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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 06, 2011, 06:25:49 AM

Title: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 06, 2011, 06:25:49 AM
inspired by the current "favorite Mahler cycles" thread

Despite the vast proliferation of Mahler recordings in recent decades, and the more advanced recording techniques and greater virtuosity of orchestras, it seems to me that if I were confined to earlier Mahler recordings - say, with an approximate cut-off date of 1970 - I could still put together a really good Mahler cycle.

So what would be your choices for best Mahler recordings made before the 1970s? (date chosen to mark a point at which Mahler was becoming popular, but before we were deluged with choices)

Mine (some of these may be just over the 1970 line, but if so, not by much):

1: Horenstein/LSO
2: Scherchen; Klemperer
3: Haitink; Bernstein
4: Reiner; Szell
5: Solti
6: Barbirolli
7: Bernstein
8: [no choice. maybe Bernstein, but I haven't heard it]
9: Barbirolli
Das Lied: Walter/NYPO; Klemperer

Apart from not having an 8th, this is a list I can live with. Over to you:

Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 07:10:22 AM
1. Kubelik
2. Klemperer
3. Bernstein
4. Horenstein
5. Walter
6. Mitropoulos
7. Bernstein
8. Horenstein
9. Klemperer Ancerl
Das Lied: Klemperer
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Todd on September 06, 2011, 07:11:50 AM
1 - Walter
2 - Klemperer
3 - Kubelik
4 - Abravanel
5 - Bernstein
6 - Bernstein
7 - Kubelik
8 - Bernstein
9 - Walter (CBS)
Das Lied - Klemperer
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Lethevich on September 06, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
1. Kubelik
2. Klemperer
3. Horenstein
4. n/a
5. Barbirolli, Bernstein*
6. Leinsdorf, Szell*
7. Scherchen (either)
8. Horenstein (BBC Legends)*
9. Klemperer, Barbirolli, Walter/WP
DLvdE. Klemperer, Walter

*A new discovery for me, but I guess impressive enough to include
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 07:37:58 AM
1 Horenstein
2 Haitink
3 Horenstein
4 Szell
5 Solti Neumann/Gewandhaus
6 Solti or Szell
7 Bernstein
8 Stokowski
9 Haitink
10 Ormandy


Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Drasko on September 06, 2011, 08:58:05 AM
1 Mitropoulos (Minneapolis or New York), Walter (Concertgebouw or Columbia)
2 Walter (New York)
3 Bernstein (New York)
4 Walter (Seefried, New York)
5 Neumann (Leipzig), Walter (New York)
6 Mitropoulos (Koln)
7 Scherchen (Vienna State Opera), Haitink (Concertgebouw)
9 Walter (Columbia), Haitink (Concertgebouw)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DieNacht on September 06, 2011, 09:24:16 AM
1 Scherchen & early Kubelik/decca
2 Kubelik + Scherchen
3 Scherchen/westminster (some faults though - poor sound, poor singing) + Horenstein
4 Mengelberg
5 Scherchen/westminster (haven´t heard Philadelphia) + Walter NYPO
6 Scherchen/Leipzig + Barbirolli
7 Kubelik
8 Kubelik + Scherchen
9 Walter 1938

This said, there´s a lot of early Mahler I haven´t heard, including for instance, the Bernstein/cbs.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: jwinter on September 06, 2011, 10:59:00 AM
1)  Kubelik
2)  Klemperer
3)  Horenstein, Bernstein
4)  Szell
5)  Barbirolli
6)  Barbirolli
7)  Bernstein
8 ) no preference
9)  Walter
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Lethevich on September 06, 2011, 11:07:24 AM
It looks like I need to hear that Szell 4th - it keeps popping up :)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 06, 2011, 11:07:24 AM
It looks like I need to hear that Szell 4th - it keeps popping up :)

