GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: toucan on March 12, 2011, 08:11:00 AM

Title: .
Post by: toucan on March 12, 2011, 08:11:00 AM
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                .
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Mandryka on March 27, 2011, 01:02:29 PM
Outstanding sequence of the three Petrarc Sonnets here
[asin]B0000041UJ[/asin]
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: The new erato on March 27, 2011, 01:30:56 PM
Very timely post! I have this:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CDA67782.jpg)

first volume in a planned complete series nearly at the top of my to-listen-to pile.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on March 27, 2011, 03:18:10 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 27, 2011, 01:02:29 PM
Outstanding sequence of the three Petrarc Sonnets here
[asin]B0000041UJ[/asin]

That set has the interest of including "Io vidi in terra" but pales when you listen to Pavarotti's earlier live recordings of "Benedetto sia il giorno" and "Pace non trovo". There's a 1978 broadcast from German TV which defies description.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2011, 12:27:44 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on March 27, 2011, 03:18:10 PM
That set has the interest of including "Io vidi in terra" but pales when you listen to Pavarotti's earlier live recordings of "Benedetto sia il giorno" and "Pace non trovo". There's a 1978 broadcast from German TV which defies description.

Ah -- you've made me interested  :)

Can you give me a link to this description defying broadcast? Or failing that, to other earlier lives.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on March 28, 2011, 04:16:44 AM
Of course I can. Here you have two posts from my blog (with comments in Spanish):

http://estanochebarralibre.blogspot.com/2007/09/benedetto-sial-giorno-el-mese-e-lanno.html
http://estanochebarralibre.blogspot.com/2007/11/pavarotti-en-recital.html

When Pavarotti sang like that he was the best tenor in the world.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszts Lieder?
Post by: MishaK on March 28, 2011, 07:15:22 AM
For proper German, capitalize all nouns and no apostrophe for the genitive -s. I.e.: Liebst du Listzs Lieder?  ;)
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on March 28, 2011, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: toucan on March 28, 2011, 10:04:23 AM
For proper listening experience find better singers than the superficial, showy, vulgar, loud and therefore popular Pavarotti.... :-*

Wow, you are a true comedian!
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Florestan on March 29, 2011, 03:53:16 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on March 28, 2011, 12:44:45 PM
Wow, you are a true comedian!

He's far from being funny. He just like to throw bombs in a crowded place and then run away never looking back.  Not worth more of your time than needed to read its posts.  ;D
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: The new erato on March 29, 2011, 04:01:08 AM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on March 29, 2011, 03:53:16 AM
He's far from being funny. He just like to throw bombs in a crowded place and then run away never looking back.  Not worth more of your time than needed to read its posts.  ;D
Good advice. All boards have some of these, as you are new you can save some time (and frustration) by listening to this.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on March 29, 2011, 06:33:04 AM
I was considering the possibility of a mere troll, but also that of a false connoisseur who has a superficial knowledge of Pavarotti's career.

Quote from: toucan on March 29, 2011, 04:47:47 AM
For good taste and intelligence, avoid internet morons...

Good advice. Goobdye and good riddance.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Florestan on March 29, 2011, 06:42:37 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on March 29, 2011, 06:33:04 AM
a superficial knowledge of Pavarotti's career.

I see nothing wrong in Pavarotti's being both a consummate performer and a popular one. Actually, I think this is an ideal state of things, when someone achieves popular status without in the least compromising his artistry.

Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on March 29, 2011, 07:01:04 AM
Well, it's a complex matter. I indeed think that Pavarotti compromised his artistry when he devoted to performing in non-operatic venues. He became a singer interested just in pleasing his fans and singing in a recognizable but superficial way (the comparison with crooners it's obvious). He was also in decline and took advantage of the microphone. The problem is to ignore how good he was during his first twenty years of career: one of the few postwar tenors to revive Golden Age singing.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: The new erato on March 29, 2011, 07:08:43 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on March 29, 2011, 07:01:04 AM
Well, it's a complex matter. I indeed think that Pavarotti compromised his artistry when he devoted to performing in non-operatic venues. He became a singer interested just in pleasing his fans and singing in a recognizable but superficial way (the comparison with crooners it's obvious). He was also in decline and took advantage of the microphone. The problem is to ignore how good he was during his first twenty years of career: one of the few postwar tenors to revive Golden Age singing.
Yes...wondered if to post along these lines earlier, now you made it unneccessary!
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Florestan on March 29, 2011, 07:12:21 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on March 29, 2011, 07:01:04 AM
Well, it's a complex matter. I indeed think that Pavarotti compromised his artistry when he devoted to performing in non-operatic venues.

Well, as you said he was already in decline --- I am more than willing to see this as a conscientious sacrifice in order to attract more audience to opera (the lucrative side of the whole thing notwithstanding).  :)

What do you think of Placido Domingo / Jose Carreras in the same respect?

Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Florestan on March 29, 2011, 07:24:27 AM
Quote from: toucan on March 29, 2011, 07:17:15 AM
A thread devoted to a man - Liszt - who let go of earthly vanities,

Are you being serious? Liszt (alongside Paganini) invented the one-man-show to impress the faint-hearted bourgeoisie; his body of works features, alongisde truly divine and spiritually lifting compositions, the most bombastic, vulgar and popular-appealing pastiches one could think of; he tasted all earthly pleasures, physical love being not the least of them --- and you would us believe he "let go of early vanities"? Well, yes, he did --- but only after trying them all.  ;D
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Florestan on March 29, 2011, 10:21:49 AM
Quote from: toucan on March 29, 2011, 07:34:58 AM
As suggested in the opening post, the deepened and pessimistic Liszt of the end is obviously and regretably little known.

Little known by whom? Certainly not by Liszt lovers.

Quote
Liszt tasted all earthly pleasures because he could.

This is true of many people, nothing peculiar to Liszt.

Quote
he had the good heart to be destroyed within by the deaths of his children

This is a common human trait, nothing peculiar to Liszt either.

Quote
To enjoy life while one can, and then to be deepened by disappointment and experience: a perfect life.

Perfect? Would you be willing to trade the life of your children for a "deepening" experience?
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on March 29, 2011, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on March 29, 2011, 07:12:21 AM
Well, as you said he was already in decline --- I am more than willing to see this as a conscientious sacrifice in order to attract more audience to opera (the lucrative side of the whole thing notwithstanding).  :)

What do you think of Placido Domingo / Jose Carreras in the same respect?

Well, Domingo has followed Pavarotti's example to the letter (for him the Pav was an obsession). As a matter of fact he's extended his career for the last twenty years relying on the same principle of being a recognizable rather than a truly personal singer. One has just to study his singing to realise that he just exploits the beauty of his timbre and is faithful to a number of habits which his fans always expect to hear.

Carreras ruined his voice before he could follow these steps.

I never cared too much for these singers, anyway. They lacked the classical-schooled technique that Pavarotti boasted.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: The new erato on March 30, 2011, 11:03:15 PM
Quote from: Il Conte Rodolfo on March 29, 2011, 07:24:27 AM
Are you being serious? Liszt (alongside Paganini) invented the one-man-show to impress the faint-hearted bourgeoisie; his body of works features, alongisde truly divine and spiritually lifting compositions, the most bombastic, vulgar and popular-appealing pastiches one could think of; he tasted all earthly pleasures, physical love being not the least of them --- and you would us believe he "let go of early vanities"? Well, yes, he did --- but only after trying them all.  ;D
In short, he was the Mick Jagger of the time.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Florestan on March 31, 2011, 06:58:55 AM
Quote from: The new erato on March 30, 2011, 11:03:15 PM
In short, he was the Mick Jagger of the time.

Has Mick Jagger joined the Franciscans? Wow!  :o  ;D
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Mandryka on April 01, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on March 28, 2011, 04:16:44 AM
Of course I can. Here you have two posts from my blog (with comments in Spanish):

http://estanochebarralibre.blogspot.com/2007/09/benedetto-sial-giorno-el-mese-e-lanno.html
http://estanochebarralibre.blogspot.com/2007/11/pavarotti-en-recital.html

When Pavarotti sang like that he was the best tenor in the world.

Well -- what a glorious recording! I can't thank you enough. As you say, it defies description. The whole thing.

I have taken the sound from the video to FLAC. It just means that I can play it easily through my hi-fi. I'm happy to post the file here if you have no objection and if anyone is interested in having it.

I saw him a couple of times -- Rodolfo and Indomineo. Both unforgettable.

Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Harry Powell on April 01, 2011, 12:12:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 01, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
Well -- what a glorious recording! I can't thank you enough. As you say, it defies description. The whole thing.

I have taken the sound from the video to FLAC. It just means that I can play it easily through my hi-fi. I'm happy to post the file here if you have no objection and if anyone is interested in having it.

I saw him a couple of times -- Rodolfo and Indomineo. Both unforgettable.

I will happily download it too! It's not a comercial recording so I presume that won't cause problems.
When did you see the Pav? I guess the "Idomeneo" was at the MET.
Title: Re: Liebst du Liszt's lieder?
Post by: Mandryka on April 02, 2011, 08:38:27 AM
Quote from: Harry Powell on April 01, 2011, 12:12:27 PM
I will happily download it too! It's not a comercial recording so I presume that won't cause problems.
When did you see the Pav? I guess the "Idomeneo" was at the MET.

Ha -- I saw him in in San Francisco with the Puccini -- late in his career (1990s). And The Mozart was at the Met.

Here's the FLAC

http://www.mediafire.com/?ijidb992kl1rq

I think it's hard to sing Liszt -- you need to combine refinement and total frankness. That seems to me exactly what Pavi can do.  Another singer who I love in Liszt is Thomas Hampson -- there's a fine selection on a CD with some Wagner and Berlioz. Here is in an an astonishing performance of La Tombe et la Rose

http://rapidshare.com/files/359749970/Hampson__Franz_Liszt_-_La_tombe_et_la_rose__G285G539.rar

There are a couple of oldies I love too. I think that this performance of O komm 'im Traum by Joseph Schwarz is interesting for its intensity


http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=d496a03

And this extremely early performance of a couple of Liszt songs by Karl Erb will not be to everyone's taste -- the timbre, you know. But I love it:

http://www.youtube.com/v/rGuDoUCuHR0


But really Hampson and Pavi are my favourites