(Having gone through Sara's splendid Index of Composer Threads I have identified 65 composers who have no thread devoted to them and whose music I admire. So, on the basis of trying to add one every or most days ;D ;D......)
Stanley Bate was one of the more tragic figures of mid 20th century British music. He grew up in Plymouth and showed precocious talent as a very young man. Bate studied at the Royal College of Music in London as a pupil of Vaughan Williams, Gordon Jacob and Arthur Benjamin. He then went to Europe to study under Hindemith and Nadia Boulanger.
Bate married the Australian composer Peggy Glanville-Hicks and travelled with her to the USA and Australia. In common with a number of other British composers(Benjamin Britten and Richard Arnell spring to mind) Bate was in the USA when the Second World War broke out in 1939. Like Arnell Bate had considerable success during the period from 1940 onwards in having his music played in the US, conducted (as was Arnell's) by eminent conductors including Sir Thomas Beecham.
Bate was divorced from Peggy Glanville-Hicks in 1948 and subsequently married a Brazilian diplomat. He returned to Britain in 1949 but-again the parallel with Arnell is remarkable-found that his absence from his native country for so long had done him no favours. He enjoyed a brief period of exposure when his Third Symphony was performed at the Cheltenham Festival in 1954 conducted by Barbirolli but his last few years were extraordinarily sad. He continued to compose-almost frantically it seemed-but his lifestyle became increasingly chaotic. Bate died at the age of 47-of utter exhaustion or alcohol abuse(or indeed both).
In total Bate composed four symphonies, of which Nos. 2, 3 and 4 are extant, five piano concertos(the fifth unfinished), one double piano concerto, three violin concertos and concertos for viola, for cello and for harpsichord.
For many years a substantial number of British music lovers have been asking and hoping for an opportunity to hear some of Bate's music. At last that opportunity has been granted with the recent release by that wonderful company Dutton of three cds containing respectively the Third Symphony, the Fourth Symphony and the Viola Concerto.
To my mind these cds have been a revelation. Yes, it is true that Bate was to a considerable degree in thrall to his teacher Vaughan Williams...but there is no real harm in that :)
The symphonies are hugely impressive works and have received very favourable reviews in the music press in this country. They are grand, thrilling, sometimes quite angry works which combine the influences of RVW, Hindemith, Shostakovich and some of the American symphonists Bate must have been familiar with during his sojurn in the States(Harris, Piston, Schuman, for example). The Viola Concerto is (hugely) influenced by RVW but a quite superb work in its own right, beautiful and moving in my estimation.
My (reasonably well-informed) guess is that Dutton do intend to give us some of the other concertos and they should be well worth hearing in due course.
There is a very detailed and highly informative article about this splendid, previously almost completely forgotten composer and his tragically short life here-
http://www.musicweb-international.com/bate/index.htm
...and I commend this article to anyone interested in exploring the music. I can assure a number of members here with whose musical tastes I am familiar that they will almost certainly be very impressed by Stanley Bate if they have not already encountered the music.
I'll second this enthusiastic endorsement of Stanley Bate, and also echo the hope that Dutton continue to explore the music of this composer particularly focussing on the remaining concertos. In the meantime, there are recordings of the 2nd and 3rd Piano Concertos over at Unsung Composers - admittedly not the most hi-fi quality but very valuable in allowing us to hear the composer himself as the virtuosic soloist -
Piano Concerto No.2, Op.28 (1947)~
Stanley Bate, piano/ BBC SO/ Stanford Robinson (br. date unknown)
Piano Concerto No.3, Op.67 (1951-52)~
Stanley Bate, piano/ Oklahoma City SO/ Guy Fraser Harrison (4/2/1958)
;D
I'm intrigued by the 4th symphony (and indeed everything else), given the varied comments I have read on it - raging from not as impressive as the 3rd, to more so, but in an enigmatic way. I really like the 3rd - I don't find it to be an especially deep work - more a sum of its influences - but Bate synthesises these into its own voice quite beautifully and structurally it is perfect. It's a piece of music that many may find redundant, but its mastery of execution and the composer's evident earnestness to write a "big" work really pay off over its grand sweep. As of yet the 3rd is the only Bate I have heard, though.
Thanks for that interesting background story, Colin. I have listened to symphonies 3 and 4. They are clear, well-made and very accessible, but didn't make too much of an impression. It could have been me, though. So I'll give them a second chance soon...
Not as deep as William Mathias symphonies! ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 14, 2011, 07:22:10 AM
Not as deep as William Mathias symphonies! ;D
Go on then....you know what to do ;D ;D
The Dutton CD with Bate's Third Symphony and Chisholm's 'Picures from Dante' is one of my very favourite CDs. Bate's stormy Third Symphony, with its defiant ending is a terrific score as his Symphony No 4. He had quite a tragic life by the sound of it. I admire these symphonies enormously.
Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2011, 11:18:17 AM
The Dutton CD with Bate's Third Symphony and Chisholm's 'Picures from Dante' is one of my very favourite CDs. Bate's stormy Third Symphony, with its defiant ending is a terrific score as his Symphony No 4. He had quite a tragic life by the sound of it. I admire these symphonies enormously.
I forget if I told you, but your constant recommending of that disc eventually prompted me to ask for it as a christmas present. The Chisholm is wonderful too, I agree.
I'll give that Bate, Chisholm and Arnell CD a fresh listen when I am in a receptive mood...
I'm biased towards that glassy, anemic neoclassical stuff though ;D
I was very enthusiastic at first,even to the extent of trying to persuade Chandos to record some Bate (they say they're interested). However,the last time I played these cds I found my enthusiasm had cooled. They are certainly worth hearing. Vaughan williams with a shot of Walton,I thought. The fourth in particular is very tightly argued and at times tightly scored. Yet,somehow there is nothing that really stays in the mind,afterwards. Bate has his own voice there,somewhere,and I will certainly consider buying any new cds that Dutton (or Chandos,if they do?) come out,but there is a lack of genuinely memorable themes. Having said that,the third is still quite a find,though & I am definately looking forward to listening to some of his piano concertos.
I shall have another go. Whatever reservations I have,I do think Bate's music deserves reassessment and his own thread.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 14, 2011, 11:40:44 AM
I forget if I told you, but your constant recommending of that disc eventually prompted me to ask for it as a christmas present. The Chisholm is wonderful too, I agree.
I'm delighted that you enjoyed the CD. I think that the Bate and Chisholm works are something special and Bate's 4th did not disappoint me either. I do find the themes memorable - especially in Bate's Third Symphony. Arnell's 3rd, 4th and 5th were the other great Dutton discoveries for me alongside Arthur Butterworth's very sibelian 4th Symphony and this year it has been David Matthews's Symphony No 6.
Incidentally,regarding his death.Was it drink,lack of sleep or suicide?!!!!
I know what it says on Musicweb,but I have heard/seen various versions of Bates demise.
NB: I still haven't quite made my mind up. I shall put Bate on next. He's definately got something!
NB2: I hope Chandos DO record Stanley Bate & not more York bloomin' Bowen! ::)
Gimmie a B
Gimmie a O
Gimmie a W
Gi.. okay I'll go
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Relistening to Bate's 3rd and am reminded why I like it. I agree, it doesn't have memorable tunes, but it's the drive and earnest quality that pulls me in - I feel that Walton is a particularly great debt here. But where Walton's music was so refined as to sound much more effortless than it must have been to write, Bate's hard work and cut-corners are more audible. It's this perceptable raggedness at times fueling the forward drive opposed to any great sophistication that really appeals to me. This genre of music often sounds so film-ready, but the piece is too rugged and almost feral at times to mistake it for anything other than a real stab at writing meaningful music. It wasn't a fully successful attempt, but the obvious effort makes it a greater work than if it were a mere composerly exercise. I believe some wit or other called Busoni a genius without talent, and this might apply a little bit here.
Edit: goth, it's so condensed too. Despite being a little spare on material, it rockets by.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 14, 2011, 12:46:38 PM
Relistening to Bate's 3rd and am reminded why I like it. I agree, it doesn't have memorable tunes, but it's the drive and earnest quality that pulls me in - I feel that Walton is a particularly great debt here. But where Walton's music was so refined as to sound much more effortless than it must have been to write, Bate's hard work and cut-corners are more audible. It's this perceptable raggedness at times fueling the forward drive opposed to any great sophistication that really appeals to me. This genre of music often sounds so film-ready, but the piece is too rugged and almost feral at times to mistake it for anything other than a real stab at writing meaningful music. It wasn't a fully successful attempt, but the obvious effort makes it a greater work than if it were a mere composerly exercise. I believe some wit or other called Busoni a genius without talent, and this might apply a little bit here.
This is a very eloquent and perceptive analysis of the appeal of Bate's Third Symphony - I entirely agree with you.
I love that 'jazzy'/syncopated (I'm just a listener) in the finale. Now,that IS memorable. Don't get me wrong,I DO like this symphony.
STOP PRESS: Found the 3 Bate cds at last. R Schumanns going off,now to play 'em!
So far,this thread has had more posts than Cyril Scott had hot dinners! Ok,Stanley Bate 3rd is on now. I have a bad feeling I'm going to be eating humble pie,soon! :-[ First bars now. Yep,I was right,it grabs you straight away! Off to eat humble pie now.
Back later after meal of very fine,undeservedly neglected British symphony!
Thank you so much.
PS: While looking for Bate cds found lost stash of cds of Welsh composer beginning with W and ending with S. Reserve meal of fine threadless Whitland born composer for later.
