'd share...I certainly found the performance striking.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 24, 2009, 08:30:15 AM
A statement with which I wholeheartedly agree. I also wish people would practice what they preach.
That statement from me was directed to you in particular. I suggest you start practicing yourself, pronto.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on September 24, 2009, 09:46:59 AM
A near vibrato-less tone works with plainchant and Renaissance music, that is, as long as we don't know how it actually sounded like. Where Kirkby becomes nearly inaudible in the "Exultate" is around D and E above middle C. Not so with Te Kanawa. The saying is "if you don't use it, you lose it"
Are you referring to Kirkby as vibrato-less here? If so I assure you such cases are in the minority, I have many recordings whereby her warbling is most distracting. And that in addition to her thin tone is often terminal to a performance. On rare occasions she can control her giggling schoolgirl tendencies, but alas more often than not she cannot.
What a terrible shame. This thread began as an invitation to appreciate the immense contribution of Dame Emma Kirkby (for it is indeed immense by any standards, regardless of whether one does or does not 'like' her voice), and look at what it has become - a battleground for the expression of personal attacks and curmudgeonly grumbles. And even by choosing not to remain silent, I'm aware that I am myself now contributing further to the drift away from the intention of the thread.
Let's just imagine for a moment that she might happen to browse through GMG one day and stumble on this thread. Or perhaps a friend of hers might? Would we be happy about that? Or would we be ashamed? (The questions are rhetorical: I'm not requesting opinions.)
Quote from: Elgarian on September 24, 2009, 12:47:31 PM
What a terrible shame. This thread began as an invitation to appreciate the immense contribution of Dame Emma Kirkby (for it is indeed immense by any standards, regardless of whether one does or does not 'like' her voice), and look at what it has become - a battleground for the expression of personal attacks and curmudgeonly grumbles. And even by choosing not to remain silent, I'm aware that I am myself now contributing further to the drift away from the intention of the thread.
Let's just imagine for a moment that she might happen to browse through GMG one day and stumble on this thread. Or perhaps a friend of hers might? Would we be happy about that? Or would we be ashamed? (The questions are rhetorical: I'm not requesting opinions.)
Very well put. (And as a further reminder, GMG posts do show up in Internet searches, so it's not so far-fetched to think that she might find this.)
PS, I listened to a few of those YouTube links, and thought, what a beautiful voice. But if I've said it once, I've said it a million times: voices are a very personal thing.
--Bruce
Quote from: Elgarian on September 24, 2009, 12:47:31 PM
What a terrible shame. This thread began as an invitation to appreciate the immense contribution of Dame Emma Kirkby (for it is indeed immense by any standards, regardless of whether one does or does not 'like' her voice), and look at what it has become - a battleground for the expression of personal attacks and curmudgeonly grumbles. And even by choosing not to remain silent, I'm aware that I am myself now contributing further to the drift away from the intention of the thread.
Let's just imagine for a moment that she might happen to browse through GMG one day and stumble on this thread. Or perhaps a friend of hers might? Would we be happy about that? Or would we be ashamed? (The questions are rhetorical: I'm not requesting opinions.)
How melodramatic of you Elgarian. The original post was as follows "Whatever you think about the British Honours system, surely you'll agree that Dame Emma Kirkby has earned hers?"
It appears many of you have not noticed there is a question mark at the end of that sentence. I stated myself she may deserve it for services to the UK music industry, but if the poster is asking whether she deserves it for being a great soprano I said she does not, it is all as simple as that. Everything else you have witnessed is the usual paranoid crap you get at this forum.
Dame Emma Kirkby is by no means my favorite soprano, either, but she sings quite well, flexible, good diction, and generally on pitch. Here's a good example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0xbY-50NAw
Quote from: Harry on September 24, 2009, 12:48:11 AMWell of course you are well in line with your Super General on Mayhem, you must be, otherwise you will loose your stripes. Tongue
Walk the line huh?
Well I question his motives Erato, that's obvious, right?
I saw this coming a mile away. I wasn't thrilled with Ms. Kirby's voice
before joining CMM, if that helps at all. If anything it is our similar tastes that enables me to endure Mr. Corkin more than most! ;D Why the hostility toward CMM, though? We've always been inviting to those of contrasting opinions. I know I'd love to see your posts in some of my Berwald or Mozart topics, Harry!
