GMG Classical Music Forum

On the "2-Symphony Composer" thread, Sgt. Rock stated as follows:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2011, 07:37:17 AM
Yeah, I'm way into fragments. Love me some fragments  ;D

So what fragment is your favorite?

Not a symphony but Schoenberg's Jakobsleiter certainly springs to mind, outside the obvious Mahler/Bruckner/Schubert contenders of course.

Gotta vote for the greatest Chemist/Composer of all time!

An impossible choice for me: both Mahler and Bruckner are part of my personal trinity and I love both symphonies. I really like the Elgar too. I can't pick Schubert because I don't feel it is a fragment. It seems perfect as is. So I'll vote other: Stenhammar  ;D


Sarge

Reminds me we need a thread about favorite symphonic fragments from ZERO symphony composers.

Even if you are restricting to the most obvious, the Mozart Requiem would seem like an obvious option.  I picked Schubert.

Nothing comes close to Bruckner's 9th.

Quote from: haydnfan on April 20, 2011, 09:33:27 AM
Nothing comes close to Bruckner's 9th.

I'll second that.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 20, 2011, 09:30:00 AM
Even if you are restricting to the most obvious, the Mozart Requiem would seem like an obvious option.  I picked Schubert.

Yes, but for a sacred choral work. 

Not sure how to vote, as the Bruckner, Schubert, Mahler and Borodin function as self-contained full movements, essentially fully written as the composers intended, but the Elgar and Schnittke I am unsure how "finished" any of the movements were, and where the elaboration came in. Other good ones in the first group I would add are Tubin and Burgmüller - very fine solitary movements which work well on their own. I wasn't even aware the Tubin was unfinished at first so complete did it feel to me.

I find the Elgar 3rd and Mahler 10th to be the most miraculous rescue acts, given how much wonderful musical content was brought to the public that might have risked never being heard, so I'll go for Elgar as I'm sure Mahler will get a billion votes.

Quote from: Bulldog on April 20, 2011, 09:42:52 AM
Yes, but for a sacred choral work.

Noted.

I must needs vote for Herr Bruckner. The 9th stomps on just about any other symphony out there. And thank goodness he didn't finish it. It's perfect as is.

Quote from: Bulldog on April 20, 2011, 09:40:17 AM
I'll second that.

Thirded. I think it's de facto finished as it is. What could follow that adagio? I've heard a completion and was not convinced by it.

Quote from: Bulldog on April 20, 2011, 09:42:52 AM
Yes, but for a sacred choral work. 

Yes, but . . . Scarps noted a choral work!

Quote from: Apollon on April 20, 2011, 10:09:54 AM
Yes, but . . . Scarps noted a choral work!

I can deal with choral works of Bach and Mozart, generally.  Works of a later vintage appeal when they invoke the spirit of those earlier times (such as Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms).  It is works of the Mahler 8 ilk that I cannot fathom.

I forgot Peter Ruzicka's ...das Gesegnete, das Verfluchte...,* which I believe was based on fragments of Allan Pettersson's 17th symphony?

*(btw what is with late 20th century German composers and all those orchestral pieces with titles beginning and ending in ellipsis?)

Quote from: Velimir on April 20, 2011, 09:54:02 AM
What could follow that adagio?

Apparently a more violent piece of Brucknerian proportions than the 8th. Ever since I came across that piece of info, that "perfectly ending with the adagio" idea was slowly pushed away by "Oh *F$#%*(, why can't I travel back in time and make that fellow finish the piece (or, perhaps, let the world know in which drawer he kept the scores) before he breathed his last!".

Quote from: Opus106 on April 20, 2011, 10:39:26 AM
Apparently a more violent piece of Brucknerian proportions than the 8th. Ever since I came across that piece of info, that "perfectly ending with the adagio" idea was slowly pushed away by "Oh *F$#%*(, why can't I travel back in time and make that fellow finish the piece (or, perhaps, let the world know in which drawer he kept the scores) before he breathed his last!".

