I don't think this has been posted before....
There is a fantastic documentary about Carlos Kleiber with some rare opera pit footage, private photos and interviews with key persons in his life (including his sister). The whole thing is on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJLXbR_AB6Q
(I've forgotten how to properly embed this stuff - there are five parts all on youtube - see link)
Thanks.
Yes, thanks so much! Haven't seen this posted anywhere.
---Bruce
Spurred on by the documentary, I ran into a webpage that lists all concert and opera performances CK ever conducted. Turns out in 1973 he conducted a series of concerts featuring the Beethoven "Emperor" with Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli. My mind is about to explode even contemplating the potential greatness.
http://www.thrsw.com/cklist/1973/04/
Quote from: Mensch on February 25, 2011, 11:53:32 AM
Spurred on by the documentary, I ran into a webpage that lists all concert and opera performances CK ever conducted. Turns out in 1973 he conducted a series of concerts featuring the Beethoven "Emperor" with Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli. My mind is about to explode even contemplating the potential greatness.
http://www.thrsw.com/cklist/1973/04/
The way I heard the story recording of Beethoven concerto(s) was scheduled for DG, but after few rehearsals Kleiber stormed out, later quipping that he couldn't stand anymore watching Michelangeli's facial contortions, but the real reason was that probably both of them had strong ideas as to how the piece(s) should go and took 'my way or the highway' stand and it was the highway in the end. Don't quote me on any of this though.
Quote from: Drasko on February 25, 2011, 12:13:48 PM
The way I heard the story recording of Beethoven concerto(s) was scheduled for DG, but after few rehearsals Kleiber stormed out, later quipping that he couldn't stand anymore watching Michelangeli's facial contortions, but the real reason was that probably both of them had strong ideas as to how the piece(s) should go and took 'my way or the highway' stand and it was the highway in the end. Don't quote me on any of this though.
Interesting, though I find it not too terribly credible, I must say. It's not like ABM and CK were all *that* different stylistically. It's not like someone had asked Gardiner to collaborate with Lang Lang. And facial contortions? Come on! Within the global spectrum ABM is quite harmless, and as a conductor you've got your back to him most of the time anyway. And if he "stormed out of the rehearsal", why did they go ahead and perform the full series of three concerts anyway? [EDIT] what a little googling can do.... turns out, it seems the 1973 Hamburg concerts with ABM went fine. According to this site (http://knol.google.com/k/complete-biography-of-carlos-kleiber-1930-2004#), a recording session was scheduled for 1974 with the RIAS orchestra, and it was then that ABM and CK had irreconcilable differences. In contradiction to that, this (not always perfectly accurate) Telegraph obit (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1467455/Carlos-Kleiber.html#) speaks of a "Hamburg recording session" that he walked out of because an insolent cellist dared to ask ABM for the desired tempo instead of him.
Of course, the fact that a rehearsal even happened, raises the possibility that there might be at least an air check somewhere in the DG archives....
I don't get where the veneration of Kleiber comes from. I have one recording of his which is extremely good (the well known Brahms 4) and a few others which were ok (the Beethoven 5/7 disc and one with two Schubert symphonies). He had invitations to work with orchestras such as the Vienna Philharmonic and didn't take advantage of them. Just a waste of what talent he had, is all.
I don't know too much about Kleiber, but there's a YouTube video of him conducting Beethoven's Seventh, first movement, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1qAWcd4rr0 he starts getting great at 3:50, and my favourite moment is at 4:23, he is so animated, so interesting to watch.
Quote from: Mensch on February 25, 2011, 07:58:18 AM
I don't think this has been posted before....
There is a fantastic documentary about Carlos Kleiber with some rare opera pit footage, private photos and interviews with key persons in his life (including his sister). The whole thing is on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJLXbR_AB6Q
(I've forgotten how to properly embed this stuff - there are five parts all on youtube - see link)
This is outstanding Mensch. Thank you.
This was fantastic. I'll never listen to Kleiber the same way again
I like his Beethoven 5, the Brahms 4 isn't as good as Furtwangler for me. I think Furtwangler is more distinctive as a conductor.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 25, 2011, 02:21:59 PM
I don't get where the veneration of Kleiber comes from. I have one recording of his which is extremely good (the well known Brahms 4) and a few others which were ok (the Beethoven 5/7 disc and one with two Schubert symphonies).
