I've never made a secret of not liking vibrato, or excessive amounts of it, in the human voice as an art form. One of the reasons Pavarotti was so esteemed was because his voice and high C's were clear and direct, little warbling (if any) in most cases. Similarly, Del Monacos voice, whilst there is some warbling, presents with an airful of dramatic timbre, so one doesn't mind if he warbles or not (preferably not) :P. These are just two illustrations of what I like in the voice, even though most times I haven't a clue what they're singing about.
In the female Soprano, it amazes me how many warblers there are. I was investigating links to the end of "Sapho" in another thread, but each Soprano I heard warbled, including such antics as part of their art. My point is, I would like to hear Sopranos with more of a crystal clear and direct timbre, a kind of sky blue clear Nordic sound, rather than flaunt the limitations and imperfections of their considerable throats. :-X
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 09, 2011, 08:52:11 PM
I've never made a secret of not liking vibrato, or excessive amounts of it, in the human voice as an art form. One of the reasons Pavarotti was so esteemed was because his voice and high C's were clear and direct, little warbling (if any) in most cases. Similarly, Del Monacos voice, whilst there is some warbling, presents with an airful of dramatic timbre, so one doesn't mind if he warbles or not (preferably not) :P. These are just two illustrations of what I like in the voice, even though most times I haven't a clue what they're singing about.
In the female Soprano, it amazes me how many warblers there are. I was investigating links to the end of "Sapho" in another thread, but each Soprano I heard warbled, including such antics as part of their art. My point is, I would like to hear Sopranos with more of a crystal clear and direct timbre, a kind of sky blue clear Nordic sound, rather than flaunt the limitations and imperfections of their considerable throats. :-X
You are talking about vibrato (or excessie vibrato in this case)?
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 09, 2011, 10:17:46 PM
You are talking about vibrato (or excessie vibrato in this case)?
QuoteI've never made a secret of not liking vibrato, or excessive amounts of it...
Ha! I still must be sleeping to have read so inattentively.
I tend to agree with you. I dislike excessive vibato. And usually I prefer little to no vibrato myself. However, I do find that with French opera I do like more vibrato than I do with other nationalities (of opera). Odd that, but then they did have some different traditions as regards vibrato. But the use of vibrato is still somewhat controversial anyway. I would prefer less myself, though good singing is good singing.
The problem is worsened when some sopranos age too, so that while they may have been tolerable when young, their voice creates a beat or worse when they get older.
For me is quite easy. vibrato is not written in the score, and should not be there, apart from the natural vibrato, which amounts almost to nothing. Vibrato with soprano's is a sign that their voice is crap. And please before ya all attack me, it is my personal opinion, and I am allowed to have that. ;D
How about violin warbling?
http://www.youtube.com/v/ICp-1YLKegM
Quote from: PaulSC on March 09, 2011, 11:46:41 PM
How about violin warbling?
http://www.youtube.com/v/ICp-1YLKegM
Similarly awful. That's why one of the indications I most enjoy reading in scores (typically of 20th C music) is
senza vibrato sempre ;).
Quote from: Harry IIyich Tchaikovsky on March 09, 2011, 11:07:43 PM
For me is quite easy. vibrato is not written in the score, and should not be there, apart from the natural vibrato, which amounts almost to nothing. Vibrato with soprano's is a sign that their voice is crap. And please before ya all attack me, it is my personal opinion, and I am allowed to have that. ;D
Erm.... Breathing is usually not marked in the score, but singers are still expected to do that. If you actually read what old composers said you would see that they did want vibrato.
Quote from: Guido. on March 10, 2011, 06:16:33 AM
Erm.... Breathing is usually not marked in the score, but singers are still expected to do that. If you actually read what old composers said you would see that they did want vibrato.
Actually, there is a lot of disagreement on whether they did or did not want it and to what extent they wanted it. In some circles it is an explosive subject.
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 09, 2011, 08:52:11 PM
I've never made a secret of not liking vibrato, or excessive amounts of it, in the human voice as an art form. One of the reasons Pavarotti was so esteemed was because his voice and high C's were clear and direct, little warbling (if any) in most cases. Similarly, Del Monacos voice, whilst there is some warbling, presents with an airful of dramatic timbre, so one doesn't mind if he warbles or not (preferably not) :P. These are just two illustrations of what I like in the voice, even though most times I haven't a clue what they're singing about.
In the female Soprano, it amazes me how many warblers there are. I was investigating links to the end of "Sapho" in another thread, but each Soprano I heard warbled, including such antics as part of their art. My point is, I would like to hear Sopranos with more of a crystal clear and direct timbre, a kind of sky blue clear Nordic sound, rather than flaunt the limitations and imperfections of their considerable throats. :-X
Try Gundula Janowitz. Angelic, pure, you'll love her. Her Strauss Four Last Songs with Karajan are at the top of my desert island list.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 10, 2011, 09:53:18 AM
Actually, there is a lot of disagreement on whether they did or did not want it and to what extent they wanted it. In some circles it is an explosive subject.
