From here (read the comments, too) (http://chicagoclassicalreview.com/2010/01/in-duo-roles-boulez-spotlighted-magnificently-with-cso/):
QuoteOnly the dismal horn playing of Dale Clevenger was a blot on an otherwise evocative, beautifully colored performance.
Von Rhein (http://chicago.metromix.com/home/review/at-85-boulez-pays/1724613/content):
QuoteIf not for the disappointing work of the principal horn, this "Firebird" would rank right up there with Boulez's wondrous 1992 recording of the Stravinsky with the CSO.
So... One concert wouldn't be a big deal, but some of those commentators mentioned his playing has been deteriorating for years now. :o
And I've ran across several other reviews with similar assesments.
Any Chicagoans here? Can anyone confirm or
deny this?
For some reason, Clevenger seems to have had a bad run with the Stravinsky: I heard them do the same piece at Carnegie, where he was also having a not-so-good night. But I don't think it's anything more than a blip on the graph (speaking, however, as someone who hears the orchestra only a couple of times a year). He's a superb player, and if there is anything like a "trend" in his playing (i.e., for the worse) I haven't heard of it. He was excellent in the rest of the programs here.
--Bruce
Thank you, Bruce, that comments gives me back some faith. Clevenger is almost an icon.
And this one still haunts me:
QuoteI heard both of the CSO concerts this past weekend at Carnegie Hall, and I have heard every single CSO concert at Carnegie for the past 8 or 9 years. I started to notice a decline in Dale Clevenger's playing about 4 or 5 years ago. Each year when I hear him play, his inaccuracy keeps increasing, to the point this year, where I felt that his playing completely destroyed the performance of The Firebird. If Clevenger was having a bad week, or if this were a temporary problem with his chops, Boulez and the brass section would have agreed to let the Associate Principal horn, Daniel Gingrich, who is a fantastic player, play principal horn in the Firebird. Saturday night, everything seemed fine, though.
Well, that's an interesting comment (and I agree with your "icon" characterization). Again, I can't really confirm or deny, since what I've heard the last few years has been mostly terrific. The CSO appearances here (with either Haitink or Boulez) have been among my favorite concerts every year, and the entire orchestra, including Clevenger, has sounded marvelous.
I'm thinking back, for example, to their absolutely scorching performance of Bartók's Miraculous Mandarin a couple of years ago (with Boulez), and don't recall any weird moments in the horns at all--or from anyone else, either!
--Bruce
Von Rhein must pick up a horn and show us all how it is done :P
Clevenger is almost 70 now, past the age when most brass players in orchestras have retired. It may be time for him to retire. But in his prime, he was one of the greatest horn players ever.
Speaking as a former horn player myself, it truly is a tough instrument.
Being principal horn is a top orchestra is rather like being a bullfighter; you're dealing with a tempermental and unpredictable beast which can turn on you any moment.
A study ranking jobs on their stress levels put being principal horn in a great orchestra right on top ! No wonder. In US and British orchestras, an assistant principal horn is used to help the principal on the long difficult works of the repertoire,
but not the shorter less demanding ones, so he can save his strength for the solos
and stop playing from time to time and avoid exhaustion, as well as to double the principal in louder passages to reinforce the sound of the horns.
Being a professional horn player is not a job for the faint-hearted.
Quote from: Superhorn on April 15, 2010, 03:00:50 PM
Clevenger is almost 70 now, past the age when most brass players in orchestras have retired. It may be time for him to retire. But in his prime, he was one of the greatest horn players ever.
Speaking as a former horn player myself, it truly is a tough instrument.
Being principal horn is a top orchestra is rather like being a bullfighter; you're dealing with a tempermental and unpredictable beast which can turn on you any moment.
A study ranking jobs on their stress levels put being principal horn in a great orchestra right on top ! No wonder. In US and British orchestras, an assistant principal horn is used to help the principal on the long difficult works of the repertoire,
but not the shorter less demanding ones, so he can save his strength for the solos
and stop playing from time to time and avoid exhaustion, as well as to double the principal in louder passages to reinforce the sound of the horns.
Being a professional horn player is not a job for the faint-hearted.
Could you expand on your fascinating comments by giving us some specifics of the physical and other difficulties of the job? And a few comments on what you think horn players lives were probably like before valves?
Quote from: Chaszz on April 17, 2010, 06:27:29 AM
Could you expand on your fascinating comments by giving us some specifics of the physical and other difficulties of the job? And a few comments on what you think horn players lives were probably like before valves?
I would like to know this too. :D
So given all this, and especially his age, Muti will probably choose Clevenger's successor.
And to say it will be interesting to see who the CSO will end up with is an understatement. 8)
Quote from: Chaszz on April 17, 2010, 06:27:29 AM
Could you expand on your fascinating comments by giving us some specifics of the physical and other difficulties of the job? And a few comments on what you think horn players lives were probably like before valves?
before valves they probably prayed for music that did not require quick crook changes!
Brass instruments are based on the so-called harmonic series; the instrument has its lowest note, or fundamental, way down in the bass clef, and all the other notes are produced by varying lip pressure . The higher the note, the more lip pressure is required.
