I must say I mostly incline to the second option, though I think I enjoyed him much more in the past.
There are some things that I do see he does well -- dramatic songs, for example, like Der Zwerg and Erlkonig.
But mostly I think I can do without his rather hammy manner. His annoying attention to detail.
But then maybe I am missing something . . .
I wasn't aware that DFD was supposed to be polarizing as the poll suggests. ???
QuoteI must say I mostly incline to the second option, though I think I enjoyed him much more in the past.
There are some things that I do see he does well -- dramatic songs, for example, like Der Zwerg and Erlkonig.
But mostly I think I can do without his rather hammy manner. His annoying attention to detail. . . .
Completely agree. I can sometimes enjoy the young DFD, but on the whole I find his style of interpretation totally annoying and exaggerated. His constant 'pointing out' of details I find completely tiresome. Possibly, his omnipresence has also detracted attention away from a singer whom I enjoy much more and who, in his younger days, had a really incomparable voice and produced the most lovely interpretations of Lieder and Mélodies I know (I mean Gérard Souzay, of course).
Quote from: DavidW on June 18, 2010, 02:31:35 PM
I wasn't aware that DFD was supposed to be polarizing as the poll suggests. ???
I see no polarization, everyone agrees so far. 8)
You have a dissent now.
Actually, I don't think he's da bomb, but he's got a lot more positives than negatives, and while I own some of his Schubert and most of his Mahler, most of what I have of him is opera. And this one I bought fairly recently
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5142THFXN5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
in which, unlike every other version I own, he gives dramatic effect to the baritone solos.
I recommend it to everyone except Scarpia (in deference to his opinions about Janowitz, who is the soprano here).
In some of the Bach cantatas I think he is well worth hearing -- for example in "Es ist vollbracht" - from BWV 159: "Sehet! Wir gehen hinauf gen Jerusalem". with Karl Richter on EMI.
After making the IP for this thread I listened to his Dichterliebe with Vladimir Horowitz. I thought it was appalling -- terrible piano and FD roaring in a vain effort to drown his accompanist.
Yet he can do Schumann quite well sometimes -- I like the Liederkreis Op. 39 in the live CD from Orfeo. And the Kerner Lieder recording with Günther Weissenborn.
But the nadir of his output has to be the Mahler songs with Bernstein at the piano.
QuoteI like the Liederkreis Op. 39 in the live CD from Orfeo.
I remember liking that one as well. It's one of the few recordings by him which I really like. I also like some of his early Schubert Lieder on Emi.
None of the above. Somewhere between the first and second options (closer to the first).
This is a pretty good Winterreise. Certainly my favourite from DFD.
It's from a concert in Prades in 1955
I can remember hearing 7 Winterreises from him at various times, over the years:
- Billing 48
- Moore 51
- Moore 55
- Moore 62
- Moore 72
- Brendel 79 (DVD)
- Brendel 82
I would ditch them all except the 55 -- The one with Billing is beautifully sung but maybe lacking a bit in depth of feeling. By the time of Moore 62 he had become too artificial for me, even though I can appreciate the expressive details.
I agree about the '55 Winterreise and the Orfeo Liederkreis Op.39 (there's an even earlier EMI recording, perhaps even more beautiful and without the coughs). I also agree with Verena about Souzay, who needs a thread of his own. I can take him in homeopathic doses, particularly in rare repertoire like Schoeck (DG), and some of his live Wolf interpretations with Richter are great despite his well-known proclivities. He's unlistenable in opera, but some of his early Bach cantatas etc were moving, without that Hectoring quality, as I recall - as were Souzay's, which remain unavailable like so much of his work owing to his own strange predilection for the later recordings.
QuoteThis is a pretty good Winterreise. Certainly my favourite from DFD.
Agree about this Winterreise. I also greatly enjoyed his Winterreise with Demus on DG - although it's not among DFD's early recordings. I listened to the Demus recording very frequently some years ago. Perhaps I'd now respond differently to it.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 18, 2010, 10:38:08 PM
But the nadir of his output has to be the Mahler songs with Bernstein at the piano.
Which is some of "his Mahler" I don't have. Are you referring to the Wunderhorn recording? I think I've heard it once, many years ago, on radio, when we still had a classical music station in Miami, and was distinctly unimpressed. Of course, at that stage I was not as enthused over Mahler as I am now.
It's true that they did collaborate well on DlvdE, but perhaps the flaw to those recordings is the guy on the piano bench: Bernstein's approach may not have fitted DFD's very well.
Quote from: kishnevi on June 19, 2010, 07:01:48 PM
Which is some of "his Mahler" I don't have. Are you referring to the Wunderhorn recording? I think I've heard it once, many years ago, on radio, when we still had a classical music station in Miami, and was distinctly unimpressed. Of course, at that stage I was not as enthused over Mahler as I am now.
It's true that they did collaborate well on DlvdE, but perhaps the flaw to those recordings is the guy on the piano bench: Bernstein's approach may not have fitted DFD's very well.
I'm talking about the Rückert-Lieder on this recording
Thank you all for the refreshing posts in this thread.
Firstly, I am sure no one here wants to deny the importance of DFD as one of the most significant singers of his generation. And his lifelong dedication to lieder interpretation, including many of the less known composers, is a definitive achievement that will stand as an imprint in singing history.
For many years I also tried to "connect" to the singing of DFD. It was not an easy task. I began with the most widely Known and respected Schubert-Moore DG set. The voice was impressive, the control and nuances of articulation were amazing and his obvious technical command made him capable of overcoming any demand. But in spite of all his perfection my personal sensibility was not touched. Everything seemed to be there and I couldn't understand clearly what I missed. I thought it was my lack of serious musical Knowledge or, as someone put it once, just my inability to recognize good singing. In fact many of my musical friends, and even some professional singers I Know, consider my coldness to DFD some form of snobbish and unjust attitude to one of the most revered interpreters of our time.