I'm talking about Verdi and Wagner and Massenet and Strauss - recordings of people who sung for these guys were made early last century and there's no one who didn't use vibrato. For Baroque singing there is more debate.
Quote from: MishaK on March 10, 2011, 09:58:10 AM
Try Gundula Janowitz. Angelic, pure, you'll love her. Her Strauss Four Last Songs with Karajan are at the top of my desert island list.
I will do. Nice clear sopranos are so hard to find.
For ages, Scotto has been the worst offender. I simply can not stand it. An otherwise wonderful production of Francesca da Rimini (Zandonai) was almost ruined by her presence!
Is she still singing? What roles? Where?
Quote from: Guido. on March 12, 2011, 02:44:30 AM
Is she still singing? What roles? Where?
According to wikipedia (I know, I know) her last stage performance was in 2002, and the last few years were mostly devoted to
Mödlrollen. For many years she was virtually "Queen of the Met", but she last sang there in January 1987.
The high notes could be a trial (one critic called them "paint-stripping"), but I thought her intensity and musicality more than made up for it. I think the Met
Francesca da Rimini DVD is wonderful.
Quote from: MishaK on March 10, 2011, 09:58:10 AM
Try Gundula Janowitz. Angelic, pure, you'll love her. Her Strauss Four Last Songs with Karajan are at the top of my desert island list.
A favourite of mine also. But she uses vibrato. Compare her vocal production to that of a boy soprano.
Now here is a vibrato and a half.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8bF9JMznk
Now for Janowitz, even on her second note, there is vibrato. A certain amount of it is needed to provide colour to the sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJBymXyP1g0&feature=related
Boy soprano in Faure Requiem, lovely in its way, but pretty unformed in terms of controlling sound and the actual sound itself is pure, but lacking expression or warmth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ePmrZDTfw
Also, I can't tell one of these lads from another. It is almost a generic sound, with the occasional distinctive voice briefly shining.
Mike
Quote from: springrite on March 11, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
For ages, Scotto has been the worst offender. I simply can not stand it. An otherwise wonderful production of Francesca da Rimini (Zandonai) was almost ruined by her presence!
The only time I heard Scotto live would have been around 1972 and I have not deliberately listeded to her since. It was an entire evening of paintstripping.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 03:26:33 AM
A favourite of mine also. But she uses vibrato. Compare her vocal production to that of a boy soprano.
Mike
Yes. She warbles too. Clarity can be colourful without warbling. The venerable Pavarotti was famous for it.
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 03:30:38 AM
The only time I heard Scotto live would have been around 1972 and I have not deliberately listeded to her since. It was an entire evening of paintstripping.
Mike
I'm a bit mystified by this. I like what I've heard of hers. Surely the intensity is compelling? It's by no means an ugly voice, often very beautiful I think. Haven't heard any bad top notes from hers in recordings either.
Interesting that the Met has its "queens" (the ones on stage, not in the audience, definitely also a major feature of that house! http://parterre.com/ ). Currently it's obviously Renée Fleming. Who was it before her?
Quote from: Guido. on March 12, 2011, 05:22:10 AM
Interesting that the Met has its "queens" (the ones on stage, not in the audience, definitely also a major feature of that house! http://parterre.com/ ). Currently it's obviously Renée Fleming. Who was it before her?
I think the heir apparent was Aprile Millo, but that didn't quite work out. Jessye Norman? Or Pavarotti? Battle
thought she was, but I don't think soubrette queens are allowed.
Quote from: Guido. on March 12, 2011, 05:22:10 AM
I'm a bit mystified by this. I like what I've heard of hers. Surely the intensity is compelling? It's by no means an ugly voice, often very beautiful I think. Haven't heard any bad top notes from hers in recordings either.
Interesting that the Met has its "queens" (the ones on stage, not in the audience, definitely also a major feature of that house! http://parterre.com/ ). Currently it's obviously Renée Fleming. Who was it before her?
I used to have the Barbirolli Butterfly and I had a recording with her as Desdemona. I did not 'get' the voice. While I was still trying to come to grips with it, I went to see a rare opera at the Edin Festival; Il Stranero...spelling? It was a very long time ago, but my abiding memory was of watching her stand at the front of the stage and sing long, long arias and I did not like the voice one bit, mainly due to the vibrato.