Yeah his 4th and 6th are awesome! :)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: madaboutmahler on September 06, 2011, 12:08:11 PM
1. Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks/Kubelik
2. Concertgebouw/Haitink
3. New York Philharmonic/Bernstein
4. don't think I have heard any made before 1970....
5. New Philharmonia/Barbirolli
6. Chicago Symphony Orchestra/Solti
7.don't think I have heard any made before 1970....
8. Chicago Symphony Orchestra (just one year over ;) )
9. Concertgebouw/Haitink
Das Lied. Vienna Symphony/Krips

This list would have been so much easier to make if it had been pre-1980's! That's when the likes of Karajan, more Bernstein, more Solti (etc) emerged! :)

Daniel
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: not edward on September 06, 2011, 12:11:33 PM
I'd have a lot of trouble over some of these, however ones I can safely list:

1. Kubelik
2. Scherchen
4. Reiner
5. Barbirolli
6. Barbirolli
7. Scherchen (any of them, really), Kubelik
9. Ancerl

The Baker/Kmentt/BRSO/Kubelik Das Lied is about 60 days too late to get in.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: jwinter on September 06, 2011, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: edward on September 06, 2011, 12:11:33 PM
I'd have a lot of trouble over some of these, however ones I can safely list:

1. Kubelik
2. Scherchen
4. Reiner
5. Barbirolli
6. Barbirolli
7. Scherchen (any of them, really), Kubelik
9. Ancerl

The Baker/Kmentt/BRSO/Kubelik Das Lied is about 60 days too late to get in.

Dude, how could I forget Ancerl!  Ancerl's 9th is absolutely top-notch.....
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Drasko on September 06, 2011, 01:01:34 PM
Quote from: jwinter on September 06, 2011, 12:38:58 PM
Dude, how could I forget Ancerl!  Ancerl's 9th is absolutely top-notch.....

Same here ::)

Maybe even more interesting would be to set cut off point earlier, probably pre-Berstein New York cycle because those recordings get usually mentioned as start of Mahler recording boom.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 02:23:22 PM
Oh woops!!  I change my 9th to Ancerl, how could I forget as well. ::)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:28:25 PM
Quote from: edward on September 06, 2011, 12:11:33 PM
The Baker/Kmentt/BRSO/Kubelik Das Lied is about 60 days too late to get in.

I thought Baker/King/Haitink might qualify, but no: 1975.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:30:09 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 06, 2011, 11:07:24 AM
It looks like I need to hear that Szell 4th - it keeps popping up :)

It is a great performance, more molded, more "romantic" than his 6 and 9.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2011, 02:31:31 PM
Despite the sudden surge for Ancerl 9, I'm sticking with Haitink. Still one of the greatest Ninths I know.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: not edward on September 06, 2011, 02:47:27 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 02:23:22 PM
Oh woops!!  I change my 9th to Ancerl, how could I forget as well. ::)
Indeed. To throw up a blast from the past, I think Steve Molino recommended it to you, and then you recommended it to me. :)

I'd add a missing Szell to the 4ths--I don't like his 6th as much as many others, but think the 4th is very fine.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 06, 2011, 03:16:56 PM
Oh yeah that's right! :)  I had a little Ancerl craze after that, got some of his Dvorak and I think Janacek.  He is a great conductor.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Martin Lind on September 06, 2011, 05:31:16 PM
1. Abravanel
2. Abravanel, Bernstein
3. Abravanel
4. Szell
5. Bernstein
6. Szell, Abravanel
7. Abravanel
8. Abravanel
9. Abravanel