I am on the Bate Fourth now. What a wonderful symphony,full of brooding power. I actually pre-ordered all three of these cds from the Dutton site. The last time I listened to these I must have been in the wrong mood.
Silly me!
The great value of a forum like this is that members may be encouraged to go back, re-listen to and re-evaluate music which they had decided was perhaps not quite as good as a further listening demonstrates :)
Who knows.....if I listen to York Bowen often enough........... ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 14, 2011, 04:42:21 PMWho knows.....if I listen to York Bowen often enough........... ;D ;D ;D
:o * needs to lie down * :o
OT
Enthusiastic review of York Bowen on Musicweb today.
Who knows? I might have to eat humble pie too. :D
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Bowen_sys_CHAN10670.htm
Quote from: vandermolen on September 15, 2011, 12:19:54 AM
OT
Enthusiastic review of York Bowen on Musicweb today.
Who knows? I might have to eat humble pie too. :D
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Bowen_sys_CHAN10670.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Sept11/Bowen_sys_CHAN10670.htm)
Thanks for that link, Jeffrey. I like York Bowen's music a lot, even with the Scottish cavalry riding rough-shod over my love. ;D
I freely concede that it is entirely my own fault for introducing the name of York Bowen into a thread which is supposed to be about Stanley Bate :-[
But let me be quite clear that I have no problem with people liking Bowen's music. I don't...but so what. ;D
What I do have more of an issue with is the fact that over the last two or three years record companies have issued both Bowen's (currently) extant symphonies, all four piano concertos(No.3 in two separate versions), the violin concerto, the viola concerto, the horn concerto and a number of other orchestral pieces, ie virtually Bowen's entire orchestral output.
In that same time not a single piece of orchestral music composed by composers like Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton or William Wordsworth has been recorded. The orchestral music by composers like Benjamin Frankel, Daniel Jones, Robert Simpson, Humphrey Searle which has been released over the past decade or so was mostly recorded quite some time ago now.
In other words there is a marked preference for 'romantic' British music to the exclusion of rather 'tougher' stuff.
Again...I have no problem with modern 'romantic' music. I-obviously-love the music of Stanley Bate and Richard Arnell. But the balance is skewed to an unfair extent, I would argue.
....and it is ironic that this should be coming from someone who was (probably far too over-sensitively) upset when he was roundly abused on this forum and accused of wanting to put people off serialist composers in favour of tonalists ;D
Anyway.....semi-rant over :) :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 15, 2011, 06:19:23 AMBut let me be quite clear that I have no problem with people liking Bowen's music. I don't...but so what. ;D
I get a lot of enjoyment from Bowen's music, whether piano, chamber or orchestral - so, for me, the more the merrier! I quite agree, though, that there is a tendency for recording companies to 'fixate' on certain composers to the detriment of other, equally deserving, causes: Chandos surely have done Bax more-or-less to death (with more than a hint of some barrel-scraping) and I query the wisdom of Naxos trying to apparently record every last scrap of Alwyn. Dutton (fantastic though their ever-expanding catalogue of British music is) have not quite embraced the free-ranging spirit of Lyrita in it's heyday, but who knows what lies in store - every set of releases usually contains something surprising.
Bowen was something of a character and it is endearing to think that he did not take himself too seriously - according to Monica Watson, who lived with Bowen and his wife in the 1950s, he was a passionate maker of jam and "When he made a new batch of jam he put an opus number on it. If he had just written a piece, Op.127 for example, the jam would become Op.128". This perhaps explains a large proportion of the otherwise-unattributed opus numbers in his catalogue: he and his friends literally ate the evidence.
;D
Quote from: Albion on September 15, 2011, 07:24:40 AM
This perhaps explains a large proportion of the otherwise-unattributed opus numbers in his catalogue: he and his friends literally ate the evidence.
;D
:D :D
P.S. Colin has a point - Bowen is certainly on the 'softer' side of Late Romanticism, and 'soft = popular' (not only with toilet paper). Though I 'do' rugged and tough, too (HB, anyone?), I happen to like the dreamers...
Quote from: Albion on September 15, 2011, 07:24:40 AM
Bowen was something of a character and it is endearing to think that he did not take himself too seriously - according to Monica Watson, who lived with Bowen and his wife in the 1950s, he was a passionate maker of jam and "When he made a new batch of jam he put an opus number on it. If he had just written a piece, Op.127 for example, the jam would become Op.128". This perhaps explains a large proportion of the otherwise-unattributed opus numbers in his catalogue: he and his friends literally ate the evidence.
I think that Havergal Brian was a great fan of home-made condiments as well - perhaps this is the key to the British musical identity? ;)
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 15, 2011, 07:45:34 AM
I think that Havergal Brian was a great fan of home-made condiments as well - perhaps this is the key to the British musical identity? ;)
Brian a composer of jamphonies? Never!
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 15, 2011, 07:50:39 AM
Brian a composer of jamphonies? Never!
The occasional trifle too :P
Could I, very respectfully, point out that this thread regarding the British composer Stanley Bate is being derailed by discussion, first about York Bowen(which is my fault)
and, now, about jam and desserts :'( ;D
Please remove any further discussion of Bowen's jam or Brian's trifles to another thread. Thank you. ;) :)
Removed for reasons of taste. :(
Decency and an old-fashioned and thoroughly outdated Victorian sense of decorum inhibits me from making the response I would like to make :o
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 15, 2011, 06:19:23 AM
In that same time not a single piece of orchestral music composed by composers like Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton or William Wordsworth has been recorded.
I am not sure why this is, but perhaps record companies want their sales of each CD to get into double figures ;D
If there is a marked preference for "romantic" British music, I hope it continues a little longer to cover neglected composers.
Atonal lovers have more than enough to be going on with.
Thal
Quote from: Hattoff on September 15, 2011, 12:55:38 PM
Removed for reasons of taste. :(
...."taste....." ::) I smell a rat :)
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: thalbergmad on September 15, 2011, 02:02:50 PM
I am not sure why this is, but perhaps record companies want their sales of each CD to get into double figures ;D
If there is a marked preference for "romantic" British music, I hope it continues a little longer to cover neglected composers.
Atonal lovers have more than enough to be going on with.
Thal
Of course...I fully accept that record companies need to make money and that what sells will largely(if not entirely!) determine what repertoire they choose to record.
But record companies-particularly these days the smaller companies- very frequently "take a punt" on particular composers or on particular pieces of music. A few years back now CPO got an Australian orchestra(the Queensland Symphony Orchestra) and a German conductor(Werner Andreas Albert) to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel and got the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra and Alun Francis to do the same for Humphrey Searle. Hyperion employed Vernon Handley to record all the Robert Simpson symphonies.
People said that Panufnik's symphonies would never be recorded as an integral set because "they would not sell" but CPO is currently using a Polish orchestra to record the lot.
Dutton have recorded most of the orchestral music written by David Matthews, including the first six of his seven symphonies. Now a lot of people would never have heard much if any of Matthews's music and it is certainly no less 'difficult' than that by Fricker, Hamilton or Wordsworth.
In any case, Wordsworth was not a serialist, Hamilton went through a 'serialist' phase but his earlier and later works are tonal and Fricker is only a serialist in a limited sense.
Would their music sell? I don't know. Probably not to any great extent....but, I suspect, more than double figures ;D
I don't really expect a complete set of the symphonies of Arnold Cooke, Fricker, Hamilton or Wordsworth....although I would certainly buy them ;D ;D.....but if folks on here keep demanding more Havergal Brian on disc-as they do, quite rightly too-and Brian is by no means an 'easy' composer ;D then I shall go on plugging the chaps I have mentioned :)
Last night I opened up the first of the huge cardboard boxes from my attic and retrieved the first batch of the 110 tapes I need to digitise to unlock my British music collection.
The tapes appear perfectly preserved in very sturdy individual boxes. I was able to identify the tapes with the two Daniel Jones symphonies(Nos. 3 and 10), his Violin Concerto and Oratorio "St. Peter"- with more to come!
I am delighted to hear that you like cats :) So do I. I have a large, playful male cat.
If you don't remove the photograph of York b***** Bowen from this Stanley Bate thread I shall give my cat free range access to the Daniel Jones tapes to unravel and play with as he will >:D >:D >:D ;D ;D ;D
I'm just worried about what else you're cat might do to those tapes,knowing how some cats mark their territory!!!!! So it's coming down! I certainly can't take any more of it.
Although,on a more postive note,it has given me an idea for a new line in York Bowen horror masks,which I am hoping to have ready by Halloween. Hopefully,these will be more scary than the Frankenstein mask I wore to the fancy dress party last year which only seemed to frighten people when I took it off.
:) :) :)
http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.aspimageid=2766985 (http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.aspimageid=2766985)
Photographers direct have a very interesting photo of Stanley Bate and a seated Vaughan Williams (and some others).If anyone hasn't seen it,it certainly is worth seeing. I am a newbie to hyperlinks,so if this doesn't work,just google the site! Otherwise,Johan,"HE-E-L-P!"
Good luck with those tapes,Dundonnell.
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 16, 2011, 05:29:12 AM
http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.aspimageid=2766985 (http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.aspimageid=2766985)
Photographers direct have a very interesting photo of Stanley Bate and a seated Vaughan Williams (and some others).If anyone hasn't seen it,it certainly is worth seeing. I am a newbie to hyperlinks,so if this doesn't work,just google the site! Otherwise,Johan,"HE-E-L-P!"