It is perhaps this mystery of literally hearing the same thing differently from ones neighbour.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 08:17:55 AM
I used to have the Barbirolli Butterfly and I had a recording with her as Desdemona. I did not 'get' the voice. While I was still trying to come to grips with it, I went to see a rare opera at the Edin Festival; Il Stranero...spelling? It was a very long time ago, but my abiding memory was of watching her stand at the front of the stage and sing long, long arias and I did not like the voice one bit, mainly due to the vibrato.
I could swear that when I complained of Scotto's vibrato I got told off in these parts. ???
You might want to listen to more "early" music, where some of the singers seem to be less prone to reflexively employing a vibrato wide enough to drive a truck through. Pick a note, please, dear ladies :)
Indiscriminate and over-wide vibrato seems to be almost an accepted norm in classical singing and playing. It works much better when employed for specific effect, imo.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 12, 2011, 08:30:15 AM
I could swear that when I complained of Scotto's vibrato I got told off in these parts. ???
Not by me. When did I last tell you off for
anything?
Mike
Quote from: Grazioso on March 12, 2011, 08:33:00 AM
Indiscriminate and over-wide vibrato seems to be almost an accepted norm in classical singing and playing. It works much better when employed for specific effect, imo.
I rather agree with that and in my opinion, it is caused by singers taking on heavy parts and pushing the voice. I heard Eva Marton in Elektra and Turandot. It was a real trial, yet these singers get engaged for such parts years in advance. Earlier in her career, she had a firm gleaming voice.
The orchestra may have to be surmounted, the house may be large, the temptation to provide the thrilling notes a la Nilsson is too much and the result is often: Dame Gwyneth Jones and her sisters inadvertently rewriting the parts like throat warblers on steroids.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 08:54:35 AM
Not by me. When did I last tell you off for anything?
I'm being over dramatic. Not told off, so much as contradicted. I criticized Scotto's excess vibrato and you denied she had any such problem. See post 12 in this thread.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17752.msg478650/topicseen.html#msg478650 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17752.msg478650/topicseen.html#msg478650)
Yes, it is true, it was not a wobble, but I felt it was excessive vibrato. Something not to my taste as against being an outright fault, which I believe a wobble is.
I will have a dekko on Youtube.
Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L6OoQ37Ko4&feature=related
This I suspect is a prime time recording and very good. But I don't like the metallic tone as she goes up the scale and I think it spreads, but no wobble. The piece I heard her in is I think by Bellini. It certainly required lots of colouratura work and she simply wore my ears out with vibrant tone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2AHbz2siHA&feature=related
Here is a whole other bag of bones. I think the tone is over vibrant and this is more what I recall. But it is still not a wobble. But really, it is as much about taste as anything.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 08:17:55 AM
I went to see a rare opera at the Edin Festival; Il Stranero...spelling?
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 10:11:56 AM
The piece I heard her in is I think by Bellini.
Sounds like Bellini's
La straniera. I've never heard it, but I know she sang it earlier in her career.
Yes the first video is more in line with what I was thinking of. I'm no Scotto maven, just was surprised to hear that she was found so objectionable. The second video is much less pleasant (and is the ridiculous overacting....)
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 09:01:35 AM
I rather agree with that and in my opinion, it is caused by singers taking on heavy parts and pushing the voice. I heard Eva Marton in Elektra and Turandot. It was a real trial, yet these singers get engaged for such parts years in advance. Earlier in her career, she had a firm gleaming voice.
The orchestra may have to be surmounted, the house may be large, the temptation to provide the thrilling notes a la Nilsson is too much and the result is often: Dame Gwyneth Jones and her sisters inadvertently rewriting the parts like throat warblers on steroids.
Mike
I know some blame often gets laid on Wagner's doorstep, too, for writing parts that only one-in-a-million singers, like Nilsson or Flagstad, can pull off without injuring the audience's eardrums. I'm no singer of vocal coach, but that whole modern operatic method of vocal production (sort of like fluidly bellowing in key) strikes me as so unnatural that I'm amazed when singers do nail it.
(Interestingly, it's been adopted rather successfully by some rock singers, like Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden, who ironically have no need to project like that since they're amplified.)
Quote from: Wendell_E on March 12, 2011, 10:30:00 AM
Sounds like Bellini's La straniera. I've never heard it, but I know she sang it earlier in her career.
Thank you, yes, the very one. I have not listened to it since and that is probably my problem rather than one in the music.
Mike
A case in point: I just watched Love Me Tonight, a 1932 Rodgers and Hart musical with Maurice Chevalier and Jeannette MacDonald. The latter's vibrato was so exaggerated, she sound like a canary being electrocuted. I couldn't make out half her lines, despite being sung in English :( Great movie, though, with some very funny lyrics and lines, classic tunes, and beautiful cinematography.