Quote from: DavidW on September 24, 2009, 03:43:12 AM
When I look at Mayhem (I would post but every post reads like a treatise, I really don't have what it takes to contribute there :o) I see the two disagreeing as much as they agree. I think that you can trust Sorin to speak his mind. :)
Thank you, David. Don't be afraid to jump right in over there, though! :)
I must agree, however, that this is a venue for personal opinion related to Emma Kirby, not personal attacks. I'm not a moderator here, but I think I can spot when something's going off-topic... ;)
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 24, 2009, 12:31:15 PM
That statement from me was directed to you in particular. I suggest you start practicing yourself, pronto.
But I was being entirely reasonable. I found myself in the unenviable position of defending a singer I don't particularly like, against your unjust comments. You may not like her, Rod. I can't say that I do much, but that is something completely different from saying she is a poor singer. She has her limitations (what singer doesn't?), and ZB has pointed out that the voice doesn't really sound in the notes around middle C, which makes her unsuitable, to my ears, for the music of Mozart. On the other hand her precision in coloratura
is impressive, and she doesn't resort to the dreaded aspirate as Bartoli does, so, no, she is not a bad or a poor singer. Personally I prefer a larger voice with more overtones, but this is my preference. Those who like and enjoy Emma Kirkby are perfectly entitled to do so.
Quote from: bhodges on September 24, 2009, 12:53:50 PMPS, I listened to a few of those YouTube links, and thought, what a beautiful voice. But if I've said it once, I've said it a million times: voices are a very personal thing.
Probably as easy as that. I'm no expert at voices and cannot criticize techniques; least I can say is, I like her singing very much in baroque and earlier music.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 24, 2009, 04:17:43 PM
Personally I prefer a larger voice with more overtones, but this is my preference.
So basically you in fact agree with me.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 24, 2009, 04:17:43 PM
Those who like and enjoy Emma Kirkby are perfectly entitled to do so.
And where did I say otherwise?
I give up
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on September 25, 2009, 02:10:15 AM
I give up
Rod doesn't understand the differnce between absolutes (ie being right) and preferences (ie liking), or the difference between objective and subjective. Fat news to anyone who's been around here for some time.
Quote from: erato on September 25, 2009, 02:35:53 AM
Rod doesn't understand the differnce between absolutes (ie being right) and preferences (ie liking), or the difference between objective and subjective. Fat news to anyone who's been around here for some time.
You are not clever enough to tell me what I do or do not understand - from the outset I was speaking for myself. But my opinion is not an uninformed one. I have over a dozen recordings with Kirkby playing a principle role. In every case she is the weak link in the cast. And so these days I no longer contemplate buying a recording with her in the line-up. That is something you guys will just have to live with. I am aware Kirkby has a cult following amongst bearded crusty old men, but it is just that, a cult. I have no more time to waste on this matter, so you can return to your gushing praise for the Dame.
Now after this skirmish among friends, lets go back to the fabulous voice of Dame Emma Kirkby.
If all things work for me, I will meet this lady in a concert that is also sponsored by my firm, later this year.
I have spoken to her before, so this will be a talk amongst friends.
Now, should I tell her about this all? ;)
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 25, 2009, 02:58:25 AM
That is something you guys will just have to live with. I am aware Kirkby has a cult following amongst bearded crusty old men, but it is just that, a cult. I have no more time to waste on this matter, so you can return to your gushing praise for the Dame.
If by you you mean me, reread my posts. I'm not in the bearded crusty old man club which I would have guessed my posts should have revealed. Like most performers she does good and less good stuff, and however good she is, she is not unique. There's very few performers I couldn't live without (come to think of it, none). Composers, on the other hand, is quite another matter.
Edit:
Quote from: Rod Corkin on September 25, 2009, 02:58:25 AM
You are not clever enough to tell me what I do or do not understand - from the outset I was speaking for myself.
And your use of clever enough speaks of your belief in absolutes; and that the cleverer you are, the more right you must be. Clever doesn't come into it, where matters of taste and personal preference are concerned.