Abravanel was the first Mahler cycle besides Bernstein and it is the better one  IMHO. Some of these recordings may be a bit later then 1970.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: mjwal on September 07, 2011, 04:20:20 AM
There are numerous pre-70s recordings of M's Lieder, hitherto unmentioned - recordings by Schlusnus, Poell etc/Prohaska, Ferrier, Forrester, Baker, even FiDi, Ludwig, you name 'em. Ditto DLvdE, Walter/VPO, Schuricht, Klemperer 1 and 2, van Beinum, Jochum...
1. Mitropoulos NYPO/Ancerl
2. Scherchen, Klemperer
3. Adler (either, but prefer the studio), Scherchen 1950 - both have the inestimable Rössl-Majdan - and Barbirolli/Hallé
4. Walter/Seefried 1950 or Walter/Schwarzkopf 1960.
5. Mitropoulos/Scherchen
6. Mitropoulos NYPO or Köln
7. Rosbaud, Scherchen or Horenstein
8.  I don't really respond to it; perhaps a new=listenable transfer of the Mitropoulos
9. Ancerl or Rosbaud
10. Adagio: Sebastian or Mitropoulos
I would be so happy if Mitropoulos had recorded them all. His NYPO recording of #3 is spoilt by cuts and singing in English, I haven't heard the Köln (his very last performance) yet. Ancerl only did the two, more's the pity, but I believe there is a Rosbaud #6 and perhaps more waiting in the wings.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Roberto on September 07, 2011, 05:07:20 AM
I don't have many Mahler before 1970 but I think the 4th with Mengelberg/COA has to be part of all serious collection. And there is an interesting recording with Oskar Fried from 1924 released by Naxos (acoustical recording). I don't have it but I've heard part of it.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 07, 2011, 05:09:19 AM
I thought that I didn't like Horenstein, but you guys despise him so much that most of y'all would rather not list anything for the 8th than list Horenstein's legendary recording! :D  wow just wow :o
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 07, 2011, 05:42:54 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 07, 2011, 05:09:19 AM
I thought that I didn't like Horenstein, but you guys despise him so much that most of y'all would rather not list anything for the 8th than list Horenstein's legendary recording! :D  wow just wow :o

Yeah, we've all been reading the Hurwitzer  :D

Actually I like some Horenstein recordings. He was often let down though by poor playing and sound, so listening can be a frustrating experience.

Interesting to see a mention of that Mahler pioneer, F. Charles Adler. And who could forget such early Mahlerists as Eduard Flipse (anyone heard his 6th?), and that fine gentleman Viscount Hidemaro Konoye, who led the first recording of the 4th Symphony.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 07, 2011, 07:08:50 AM
I think the 8th benefited the most from modern sonics and very careful engineering and microphone placement.  Not that I'm an audiophile... ;D
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 07, 2011, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 07, 2011, 05:09:19 AM
I thought that I didn't like Horenstein...

You confuse me, David. You say you don't like Horenstein but you chose his Fourth and Eighth?? So which is it: love or hate?

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Jay F on September 07, 2011, 04:26:53 PM
1-3. Bernstein
4. Mengelberg
5. Solti
6-10. Bernstein
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: eyeresist on September 07, 2011, 08:35:49 PM

Looks like I need to hear some Scherchen.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: val on September 08, 2011, 01:02:24 AM
1 -  Horenstein (LSO) or Walter (Columbia Orchestra)

2 - Klemperer (Philharmonia) or Walter (NYP)

3 - Charles Adler (Konzertverein Orchestra)

4 - Szell (Cleveland)

5 - Solti (Chicago)

6 - Bernstein (NYP)

7 - Bernstein (NYP)

8 - Solti (Chicago) or Kubelik (BRO)

9 - Ancerl (CPO)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 07:11:12 AM
Quote from: Drasko on September 06, 2011, 01:01:34 PM
Maybe even more interesting would be to set cut off point earlier, probably pre-Berstein New York cycle because those recordings get usually mentioned as start of Mahler recording boom.

Agreed! For that reason, I'll include a second choice in brackets, using 1965 (inclusive) as a cut-off, where applicable.

This is an interesting thread! :D


My choices:


1: Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (1967) [Mitropoulos, Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra (1940)]

2: Klemperer, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (1965)

3: Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (1961)

4: Szell, Cleveland Orchestra (1965)

5: Barbirolli, New Philharmonia Orchestra (1969) [Walter, New York Philharmonic (1947)]

6: Szell, Cleveland Orchestra (1967) [Mitropoulos, New York Philharmonic (1955)]

7: Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (1965)

8: Horenstein, London Symphony Orchestra (1959)

9: Walter, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (1936)

Das Lied: Ludwig, Wunderlich, Klemperer, (New) Philharmonia Orchestra (1966) [Ferrier, Patzak, Walter, VPO (1952 Live)]
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 08:07:36 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned Kletzki's 4th with Emmy Loose.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
Quote from: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 08:07:36 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned Kletzki's 4th with Emmy Loose.

