Anyone else here collect symphonies from varied composers? Any great finds? Any disappointments? Any word on ongoing recorded cycles or new one in the works?
Here's a thread for news, reviews, and comments for explorers who enjoy finding great symphonies by composers off the beaten path. I've done some preliminary research, and it looks like there's somewhere around 200-250 different composers whose complete symphonies are in print.
Some news:
Chandos have recorded all the Rota symphonies now. (There's also an older BIS series.)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dyyHLUdPL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
CPO have boxed their complete Sallinen series:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Wv-RuFSJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Brilliant got the rights to Jarvi's old Stenhammar recordings:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WnzfxIAsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Edited for clarity--I hope :D
In reverse order ; )Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 05:07:18 AM
Here's a thread for news, reviews, and comments. I've done some preliminary research, and it looks like there's somewhere around 200-250 different composers whose complete symphonies are in print.
Sacrée vache! So many of them must be heretofore obscurities . . . who, by and large, ought to be allowed to remain obscure ; )Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 05:07:18 AM
Anyone else here collect symphonies from varied composers? Any great finds? Any disappointments?
For me, the good & deserving finds: Langgaard, Holmboe, Toch, Roussel, Wm Schuman For me, the turkeys included: Milhaud, Pettersson I wish there were a complete Mennin cycle! And Wuorinen . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 05:13:33 AM
Sacrée vache! So many of them must be heretofore obscurities . . . who, by and large, ought to be allowed to remain obscure ; )
Them's fightin' words! ;) I prefer to dwell on the positive. So much great stuff off the beaten Beethoven-Bruckner-Brahms path: Arnold, Atterberg, Bax, Farrenc, Frankel, Hindemith, Holmboe, Kalinnikov, Kalliwoda, Kokkonen, Korngold, Kraus, Lilburn, Madetoja, Mathias, Onslow, Pettersson, Rangstrom, Rorem, Rosetti, Rubbra, Simpson, Vanhal, et al.
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 05:39:58 AM
Them's fightin' words! ;)
Yes : )And I appreciate your positive-accentuatin' mission here. Fact is, I do seek out obscurities regularly . . . I find that not all of them engage me with greatness. YMMV
A bti confused as to the purpose of this thread. Is it to list composers who wrote symphonies or to discuss them? If to discuss them, why discuss them here when there are other places to do so (composer pages, for example). Not trying to be difficult, just not quite grasping what we will do here.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 01, 2011, 05:47:53 AM
A bti confused as to the purpose of this thread. Is it to list composers who wrote symphonies or to discuss them? If to discuss them, why discuss them here when there are other places to do so (composer pages, for example). Not trying to be difficult, just not quite grasping what we will do here.
Being GMG, make it what you will. But I did go back and edit the OP to clarify that the focus is on trading news and suggestions regarding symphony cycles off the beaten path. The Composer Discussion and Great Recordings and Reviews fora would indeed be more suitable places for discussing the warhorses: e.g., a new LvB or Mahler set, a comparison of existing ones, etc.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 05:42:05 AM
Yes : )
And I appreciate your positive-accentuatin' mission here. Fact is, I do seek out obscurities regularly . . . I find that not all of them engage me with greatness. YMMV
For the past few years, I've been collecting the complete symphonies of lesser-known composers (and lesser-known symphonies of the big-name composers, such as Wagner). I have to say, the label execs for the most part do their job of sifting the wheat from the chaff quite well. I've been very pleasantly surprised by the overall level of quality, and have come across
many stunners.
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 06:14:23 AM
to clarify that the focus is on trading news and suggestions regarding symphony cycles off the beaten path.
Oh that changes it. I don't what constitutes off of the beaten path.
If there is a complete cycle recorded . . . sounds like a path has been beaten, wot? : )
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 06:41:17 AM
If there is a complete cycle recorded . . . sounds like a path has been beaten, wot? : )
Exactly! ;D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 06:41:17 AM
If there is a complete cycle recorded . . . sounds like a path has been beaten, wot? : )
But not heavily traversed.