Quote from: Grazioso on March 12, 2011, 08:33:00 AM
You might want to listen to more "early" music, where some of the singers seem to be less prone to reflexively employing a vibrato wide enough to drive a truck through. Pick a note, please, dear ladies :)
Indiscriminate and over-wide vibrato seems to be almost an accepted norm in classical singing and playing. It works much better when employed for specific effect, imo.
I presume you're talking here of opera. I have many recording of sopranos singing lieder and there''s hardly a wobble to be heard, just beautiful clear notes.
Quote from: knight66 on March 12, 2011, 03:30:38 AM
The only time I heard Scotto live would have been around 1972 and I have not deliberately listeded to her since. It was an entire evening of paintstripping.
Mike
No trace of vibrato in the
Madame Butterfly recording (1966) with Scotto, Bergonzi and Barbirolli.
I don't know why only sopranos are being picked on for "warbling". Some recordings of "Stride la Vampa" done by tremulous mezzos sound more like "Stride the Vampire".
ZB
Quote from: Ten thumbs on March 14, 2011, 09:15:37 AM
I presume you're talking here of opera. I have many recording of sopranos singing lieder and there''s hardly a wobble to be heard, just beautiful clear notes.
Great. Who are they and what recordings are they? Any examples?
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 09, 2011, 08:52:11 PM
...My point is, I would like to hear Sopranos with more of a crystal clear and direct timbre, a kind of sky blue clear Nordic sound, rather than flaunt the limitations and imperfections of their considerable throats. :-X
Try Lucia Popp. Crystal-clear voice, minimal and perfectly controlled vibrato, not a wobble nor a warble in hearing. 8) As I recall, Ileana Cotrubas in her prime had that kind of tight focus too. Or if you want a completely vibrato-free voice, try early-music singer Emma Kirkby.
And my personal favorite singer, mezzo Dame Janet Baker, has (or had in her prime) a similarly well-controlled vibrato which she could easily reduce to nothing when the music called for it. 8)
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on March 14, 2011, 10:25:06 AM
No trace of vibrato in the Madame Butterfly recording (1966) with Scotto, Bergonzi and Barbirolli.
ZB
I never suggested there was; but I got rid of it becuase I don't connect with her at all. In Butterfly, I am happy with de los Angeles, that well known Mezzo, Gheorghiu and Callas.
Mike
Quote from: John of Glasgow on March 14, 2011, 10:28:37 AM
Great. Who are they and what recordings are they? Any examples?
I looked at your post and thought I'd check. What you hear from memory is not necessarily how it sounds. I find that all good singers (bass, tenor, contralto and soprano) have a certain amount of vibrato. To sing without would be unmusical - a bit like speaking in a dead-pan emotionless voice. However, I stand by no wobble and also each note is hit cleanly. I don't know if that meets your requirements but if you want some samples and would like to hear some great music that you may not know, try Heike Hallaschka singing Josephine Lang or Valérie Gabail singing Bonis' 3 Chansons de Shakespeare (opus 91).
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on March 14, 2011, 10:25:06 AM
No trace of vibrato in the Madame Butterfly recording (1966) with Scotto, Bergonzi and Barbirolli.
No vibrato?
This thread is beyond bizarre.
I've stayed out of this discussion till now because I get so fed up of people mixing up vibrato and wobble. Vibrato is the life blood of a voice and, most singers of all ranges use it, particularly in music of the nineteenth century onwards. Why? Because as the orchestras got larger and louder, it became necessary to vibrate the tone in order to be heard through the orchestral texture. You may prefer the white, pure sound of an Emma Kirkby, but she would never be able to sing nineteenth century opera. She just wouldn't be heard. Schwarzkopf talks about this in John Steane's book Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record. She says that she did not have a large voice (certainly not as large as her admired colleagues Irmgard Seefried and Christa Ludwig), and that, when singing operatic music of the nineteenth and twentieth century, it became necessary to vibrate the sound more so that she could be heard. She makes a clear distinction between vibrating and pushing the voice, for, if you push the voice, you are more likely to develop a wobble. ZB, I'm sure you could back me up on this. It was a device she used altogether more chastely in the music of Mozart and in Lieder. Even at the very end of her career, though the voice has dried out a bit, there is never a trace of wobble in Schwarzkopf's tone. She clearly knew what she was talking about.
Of course Callas, my favourite singer is often accused of an excess of vibrato, but, here too, this is a misapprehension. Later in her career, certainly, the voice developed a wobble, either because of the weight loss, which hindered her support, or through faulty training (there are a million theories and I doubt we will ever really know the reason), but early in her career she was admirably secure and, like Schwarzkopf, used vibrato as and when the music requires. She uses vibrato far more in the famous Tosca recording of 1953, for instance, than in I Puritani, recorded at the same time. And, incidentally, when listening to the live Anna Bolena of 1957, we find, when comparing her with her colleague Giulietta Simionato, that it is Callas's voice that has the cleaner attack and keener focus.