Furthermore, the intervals of the notes get progrssively smaller as you go higher;
therefore, the highest notes are very close to each other, and the player has very little margin for error. If you're off by only a tiny fraction of pressure, you hit an adjacent note. That's what you hear when a horn player cracks a note.
Playing a part with a lot of high notes is very tiring to the lip; after a long session of either rehearsing or performing,your lips get tender and sore, and your endurance goes.
Coming in after a long rest in a part on a higher note marked t be played softly is extremely difficult; you're very exposed and it's like walking on eggs.
Horn players tend to specialize in high or low parts. The high players specialize in first and third horn parts, and the low players tend to play second and fourth horn.
Fourth horn players have to have a very stron glow register.It's difficult to play the lowest notes with enough strength.
But all players should be able to play low or high notes, because there are occaisional unison passages for all four horns in either the high or the low register.
Thanks, interesting.
Mike
Yes, thanks.
What do the valves do?
And, graciously resisting the impulse to call me a complete boor and philistine, what would your opinion be of some kind of a horn machine that did the hard work and let you use your lips, with less arduous effort, to choose the notes and the intangibles, like vibrato and loudness/softness?
Quote from: Chaszz on April 19, 2010, 07:41:34 AM
Yes, thanks.
What do the valves do?
And, graciously resisting the impulse to call me a complete boor and philistine, what would your opinion be of some kind of a horn machine that did the hard work and let you use your lips, with less arduous effort, to choose the notes and the intangibles, like vibrato and loudness/softness?
I'm not a horn player, "super" or otherwise ;D, but I do know that the valves change the tube length, making it possible to play all the chromatic notes.
And what you call "the hard work" is just what's needed to make horns sound like horns. Any mechanical aids would only make the horn sound mechanical--and they'd have to be inside the players' bodies. :o As an oboist, I walk a similar line between ease of playing and tonal beauty and power, controlled mostly by how I make my reeds. If a reed plays too easily, it tends to sound thin and weak; but I can make reeds that play relatively easily and yet sound deep and full. Any artificial aids, and I wouldn't have anything like the richness and flexibility and expressiveness I can draw from my oboe. :P
On horns, trumpets ,as well as trombones,baritone horns and tubas, the valves are extra lengths of tubing which enable the player to play all the notes of the chromatic scale throughout the range of the instrument. Trombones use a slide to do this, so they don't need valves.
Until the early 19th century, horns and trumpets had no valves; they were basically just coiled tubing. In order to play music in different keys, the player had to insert a different lenght of tubing into the instrument knows nas a crook.
There were crooks in various different keys,C,d,E, F, G etc, and every time the player played a work or movement from one in a different key, he had to remove the crook and change on to the appropriate one.
Brass players could only play in one key at a time, and horns and trumpets could not play all the notes of the chromatic scale because of the gaps in the harmonic series.
But around the 1820s, instrument makers learned that they could make the instruments play all the notes of the scale without changing crooks by adding those lengths of tubing right on to the instrument, and the player would press valves to instantly change the length of tubin, instead of having to change the crook every time.
So the F horn with valves has valves to change the lengths of tubing to the harmonic series of e,e flat,d,d flat and c
The b flat horn has the tubing of a,a flat,g, and g flat. The double horn combines the tubing of the f and b flat horns, and the tubing of the b flat horn is below the tubing of the f horn, and a special thumb valve switches you on to the b flat tubing and off.
In recent years, with the rise of the period instrument movement, the use of natural or valveless horns has been revived, and replicas of the old instruments have been made.
On the natural horn, composers were limited in the kind of melodic lines they could write, and could not just write anything for horns and trumpets.
However, around the mid 18th century, horn players discovered that they could play notes not normally available by closing off the bell with the palm of the right hand, and composers could write more interesting parts, especially for concertos and sonatas etc.
But the closed,or "stopped notes, had a kind of muffled sound, and later when valves became the norm, they would call for stopped notes for special effect, and have ever since.
Very interesting, thanks.
You didn't respond to my question about a hypothetical automated horn. Did Jochanaan's response dispose of it?
I really don't know if such a "horn machine" could ever be made. But it might take away from the beauty of the sound of the horn.
It was the same when valved horns came out in the early 19th century. Some horn players and listeners thought that the addition of valves had "ruined" the beautiful sound of the horn and its vocal qualities. But before long, valved horns became the norm, although the natural and valved instruments co-exites for some time.
It's only been in recent years that the use of natural horns and trumpets has been revived,with the rise of the period instrument movement.
Quote from: Superhorn on April 21, 2010, 07:07:02 AM
I really don't know if such a "horn machine" could ever be made. But it might take away from the beauty of the sound of the horn.
It was the same when valved horns came out in the early 19th century. Some horn players and listeners thought that the addition of valves had "ruined" the beautiful sound of the horn and its vocal qualities. But before long, valved horns became the norm, although the natural and valved instruments co-exites for some time.
It's only been in recent years that the use of natural horns and trumpets has been revived,with the rise of the period instrument movement.
Yes, I heard a natural horn player trying to play Handel's Water Music summer before last at Caramoor in New York, and felt sorry for him and for myself and my friends.