One composer who I would tout heavily is Gade, who my ears tell me is a superior grade of Schumann (at least in the orchestral works).
Edit to clarify--superior grade of Schumann means better than Schumann's own works in the genre of the symphony.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 06:41:17 AM
If there is a complete cycle recorded . . . sounds like a path has been beaten, wot? : )
But not beaten to death :D Make of "off the beaten path" what you will, but to me, that means symphonies by composers beyond the Usual Suspects who make up the bulk of concert programming, have a couple dozen integral cycles of their symphonies on record, etc. I.e., not Haydn, Mozart, LvB, Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich, Sibelius, et al.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 01, 2011, 08:07:55 AM
But not heavily traversed.
One composer who I would tout heavily is Gade, who my ears tell me is a superior grade of Schumann (at least in the orchestral works).
Edit to clarify--superior grade of Schumann means better than Schumann's own works in the genre of the symphony.
Speaking of Gade, BIS, offers this inexpensive set:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HcnBjxRhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
BIS also offers budget symphony sets for Schnittke, Tcherepnin, Glazunov, and Alfven (also available from Brilliant).
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 09:42:54 AM
BIS also offers budget symphony sets for Schnittke . . . .
Aye, but . . . four out of five Schnittke fanciers have found the BIS set wanting.
I grant you, Jeffrey & Grazi, the pathly nuance.
Assessing Gade as a symphonist superior to Schumann is an interesting contrarian viewpoint, to which I cannot answer.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 01, 2011, 08:07:55 AM
But not heavily traversed.
One composer who I would tout heavily is Gade, who my ears tell me is a superior grade of Schumann (at least in the orchestral works).
Edit to clarify--superior grade of Schumann means better than Schumann's own works in the genre of the symphony.
I like Gade, but better than Schumann - errr, no. Schumann takes a lot of crap on the symphonies, and I think it is way overstated. But it is unclear to me if you are talking as a whole, in the strutures, or something else. So maybe you have something more specific in mind.
My favorite is Ernest Chausson! Sorry, it had to be said. ;D
Not sure how much beaten are their paths, but the symphony cycles that held in my listening rotations are Martinu, Honegger and Roussel.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 01, 2011, 10:44:14 AM
I like Gade, but better than Schumann - errr, no. Schumann takes a lot of crap on the symphonies, and I think it is way overstated. But it is unclear to me if you are talking as a whole, in the strutures, or something else. So maybe you have something more specific in mind.
Thanks for this! I am not utterly mad for the Schumann symphonies, but I do think very well of them, and I have no quarrel with the orchestration, at all (the usual canard hurtled at 'Gibbering Bob').
I love Schumann's symphonies. In fact, I prefer them over my beloved Brahms' or Mendelssohn's symphonies.
Quote from: Leon on September 01, 2011, 10:58:36 AM
Milhaud a turkey? I think not!
Monsieur, j'ai dit: « pour moi! »: )Only the "grand symphonies" cycle. Lots of other Milhaud I like quite well.
Quote from: Leon on September 01, 2011, 10:58:36 AM
Milhaud a turkey? I think not!
Indeed, he's very clearly a pheasant. ;)
Glad to see love for Roussel's cycle - what superb symphonies they are! I have very good memories of Niels W. Gade's First.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 10:53:54 AM
Thanks for this! I am not utterly mad for the Schumann symphonies, but I do think very well of them, and I have no quarrel with the orchestration, at all (the usual canard hurtled at 'Gibbering Bob').
I should have known I would get a reaction out of my comment! >:D
But I'll try to explain myself a little better.
