Hi everyone,
Does anyone know of any recordings of Schumann's Frauenliebe und -leben performed by a male singer?
For that matter, how do you feel about the idea of this song cycle being performed by a male? Any opinions?
Thanks!
Quote from: TheJoe on April 13, 2011, 09:47:24 PM
Hi everyone,
Does anyone know of any recordings of Schumann's Frauenliebe und -leben performed by a male singer?
For that matter, how do you feel about the idea of this song cycle being performed by a male? Any opinions?
Thanks!
Given the title and without changing the words, I do not see any justifiable logic in using a male singer for this song cycle.
Quote from: springrite on April 13, 2011, 10:06:21 PM
Given the title and without changing the words, I do not see any justifiable logic in using a male singer for this song cycle.
Well, back in Schumann's time, singers such as the baritone Julius Stockhausen would often perform the cycle, accompanied by the likes of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms. Also, considering that the original cycle of poems and the song cycle setting were composed by men, and could therefore possibly be considered an expression of a man's fantasy, I personally could imagine it being convincingly performed by a male singer...perhaps with the proper presentation/explanation.
Quote from: TheJoe on April 13, 2011, 10:12:31 PM
Well, back in Schumann's time, singers such as the baritone Julius Stockhausen would often perform the cycle, accompanied by the likes of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms. Also, considering that the original cycle of poems and the song cycle setting were composed by men, and could therefore possibly be considered an expression of a man's fantasy, I personally could imagine it being convincingly performed by a male singer...perhaps with the proper presentation/explanation.
Then change the title.
There was also a time when castrati were used on stage. We don't do that anymore. I can only take
"HIP" so far.
Quote from: springrite on April 13, 2011, 10:16:16 PM
Then change the title.
There was also a time when castrati were used on stage. We don't do that anymore. I can only take "HIP" so far.
Thanks for the insightful input.
So far I've managed to find one instance of a male performing this song cycle - baritone Matthias Goerne, as described in these now ancient but still interesting articles:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E1DE163EF935A35752C1A9639C8B63&pagewanted=2 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E1DE163EF935A35752C1A9639C8B63&pagewanted=2)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/3651564/I-understand-how-to-be-a-woman.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/3651564/I-understand-how-to-be-a-woman.html)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandjazzmusic/3651862/Crossing-the-border-between-the-sexes.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandjazzmusic/3651862/Crossing-the-border-between-the-sexes.html)
Personally (though this is just an opinion), I don't see any reason why the cycle shouldn't be performed by a male singer. And particularly if it's Goerne - that's something I'd like to hear. ;D After all, both Schumann and Chamisso were males (at least AFAIK). So the "voice" of the text is actually that of a man imagining a woman. Plus, there is already so much singing repertoire that is performed by both male and female singers (though perhaps a lot of it isn't this much "gender-specific"). Fischer-Dieskau's reaction seems a bit strong... ???
I personally consider very unlikely that a singer might reach the same fantastic world where Chamisso and Schumann dwelled when composing the words or the music (I mean, a man imagining a woman's feelings). Then we should consider the insurmountable difficulties with the singular writing that a baritone would face and the bad effect that the transposition would have on the color of the songs.
The Wagner cycle has little if any defense since the composer wrote for a soprano.
Quote from: Maciek on April 14, 2011, 05:07:04 AM
Personally (though this is just an opinion), I don't see any reason why the cycle shouldn't be performed by a male singer. And particularly if it's Goerne - that's something I'd like to hear. ;D After all, both Schumann and Chamisso were males (at least AFAIK). So the "voice" of the text is actually that of a man imagining a woman.
I would think the voice in the text is that of the woman the man is imagining not that of the man who is imagining.
Well, "voice" is ambiguous in this context - which is precisely why I used that word. Some people will read the poems, imagining all the while that they are reading something "written" by a woman. Others will be constantly aware that it's a figment of a man's imagination. Both readings are valid, it's just a matter of narrowing down or widening the context. It might even be argued that neither reading has precedence over the other, they just frame the text differently. The "figment" one has a "wider frame" - it takes more into account, including metatextual (or paratextual) information such as the author's gender. Now, I personally would argue that a male voice singing Schumann's cycle is simply a correlate of that "wider" reading of the poems (plus various complications due to the fact that this was originally written for female voice in the technical/musical sense). Certainly, some might find it offensive. But then, some will also find it offensive that a man is writing a set of poems where the speaking subject is a woman.
Another way of looking at the whole matter: it may also be boiled down to what usually constitutes a HIP discussion. How offensive is it to play on a modern piano music written before the piano was invented? Your mileage may vary. Some think there's no problem either way, others think that one of the options is preposterous.
Personally, but again, this is just my opinion, I don't see a definitive argument either for or against a male singing Schumann's cycle. I can see arguments, but no clincher (so to speak). And that's why I don't see any reason why the cycle shouldn't be performed by a male singer.
