Needing reccomendations on Bartok's String Quartets. I'm looking for a full set, with plenty of bite where needed (for instance, the 4th).
Thanks so much in advance for any help.
I don't know about bite, but if you need contrapuntal perfection, get the Tokyo on DG. For bite, get the Julliard on Sony.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 10, 2010, 04:09:29 PM
I don't know about bite, but if you need contrapuntal perfection, get the Tokyo on DG. For bite, get the Julliard on Sony.
You know, I've read that same opinion about the Tokyo from several sources. I've also read that the Tokyo is tops, period.
They are the best for me, but of course, you have to make your own mind. Just make sure its the set on DG, not the one on RCA. The set tends to go out of print rather often, but it should be available on P2P, probably on emule.
Overall Andy, I'd go with the Emerson SQ. Absolutely fantastic!!
However, my favorite performance of the 4th quartet (my personal favorite) is by Takacs. It's smoking! :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513wIvpzQvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
has a good deal of bite to it
The 1963 Juilliard recordings (http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Julliard-String-Quartet-Bart%C3%B3k/dp/B000P6RB8) are the classic set. The link is to the only international release of the 1963 set that I'm aware of, despite the fact that the slipcover photo is not of the 1963 personnel.
I wish I could insert images like others do - I am regrettably incompetent in this field :-[
You can get the Juilliard on Amazon.de for between 13 and 30 €. I have the CBS LPs, but can only play them in the summer, so if I listen to Bartók it's the Tokyo or Emerson I choose (both DG - I prefer the latter). I would like to hear the Vegh, since the Vegh and the Hungarian Qts are my favourites in late Beethoven. I very much like the live #3, 5 and 6 by the latter on that M&A box. I got to know the Bartók quartets with the Fine Arts Quartet on Saga LPs, which I no longer have but hold in fond memory.
Quote from: Daverz on September 11, 2010, 12:07:22 AM
The 1963 Juilliard recordings (http://www.amazon.com/Bartok-Julliard-String-Quartet-Bart%C3%B3k/dp/B000P6RB8) are the classic set. The link is to the only international release of the 1963 set that I'm aware of, despite the fact that the slipcover photo is not of the 1963 personnel.
Agreed: and check out their intonation of the quarter-tones in the Sixth Quartet, the third movement.
Quote from: mjwal on September 11, 2010, 03:35:44 AM
I wish I could insert images like others do - I am regrettable incompetent in this field :-[
...... I would like to hear the Vegh, since the Vegh and the Hungarian Qts are my favourites in late Beethoven....
Mjwal - easy to insert images - but now I'm curious about the
Vegh - Amazon has 2 offerings, i.e. a 1954 'mono' recording on 2 discs & another box on 3 discs - not sure about the latter's recording date(s)?
For myself, I own the
Emerson set and an inexpensive one w/ the
Keller Quartet (image below) - excellent review on the latter HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Apr06/Bartok_Quartets_2564626862.htm) - :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41L3lOkel-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GbVIzWvtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N3ZFBqXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
One of the things that I find fascinating about Bartok's music is the way he often deviates from the standard major and minor modes.
It's funny: I first encountered this deviation in the music of bands like Slayer, who admitted that they didn't know exactly what they were doing when they mixed up major and minor, they wrote mostly by ear.
Anyhoo, thanks so much for all the recomendations. I think I'm going to ultimately grab the Tokyo and the Emerson for now, and wait for a good deal on the classic Juillard.
Easy - but how?
That's the old and the new Vegh. I don't know which one to go for either - they were technically at their best in the earlier recording, I believe.
I have done a little test with the recordings I have at my disposal of the 5th quartet, which I regard as the greatest of the 20th century. I listened to the first movement: with its extremes of force and lightly dancing melos, it should be able to serve synecdochically for the whole set.
I started with the LP of the Juilliards: very bright-toned, acidulous even, lacking in oomph from the bottom to my ears. After the sharply dramatic but not very powerful statement of the opening theme (1st subject?) and the little dancing bridge before the repeat of the opening, the folkloristic second subject is almost prissily precise but uninvolved. Later on there are some incredibly well managed soft but clear pizzicati. Perfectly played - but almost more like Stravinsky. Perhaps the CD remastering has given the sound more body and colour? The live recording by the Hungarians, by contrast, slashes into the work with almost doomy power: I think immediately of "There is a tide in the affairs of men/ That, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune" - or catastrophe, of course. The Hungarians go with that flood, and not even the relative relaxation of the second subject holds them up: where the Juilliards contrast, they plead passionately. The recording is older and mono, of course, but this is much more in your face, though subtle touches (plinks and plonks) tend to go under a bit. The Tokyo team offer power, depth, contrast and great colouristic effects - they are far better recorded than the aforementioned, they may have slightly less idiomatic feeling than the Hungarians but they are more interested in rhythmic and timbral differentiation. Interestingly, the Emerson tend to replicate the Juilliard overriding concern with precision, but with a much better recording - and their slashing chords with the repetition of the main theme are superbly biting. I admire them - they seem almost to dissect the score, though without skimping on expression - but want to go on listening to the Tokyo or Hungarian quartets. I would like to hear a modern performance that picks up the interpretative stance of the Hungarians, though.
