The first four notes of Elgar's Enigma Variations are scale degree 3-1-4-2, decimal Pi. Elgar hinted at a "dark saying," which was from Sing a Song of Sixpence, "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie (Pi)". Elgar was fond of jokes, nursery rhymes, and puns. It is a perfect fit. Additionally, he placed a most unusual double bar after the first "four and twenty" black notes, even though before the end of the first phrase. He also worked in fractional Pi, 22/7, in the first four bars. In 1929, Elgar hinted that the "drop of the seventh in bars 3 and 4 should be observed." Those two sevenths are preceeded by exactly eleven notes. 11 x 2/7 = 22/7. Elgar wrote the Enigma Variations in the year following the ludicrous Indiana Pi Bill of 1897 which attempted to legislated the value of Pi. Elgar gets the last laugh.
The first several measures can be seen on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_variation, but the double bar is not shown. You can see the double bar on f the original score at imslp.org/wiki/Variations_on_an_Original_Theme_
I thought the enigma was solved in another way. Elgar himself slily said: "The theme never returns". And the solution is in that 'never'. The enigma theme is connected with the 'never' in 'never never never shall be slaves' of 'Land of Hope and Glory'.
Quote from: nimrod on May 02, 2011, 11:37:20 AM
The first four notes of Elgar's Enigma Variations are scale degree 3-1-4-2, decimal Pi. Elgar hinted at a "dark saying," which was from Sing a Song of Sixpence, "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie (Pi)". Elgar was fond of jokes, nursery rhymes, and puns. It is a perfect fit. Additionally, he placed a most unusual double bar after the first "four and twenty" black notes, even though before the end of the first phrase. He also worked in fractional Pi, 22/7, in the first four bars. In 1929, Elgar hinted that the "drop of the seventh in bars 3 and 4 should be observed." Those two sevenths are preceeded by exactly eleven notes. 11 x 2/7 = 22/7. Elgar wrote the Enigma Variations in the year following the ludicrous Indiana Pi Bill of 1897 which attempted to legislated the value of Pi. Elgar gets the last laugh.
The first several measures can be seen on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_variation, but the double bar is not shown. You can see the double bar on f the original score at imslp.org/wiki/Variations_on_an_Original_Theme_
Seems a bit far fetched. The fact that there are 24 notes before the double bar corresponds to "24 back birds baked in a pie" and pie is Pi. Does every piece of music with 24 notes in the first strain also symbolize Pi?
Quote from: nimrod on May 02, 2011, 11:37:20 AM
The first four notes of Elgar's Enigma Variations are scale degree 3-1-4-2, decimal Pi. Elgar hinted at a "dark saying," which was from Sing a Song of Sixpence, "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie (Pi)". Elgar was fond of jokes, nursery rhymes, and puns. It is a perfect fit. Additionally, he placed a most unusual double bar after the first "four and twenty" black notes, even though before the end of the first phrase. He also worked in fractional Pi, 22/7, in the first four bars. In 1929, Elgar hinted that the "drop of the seventh in bars 3 and 4 should be observed." Those two sevenths are preceeded by exactly eleven notes. 11 x 2/7 = 22/7. Elgar wrote the Enigma Variations in the year following the ludicrous Indiana Pi Bill of 1897 which attempted to legislated the value of Pi. Elgar gets the last laugh.
The first several measures can be seen on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_variation, but the double bar is not shown. You can see the double bar on f the original score at imslp.org/wiki/Variations_on_an_Original_Theme_
Good work! ;) Very Kubrick, no?
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 02, 2011, 03:31:21 PM
Seems a bit far fetched. The fact that there are 24 notes before the double bar corresponds to "24 back birds baked in a pie" and pie is Pi. Does every piece of music with 24 notes in the first strain also symbolize Pi?
I have searched and found no other music that has 24 black notes followed by a double bar before the end of the first phrase. Pi is found in three different ways in the first six bars. Could that be coincidence? Could it be coincidence that he wrote the enigma in the year following the Indiana Pi Bill of 1897? It certainly seems like too many coincidences. To me it appears intentional, especially when you look at Elgar's 1929 statement of three sentences, each having a hint at Pi, 22/7.
Interesting, but... there are other theories too,
A Mighty Fortress http://enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.com/2010/09/elgars-dark-saying-musical-checkerboard.html (http://enigmathemeunmasked.blogspot.com/2010/09/elgars-dark-saying-musical-checkerboard.html), very interesting, Elgar loved complex cyphers, and it's in his music abundantly.
Rule Brittania http://www.stereophile.com/content/elgars-enigma (http://www.stereophile.com/content/elgars-enigma) though i don't go along with these theories.
Pi / Sing A Song Of Sixpence http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3285 (http://www.brightcecilia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3285) and of course the one proposed here.
Elgar actually believed the audience would easily solve it at its premiere, and kept up the Enigma when people could not get it.
My personal solution to the Enigma, which is very simple but which I am (naturally) convinced of, is that Elgar's true theme was this little tune (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiKOhOzQyZg).
One of the more boring theories is that it's actually a theme from the slow mvt. of Mozart's "Prague" Symphony (#38). The NY Times even published an article stating this some years ago. More likely a coincidence, as I can't imagine what significance this obscure set of notes would have for Elgar.
Quote from: nimrod on May 02, 2011, 11:37:20 AM
The first four notes of Elgar's Enigma Variations are scale degree 3-1-4-2, decimal Pi. Elgar hinted at a "dark saying," which was from Sing a Song of Sixpence, "Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie (Pi)". Elgar was fond of jokes, nursery rhymes, and puns. It is a perfect fit. Additionally, he placed a most unusual double bar after the first "four and twenty" black notes, even though before the end of the first phrase. He also worked in fractional Pi, 22/7, in the first four bars. In 1929, Elgar hinted that the "drop of the seventh in bars 3 and 4 should be observed." Those two sevenths are preceeded by exactly eleven notes. 11 x 2/7 = 22/7. Elgar wrote the Enigma Variations in the year following the ludicrous Indiana Pi Bill of 1897 which attempted to legislated the value of Pi. Elgar gets the last laugh.
The first several measures can be seen on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_variation, but the double bar is not shown. You can see the double bar on f the original score at imslp.org/wiki/Variations_on_an_Original_Theme_
I suppose it's of no importance to your little theory that the value of pi, worked out just to the first 8 decimals, is 3.14159265, not 3.142, or that the double bar (2 thin parallel lines, as opposed to one thin and one thick) that so interests you is found not only after the theme, but after every variation, and serves solely as a demarcation between the sections. (Compare, for example, the finale of Beethoven's 9th, where the same || type of double bar is found between each section of the cantata.)
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2011, 02:45:25 PM
I thought the enigma was solved in another way. Elgar himself slily said: "The theme never returns". And the solution is in that 'never'. The enigma theme is connected with the 'never' in 'never never never shall be slaves' of 'Land of Hope and Glory'.
But if the Pi theory were correct (it's fun, I'll give it that!) 'the theme never returns' could just as well refer to the fact that the Pi itself never repeats, going on infinitely to the nth decimal place.
'Never never never shall be slaves' is in Rule Britannia, anyway, not Land of Hope and Glory. And it is indeed a sequence of rising thirds, though major minor, not minor major as in the Engimas.
Quote from: Velimir on May 03, 2011, 03:40:19 AM
One of the more boring theories is that it's actually a theme from the slow mvt. of Mozart's "Prague" Symphony (#38). The NY Times even published an article stating this some years ago. More likely a coincidence, as I can't imagine what significance this obscure set of notes would have for Elgar.
I vaguely recall, years ago, hearing that Elgar had been to a performance of the Prague shortly before starting work on the Enigmas. But I may be misremembering.
Quote from: Luke on May 03, 2011, 04:40:52 AM
I vaguely recall, years ago, hearing that Elgar had been to a performance of the Prague shortly before starting work on the Enigmas. But I may be misremembering.