Good luck with those tapes,Dundonnell.
Heavens....Bate does look very 'intense' and highly strung in those photos, I would say.
Thanks for the link. Once you get to the site you need to do a search for 'Stanley Bate' and the photos cannot be copied and reproduced without a fee being paid :)
(http://img3.photographersdirect.com/img/262/wm/pd2766985.jpg)
(http://img3.photographersdirect.com/img/262/wm/pd2766986.jpg)
Thank you Johan. The one with VW is a bit of a cracker,in my opinion.
I thought you might ignore the warning!!!!!
He looks a bit like Bernard Haitink.
I was thinking somewhere between Richter and Rawsthorne, although more perculiar than both.
(Hey, we're talking about the right composer again, albeit by way of... tons of others ;D)
They're coming for you Johan >:D
The Ffth(or is it Seventh?) Anglo-Dutch War, known popularly, as the copyr**** war is pending.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 16, 2011, 06:23:55 AM
I was thinking somewhere between Richter and Rawsthorne, although more perculiar than both.
(Hey, we're talking about the right composer again, albeit by way of... tons of others ;D)
Bless You :D
It could be worse,you could be in prison for reproducing photos of a certain pianistically inclined composer.
Great photos of Bate and VW - thanks for posting Johan. I have only ever seen one of Bate before (also with VW at the Cheltenham Festival) although their may also be one of him at a jamming session with York Bowen (sorry Colin ;D).
For completeness' sake:
(http://img3.photographersdirect.com/img/262/wm/pd2766984.jpg)
Nice to see these photos of Stanley Bate.
Yes, it makes a difference, seeing the face behind the music...
Quote from: vandermolen on September 16, 2011, 03:12:59 PM
Great photos of Bate and VW - thanks for posting Johan. I have only ever seen one of Bate before (also with VW at the Cheltenham Festival) although their may also be one of him at a jamming session with York Bowen (sorry Colin ;D).
I am going to ignore this post, Jeffrey, on the basis that it is a singular aberration from a man of your excellent and sound judgment :)
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 16, 2011, 04:35:28 PM
I am going to ignore this post, Jeffrey, on the basis that it is a singular aberration from a man of your excellent and sound judgment :)
Hehe ;D
Listening to Bate's Fourth Symphony tonight - the bleakly defiant conclusion is very moving. What a fine work it is.
I'm ashamed to say that I've not got round to Bate's 4th yet (although I really love the 3rd) - somehow the fact that the Arnell coupling is a 'realisation' has slightly reined-in my usual impetuosity (I greatly enjoy the Arnell discs I have - Symphonies 1-6 and all 4 ballets).
I promise myself that I will get it soon, if only to encourage Dutton to record more Stanley Bate (Piano and Violin Concertos, please)!
;D
Please do ;D
Quote from: Albion on September 28, 2011, 02:47:44 PM
I'm ashamed to say that I've not got round to Bate's 4th yet (although I really love the 3rd) - somehow the fact that the Arnell coupling is a 'realisation' has slightly reined-in my usual impetuosity (I greatly enjoy the Arnell discs I have - Symphonies 1-6 and all 4 ballets).
I promise myself that I will get it soon, if only to encourage Dutton to record more Stanley Bate (Piano and Violin Concertos, please)!
;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 28, 2011, 03:40:10 PMPlease do ;D
I just have (HMV £7.99) - and you know what? It worked:
(http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7282.gif)
Must try that trick again.
;D
Wow, that CD seems custom-aimed at me - I like Reizenstein based on his solo piano and chamber music :)
Oh no! Just when I'm trying to save! :o
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 10, 2011, 09:24:53 AM
Oh no! Just when I'm trying to save! :o
"Come and buy, come and buy ..."
(http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7275.gif) (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7278.gif)
(http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7277.gif) (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7279.gif) (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7280.gif)
(http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7281.gif) (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7282.gif) (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7276.gif)
;D
It worked. Bate & Reizenstein hopped into the Dutton website shopping basket! :o
Sounds an intriguing combination? The only 'Reizenstein' I know are his 'Variations on the Lambeth Walk'!
The Holbrooke sounds intriguing,but hopefully,I can resist................for now! :o
As they used to say in the old comics,Corrr! I can't get over how good the new Dutton cd of music by Bate & Reizenstein is. I do think that all this current obsession with obscure composers has gone a little too in the opposite direction to common sense (any thing obscure is good),but this really IS something. In fact,I can't get enough of it & the cd is currently on 'rpt all'. Marvellous,exciting music,superb playing & recording quality,to match. Everything on this cd is wonderful. Oh,and great cover 'artwork' & booklet notes,too. In fact,I'm so pleased,I've gone back to the Dutton site and ordered the Holbrooke cd as well & sent an email of thanks.
I don't expect the egotistical Holbrooke to be quite as good,but I quite like his quirky,although, uneven muse! And production standards like this DO get you wanting more.
Dutton parcels obviously take longer to travel up to Scotland than to Wales :(
I actually contacted Dutton yesterday about the cd,as I hadn't received it,but it arrived today! I WILL have to put this on again,just in case I wasn't caught up in the excitement of another newly unearthed obscurity. But,I will say,that it isn't often I'm so 'grabbed' by obscurities. And who is this fantastic pianist? I've never heard of him before,although I have a feeling you might have? Have you? :o
As to Unsung Composers. I get you're drift & thank you very much for 'referring me. I will think about it. The forum does seem to have livened up,remarkably, since you and Johan joined!!!! Meanwhile,in the absence of the remaining Daniel Jones symphonies,I will have another stiff drink! :o or two :o :o while you enjoy yours! :o :o
I think you will enjoy this cd. So far,this little collection of obscurities really DOES stand out!
Exciting....I think?
The cd is STILL on 'repeat all'! This is fantastic,I don't want to take it off! Okay,maybe the Bate is the most individual of the two,if I HAVE to choose,but they're both so good. In fact,I really would like to hear more Reizenstein now. Nit picking aside,his Piano Concerto really is a barnstormer in the grand manner & I think Dutton were very wise to put it first,it makes a tremendous opener.
As to the Bate,I know this is hyperbole ( I suppose) but I really do now believe that this is the best British piano concerto I have ever heard & I find it quite astonishing that it has languished unheard for so long. Of course,I rate Bax's 'Winter Legends' very highly,so maybe my judgement is impaired (!),but having said that,much as I love the Bax work & believe it deserves better than it gets,this is INFINITELY more subtle!
As to Franz Reizenstein,more can be found here (IF the link works):
http://www.franzreizenstein.com/ (http://www.franzreizenstein.com/)
The Sinfonietta is wonderful too. And I was just expecting a 'fill up'! Haunting melodies,a bit like early Bliss in few places,but Bate always has his own voice. (I need to spend more time absorbing these). And this is No 1? Hope the other one's extant. I shall look at the Bate work list now.
Outstanding!
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 20, 2011, 07:44:10 AM
Dutton parcels obviously take longer to travel up to Scotland than to Wales :(
Post is slow to East Sussex too - nothing received yet.
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 21, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
The cd is STILL on 'repeat all'! This is fantastic,I don't want to take it off! Okay,maybe the Bate is the most individual of the two,if I HAVE to choose,but they're both so good. In fact,I really would like to hear more Reizenstein now. Nit picking aside,his Piano Concerto really is a barnstormer in the grand manner & I think Dutton were very wise to put it first,it makes a tremendous opener.
As to the Bate,I know this is hyperbole ( I suppose) but I really do now believe that this is the best British piano concerto I have ever heard & I find it quite astonishing that it has languished unheard for so long. Of course,I rate Bax's 'Winter Legends' very highly,so maybe my judgement is impaired (!),but having said that,much as I love the Bax work & believe it deserves better than it gets,this is INFINITELY more subtle!
As to Franz Reizenstein,more can be found here (IF the link works):
http://www.franzreizenstein.com/ (http://www.franzreizenstein.com/)
The Sinfonietta is wonderful too. And I was just expecting a 'fill up'! Haunting melodies,a bit like early Bliss in few places,but Bate always has his own voice. (I need to spend more time absorbing these). And this is No 1? Hope the other one's extant. I shall look at the Bate work list now.
Outstanding!
Reizenstein's Violin Concerto is available now....and his Cantata "Voices of Night" will be soon ;D
No Dutton package delivered yet :(
Very,very,very,very,VERY exciting release,to put it mildly!
On a more trivial level,I suppose,I do love that striking 'cover art' with that 'Orwellian' eye. A very arresting image,which prepares you very nicely,for the even more arresting musical content of the cd inside.
I really haven't been as excited about a 'neglected' composer cd in years. And,the Reizenstein,as well,to be honest. (And the only bit of Reizenstein I knew,up till now,were his 'Variations on a Lambeth walk'!)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! If I buy the Lyrita cd of Reizenstein I'm forced to buy a certain other composer,playing music 'wot he rote',whom I have to admit I can't,for the life of me, get quite so excited about! :o
Ah,for the original release!
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2493/kgrhqrg4e45k3dimboznt80.jpg)
While we're on a diversion (I doubt a seperate thread for the composer would get much attention), the following disc I enjoyed a lot:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O5o69rPLL._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00015T1OA/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1319208854&sr=1-3)
All three instruments appear to be played by the same fellow. It's sometimes a little stern, as solo string music is wont to be, but has that an appealing, dazzling neoclassical style. It's perhaps less friendly music than the music of Arnold Cooke, to make the obvious comparison, but still rather imaginative and impressive within its somewhat constrained idiom.