The piece was finished, except for the coda, which had been extensively sketched.  Upon Bruckner's death his collected papers were ransacked by collectible hunters and half of Bruckner's final draft is now lost.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 20, 2011, 10:46:44 AM
Upon Bruckner's death his collected papers were ransacked by collectible hunters and half of Bruckner's final draft is now lost.

You see, if I could travel back in time, I would never let that happen. :(

Non-symphonic work nomination: Die Kunst der Fuge! :o :(

Close call between Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9, but I went with Bruckner.  At least we can hear Mahler's musical structure, although without his matchless orchestration skills... :(

Quote from: Luke on April 20, 2011, 09:05:33 AM
Not a symphony but Schoenberg's Jakobsleiter certainly springs to mind.

That, along with Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9.

Quote from: MDL on April 20, 2011, 03:08:06 PM
That, along with Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9.

Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9 are part of the poll.   ???

Anyone heard any of the various versions of the 4th movement of Bruckner 9; sketches or speculative completions? I'd be interested to have a vague idea of how Bruckner planned to finish that daunting, devastating 3rd movement.

Edit: "planned to follow", not "planned to finish", obviously. Durr.

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 20, 2011, 03:10:21 PM
Mahler 10 and Bruckner 9 are part of the poll.   ???

Yeah, I know. I voted for Mahler 10, but would have voted for Bruckner and Schoenberg as well had multiple voting been allowed and had the Schoenberg been included.

Quote from: MDL on April 20, 2011, 03:12:50 PM
Anyone heard any of the various versions of the 4th movement of Bruckner 9; sketches or speculative completions? I'd be interested to have a vague idea of how Bruckner planned to finish that daunting, devastating 3rd movement.

What I've heard indicates a finale somewhat along the lines of the 8th, but with a much higher level of dissonance. The movement climaxes with repeated fortissimo dissonances, which just stop dead to be replaced by a far more consonant coda knitting together the main themes of the symphony.

It doesn't really work, and maybe even with more time Bruckner wouldn't have been able to make it work. But it does indicate to me no lessening of musical ambition in his last months.

I like Mahler 10 a lot, but Bruckner 9 is even more magnificent.

My feelings on the question of completion of B9 is that it is an (unwitting?) insult to Bruckner to insist that the adagio is the correct conclusion. He would have disagreed!

I've only heard the Inbal performance of the finale, which was a much earlier reconstruction and performed unidiomatically IMO (making me wonder if the sketches were lacking dynamic markings). I want to believe that subsequent efforts have arrived nearer to what Bruckner in fact wrote, but it is expensive to keep up with the recordings of new editions as they come out.

The 1998 Wildner recording has been praised; subsequently there have been competing revisions of the completion.
I think the most faithful to the sketches is the 1992 Finale Realization by Samale//Philips/Cohrs/Mazzuca - Revised 2007 by Samale and Cohrs (recorded by Harding and Layer). The 2005 revision was recorded by Bosch.

Going by reviews, it seems hardly anyone has heard these recordings. This survey says Layer is the one to hear:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/bruckners-symphony-no9-finally-ifinalei-recordings-completed-ifinalei

http://www.abruckner.com/discography/symphonyno9indmino/

Quote from: eyeresist on April 20, 2011, 08:44:50 PMMy feelings on the question of completion of B9 is that it is an (unwitting?) insult to Bruckner to insist that the adagio is the correct conclusion. He would have disagreed!

Bruckner could have possibly finished this symphony had he not been so obsessed with revising his earlier symphonies. After all, he was a ruthless self-critic and also was plagued with constant self-doubt about his music. This was a blessing and a curse throughout his life. But, overall, this symphony, whether unfinished or whatever, is very near and dear to my heart. Absolutely an astonishing piece of music.

I plan to do some deeper research into Bruckner's music as it has always remained some of the finest music I ever heard, but also the composer himself has always interested me.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 20, 2011, 09:10:57 PM
Bruckner could have possibly finished this symphony had he not been so obsessed with revising his earlier symphonies.

But...