For me, that's because its existence had completely eluded me until now. Duly noted! :)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 09:51:13 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 07, 2011, 03:26:27 PM
You confuse me, David. You say you don't like Horenstein but you chose his Fourth and Eighth?? So which is it: love or hate?

Sarge

Sarge are there only two choices for you: love or hate? :D  I dislike Horenstein, but there are not many choices in historical Mahler recordings, and for those two Horenstein fits the bill.  Adding in the plethora of recordings after 1970 I can throw Horenstein under the bus and never look back!  But this poll is much more restrictive.

No my choice is perfectly logical.  It's everyone else that has to explain themselves: if y'all like Horenstein why are so many of you just leaving the 8th blank?  I'm not a fan, but I will admit that his recording of the 8th in the Royal Albert Hall is one of the top choices from that era.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 09:54:23 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 09:51:13 AM
Sarge are there only two choices for you: love or hate? :D  I dislike Horenstein, but there are not many choices in historical Mahler recordings, and for those two Horenstein fits the bill.  Adding in the plethora of recordings after 1970 I can throw Horenstein under the bus and never look back!  But this poll is much more restrictive.

No my choice is perfectly logical.  It's everyone else that has to explain themselves: if y'all like Horenstein why are so many of you just leaving the 8th blank?  I'm not a fan, but I will admit that his recording of the 8th in the Royal Albert Hall is one of the top choices from that era.

?!

Where's Sarge's bazooka when you need it?


Re: the 8th, people may be leaving it blank because a) they feel it only works in hi-fi, or b) they just don't like the piece.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
For me, that's because its existence had completely eluded me until now. Duly noted! :)

The latest release is the one below, though I think the remasters are whatever was lying around already.  More importantly, you also get a DLvdE with two male voices: Fischer-Dieskau and Murray Dickie.

[asin]B000B668U4[/asin]

Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 10:02:10 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 09:54:23 AM
?!

Where's Sarge's bazooka when you need it?

But it's a fact!  The Mahler recordings didn't really explode in numbers until more recent times.


QuoteRe: the 8th, people may be leaving it blank because a) they feel it only works in hi-fi, or b) they just don't like the piece.

That's a shame if (b) is true (but understandable), what kind of Maherlites are those? :-\  But regarding (a), I don't know what you mean.  Wouldn't you play all of your cds on your hi-fi?  What does it mean for something to not "work in hi-fi"? ???
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Drasko on September 11, 2011, 10:05:44 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 10:02:10 AM
That's a shame if (b) is true (but understandable), what kind of Maherlites are those? :-\ 

Mahler-lites, like me.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 10:30:39 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 10:02:10 AM
But it's a fact!  The Mahler recordings didn't really explode in numbers until more recent times.


That's a shame if (b) is true (but understandable), what kind of Maherlites are those? :-\  But regarding (a), I don't know what you mean.  Wouldn't you play all of your cds on your hi-fi?  What does it mean for something to not "work in hi-fi"? ???

Note how I didn't say 'work in the hi fi'; I meant 'work in high fidelity audio'.

In other words, I'm sure there are people who will not acknowledge a recording of the 8th that is not in glorious modern sound, no matter how well-performed, or how good the reading. That's distinct from being a Mahler-lite!

(Love the term BTW, Drasko. ;D)


As for the other comment, you're right in that there was an explosion in the number of recordings, but you are not right in saying "there are not many choices in historical recordings", unless by 'many' you mean 'many hundreds'. There's probably more choice in pre-1970 historical Mahler recordings than there is for many, even semi-famous composers' entire catalogues!
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Amfortas on September 11, 2011, 10:42:52 AM
1 Horenstein/LSO
2 Klemperer (EMI Studio or live from same period)
3 Horenstein/LSO
4 Walter/NYP
5 Solti/Chicago
6 Bernstein/NYP
7 No real preference
8 Bernstein LSO (imho, a great performance)
9 Klemperer/ New Phil EMI (a towering, shattering performance)
10 no preference
DAS LIED: Klemperer EMI/Ludwig/Wunderlich
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 10:43:25 AM
Many hundreds!?  I don't think so.  A few dozen yeah, but many hundreds would characterize all Mahler recordings period.