The main thing not making me explore further his how expensive the recordings are - so many are OOP and I am not going to pay the premium.
Giving the 4th a listen - it's fun how expectations can be upturned. My irrational reaction upon seeing the piece's number and the final moderato was to see whether any RVW 4th and 6th comparisons were apt (it was a blind listen, I'll take any flotage I can find, however spurious).
It turns out that the work was nothing like I had expected - I felt that it might be a bit grim, but it retains much of the joyful, slightly maniacal qualities of the 3rd, albeit in a less Sibelian/Waltonian inexorable forward movement. It's rare to hear such a joyously bubbling "moderato" movement as the one which concluded the piece, and it by no means felt "slow", or to be attempting an extra-musical statement. It was just rather beautiful to hear the orchestra alternate between intimate song-like sections, and shimmering outbursts. Only at the very ending of the final movement did I feel that the composer was relying a little on his compatriots, with mild shades of Holst and RVW.
As with the 3rd, I feel that there is a lot of content here, but its structure allows for a more thoughtful work overall. I'm not yet sure whether this lack of directness offers more depth or perhaps simply it's a less white-hot piece in its inspiration? I don't find Bate to be the most "deep" of composers (a less naturally-flowing style than some hurts this the most) so maybe surface is important as I admire in the 3rd. But either way the 4th is a wonderful symphony, and the sense of ambition and determination that I find especially appealing in Bate's music makes it a very fine work.
Strange! Slightly (!) off topic,I know & apologies for this,but I'm REALLY enjoying the new Dutton Holbrooke cd. I must admit,I do find the horribly,(horridly?), egotistical Holbrooke strangely intriguing! :o He certainly was a colourful character,he knew lots of interesting people,had a colourful life patronised by the wealthy Howard de Walden &,crucially,for me,lived in Wales (for a while) where he was inspired by some of it's culture,although not in the nationalistic sense,like Joseph Parry or Morfydd Owen,of course. He also could be quite an interesting composer,although when I buy a Holbrooke cd,I often find my initial enthusiasm gradually wearing off! :o The problem for me is not that his music is just uneven,but like that fellow in IRR Magazine,I find JH allot stronger on atmosphere and colour than substance. A typical Holbrooke score involves allot of colourful,atmospheric mood setting,dramatic climaxes and often gorgeous and exciting orchestration,but also an unsettling feeling of,'Yeah great,but where the b***** h*** is all this going?'
So,I was a bit suprised to find that this is probably THE most enjoyable Holbrooke cd I have encountered,to date. The ballet 'Aucassin and Nicolette' while not exactly the most original music in the world is delightfully scored,but the real winners come from about track 9 onwards,the 'Scene:Allegro' & Pas de deux'. These really ARE gorgeously orchestrated. Holbrooke REALLY could orchestrate when he got the muse! Finally,the Saxophone Concerto,an absolute winner,as they say & beautifully scored. An absolute delight. The sound of that Saxophone against some of Holbrookes most shimmering orchestration is utterly captivating. What a pity he didn't get to try his luck at some movie scoring.
My estimation of the,undoubtedly,intriguing Holbrooke has,unexpectedly, shot up! Need I add,Duttons production values are all up to their usual stunning standards. Oh,and the 'Richard Rodney Bennett' Dances are wonderful too!
Re. Holbrooke - take heart, he may not be quite on the level of Bantock, but he's a step above Wallace ;) I too find myself admiring the effort or idiom of a composer more than their actual music in one or two cases.
Off-topic composers mentioned on this the last page: Widor, Converse, Holbrooke (lots), Bennett, Benjamin, Corp, Hurd, Moeran, Ireland, Reizenstein (lots), Godfrey, Bowen (although you were careful not to invoke his name out loud), Holst, Vaughan Williams, Sibelius, Walton.
Poor Stanley, but typical GMG ;D
Still waiting for the new Dutton to arrive - with piano concertos by Bate and Reizenstein - I've been playing the Third and Fourth symphonies again. I find both very satisfying, highly impressive works. About the best newcomers I've heard in years. Sorry - I guess I told you so before. :D
Anyhow, I have good reasons to be intrigued by a side remark in Michael Barlow and Robert Barnett's substantial essay on the composer, STANLEY BATE - Forgotten International Composer, to be found at Musicweb: http://www.musicweb-international.com/bate/index.htm.
Toward the end it says: "Glanville-Hicks claimed he wrote a dozen or more symphonies". :o
Could it really be? ???
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 21, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
The cd is STILL on 'repeat all'! This is fantastic,I don't want to take it off! Okay,maybe the Bate is the most individual of the two,if I HAVE to choose,but they're both so good. In fact,I really would like to hear more Reizenstein now. Nit picking aside,his Piano Concerto really is a barnstormer in the grand manner & I think Dutton were very wise to put it first,it makes a tremendous opener.
As to the Bate,I know this is hyperbole ( I suppose) but I really do now believe that this is the best British piano concerto I have ever heard & I find it quite astonishing that it has languished unheard for so long. Of course,I rate Bax's 'Winter Legends' very highly,so maybe my judgement is impaired (!),but having said that,much as I love the Bax work & believe it deserves better than it gets,this is INFINITELY more subtle!
The Sinfonietta is wonderful too. And I was just expecting a 'fill up'! Haunting melodies,a bit like early Bliss in few places,but Bate always has his own voice. (I need to spend more time absorbing these). And this is No 1? Hope the other one's extant. I shall look at the Bate work list now. Outstanding!
My copy arrived yesterday, am playing it now and can hear very well what you mean. Terrific disc!
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 21, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
The cd is STILL on 'repeat all'! This is fantastic,I don't want to take it off! ... As to the Bate,I know this is hyperbole ( I suppose) but I really do now believe that this is the best British piano concerto I have ever heard & I find it quite astonishing that it has languished unheard for so long. ...
The Sinfonietta is wonderful too. And I was just expecting a 'fill up'! Haunting melodies,a bit like early Bliss in few places,but Bate always has his own voice. (I need to spend more time absorbing these). And this is No 1? Hope the other one's extant. I shall look at the Bate work list now. Outstanding!
Enjoying a similar happy experience these days and in the meantime I'm haunted by some of his melodies - particularly the themes of th concerto's slow movement and grandiose finale. People may regard Bate a `derivative' composer, but then, he's the best derivative composer I've heard in years.
By chance, I typed his name in the search engine of Youtube - to find, to my suprise, his own performances of the second and third piano concertos there! Here's Bate as a soloist in his own Piano Concerto No. 2 in C major, Op. 28 (completed May 1940) - with the BBC SO under Stanford Robinson, a radio broadcast from 1958. To hear the same `grandiose' themes from the composer himself is quite an experience, IMHO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljA7d_PC2p0
And here's Bate playing the US premiere of his Piano Concerto No. 3, Op. 61 (completed August 1952) with the Oklahoma City SO under Guy Fraser Harrison, again a recording from 1958: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJABhvxdg0E
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y%2B-d7bEOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
You do know that you can download both these performances of the Bates Piano Concertos Nos. 2 and 3 over at UC, don't you, Johan?
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 13, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
You do know that you can download both these performances of the Bates Piano Concertos Nos. 2 and 3 over at UC, don't you, Johan?
I didn't know at the moment of posting, but found it out in between (reading the complete thread a little after, testing my new Iphone 8)). The historic recording of the second concerto is fine and a moving experience, imho. My kids (6 and 5) were humming the lyrical theme of the slow movement, yesterday.
I also read that you respond very positively to Bate as well. :)
Absolutely marvellous (and I must admit to being VERY impressed by the Reizenstein,too!). Glad to see David CF Wright & 'Christo' share my enthusiasm for this music.
Also,must admit to being completely and utterly perplexed by some of the negative comments on a certain other forum! :o And,not wanting to appear 'catty',but some of the composers THEY rate?!!!!!! :o Andrew Clements of the Guardian (& certain other well known newspaper & magazine critics),eat you're collective heart/s out!!!!
Oh well ('cattiness' aside),each to his own! ;D
Miaow!
I have just got round to listening to Bate's Piano Concerto No 2 on Dutton - gosh, what a great score; I have been playing it continuously and love the eloquent slow movement and the epic tune in the finale. My admiration for Bate grows.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 31, 2012, 01:33:26 PM
I have just got round to listening to Bate's Piano Concerto No 2 on Dutton - gosh, what a great score; I have been playing it continuously and love the eloquent slow movement and the epic tune in the finale. My admiration for Bate grows.
Indeed :) It is such a pity that Dutton has not got more Bate for us in their next (February) batch of recordings :( Instead we are getting more Edward German, the Frederic Austin symphony(again!, Classico has already recorded it), Lionel Sainsbury's cello concerto, Christopher Wright's violin concerto, a piano concerto by Percy Sherwood and the John Foulds cello concerto.
(Don't take this as absolute gospel-Dutton has made no official announcement and this comes as unofficial info' ;D)
Now these pieces are, no doubt, pleasant enough but they are what I would call 'soft romantic' British music, much of it very early 20th century either by date or idiom or both. If I had to nominate an unrecorded British violin concerto and cello concerto then the Wright and the Sainsbury would be
nowhere near the top of my list.I don't grudge lovers of this type of British music getting what they want but this particular Dutton batch disappoints me. There is nothing of a more modern hue to provide a proper mix.