I did explore further and like others in this thread I also became more responsive to DFD's Wolf or Brahms than to his Schubert or Schumann. I also recognized, and appreciated, that in his earlier interpretations his singing is much more natural and the musical flow and phrasing is not submerged by so many emphatic details of articulation.
But the fact remains that after years of listening to German lieder I still prefer singers like Souzay, Hotter, Schiotz, Wunderlich, Munteanu, Prey or Husch to the overpowering DFD. They may have lesser technical means, be much less regular in their performances and sometimes may exhibit imperfections or even stylish exaggerations. And certainly didn't cover so extensively the repertoire. But their singing was much more warm and natural. Probably less detailed and studied but, at least for me, more poetically profound and humane.
QuoteBut the fact remains that after years of listening to German lieder I still prefer singers like Souzay, Hotter, Schiotz, Wunderlich, Munteanu, Prey or Husch to the overpowering DFD. They may have lesser technical means, be much less regular in their performances and sometimes may exhibit imperfections or even stylish exaggerations. And certainly didn't cover so extensively the repertoire. But their singing was much more warm and natural. Probably less detailed and studied but, at least for me, more poetically profound and humane.
In a possibly similar vein, I'd say that DFD gives the impression of a teacher who points out the relevance of particular parts of a poem. This is very annoying to me - I don't feel the need to be taught anything when listening to music. In a way, DFD creates a distance between himself (the listener) and the music - but when I'm listening to music, in want to be immersed rather than reflectively engaged in it it.
On the other hand, he lacks a really exceptional timbre in my view - setting aside some of his early recordings, where he could sometimes sound quite beautiful. But singers such as Wunderlich and especially the young Souzay had a much more beautiful timbre in my opinion. This is probably also true for Huesch, but somehow I don't "get" that voice, it somehow calls up unpleasant associations.
I've never been one of those who findthe great FD "self-concious,unspontaneous and hammy". How unfair to such a great artist!
He was not only a great lieder singer, but wonderful in opera. Unfortunately,I never got to see him on stage, but his
recorded portrayals of such characters as Wozzeck, Don Giovanni, Mathis der Maler, Hans Sachs, Doktor Faust, Mandryka in Arabella, Lear in Reimann's Lear, and many other roles are truly compelling.
He really could act with his voice,and he is said to have been a great actor onstage in opera and a riveting stage presence.
Quote from: ccar on June 20, 2010, 03:46:08 AM
Firstly, I am sure no one here wants to deny the importance of DFD as one of the most significant singers of his generation. And his lifelong dedication to Lieder interpretation, including many of the less known composers, is a definitive achievement that will stand as an imprint in singing history.
Ditto to the above. His discography is a virtual library of the German repertoire, plus Verdi and much more. (No need to restate the obvious.)
Just the other night on Mezzo TV was
Schöne Müllerin, done recently with Eschenbach. I'd pass on that in favor of earlier recordings. He was even flat in the beginning, more speaking than singing throughout, but expressive nevertheless
--pretty good for a performer of 80+ years. (He was born in 1925).
ZB
He perfected a novel and totally non -operatic way of singing songs. Everything comes from the heart. It's not about dramatic declamation or the voice beautiful.
Did anyone sing like that before? -- Erb sometimes maybe. Ferrier sometimes maybe. Cuenod and Deller and Pears sometimes maybe. Amd Hotter : surely Hotter was an inspiration for him.
But I think really FiDi finessed this style.
QuoteHe perfected a novel and totally non -operatic way of singing songs. Everything comes from the heart. It's not about dramatic declamation or the voice beautiful.
Mandryka, I don't quite get this. ??? Didn't you say before that you're inclined to the second opinion (that DFD is self-conscious and unspontaneous) - which to my mind seems to be almost the opposite of being a singer with whom 'everything comes from the heart'. In fact, I'd rather suggest with DFD, everything comes from the brain - which is his great achievement, but perhaps also his great limitation.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 20, 2010, 12:49:26 AM
I'm talking about the Rückert-Lieder on this recording
Not the recording I was thinking of.
The one I heard was an in-concert recording with LB at the piano, involving only Wunderhorn and with a soprano singer. My memory suggests that it was recorded in Vienna and Janet Baker was the soprano, but it's been far too long for me to be sure about the details beyond the first sentence of this paragraph.
Is the rest of the CD as bad? Or is it just the Ruckert Lieder that earns special oppobrium?
Edit: Digging around, this entry from Arkivmusic seems to be the one I'm thinking of--and if it is, the baritone for the Wunderhorn songs was not DFD but Walter Berry!
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=65681
The Fanfare reviewer liked the Ruckert Lieder (which I'm presuming is the same performance you're talking about) but was not overly impressed with LB's piano playing.
QuoteI've never been one of those who findthe great FD "self-concious,unspontaneous and hammy". How unfair to such a great artist!
He was not only a great lieder singer, but wonderful in opera. Unfortunately,I never got to see him on stage, but his
recorded portrayals of such characters as Wozzeck, Don Giovanni, Mathis der Maler, Hans Sachs, Doktor Faust, Mandryka in Arabella, Lear in Reimann's Lear, and many other roles are truly compelling.
He really could act with his voice,and he is said to have been a great actor onstage in opera and a riveting stage presence.