Part of my reaction to Schumann's orchestral works is due to the fact that I think he wrote some of the best piano and chamber music works in the business, and I find that his orchestral works don't come near to the quality of the other genres. Not just the symphonies, but also the violin and cello concertos--it's only the works for solo piano and orchestra that I think are really good. Maybe his love for Clara got something extra into those. At any rate, the works I don't particularly care for seem to me very much a lot of notes played, in the end, for no real purpose at all. I only have the barest musical training, so I can't point to any specific elements and say it's those things that are flaws. As best as my ears can tell me, it's the structure and the development of the ideas that don't work out very well. I don't hear anything wrong with the orchestration. It's more an overall effect. I have at least three complete sets of the symphonies (Sawallisch, Volk, and Zinman) and none come close to impressing me.
Gade, on the other hand, seems to me to have written the symphonies Schumann wanted to write, with the structural coherence to make it all work together. He's not at the level of Mendelssohn or Brahms, but not very far below them.
I got that BIS box when it was on sale a few months ago at Arkivmusic. I noticed a couple of days ago that BIS is on sale at either Presto or MDT, so that might be a good opportunity to get the set if you don't have it already. It includes, besides the symphonies, Gade's Violin Concerto and a cantata/oratorio thing called "The Crusaders" which is the only performance I don't particularly care for, and that's mostly on account on the tenor involved.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 01, 2011, 05:15:54 PM
Gade, on the other hand, seems to me to have written the symphonies Schumann wanted to write, with the structural coherence to make it all work together. He's not at the level of Mendelssohn or Brahms, but not very far below them.
A most interesting post, and given what you say here about Gade, I'd be interested in your opinion of Jeanne-Louise Farrenc (three symphs.) and Johann Kalliwoda (seven, but most notable are 3 and 5 I think), two more who fall in the "Schumann with verve" category for me. Schumann had written a review of Kalliwoda's Third for the
Zeitung, and read the score to K's Fifth, immediately before embarking on his own symphony cycle.
Quote from: Grazioso on September 01, 2011, 05:07:18 AM
Brilliant got the rights to Jarvi's old Stenhammar recordings:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WnzfxIAsL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Sadly they haven't included Jarvi's recording of the Serenade with the extra movement - that would really sell me on the set.
EDIT: Hey! That's the same pic as on the new issue of Boult's EMI RVW cycle.
I did buy Naxos's Roussel and William Schuman boxes this year. Both extremely well done, though to be honest the music itself rarely rises to what I call greatness.
I would like to get a cycle of Gade, but from what I've read and heard, neither existing cycle is exactly ideal.
BIS's Schnittke cycle was not ideal either, but so inexpensive as to still be worth obtaining (and I think he DOES sometimes rise to greatness).
Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2011, 05:50:03 PM
A most interesting post, and given what you say here about Gade, I'd be interested in your opinion of Jeanne-Louise Farrenc (three symphs.) and Johann Kalliwoda (seven, but most notable are 3 and 5 I think), two more who fall in the "Schumann with verve" category for me. Schumann had written a review of Kalliwoda's Third for the Zeitung, and read the score to K's Fifth, immediately before embarking on his own symphony cycle.
Sadly, I can't tell you what my opinion is of those two composers, since I have never heard (to my recollection--maybe I heard it on the local classical music station when we had one here in Miami) a single note by either one.
Quote from: eyeresist on September 01, 2011, 06:11:11 PM
I did buy Naxos's Roussel and William Schuman boxes this year. Both extremely well done, though to be honest the music itself rarely rises to what I call greatness.
Agree with you regarding Roussel. I skipped the Schuman box.
Quote
I would like to get a cycle of Gade, but from what I've read and heard, neither existing cycle is exactly ideal.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good! The BIS cycle is more than good enough, and the only weak spot for me, as I said before, is The Crusaders; there's nothing in the performances of the symphonies I would complain about.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 01, 2011, 07:04:39 PM
Sadly, I can't tell you what my opinion is of those two composers, since I have never heard (to my recollection--maybe I heard it on the local classical music station when we had one here in Miami) a single note by either one.