Agree! I used to quite like the old 'complete' emi recording of 'Merrie England' when I was a youngster (good old fashioned singing) & the songs are great in the bath :o............. but he's not exactly the kind of composer that gets me going! I mean,Bate,Reizenstein,even Holbrooke (I actually DID quite enjoy their last Holbrooke cd!),but Edward German & Frederic Austin?!!!
Yawn!
The Bate & Reizenstein cd was stuck on repeat for a couple of days!
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 31, 2012, 04:36:56 PM
Indeed :) It is such a pity that Dutton has not got more Bate for us in their next (February) batch of recordings :( Instead we are getting more Edward German, the Frederic Austin symphony(again!, Classico has already recorded it), Lionel Sainsbury's cello concerto, Christopher Wright's violin concerto, a piano concerto by Percy Sherwood and the John Foulds cello concerto.
(Don't take this as absolute gospel-Dutton has made no official announcement and this comes as unofficial info' ;D)
Now these pieces are, no doubt, pleasant enough but they are what I would call 'soft romantic' British music, much of it very early 20th century either by date or idiom or both. If I had to nominate an unrecorded British violin concerto and cello concerto then the Wright and the Sainsbury would be nowhere near the top of my list.
I don't grudge lovers of this type of British music getting what they want but this particular Dutton batch disappoints me. There is nothing of a more modern hue to provide a proper mix.
I agree Colin although I like Foulds very much. I expect you were disappointed at the absence of any new York Bowen recordings too ;D ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 31, 2012, 05:13:45 PM
I mean,Bate,Reizenstein,even Holbrooke (I actually DID quite enjoy their last Holbrooke cd!),but Edward German & Frederic Austin?!!!
Yawn!
Gonna steal Mad's hammar and give you a good whack I am!! :) Love Edward German - I've bought the Duttons discs (which are outstanding), Marco Polo, Naxos, etc. Nothing boring there at all. Have only just discovered Foulds, who I suspect I will enjoy a lot. Now back to our Bates programming!
I did give a nod to 'Merrie England',to be fair to me! ;D In my opinion,possibly the best 'home grown' operetta after G & S (and the wonderful & sadly neglected 'The Arcadians').
Actually,I was merely sharing my disappointment,with Dundonnell,that Dutton's choice of repertoire seems a little on the safe side,this time around. After,the knockout Bate/Reizenstein disc,I think I was hoping for something equally ear popping! Nothing wrong with Edward German at all,or Foulds,but quite allot of their output has been recorded recently & there are so many gaps that could be filled ie some Daniel Jones,David Wynne,Fricker,or what about some Gaze Cooper? And,I do find Holbrooke strangely intriguing,even if what I hear tends to be a bit of a curates egg,at best!
Indeed :)
All I was lamenting was the lack of balance. I have no issue with recording Edward German and certainly not with recording the Foulds Cello Concerto, which was a major gap in the recorded repertoire of British cello concertos. But Foulds HAS been treated very generously by Dutton in the last year or so and, if you add on the recordings by Lyrita and Warner, this now means that virtually every piece of extant Foulds orchestral music will be on disc.
I have absolutely no problem with that either or with the recordings that have been made in the last two or three years of Joseph Holbrooke or Cyril Scott or York Bowen (by Dutton and Chandos) or, for that matter obviously, the more 'modern'(ie early 20th century ;D) William Alwyn or Stanley Bate or Richard Arnell.
I happen to remain relatively unconvinced that Holbrooke was a particularly wonderful composer(outside of his atmospheric tone poems) and I am not really much in sympathy-as you know ;D-with Bowen or Scott but I do love the music of Alwyn and Arnell, and the Stanley Bate I have heard(and there is more Bate which needs to be heard!!) BUT these composers, by and large, share the same qualities. In a nutshell these revolve around a degree of "easy listening".
I don't mean by that phrase that the music is not sometimes complex or does not require attention from the listener but there is a 'romanticism' about the music which, by and large, means that there is little that is abrasive, tougher, call it what you will. Late Arnell may be an exception but, apart from the 6th and 7th symphonies, we haven't heard much.
Yes, Dutton has recorded some more modern British music: David Matthews and Paul Patterson spring to mind, but what about those composers born before Bate and Arnell-composers like Cooke or Wordsworth-or their contemporaries Daniel Jones, Humphrey Searle, or the younger Fricker and Hamilton ???
These are all to varying degrees 'grittier' composers and their orchestral music has been ignored by Dutton.
Wonderful company though Dutton undoubtedly is and I have bought many Dutton releases and will continue to do so I am increasingly conscious that it seems to be concentrating on 'safe options' :(
I am all for filling the gaps and widening the offering. On this, we can totally agree! :)
I tend to agree with everything you say,Dundonnell. There is a tendency by record labels,like Dutton,to record more immeadiately tuneful,or romantic repertoire. I would definately,like to see more recordings of the kind of composers you mention. It's the one big downside of this current renaissance of interest in neglected composers & rather (VERY!) annoying!!!! :( >:( >:( >:(
Tend to agree with you about Holbrooke,too! When,I say he intrigues me,I mean that he's not all bad. There are flashes of inspiration there & some beautiful,even exciting orchestration,which will make me sit up & think,hey,that was good! But then there are longeurs and a strange feeling of shapelessness to even his best work. It seems to me,that Holbrooke had a vivid,if inconsistent imagination, a flair for colourful orchestration & gothic gloom,but very little aptitude when it came to basic structure or form. A fatal flaw! Yet,there are enough good bits & gothicky gloom to make me want to try more,even though I'll most probably end up being disappointed! ;D
Actually,in my opinion,Holbrooke was far more interesting as a person,than a composer.Although,not to be with,of course!!! He lived in Wales,had allot of interesting colourful friends & a well written biography would probably be a far more worthwhile project than an expensive recording of Apollo and the Seaman! ;D Although,again,I wouldn't mind hearing that. It has been referred to as Mahlerian somewhere,but I'm a little dubious,to say the least! ;D And then of course,there was that infamous slideshow!!!! Oh dear,that ego!!!! How they laughed!
As to Scott. I do like some of his music.....BUT,it has to be said that,there's only so much shadowy,occult,incense laden chromaticism,one can take!!! Variety was not Scott's forte,I fear! His First Piano Concerto & third symphony are dazzling works in their own way & I rather like his shadowy,Fourth,BUT,there is a feeling of 'sameness' to allot of his output & pheweee......it really CAN be a bit much!!!! Talented as he undoubtedly was,I get the feeling that Cyril Scott is one composer who really DID need to lighten up! (In hindsight,I really DO think Chandos were wise to stop when they did!)
On a more positive note,his chamber & instrumental music is,to my ears,allot better. I actually quite enjoyed the recent Chandos & Naxos cds of this side of his output!
As to Bowen!!!!! :o And Gaze Cooper......well,at least they haven't done him yet (although,Cameo have released a bit,apparently!).
I've got the Holbrooke 'Aucassin & Nicolette cd on now,which strikes me as the most consistent Holbrooke cd I've heard,so far. For once,his ideas seem to be good most of the way through,athough,curiously the ballet really seems to take off about midway. There is,to my ears,some gorgeous orchestration here & some sprightly tunes. In fact,I am amazed that a miserable sod like Holbrooke could write music like this! Maybe,he was better at light music? Presumably,the fact that it is made up out of short movements freed Holbrooke's imagination from the fetters of form. No worries about structure here,for Mr Ego!
Or maybe,there is some really good Holbrooke out there,after all? I really DO like this disc! :) IF only the other Holbrooke cd's I've heard were as consistent as this! :(
I notice that Stanley Bate's Piano Sonata No 2 op 59 (1949) performed by John Kersey,is on Youtube!
Wierd! I've got as far as Holbrooke's Saxophone Concerto & I'm STILL enjoying this Holbrooke cd!!! Must email Dutton in case it's faulty!!!! ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 13, 2011, 05:18:58 PM
To my mind these cds have been a revelation.
That's still my position too, especially after the release of the Second Piano Concerto proved that we have every reason to expect much of his other work. BTW, I find the historic recording of Bate playing the solo part himself quite moving (there's a link in this thread and it's also found on Youtube). Vandermolen is absolutely right in singling out the lyricism of the second movement (interrupted by a bit of 'Gershwin') and the epic theme of the finale, returning twice, the second time in a longer version that makes it unforgettable and -again- very moving.
So far, I've been enjoying Bate even more than Arnell. For me he's the most important 'find' in a couple of years. Let's hope Dutton will continue the series. As I would also look forward to a complete Ruth Gipps and Arnold Cooke cycle, to mention two more names.
Marvellous. You listen & you think,'Why hasn't this been recorded before?' It's that good! I honestly think it's the best British Piano Concerto I've ever heard. Allot of British Piano concerto's,frankly,bore me. Bax's Winter Legends is an exception,except that it isn't a Piano Concerto & it's VERY OTT in places. Other likes include,Bax's Symphonic Variations,but again it's not a Piano Concerto really & maybe it meanders a bit too much to be taken seriously by anyone except a few enthusiasts,like me. And then there's Fould's remarkable 'Dynamic Triptych? But the Bate really IS something & I can't really see any musical reason why it should have been neglected,except Bate's bad luck,health,early death & fashion!
The recordings of Stanley Bate playing are fantastic. They are definately of more than curiosity value. A commercial cd release would be a must buy & I hope it will eventually happen. Maybe Dutton will oblige?
Love the Reizenstein,too.