One of the interviewees in the documentary says it best: he always gave everything, he didn't know how to make music any other way. You may prefer this or that interpretation to Kleiber's in any given piece (indeed, apart from his Freischütz and maybe the Brahms 4, none of his recordings would necessarily be my first choice for the given repertoire). I think what makes Kleiber really special is a) the absolutely organic nature of his interpretations, where everything evolves virtually inevitably from what came before; b) an undeniable, force-of-nature intensity, especially when the work is of a tragic nature; and c) an almost obsessive compulsive attention to detail and textual fidelity, which, however, never turns his interpretations didactic or academic. Sit down with a score some day and follow how exactly he follows *every* smallest phrasing and dynamic indication. Kleiber isn't necessarily first choice, but he is absolutely essential listening in everything he does.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 25, 2011, 02:21:59 PM
He had invitations to work with orchestras such as the Vienna Philharmonic and didn't take advantage of them. Just a waste of what talent he had, is all.
It's a little more than that. If you watch the film, his uncompromising standards and his veneration of his father made maintaining a fuller performance schedule not really possible. He had countless invitations to other orchestras as well, but refused and cancelled more often than he came through.
Quote from: Mensch on February 27, 2011, 02:40:44 PM
One of the interviewees in the documentary says it best: he always gave everything, he didn't know how to make music any other way. You may prefer this or that interpretation to Kleiber's in any given piece (indeed, apart from his Freischütz and maybe the Brahms 4, none of his recordings would necessarily be my first choice for the given repertoire). I think what makes Kleiber really special is a) the absolutely organic nature of his interpretations, where everything evolves virtually inevitably from what came before; b) an undeniable, force-of-nature intensity, especially when the work is of a tragic nature; and c) an almost obsessive compulsive attention to detail and textual fidelity, which, however, never turns his interpretations didactic or academic. Sit down with a score some day and follow how exactly he follows *every* smallest phrasing and dynamic indication. Kleiber isn't necessarily first choice, but he is absolutely essential listening in everything he does.
I'll admit it was interesting to watch for a few minutes, but if he does not produce exceptional results, did not build up the orchestras he worked with, what is the point?
I find this release at least as interesting.
[asin]B000GQL8NQ[/asin]
There is a rehearsal sequence for Beethoven 5, in which Karajan is supposedly mentoring a young conductor, which just makes me cringe. But there is what seems to be a genuine rehearsal of Schumann 4 which is a wonder to watch. Compared with Kleiber, Karajan is equally committed and engaged with the music. He addresses both the "meaning" that a music phrase has and the practical means of achieving the required effect.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Shc-4AZVaNk
http://www.youtube.com/v/gahF3FEWjM0
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 28, 2011, 11:18:46 AM
I'll admit it was interesting to watch for a few minutes, but if he does not produce exceptional results, did not build up the orchestras he worked with, what is the point?
The point is incandescent, timeless music, possessed by an irrepressible urgency. I'm not sure how you can deny that he produced "exceptional results". Not everyone needs to be an orchrestra builder to be a great conductor, though one should point out that Kleiber did vastly improve the Stuttgart opera and that the Bavarian State Orchestra usually sounded much better in his hands than the third rate band that they usually were.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on February 28, 2011, 11:18:46 AM
Compared with Kleiber, Karajan is equally committed and engaged with the music. He addresses both the "meaning" that a music phrase has and the practical means of achieving the required effect.
Apples v. Oranges. Look, there are other conductors I adore like Kubelik, Schuricht or Barenboim and they all find meaning in music as well. That's what makes a great conductor. But they all look for different things. No one interpretation can hold within it the complete universe of possible and plausibly convincing interpretations. Karajan and Kleiber operate in different spheres. And that's not a value judgment. But a musical world without those few precious records of Kleiber would be vastly poorer. E.g., there are others I often prefer in Brahms 4, looking at the work as a whole (e.g. Wand or Barenboim). But nobody, absolutely nobody, produces such a relentlessly intense tragic finale, as Kleiber does. It might not be your first choice, but it as absolutely essential listening. You can stare at the score forever, but that intensity is somewhere between those black dots on the paper, and that even though, or precisely because, Kleiber so meticulously observes every little indication in that score.
Also, I have a DVD of the complete footage of that Stuttgart rehearsal of the Freischütz Overture that is featured in the documentary, and it is not the case that Kleiber did not offer detailed technical advice where needed. He could be quite obsessive about that.
For German speakers, there is another new Kleiber documentary that goes a bit deeper into his psychology, with some of the same interviewees as the first one I posted. This just aired a few days ago on the German cable channel 3Sat:
http://www.3sat.de/mediathek/mediathek.php?obj=23335
How did the English subtitles appear? On MDT, the DVD video states that there are subtitles but not in English.
:D
I have just watched a Carlos Kleiber Documentary on the Berlin Philharmonic Digital site - not the same as the one posted above. (Un?)fortunately the one posted above is no longer available in its entireity on youtube, but it is available as a DVD on Amazon, etc. It is called "Traces to nowhere."