But; You dislike Emma, Harry idolizes her, and most of us others are somewhat inbetween. So what?
Quote from: Harry on September 25, 2009, 03:35:34 AM
If all things work for me, I will meet this lady in a concert that is also sponsored by my firm, later this year.
Sounds like a great prospect, Harry. I would imagine she'd be a very charming person to meet (and I bet you could have a very informed conversation with her too, if the circumstances were right).
Emma Kirkby received her Dame Commander designation in 2007
A very high honor for female musical artist, she joins short list below
Some other female musical recipients of Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire - DBE:
2009 - Mitsuko Uchida
2000 - Julie Andrews
1996 - Felicity Lott
1992 - Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
1986 - Gwyneth Jones
1982 - Kiri Te Kanawa
1979 - Joan Sutherland
1976 - Janet Baker
If we were to expand list to next lower level Commanders of the Order of the British Empire - CBE we would see quite
a few more familiar names
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 26, 2009, 05:50:12 AM
Emma Kirkby received her Dame Commander designation in 2007
A very high honor for female musical artist, she joins short list below
Some other female musical recipients of Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire - DBE:
2009 - Mitsuko Uchida
2000 - Julie Andrews
1996 - Felicity Lott
1992 - Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
1986 - Gwyneth Jones
1982 - Kiri Te Kanawa
1979 - Joan Sutherland
1976 - Janet Baker
If we were to expand list to next lower level Commanders of the Order of the British Empire - CBE we would see quite
a few more familiar names
Perhaps few on this list really deserved the designation according to some individual ... ;D
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 26, 2009, 05:50:12 AM
If we were to expand list to next lower level Commanders of the Order of the British Empire - CBE we would see quite
a few more familiar names
You will find Tervor Pinnock and Christopher Hogwood on this list as well. John Eliot Gardiner was actually knighted.
Quote from: Coopmv on September 26, 2009, 09:51:33 AM
You will find Tervor Pinnock and Christopher Hogwood on this list as well. John Eliot Gardiner was actually knighted.
Almost but not quite.........
all those received
Commander - CBE status, one step below Knight Commander - KBE, so they are not able to use the title "Sir" since that is reserved only for Knights Grand Cross or Knights Commander still living in UK.
Male classical musicans who have attained
Knight Commander - KBE status include:
Antal Dorati
Murray Perahia
Mstislav Rostropovich
Arthur Rubenstein
Georg Solti
List greatly expands for next lower level Commander - CBE and just a sample of names includes:
Colin Davis
John Elliot Gardiner
Christopher Hogwood
Charles MacKerras
Trevor Pinnock
Simon Rattle
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 26, 2009, 05:43:23 PM
Almost but not quite.........
all those received Commander - CBE status, one step below Knight Commander - KBE, so they are not able to use the title "Sir" since that is reserved only for Knights Grand Cross or Knights Commander still living in UK.
Male classical musicans who have attained Knight Commander - KBE status include:
Antal Dorati
Murray Perahia
Mstislav Rostropovich
Arthur Rubenstein
Georg Solti
List greatly expands for next lower level Commander - CBE and just a sample of names includes:
Colin Davis
John Elliot Gardiner
Christopher Hogwood
Charles MacKerras
Trevor Pinnock
Simon Rattle
Are you sure your list is completely correct? I have seen recordings that addressed both John Eliot Gardiner and Colin Davis as "Sir" on the covers. BTW, you left out Neville Marriner and Yehudi Menuhin from your list.
Quote from: Coopmv on September 26, 2009, 06:07:43 PM
Are you sure your list is completely correct? I have seen recordings that addressed both John Eliot Gardiner and Colin Davis as "Sir" on the covers. BTW, you left out Neville Marriner and Yehudi Menuhin from your list.
According to WIKI Music they are only Commander status, but perhaps there is some way a Commander can also use the title "Sir"
I have also seen some of those list themselves as Sir on CD covers.............
The Commander list above is only a small sample of the 8960 total membership
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire)
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 26, 2009, 06:45:37 PM
According to WIKI Music they are only Commander status, but perhaps there is some way a Commander can also use the title "Sir"
I have also seen some of those list themselves as Sir on CD covers.............