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 11:43:29 AM
Marvellous. You listen & you think,'Why hasn't this been recorded before?' It's that good! I honestly think it's the best British Piano Concerto I've ever heard. Allot of British Piano concerto's,frankly,bore me. Bax's Winter Legends is an exception,except that it isn't a Piano Concerto & it's VERY OTT in places. Other likes include,Bax's Symphonic Variations,but again it's not a Piano Concerto really & maybe it meanders a bit too much to be taken seriously by anyone except a few enthusiasts,like me. And then there's Fould's remarkable 'Dynamic Triptych? But the Bate really IS something & I can't really see any musical reason why it should have been neglected,except Bate's bad luck,health,early death & fashion!
The recordings of Stanley Bate playing are fantastic. They are definately of more than curiosity value. A commercial cd release would be a must buy & I hope it will eventually happen. Maybe Dutton will oblige?
Love the Reizenstein,too.
I agree with you re Bax's Symphonic Variations and Foulds's very dynamic 'Dynamic Triptych' and would add Cyril Scott's 1st Piano Concerto, the VW, especially in the two piano version (Vronsky, Babin and Boult is my favourite) and both by Bliss and Rawsthorne's No 2. The Bate is wonderful though and I'm playing it again now. Also Ireland's 'Legend' which I prefer to the Piano Concerto + Bridge's 'Phantasm', Walton's 'Sinfonia Concertante', Rubbra's PC (wonderful opening) and Arnold's and Gordon Jacob's for Two Pianos.
One of the most recorded,the Britten Piano Concerto,always strikes me as a bit too derivative & nowhere near as interesting as any of the concerto's you list,Vandermolen. And I write that as one who enjoys allot of Britten;but for some curious reason,only in his own recordings,albeit with a few exceptions.
After finishing the recent Holbrooke (Aucassin & Nicolette) cd from Dutton,which I really DO ACTUALLY enjoy,I tried another Holbrooke cd from my Holbrooke pile. Unfortunately,despite some felicitious touches,the inconsistencies of Holbrooke's muse,once more,raised their problematic heads & off it went! :(
NB: I DO like his Violin Sonata No3 in f 'Orientale' op 83 (1926),also on the Dutton label;coupled with Sonata's by Walford Davies,Rootham & a Sonatina by Benjamin. A nice disc of suprisingly enjoyable music. Holbrooke's Sonata is short & sweet,unlike some of his music. Though,I can't see anything Oriental about it!
Back to Bate!
Frickers third symphony is another stunner. It is viscerally very exciting,and despite it's stern demeanour,suprisingly approachable,even lyrical. The pounding theme,or motif really grabs hold of you & once you've heard it you don't forget it. No meandering here,just relentless propulsion. And unlike some symphonies of this sinewy,steel like ilk,it's very easy to get to know. The first time I heard it,I enjoyed it. No second or third assessments,I just thought,'Wow! What's this?!!!' It was the kind of music you hear on the radio & everything has to stop until you've listened all the way to the end. Luckily,I was taping allot of 'off air' stuff at the time,so the C90 cassette was ready to hand! A fantastic symphony! If I had a record label I'd be literally jumping through hoops to record it. It really DOES stand out,even if you don't usually like this kind of composer!
Quote from: vandermolen on February 01, 2012, 12:45:32 PM
Gordon Jacob's for Two Pianos.
Where has this been recorded? I have seen the Arnold a few times on disk, but never Gordon Jacob's.
Quote from: lescamil on February 02, 2012, 05:19:01 AM
Where has this been recorded? I have seen the Arnold a few times on disk, but never Gordon Jacob's.
Jeffrey is, I fancy, referring to the Concerto for three hands on one piano, composed for Cyril Smith and Phyllis Sellick in 1969 and first performed in 1970.This work can be performed on two pianos but the recording features one piano. Regrettably, the LP recording has never been transferred to cd afik.
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 02, 2012, 08:21:26 AM
Jeffrey is, I fancy, referring to the Concerto for three hands on one piano, composed for Cyril Smith and Phyllis Sellick in 1969 and first performed in 1970.This work can be performed on two pianos but the recording features one piano. Regrettably, the LP recording has never been transferred to cd afik.
Yes, I realize that he was referring to the Concerto for three hands. I checked the Gordon Jacob website, and it mentioned that, if I recall correctly, that it was only available though BMIC, but not that it was ever released on LP. I guess I can scour the internet for a copy, possibly.
Quote from: lescamil on February 02, 2012, 05:19:01 AM
Where has this been recorded? I have seen the Arnold a few times on disk, but never Gordon Jacob's.
Colin is right - yes, sorry I meant the version for three hands. I have been pestering my contact at EMI to issue it on CD but no luck. I know it from the LP - it was coupled with works by Arnold and Bliss, both of which made it to CD but the Jacob was left out in the cold :(.
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 01:21:55 PM
One of the most recorded,the Britten Piano Concerto,always strikes me as a bit too derivative & nowhere near as interesting as any of the concerto's you list,Vandermolen. And I write that as one who enjoys allot of Britten;but for some curious reason,only in his own recordings,albeit with a few exceptions.
After finishing the recent Holbrooke (Aucassin & Nicolette) cd from Dutton,which I really DO ACTUALLY enjoy,I tried another Holbrooke cd from my Holbrooke pile. Unfortunately,despite some felicitious touches,the inconsistencies of Holbrooke's muse,once more,raised their problematic heads & off it went! :(
NB: I DO like his Violin Sonata No3 in f 'Orientale' op 83 (1926),also on the Dutton label;coupled with Sonata's by Walford Davies,Rootham & a Sonatina by Benjamin. A nice disc of suprisingly enjoyable music. Holbrooke's Sonata is short & sweet,unlike some of his music. Though,I can't see anything Oriental about it!
Back to Bate!
Thank you. I don't have much time for Britten I'm afraid - apart from the Sinfonia da Requiem, Sea Interludes and War Requiem - but opera remains something of a blind spot for me. Must look out for Fricker Symphony No 3 - the ending of his Symphony No 2 is very exciting. Yes, back to Bate!
Nice slogan. Back to Bate. 8)
Stanley not Norman (Bate..s!) of course! :o
I don't think Stanley had a motel,anyway!
But if he did,I might just have booked in! ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 04, 2012, 06:30:57 AM
Stanley not Norman (Bate..s!) of course! :o
I don't think Stanley had a motel,anyway!
But if he did,I might just have booked in! ;D
Sadly....I rather think that Stanley Bate, like Malcolm Arnold, would have been the last people one would have wished to find running any sort of establishment of that sort :o
The film was an overrated bore,anyway! (No offence intended to AH admirers!!! I just think Hitchcock's earlier movies were better!)
More seriously,it's sad that so many talented composers find it so difficult to make money out of their music. Malcolm Arnold of course did his bit with film scores & very good he was too!
Havergal Brian seems to have done a bit of everything (back to HB thread,maybe,for this one!)
I have raged in the pages of this forum on previous occasions about the declining standard of the reviews published in that formerly august publication "The Gramophone" but have still never actually got to the stage of making a decision to cancel my subscription- a subscription which I have maintained for 48 years.
The new(April) edition carries a review of the Bate/Reizenstein piano concertos release from Dutton. The review is written by Peter Dickinson, himself a distinguished composer, onetime Professor of Music at Keele University and elsewhere, and author of the standard text on the music of Sir Lennox Berkeley.
Dickinson devotes half of his review to telling his readers about the careers of the two composers, essentially summarising the content of the cd booklet notes. (One might have thought that in this day and age readers could be expected to find these sorts of details as readily on the internet and that what they really need is to be told about the music ???)
As to the music, this is what Dickinson writes:
"Stanley Bate has already had a good innings(with the previous releases from Dutton of his music, presumably)...........The Reizenstein is relentlessly energentic in the outer movements but, as a Hindemith pupil, he knew about continuity so the pace and the virtuosity never let up, except in a pleasantly cool if unmemorable slow movement. Bate's concerto is much less disciplined. His almost comic opening presages debts to Prokofiev; there's a meandering slow movement and a fizzing finale with stock-in-trade figurations. Agreeable mainstream stuff...."
and that's it. There is a further sentence about the performance which is called "truly outstanding".
This review has, finally, made up my mind for me :( If this is what passes for a serious review in Britain's oldest music magazine then that is a utter disgrace and a quite appalling insult to the memory of the generations of distinguished and erudite writers on music whose reviews graced the pages of the magazine throughout its 90 year history.
It's awful! My only complaint about this months IRR was the tiny bit of grease that came from my cheese & onion sandwich & deposited itself at the top of one of the back pages. The ones with the opera reviews. Still,that was my fault! :(
Also,niggling worries that the feature on Janaceks Glagolitic Mass,interesting as it is,might one day morph into Gramophone style features,spreading slowly through the ensuing pages like Japanese knotweed.
I just want well written,well researched reviews. A few pages of articles,letters or reissue round ups at the beginning are allright,but no more than that! As to 'one minute interviews','If you like that you might like this' lists...'and 'My musical week' by Michael Portillo,Robert Mugabe or the Governor of the Bank of England? (Spot the odd one out!) Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! :o
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 03:43:27 AM
Agreeable mainstream stuff...."
I am curious as to his definition of mainstream, given how unpopular this style is nowadays.
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 03:43:27 AM
I have raged in the pages of this forum on previous occasions about the declining standard of the reviews published in that formerly august publication "The Gramophone" but have still never actually got to the stage of making a decision to cancel my subscription- a subscription which I have maintained for 48 years.