The tale I vaguely recall is that the Prague symphony was, in fact, on the same programme as the very first performance of Enigma.
Quote from: Luke on May 03, 2011, 04:39:02 AM
'Never never never shall be slaves' is in Rule Britannia, anyway, not Land of Hope and Glory. And it is indeed a sequence of rising thirds, though major minor, not minor major as in the Engimas.
The line "Never, never, never, never, never" also occurs in the final act of King Lear, signifying beyond doubt that Shakespeare had the Enigma Variations in mind when he wrote that tragedy.
Well, you've got me convinced!
Quote from: Luke on May 03, 2011, 04:39:02 AM
But if the Pi theory were correct (it's fun, I'll give it that!) 'the theme never returns' could just as well refer to the fact that the Pi itself never repeats, going on infinitely to the nth decimal place.
'Never never never shall be slaves' is in Rule Britannia, anyway, not Land of Hope and Glory. And it is indeed a sequence of rising thirds, though major minor, not minor major as in the Engimas.
D'oh! Of course... :o
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 05:15:04 AM
The line "Never, never, never, never, never" also occurs in the final act of King Lear, signifying beyond doubt that Shakespeare had the Enigma Variations in mind when he wrote that tragedy.
He remains a prophetic writer.
Quote from: nimrod on May 03, 2011, 02:14:49 AM
I have searched and found no other music that has 24 black notes followed by a double bar before the end of the first phrase. Pi is found in three different ways in the first six bars. Could that be coincidence? Could it be coincidence that he wrote the enigma in the year following the Indiana Pi Bill of 1897? It certainly seems like too many coincidences. To me it appears intentional, especially when you look at Elgar's 1929 statement of three sentences, each having a hint at Pi, 22/7.
The second minuet of Bach's English suite no 4 has 24 black notes before the double bar. Besides that, what evidence is there that the "dark saying" is "tell a tale of sixpence?"
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 04:02:41 AM
I suppose it's of no importance to your little theory that the value of pi, worked out just to the first 8 decimals, is 3.14159265, not 3.142.
But if you round pi to 3 decimals, you get 3.142 ( |pi - 3.142| < |pi - 3.141| ) .
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 03, 2011, 06:08:24 AM
The second minuet of Bach's English suite no 4 has 24 black notes before the double bar. Besides that, what evidence is there that the "dark saying" is "tell a tale of sixpence?"
An excellent question. The defining difference is that Bach's double bar comes at the end of a phrase, but Elgar's is inserted for no apparent reason, except to deliniate that the 24 black notes have an enigmatic significance. The line from "sixpence" also has a pun about Pi which is very Elgar as he was known to be fond of nursery rhymes and puns.
Quote from: nimrod on May 03, 2011, 11:44:28 AM
An excellent question. The defining difference is that Bach's double bar comes at the end of a phrase, but Elgar's is inserted for no apparent reason, except to deliniate that the 24 black notes have an enigmatic significance. The line from "sixpence" also has a pun about Pi which is very Elgar as he was known to be fond of nursery rhymes and puns.
I will not claim that this theory can be disproved, but it relies on the pretence that various capricious associations are obvious or unambiguous. The double bar, for instance, marks the end of the first strain of the melody seems perfectly normal to me, I see numerous instances of double bars at similar points in the score, such as on page 4. The assumption that the "dark saying" is "Sing a song of sixpence" strikes me as entirely arbitrary. The fact that the two descending sevenths mean 11 times 2 divided by 7 seems equally capricious. The most convincing argument to me is that people who knew Elgar at the were absolutely sure that the "enigma" was a musical theme which could be played as a counter-melody to the played theme. With that assumption all of the statements which the Pi theory interpret in some mysterious, symbolic manner, are correct in their normal sense.
I like the observation that I came across many years ago (and I don't remember the source) that the real enigma of Elgar's piece is why it's called the Enigma Variations.
Well, it is. And while Elgar may indeed have loved nursery rhymes and puns, he doubtless wrote music for the same reason that any composer writes music, because he thinks in tones and rhythms and harmonies and such. (Most composers nowadays being more interested in the "and such," of course.)
Quote from: 71 dB on May 03, 2011, 10:22:39 AM
But if you round pi to 3 decimals, you get 3.142 ( |pi - 3.142| < |pi - 3.141| ) .
But why stop at three decimals? After all, if the theme were truly based on pi, I would think Elgar would want to stretch it out as long as he could.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 03, 2011, 01:20:48 PM
I will not claim that this theory can be disproved, but it relies on the pretence that various capricious associations are obvious or unambiguous. The double bar, for instance, marks the end of the first strain of the melody seems perfectly normal to me, I see numerous instances of double bars at similar points in the score, such as on page 4. The assumption that the "dark saying" is "Sing a song of sixpence" strikes me as entirely arbitrary. The fact that the two descending sevenths mean 11 times 2 divided by 7 seems equally capricious. The most convincing argument to me is that people who knew Elgar at the were absolutely sure that the "enigma" was a musical theme which could be played as a counter-melody to the played theme. With that assumption all of the statements which the Pi theory interpret in some mysterious, symbolic manner, are correct in their normal sense.
[asin]0684810794[/asin]
Quote from: nimrod on May 03, 2011, 11:44:28 AM
An excellent question. The defining difference is that Bach's double bar comes at the end of a phrase, but Elgar's is inserted for no apparent reason, except to deliniate that the 24 black notes have an enigmatic significance. The line from "sixpence" also has a pun about Pi which is very Elgar as he was known to be fond of nursery rhymes and puns.
The double bar at the end of that phrase could just as well have been inserted is to delineate a shift from G minor to the G major that starts at bar 7. As far as 11 notes occurring before the two minor sevenths in bars 3 and 4, there are in fact 10 notes and not 11.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 07:20:33 PM
The double bar at the end of that phrase could just as well have been inserted is to delineate a shift from G minor to the G major that starts at bar 7. As far as 11 notes occurring before the two minor sevenths in bars 3 and 4, there are in fact 10 notes and not 11.
Correct!!! The genius who discovered this "conspirancy" can't even count!!!
A good song about pi (not pie):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZSHr5E7fZY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZSHr5E7fZY)
Sweet and gentle sensitive man
With an obsessive nature and deep fascination
For numbers
And a complete infatuation with the calculation
Of PI
Oh he love, he love, he love
He does love his numbers
And they run, they run, they run him
In a great big circle
In a circle of infinity
3.1415926535 897932
3846 264 338 3279
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 03, 2011, 01:20:48 PM
I will not claim that this theory can be disproved, but it relies on the pretence that various capricious associations are obvious or unambiguous. The double bar, for instance, marks the end of the first strain of the melody seems perfectly normal to me, I see numerous instances of double bars at similar points in the score, such as on page 4. The assumption that the "dark saying" is "Sing a song of sixpence" strikes me as entirely arbitrary. The fact that the two descending sevenths mean 11 times 2 divided by 7 seems equally capricious. The most convincing argument to me is that people who knew Elgar at the were absolutely sure that the "enigma" was a musical theme which could be played as a counter-melody to the played theme. With that assumption all of the statements which the Pi theory interpret in some mysterious, symbolic manner, are correct in their normal sense.
I would like to start by correcting an important point of fact. The "double bar" referred to occurs before the end of the first strain of melody. Why? It deliniates the "Four and twenty." When Elgar was nearing the end of his life and no one had solved his enigma for thirty year he wrote the following three sentences, each of which contains a hint at decimal Pi:
Elgar also wrote the following, in a set of notes issued with the Aeolian Company pianola rolls published in 1929:
The alternation of the two quavers and two crotchets in the first bar and their reversal in the second bar will be noticed; references to this grouping are almost continuous (either melodically or in the accompanying figures - in Variation XIII, beginning at bar 11 [503], for example). The drop of a seventh in the Theme (bars 3 and 4) should be observed. At bar 7 (G major) appears the rising and falling passage in thirds which is much used later, e.g. Variation III, bars 10.16. [106, 112]
—E.E.