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 20, 2011, 10:46:44 AM
The piece was finished, except for the coda, which had been extensively sketched.  Upon Bruckner's death his collected papers were ransacked by collectible hunters and half of Bruckner's final draft is now lost.

See the essays by Van Der Wal and Cohrs:
http://www.abruckner.com/discography/symphonyno9indmino/

I voted for Mahler's 10th. The opening Adagio is one of his finest utterances. I love the way he pushes tonality and uses a lot of dissonance in this piece. The rest of the symphony is very fine as well, I particularly like the final movement. There is hope at the end, despite the fact that he knew that he wouldn't live much longer. I know that his 9th symphony is a more definitive work, but I find it too dark and depressing. I'd much rather listen to the 10th, imperfect as it is.

Apart from that, I'm most familiar with Schubert's 8th and Bruckner's 9th. Schubert's 8th symphony is one of my favourite works by him. Another unfinished symphony by Schubert was his 10th. I used to own the recording of the Newbould completion, and even saw this work live at Sydney University in the '90's. It's quite an enjoyable and substantial work, comparable in idiom and scope the his 9th symphony, the "Great C-Major."

Bruckner's 9th symphony, as well as his 8th, are perhaps his finest creations. But I find them way too dark and they depress the **** out of me. Having said that, I'm a huge fan of his 6th and 7th symphonies in particular.

As for the rest of the list, I have heard all the others, except the Schnittke (& may well get the ECM disc which has the finished - or reconstructed - version of that work). I'm not hugely into Borodin's or Elgar's symphonic music, I'd much rather listen to their chamber stuff, but that's another story...

I also find that the 9th is a bit too dark for regular listening, but the 8th? That's a passionate deep red! :) A bouncing scherzo, heavenly adagio and joyful finale (albeit sligthly manic).

Quote from: Sid on April 20, 2011, 11:59:53 PM
Another unfinished symphony by Schubert was his 10th. I used to own the recording of the Newbould completion, and even saw this work live at Sydney University in the '90's. It's quite an enjoyable and substantial work, comparable in idiom and scope the his 9th symphony, the "Great C-Major."

You may be thinking of the 7th? Newbould's version of the 10th has only three movements and goes for about 27.30 (Marriner recording). (The 7th has four movements and goes for 38.20.)

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 21, 2011, 12:57:27 AM
I also find that the 9th is a bit too dark for regular listening, but the 8th? That's a passionate deep red! :) A bouncing scherzo, heavenly adagio and joyful finale (albeit sligthly manic).

Who?

Quote from: haydnfan on April 21, 2011, 06:01:45 AM
Who?

Oh, sorry, I didn't notice he used dark to describe both Mahler and Bruckner - I meant the Bruckner pieces.

Quote from: eyeresist on April 21, 2011, 02:00:24 AM
You may be thinking of the 7th? Newbould's version of the 10th has only three movements and goes for about 27.30 (Marriner recording). (The 7th has four movements and goes for 38.20.)

This is the very recording of Schubert's 10th that I used to own (link to Amazon description below). It was on a quite obscure label, Ricercar. I'm sorry I got rid of it, because it was an interesting piece. Funny you mention the issue of movements. On the recording, this work consists of 4 movements, but when I saw it live at Sydney University during the late '90's, they only played 3 movements...

http://www.amazon.com/Franz-Schubert-Symphony-No-Major/dp/B000004502/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1303444777&sr=1-1

Quote from: Sid on April 20, 2011, 11:59:53 PMBruckner's 9th symphony, as well as his 8th, are perhaps his finest creations. But I find them way too dark and they depress the **** out of me.

Dark? Really? Well we all hear different things. I didn't know you feel this way about the 8th and 9th, Sid. Interesting. What exactly depresses you about them?

I Voted for the Mahler 10th :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 21, 2011, 08:08:53 PM
Dark? Really? Well we all hear different things. I didn't know you feel this way about the 8th and 9th, Sid. Interesting. What exactly depresses you about them?