The Commander list above is only a small sample of the 8960 total membership
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire)
Wiki pages are not 100% accurate. I have only seen Gardiner referred to as "Sir" but not Pinnock and Hogwood.
Quote from: DarkAngel on September 26, 2009, 05:43:23 PM
List greatly expands for next lower level Commander - CBE and just a sample of names includes:
Colin Davis
John Elliot Gardiner
Christopher Hogwood
Charles MacKerras
Trevor Pinnock
Simon Rattle
If I'm not mistaken
Sir Roger Norrington should also be on this list. ;)
Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on November 15, 2009, 01:35:23 AM
If I'm not mistaken Sir Roger Norrington should also be on this list. ;)
What about Neville Marriner?
Quote from: bhodges on September 24, 2009, 12:53:50 PM
[....] if I've said it once, I've said it a million times: voices are a very personal thing.
Bit late, but
quoted for truth.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515G7AJNBVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
from the Recent Purchases thread:
[re: Emma Kirkby's ITALIAN CANTATAS w/Hogwood/AAM]
Quote from: Bogey on January 19, 2013, 07:26:20 PM
....and add this to the list of ones that you will not regret. Singing at its best....a beautiful disc.
Thanks for that, Bogey.
I am quite interested in getting some more Kirkby, as I think her voice will stay with me as a favorite in certain kinds of music. I am forgetting all I know of her just now....definitely the Dowland and Monteverdi recordings with Rooley; Hogwood's Handel MESSIAH; Parrott's marvelous Handel CARMELITE VESPERS (a big favorite, and not just out of the Handel I know), as well as some of his Bach and Monteverdi. I've heard the Hildegard of Bingen FEATHER ON THE BREATH OF GOD record with Kirkby guesting (only on a few tracks? it's been years), as well. It's hard to believe it, but I think that's the extent of my exposure to Kirkby's art. I am certain I won't be the only one to benefit from the veterans' suggestions here.
Would anyone be willing to offer a shortlist of personal essentials of recordings in which she's featured?
I'm interested in a 3cd of Handel arias with Roy Goodman (Hyperion), but I'm not sure what else I need to hear. I saw one recommendation in this thread for her Mozart/Hogwood
Exsultate Jubilate, not the first time I've heard that recordings singled out as a winner.
Quote from: Octave on January 19, 2013, 10:40:08 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515G7AJNBVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
from the Recent Purchases thread:
[re: Emma Kirkby's ITALIAN CANTATAS w/Hogwood/AAM]
Thanks for that, Bogey.
I am quite interested in getting some more Kirkby, as I think her voice will stay with me as a favorite in certain kinds of music. I am forgetting all I know of her just now....definitely the Dowland and Monteverdi recordings with Rooley; Hogwood's Handel MESSIAH; Parrott's marvelous Handel CARMELITE VESPERS (a big favorite, and not just out of the Handel I know), as well as some of his Bach and Monteverdi. I've heard the Hildegard of Bingen FEATHER ON THE BREATH OF GOD record with Kirkby guesting (only on a few tracks? it's been years), as well. It's hard to believe it, but I think that's the extent of my exposure to Kirkby's art. I am certain I won't be the only one to benefit from the veterans' suggestions here.
Would anyone be willing to offer a shortlist of personal essentials of recordings in which she's featured?
I'm interested in a 3cd of Handel arias with Roy Goodman (Hyperion), but I'm not sure what else I need to hear. I saw one recommendation in this thread for her Mozart/Hogwood Exsultate Jubilate, not the first time I've heard that recordings singled out as a winner.
I have had the original recording on L'oiseau Lyre since I bought it probably a quarter of a century ago. Since then, a few other versions have hit the market. However, this version remains the gold standard and my personal favorite (I have a few other versions). I emailed Christopher Hogwood a few years ago that this version of Handel Italian Cantatas will stand as the best version that has ever been made - between the playing of the Academy of Ancient Music with the likes of Monica Huggett, Catherine Mackintosh on the violin to Emma Kirkby as the soloist and Christopher Hogwood conducting from the harpsichord, this is just the absolute best out there. I actually received an autograph on his photo from Hogwood.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61LzwGHLCvL.Image._AA300_.jpg)
BTW, the L'oiseau Lyre label really represents the golden age of early/baroque music ...