Thanks for the clarification on the hi-fi thing.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 10:43:25 AM
Many hundreds!?  I don't think so.  A few dozen yeah, but many hundreds would characterize all Mahler recordings period.

I think this really isn't your day for reading comprehension, David. :D

Read again. I said historical choices in Mahler are only few if your definition of 'many' is 'many hundreds', which of course there simply weren't back then. But there were still many choices, if you're willing to consider a good few dozen 'many'.

So: you think there weren't many Mahler recordings to choose from, pre-1970. I think there definitely were.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 11, 2011, 11:22:04 AM
Now, I'd like to broaden the question a bit.

I think we've established that there are lots of good and great Mahler recordings from before the 1970 cutoff. In view of this, do you believe that the earlier Mahler is superior to the later Mahler?

I can't give a straight yes/no answer to this. But I do think there is more "pioneering spirit" in those earlier recordings, and this makes them particularly attractive. It's not something that's easy to define; but it feels like it's there.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 11:37:20 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 11, 2011, 11:22:04 AM

I can't give a straight yes/no answer to this. But I do think there is more "pioneering spirit" in those earlier recordings, and this makes them particularly attractive. It's not something that's easy to define; but it feels like it's there.

I think you hit the nail in the head as to what makes earlier Mahler special.

Does it also make it somehow superior? Not on account of its being earlier. But maybe on account of particular exponents of the early period, on an individual basis. Klemperer's Mahler is superior to Chailly's, but not (IMO) because it's 'old school'.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 11:49:13 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
I think this really isn't your day for reading comprehension, David. :D

You mistakenly used an adjective as a noun (hi-fi), where the noun is accepted use and the adjective is not, and now you mock me for misunderstanding your mangling of the English language? 

How many recordings can you list for Mahler's 8th symphony recorded before 1970?  Are you going to list a dozen or less and say that's technically many in comparison to Zemlinsky?  Is that your point?  Because that's pretty weak.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 11:53:05 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 11, 2011, 11:22:04 AM
I think we've established that there are lots of good and great Mahler recordings from before the 1970 cutoff. In view of this, do you believe that the earlier Mahler is superior to the later Mahler?

I can't give a straight yes/no answer to this. But I do think there is more "pioneering spirit" in those earlier recordings, and this makes them particularly attractive. It's not something that's easy to define; but it feels like it's there.

I believe that later Mahler recordings are clearly superior to early Mahler recordings.  I do not think that there is a pioneering spirit, if anything I think the opposite.  Most of the recordings listed are not special, many of them are just run throughs to get them on record made by conductors and orchestras that were busy trying to commit every conceivable masterpiece to lp or radio broadcast.  Newer recordings show conductors that took considerable time deciding on their interpretation for a specific Mahler symphony.  As a result there is much more variety in performance and more of a sense of a personal statement in modern Mahler recordings.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 12:05:51 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 11, 2011, 11:49:13 AM
You mistakenly used an adjective as a noun (hi-fi), where the noun is accepted use and the adjective is not, and now you mock me for misunderstanding your mangling of the English language? 

How many recordings can you list for Mahler's 8th symphony recorded before 1970?  Are you going to list a dozen or less and say that's technically many in comparison to Zemlinsky?  Is that your point?  Because that's pretty weak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fidelity

"High fidelity—or hi-fi—reproduction is a term used by home stereo listeners and home audio enthusiasts (audiophiles) to refer to high-quality reproduction of sound [1] or images, to distinguish it from the poorer quality sound produced by inexpensive audio equipment."