(I'll probably keep pondering the matter in my spare time, though. So, who knows, maybe I'll change my mind?)
At first glance, I thought....NO. But such singers as Fassbaender have sung Winteriser with great success. David Daniels recorded Les Nuits d'ete including the songs Berlioz assigned to female voices and that 'cycle' is normally sung by women, despite some being originally assigned to men.
I would have to hear it and then decide; it would always be a niche market concept. The Schumann songs are sometimes decried as being outmoded in that the woman perceives her life to be lived through and for her man. I wonder what new light a man might throw on the topic?
Mike
Off-topic: Fortunately, Schumann's masterpiece trascends the mere concept of mode. If audiences aren't prepared to make the effort to accept the Romantic conventions in "Frauenliebe" as part of the artistic experience it's their problem, not Schumann's.
As for women successfully performing "Winterreise" and "Kindertotenlieder" I'd like to point out that they're for the most part mezzos or contraltos. The contralto voice has a solemn and ambiguous color which can be exploited in these cycles. There's a true tradition backing the contralto "en travesti". No tradition of baritones singing as women.
Thank you for the lecture.
Don't mention it. I'm not a forumer of vague remarks.
Resuming the lecture, I think there's a simple argument which clinches the discussion. Don't you really think ridiculous to imagine a baritone singing words like "Er, der Herrlichste von allen, Wie so milde, wie so gut!", "Nach der Schwestern Spiele, Nicht begehr' ich mehr" or "Ich drücke dich fromm an die Lippen, Dich fromm an das Herze mein", not to mention "Helft mir, ihr Schwestern". Ridiculous not just for the words but for the way Schumann set them to music and how they'd sound in the robust voice of a baritone. That was my first reaction and to tell the truth I come back to it in spite of more elaborate arguments.
Yes, I do think it highly unlikely that it would prove to be other than jarring. However, as pointed out, moving in the opposite direction has proved successful and enlightening and the low voice point is a red herring.
I also thought about female Hamlets and men playing women's roles in Shakespeare. The latter an old and now very rare tradition, the former still occasionally done and seemingly proving to be successful beyond the mere modish. So my mind was not entirely closed, though I am not offering to sponsor any male recordings of the Schumann as an experiment.
Mike
Well, I presume that a study of Schumann's score would tell us that vocal color and womanly nuances were anything but irrelevant when he composed the music.
Quote from: Harry Powell on April 16, 2011, 04:24:15 PM
Resuming the lecture, I think there's a simple argument which clinches the discussion. Don't you really think ridiculous to imagine a baritone singing words like "Er, der Herrlichste von allen, Wie so milde, wie so gut!", "Nach der Schwestern Spiele, Nicht begehr' ich mehr" or "Ich drücke dich fromm an die Lippen, Dich fromm an das Herze mein", not to mention "Helft mir, ihr Schwestern".
Well, the problem is that it's hardly "natural" for a
woman to start singing about herself and her experiences in verse with piano accompaniment. Which is why this argument doesn't clinch anything for me. From a certain point of view, it is just as hilarious to imagine a
woman singing those exact lines. And, of course, just as hilarious to think that it was a
man who wrote them.
Then Lieder as a genre are hilarious. Forgive me, but this is nothing but a red herring.
Well, actually, that should mean that we agree. Though I'm under the impression that we don't, really. ;D My point, anyway, was that if the concept of lieder as a genre is not hilarious, then there shouldn't be anything hilarious about a man singing a woman's thoughts either. Both concepts are similarly "realistic". Or rather: "unrealistic". (Well, the reasoning went in the other direction, but I'm reversing it now, since I think it works both ways.)
But I can state my views in a simpler way (sorry, I'll use the same quote again):
Quote from: Harry Powell on April 16, 2011, 04:24:15 PM
Don't you really think ridiculous to imagine a baritone singing words like "Er, der Herrlichste von allen, Wie so milde, wie so gut!"...
I don't. I think it goes against convention, that's all.
But, clearly, this is where we differ. ;D
Though conventions can be unconventional too. I'm starting to muse off topic here, but... Women Hamlets (a much more traditional notion, as Mike pointed out) are probably not ridiculous either, at least not
in principle. But then, men Hamlets are not ridiculous in principle, and yet sometimes they do come out completely ridiculous.
(Incidentally, I've only seen a woman-plays-Hamlet staging once, actually only bits of it, and did not like it very much.)
But these are arguments
against your "clincher" argument
against male performances of
Frauenliebe und Leben. More important to me is the argument
for such a performance, which I already stated earlier on: I like the way it would go with a certain interpretation of the literary text.
(BTW, I have to say I'm really enjoying this thread - much more than I would have expected. Thanks.)