Is there a difference between the recording that you mention, Coop, and the Eloquence reissue I purchased? It looks like they both contain the same four cantatas, albeit maybe in a different order. I haven't received my copy, so I cannot compare the exact personnel to the edition you posted, whose details are here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100622 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100622)
I think they are the "same" album.
Quote from: Octave on January 20, 2013, 06:09:53 AM
Is there a difference between the recording that you mention, Coop, and the Eloquence reissue I purchased? It looks like they both contain the same four cantatas, albeit maybe in a different order. I haven't received my copy, so I cannot compare the exact personnel to the edition you posted, whose details are here:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100622 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100622)
I think they are the "same" album.
They are probably the same recordings. I am not sure if the L'oiseau Lyre label has been phased out by UniversalMusic. If you are familiar with the Argo label, we have not seen that label in quite a while as well.
Quote from: Coopmv on January 20, 2013, 08:48:59 AM
They are probably the same recordings. I am not sure if the L'oiseau Lyre label has been phased out by UniversalMusic. If you are familiar with the Argo label, we have not seen that label in quite a while as well.
Those labels have been phased out quite a long time ago, though there have been som reissue activity (some of the L'oiseau Lyres with the original labels). Other have been reissued on other labels or with other covers.
Might I rec. this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UcN6LIa1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BapFsZjIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QyQCa6RkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
the list goes on. I believe that Harry may have seen her live at one point. I could be wrong.
For she was like a refiner's fire when I heard her for the first time in 1981.
Quote from: Bogey on January 20, 2013, 02:48:13 PM
Might I rec. this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UcN6LIa1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61BapFsZjIL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QyQCa6RkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
the list goes on. I believe that Harry may have seen her live at one point. I could be wrong.
I have the first CD but should get the second one, which I do not have. The third one is somewhat iffy since I still have not fully warmed up to Monteverdi, even though I generally like early music ...
Two years!!!!!!
I decided to bump the Kirkby thread since she certainly deserves it! :)
The Lady Musick: Elizabethan Songs Kirkby/Rooley
(works by Bartlet/Campion/Danyel/Dowland/Edwards/Jones/Morley/Pilkington)
Wow! I had almost forgotten how much I enjoy the warm clarity of Kirkby's voice. I remember how I was enchanted by her performances of Handel's Italian Cantatas back in the late 80s. In one sense her recordings really opened up Baroque music for me in a completely new way and ever since her name always has triggered a sense of time and beauty in my mind. This disc with Elizabethan Songs is pure delight - essence of music - like a magic bottle allowing one to transport oneself into a different realm. Kirkby's voice and Rooley's lute work well together. It is my first encounter with this specific recording and I am thoroughly and deeply enchanted.
(http://cdn.discogs.com/m2gspHHOPzy2ucBqv7sNzqQ_uPk=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-1225665-1376746595-5481.jpeg.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81qKQJxzCGL._SL1400_.jpg)
Is anybody else getting the recent Kirkby compilation? I presume it creates plenty of overlap/duplicates?
[asin] B00QBEQWQU[/asin]
"This 12CD collection brings together Emma Kirkby s complete L'Oiseau-Lyre recitals in a single set. The world s most popular period-instrument soprano, Kirkby s pure, crystalline sound defined how vocal music of the baroque and earlier eras should sound for a whole generation or more.
Accompanied in the main by Anthony Rooley, the set features works by Purcell, Handel, Bach and Mozart as well as rarely recorded works by Edwards, Campion, Dowland, Morley, Ferrabosco and many more.
Lindsay Kemp writes: Even today, nearly half a century after performing styles in music of the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical periods underwent a major upheaval thanks to what has become known as the early music movement , there are few alumni of that revolution (some conductors excepted) who could be considered stars recognised in the wider musical world. That Emma Kirkby is one, and that she has maintained that status without
compromise to the style and principles of music-making with which she started out, is testimony not just to the distinctive pure colouring of her voice, but to a steady artistic integrity, personal modesty and generosity that have made her one of the most professionally respected and well-loved figures in the business.