Why should this be unfair? No one denies DFDs importance, his contribution to our knowledge/appreciation of formerly almost unknown repertoire, his outstanding intelligence, etc. He may indeed be "great" in some sense (this is really a vague term), but still there are quite a few people who do not like his style - at least in some repertoire. And as far as I (as a non-native speaker) understand the word, the description of his style as "hammy" is absolutely to the point in many cases - though I guess the word has negative associations, so a neutral term might be better. Apart from this, DFD is not "great" in my book because he lacks a truly outstanding voice - though many may disagree or may find this rather unimportant. And in fact, I do not like him at all in opera, apart from Strauss.
Whether Fischer-Dieskau had a "great" voice is irrelevant as far a sI am concerned. In terms of pure voice,other baritones and singers have had more impressive purely vocal endowments.
But wht makes DFD so great is what he did with his voice.
Take Robert Merrill for example. Purely in terms of voice, Merrill had the more impressive instrument;it was certainly a more refulgent baritone voice.
But the American never even came remotely close to being as penetrating interpreter of operatic roles. Merrill never created the kind of detailed,specific characters which FD could.
A great natural instrument and flawless techniqe alone do not guarantee anything; there has to a genuine interpretive imagination and vision to achieve artistic greatness. FD had this in spades.
QuoteWhether Fischer-Dieskau had a "great" voice is irrelevant as far a sI am concerned. In terms of pure voice,other baritones and singers have had more impressive purely vocal endowments.
But wht makes DFD so great is what he did with his voice.
Take Robert Merrill for example. Purely in terms of voice, Merrill had the more impressive instrument;it was certainly a more refulgent baritone voice.
But the American never even came remotely close to being as penetrating interpreter of operatic roles. Merrill never created the kind of detailed,specific characters which FD could.
A great natural instrument and flawless techniqe alone do not guarantee anything; there has to a genuine interpretive imagination and vision to achieve artistic greatness. FD had this in spades.
Merrill wouldn't be my ideal baritone either; certainly he wasn't a great interpreter. Perhaps one can locate Merrill at one end of the singing-interpreting continuum, and DFD at the other end - this being a simplification, of course. I prefer an interpreter in the middle of that continuum. I don't like singers who lay out the meaning of a text with a trowel (if that's the phrase) - and thus turn an aria or song into a scholarly exercise in text exergesis. This is what DFD often does in my view and this is what I often find downright annoying. But neither do I like an interpreter who is completely oblivious to what the text means. My ideal (as far as song is concerned) is someone like the young Gérard Souzay (highly intelligent and extremely attractive timbre).
Quote from: Superhorn on June 21, 2010, 06:29:22 AM
But the American never even came remotely close to being as penetrating interpreter of operatic roles. Merrill never created the kind of detailed,specific characters which FD could.
What do you think of him in songs?
I just played Nacht und Traeume - first Fischer Dieskau (in the EMI Schubert Lieder on Record boxes) and then Karl Erb.
FiDi's performance is very nuanced and very expressive. You are constantly aware of the way he changes timbre, stresses consonants, phrases. All the choices are deliberate. All is deeply felt, from the heart. I certainly don't think that he sounds phoney or uninvolved.
But at the end of the day his technique is too obtrusive, his style too unspontaneous. This is a really disappointing performance.
Erb is equally deeply felt. But how much more natural Erb sounds (for all his strange timbre.) How much more simple, honest, straightforward.
I prefer Erb.
Any responses to the later album of Schumann Dichterliebe and Liederkries Op. 39 with Brendel? I love it and find it very powerful.
Interesting thread, as I too thought of DFD as a consensus great.
I have DFD singing pretty much all the lieder of Schubert, Brahms and Wolf and have no complaints.
Quote from: Superhorn on June 20, 2010, 05:54:02 AM
He really could act with his voice
Maybe.
I think he is very very good in songs which require acting -- like Der Erlkönig and Der Zwerg.
But he sometimes acts when the song doesn't need funny voices or melodrama: even when the song needs something simpler and deeper. Example: Nacht und Traeume.
Now some people will think that's all to the good. I can imagine that if you like Laurence Olivier in Hamlet or Richard 3 you will think FiDi's Schubert is fantastic.
But if you prefer a less stagey, more natural, style, then FiDi doesn't always suit.
Mandryka - a fellow Erb fan! I know that FiDi N&T, it is not so bad, but not it either. The young Souzay comes close to perfection in this very difficult song (which may have been Beckett's favourite - there's a wonderful wordless late play based on it which I saw on German TV years ago, very moving.) Another Erb recording to play and measure other performances by is "Nachtstück" (a radio recording I have on LP, haven't seen it on CD) - it immediately sends the much-touted Fritz Wunderlich to the trash bin. I don't know FiDi's version of this but I cannot imagine it being any great shakes. Prégardien is pretty good, too - I think of him as the modern intellectual's Erb, but lacking the transcendent apocalyptic quality.
By the way, I like Olivier in Shakespeare but do not think FiDi is fantastic, though he is great fun on video with Richter. But I wouldn't choose to listen to Olivier - only to see & hear him.
Quote from: Verena on June 21, 2010, 08:26:40 AM
I don't like singers who lay out the meaning of a text with a trowel (if that's the phrase) - and thus turn an aria or song into a scholarly exercise in text exergesis. This is what DFD often does in my view and this is what I often find downright annoying.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 21, 2010, 08:33:42 AM
FiDi's performance is very nuanced and very expressive. You are constantly aware of the way he changes timbre, stresses consonants, phrases. All the choices are deliberate. All is deeply felt, from the heart. I certainly don't think that he sounds phoney or uninvolved.
But at the end of the day his technique is too obtrusive, his style too unspontaneous. This is a really disappointing performance.
I must say that those of us who are sensible to the miniature poetic art of the lieder and the melodies are very fortunate to have so many interpreters who gave, and still give, their talent to these small but precious gems. And it was never easy, for any singer in any time, to expose himself to the intensity and nakedness of this unique music form. Those who had the courage to do it were usually the very fine and most sensible artists.