So, give me vibrato, not an excess of it certainly, but yes I like it.
how about this?
http://youtu.be/2i-H24idN1Q (http://youtu.be/2i-H24idN1Q)
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on March 20, 2011, 01:21:19 AM
I've stayed out of this discussion till now because I get so fed up of people mixing up vibrato and wobble. Vibrato is the life blood of a voice and, most singers of all ranges use it, particularly in music of the nineteenth century onwards. Why? Because as the orchestras got larger and louder, it became necessary to vibrate the tone in order to be heard through the orchestral texture. You may prefer the white, pure sound of an Emma Kirkby, but she would never be able to sing nineteenth century opera. She just wouldn't be heard. Schwarzkopf talks about this in John Steane's book Schwarzkopf: A Career on Record. She says that she did not have a large voice (certainly not as large as her admired colleagues Irmgard Seefried and Christa Ludwig), and that, when singing operatic music of the nineteenth and twentieth century, it became necessary to vibrate the sound more so that she could be heard. She makes a clear distinction between vibrating and pushing the voice, for, if you push the voice, you are more likely to develop a wobble. ZB, I'm sure you could back me up on this. It was a device she used altogether more chastely in the music of Mozart and in Lieder. Even at the very end of her career, though the voice has dried out a bit, there is never a trace of wobble in Schwarzkopf's tone. She clearly knew what she was talking about.
Of course Callas, my favourite singer is often accused of an excess of vibrato, but, here too, this is a misapprehension. Later in her career, certainly, the voice developed a wobble, either because of the weight loss, which hindered her support, or through faulty training (there are a million theories and I doubt we will ever really know the reason), but early in her career she was admirably secure and, like Schwarzkopf, used vibrato as and when the music requires. She uses vibrato far more in the famous Tosca recording of 1953, for instance, than in I Puritani, recorded at the same time. And, incidentally, when listening to the live Anna Bolena of 1957, we find, when comparing her with her colleague Giulietta Simionato, that it is Callas's voice that has the cleaner attack and keener focus.
So, give me vibrato, not an excess of it certainly, but yes I like it.
I've just listened again to Schwarzkopf's Strauss songs with orchestra. I dislike the way she sometimes pares the sound down so much that its just a wavery little strand of voice. Probably just a taste thing - do others like this? It's so odd, because in Arabella and Rosenkavalier the voice is so beautiful. Actually I love her best of all in Ariadne because she's doing exactly what you mention - she uses more vibrato to be heard in this heavier role, and finally there's no risk of the sound being anaemic or fluttery.
I remember finding this whole discussion bizarre. Vibrato
is the sound!
In Ariadne we have an aria, 'Es gibt ein Reich', that is almost Wagnerian in amplitude and it needs a good deal of tone applied to it. But in Strauss's songs, we do get quite a variety of approach from 'Befreit' which takes exactly the approach needed in 'Es gibt', to very intimate salon songs which were initially written to be accompanied by piano and only orchestrated later.
Which songs in particular do you mean? I have the EMI Szell/Schwarzkopf Four Last Songs disc that now includes 14 other songs and I assume you are referring to something from that disc.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on August 09, 2011, 04:17:30 AM
In Ariadne we have an aria, 'Es gibt ein Reich', that is almost Wagnerian in amplitude and it needs a good deal of tone applied to it. But in Strauss's songs, we do get quite a variety of approach from 'Befreit' which takes exactly the approach needed in 'Es gibt', to very intimate salon songs which were initially written to be accompanied by piano and only orchestrated later.
Which songs in particular do you mean? I have the EMI Szell/Schwarzkopf Four Last Songs disc that now includes 14 other songs and I assume you are referring to something from that disc.
Mike
I think she sounds more beautiful as Ariadne than anywhere else. I
love lyric voices in this part. Fleming's doing it in Baden Baden next Feb, and Glyndebourne are doing it in 2013 (as a leaving present for Jurowski) with Isokoski.
The one I'm thinking of most is Waldseligkeit - one of my favourite Strauss orchestral songs, here marred by the affected tone. It's trying to be "innig" and I'm sure lots of people love it, but I don't like the sound at all. Try comparing it to Fleming's account of the song on the earlier Four Last Songs CD(the one with Eschenbach) which to me is one of the most beautiful things that she has committed to disc. Fleming of course is the absolute mistress of high pianissimo singing (and it's never for showing off as Caballé was guilty of, much though I admire her), but there are so many gorgeous little details in it where she colours the voice - near the end: the word "Eigen" with that intense vibrato before the almost hallucinatory floating beauty of "ganz nur dein". I know Fleming is a contentious example to choose because she is accused of being shallow and affected, but I've never bought that in her German repertoire singing. These things are all very personal of course, but just wanted to point out the risks of the other side of the issue - not using enough vibrato.