P.S. I would like to point out that Zóltan Székely, the leader of the Hungarian Quartet, was the violinist at the premiere of Bartók's Violin Concerto (conducted by Mengelberg), one of the really significant recorded documents of the 20th century. If you don't know it: run, don't walk!
The later Vegh recording- the one with the architectural photo on the cover- was recorded in 1972. I havent heard the earlier mono one, so can't compare.
For "bite" I like the Takacs discs.
I have not listened to the complete cycle yet, but from what I have heard nothing beats this one:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5b/1b/ba2b62e89da0994a01b26110.L._AA300_.jpg)
My one reservation is sound quality. The circa 1960 recording is too bright, lacks warmth, as is typical of some DG recordings of that era. Also, "edge" is not the characteristic that they emphasize, so it might not be the one you are looking for.
Quote from: david-jw on September 11, 2010, 05:38:16 AMFor "bite" I like the Takacs discs.
Which Takacs recording?
There is no definitive set, but the Emerson have never been better than in this repertoire; the Vegh stereo set, while not up to the best sets technically, has a sound that no other sets produce (the mono set just is not as good); and the Takacs Decca set has plenty of polish and ruggedness in equal measure. The Tokyo DG set sounds more pointed, if you will, but there's something I can't quite place my finger in when listening to this set - it sounds a bit strange. For the Juilliard, I have the second and third sets, and have heard the Fourth from the 1940s cycles, and based on that, I'd say go for the earliest cycle. If that's not available, the second cycle is the better of the later two cycles. The Hungarian Quartet on DG are quite fine, especially in the earlier quartets; the Hagen are even more pointed than the Tokyo and more technically polished and intense than the Emerson, but something goes missing; and the recent Belcea set is good as well, and nicely fiery in some places. Do stay away from the Pederecki Quartet unless you like listening to Bartok through a somewhat Brahmsian filter.
Forced to pick just one, I'd say the Takacs on Decca.
Looks like I'm going to be right in grabbing the Emerson for now. Plus, the price is right.
What about Tatrai -- with all their grey shading?
I enjoyed them in the 3rd quite recently. But then, because of this discussion, listened to them in the 3rd movement of the 6th. I thought was much flatter compared with Juilliards 1960s.
Quote from: Todd on September 11, 2010, 06:20:37 AM
Which Takacs recording?
Yes it was the Decca recording I meant :)
It's funny, reading this thread, to reflect on how the reputation of recordings changes.
When the Emerson set was released (1988 I think), it got lots of ecstatic reviews. Some years later, it was regularly trashed on forums like this. Now, it's being widely praised again.
As for me, I've had the set for over 10 years and have been generally happy with it - but then I have no other sets to compare it to.
I've always been a big fan of the Takacs (Decca) with their wide dynamic range and wonderful color, without sacrificing an ounce of intensity (and bite).
The Emersons score in the bite department and have wonderful insight.
The stereo Vegh in this company doesn't have all that much bite but makes up for it in homespun warmth, if anyone's after that (they take three discs).
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 11, 2010, 08:04:06 PM
I've always been a big fan of the Takacs (Decca) with their wide dynamic range and wonderful color, without sacrificing an ounce of intensity (and bite).
The stereo Vegh in this company doesn't have all that much bite but makes up for it in homespun warmth, if anyone's after that (they take three discs).
Thanks, Don, saved me some typing! I strongly second every word here.
The Hungarian QT on DG is my current favorite, though. I have only heard it once, but it blew me away.
Quote from: George on September 12, 2010, 07:51:05 AM
The Hungarian QT on DG is my current favorite, though. I have only heard it once, but it blew me away.
Mine too. I "grew up" on them.
Quote from: George on September 12, 2010, 07:51:05 AMThe Hungarian QT on DG is my current favorite, though. I have only heard it once, but it blew me away.
I agree, I suggested that one a few posts back. The Takacs didn't grab me, but I originally know this music from the Emerson Quartet recording, which I continue to enjoy.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 12, 2010, 07:53:09 AM
I agree, I suggested that one a few posts back. The Takacs didn't grab me, but I originally know this music from the Emerson Quartet recording, which I continue to enjoy.