I am happy to not need to offend people for momentary misapprehension of a term's conventional scope, or an apparent difficulty with pragmatics on their behalf, and will expand my previous statement to 'this is probably not your day', period.

Least of all for making a claim that ranges over 'historical Mahler recordings', then arbitrarily limiting it to 'historical Mahler recordings of the 8th symphony' when I try to explain to you that your (original) claim is either badly phrased, or inaccurate.

1: There were numerous Mahler to choose from before 1970.

2: There were not numerous Mahler 8ths, or for that matter 7ths, to choose from before 1970.

1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive. My point still stands, however offensive it may be to you.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 12:41:45 PM
I've read less than flattering things about the Kempe - but Boult's should be an interesting recording.

Anyone acquainted with it?
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 01:30:07 PM
Quote from: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 10:30:39 AM
Note how I didn't say 'work in the hi fi'; I meant 'work in high fidelity audio'.

Oh, jeez, I know exactly what you meant; Maybe DW is having a bad day.

Now as for whether recordings from the CD Mahler boom are better, I do think some older recordings are riding on the reputation they got because there was less competition at the time.  I think Bernstein's first cycle and several of Klemperer's recordings still hold up, though.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 01:59:13 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 01:30:07 PM
Maybe DW is having a bad day.

That's what I tried to suggest, after I 'mangled' the English language by using 'hi fi' as per its primary definition as a noun.

Must be a hell of a bad day. :(


Edit: And I'm inclined to echo your sentiment over older recordings sometimes riding on reputation, though I can't at the moment think of a historical Mahler recording, specifically, that was lauded in its era, and is actually not all that good.

There's an interesting exercise: overrated historical Mahler, anyone?
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: eyeresist on September 11, 2011, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 01:30:07 PMOh, jeez, I know exactly what you meant; Maybe DW is having a bad day.

I think maybe the thread is having a bad day  :-\

Quote from: Daverz on September 11, 2011, 01:30:07 PMNow as for whether recordings from the CD Mahler boom are better, I do think some older recordings are riding on the reputation they got because there was less competition at the time.  I think Bernstein's first cycle and several of Klemperer's recordings still hold up, though.

I think Walter's 1938 9th is still the one to beat.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2011, 03:45:39 AM
Quote from: Renfield on September 11, 2011, 09:24:29 AM
For me, that's because its existence had completely eluded me until now. Duly noted! :)

Tsk.tsk.

http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 12, 2011, 04:23:01 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2011, 03:45:39 AM
Tsk.tsk.

http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=1192)

I shall repent for my sin in due time, by means of monetary donation to Amazon, and reception of the Inspired Kletzki 4th. 0:)

The Neumann 7th also looks like a very intriguing proposition - especially given the relative dearth of early 7ths.

(You've a typo in the Mahler 8th, BTW.)



And, pace eyeresist, I don't think the thread is having a bad day at all: just fairly divergent views on early Mahler!

Surely that's the point?


Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: not edward on September 12, 2011, 06:14:47 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2011, 04:06:34 AM
No. 7
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002C5Z56.01.L.jpg)
Vaclav Neumann, Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002C5Z56/goodmusicguide-20)
This is a very recent discovery for me... while in Leipzig for the Mahler-Fest (where the 7th was the best performance (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html)) I found this on the Naxos Music Library. What an absolutely terrific, awesome performance!
To call this tempting would be the understatement of the decade. To the wishlist it goes!
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: DavidW on September 12, 2011, 01:34:22 PM
Renfield you're right I was having a bad day.  I had a heachache, was irritable and overly sensitive.  I understand what you mean now.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Renfield on September 12, 2011, 02:14:25 PM
Quote from: DavidW on September 12, 2011, 01:34:22 PM
Renfield you're right I was having a bad day.  I had a heachache, was irritable and overly sensitive.  I understand what you mean now.

No worries. :)
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 12, 2011, 02:33:48 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2011, 04:06:34 AM

No. 5
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001MWM13Y.01.L.jpg)
Vaclav Neumann, Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001MWM13Y/goodmusicguide-20)
JUST edging out the DG Kubelik (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-5-Gustav/dp/B00000E4H3/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1315828294&sr=1-1), which is also one of my favorites. (Much better than the slower Audite recording from the 80s.)