To me, more offensive than wide vibrato, is slow vibrato, and the two often get confused in descriptions. Often of course they go together, especially in the case of a "wobble". It's why I tend to prefer lyric to dramatic voices (with some obvious exceptions).
I have been back and forth between them and like them both. It is possibly a matter of swings and roundabouts and mainly about chosen approach. I agree that Fleming makes more of that phrase 'Da bin ich ganz dein eigen' moving more surely towards 'eigen' being the climax of the phrase. But.....on the final line she needs to take one more breath than Schwarzkopf and the latter manages more expression in the lower phrases of the song. Fleming sounds a little bit like she is beefing those phrases up to attain acceptable tone there.
But as I suggest elsewhere, this is not a competition and I think they are both great. I can see what you don't like with the near white tone of Schwarzkopf and agree her concept was about drawing you in deploying 'innig'. She was 51 when she recorded it and appreciably older than Fleming. So who knows what may have been compromise or choice over how it was sung. One thing for sure, there would have been take after take of it until her very exacting husband got what he wanted out of it.
Mike
The famous song recital by Schwarzkopf and Szell is a disappointing record. One can feel how much edition was made to highlight Frau Legge's voice over the orchestra. And then all her mannerisms, exaggerated "vibratoless" tones, the disagreeable dryness in the timbre...
Scotto developed a wobble by the end of the Seventies. Before she began abusing her voice, it had an awesome sheen and a natural vibrato which gave her tones a special intensity.
The banning of vibrato has become another dogma of modern singing. I know it must be carefully used in Lieder, but its lack creates clonal white voices. I'm such a PEST, but I have to insist on listening to early records. Lemnitz, Leider, Teschemacher, Reining,... They all were more generous with vibrato than "LP singers".
Harry.
I think you are being harsh on her. But there have always been two schools of thought over her inability to find the art that covers art.
The original Szell disc only had the Four Last Songs and I think five others. The remaining songs were recorded several years later.
Mike
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 09, 2011, 05:37:48 AM
The banning of vibrato has become another dogma of modern singing. I know it must be carefully used in Lieder, but its lack creates clonal white voices.
Yes, indeed! Choir Conductors who pride themselves on knowing everything about singing! Two over the past few years told me not to sing with vibrato, making faces as though I had leprosy and not a cultivated voice! And I don't have a wobble either.
ZB
Quote from: knight66 on August 09, 2011, 05:42:30 AM
I think you are being harsh on her.
Are you suggesting Reverend Powell should be kind and forgiving?
On the other hand, in choirs I do think vibrato should be kept on a leash: there's nothing I hate more than operatic choruses where nothing sounds in tune because the chord is oscilating around its pitches in the region of a semitone. And sometimes it's appropriate to severely limit it as here: http://grooveshark.com/#/s/Henry+Purcell+Hear+My+Prayer+O+Lord/1YTnGh?src=5 which would be unbearable with more vibrato.
I usually can't stand lieder singing where the vibrato only warms the end of each note, except in very occasional circumstances. Barbara Bonney and Sylvia McNair, both of whom I usually love when they are singing with orchestra, are sometimes (though not always) guilty of this with piano*. I forgive these two because the voices are so beautiful and the singing so intelligent. Thing is, painful though it is to admit, this is all a matter of taste, there's not actually a right answer... My dad actually hates the sound of vibrato, and I can't exactly say that he's wrong about what he likes or doesn't like.
*(e.g. Barbara Bonney released that awful recording of the Four Last Songs with piano accompaniment)
Harry, Haha, I wonder what happens then?
If we all agreed on it all there would be nothing to discuss and it is good to be made to think and rethink things.....which the recent discussions have indeed done for me.
Re vibrato: I was once asked at very short notice to sing some Britten church music. It was with a very small choir and the choir master kept at me until I had eliminated all trace of vibrato and then he was happy. At one point I did privately ask if we, women included, all had to render our balls to make him a happy bunny. He completely failed to grasp what I was getting at. We produced a sound that was flat in tone, rather than intonation. It had no energy to it.
On the same 'programme' we were doing the Barber Agnus Dei, Bruckner motets and some other unaccompanied pieces that I can't remember. This was for an all night peace vigil in the Epicsopal Cathedral in Edinburgh and lots of choirs were covering the 24 hour period in relays. Our spot was about 11pm to almost midnight.