Basically I feel that these two works, especially the 9th symphony, are like a story of humankind at odds with the universe. It's an epic battle in which man is reduced to the size of a pea in a vast inhospitable landscape. It's probably a wierd way of putting it, but this just about sums up how I feel. Also, the orchestral colouring is quite dark in these works. There is that brass fanfare which is quite hopeful in the final (3rd) movement of the 9th, but it's too little too late for me.

I tend to like the lighter symphonies of Bruckner & Mahler. My favourites by Bruckner are the 6th & 7th & Mahler's 4th is my favourite symphony by him...

Quote from: MDL on April 20, 2011, 03:12:50 PM
Anyone heard any of the various versions of the 4th movement of Bruckner 9; sketches or speculative completions? I'd be interested to have a vague idea of how Bruckner planned to finish that daunting, devastating 3rd movement.

Edit: "planned to follow", not "planned to finish", obviously. Durr.

I heard Harnoncourt conducting the finale sketches. It was very impressive, shame it's incomplete. The music stuck on me and haunts me...
Bruckner definately got my vote BTW.
Also the Sibelius Eight would've have been interesting i'm sure ::)

And I've always wondered what that Chopin Violin sonata would've been like...

Instead of adding an extra post, you can just modify the post you've already made. Just saying' :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 21, 2011, 08:08:53 PM
Dark? Really? Well we all hear different things.

Like Sid I too hear the "unfinished" Ninth as quite dark, and the revised Eighth has that magnificent, and depressing, Coriolan-like coda to the first movement.

The first movement of the Ninth has a cataclysmic first climax and then it never lightens up. If, as a reviewer once wrote, the Eighth's Scherzo is the sound of the engine of heaven, then surely the Ninth's Scherzo is the engine of hell. And I've always heard the Ninth's Adagio as a tragic loss of faith (or innocence): those shrieking dissonances near the end gut-wrenching.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2011, 04:09:31 AM
Like Sid I too hear the "unfinished" Ninth as quite dark, and the revised Eighth has that magnificent, and depressing, Coriolan-like coda to the first movement.

The first movement of the Ninth has a cataclysmic first climax and then it never lightens up. If, as a reviewer once wrote, the Eighth's Scherzo is the sound of the engine of heaven, then surely the Ninth's Scherzo is the engine of hell. And I've always heard the Ninth's Adagio as a tragic loss of faith (or innocence): those shrieking dissonances near the end gut-wrenching.

Sarge

I think the 9th in its three-movement truncated form is an extraordinarily dark work. Like you, I've often thought of the slow movement in terms of a loss of faith; it's purely speculative, but having heard some of the sketches for the finale I wonder if Bruckner was not building a "loss and return of faith" narrative in the work.

I once heard a bootleg of Boulez conducting the 9th, I think with the WP. I felt the outer movements were good rather than great, but the scherzo was frankly terrifying, even by Furtwangler standards.

Quote from: eyeresist on April 21, 2011, 02:00:24 AM
You may be thinking of the 7th? Newbould's version of the 10th has only three movements and goes for about 27.30 (Marriner recording). (The 7th has four movements and goes for 38.20.)

Schubert's 10th as realised by Newbould does have some of the grandeur heard in his earlier 9th imo.   And of course Beethoven must have been a huge influence on him and perhaps he had taken on that mantle in some ways after Beethoven died.

There is a possibility that Schubert's Unfinished really was and that the 2nd movement was the finished fourth movement. It would have made a lovely fourth movement in a four movement symphony. Bartok completed the last movement of his Concerto for Orchestra before all the other movements.

Quote from: RJR on June 03, 2011, 08:58:45 AM
There is a possibility that Schubert's Unfinished really was and that the 2nd movement was the finished fourth movement. It would have made a lovely fourth movement in a four movement symphony.

No. The Andante in E major is completely impossible as a last (4th) movement in this symphony. There is the reasonable supposition that the b minor movement that became an Entr'acte in Rosamunde could have been the finale. Or maybe not.
Schubert probably left more "long fragments" (i.e. complete movements or complete movements + movement fragments belonging to them) than any other well-known composer. Apparently, when others wrote sketches, he often just composed a movement or two, got stuck, and then moved on to another project.