In the first sentence, his reference to two quavers and two crotchets is a hint at 2 and 2 or 22 of 22/7, the common fractional approximation of Pi. In the second sentence to states that the drop of the seventh in bars 3 and 4 should be observed. That is the hint that drove me to look for a connection to 22/7 and I found there were exactly eleven notes before the first drop of the seventh, leading to 11 x 2/7 = 22/7. In the third sentence Elgar refers to bar 7, which was again a hint at /7 of 22/7.
Surely all of this evidence proves it is unlikely that this could all be coincidence. I am not as confident that his dedicating the music to his circle of friends was a hint but that is what led me to look for Pi (a constant in all circles). Of course I found scale degree 3-1-4-2 in the first four notes. Pi also fits the other clues Elgar gave in 1899 about the "theme that is not played," and its being "offstage."
Let me know what you think?
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 07:42:06 AM
Let me know what you think?
I'll let you know what I think. If you go searching for specific patterns or numbers... you'll find it. Doesn't mean that it has any significance, it's called coincidence. And when you have to modify your pattern for cases of 22/7 and the like, you're really stretching it. It's a fun game but there is no meaning or significance to your discovery.
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 07:42:06 AM
Surely all of this evidence proves it is unlikely that this could all be coincidence.
Surely it does. You are sounding like Bernard Nightingale from Tom Stoppard's "Arcadia."
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 07:42:06 AM
Let me know what you think?
I've told you what I think.
Quote from: haydnfan on May 04, 2011, 07:48:20 AM
I'll let you know what I think. If you go searching for specific patterns or numbers... you'll find it. Doesn't mean that it has any significance, it's called coincidence. And when you have to modify your pattern for cases of 22/7 and the like, you're really stretching it. It's a fun game but there is no meaning or significance to your discovery.
Hmm, I wonder what R. N. thinks? . . .
QuoteIn the first sentence, his reference to two quavers and two crotchets is a hint at 2 and 2 or 22 of 22/7
Why 22? Why 22/7? I mean, why, from what Elgar has written.
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 08:09:17 AM
Why 22? Why 22/7? I mean, why, from what Elgar has written.
Yes, the mention of 2 is a clue to 22, but Elgar refers to the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8 in that passage, the only digits he did not mention were 5, 6 and 9. Seems like from those 6 digits you could find support for any hare-brained scheme. ::)
Hare-brained, hare-brained! Though I think that expression unfair to our lagormorph friends . . . .
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 04, 2011, 08:14:27 AM
Yes, the mention of 2 is a clue to 22, but Elgar refers to the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 and 8 in that passage, the only digits he did not mention were 5, 6 and 9. Seems like from those 6 digits you could find support for any hair-brained scheme. ::)
Wouldn't it be worth more to take the postmodern route? And focus on that which was left unstated? For me that seems to be more of a key then what was made explicit? I mean who leaves a mystery right out in the open?
Quote from: Philoctetes on May 04, 2011, 08:24:51 AM
I mean who leaves a mystery right out in the open?
The Pakistanis?
(http://www.blather.net/z_france1/rennes_le_chateau_sign.jpg)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 06:12:21 PM
But why stop at three decimals? After all, if the theme were truly based on pi, I would think Elgar would want to stretch it out as long as he could.
I don't know. In engineering three decimals are often enough. I was just saying that IF you round pi to 3 decimals, 3.142 is what you get.
Quote from: 71 dB on May 04, 2011, 10:28:23 AM
I don't know. In engineering three decimals are often enough. I was just saying that IF you round pi to 3 decimals, 3.142 is what you get.
That would be fine if Elgar's theme had only four notes. It goes on and deviates from Pi after only three tones.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 07:20:33 PM
The double bar at the end of that phrase could just as well have been inserted is to delineate a shift from G minor to the G major that starts at bar 7. As far as 11 notes occurring before the two minor sevenths in bars 3 and 4, there are in fact 10 notes and not 11.
I am not aware of any music that use a double bar to indicate a shift from minor to major before the melody is complete. (in bar 7.) Please refer to some for my benefit.
Please couint again. There are four notes in the first and second bar, that is eight, and in the third bar there are three more notes before the "drop" of the seventh. 8+3 = 11.
Quote from: some guy on May 03, 2011, 01:26:53 PM
I like the observation that I came across many years ago (and I don't remember the source) that the real enigma of Elgar's piece is why it's called the Enigma Variations.
Well, it is. And while Elgar may indeed have loved nursery rhymes and puns, he doubtless wrote music for the same reason that any composer writes music, because he thinks in tones and rhythms and harmonies and such. (Most composers nowadays being more interested in the "and such," of course.)
All very true. However Elgar told us there was an enigma (riddle/puzzle) contained in the work. He thought it would be solved at the first performance. Here we are more that 111 years later and many people cannot find the solution when it is laid out for them. I find it fascinating that such a simple puzzle took so long to solve, and so many people distort the "counting" and other evidence to try to disprove it.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 03, 2011, 01:20:48 PM
I will not claim that this theory can be disproved, but it relies on the pretence that various capricious associations are obvious or unambiguous. The double bar, for instance, marks the end of the first strain of the melody seems perfectly normal to me, I see numerous instances of double bars at similar points in the score, such as on page 4. The assumption that the "dark saying" is "Sing a song of sixpence" strikes me as entirely arbitrary. The fact that the two descending sevenths mean 11 times 2 divided by 7 seems equally capricious. The most convincing argument to me is that people who knew Elgar at the were absolutely sure that the "enigma" was a musical theme which could be played as a counter-melody to the played theme. With that assumption all of the statements which the Pi theory interpret in some mysterious, symbolic manner, are correct in their normal sense.
Yes, these are the same people who could not solve the enigma. Elgar NEVER said the enigma was a melody, but he denied every melody that was proposed to him as a solution during his lifetime. That should be a clue in itself. Elgar said it was a "theme." Theme can also be defined as the central idea of a work, as a melody created around the idea of Pi.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 03, 2011, 06:12:21 PM
But why stop at three decimals? After all, if the theme were truly based on pi, I would think Elgar would want to stretch it out as long as he could.
Some composers have tried what you suggest but the music was rather tedious and soon forgotten. Elgar's idea was to compose a melody consisting of three forms of Pi. Decimal Pi, fractional Pi, and Pi as a pun in a nursery rhyme. He did all that in the first six bars then he inserted a double bar although the first phrase was complete in bar seven. Elgar was quite clever.
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
I am not aware of any music that use a double bar to indicate a shift from minor to major before the melody is complete. (in bar 7.) Please refer to some for my benefit.
If there is a notated change in key signature, the tradition is to underscore that with a double-bar; that will be the case even when the key change does not coincide with the melodic cadence.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YTJBDUN8iSE/SiSIpcslhVI/AAAAAAAABZY/UYd1C48WAGI/s400/alchemy2.jpg)
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 03, 2011, 08:00:48 PM
Correct!!! The genius who discovered this "conspirancy" can't even count!!!
Please count them for yourself. Don't be misled by others. There are 11 notes before the "drop" of the seventh.
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 11:29:37 AM
There are 11 notes before the "drop" of the seventh.
No way could that be a coincidence!
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 11:28:43 AM
If there is a notated change in key signature, the tradition is to underscore that with a double-bar; that will be the case even when the key change does not coincide with the melodic cadence.
True, but there is no notated change in key signature that I could find. Did you find one?