Here are a few notes (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12672585/mysteryclip7.mp3) (and a few more (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12672585/mysteryclip7point5.mp3)) from Kalliwoda's Overture No 16, on CPO. A very late work for him - early 1860s - the clips from which appeared in the "Name that piece!" game a few months ago. :)
Roussel's Naxos box I would for the most part put in the "a lot of fun" category rather than the "profound" category, though a few of the works (Symphs. 3 and 4, Suite in F, Bacchus et Ariane) are uncommonly well-built and smartly scored examples of "fun."
For fellow symphony explorers: The following is a tentative list of composers whose complete symphonies have been recorded on CD. I have worked to verify accuracy of those listed, but errors are possible and omissions are likely, given the enormous breadth of classical music on disc. Corrections/additions welcome. Thanks.
A-G
Adams
Albert, S.
Alfano
Alfven
Alnaes
Arensky
Arnell
Arnold
Arriaga
Atterberg
Bach, J.C.
Balakirev
Bantock
Barati?
Barber
Bax
Beach
Beethoven
Berkeley, L.
Berlioz
Bernstein
Berwald
Bischoff
Bizet
Bliss
Bloch
Blomdahl
Boccherini
Borodin
Borreson
Bowen
Braga Santos
Brahms
Britten
Bruch
Bruckner
Burgmuller, N.
Bush
Carpenter
Carter
Casella
Chausson
Chavez
Cherubini
Clementi
Clifford
Collet
Copland
Corigliano
Danzi
Daugherty
Dawson
de Boeck
D'Indy
Dohnanyi
Draeseke
Dukas
Dupre
Dutilleux
Dvorak
Dyson
Eisler
Elgar
Emmanuel
Enescu
Englund
Erdmann
Eybler
Farrenc
Ferroud
Fesca
Fibich
Foerster
Franck
Frankel
Freitas Branco
Gade
Gaubert
Gerhard
Gernsheim
Glazunov
Gliere
Glinka
Goetz
Goldmark
Gottschalk
Gounod
Grechaninov
Grieg
Guilmant
more to come...
You forgot Maurice Emmanuel.
Quote from: Leon on September 02, 2011, 11:14:51 AM
What this tells me is that there are entirely too many symphonies being written.
:P
Impossible, Sir :P
Quote from: The new erato on September 02, 2011, 11:12:08 AM
You forgot Maurice Emmanuel.
A new name to me. Thanks. Amended.
A few cycles that have made huge impressions:
Alfven
Arnold
Atterberg
Braga Santos
Madetoja
Magnard
Myaskovsky
I wasn't too impressed by the conducting in the Glazunov/Brilliant set, so I'm waiting for BIS to box the Serebrier (maybe I should get the Svetlanov?). Also, I just ordered the Stenhammar on Brilliant and am expecting it to arrive soon...
I think also the Swede Natanael Berg is lacking, his first 4 symphonies are available but I'm not completely sure about no 5:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7773242.jpg)
But Franco Alfanos's 2 symphonies have certainly been recorded by cpo.
I wish someone would do a Czerny cycle. I have two discs and 4 symphonies, but no cycle. This one is the place to start:
[asin]B000EQICCS[/asin]
And George Antheil should be appended to the list!
Quote from: The new erato on September 02, 2011, 11:19:19 PM
I think also the Swede Natanael Berg is lacking, his first 4 symphonies are available but I'm not completely sure about no 5:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/7773242.jpg)
According to multiple sources, 6 symphonies written. Looks like only 1-4 recorded so far.
Quote from: The new erato on September 02, 2011, 11:23:19 PM
But Franco Alfanos's 2 symphonies have certainly been recorded by cpo.
Right you are. Thanks.
Quote from: The new erato on September 02, 2011, 11:25:35 PM
And George Antheil should be appended to the list!
Just figuring out how many symphonies he wrote is a challenge :) According to different sources, he wrote 6 numbered symphonies (including two different number 5's), the
Jazz Symphony, a "Symphony" for 5 instruments, and a symphony in F. Any experts here to clarify?