I already expressed before my recognition and respect to DFD as one of the major singers of our time. But I also confessed my personal (un)sensibility to what I may resume as his overemphatic articulation or over characterization, particularly in his mature artistic years. Obviously, this is not a "personal" criticism to DFD and I always feel it may sound as a pedantic or arrogant attitude. Nevertheless, it is a sincere one. And my personal preference for a less "oversophisticated" interpretation does not apply only to DFD but to many other musical interpreters (or even other artistic expressions).
In this more global sense I very much agree with the ideas brilliantly expressed in the famous essay of Roland Barthes "Le grain de la voix" (Seuil 1972). For me it is one of the most penetrating analyses on singing and interpretation. RB stresses the importance of the "grain" as one of the most interesting and distinctive elements of the voice, of the singing character and even of all musical or artistic interpretation. Barthes's "grain" is not only the color of the voice but the peculiar way each singer translates his inner self through the "mixing" of the music with the word. Barthes uses DFD "interpretation style" as a model and he compares it to Charles Panzéra, as two contrasting examples.
To illustrate what I also feel is my "sensibility objection" to DFD's singing "style", I will use some illustrating excerpts from RB's "Le grain de la voix" (please forgive me for my poor English translation).
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Edsheldee/roland_barthes.jpg)
"... The 'grain' of the voice is not, or not only, the timbre. It means the friction between the music and the other element – the language (not the meaning). ... The 'grain' is the body's individual expression through the singing voice. ... Some artists have a 'grain' that others, however famous, may have not.
... As a singer FD is an absolutely faultless artist. Everything in the structure (semantic and lyrical) is respected. However nothing seduces us, nothing carries us to the delight. It is like an over-expressive art – the wording is dramatic and his breathing stops, oppressions and releases act like passion earthquakes. ... With FD I believe I only listen to his lungs, never his tongue, the glottis, the teeth, the mouth or the nose. On the contrary, all the art of Panzéra is in the letters and not in the breath – we listen to his phrasing and not to his breathing. ...
... FD is an almost absolute King of the record of singing. He recorded everything. If you love Schubert and you don't love FD, Schubert is forbidden to you – an example of the positive censorship that without any criticism whatsoever has dominated the mass culture. Perhaps his art – expressive, dramatic, emotionally transparent, carried by a voice without 'grain', without significant weight, responds well to the needs of the "culture moyenne"; a culture brought by the generalization of listeners and the disappearance of the 'amateur' performers. ... "
(http://www.lpcd.de/18/K9599_01.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E0CG9P52L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I have bought a pretty cheap box of recordings Fischer Dieskau recently. It's a Membran box and I don't know weather it is accessable in English countries ( at least at this price). These are old recordings from the 50es but some are very enjoyable.
I mean this box:
(http://www.membran.net/images/16669_232763_front.jpg)
10 CDs, well filled for a price of 12 Euros. I didn't enjoy much the opera arias, but for example his Winterreise ( the first one to be recorded). The sound is not glorious but the singing of the very young Fischer Dieskau appears to me less "obtrusevely characterized" than some of his later recordings. Winterreise, Die schöne Müllerin and other Schubert songs are included, as is Schumann, Brahms, Wolf and others. I cannot claim to have heard everything but at this price the box was a steal - although old recordings.
Regards
Martin
I must say that I don't have the reaction to DFD of some of the other posters. To me, the typical lieder singing problem is of too
little expressivity, so if DFD swings the other way, it's an acceptable antidote.
Quote from: Martin Lind on June 22, 2010, 04:08:55 AM
The sound is not glorious but the singing of the very young Fischer Dieskau appears to me less "obtrusevely characterized" than some of his later recordings. Winterreise, Die schöne Müllerin and other Schubert songs are included, as is Schumann, Brahms, Wolff and others. I cannot claim to have heard everything but at this price the box was a steal - although old recordings.
Martin - I have a CD of DFD doing Schumann lieder, including the Op. 35 Kerner Lieder, recorded in the mid 50s with Gunther Weissenborn which I just love, despite its low-budget provenance. Very expressive but a little less emphatic than the later recordings. Includes a terrific performance of "Talismane" from the Op. 25 set. I also have Ian Bostridge (I am big fan of IB) doing the same song on the Hyperion set and DFD's accentuated expressivity makes for a much richer, more impressive and imposing interpretation of a great song.
ccar - Thanks for the post. I think Barthes' description of "grain" is too imprecise to have any meaning for me and don't like the way he tries to universalize his own reaction to DFD by switching to "us" (However nothing seduces us, nothing carries us to the delight.). I have been delighted and moved by DFD's singing. It sounds like French grousing about those Krauts. ;D
I take it that you are strongly recommending the Panzera recording?
I forgot, I also have DFD singing all of Schumann lieder and love it.
Quote from: cosmicj on June 22, 2010, 04:27:51 AM
Martin - I have a CD of DFD doing Schumann lieder, including the Op. 35 Kerner Lieder, recorded in the mid 50s with Gunther Weissenborn which I just love, despite its low-budget provenance. Very expressive but a little less emphatic than the later recordings. .
Yes, you've put your finger on the heart of the matter.
The problem isn't expression -- like you, I think that's a good thing.
The problem is that he is all too often over emphatic. I don't know what word corresponds to Ccars translation "over expresive", but I take it that this is part of Barthe's meaning.
Another part of Barthe's meaning seems to be that with DFD you are too conscious of his technique -- his breathing etc. You're to often aware that here is a good singer skillfully using techniques to entertain and alure.