(http://www.hermetics.org/images/gif/gdlion1.gif)
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 11:17:39 AM
All very true. However Elgar told us there was an enigma (riddle/puzzle) contained in the work. He thought it would be solved at the first performance. Here we are more that 111 years later and many people cannot find the solution when it is laid out for them. I find it fascinating that such a simple puzzle took so long to solve, and so many people distort the "counting" and other evidence to try to disprove it.
As you say, Elgar thought it would be solved by people at the first performance, yet the score had not been published and no one knew of your "mysterious" double bar marking off the 24 notes, which tied in with the "dark saying" which refers to "sing a song of sixpence" which refers to 24 black birds baked in a pie, which refers to Pi.
Quote from: Philoctetes on May 04, 2011, 11:32:28 AM
(http://www.hermetics.org/images/gif/gdlion1.gif)
I haven't seen that portrait of Elgar in a while . . . .
If one turns to the Wikipedia on this piece, one finds (among dozens of solutions proposed) the following:
Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_variation
Another theme that has been suggested is the mathematical constant pi, which is "well known". The first four notes of the Variations are the scale degrees 3-1-4-2, which correspond to an approximation of pi. The commonly used fractional approximation is also observed in the two "drops of a seventh" that follow exactly after the first eleven notes– 11 x 2/7, or 22/7. In this proposal, the "dark saying" is a pun on the nursery rhyme Sing a Song of Sixpence, found in "Four and twenty blackbirds (dark) baked in a pie (Pi)", used to refer to the first twenty-four black notes. Elgar wrote his Enigma Variations in the year following the Indiana Pi Bill of 1897, and noted in 1910 that the work was "commenced in a spirit of humour."[30]
^ Santa, Charles Richard; Matthew Santa (Spring 2010). "Solving Elgar's Enigma". Current Musicology (89).
So unless you're one of the two Santas, or you're Santa Claus, you're not only proposing an improbable solution, but you're plagiarizing Wikipedia and not giving the authors due credit.
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 11:33:38 AM
I haven't seen that portrait of Elgar in a while . . . .
True, you never usually see portraits that are so exact.
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 11:31:02 AM
No way could that be a coincidence!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
(psst! I wasn't serious . . . .)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2011, 11:33:51 AM
If one turns to the Wikipedia on this piece, one finds (among dozens of solutions proposed) the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_variation
QuoteAnother theme that has been suggested is the mathematical constant pi, which is "well known". The first four notes of the Variations are the scale degrees 3-1-4-2, which correspond to an approximation of pi. The commonly used fractional approximation is also observed in the two "drops of a seventh" that follow exactly after the first eleven notes– 11 x 2/7, or 22/7. In this proposal, the "dark saying" is a pun on the nursery rhyme Sing a Song of Sixpence, found in "Four and twenty blackbirds (dark) baked in a pie (Pi)", used to refer to the first twenty-four black notes. Elgar wrote his Enigma Variations in the year following the Indiana Pi Bill of 1897, and noted in 1910 that the work was "commenced in a spirit of humour."[30]
^ Santa, Charles Richard; Matthew Santa (Spring 2010). "Solving Elgar's Enigma". Current Musicology (89).
So unless you're one of the two Santas, or you're Santa Claus, you're not only proposing an improbable solution, but you're plagiarizing Wikipedia and not giving the authors due credit.
Zowie!
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 11:50:25 AM
So unless you're one of the two Santas, or you're Santa Claus, you're not only proposing an improbable solution, but you're plagiarizing Wikipedia and not giving the authors due credit.
Zowie!
I am Charles Richard Santa. I posted the information to inform and invite discussion. Is that against the rules?
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 12:11:07 PM
I am Charles Richard Santa. I posted the information to inform and invite discussion. Is that against the rules?
It's not against the rules, of course, but it is useful information. Having seen the Wikipedia entry I inferred there are two people in the world that believe this theory, you and whoever put that in the Wiki page. Now I see there is only one. :)
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 12:11:07 PM
I am Charles Richard Santa. I posted the information to inform and invite discussion. Is that against the rules?
You posted that onto Wikipedia? Is that ethical?
What I get from this is that you can't trust anything you read in Wikipedia.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 04, 2011, 12:19:15 PM
What I get from this is that you can't trust anything you read in Wikipedia.
Seriously.
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 12:14:13 PM
You posted that onto Wikipedia? Is that ethical?
I did not post the information onto Wiki. That was done by Wiki after the article was published by Columbia University in 'Current Musicology." I posted the brief information here on this forum to inform members and invite discussion.
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 12:11:07 PM
I am Charles Richard Santa. I posted the information to inform and invite discussion. Is that against the rules?
It most certainly is not against the rules. I am curious to see how this turns out. Hopefully if there is any bunking or debunking done it will be the result of thought rather than rhetoric. As for me, I know squat about the topic, but I hope to know more soon. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 04, 2011, 01:36:34 PM
It most certainly is not against the rules. I am curious to see how this turns out. Hopefully if there is any bunking or debunking done it will be the result of thought rather than rhetoric. As for me, I know squat about the topic, but I hope to know more soon. :)
8)
Well said! I also knew squat about the subject until I heard Fred Child introduce the subject on Performance Today. Fred said that Elgar had stated that he was surprized no one had guessed the enigma because it was so simple. I said to myself, "Self, if it is simple, you should try." I thought that because it was about his circle of friends it might have something to do with a circle. Knowing that Pi, 3.142, is a constant is all circle, I decided to vocalize the 3-1-4-2 (mi-do-fa-re) and was I shocked. It was the first four notes of the Enigma Variations. After that I researched it for a year or two and discovered lots of evidence supporting Pi.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 04, 2011, 12:14:00 PM
It's not against the rules, of course, but it is useful information. Having seen the Wikipedia entry I inferred there are two people in the world that believe this theory, you and whoever put that in the Wiki page. Now I see there is only one. :)
Two, perhaps, since the article lists two authors. But of course what CRS is doing is not against the rules, but it certainly created a misleading impression in my mind. I'm not saying his theory is impossible, and since it was accepted at a credible journal, maybe it's argued more convincingly there than a brief summary on a message board can convey. My problem is that there just seem to be too many little snippets of information that have to be accepted for one to buy into the theory. This Indiana bill, for example: is it certain that Elgar even knew of it? and even if he did, so what? But of course it's also possible the poster has cracked one of the major musical mysteries of the last century. I'd like to read the original article.
Quote from: Apollon on May 04, 2011, 12:14:13 PM
You posted that onto Wikipedia? Is that ethical?
I don't know about ethical, but it doesn't meet their notability guideline.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2011, 04:01:24 PM
Two, perhaps, since the article lists two authors. But of course what CRS is doing is not against the rules, but it certainly created a misleading impression in my mind. I'm not saying his theory is impossible, and since it was accepted at a credible journal, maybe it's argued more convincingly there than a brief summary on a message board can convey. My problem is that there just seem to be too many little snippets of information that have to be accepted for one to buy into the theory. This Indiana bill, for example: is it certain that Elgar even knew of it? and even if he did, so what? But of course it's also possible the poster has cracked one of the major musical mysteries of the last century. I'd like to read the original article.
I would be glad to send you a copy of our last submission (of the 20 page article) to the Journal if there is a secure way to exchange email adresses. Is that possible? I would be glad to post my email address if that is allowed. Let me know.
Quote from: nimrod on May 04, 2011, 04:47:36 PM
I would be glad to send you a copy of our last submission (of the 20 page article) to the Journal if there is a secure way to exchange email adresses. Is that possible? I would be glad to post my email address if that is allowed. Let me know.