I know 1, 3, 4, 5 (second version "Joyous"), 6, and the Jazz symphony have been recorded. Anyone have further info?
For fellow symphony explorers: The following is a tentative list of composers whose complete symphonies have been recorded on CD. I have worked to verify accuracy of those listed, but errors are possible and omissions are likely, given the enormous breadth of classical music on disc. Corrections/additions welcome. Thanks.
H-P
Halvorsen
Hamerik
Hanson
Harty
Hausegger
Haydn, J.
Haydn, M.?
Henze
Hermann
Herold
Herzogenberg
Hindemith
Hol
Holmboe
Honegger
Huber
Ibert
Ippolitov-Ivanov
Ives
Kabalevsky
Kalinnikov
Kancheli
Khatchaturian
Klami
Kodaly
Kokkonen
Kopylov
Korngold
Kraus (all extant)
Lajtha
Lalo
Landowski
Langaard
Lazzari
Le Duc
Le Penven
Leifs
Leighton
Lilburn
Lindblad
Liszt
Lloyd
Lutoslawski
Lyatoshynsky
Macmillan
Madetoja
Magnard
Mahler
Malipiero1
Marshall-Hall?
Martin
Martinu
Martucci
Mathias
McEwen2
Mehul
Melartin
Mennin3
Messager
Messiaen
Miaskovsky
Mielck
Milhaud
Moeran
Mozart
Nielsen, C.
Nielsen, L.
Norgard
Onslow
Paderewski
Paine
Paray
Parry
Part
Penderecki
Pepping
Peterson-Berger
Pettersson
Pfitzner
Piston
Poulenc
Prokofiev
1. All numbered symphonies. Unnumbered sinfonias, too?
2. Solway Symphony. Earlier rejected symphony in A minor has been revived but not yet recorded?
3. 1 and 2 withdrawn. 3-9 recorded.
In addition to Antheil, anyone know if the complete symphonies/sinfonias of C.P.E. Bach and M. Haydn have been recorded? Thanks.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 05:42:05 AM
Fact is, I do seek out obscurities regularly . . . I find that not all of them engage me with greatness. YMMV[/font]
MM~V. Seeking greats among relative unknowns is what brought me here in the first place. But though I've learned to appreciate several less acclaimed composers, I've yet to "discover" one I'd call "great." If Atterburg is "great," what then do we call Janáček or Dvořák? "Super great"? Brahms or Haydn ... "super duper great"? And what about Bach or Mozart or Beethoven? "Super duper extra colossally great"?
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 09:42:16 AM
MM~V. Seeking greats among relative unknowns is what brought me here in the first place. But though I've learned to appreciate several less acclaimed composers, I've yet to "discover" one I'd call "great." If Atterburg is "great," what then do we call Janáček or Dvořák? "Super great"? Brahms or Haydn ... "super duper great"? And what about Bach or Mozart or Beethoven? "Super duper extra colossally great"?
:D :D :D
Bruckner & Mahler - Super duper extra colossally great to Infinity + 1? :D ;)
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2011, 09:47:15 AM
:D :D :D
Bruckner & Mahler - Super duper extra colossally great to Infinity + 1? :D ;)
or Sibelius "to Infinity
and beyond!" ;) 8)
You bring up an interesting question, DavidRoss. And again, this reminds me of the now closed 'Define greatness in Music' thread. At least I think it's closed, I know there was some hot debate on the issue.
Is there any way, or any room for objectivity in determining greatness, or level of greatness in music? Talking specifically about classical music.
Can one say objectively, 100% - that Beethoven's symphonies are greater than Attenberg's symphonies?
Can one say objectively, 100% - that Beethoven's symphonies are greater than Mahler's symphonies?
I'm just asking - is it possible? How do you draw the line?
Or does one say - Yes, I prefer Attenberg's symphonies over Beethoven's symphonies, but I realize that Beethoven's symphonies are greater works? ???