With greater song singers -- Aksel Schiotz for example, or Karl Erb, or Peter Pears, or Lotte Lehmann or Heinrich Schlusnus or indeed Gérard Souzay, it's the words, the poem, the melody which moves you. Not the voice.
Quote from: mjwal on June 21, 2010, 10:23:49 AM
Mandryka - a fellow Erb fan! I know that FiDi N&T, it is not so bad, but not it either. The young Souzay comes close to perfection in this very difficult song (which may have been Beckett's favourite - there's a wonderful wordless late play based on it which I saw on German TV years ago, very moving.) Another Erb recording to play and measure other performances by is "Nachtstück" (a radio recording I have on LP, haven't seen it on CD) - it immediately sends the much-touted Fritz Wunderlich to the trash bin. I don't know FiDi's version of this but I cannot imagine it being any great shakes. Prégardien is pretty good, too - I think of him as the modern intellectual's Erb, but lacking the transcendent apocalyptic quality.
By the way, I like Olivier in Shakespeare but do not think FiDi is fantastic, though he is great fun on video with Richter. But I wouldn't choose to listen to Olivier - only to see & hear him.
Erb's Nachtstück-- once heard, never forgotten. Like his Littanei and Nun wandre Maria.
He has tremendous purity, even if the voice is a bit unsteady.
And thanks for reminding of Souzays N&T. Exquisite timbre. Warm and mellow. Intense. Very good.
How have I managed to miss this thread? Interesting to read right through it though, thanks folks.
I tend to prefer his earlier recordings and have suggested elsewhere that his musicmaking inspires more admiration than affection.
Here is an example of a recording from 1952.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-aEWM9Xvgg
I think this is Bach singing of the very highest quality. He does not break the line up and even taking a breath is a dramatic gesture. The voice itself is at its most beautiful. I don't know of any other performance of this aria that I would put along side it. I think there is an ideal balance between expressiveness and integration of words and music, with no superfluous gestures.
I enjoy a number of the recordings, Mahler songs included also DLvDE, many of which have been held up as 'best of'...also his Hans Sachs in Meistersingers. But equally, I have been left cold if not alienated during some performances; where the detail draws attention to itself. I also feel that he was basically unsuited to Italian Opera, the best I know of is his Posa in Don Carlos, but more usually, it somehow sounds alien, for example his Macbeth. Simply not at all an Italianate sound or idiomatic relish for the language.
BTW: a page or so back there was mention of a Mahler Wunderhorn recording. That was with Schwartzkopf and Szell and I think it is excellent. If it is thought that he adopts a hectoring approach here and there, then compare with the partner to Janet Baker on the Wyn Morris version, Geraint Evans, who barks gruffly through several songs and makes DFD sound silken by comparison.
Now, try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_6KPYEFe7k&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=36
A highly dramatic song by Wolf.....masterful or overdone? What do folk think.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 12:30:44 AM
How have I managed to miss this thread?
Being abroad?
I can see why you might think this is overdone - I'm not particularly fond of the song even. On the other hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sFV8phOT6g&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRox_cBwmh4&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&index=34&playnext=2
Not too bad IMO...
Both of those are beautiful performances and that Wolf song is my favourite. As to the performance of Der Feuerreiter, from memory, the markings encourage an extreme approach. I wonder if folk do feel it to be too operatic.
Here is Gura, not one bit less dramatic or wild, if anything rather more in danger of getting out of control at certain points. I prefer Gura to DFD in the second half of the song, more trance-like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmzErAgHMOU
And Fassbaender, predictably hyper-expressive and often a partner to DFD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9AS0cft0xo&feature=related
Mike
Quote from: ccar on June 21, 2010, 04:42:04 PM
In this more global sense I very much agree with the ideas brilliantly expressed in the famous essay of Roland Barthes "Le grain de la voix" (Seuil 1972).
"... The 'grain' of the voice is not, or not only, the timbre. . . . we listen to his phrasing and not to his breathing. ...... FD is an almost absolute King of the record of singing. . . . a culture brought by the generalization of listeners and the disappearance of the 'amateur' performers. ... "
I must be going blind, but I just can't see the passage you translated (I can see a discussion of Panzéra in the interview "Les Fantômes de l'Opéra")
I'm going to go crazy if I don't find it – which page is it on?
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 12:30:44 AM
I also feel that he was basically unsuited to Italian Opera, the best I know of is his Posa in Don Carlos, but more usually, it somehow sounds alien, for example his Macbeth. Simply not at all an Italianate sound or idiomatic relish for the language.
BTW: a page or so back there was mention of a Mahler Wunderhorn recording. That was with Schwartzkopf and Szell and I think it is excellent. If it is thought that he adopts a hectoring approach here and there, then compare with the partner to Janet Baker on the Wyn Morris version, Geraint Evans, who barks gruffly through several songs and makes DFD sound silken by comparison.
In fact, he recorded the complete Wunderhorn cycle, without a female partner, twice--both time, I believe, with Barenboim, once as pianist and the other time conducting the BPO. I have the orchestral version, which was coupled with the Wayfarer songs.
As to DFD singing Posa, the liner notes to my copy of the Fricsay recording of the Magic Flute (in which DFD sang Papageno) contain an extensive passage from DFD's memoirs. Per the liner notes, Posa was his stage debut (Berlin, 1948). Fricsay coached him extensively on the acting side of the role as well the musical side. Maybe that's why he was better in that role than in others.
Thanks for the background info...someone further back suggested Baker as his partner in the Wunderhorn songs. I have never heard his solo efforts in those songs. I assume there were one or two he did not record?
There are more of the songs than are in the usual collection. I have heard recitals that leave some out and substitute others. I think I have a Baker disc of early Mahler song settings that gave me a few pieces I have not heard before.