The new(April) edition carries a review of the Bate/Reizenstein piano concertos release from Dutton. The review is written by Peter Dickinson, himself a distinguished composer, onetime Professor of Music at Keele University and elsewhere, and author of the standard text on the music of Sir Lennox Berkeley.
Dickinson devotes half of his review to telling his readers about the careers of the two composers, essentially summarising the content of the cd booklet notes. (One might have thought that in this day and age readers could be expected to find these sorts of details as readily on the internet and that what they really need is to be told about the music ???)
As to the music, this is what Dickinson writes:
"Stanley Bate has already had a good innings(with the previous releases from Dutton of his music, presumably)...........The Reizenstein is relentlessly energentic in the outer movements but, as a Hindemith pupil, he knew about continuity so the pace and the virtuosity never let up, except in a pleasantly cool if unmemorable slow movement. Bate's concerto is much less disciplined. His almost comic opening presages debts to Prokofiev; there's a meandering slow movement and a fizzing finale with stock-in-trade figurations. Agreeable mainstream stuff...."
and that's it. There is a further sentence about the performance which is called "truly outstanding".
This review has, finally, made up my mind for me :( If this is what passes for a serious review in Britain's oldest music magazine then that is a utter disgrace and a quite appalling insult to the memory of the generations of distinguished and erudite writers on music whose reviews graced the pages of the magazine throughout its 90 year history.
It was a similar stupid and uninformative panning of this disc (the quote is from newolde.com) that made me cancel my subscription a couple of years ago:
"Pietro Antonio Cesti (1623-1669). Le Disgrazie d'Amore (Vienna 1667). Hyperion CDA 67771/2 (2 CDs, January 2010). Details / Sleeve notes & libretto (pdf). Carlo Ipata, Auser Musici. Allegria: Cristiana Arcari, soprano; Venere: Maria Grazia Schiavo, soprano; Amicizia: Elena Cecchi Fedi, soprano; Amore: Paolo Lopez, sopranist; Adulazione: Gabriella Martellacci, contralto; Avarizia: Martín Oro, countertenor; Cortigiano: Francisco Ghelardini, countertenor: Inganno: Carlos Natale, tenor; Amante: Anicio Zorzi Guistiniani, tenor; Vulcano: Furio Zanasi, baritone; Bronte: Antonio Abete, bass; Sterope: Enea Sorini, bass; Piragmo: Luigi De Donato, bass. "[T]his set is not only an artistic triumph in its own right, but also one of the most important additions to the catalogue we're likely to see this year." Brian Robins, EMR 134:25 (February 2010). I agree. Indeed, this is one of the best recordings to date of a 17th Century Italian opera."
I have never missed the magazine or regretted the decision.
In the end,it wasn't even good enough to stack next to the toilet! :(
He became so depressed over his lack of recognition by the public, that he made plans to kill himself by a drug overdose. :(
Quote from: Scion7 on September 02, 2015, 01:44:33 AM
He became so depressed over his lack of recognition by the public, that he made plans to kill himself by a drug overdose. :(
It's a challenge, no denying it.
I imagine there were other pressures - some sources say he was homosexual, but perhaps "bi" was a better term - he did marry twice, when he didn't have to . . . looking online at the news stories, his suicide did not make much of a ripple at the time.
Nice to see Bate back. His mother blamed lack of sleep but maybe she couldn't accept the alternative. Others have mentioned alcoholism.
He wrote a number of chamber pieces - they apparently have not been recorded, for the most part:
Sonata, Op.11, for flute & piano, 1937; Str Qt No.2, Op.41, 1942;
5 Pieces, Op.23, string quartet, c1937;
Sonatina, Op.12, for recorder & piano, 1938;
Sonata No.1, Op.47, for violin & piano, 1946;
Sonata No.2, for violin & piano, 1950 Sonata, Op.52, for oboe & piano, 1946;
Fantasy, Op.56, for cello & piano, 1946–7; Pastorale, Op.57, for viola & piano, c1947;
Recitative, Op.52a, for cello & piano, 1946–7;
(incomplete list)
Quote from: karlhenning on September 02, 2015, 02:32:23 AM
It's a challenge, no denying it.
Karl, whatever happens over your music, don't go down the path of Master Bate.
.
.
.
.
.
::)
Quote from: Scion7 on September 04, 2015, 12:31:38 AM
Karl, whatever happens over your music, don't go down the path of Master Bate.
.
.
.
.
.
::)
+1
Quote from: vandermolen on September 02, 2015, 09:08:46 AM
Nice to see Bate back. His mother blamed lack of sleep but maybe she couldn't accept the alternative. Others have mentioned alcoholism.
Alcohol and lack of sleep? I know the feeling!! :( ;D
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 07, 2015, 12:36:16 AM
Alcohol and lack of sleep? I know the feeling!! :( ;D
Me too. ???
C'mon, dundonnel- it should be obvious that this Thread is the 'Bate's Motel',... hmm?
+1 "Bates Motel" - 8)
Anyone else feel that his Viola Concerto is one fine piece of work?
Quote from: Scion7 on August 27, 2016, 12:21:58 AMAnyone else feel that his Viola Concerto is one fine piece of work?
It is. Every piece of him recorded over the past few years is sublime and I personally consider him the greatest 'dicovery' of the past five years. The latest addition is the 1953
Cello Concerto that I played this Summer, the only Bate to be found on Spotify. I'd say its a little bit less inspired than his best work so far (both symphonies and concertos released earlier), but perhaps there are more educated opinions on it?
(http://www.classicalsource.com/images/upload/13295_1.jpg)
To date, I've never run across a single vinyl LP with any of his stuff on it - I think he was basically unrecorded until the CD recent issues. And still there is no chamber music by him available.
There are a few piano pieces played by Jeffrey Wagner on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q09OtXdv_K0
Apart from that, there are three or four more and less historical broadcast recordings, but only the one of the Piano Concerto No. 3 is an addition to the catalogue (there is also one of Bate playing the second concerto, and there are two earlier performances of the Third Symphony, both less impressive as the one by Yates on Dutton; I think most are also found on Youtube.)
Quote from: Scion7 on August 27, 2016, 12:21:58 AM
Anyone else feel that his Viola Concerto is one fine piece of work?
Yes, it was the first of the Dutton releases to alert me of his importance. It clearly shows the influence of his teacher Vaughan Williams (more than the symphonies I think) but is an eloquent, poetic and moving work in its own right. Your post makes me want to play it again.
Yesterday,I enjoyed listening to a cd-r I made of Bainton conducting his Second symphony. Not exactly hi-fi sound,as one might expect;but if you like this symphony definitely a must hear! A very enjoyable performance,with plenty of atmosphere. I think I actually,marginally,prefer it to the Chandos recording. As I did the Boult CBSO performance of Stanley Bate's third. Again,the sound was not exactly superb,but I felt the performance had more fire and conviction to it than the Dutton recording. Not entirely convinced by the Yates reading,this one really had me in it's grip. They also make great companions. It would be nice if someone could reissue these recordings on cd. I remember reading the review of the Dutton recording of the Bate in IRR (International Record Review) magazine where the reviewer expressed some reservations about the finale. I think he felt that it seemed to take a while to get going;as if the composer had had some problems there (I can't remember his exact words). The old Finale problem in other words. I think he felt it was like one of those old plane propellors that take a while to get going;but once they do it's brrrrrrm all the way!! ;D Boult (at least to my ears) ,being the old trooper he was,makes a more convincing stab at the final movement,steering it with an aplomb that seems to elude Yates. The constricted sound quality also,curiously,adds an edgy quality,a feeling of duress,which really makes this performance for me. Excellent! :)
https://www.youtube.com/v/mrOnGinlWuI
Of course,I am naturally biased towards any ancient sounding,old recording! ::)
Incidentally.this is the first time I ever embedded a video!!
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 22, 2017, 02:49:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/mrOnGinlWuI
Wow, that's a very powerful performance! Thanks for posting.
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 22, 2017, 02:49:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/mrOnGinlWuI
What a TERRIFIC performance! Why is it not on CD? Thanks very much cilgwyn for posting it. It has much greater urgency than the performance recorded on Dutton but the two versions are complementary in many ways.
Actually,I really should emphasise that the Stanley Bate video is from the 'James Stuart' Channel on Youtube and I would urge members to view it there! There are allot of other 'Videos' of less well known composers there. I know that it has been brought up at the Art Music Forum. I am providing a link below,or you can just log onto Youtube!
The 'James Stuart' Channel on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFPCgr45pH_pzslan4EriQ/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFPCgr45pH_pzslan4EriQ/videos)
Don't want him after me!! ??? ;D
Yes,I think you're right,vandermolen. This one would be well worth transferring to cd. It has an urgency to me. At the very least it convinced nit-picking ingrates like me. The Dutton recording is obviously an excellent one,and you need a modern recording. Strangely,I think the harsh sound actually adds a little more to the sense of urgency. An additional edge to the proceedings,so I don't think it's a bad thing,in a way. I wonder what they would couple it with,though?
Quote from: Christo on November 13, 2011, 11:06:31 AM
Enjoying a similar happy experience these days and in the meantime I'm haunted by some of his melodies - particularly the themes of th concerto's slow movement and grandiose finale. People may regard Bate a `derivative' composer, but then, he's the best derivative composer I've heard in years.