Better not to, I think. Just click the little icon under his name that looks like a tan speech bubble and it will open up a message editor already addressed to him. Send him your email address from there. Alternatively, if your rticle is posted on line, post a link to it here and we will all love to read it. :)
8)
----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood / Beznosiuk / Kelly - K 297c 299 Flute & Harp Concerto in C HIP 3rd mvmt - Rondo: [Allegro]
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 04, 2011, 04:54:51 PM
Better not to, I think. Just click the little icon under his name that looks like a tan speech bubble and it will open up a message editor already addressed to him. Send him your email address from there. Alternatively, if your rticle is posted on line, post a link to it here and we will all love to read it. :)
8)
Thanks for the info. I will do that for the email address. This site has a lot of useful features and interesting people. The article is not posted on line but it may be available from the "Current Musicology" website. You probably have to order from Columbia University and there is probably a charge. I would be glad to email a "final submission" copy to anyone who requests it. I will send one to you as well. Thanks again.
Based on the story of the origin of the piece, Elgar improvising on the piano and his wife saying "Hey, you should use that" makes the pi solution unlikely, as it suggests a careful working out on paper rather than freeform rhapsodising. The notion that Elgar expected the audience to get the reference at the first performance also makes a mathematical solution unlikely.
Also, as far as I know, Elgar had no special interest in mathematics (or numerology).
Quote. . . said to myself, "Self, if it is simple, you try."
I applaud the effort, the exploratory spirit, and the ingenuity.
It's worth reflecting that something which was (or might be) easy for someone in Elgar's time and place, might not be particularly easy for us here, now. We live in a very different context.
The attempt could have been far more egregious, of course. We might be discussing The Enigma Code.
(http://www.familysealrings.com/folio/images/beasts/Knights_Templar_Ring.jpg)
Quote from: eyeresist on May 04, 2011, 06:13:47 PM
Based on the story of the origin of the piece, Elgar improvising on the piano and his wife saying "Hey, you should use that", makes the pi solution unlikely, as it suggests a careful working out on paper rather then freeform rhapsodising. The notion that Elgar expected the audience to get the reference at the first performance also makes a mathematical solution unlikely.
I agree, if that's the case it's a real problem. After all, if you hear Bb-G-C-A for the first time, are you likely to immediately convert that in your mind to 3.142?
Nobody in Elgar's day would have. They would have been very likely to think (even involuntarily) Do La Re Ti.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 04, 2011, 04:01:24 PM
My problem is that there just seem to be too many little snippets of information that have to be accepted for one to buy into the theory. This Indiana bill, for example: is it certain that Elgar even knew of it? and even if he did, so what? But of course it's also possible the poster has cracked one of the major musical mysteries of the last century. I'd like to read the original article.
That is the first thing I thought of: would the British press have cared what happens in the cornfield councils of HoosierDaddyLand? 8)
It is of course possible that they would have reported it, as a way to let bumpkins unwittingly satirize themselves.
Here is a nice short account of the Indiana Pi Bill via Purdue University:
http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/localgov/second%20level%20pages/Indiana_Pi_Story.htm (http://www.agecon.purdue.edu/crd/localgov/second%20level%20pages/Indiana_Pi_Story.htm)
An excerpt:
Quote"The Indianapolis Journal had Senator Hubbell saying that "the Senate might as well try to legislate water to run up hill as to establish mathematical truth by law." The Journal noted that
...no one who spoke against it intimated that there was anything wrong with the theories it advances. All of the senators who spoke on the bill admitted that they were ignorant of the merits of the proposition. It was simply regarded as not being a subject for legislation (Edington, p. 210).
Senator Hubbell moved to postpone further consideration of the bill indefinitely, and the motion passed. According to Beckmann, the bill "has not been on the agenda since" (p. 177). The official history of the Indiana General Assembly (p. 429) gives the credit to Professor Waldo
Thanks mainly to this alert professor, who convinced the Senate not to tamper with "unsolvable mysteries . . . above man's abilities to comprehend," the Indiana General Assembly failed to do in 1897 what no one before or since has done, i.e. square the circle."
(My emphasis above)
Hey, who knows, maybe there's something in those odd superimpositions of 3/2 over 2/2 and the bracketed-and-numbered 3-bar units returning to bracketed-and-numbered 4-bar units in the final variation. And if you're looking for a highlighted number 1, can do no better than Troyte, whose time signature is simply 1 - an very rare sight, that! It's even preceded by Ysobel, in 3. Unfortunately, however, the next variation isn't in 4, it's in 6...though I suppose Troyte is in 4/4 as well as 1, if you're desperate!
Not saying I buy this, just that it's fun to while away a few minutes idly looking for numbers in the score!
That's the tuplet nester talking . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on May 05, 2011, 03:29:52 AM
Nobody in Elgar's day would have. They would have been very likely to think (even involuntarily) Do La Re Ti.
Or, possibly, Me Do Fa Re . . . .
Quote from: Apollon on May 05, 2011, 04:28:17 AM
That's the tuplet nester talking . . . .
My superhero suit is at the dry-cleaners, but don't worry, wherever there are tuplets to be nested, I'll be there...
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2011, 04:41:09 AM
Or, possibly, Me Do Fa Re . . . .
Better, as we're talking G minor here.
Quote from: Cato on May 05, 2011, 03:42:32 AM
That is the first thing I thought of: would the British press have cared what happens in the cornfield councils of HoosierDaddyLand? 8)
It is of course possible that they would have reported it, as a way to let bumpkins unwittingly satirize themselves.
I suspect the British would have been delighted to laugh about the folly of the "colonials." Elgar was worldly. He traveled to several countries including the US. He was fond of this sort of funny story, japes, as he referred to them. According to the book by Dorabella (one of his "variants") Elgar rolled on the floor in laughter after finding a note in his mail from the local temperance society showing their moto to be "Let us hold up our brother." Elgar was a brilliant man who earned a patent for his invention of a chemistry apparatus which was used in schools for years thereafter.
Quote from: nimrod on May 05, 2011, 07:20:13 AM
I suspect the British would have been delighted to laugh about the folly of the "colonials." Elgar was worldly. He traveled to several countries including the US. He was fond of this sort of funny story, japes, as he referred to them. According to the book by Dorabella (one of his "variants") Elgar rolled on the floor in laughter after finding a note in his mail from the local temperance society showing their moto to be "Let us hold up our brother." Elgar was a brilliant man who earned a patent for his invention of a chemistry apparatus which was used in schools for years thereafter.
None of that means that he was aware of this obscure story, in particular. (But, you knew that.)
Quote from: nimrod on May 05, 2011, 07:20:13 AM
I suspect the British would have been delighted to laugh about the folly of the "colonials."
Absolutely :D
Quote from: starrynight on May 05, 2011, 07:42:43 AM
Absolutely :D
Don't worry, we colonials laugh right back.
(http://www.hawaii.edu/tours/arena/grassy.knoll.jpeg)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2011, 07:28:11 AM
None of that means that he was aware of this obscure story, in particular. (But, you knew that.)
Aside from the fact that the law never passed, nor was it even voted on.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 05, 2011, 08:26:34 AM
Aside from the fact that the law never passed, nor was it even voted on.
Is there documentation that it was reported in English papers? Better still, is it referenced in Elgar's correspondence? ; )
Until now, I've tried to obey the dictum that "It is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." ;D But I have to say that I always thought that double bar was in a very odd place; not the end of a variation, a key or time change, or even the end of the phrase...
And that's all I'm going to say. For now. :)
Quote from: jochanaan on May 05, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
Until now, I've tried to obey the dictum that "It is better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." ;D But I have to say that I always thought that double bar was in a very odd place; not the end of a variation, a key or time change, or even the end of the phrase...
And that's all I'm going to say. For now. :)
I appreciate your observation. I was beginning to think I was totally alone in that thought.
Additionally, the solution does not hang on "proving" that Elgar knew about the Indiana Pi Bill of 1897. I did hire a researcher in London to do a search for me but they looked at the few papers that had any records and could not find that evidence. It would have been nice but there are nearly a dozen other pieces of evidence that point to Pi. None is more obvious than the opening (and oft repeated) 3-1-4-2 scale degree.