I didn't forget about that...I just assumed it was a 70s recording. Time to change my list.

Sarge
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: jlaurson on September 12, 2011, 04:33:53 PM
1967 was a very good year...

No. 1
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00008K4X2.01.L.jpg)
1962
Otmar Suitner, Staatskapelle Dresden
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008K4X2/goodmusicguide-20)
(Kubelik is another strong contender, of course, but my preferred Kubelik (live, BRSO, audite) isn't before 1970s.)

No. 2
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TEUZ.01.L.jpg)
1975
Zubin Mehta, WPh
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004TEUZ/goodmusicguide-20)
(Cheating: 1975 recording. Maybe I can think of one for the required time period that's really stunning.)

No. 3
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000649Q4.01.L.jpg)
1967
RafaelKubelik, BRSO
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000649Q4/goodmusicguide-20)
This is, I suppose, where Horenstein ought to be. But while I appreciate that Third, I simply haven't quite come
around to thinking it's truly the bee's knees.

No. 4
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000B668U4.01.L.jpg)
1957
Paul Kletzki, Philharmonia
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000B668U4/goodmusicguide-20)
That was easy; it's in my top-3, even without statute of limitations applied.

No. 5
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001MWM13Y.01.L.jpg)
1967
Vaclav Neumann, Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001MWM13Y/goodmusicguide-20)
JUST edging out the DG Kubelik (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-5-Gustav/dp/B00000E4H3/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1315828294&sr=1-1), which is also one of my favorites. (Much better than the slower Audite recording from the 80s.)

No. 6
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B001EC6JOE.01.L.jpg)
1967
Sir John Barbirolli, Philharmonia
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001EC6JOE/goodmusicguide-20)
Looove it! British Bulldog drags Mahler through the Alps.

No. 7
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0002C5Z56.01.L.jpg)
1969?
Vaclav Neumann, Gewandhaus Orchester Leipzig
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002C5Z56/goodmusicguide-20)

This is a very recent discovery for me... while in Leipzig for the Mahler-Fest (where the 7th was the best performance (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html)) I found this on the Naxos Music Library. What an absolutely terrific, awesome performance!

Not out on CD, but extant on LP, is a Leizpig Neumann Mahler 6th (!!)
Would be the same that was--along with the 5th (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=270783143909)--published by Philips, back in the days? (The 5th made it onto an early CD as well.)


No. 8
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W9uAbHjKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
1960
Dimitri Mitropoulos , WPh
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001R3E2/goodmusicguide-20)
Fairly easy choice, too...
By the way: The Mitropoulos Mahler Box with 1,3,5,6,8,9 + Adagio is available again. In the US (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000009CO7/goodmusicguide-20), UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000009CO7/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000009CO7), and Germany (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000009CO7/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B000009CO7).

DLvdE
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00001IVQU.01.L.jpg)
1966
Leonard Bernstein, WPh
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001IVQU/goodmusicguide-20)
One of the best Lied recordings, to this day.

No. 9
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00066FAB2.01.L.jpg)
1966
Karel Ancerl, Czech PO
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00066FAB2/goodmusicguide-20)
I've long promoted this 9th, I won't disown it now. Wonderful recording.

No.10
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000F6YW1M.01.L.jpg)
1965
Eugene Ormandy, Philadelphia Orchestra
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000F6YW1M/goodmusicguide-20)
I reckon that's the only choice that qualified, huh?
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: kishnevi on September 12, 2011, 05:55:08 PM
Quote from: jlaurson on September 12, 2011, 04:33:53 PM


DLvdE
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00001IVQU.01.L.jpg)
1966
Leonard Bernstein, WPh
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001IVQU/goodmusicguide-20)
One of the best Lied recordings, to this day.