I went with the Emerson, both for financial reasons as well as having read so many glowing reviews. I'd hesitated with them at first, because I'm very ambivalent toward alot of their output, mostly their hit and miss Beethoven Late SQs. But mostly I've heard raves in regard to their Bartok.
But I'm going to be giving the Takacs a listen, thanks to a wonderful friend.
Quote from: AndyD. on September 12, 2010, 07:57:43 AMI went with the Emerson, both for financial reasons as well as having read so many glowing reviews. I'd hesitated with them at first, because I'm very ambivalent toward alot of their output, mostly their hit and miss Beethoven Late SQs. But mostly I've heard raves in regard to their Bartok.
I wouldn't go to the Emersons for Beethoven, but Bartok, Shostakovich, that sort of stuff, is prime stuff for them.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 12, 2010, 08:01:31 AM
I wouldn't go to the Emersons for Beethoven, but Bartok, Shostakovich, that sort of stuff, is prime stuff for them.
Yeah, I agree. Many of the reasons why I don't like their Beethoven would be good reasons to believe that their Bartok would be great.
Quote from: George on September 12, 2010, 08:06:20 AM
Yeah, I agree. Many of the reasons why I don't like their Beethoven would be good reasons to believe that their Bartok would be great.
Now here's the most thought provoking post I've read since I've been back. I think you're right. One of the reasons I think that is: check out their manhandling of the Grosse Fuge. I have serious issues with how they performed that, and I think they deviated too much from the score. It actually could pass as a very rough Bartok-y type of interpretation, in my humble opinion.
The Juilliard (mine on original US Columbia LP) remains the first set I reach for when I'm in the mood, and the only other vinyl survivor of past purges is a single LP of Tokyo doing the 2 & 6 on DGG. These are all recommended. I do have the Tatrai on vinyl as well, but it's in a box marked "possible sale"...not because of the performances, some of which I find wonderful, but because the sound is rather dim and even suspect in places, due perhaps to the iffy vinyl used for the old Dover pressings. (I WILL be checking these out before I make a final decision; the Tatrai's Bartok isn't all that easy to find in this form any more.)
On CD, the choice for me widens only a bit. I do have a copy of the Emersons, a group that--like George and Scarpia and others--I was surprised to find to be so good in this music. I too was disappointed in their LvB (major understatement here, folks). Other that those, it's back to the early '60s Juilliards, though for some reason I actually prefer listening to them on LP. Go figure.
Otherwise, the only performances I've kept around are assorted single quartets, usually on live chamber programs, and thus not helpful as recommendations for a purchase.
Enjoy the search!
Dirk
Quote from: George on September 12, 2010, 07:51:05 AM
The Hungarian QT on DG is my current favorite, though. I have only heard it once, but it blew me away.
Sounds interesting, George! I've never run across the Hungarian Quartet before.
Haven't heard any of the Juilliard/Bartok recordings, either, and I'm generally a fan of the Juilliards.
The problem I'm having is I'm in that "how many sets do I need" dilemma with three sets already. I would love to hear all these fine sets one day but I don't know how I could justify springing for them. Dang...... :'(
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 12, 2010, 05:07:24 PM
The problem I'm having is I'm in that "how many sets do I need" dilemma with three sets already.
Yes, exactly! In fact, I am more alive to this than ever, now that (without any musical regret at all, mind you) I yielded to temptation flung my way by David Ross, and fetched in 1-½ more Sibelius symphony sets ; )Under the circs, and because I really do enjoy the Emersons' Bartók set unreservedly . . . even that budget-priced Keller set I am going to resist.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 04:23:35 AM
Yes, exactly! In fact, I am more alive to this than ever, now that (without any musical regret at all, mind you) I yielded to temptation flung my way by David Ross, and fetched in 1-½ more Sibelius symphony sets ; )
Under the circs, and because I really do enjoy the Emersons' Bartók set unreservedly . . . even that budget-priced Keller set I am going to resist.
I think, in the case of Sibelius, more is good.
Well, I hope the Emerson set of Bartok SQs that I ordered is at least close in quality to the Takacs that George turned me onto. The Vegh features compelling playing and excellent sound quality. If there was ever good reason to own more than two sets of Bartok's quartets, the Takacs is it.
Indeed, I can emend without any musical regret to the more economical without regret of any sort.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 04:23:35 AM
Yes, exactly! In fact, I am more alive to this than ever, now that (without any musical regret at all, mind you) I yielded to temptation flung my way by David Ross, and fetched in 1-½ more Sibelius symphony sets ; )
Under the circs, and because I really do enjoy the Emersons' Bartók set unreservedly . . . even that budget-priced Keller set I am going to resist.