Quote from: jochanaan on May 05, 2011, 09:19:33 AM
I always thought that double bar was in a very odd place; not the end of a variation, a key or time change, or even the end of the phrase...
Well, it separates the first and second parts of the theme, and marks the change from minor to major. Undoubtedly this helped musicians encountering the work for the first time.
Quote from: nimrod on May 05, 2011, 01:13:32 PM
None is more obvious than the opening (and oft repeated) 3-1-4-2 scale degree.
Exactly: none is "more obvious" than that little idea, and that piece of "evidence" does not prove, nor even suggest, it — except as you front-load the question. David is right: you can read any sort of numerology into anything, like the character in War and Peace who becomes convinced that "Napoleon" maps onto the Number of the Beast.
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 05:45:01 PM
Well, it separates the first and second parts of the theme, and marks the change from minor to major. Undoubtedly this helped musicians encountering the work for the first time.
I count seven bars in the opening/main theme, and the double bar at the end of the sixth measure comes before the last note of the theme in bar 7.
Am I counting wrong? I don't understand how one can consider the first/main theme as ending at the sixth (the double)bar. Please explain it to this non-musician.
Quote from: nimrod on May 05, 2011, 06:46:57 PM
I count seven bars in the opening/main theme, and the double bar at the end of the sixth measure comes before the last note of the theme in bar 7.
Am I counting wrong? I don't understand how one can consider the first/main theme as ending at the sixth (the double)bar. Please explain it to this non-musician.
The complete theme consists of 17 bars and 3 periods in a kind of ABA form:
bar 1-6 bars in the minor (the "A" section), ending with your ||
bars 7-10 bars in the major (B)
bar 11-16 bars in the minor (A, with some contrapuntal embellishment), closing into
bar 17, 1 final bar in the major (Picardy third) that is parallel harmonically to bar 7.
So bar 7, in effect, both ends the first period and starts the second.
What (poco) said. It is true that the first note of the 7th bar RESOLVES the first theme, but I'd say this is very much secondary to its role as the first note of the second theme. (I'm sure there must be a better way of saying that, but I'm not much of a theorist.)
I'm looking at the piano score, BTW.
EDIT:
Elgar's use of the phrase "dark saying" was a Biblical reference. The expression is used in Psalms 49 and 78, and various places in Job, in the sense of a riddle, parable, oracle, mysterious prophecy. Or enigma, if you like. So not literally dark, therefore not connected to blackbirds.
http://bible.cc/psalms/49-4.htm
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 08:34:26 PM
Elgar's use of the phrase "dark saying" was a Biblical reference. The expression is used in Psalms 49 and 78, and various places in Job, in the sense of a riddle, parable, oracle, mysterious prophecy. Or enigma, if you like. So not literally dark, therefore not connected to blackbirds.
http://bible.cc/psalms/49-4.htm (http://bible.cc/psalms/49-4.htm)
Exactly. This sort of misprision (and one taken as a "confirming clew") is just the sort of pitfall I cautioned against when I pointed out that Elgar and we inhabit different environments, different contexts. We see as in a glass, darkly . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 06, 2011, 03:00:47 AM
Exactly. This sort of misprision (and one taken as a "confirming clew") is just the sort of pitfall I cautioned against when I pointed out that Elgar and we inhabit different environments, different contexts. We see as in a glass, darkly . . . .
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there". L.P. Hartley
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2011, 03:17:04 AM
"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there". L.P. Hartley
Nice!
Lord knows I should not be patient with the plumbing in Elgar's day . . . .
Quote from: eyeresist on May 05, 2011, 08:34:26 PM
What (poco) said. It is true that the first note of the 7th bar RESOLVES the first theme, but I'd say this is very much secondary to its role as the first note of the second theme. (I'm sure there must be a better way of saying that, but I'm not much of a theorist.)
Neither am I, but I think that's pretty close. Bar 6, on the subdominant, does not resolve the harmony to the tonic; that is left for bar 7. I wouldn't say "first" and "second themes" myself, but rather first and second periods, but that's a quibble and as you rightly say, bar 7 serves primarily to start the second period. But since 16 (parallel to 6 and therefore also on the subdominant) is not a point of resolution, Elgar adds a full bar of tonic major to stabilize the harmony. (There are two bars following in the same tempo, but they are clearly transitional to the first variation.)
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 04:18:57 AM
I don't understand why there is so much blow-back aimed at nimrod for his theory. I found it, while not totally convincing, a fine display of creative thinking and the pulling together of various pieces of evidence to come up with a credible guess.
Cut him some slack.
:)
So, a credible guess is the benchmark for Wikipedia? Just asking . . . . Happy to cut him all sorts of slack for kicking the idea around. Some of us are appalled at how he's published it as (implicitly) received fact (or, more accurately, a consensus hypothesis).
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 04:59:04 AM
Second, his paper was published in a credible academic journal, and should appropriately be viewed as a credible theory (his co-author is a music professor at a respected music school and I am sure can do as good an analysis as anyone on this site).
Thanks, it is nice to have it pointed out that we're not exactly dealing with a Newman here.
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 04:59:04 AM
First, Wiki is open to being edited by anyone and so much of what is there is suspect. Second, his paper was published in a credible academic journal, and should appropriately be viewed as a credible theory (his co-author is a music professor at a respected music school and I am sure can do as good an analysis as anyone on this site). Third, I doubt at this point that any solution will satisfy everyone and the enigma will remain unsolved in perpetuity.
I applaud his effort and found the article to be a worthwhile and entertaining read. I doubt the authors had more ambitious goals.
Ditto
8)
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 04:59:04 AM
First, Wiki is open to being edited by anyone and so much of what is there is suspect. Second, his paper was published in a credible academic journal, and should appropriately be viewed as a credible theory (his co-author is a music professor at a respected music school and I am sure can do as good an analysis as anyone on this site). Third, I doubt at this point that any solution will satisfy everyone and the enigma will remain unsolved in perpetuity.
I applaud his effort and found the article to be a worthwhile and entertaining read. I doubt the authors had more ambitious goals.
Well, if it were to turn out that his solution is air-tight, it would be a minor but definite coup towards solving one of the most famous musical mysteries of all time. I read the original article too and it sounds as if the author recognizes he is being speculative. It also shows he has done a great deal of sound research into the composer. But you gotta admit, as it seemed from the initial post, it appeared to have been presented as unassailable fact rather than "Here's a solution I have discovered and published; do you think it holds water?" And I think that raised some eyebrows here, mine included, especially as the poster has in no other way so far contributed to the forum. I absolutely agree it's clever and ingenious, but whether it's unassailable is something I can't say.
The reason I brought up Bernard Nightingale from Stoppard's "Arcadia," btw, is to call attention to the potential perils of historical judgment. If you know the play, you know that Bernard (in the early 1990s) puts together a theory, which he regards as unassailable, regarding Lord Byron's departure from England to Europe around 1810. Problem is (since the play alternates between 1990 and 1810), Bernard misreads all the clues and comes up with a conclusion that is completely erroneous. Evidence is a tricky thing, and the possibility of reaching conclusions that could be way off base can never be discounted. (OVOP enthusiasts, take note!)
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 04:18:57 AM
I don't understand why there is so much blow-back aimed at nimrod for his theory. I found it, while not totally convincing, a fine display of creative thinking and the pulling together of various pieces of evidence to come up with a credible guess.
Cut him some slack.
:)
People on both sides of the rope have to give a little to create slack.
The fact that the first four notes of the theme are scale degrees 3-1-4-2 is interesting, I grant you. The other clues? The fact that there are 24 notes before Elgar placed a double-bar marking the end of the first strain of the theme means π? Because we should ignore the obvious meaning of "dark saying" as "a mystery" and assume it refers to a particular nursery rhyme, "Sing a song of sixpence," which includes the phrase "four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie, and a pie is π? Because two intervals of a descending seventh in the melody means 22/7? (Did Elgar ever write a melody without at least two descending sevenths?) Because there are 10 notes before the two descending sevenths and 10 can be miscounted as 11, and obviously this means 2 times 11 divided by 7? Because, two years before, a legislature in a US state considered but never voted on a bill which contained an incorrect mathematical statement involving π (which was apparently not reported in England)?