One of the things that differentiate Kleiber from 'the rest' was his unorthodox style of conducting and his completely non-technical way of giving references for the kind of playing he wanted. Even non-musicians would understand completely what he wanted in the music by his sometimes unusual visualisations of how it should be. For example, "You see a long legged, beautiful woman coming towards you. You see her, and you have to use your violin to seduce her!" Not technical, but you know how to play the violin in that part! His conducting was pretty wild and free, not much tapping to the beat or isosceles triangle movements with the stick. He expressed the music through himself, not through conducting textbooks. Listen - you can hear the results.
Kleiber was utterly brilliant, and if Scarpia was still on GMG, I would have quite the most dreadful row with him on the matter! :D
Viva Kleiber!
Quote from: Scots John on February 23, 2012, 10:52:17 PM
His conducting was pretty wild and free, not much tapping to the beat or isosceles triangle movements with the stick. He expressed the music through himself, not through conducting textbooks.
Not sure I would agree. Kleiber had a very clear beat - when he wanted to. Watch e.g. The RCO Beethoven 4&7 or the VPO Brahms 2 video. He gives a very clear beat every time he wants to manipulate the tempo. When the tempo remains steady, he doesn't bother hammering out the beats but focuses on phrasing and dynamics. He had different conducting tools for different purposes.
Quote from: MishaK on February 24, 2012, 06:48:08 AM
Not sure I would agree. Kleiber had a very clear beat - when he wanted to. Watch e.g. The RCO Beethoven 4&7 or the VPO Brahms 2 video. He gives a very clear beat every time he wants to manipulate the tempo. When the tempo remains steady, he doesn't bother hammering out the beats but focuses on phrasing and dynamics. He had different conducting tools for different purposes.
Yes. Agreed.
QuoteHe had different conducting tools for different purposes.
I meant only to draw attention to his idiosyncracies of which there were many. :P
Quote from: MishaK on February 28, 2011, 11:29:17 AM
E.g., there are others I often prefer in Brahms 4, looking at the work as a whole (e.g. Wand or Barenboim). But nobody, absolutely nobody, produces such a relentlessly intense tragic finale, as Kleiber does.
Furtwangler?
Quote from: starrynight on February 24, 2012, 12:33:13 PM
Furtwangler?
No, not quite. I like Furtwängler too, but in that finale Kleiber is in a league of his own.
It may -- or may not -- surprise readers that Kleiber was a TREMENDOUS admirer of Furtwängler. I knew and studied with CK from 1989 to the end, and cannot count the occasions when Carlos examined, lauded, and marveled at "Furty's" take on a particular work. We talked about him a lot.
In April and May of 1950, CK attended virtually every rehearsal and performance given by Furtwängler at the Colón in Buenos Aires, his home at the time.
"Kleiber was in particular awe of Furtwängler's capacity to find and release the singing line. He saw and heard in Furtwängler one of the great exponents of unbroken melos, the underground river connecting every harmonic and melodic design above.
"Kleiber was nineteen when Furtwängler appeared in Buenos Aires. He was open to everything that could be learned. During those weeks Carlos appears to have attended the rehearsals and performances of every work. He heard Furtwängler prepare and conduct Bach, Debussy and Haydn, Handel and Castro, Ugarte and Mahler, Brahms' Symphony No. 4, Richard Strauss' 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' and 'Till Eulenspiegel', the Bartok 'Concerto for Orchestra', Beethoven, Schubert, Tchaikovsky and, perhaps most impressively, Richard Wagner. 30 In particular, the Prelude and Liebestod from 'Tristan und Isolde' was unlike anything he had ever encountered."
So unalike on the podium, Carlos and Furtwängler shared a deep awareness of music and musicianship, I believe.
Charles Barber
CITY OPERA VANCOUVER
Quote from: Charles Barber on February 27, 2012, 01:43:11 PM
It may -- or may not -- surprise readers that Kleiber was a TREMENDOUS admirer of Furtwängler. I knew and studied with CK from 1989 to the end, and cannot count the occasions when Carlos examined, lauded, and marveled at "Furty's" take on a particular work. We talked about him a lot.
In April and May of 1950, CK attended virtually every rehearsal and performance given by Furtwängler at the Colón in Buenos Aires, his home at the time.
"Kleiber was in particular awe of Furtwängler's capacity to find and release the singing line. He saw and heard in Furtwängler one of the great exponents of unbroken melos, the underground river connecting every harmonic and melodic design above.