Quote from: SonicMan on September 11, 2010, 04:08:41 AM
Mjwal - easy to insert images - but now I'm curious about the Vegh - Amazon has 2 offerings, i.e. a 1954 'mono' recording on 2 discs & another box on 3 discs - not sure about the latter's recording date(s)?
For myself, I own the Emerson set and an inexpensive one w/ the Keller Quartet (image below) - excellent review on the latter HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Apr06/Bartok_Quartets_2564626862.htm) - :)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N3ZFBqXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Well that 'budget
Keller Quartet set is just $7.30 on the Amazon MP for 2 discs of fine music! ;D In addition to the MusicWeb review quoted above, another short one below:
QuoteThe Kellers play with arresting intensity and a cogency which illuminates the essence of pure logic throughout these works. A distinguished addition to the Bartók discography.
Bartók's six quartets are to the 20th century what Beethoven's cosmic late masterpieces were to the 19th. Composed over a thirty-year period, they chart Bartók's progress toward sublime mastery, his abandonment of tonality and systematic reappraisal of the conceptual principles of quartet-writing. The First Quartet (1907-9), infused by Debussy, Brahms, and Strauss, already eschews convention, with its three-movement ground plan. The Fourth (1928; remarkable for its concentric, mirror-like architecture) and Fifth (1934) presented a headlong challenge to structural orthodoxy. Bartók's Third Quartet (1927) is the most profoundly concentrated, developing tension through juxtaposed lyrical and motoric episodes, while the final work of the series (1939) is as much point of departure as summation. These sensational performances from the Hungarian Keller Quartet are worthy successors to the seminal Végh Quartet cycle, recorded twenty years ago. The Kellers play with arresting intensity and a cogency which illuminates the essence of pure logic throughout these works. Recorded sound is excellent; warm, resonant and detailed, though a leaner, more clinical ambience (as in DG's mid-priced Tokyo cycle) has certain advantages in scores of such complexity. Galvanic playing, nonetheless, and a distinguished addition to the Bartók discography.
-- Michael Jameson, BBC Music Magazine
Quote from: SonicMan on September 13, 2010, 09:05:16 AM
Well that 'budget Keller Quartet set is just $7.30 on the Amazon MP for 2 discs of fine music! ;D In addition to the MusicWeb review quoted above, another short one below:
OOO...
Quote from: SonicMan on September 13, 2010, 09:05:16 AM
Well that 'budget Keller Quartet set is just $7.30 on the Amazon MP for 2 discs of fine music! ;D
Peter Sellers in The Party: You naughty, naughty man! : )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 09:10:10 AM
Peter Sellers in The Party: You naughty, naughty man! : )
;D :D ;D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 13, 2010, 09:10:10 AM
Peter Sellers in The Party: You naughty, naughty man! : )
That's Jasmine's favorite comedy (I love it too).
Hugh, i really hated The Party. Dreadful film, and Peter Sellers was just plain ridicolous. A real low point in his career.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 12, 2010, 05:07:24 PM
The problem I'm having is I'm in that "how many sets do I need" dilemma with three sets already. I would love to hear all these fine sets one day but I don't know how I could justify springing for them. Dang...... :'(
It's quite an interesting question, that.
I've explored the third a bit recently (it's my favourite), and I was struck by the big differences between interpretations. More striking than with most other quartets.
Maybe you need quite a few CDs – ensembles have personal stuff to say about these quartets. But of course it depends how much you're into the music!
By the way, talking of the third, it's well worth hearing the New Music Quartet in this – available in quite decent sound through Bartok Records. Though for me in the 3rd, Tatrai is tops.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on September 13, 2010, 10:14:54 AM
Hugh, i really hated The Party. Dreadful film, and Peter Sellers was just plain ridicolous. A real low point in his career.
I took this elsewhere (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33.msg448997.html#msg448997). Quote from: SonicMan on September 13, 2010, 09:05:16 AM
Well that 'budget Keller Quartet set is just $7.30 on the Amazon MP for 2 discs of fine music! ;D
Thanks! That really was an offer too good to refuse (and no dead horses).
What's the cover of the Julliard "must have" cd look like?
Is there one with Bartok's face, and one plain grayish cover?
Quote from: snyprrr on September 27, 2010, 07:09:45 AM
What's the cover of the Julliard "must have" cd look like?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YqvH-Z%2BBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Which is just the slipcover over this issue:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41J1R3dty7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote
Is there one with Bartok's face?
That's the 1981 cycle.
You want the gray one.
Quote from: Herman on September 27, 2010, 11:34:44 AM
You want the gray one.
Just to clarify, this one is the same as the grey one and is cheaper on Amazon.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YqvH-Z%2BBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
ok, gray cover + fours guys standing = 1963
face of bartok = 1981
...just saved some money!...thanks!!