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 09:42:16 AM
MM~V. Seeking greats among relative unknowns is what brought me here in the first place. But though I've learned to appreciate several less acclaimed composers, I've yet to "discover" one I'd call "great." If Atterburg is "great," what then do we call Janáček or Dvořák? "Super great"? Brahms or Haydn ... "super duper great"? And what about Bach or Mozart or Beethoven? "Super duper extra colossally great"?
Heck, all you really need in music is Bach and Mozart. Everything else is gravy :D
Quote from: Grazioso on September 03, 2011, 10:03:54 AM
Heck, all you really need in music is Bach and Mozart. The rest is noise! :D ;) Fixed! 8)
We just need to define our terms, Ray ... an impossible task among this bunch! ;D
Let's just say that praise from one who clearly recognizes the greatness of, say, Beethoven and Mahler, but who doesn't debase the term by applying it to every fellow who ever wrote a bar of music for string, is far more likely to appeal to my interest when she calls my attention to something she regards as particularly noteworthy.
Quote from: Grazioso on September 03, 2011, 10:03:54 AM
Heck, all you really need in music is Bach and Mozart. Everything else is gravy :D
This reminds me of a particularly pompous former member who made a fetish of sneering at those who enjoyed music written by anyone other than 7 or 8 German speakers from centuries past. But he wouldn't have said, "gravy." ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 10:05:34 AM
We just need to define our terms, Ray ... an impossible task among this bunch! ;D
Let's just say that praise from one who clearly recognizes the greatness of, say, Beethoven and Mahler, but who doesn't debase the term by applying it to every fellow who ever wrote a bar of music for string, is far more likely to appeal to my interest when she calls my attention to something she regards as particularly noteworthy.
I know - I do agree with you David. I think there is (or must be) some level of objectivity. Or, really, perhaps it doesn't really matter anyways, in the grand scheme of things? Just listen to the music you enjoy the most, explore, do whatever you want to in regards to appreciating whatever music you do.
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2011, 10:09:54 AM
I know - I do agree with you David. I think there is (or must be) some level of objectivity. Or, really, perhaps it doesn't really matter anyways, in the grand scheme of things? Just listen to the music you enjoy the most, explore, do whatever you want to in regards to appreciating whatever music you do.
Yep. I really enjoy, for instance, certain works by Barber and Copland, yet I would never think to regard them as "great" composers ... nor is my enjoyment of their music diminished at all by their general reputations as relatively minor figures in the history of music.
Addendum: Nor is my enjoyment of composers I do regard as "great," such as Stravinsky or Sibelius, diminished one bit by others' failure to recognize their stature.
Quote from: DavidRoss on September 03, 2011, 10:44:57 AM
Yep. I really enjoy, for instance, certain works by Barber and Copland, yet I would never think to regard them as "great" composers ... nor is my enjoyment of their music diminished at all by their general reputations as relatively minor figures in the history of music.
Addendum: Nor is my enjoyment of composers I do regard as "great," such as Stravinsky or Sibelius, diminished one bit by others' failure to recognize their stature.
For me, it's simple: listen to what you enjoy. If "greatness" is at issue, establish specific criteria for greatness and offer specific examples from the scores to back your argument. Otherwise, let that sleeping dog lie :)
For fellow symphony explorers: The following is a tentative list of composers whose complete symphonies have been recorded on CD. I have worked to verify accuracy of those listed, but errors are possible and omissions are likely, given the enormous breadth of classical music on disc. Corrections/additions welcome. Thanks.
Q-Z, 75 composers
Rachmaninov
Raff
Rangstrom
Rathaus
Rautavaara
Rawsthorne
Respighi
Reznicek
Ries
Rimsky-Korsakov
Ropartz
Rorem
Rota
Rott
Roussel
Rubbra
Rubinstein
Saint-Saens
Sallinen
Sauguet
Saygun
Schmidt
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Schreker
Schubert
Schuman
Schumann
Scriabin
Searle
Shostakovich
Sibelius
Simpson
Sinding
Smetana
Smith, A.M.