Finally, Elgar said (with no ambiguity) that he expected the puzzle to be solved at the initial performance, and no one at the initial performance had the score containing the double bar, which would have allowed them to count the 24 notes which supposedly are code for the 24 back birds baked in a pie, which are code for π. Elgar also said "through and over the whole set another and larger theme 'goes', but is not played." He said it goes "through and over" the entire set of variations, not that it is encoded in the first seven bars. It requires no imagination to interpret the larger theme as a counter-melody which could have been played as a counterpoint to the main theme but was not. Whenever a particular music theme was suggested Elgar noted it was not the right answer, but he never suggested that the enigma was other than musical.
The first 3-1-4-2 in the first four notes may be something. The rest? If you allow yourself such wide lattitude in finding "clues" you can find equally convincing "clues" in any piece of music.
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 06:37:48 AM
All true - but riddles usually are based on clues which while making sense are not so iron-clad as to make the solution too straightforward. Again, my point is that the Pi theory is interesting and entertaining to comtemplate and I am a bit mystified why the response from some quarters has been hostile, to a degree.
It is not like anything in the article wil change the Enigma Variations and how the music is percieved. It is just an interesting diversion, imo.
I am put off by the fact that the "explanation" requires accepting false or misleading statements, such as the claim that the double-bar is unusual (it marks the beginning of the second strain of the melody and a shift from minor to major harmony) or that the 11 notes before the descending 7th is a clue, when by the most intuitive mode of counting there are 10. I am also put off by the exaggerated and unjustified claims that this solution is convincing. In the words of a famous physicist, this explanation is "not even wrong."
I just want to share this stunning discovery with you all. Both Titner and Young have made recordings of Bruckner's original version of the 3rd symphony that come out to 71:22, exactly! This led to a major discovery! Notice the appearance of 22, 7 and 1 in the timing. Clearly Bruckner intended this symphony to symbolize π since 22/(7x1) ≈ π. This is obvious since two different recordings of the symphony came up to the same total time, which couldn't possibly be a coincidence. This is also solves the mystery of the dedication, since Bruckner dedicated it to Wagner, who he believed was the most perfect composer, and the circle is the only perfect geometrical figure, and π is derived from the circle. Thank god that the restoration of the original version restored the clues needed to solve this more than 100 year old mystery! Nimrod, please send me the contact information for that music journal, since this astonishing result must be published before another Bruckner fan dies without knowing the truth!!!! My colleague Sokal is editing the manuscript already.
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 07:15:41 AM
I don't see the point in ridiculing anyone.
Then why are you ridiculing my idea, pray tell?
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 07:15:41 AM
I don't see the point in ridiculing anyone.
I agree, and I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking this. Especially ridiculing a fairly new GMG member.
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 07:12:14 AM
I just want to share this stunning discovery with you all. Both Titner and Young have made recordings of Bruckner's original version of the 3rd symphony that come out to 71:22, exactly!
The only person I feel like ridiculing at the moment is anyone who can spell it "Titner" without a hint of irony. ;)
Quote from: Brian on May 06, 2011, 07:21:20 AM
The only person I feel like ridiculing at the moment is anyone who can spell it "Titner" without a hint of irony. ;)
You mean
misspell Tintner? :)
8)
Quote from: Brian on May 06, 2011, 07:21:20 AM
The only person I feel like ridiculing at the moment is anyone who can spell it "Titner" without a hint of irony. ;)
You cannot imagine how crestfallen I am to find my thesis has a flaw. :'(
By the way, I just realized it was the second symphony that had the symbolic time. Fortunately Bruckner offered to dedicate both the 2nd and the 3rd to Wagner, so the Wagner symbolism applies to both. 0:)
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
I am put off by the fact that the "explanation" requires accepting false or misleading statements, such as the claim that the double-bar is unusual...
Actually, that double bar IS unusual. Most composers are very sparing with double bars, using them only at time or key changes or the end of major sections; certainly I cannot think of another case of a double bar at the mere end of the first phrase. I make no judgment about nimrod's solution, but speaking as a performing musician, it's at least a possibility that Elgar meant the musicians at least to consider something in the first six bars...
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 07:30:03 AM
You cannot imagine how crestfallen I am to find my thesis has a flaw. :'(
By the way, I just realized it was the second symphony that had the symbolic time. Fortunately Bruckner offered to dedicate both the 2nd and the 3rd to Wagner, so the Wagner symbolism applies to both.
Yes, Bruckner brought both symphonies and Wagner - never one to eat humble Pi - chose the Third.
As for Nimrod's proffered solution - I simply don't know.
I my comments have given the impression of ridiculing the original poster, I apologize. However I do not surrender the right to criticize the idea. If I think about it, what irks me is not the assertions that I find unjustified, it is the fact that it ignores and depreciates what Elgar actually accomplished. Let's look at Elgar's original remarks:
QuoteThe Enigma I will not explain - its 'dark saying' must be left unguessed, and I warn you that the connection between the Variations and the Theme is often of the slightest texture; further, through and over the whole set another and larger theme 'goes', but is not played.... So the principal Theme never appears, even as in some late dramas ... the chief character is never on the stage.
QuoteThe alternation of the two quavers and two crotchets in the first bar and their reversal in the second bar will be noticed; references to this grouping are almost continuous (either melodically or in the accompanying figures - in Variation XIII, beginning at bar 11 [503], for example). The drop of a seventh in the Theme (bars 3 and 4) should be observed. At bar 7 (G major) appears the rising and falling passage in thirds which is much used later, e.g. Variation III, bars 10.16.
Where else do we get such tantilizing information from a composer about his own music? There are two main points.
1. In the traditional "theme and variations" as practice by Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc, the variations consist of elaboration of the structure of the theme. The theme is played, it is varied with additional ornamentation, added counter-melodies, finally the melody itself may disappear or become dramatically transformed with only the harmonic progression and underlying structure of the theme remaining. Elgar has told us here that he has done the opposite, he has freely varied the harmonic structure of the theme, and used the superficial aspects, the rising and falling thirds, the descending sevenths, the rhythmic motif of short-short-long-long long-long-short-short, as the unifying principal. This is a novel way of constructing a "theme with variations" which points towards much music which was subsequently written.
2. He has conceived his theme as the countermelody of a theme that he thought was familiar to his audience. He wanted his audience to hear the underlying theme in their heads as a complement to what they actually heard. He conceived the audience as actually being, in effect, a collaborative composer and performer of the music. It would be as if Bach performed one of his choral preludes (think of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, or the central Chorale from Wachet Auf) omitting the choral melody and inviting his audience to imagine the chorale in their heads. I think this was a grand miscalculation on Elgar's part, because musical harmony is not nearly unambiguous enough for a person to infer a missing melodic line from a given counterpoint, no matter how brilliantly conceived. But it is a wonderful idea, and would have been even more wonderful if he had later provided the theme (not to be played, but as a guide to the curious).
And this is to be depreciated in favor of Elgar expecting someone to sit there, "..21...22....23...24. 24 notes! Eureka! Those must be the 24 backbirds baked in the pie, I've heard tell of. It's Pi, I tell you, Pi." It is much more satifying to imagine Elgar writing those notes and imagining that the unheard counter-melody would be evoked in the minds of his audience.
And with that, my point is made, and I will offer no more criticism.