Mike
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 07:53:40 AM
Thanks for the background info...someone further back suggested Baker as his partner in the Wunderhorn songs. I have never heard his solo efforts in those songs. I assume there were one or two he did not record?
There are more of the songs than are in the usual collection. I have heard recitals that leave some out and substitute others. I think I have a Baker disc of early Mahler song settings that gave me a few pieces I have not heard before.
Mike
That was me, I think. If you look, I 'fessed up to getting my memory screwed up. The actual recording turned out to be a Berry-Ludwig-Bernstein (piano) recording.
The orchestral DFD/Barenboim cycle contains the same twelve songs that are on the Szell cycle with Schwarzkopf. There are some Wunderhorn songs that Mahler did not orchestrate but simply left in the piano versions (not sure how many there are of those); I don't know if DFD recorded those in his piano cycle.
Plus there are the non-Wunderhorn songs ("Songs from Youth" and another set I don't remember the title of) he did early on. Gerharer's recent CD includes some of these, I think, as well as some of the Wunderhorn piano songs, the Wayfarer songs in their piano version, and the Ruckert Lieder in their piano versions (and ends with Urlicht for baritone and piano)--but the liner notes are somewhat confusing as to which were actually Wunderhorn songs and which were not.
Yes, I got similarily confuses as to which songs come from the Wunderhorn collection. Thanks for the information.
Mike
Quote from: Mandryka on June 26, 2010, 06:18:04 AM
I must be going blind, but I just can't see the passage you translated (I can see a discussion of Panzéra in the interview "Les Fantômes de l'Opéra")
I'm going to go crazy if I don't find it – which page is it on?
Ah -- I see. The essay "Le Grain de la Voix" is not part of the book
Le Grain de la Voix (Seuil 1981) . Rather it is part of the collection
L'Obvie et l'obtus (Seuil 1992)
OMG! This is like being an undergraduate again.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 27, 2010, 06:14:47 AM
Ah -- I see. The essay "Le Grain de la Voix" is not part of the book Le Grain de la Voix (Seuil 1981) . Rather it is part of the collection L'Obvie et l'obtus (Seuil 1992)
OMG! This is like being an undergraduate again.
Sorry I missed your question before.
As you already noticed the essay it is not in the book with the same title.
The original essay "le grain de la voix" was published in November 1972 in a french musical journal "Musique en jeu" and now it can only be found reprinted in Roland Barthes's anthologies or collections. Mine is in the "Oeuvres Completes - tome II - pp 1436-42 - Seuil 1994".
Unfortunately I don't Know of any english translation.
Quote from: ccar on June 21, 2010, 04:42:04 PM
In this more global sense I very much agree with the ideas brilliantly expressed in the famous essay of Roland Barthes "Le grain de la voix" (Seuil 1972). For me it is one of the most penetrating analyses on singing and interpretation. RB stresses the importance of the "grain" as one of the most interesting and distinctive elements of the voice, of the singing character and even of all musical or artistic interpretation. Barthes's "grain" is not only the color of the voice but the peculiar way each singer translates his inner self through the "mixing" of the music with the word. Barthes uses DFD "interpretation style" as a model and he compares it to Charles Panzéra, as two contrasting examples.
To illustrate what I also feel is my "sensibility objection" to DFD's singing "style", I will use some illustrating excerpts from RB's "Le grain de la voix" (please forgive me for my poor English translation).
"... The 'grain' of the voice is not, or not only, the timbre. It means the friction between the music and the other element – the language (not the meaning). ... The 'grain' is the body's individual expression through the singing voice. ... Some artists have a 'grain' that others, however famous, may have not.
... As a singer FD is an absolutely faultless artist. Everything in the structure (semantic and lyrical) is respected. However nothing seduces us, nothing carries us to the delight. It is like an over-expressive art – the wording is dramatic and his breathing stops, oppressions and releases act like passion earthquakes. ... With FD I believe I only listen to his lungs, never his tongue, the glottis, the teeth, the mouth or the nose. On the contrary, all the art of Panzéra is in the letters and not in the breath – we listen to his phrasing and not to his breathing. ...
... FD is an almost absolute King of the record of singing. He recorded everything. If you love Schubert and you don't love FD, Schubert is forbidden to you – an example of the positive censorship that without any criticism whatsoever has dominated the mass culture. Perhaps his art – expressive, dramatic, emotionally transparent, carried by a voice without 'grain', without significant weight, responds well to the needs of the "culture moyenne"; a culture brought by the generalization of listeners and the disappearance of the 'amateur' performers. ... "
When I first read here about the "grain of the voice" I was not sure what was meant. In fact, I am still a bit confused, so to dispel that somewhat went to the dictionary to get a good translation of "grain". If this means what the Italians regard as the core of the sound, or the center, I think it is a bit unfair to say that FD doesn't have one. It's like saying a 'person without a shadow'.
He had plenty of weight to his voice in his earlier career as seen in "Der Erlkönig", even though his voice is of the more lyrical variety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e40Mm8baD7A
I don't agree at all his art (re: the above example) is "over expressive". How does this contradiction in terms "fail to move"?
Describing singing is at times like walking in quicksand, the more metaphors one uses, the deeper in mud one sinks.
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 30, 2010, 09:38:58 AM
He had plenty of weight to his voice in his earlier career as seen in "Der Erlkönig", even though his voice is of the more lyrical variety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e40Mm8baD7A
He's very good in dramatic Schubert -- does anyone here want to say that he does a pretty good Erlkönig -- funny voices and all?
The problem is in the less melodramatic songs -- my example was Nacht und Traeume.