What our mutt-master had failed to absorb and tell us was that the entire cathedral would would be lit by one livingroom standard lamp with a 100 watt bulb. Discovering this as we arrived, I whispered to some of the leaving choir asking if we could borrow their torches. No deal. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. The choir master stood under the standard lamp. Despite urgent whispered suggestions, he refused to allow us to group around him to try to see our music. We were cast to the outer darkness of the choir stalls.
The result may be predicted. I did my best to eliminate any vibrato; though I suspect that as we at various times got the giggles caused by the confusions of sound, that there was plenty of vibrato to go round. I was glad it was dark so that no one could identify my involvement. It must have sounded like we were singing Stockhausen for 50 minutes: a piece expressing the long night of the soul with hysterical interludes. AND the choir following us all had torches.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on August 09, 2011, 07:19:53 AM
Harry, Haha, I wonder what happens then?
If we all agreed on it all there would be nothing to discuss and it is good to be made to think and rethink things.....which the recent discussions have indeed done for me.
Re vibrato: I was once asked at very short notice to sing some Britten church music. It was with a very small choir and the choir master kept at me until I had eliminated all trace of vibrato and then he was happy. At one point I did privately ask if we, women included, all had to render our balls to make him a happy bunny. He completely failed to grasp what I was getting at. We produced a sound that was flat in tone, rather than intonation. It had no energy to it.
On the same 'programme' we were doing the Barber Agnus Dei, Bruckner motets and some other unaccompanied pieces that I can't remember. This was for an all night peace vigil in the Epicsopal Cathedral in Edinburgh and lots of choirs were covering the 24 hour period in relays. Our spot was about 11pm to almost midnight.
What our mutt-master had failed to absorb and tell us was that the entire cathedral would would be lit by one livingroom standard lamp with a 100 watt bulb. Discovering this as we arrived, I whispered to some of the leaving choir asking if we could borrow their torches. No deal. It was both embarrassing and hilarious. The choir master stood under the standard lamp. Despite urgent whispered suggestions, he refused to allow us to group around him to try to see our music. We were cast to the outer darkness of the choir stalls.
The result may be predicted. I did my best to eliminate any vibrato; though I suspect that as we at various times got the giggles caused by the confusions of sound, that there was plenty of vibrato to go round. I was glad it was dark so that no one could identify my involvement. It must have sounded like we were singing Stockhausen for 50 minutes: a piece expressing the long night of the soul with hysterical interludes. AND the choir following us all had torches.
Mike
Hahaha! Agreed on the discussions. It's only through debate and trying to put my thoughts down in words that my own ideas clarify for me, which is one of the main reasons why I write opera reviews for instance.
Quote from: Guido on August 09, 2011, 07:04:15 AM
On the other hand, in choirs I do think vibrato should be kept on a leash: there's nothing I hate more than operatic choruses where nothing sounds in tune because the chord is oscilating around its pitches in the region of a semitone. And sometimes it's appropriate to severely limit it as here: http://grooveshark.com/#/s/Henry+Purcell+Hear+My+Prayer+O+Lord/1YTnGh?src=5 which would be unbearable with more vibrato.
Yes, I think that is right. I have the Bohm Missa Solemnis on DG. It has an opera chorus in it and individual vlices come through, horrible. Equally, Purcell is not going to apply the same vocal sound as Berlioz. Horses for courses.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on August 09, 2011, 08:00:29 AM
Yes, I think that is right. I have the Bohm Missa Solemnis on DG. It has an opera chorus in it and individual vlices come through, horrible. Equally, Purcell is not going to apply the same vocal sound as Berlioz. Horses for courses.
Mike
Yes. And Brahms Requiem without vibrato would be horrendous.
In a related category, did anyone hear the recent heinous non vibratoed Mahler 9 from Norrington? The man's a crook, the level of intellectual disonesty and historical revisionism astonishing in its brazenness.
Quote from: Guido on August 09, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
Yes. And Brahms Requiem without vibrato would be horrendous.
Thank goodness the conductor, a very intelligent chap, was not picky about individual singers' vibrato in the Brahms Requiem, June 2009. (The picture is in the box on the left and I am a small dot in the upper half.)
ZB
If he were stupid, it would be perhaps excusable, this whole crusade that he has, but he certainly isn't as you say, which makes him a cad and a bounder. Virtually everything he says on the subject of vibrato is utterly and demonstrably false.
I don't pay much attention to what he gets up to. But I am aware of the way the tide of HIP has advanced up the shoreline of Romanticism and have assumed this is about wanting to expand their repertoire with a gimmick.
When I have heard his Bruckner I felt he had not the grasp of the gigantic architecture. I did enjoy some of his Beethoven, notably Sym 2 and 8.....but that is it.