Sorkocevic
Stanford
Stenhammar
Still
Strauss
Stravinsky
Suk
Sullivan
Svendsen
Szymanowki
Tal
Tanayev
Tchaikovsky, P.
Tcherepnin, A.
Thomson
Thuille?
Tippet
Toch
Tournmiere
Tubin
Valen
Vaughan Williams
Verhulst
Vermeulen
Vierne
Villa-Lobos
Volkmann
Vorisek
Wagner, R.
Wagner, S.
Walton
Weber
Webern
Weill
Wellesz
Wetz
Wilson
Wiren?
Yoshimatsu
Yun
Zemlinsky
Combined list=237 composers with 1,212 symphonies :o
Re: comparative greatness
Perhaps we should split the question into different aspects.
1) Some composers appeal to us individually more than others, and we each react to different composers differently. I think Mahler is great, Sibelius not as great. Others would reverse that. I usually talk about a specific composer's music "speaking to me" or not--something of an emotional connection with the music. This aspect of the question is obviously subjective.
2) Certain composers have a wider appeal, or are more enjoyed/connected with by more individuals than others. That wider appeal, while based on individual subjective reactions, results in something objectively measureable (for instance, Beethoven has a wider appeal than Barber, so one can justify on this level saying that Beethoven is a greater composer than Barber. This aspect of the question is both subjective and objective.
3)Finally, certain composers have either achieved a technical mastery far superior to the peers (let's say, Bach and Mozart for examples) or innovated and influenced later composers to a high degree(let's say, Beethoven and Wagner for examples); their impact on the history of music therefore entitles them to the adjective of "great" on an objective level. (And yes, the examples were just for superficial purposes, and I realize that Bach and Mozart were in their own fashion great innovators, and Beethoven and Wagner achieved superior technical mastery.)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 03, 2011, 04:31:13 PM
2) Certain composers have a wider appeal, or are more enjoyed/connected with by more individuals than others. That wider appeal, while based on individual subjective reactions, results in something objectively measureable (for instance, Beethoven has a wider appeal than Barber, so one can justify on this level saying that Beethoven is a greater composer than Barber. This aspect of the question is both subjective and objective.
Well, then that means that 'popularity' is a criteria for objective greatness? Well, I guess it is to some degree.
I've always wondered if each composer were given equal amount of playing time in the concert hall, if our favorites would change over time? I mean, we are told from a very young age that (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) are the greatest composers who ever lived, often without having heard a single note. So, we are automatically faced with a pre-conceived notion that these 3 are the greatest of all time.
I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, Jeffrey, I'm just throwing it out there. Just something that has been on my mind.
Quote from: Grazioso on September 03, 2011, 11:12:27 AM
Combined list=230 composers with 1,146 symphonies :o
of which nearly 10% are by Haydn. :o :o
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2011, 04:41:49 PM
Well, then that means that 'popularity' is a criteria for objective greatness? Well, I guess it is to some degree.
I've always wondered if each composer were given equal amount of playing time in the concert hall, if our favorites would change over time? I mean, we are told from a very young age that (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) are the greatest composers who ever lived, often without having heard a single note. So, we are automatically faced with a pre-conceived notion that these 3 are the greatest of all time.
That's a problem with artistic canons: many people take them on faith. Of all the listeners to classical music who reflexively nod in sage agreement at the statement "Bach is great" or "Beethoven is great," how many are musicians/composers/musicologists who've actually studied the music and compared it extensively and objectively to the work of those composers' contemporaries? Which of them could intelligently articulate their positions and support them with objective evidence? "Whereof one cannot speak, one must remain silent."
And if popularity and cultural impact equal greatness, then The Beatles and Lady Gaga are far more important than Schubert and Bartok :'(
To my mind, the whole idea of establishing hierarchies of artistic greatness is suspect. About the only time I can see it having some sort of useful role to play is in an educational/cultural literacy setting. A humanities or music history professor only has so many days in a semester to introduce students to classical music, so what do you choose? Like it or not, if you want to be "cultured," you need to know your Shakespeare, Michelangelo, and Beethoven. But then, like it or not, you're just perpetuating someone else's ideas.