I just listened to a whole pile of "Der Wegweiser" recordings: FD in Prades and Huesch (1933), Hotter/Moore, Schreier/Richter. I really didn't enjoy FD-- over the top, even ugly. Even Huesch (who is also quite dramatic) was more pleasing -- more authentic.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 30, 2010, 09:38:58 AM
When I first read here about the "grain of the voice" I was not sure what was meant. In fact, I am still a bit confused, so to dispel that somewhat went to the dictionary to get a good translation of "grain". If this means what the Italians regard as the core of the sound, or the center, I think it is a bit unfair to say that FD doesn't have one. It's like saying a 'person without a shadow'.
Or like saying a person without soul maybe.
I have read the essay now --grain is a complex idea and Barthes does try to spell it out. There is quite an extended contrast between FD and Panzéra – à propos the way they express consonants and the way they control the breath.
I just listened to Panzéra in Erlkönig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc3nGKksrzA&feature=related
Yes, there is a vulnerability and focus that FD doesn't seem to have in abundance. Maybe it's really the spectrum of natural overtones in the voice that can't be changed, or grain...whatever...je ne sais quoi...
The following L'Invitation Au Voyage is incroyable and pianist is excellent, too...seems like his wife...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78sK4f86_8M&feature=related
ZB
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 12:30:44 AM
I also feel that he was basically unsuited to Italian Opera, the best I know of is his Posa in Don Carlos, but more usually, it somehow sounds alien, for example his Macbeth. Simply not at all an Italianate sound or idiomatic relish for the language.
On the subject of FD and Italian opera, there was a rather long film recently on Mezzo TV about his life that showed him in his early days after the war singing such roles in German, fairly common back then anyway. As an example of his later teaching career, he was coaching Varady, his wife, in the rather heavy aria "Morro, ma prima in grazia" from
Ballo. She was not up to it at all, a lightweight voice anyway, and he was out of it as well.
Quote from: knight on June 26, 2010, 12:30:44 AM
Now, try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_6KPYEFe7k&feature=PlayList&p=9983DAB86E655237&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=36
A highly dramatic song by Wolf.....masterful or overdone? What do folk think.
Mike
Scary, I'd say, more
sprech than
gesang. Also I would have liked to hear more piano that carries a lot of expression here.
ZB
Well, it is scary - uncanny - unheimlich, and he does get every ounce of suggestion out of Mörike's magnificently eery verses. There is a version with Richter where the piano part is more effective. If you want a better sung "Feuerreiter" you must listen to the old Helge Roswaenge version, a vocal classic among Wolf recordings.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 30, 2010, 10:50:53 PM
The following L'Invitation Au Voyage is incroyable and pianist is excellent, too...seems like his wife...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78sK4f86_8M&feature=related
ZB
Indeed.
My wife wants more Dietrich Ficher-Dieskau, any advice on decent collections of his work?
Quote from: nesf on February 14, 2012, 03:36:22 AM
My wife wants more Dietrich Ficher-Dieskau, any advice on decent collections of his work?
What do you already have? Are you looking for a collection of songs? Arias? Opera? This one came out not too long ago - an 11 CD set from EMI. It's on my wishlist, but I have other priorities. Still, not a bad price for what you get. Here are the contents: http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/85461/Dietrich_Fischer-Dieskau:_The_Great_EMI_Recordings.htm (http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/85461/Dietrich_Fischer-Dieskau:_The_Great_EMI_Recordings.htm).
[asin]B00369K29Q[/asin]
If you are looking for something different, there are numerous collections, so let us know. DG have a number of choices too, including this (Schubert only, see track listing in first Amazon review):
[asin]B003CF0XDE[/asin]
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 14, 2012, 03:54:55 AM
What do you already have? Are you looking for a collection of songs? Arias? Opera? This one came out not too long ago - an 11 CD set from EMI. It's on my wishlist, but I have other priorities. Still, not a bad price for what you get. Here are the contents: http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/85461/Dietrich_Fischer-Dieskau:_The_Great_EMI_Recordings.htm (http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/85461/Dietrich_Fischer-Dieskau:_The_Great_EMI_Recordings.htm).
[asin]B00369K29Q[/asin]
If you are looking for something different, there are numerous collections, so let us know. DG have a number of choices too, including this (Schubert only, see track listing in first Amazon review):
[asin]B003CF0XDE[/asin]
I have a "Best of" 2 CD set from EMI with some Schubert, Brahms and Bach on it. I was looking at that 11CD EMI set alright as a possibility. I was curious if there was better out there. Sorry, I should have had more details in my question, just still sedated after last night's sedative (I don't take them very often for this reason).
Edit: My wife likes the Lieder but would not be opposed to some Opera mixed in. So that EMI set looks good.
Quote from: nesf on February 14, 2012, 03:58:00 AM
I have a "Best of" 2 CD set from EMI with some Schubert, Brahms and Bach on it. I was looking at that 11CD EMI set alright as a possibility. I was curious if there was better out there. Sorry, I should have had more details in my question, just still sedated after last night's sedative (I don't take them very often for this reason).
The set with 3 Schubert song cycles IMO is a very good start, people who like FiDi (like me) mostly speak highly of these recordings (like me).
I would not recommend his recording of the complete Schubert songs, although executed on a good level it gets quite boring after a while.
I don't know much about collections, since my FiDi acquisitions mainly date from older times, but in opera I can recommend e. g. his Rigoletto under Kubelik, a very nice recording.
If you are more hard-core you can also try his Schwanengesang with Brendel, musically it is awesome, but the voice is far beyond its prime ...