Mike
Hilarious story, Mike. I got some similar ones from friends studying with HIP-oriented teachers.
As for historicist efforts in Romantic works, I consider them to be musicology advances to be developed musically in the future by more gifted artists. Riccardo Muti has absorbed these studies and applies them to Mozart with true musicianship.
Quote from: knight66 on August 09, 2011, 07:19:53 AM
Harry, Haha, I wonder what happens then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gIhhYHqBz4
Harry, I can only see a white square.
Mike
Quote from: Guido on August 09, 2011, 08:03:18 AM
In a related category, did anyone hear the recent heinous non vibratoed Mahler 9 from Norrington? The man's a crook, the level of intellectual disonesty and historical revisionism astonishing in its brazenness.
I have Norrington's Maher 9th and rather like the interpretation (I'm not a fan of significant vibrato). At any rate, I think your description of Norrington is far-fetched.
Quote from: Bulldog on August 09, 2011, 01:31:55 PM
I have Norrington's Maher 9th and rather like the interpretation (I'm not a fan of significant vibrato). At any rate, I think your description of Norrington is far-fetched.
You don't think his ideas on vibrato and historical claims are dishonest and revisionist?
It would be hardly surprising, as the HIP's ideas about vibrato in singing are fallacious. They try to dissociate singing from the so-called Manuel García's School, but García in fact invented nothing. He just put in order the knowledge that had come down to him (through his father) from the Eighteenth Century Masters. So it's very doubtful that in operas prior to García vibrato must be avoided.
Quote from: Guido on August 09, 2011, 01:48:10 PM
You don't think his ideas on vibrato and historical claims are dishonest and revisionist?
My concern is what I think about his recorded performances. For example, I love HIP and period instruments, not for any notions of historical accuracy but because of the enjoyment I derive. However, I doubt very much that Norrington thinks his ideas lack honesty.
One can be honestly boring, for that matter.
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 09, 2011, 02:05:06 PM
It would be hardly surprising, as the HIP's ideas about vibrato in singing are fallacious. They try to dissociate singing from the so-called Manuel García's School, but García in fact invented nothing. He just put in order the knowledge that had come down to him (through his father) from the Eighteenth Century Masters. So it's very doubtful that in operas prior to García vibrato must be avoided.
It's nice to hear some common sense on the vibrato issue. I read the above in Cornelius Reid's
Bel Canto who backed up his arguments with more than hearsay.
Who said that "Tradition is the last bad performance"?
Janet
I read this information in Rodolfo Celletti's "Il canto". He devoted one chapter to uncover some of the HIP's distortions and the essentially bad singing they promote. Another counterfeit he exposes is the lack of historic background to the use of the so-called countertenors in roles which where conceived for castrati.
It's an interesting book, but its warnings have become cruel reality since its publication in 1989.
Quote from: Harry Powell on August 10, 2011, 01:51:36 AM
I read this information in Rodolfo Celletti's "Il canto". He devoted one chapter to uncover some of the HIP's distortions and the essentially bad singing they promote. Another counterfeit he exposes is the lack of historic background to the use of the so-called countertenors in roles which where conceived for castrati.
It's an interesting book, but its warnings have become cruel reality since its publication in 1989.
Thanks for the name of the book. Actually, I'd like to order it. I think I can manage the Italian.
It was really amusing to see the blurb of a recital on TV of a countertenor featuring arias of "great castrati".
Monochromatic voices are boring to me even with all their 3 registers. Excluding the
voce di petto leaves a truncated middle voice and a lengthy but saccharine
falsetto. This was never
bel canto.
ZB
You should try either Abebooks.com or Alibris.com, since the book has been out of print for a number of years. Celletti was an integral italianate critic, I think some of his remarks will puzzle Anglo-Saxon readers but you will appreciate his explanations of covering and joining registers.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on August 10, 2011, 06:53:28 AM
Monochromatic voices are boring to me even with all their 3 registers. Excluding the voce di petto leaves a truncated middle voice and a lengthy but saccharine falsetto. This was never bel canto.
Yes, YES, YES! Do you know how difficult is becoming to read or listen to such opinions? The public's taste has been perverted to such an extent that singing without chest resonance is acceptable for the first time in the History of singing! Still, I must admit some of the last batch of CT's have improved a lot. Give Bejun Mehta a chance.
Harry.
The book Il Canto apparently has been translated into English. By the description it seems like the same book, fascinating, too...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Bel-Canto-Clarendon-Paperbacks/dp/0198166419/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313041550&sr=1-4
ZB
That's another one. "Storia del belcanto" has a more musicological approach. Very interesting reading, but "Il canto" is more controversial (and funny).