Jens, have you had a chance to listen to the Wunderlich/Fischer-Dieskau/Krips performance from 1964 DG released earlier this year? 
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2011, 01:26:52 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 12, 2011, 05:55:08 PM
Jens, have you had a chance to listen to the Wunderlich/Fischer-Dieskau/Krips performance from 1964 DG released earlier this year?

Nope, not the new version yet. An old unacceptable (sound-quality-wise) pirate copy once (and not even all the way through)... but then it didn't feel like there was even merit in trying to hear if there was something in it. That issue has been taken care of, I understand, so I am obviously looking forward to hearing it... although I'd still rather imagine a Windgassen-Fischer-Dieskau version to float around somewhere... he's the tenor for DLvdE that I imagine might have been perfect. Alternatively, in my hypothetical alternate reality, I'd like for Mahler to have gotten to properly re-orchestrate the piece which, if he had ever heard it, he'd undoubtedly have done.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Drasko on September 13, 2011, 06:26:50 AM
Does anyone know why is there no recorded Mahler from Clemens Krauss? He conducted complete Mahler cycle (or near complete, due to him being ill some other people conducted 8th and 9th) in 1925 in Vienna with Wiener Symphoniker (or whatever they were called back then). Did he drop Mahler from his repertoire later on, or was it just not caught on records (his discography is rather erratic for most part)? I keep thinking that from such fine Strauss and Wagner conductor should come more than decent Mahler.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: André on July 30, 2021, 09:05:31 AM
1- Walter
2- Scherchen or Walter
3- Horenstein or Haitink
4 - Rankl, van Otterloo or Swarowsky
5- Neumann Leipzig
6 - Barbirolli NPO
7- Scherchen
8- Mitropoulos
9- Walter Columbia, Ludwig LSO
Das Lied: Bernstein WP
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 30, 2021, 09:18:53 AM
Mine has changed a little since 10 years ago:

1: Horenstein/LSO
2: Scherchen; Klemperer
3: Haitink; Horenstein
4: Reiner; Szell
5: Kubelik
6: Barbirolli
7: Bernstein
8: Solti (1971, so close enough to cut-off date)
9: Barbirolli; Haitink
Das Lied: Walter/NYPO; Klemperer
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Jo498 on July 31, 2021, 11:05:44 AM
With star would be a favorite regardless of date.

1 Walter/Columbia*, Kubelik*
2 Klemperer/Philharmonia*, Bernstein/NYPO*, Scherchen
3 Bernstein/NYPO [more recent fav: Gielen]
4 Abravanel/Davrath*
5 Kubelik [more recent fav Bernstein/Vienna]
6 Mitropoulos or Bernstein [more recent favs Kondrashin, Bernstein/Vienna]
7 Bernstein/NYPO [more recent favs Kondrashin, Gielen]
(8) pass - still don't know the piece well and have not yet heard an older recording
9 Klemperer [more recent/other favorites Maderna BBC (live 1971 but published later), Gielen/SWR, maybe more]

Das Lied von der Erde: Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig* (other favorite would be like Kubelik/Kmentt/Baker which is also from 1970 but was not published until 30 years later or so, I believe)
Wunderhorn-Lieder: Prohaska/Forrester/Rehfuss*, Morris/Baker/Evans*
Kindertotenlieder, Rückert-Lieder: Christa Ludwig's earlier recordings (with Klemperer and Vandernoot, IIRC)
Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen Kubelik/Fischer-Dieskau* or Morris/Hermann* (mid-1970s)

So for 1,2,4 and most of the lieder my absolute favorites are before/around 1970 but I could also live contently with the "older" favs of the other pieces.
Title: Re: Mahler before 1970: Your Preferences
Post by: Crudblud on August 02, 2021, 11:35:05 AM
Some of these are my all-time favourites, never mind before '70.

1 - Kubelík '68
2 - Scherchen '58
3 - Adler '52
4 - Reiner '59*
5 - Walter '47
6 - Barbirolli '67
7 - Scherchen '65
8 - Scherchen '51
9 - Walter '61
DLvdE - Klemperer '67

*need to revisit Mengelberg '39, all I remember of it is the spectacular first movement