Most of the time, the whole "greatness" idea seems to be an evasive way of pretending one's subjective impressions are somehow objective truths.
Quote from: The new erato on September 03, 2011, 04:42:34 PM
of which nearly 10% are by Haydn. :o :o
And if I'm not mistaken, CPO have recorded all 41 of brother Michael's symphonies. Haydn family FTW :D
Quote from: ChamberNut on September 03, 2011, 04:41:49 PM
I've always wondered if each composer were given equal amount of playing time in the concert hall, if our favorites would change over time? I mean, we are told from a very young age that (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) are the greatest composers who ever lived, often without having heard a single note. So, we are automatically faced with a pre-conceived notion that these 3 are the greatest of all time.
I've found it's possible to pay lip service to the Greats, and in the meantime listen to the music that I REALLY like ;)
I tried something slightly different some time ago from the other direction, so to speak ;D
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10427.msg260004.html#msg260004
I presume that you are familiar with the fantastic National Discographies published on Musicweb? (Click on 'Resources' at the top of the homepage). For those who want to know what orchestral music has been recorded these discographies are invaluable!!
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 09, 2011, 02:14:54 PMI presume that you are familiar with the fantastic National Discographies published on Musicweb?
I wasn't, but I am now. :D Kudos Colin for mentioning this resource.
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 09, 2011, 02:14:54 PM
I tried something slightly different some time ago from the other direction, so to speak ;D
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10427.msg260004.html#msg260004
I presume that you are familiar with the fantastic National Discographies published on Musicweb?
I'll check out Musicweb's lists and work through your list and correlate it with mine. Depressing to see all the music that still needs to be recorded :'(
My lists are two years old now.
I should update them ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 10, 2011, 06:11:20 AM
My lists are two years old now.
I should update them ;D
The MDG Foerster cycle has been completed.
An impressive list/discography of Russian/Soviet symphonies can be found here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Russian_Discography/Soviet_Symphonies1.htm
Denmark has produced many more symphony composers than those mentioned in the survey so far:
The 9 symphonies of Ib Nørholm (1931 Denmark - ) have been recorded by the Kontrapunkt label about a decade ago. He has an often innovative and original approach to the genre, sometimes incorporating vocal soloists.
Herman David Koppel (1908-1998) wrote 7 well-crafted symphonies, released by Dacapo; Johann Ernst Hartmann´s 4 can be heard on CPO.
Poul Ruders has only written the two recorded so far.
Johannes Frederik Fröhlich, Poul Schierbeck, and Franz Syberg each wrote a symphony, also recorded on CD.
Johann Peter Emilius Hartmann wrote two (Dacapo).
Christoph Ernst Friedrich Weyse wrote 7 that have been recorded, issued originally on the DaCaPo label.
The Late-Romantic works by Louis Glass (7 Symphonies) and Victor Bendix (4) were released by Danacord, but the Glass set especially suffers from very lifeless playing. hopefully CPO will make further plans for recordings, apart from their Rudolph Simonsen and Ludolf Nielsen cycles.
EDIT: there´s a good list of recorded Danish symphonies here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,256.msg279526/topicseen.html#msg279526
The Norwegian 20th-century composer Finn Mortensen wrote an impressive Symphony, issued on CD.
EDIT: there´s a good list of recorded Norwegian symphonies here also :)
And the Slovak Alexander Moyzes´ 12 symphonies, released by Marco Polo, should defininitely be mentioned as well. It will be nice to hear the symphonies by his countryman Karel Boleslav Jirak (6), when someone decides to record them; so far, only no.5 exists, to my knowledge. Likewise the complete symphonies of the Dane Paul von Klenau, despite his regrettable political views (DaCaPo), and that of the talented Peter Arnold Heise.