"Kleiber was nineteen when Furtwängler appeared in Buenos Aires. He was open to everything that could be learned. During those weeks Carlos appears to have attended the rehearsals and performances of every work. He heard Furtwängler prepare and conduct Bach, Debussy and Haydn, Handel and Castro, Ugarte and Mahler, Brahms' Symphony No. 4, Richard Strauss' 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' and 'Till Eulenspiegel', the Bartok 'Concerto for Orchestra', Beethoven, Schubert, Tchaikovsky and, perhaps most impressively, Richard Wagner. 30 In particular, the Prelude and Liebestod from 'Tristan und Isolde' was unlike anything he had ever encountered."
So unalike on the podium, Carlos and Furtwängler shared a deep awareness of music and musicianship, I believe.
Charles Barber
CITY OPERA VANCOUVER
Good Lord. Charles Barber. Honoured to meet you Sir, if it IS you. Any friend of Carlos Kleiber is a friend of mine.
Allo, John of Scots.
Yup, it's true. When I was a grad student in conducting at Stanford I first saw him work. Couldn't believe my eyes -- or ears. I wrote him a letter, asking if I could study with him, and he replied. It went on like that for 15 years and about 200 letters, and a chance to learn from (in my view) the greatest conductor of the age. I recently published a book about him, as I got fed up with all the lurid nonsense being peddled by lazy 'journalists' who never even met the guy. You would have liked him. BBC3 is doing a long-form radio documentary about CK, based on the book, due to be transmitted on March 10.
We share a heritage, John. Half of my family is Scots, from Livingstone Station. We won't talk about the other half.
PS: Carlos had a wonderful, relentless and bizarre sense of humour. Among many admirable traits, he "got" Fawlty Towers.
Charles Barber
CITY OPERA VANCOUVER
Quote from: Charles Barber on February 27, 2012, 02:17:20 PM
Allo, John of Scots.
I wrote him a letter, asking if I could study with him, and he replied. It went on like that for 15 years and about 200 letters, and a chance to learn from (in my view) the greatest conductor of the age.
Yes, I saw that on one of the features from 2009 Radio 3. Excellent. Honoured indeed. I will now look for your book, and get it! Thank you also for the Radio 3 documentary news which I will most definitely be tuned to. How astonishing that after 'suddenly' switching on to Herr kleiber, that I am speaking to you of all people about it. Thank you Maestro.
Just one thing. Your heritage coming from Livingston, Midlothian. Livingston
Station? Is that the bus station or what? Your parents were born in in a bus station in Scotland? :D 0:)
For anyone who doesn't know what has just happened here...and how privillaged we are...
"I never write letters of recommendation, so this is an exception. Charles Barber is a scholar and a conductor who adores and understands music. We have become friends, and he pretends to believe that I have taught him something."
~~~ Carlos Kleiber, 1997
Quote from: Charles Barber on February 27, 2012, 01:43:11 PMHe heard Furtwängler prepare and conduct Bach, Debussy and Haydn, Handel and Castro, Ugarte
Hmmm ... ?
Indeed, WF did conduct S American composers -- at the request of the Teatro Colón's management. In the course of researching the Kleiber book, and through Sebastiano De Filippi, I was able to acquire copies of those programmes. I believe the same info about WF's S American repertoire appears in John Hunt's book and, if not mistaken, John Ardoin's as well.
Similarly, WF also conducted in Venezuela on that tour, and recordings have survived.
Quote from: Scots John on February 27, 2012, 02:29:58 PM
Yes, I saw that on one of the features from 2009 Radio 3. Excellent. Honoured indeed. I will now look for your book, and get it!
====thank you / do not operate heavy machinery within six hours of reading it / very dangerous
Thank you also for the Radio 3 documentary news which I will most definitely be tuned to.
====I hope you enjoy it. We're taping my voice-overs this Wednesday morning, via CBC Vancouver
How astonishing that after 'suddenly' switching on to Herr kleiber, that I am speaking to you of all people about it. Thank you Maestro.
=====my pleasure. I actually first 'saw' him on PBS one night. My friend Mark and I were bicycling from Stanford to Los Angeles, down the coast, and one night (my birthday) rented a motel room. While Mark was in the shower I was channel-surfing, and there was Kleiber (whom I did not recognize) leading the Concertgebouw in Beethoven 4. Changed my life.
Just one thing. Your heritage coming from Livingston, Midlothian. Livingston Station? Is that the bus station or what? Your parents were born in in a bus station in Scotland? :D 0:)
=====no, in a handbag at Victoria Sta... ohh. Sorry. Couldn't pass up.
===my parents were born in Canada. Talking the generations prior.
Hello again!
Family tales advise that the Walker (my mom's) side came from Livingstone Station, then a small village on a rail line, in what is now a suburb of Edinburgh. They emigrated to Canada about a century ago, and I presume that the 'station' is long gone. Luckily, the accents have survived. My sisters and I can still do a reasonable approximation, though I doubt we would fool YOU.
Best,
Charrrrrles