If you are interested in more I can have a closer look at my collection.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 14, 2012, 03:54:55 AM
If you are looking for something different, there are numerous collections, so let us know. DG have a number of choices too, including this (Schubert only, see track listing in first Amazon review):
[asin]B003CF0XDE[/asin]
The singing on here is consistently superb but it's ALOT of music from one composer.
Quote from: Sadko on February 14, 2012, 04:06:51 AM
The set with 3 Schubert song cycles IMO is a very good start, people who like FiDi (like me) mostly speak highly of these recordings (like me).
I would not recommend his recording of the complete Schubert songs, although executed on a good level it gets quite boring after a while.
I don't know much about collections, since my FiDi acquisitions mainly date from older times, but in opera I can recommend e. g. his Rigoletto under Kubelik, a very nice recording.
If you are more hard-core you can also try his Schwanengesang with Brendel, musically it is awesome, but the voice is far beyond its prime ...
If you are interested in more I can have a closer look at my collection.
Yes, what I'm interested in is which recordings catch him in his prime versus those he did later where his voice wouldn't have been as good (though, still I imagine excellent). I'm completely new to this so I've no idea where to start looking and which label he had during his better years etc.
Quote from: nesf on February 14, 2012, 04:17:44 AM
Yes, what I'm interested in is which recordings catch him in his prime versus those he did later where his voice wouldn't have been as good (though, still I imagine excellent). I'm completely new to this so I've no idea where to start looking and which label he had during his better years etc.
Deutsche Grammophon was his label in the prime period.
I have to leave now, will look into it later (if you are not flooded with other recommendations by then :) )
Quote from: Sadko on February 14, 2012, 04:21:14 AM
Deutsche Grammophon was his label in the prime period.
The EMI set covers the '50's to the 70's, so I don't think one is necessarily worse than the other on that account.
The 3fer you mentioned earlier is good, and can understand one not wanting the whole 21 Schubert set (although I find the songs so good, that I bet it doesn't become that tiresome). Alternatively, there is the Hyperion Schubert box of complete songs that I think is heavenly (well thought out programs, a mix of singers, many different singers, etc). I think the EMI box is good in that you can always go more complete later, but you get a lot of good stuff now.
DFD released numerous single discs or sets as well, so one can always go that way. His Mahler Das Lied von der Erde with Bernstein is quite good (if you don't mind the orchestra). Brilliant had released a set of his Brhams Lieder that are excellent, but that seems to be OOP. I enjoy his Deutsche Volkslieder (Brahms) with Schwarzkopf immensely.
Is this the complete one that's mentioned on this page (21 CDs)?
[asin]B000AYQCIK[/asin]
My wife's reaction to "ALOT of music by one composer": But it's Schubert... :D
Quote
My wife's reaction to "ALOT of music by one composer": But it's Schubert... :D
She's a smart woman. :)
Quote from: nesf on February 14, 2012, 07:58:48 AM
My wife's reaction to "ALOT of music by one composer": But it's Schubert... :D
That's a marriage that's going to last! ;D
Quote from: nesf on February 14, 2012, 03:36:22 AM
My wife wants more Dietrich Ficher-Dieskau, any advice on decent collections of his work?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WCT2HAgnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (he's very funny in this)
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/654160.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414TIl06dyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (If you don't want a DVD)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4182Y9Z7XNL._AA115_.jpg) (Unforgettable when he sings in the final movement of Beethoven 9)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XhVg6aSQL._AA115_.jpg) Very good Wolfram
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/616Z8GWGSNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OXXztT%2BEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (for the Liederkreis)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519HYV35hXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (Bernstein at the piano -- it has grown on me recently: I used to realy find it totally OTT.)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kj9vcIuxL._AA300_.jpg) (You also need the cantata Christ Lag In Todesbanden, with Richter)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D50M9VV0L._AA115_.jpg)
Quote from: nesf on February 14, 2012, 07:58:48 AM
Is this the complete one that's mentioned on this page (21 CDs)?
[asin]B000AYQCIK[/asin]
My wife's reaction to "ALOT of music by one composer": But it's Schubert... :D
It appears to be the same. But the other one is half the price.
It is a lot, but if you like it, then it it's a lot of pleasure! :)
Quote from: Mandryka on February 14, 2012, 10:59:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WCT2HAgnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (he's very funny in this)
That is a fine DVD recommendation. The visuals are not always to my liking, but who cares when the singing is so good.
I looked at my collection, and I picked these Fischer-Dieskau recordings as especially interesting - as a whole, not necessarily just because of Fischer-Dieskau.
Britten: War Requiem (Britten)
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1271/11716399.jpg)
Verdi: Rigoletto (Kubelik)
(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9384/33395992.jpg)
Wagner: Lohengrin (Kempe)
(http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/9496/74269037.jpg)
Schumann: Faust-Szenen (Britten)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6335/83975563.jpg)
Mozart: Zauberflöte (Böhm)
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2379/81795348.jpg)
Brahms: Deutsche Volkslieder (Fischer-Dieskau/Schwarzkopf)
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2248/63178141.jpg)
Brahms: Liebesliederwalzer (Mathis, Fassbaender, Schreier, Fischer-Dieskau, Engel, Sawallisch)
(http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4228/85732223.jpg)
I actually don't remember exactly how I liked this one, it is so long ago I listened:
Busoni: Dr. Faustus
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4329/45444150.jpg)
And Mandryka's list I also like - as far as I know the recordings, it gives me a few ideas to explore further myself.
Thank you all for your recommendations!
Quote from: Sadko on February 14, 2012, 01:24:12 PM
Brahms: Deutsche Volkslieder (Fischer-Dieskau/Schwarzkopf)
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2248/63178141.jpg)
That now looks like this:
[asin]B0000CE7FL[/asin]
I heard sad news on the radio today:
Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau has died today, short before his 87th birthday.