Tracklisting
[1] The Lady Musick Elizabethan Songs
[Edwards, Campion, Dowland, Morley, etc.]
53.03 [DSLO 559 / 425 8992]
[2] Pastoral Dialogues
[Corkine, Dowland, Johnson, Lawes, D India, etc.]
57.23 [DSLO 575 / 480 2143]
[3] Amorous Dialogues
[Bartlett, Ferrabosco, Morley, Lawes, D India, Monteverdi, etc.]
52.55 [DSLO 587 / 480 2144]
[4] Duetti da Camera
[D India, Frescobaldi, Grandi, Monteverdi, Sabbatini, etc.]
51.28 [DSLO 558 / 436 6122]
[5] Purcell: Songs and airs
45.31 [DSDL 713 / 417 123-2]
[6] Bach: Coffee Cantata
52.03 [417 621-2]
[7] Bach Wedding Cantatas
64.00 [455 972-2]
[8] Emma Kirkby sings Mrs Arne
[Handel, Lampe, Arne
71.27 [436 1322]
[9] Handel: Italian Cantatas
54.16 [414 4732]
[10] Handel: Italian Cantatas
41.22 [DSLO 580 + additions NEW COMPILATION
[11] Mozart: Esultate, jubilate, etc.
47.12 [411 8322]
[12] Mozart: Arias
54.44 [425 8352]"
Quote from: Moonfish on March 04, 2015, 08:26:34 AM
Is anybody else getting the recent Kirkby compilation? I presume it creates plenty of overlap/duplicates?
[asin] B00QBEQWQU[/asin]
"This 12CD collection brings together Emma Kirkby s complete L'Oiseau-Lyre recitals in a single set. The world s most popular period-instrument soprano, Kirkby s pure, crystalline sound defined how vocal music of the baroque and earlier eras should sound for a whole generation or more.
Accompanied in the main by Anthony Rooley, the set features works by Purcell, Handel, Bach and Mozart as well as rarely recorded works by Edwards, Campion, Dowland, Morley, Ferrabosco and many more.
Lindsay Kemp writes: Even today, nearly half a century after performing styles in music of the Renaissance, Baroque and Classical periods underwent a major upheaval thanks to what has become known as the early music movement , there are few alumni of that revolution (some conductors excepted) who could be considered stars recognised in the wider musical world. That Emma Kirkby is one, and that she has maintained that status without
compromise to the style and principles of music-making with which she started out, is testimony not just to the distinctive pure colouring of her voice, but to a steady artistic integrity, personal modesty and generosity that have made her one of the most professionally respected and well-loved figures in the business.
Tracklisting
[1] The Lady Musick Elizabethan Songs
[Edwards, Campion, Dowland, Morley, etc.]
53.03 [DSLO 559 / 425 8992]
[2] Pastoral Dialogues
[Corkine, Dowland, Johnson, Lawes, D India, etc.]
57.23 [DSLO 575 / 480 2143]
[3] Amorous Dialogues
[Bartlett, Ferrabosco, Morley, Lawes, D India, Monteverdi, etc.]
52.55 [DSLO 587 / 480 2144]
[4] Duetti da Camera
[D India, Frescobaldi, Grandi, Monteverdi, Sabbatini, etc.]
51.28 [DSLO 558 / 436 6122]
[5] Purcell: Songs and airs
45.31 [DSDL 713 / 417 123-2]
[6] Bach: Coffee Cantata
52.03 [417 621-2]
[7] Bach Wedding Cantatas
64.00 [455 972-2]
[8] Emma Kirkby sings Mrs Arne
[Handel, Lampe, Arne
71.27 [436 1322]
[9] Handel: Italian Cantatas
54.16 [414 4732]
[10] Handel: Italian Cantatas
41.22 [DSLO 580 + additions NEW COMPILATION
[11] Mozart: Esultate, jubilate, etc.
47.12 [411 8322]
[12] Mozart: Arias
54.44 [425 8352]"
Great box.
I just had to hear her voice again, so I browsed up her singing Dido's Lament on youtube. I was amazed anew; her voice has darkened a little over the years (and she may have darkened it even more to do this mezzo role), but she still has that divine lightness and clarity and flawless early-music graces. ;D 8) ;D