(http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/images/ACF371.jpg)
What about the enigmatic posts of Philoctetes in this thread? Has anyone worked out THAT enigma yet? Must be quite a puzzle...... ;D
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on May 06, 2011, 09:15:15 AM
I my comments have given the impression of ridiculing the original poster, I apologize. However I do not surrender the right to criticize the idea. If I think about it, what irks me is not the assertions that I find unjustified, it is the fact that it ignores and depreciates what Elgar actually accomplished. Let's look at Elgar's original remarks:
Where else do we get such tantilizing information from a composer about his own music? There are two main points.
1. In the traditional "theme and variations" as practice by Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc, the variations consist of elaboration of the structure of the theme. The theme is played, it is varied with additional ornamentation, added counter-melodies, finally the melody itself may disappear or become dramatically transformed with only the harmonic progression and underlying structure of the theme remaining. Elgar has told us here that he has done the opposite, he has freely varied the harmonic structure of the theme, and used the superficial aspects, the rising and falling thirds, the descending sevenths, the rhythmic motif of short-short-long-long long-long-short-short, as the unifying principal. This is a novel way of constructing a "theme with variations" which points towards much music which was subsequently written.
2. He has conceived his theme as the countermelody of a theme that he thought was familiar to his audience. He wanted his audience to hear the underlying theme in their heads as a complement to what they actually heard. He conceived the audience as actually being, in effect, a collaborative composer and performer of the music. It would be as if Bach performed one of his choral preludes (think of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, or the central Chorale from Wachet Auf) omitting the choral melody and inviting his audience to imagine the chorale in their heads. I think this was a grand miscalculation on Elgar's part, because musical harmony is not nearly unambiguous enough for a person to infer a missing melodic line from a given counterpoint, no matter how brilliantly conceived. But it is a wonderful idea, and would have been even more wonderful if he had later provided the theme (not to be played, but as a guide to the curious).
And this is to be depreciated in favor of Elgar expecting someone to sit there, "..21...22....23...24. 24 notes! Eureka! Those must be the 24 backbirds baked in the pie, I've heard tell of. It's Pi, I tell you, Pi." It is much more satifying to imagine Elgar writing those notes and imagining that the unheard counter-melody would be evoked in the minds of his audience.
And with that, my point is made, and I will offer no more criticism.
No apology is need. I wanted knowledgeable people to consider and discuss what my research had found. IMHO there is a large amount of evidence to indicate that Elgar did indeed create his melody as a puzzle incorporating three forms of Pi. It could be coincidence but it is hard for me to look at the 3-1-4-2 first four notes, the 11 notes followed by 2 (drops of the seventh in the third and fourth bar), and the coincidence of there being 24 black notes before the double bar when Elgar tells us their is a "dark saying." I agree that no one would count 24 black notes on first hearing but I did notice the 3-1-4-2 on first hearing when I considered that it was written about his CIRCLE of friends. I thought, "could "CIRCLE be a clue?" Then I vocalized the 3-1-4-2 and was shocked. I believe Elgar believed someone in the audience would have that same thought process. The other findings of Pi came much later for me as I was looking for some confirmation. People challenged me about how would Pi relate to the "drop of the seventh" and they challenged me about what relevance does Pi have to a "dark saying?" I looked for two years and talked to many people in the US and in UK and worked with their ideas and challenges. When I read the 1929 notes written by Elgar near the end of his life, I found each of the three sentences contained something that could be a hint at Pi (as I described separately.)
As far as the theme being a melodic counterpoint, that has been the established thinking for 111 years but Elgar said no to every melody that was ever presented to him over his lifetime. And there were many melodies offered. A theme can also be a concept or main idea of a work. In that context it is easy to see how Elgar would write that the "theme was not played" and the enigma was "offstage."
I apologize to those I offended by not emphasizing that my statements were my belief and not widely known. It is a new explanation of the enigma people obviously want to hold on to their old beliefs. I wanted to share the new information with you and get your feedback. I am disappointed that some readers have repeated claimed that my counting of 11 notes before the drop is false. I am also disappointed that the minor point about the double bar after measure six has been misstated by several people even though the melody clearly extends through bar seven.
Additionally, Wiki would not publish my information when first suggested in 2007, unless and until it had been published in a peer reviewed Journal. That is why I researched for 2-3 years before the information was published by Columbia University, "Current Musicology." I do not agree with the criticism of Wikipedia that my post has created.
Quote from: nimrod on May 06, 2011, 12:41:05 PM
It is a new explanation of the enigma people obviously want to hold on to their old beliefs.
Not necessarily, but they want to feel confident that the new theory is adequately supported.
Quote from: nimrod on May 06, 2011, 12:41:05 PM
I am disappointed that some readers have repeated claimed that my counting of 11 notes before the drop is false.
11 if you count the top G, 10 if you do not.
Quote from: nimrod on May 06, 2011, 12:41:05 PM
I am also disappointed that the minor point about the double bar after measure six has been misstated by several people even though the melody clearly extends through bar seven.
I don't see that anyone has "misstated" anything about the double bar. The important musical point is that, after the first 6-bar phrase, a second 4-bar phrase starts at bar 7. If bar 6 sounds unresolved, that's because it's a subdominant harmony (or a II 7 if you want to count the first violin A as a chord tone), and the major tonic at 7 resolves that harmony. But the melody does not "clearly" extend through bar seven. Elgar has indicated in numerous ways that the material starting at 7 is a new period (change of mode from minor to major, new melodic motif, change in orchestral texture including the addition of wind instruments, change of phrasing from the detached style in 1-6 to a more legato style in 7-10, etc.)
I'm afraid at this point that the only "circle" we can all agree to is the one this thread is now going in a . . . .
Two other examples of "Hiding in plain sight" are the recent Bin Ladin in the middle of a Pakistani city, and the older "Purloined Letter" short story by Edgar Allen Poe.
Quote from: Leon on May 06, 2011, 06:37:48 AM
Again, my point is that the Pi theory is interesting and entertaining to comtemplate and I am a bit mystified why the response from some quarters has been hostile, to a degree.
It is not like anything in the article wil change the Enigma Variations and how the music is percieved. It is just an interesting diversion, imo.
The reason that some of us are reacting strongly is that we have learned that obsessive conspiratorial thinking is not to be trusted (as the "silent" Philoctetes has pointed out). The problem with the "people are entitled to their opinion" argument is that you end up giving credence to people for whom fact is irrelevant. Luckily we have not yet reached the stage of teaching the "turtles all the way down" theory of cosmology in schools, but it is a slippery slope which we should take reasonable precautions to stop from sliding down. Precautions such as insisting on verifiable fact and logical argument. Note that the various strong refutations of his premises and argument have simply been ignored by the theorist.
BTW, if you google ' +"four and twenty blackbirds" +pi ', you'll find this person has been pumping his theory all over the interwebs, so there are obviously some heavy ego issues involved.
Quote from: eyeresist on May 08, 2011, 04:59:00 PM
BTW, if you google ' +"four and twenty blackbirds" +pi ', you'll find this person has been pumping his theory all over the interwebs, so there are obviously some heavy ego issues involved.
I am guilty of sharing new information about the enigma on as many appropriate forums as possible. I believe everyone has a right to learn about new ideas so they can decide for themselves if the new information is worthwhile. I am not selling a book or charging a fee, I am mearly pointing out some rather interesting observations. To me, the evidence is very compelling. I was hoping that others would be able to consider evidence presented and make observations of their own to either support this new theory or in support of their own theory. I remain hopeful.
Quote from: nimrod on May 08, 2011, 06:19:35 PM
I am guilty of sharing new information about the enigma on as many appropriate forums as possible. I believe everyone has a right to learn about new ideas so they can decide for themselves if the new information is worthwhile. I am not selling a book or charging a fee, I am mearly pointing out some rather interesting observations. To me, the evidence is very compelling. I was hoping that others would be able to consider evidence presented and make observations of their own to either support this new theory or in support of their own theory. I remain hopeful.
Really?
(http://mynetimages.com/1578a9249d.jpg)