I think the difficulty lies in a man seemingly feminising himself in order to express what is meant to come out of the mind of a woman....despite it coming out of the mind of a male poet.
In the novel there is this frequent quest for the writer to provide an authentic voice of a character of the opposite sex. There may be a space in which the sex of the performer becomes irrelevant, it is whether they can convey the text meaningfully to the extent we can suspend our normal mindset.
Mike
I can see a strong argument in favor. By modern standards the text is so silly, it is hard to imagine a woman expressing such sentiments It is somewhat easier to imagine a man imaging a woman expressing such sentiments.
Mind you, I would rather listen to this than listen and watch. A disembodied voice please; no chance to observe anyeven inadvertent simpering.
Mike
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 18, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
I can see a strong argument in favor. By modern standards the text is so silly, it is hard to imagine a woman expressing such sentiments It is somewhat easier to imagine a man imaging a woman expressing such sentiments.
OK, I have to admit now that the thought has crossed my mind: if I wanted to listen to an
ironic interpretation of Schumann's cycle, I would stand for nothing less than a male performer. ;D
I think the debate is going a bit astray. Let's turn to specific aspects: that's to say, to the musical means Schumann used to depict the poet's words. I'm reading Schumann's original score: the writing is rather low-lying for the woman voice as it frequently goes under the stave. I can't imagine the full chest tones of a baritone voicing those passages. To express the melancholy and gentleness within the words Schumann must have thought in the smoothness that only a woman cant obtain by means of the mixed tones. Another example: I'm not a musician but I've grown used to identify a score's specific demands on each string - listen to the grupetti in "Er, der Herlichste von Allen. That's not writing for a male voice. It's that simple. Now if you use a voice which will sound either jarring or parodic in those moments you're betraying Schumann's intentions.
That may all be. And then again - maybe not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I understand you haven't heard Goerne sing this.
The other thing: but Goerne is a musician. 0:)
As to Schumann's intentions: I've noticed that composers tend to be very open to new interpretations of their work. Two examples that came to mind: Chopin's fascination with how Liszt played his music. And Szymanowski allowing his sister to sing the tenor part in his 3rd Symphony. (I'm not saying that Schumann would approve of an ironic vision of his work - I'm just saying that composers are human beings who can be convinced about all sorts of things. And in many cases that is a good thing.)
Quote from: Maciek on April 19, 2011, 12:13:13 PM
That may all be. And then again - maybe not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I understand you haven't heard Goerne sing this.
Now you simply keep saying "it may be and it may not"... That's not an argument to justify playing Brahms' Violin Concerto on a Cello.
Goerne is a musician... and haven't repeated the experience.
By the way, DFD's also a musician... And didn't wait to taste the pudding.
I'll be looking it up to see if Liszt has a transcription of this stuff so I can hear it without voice at all.
:D
Quote from: Harry Powell on April 19, 2011, 01:04:23 PM
Now you simply keep saying "it may be and it may not"... That's not an argument to justify playing Brahms' Violin Concerto on a Cello.
Goerne is a musician... and haven't repeated the experience.
By the way, DFD's also a musician... And didn't wait to taste the pudding.
My saying "it may be and may not" is simply a gentle way of saying I don't find what you said convincing. I think it's unfair to dismiss a performance offhand, based on how you
imagine it would sound like. I'd hate to be treated that way if I were a performer.
Speaking of cello, one of the first performances of Szymanowski's 3rd Symphony was with the tenor part played by a solo cello. So there you go.
Obviously, I like the concept of a guy singing this cycle - I find it original and very interesting. And I like the way it lays bare certain conventions - the artifice of the whole singing situation and the artifice of this particular literary text. The fact that it goes against expectations (in a meaningful way) is exactly what I like about it. I am not saying Goerne did it well - never heard him singing it - but I believe he had the right to do it and there was nothing inherently wrong in the idea.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 19, 2011, 01:16:39 PM
I'll be looking it up to see if Liszt has a transcription of this stuff so I can hear it without voice at all.
Actually - that's a good point. A non-vocal transcription of a vocal work goes much further than Goerne went. It does away with the literary text and the subtleties of the vocal writing. And yet composers do it. And one rarely hears the comment that it's "ridiculous, stupid and wrong".
It's very confortable to use the "it may and not" motto to every single argument I expose, but it's not a real debate.
I had something to say about the final bars in the seventh Lied, but anticipating your answer... I retire.
Quote from: Maciek on April 19, 2011, 02:08:39 PM
Actually - that's a good point. A non-vocal transcription of a vocal work goes much further than Goerne went. It does away with the literary text and the subtleties of the vocal writing. And yet composers do it. And one rarely hears the comment that it's "ridiculous, stupid and wrong".
Isn't there any difference between the act of performing and that of arranging another composition?
I see you are a consummate expert in red herrings, my dear fellow.