By chance, I typed his name in the search engine of Youtube - to find, to my suprise, his own performances of the second and third piano concertos there! Here's Bate as a soloist in his own Piano Concerto No. 2 in C major, Op. 28 (completed May 1940) - with the BBC SO under Stanford Robinson, a radio broadcast from 1958. To hear the same `grandiose' themes from the composer himself is quite an experience, IMHO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljA7d_PC2p0
And here's Bate playing the US premiere of his Piano Concerto No. 3, Op. 61 (completed August 1952) with the Oklahoma City SO under Guy Fraser Harrison, again a recording from 1958: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJABhvxdg0E
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y%2B-d7bEOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I agree with this. A lovely Piano concerto. Some of it even reminds me of Malcolm Arnold. I like the more grandiose Reizenstein too;which makes a greater opener. And I musn't leave out the Bate Sinfonietta No 1. I was rather hoping Dutton would give us his Piano concerto No 3 (if the parts are still extant?). Alas! They seem to have lost interest. :( Great cover art,too! Very eye catching (geddit?! :D)
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 08, 2018, 03:25:04 AM
I agree with this. A lovely Piano concerto. Some of it even reminds me of Malcolm Arnold. I like the more grandiose Reizenstein too;which makes a greater opener. And I musn't leave out the Bate Sinfonietta No 1. I was rather hoping Dutton would give us his Piano concerto No 3 (if the parts are still extant?). Alas! They seem to have lost interest. :( Great cover art,too! Very eye catching (geddit?! :D)
Yes, a clever play on words for those quick enough to spot it.
8)
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 08, 2018, 03:25:04 AM
I agree with this. A lovely Piano concerto. Some of it even reminds me of Malcolm Arnold. I like the more grandiose Reizenstein too;which makes a greater opener. And I musn't leave out the Bate Sinfonietta No 1. I was rather hoping Dutton would give us his Piano concerto No 3 (if the parts are still extant?). Alas! They seem to have lost interest. :( Great cover art,too! Very eye catching (geddit?! :D)
After posting this I had another listen to this cd. I enjoyed the Bate Piano concerto. I think it's the best of the three Dutton Bate' cd's. I preferred it to the symphonies. Bate seems a bit of a musical magpie here,but he assimilates it into something,delightfully,his own;so I don't have a problem with that. On the basis of the selection of music on this cd,I can't help feeling Bate was a better when he was being less serious!! I liked the Sinfonietta No 1 and the Russian influences just added to the fun. The performances and recording quality are superb. I must admit I didn't play the Reizenstein this time. Another time,perhaps?! I have to say here that,I do wish that Dutton had made these
all Bate cd's! Oh,well?!! (I did make a cd-r of symphonies 3 & 4). This isn't,and won't be among my favourite Piano concertos,by a British composer,but it's a bit different to some others I've heard. A pity that Dutton seem to have lost interest!
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 10, 2018, 04:16:30 AM
After posting this I had another listen to this cd. I enjoyed the Bate Piano concerto. I think it's the best of the three Dutton Bate' cd's. I preferred it to the symphonies. Bate seems a bit of a musical magpie here,but he assimilates it into something,delightfully,his own;so I don't have a problem with that. On the basis of the selection of music on this cd,I can't help feeling Bate was a better when he was being less serious!! I liked the Sinfonietta No 1 and the Russian influences just added to the fun. The performances and recording quality are superb. I must admit I didn't play the Reizenstein this time. Another time,perhaps?! I have to say here that,I do wish that Dutton had made these all Bate cd's! Oh,well?!! (I did make a cd-r of symphonies 3 & 4). This isn't,and won't be among my favourite Piano concertos,by a British composer,but it's a bit different to some others I've heard. A pity that Dutton seem to have lost interest!
I find the slow movement one of the most moving I know - and that alone deserves it a place among the 'great'.
Yes,the slow movement is a peach! :) The trouble is,if I bang on about something I like too much I can bet my bottom penny that someone will pop up and say that they don't think it's much cop (in no uncertain terms!). I'm just glad that someone else likes this piano concerto,Christo! It has a different quality to allot of other British works for piano and orchestra. It makes me think of some of those lighter soviet concertos like those of Kabalevsky,for example;yet quintessentially english. Bax's two big works for piano and orchestra have a special closeness to my heart,because I grew up listening to them. Ireland's Piano Concerto because of my interest in Celtic (particularly Welsh) folklore and Arthur Machen;but the Bate is a wonderful piano concerto. I like the Sinfonietta No 1,too;and it would be nice to hear No2,if it's still extant (and some other scores)?
I have to say I much prefer Boult's performance of the third symphony,to the Dutton recording. It has an intensity and atmosphere to it,which grabs me so much more than the new recording,despite the rough sound. I wish some recording label would transfer it to cd. I think it would be well worth the trouble!
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 10, 2018, 04:58:36 AM
Yes,the slow movement is a peach! :) The trouble is,if I bang on about something I like too much I can bet my bottom penny that someone will pop up and say that they don't think it's much cop (in no uncertain terms!). I'm just glad that someone else likes this piano concerto,Christo! It has a different quality to allot of other British works for piano and orchestra. It makes me think of some of those lighter soviet concertos like those of Kabalevsky,for example;yet quintessentially english. Bax's two big works for piano and orchestra have a special closeness to my heart,because I grew up listening to them. Ireland's Piano Concerto because of my interest in Celtic (particularly Welsh) folklore and Arthur Machen;but the Bate is a wonderful piano concerto. I like the Sinfonietta No 1,too;and it would be nice to hear No2,if it's still extant (and some other scores)?
I have to say I much prefer Boult's performance of the third symphony,to the Dutton recording. It has an intensity and atmosphere to it,which grabs me so much more than the new recording,despite the rough sound. I wish some recording label would transfer it to cd. I think it would be well worth the trouble!
I like everything I have heard from Bate, especially the Viola Concerto, the Piano Concerto and symphonies 3 and 4. Yes, it would be great if Boult's performance of Symphony 3 was released on CD.
I've been listening to pieces by Bate that are on YouTube. I find his music very odd, it seems to be stitched together from bits of others composers: Walton, Bax, VW, Hindemidt &c. There was even a Brucknerian passage in the 4th Symphony!
I must say I'm highly impressed by my recent discovery of Stanley Bate. The 3rd and 4th symphonies are magnificent, especially the 4th. I assume that the 4th was his last symphony. Has the 2nd ever been recorded? Apparently the 1st was destroyed by the composer.
NB I've been browsing this forum for a while before registering and it's been extremely helpful reading through the old threads, sometimes more than once! Whilst I love the usual suspects, Mahler, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Nielsen, Dvorak, etc, I have a particular interest in 20th century British composers which was ignited by stumbling across the EMI copy of Malcolm Arnold's 1st symphony in a charity shop.
Quote from: DavidUK on April 20, 2022, 09:24:07 AM
I must say I'm highly impressed by my recent discovery of Stanley Bate. The 3rd and 4th symphonies are magnificent, especially the 4th. I assume that the 4th was his last symphony. Has the 2nd ever been recorded? Apparently the 1st was destroyed by the composer.
NB I've been browsing this forum for a while before registering and it's been extremely helpful reading through the old threads, sometimes more than once! Whilst I love the usual suspects, Mahler, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Nielsen, Dvorak, etc, I have a particular interest in 20th century British composers which was ignited by stumbling across the EMI copy of Malcolm Arnold's 1st symphony in a charity shop.
You might enjoy Richard Arnell's 3rd and 5th symphonies as well. No.3 is a wartime epic and I find No.5 to be very endearing.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:04:04 AM
You might enjoy Richard Arnell's 3rd and 5th symphonies as well. No.3 is a wartime epic and I find No.5 to be very endearing.
Many thanks. Yes a similar genre. I have 4 5 and 7 and 3 arrived today. I think the Arnell 7 is superb.
Quote from: DavidUK on April 20, 2022, 11:16:19 AM
Many thanks. Yes a similar genre. I have 4 5 and 7 and 3 arrived today. I think the Arnell 7 is superb.
Oh, I'm sure that you'll enjoy No.3 - Arnell's mother was killed in the Blitz on London and I'm sure that this tragic experience impacted on the 3rd Symphony.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:37:11 AM
Oh, I'm sure that you'll enjoy No.3 - Arnell's mother was killed in the Blitz on London and I'm sure that this tragic experience impacted on the 3rd Symphony.
I listened to it on YouTube before ordering but will let you know on the Arnell thread once I've assimilated the symphony properly.
Quote from: DavidUK on April 20, 2022, 11:40:20 AM
I listened to it on YouTube before ordering but will let you know on the Arnell thread once I've assimilated the symphony properly.
Excellent!
Quote from: DavidUK on April 20, 2022, 11:40:20 AM
I listened to it on YouTube before ordering but will let you know on the Arnell thread once I've assimilated the symphony properly.
Arnell is a fine composer. Enjoy!!
Revisiting Bate's music, I'm increasingly impressed with his command of the orchestra and melodic fluency: no wonder that Boult and Barbirolli were enthusiastic. Dutton have done him proud with
Sinfonietta No.1, Op.22 (1938) - CDLX 7282
Piano Concerto No.2, Op.28 (1940) - CDLX 7282
Symphony No.3, Op.29 (1940) - CDLX 7239
Viola Concerto, Op.46 (1944-46) - CDLX 7216
Symphony No.4 (1954-55) - CDLX 7255
Please find time to explore this music, it's well worthwhile (along with Arnell discussed above). Here is a BBC documentary on Bate...
https://www.mediafire.com/file/dlaqulss89rtrwr/BATE%252C_Stanley_-_The_Lonely_Death_of_Stanley_Bate.mp3/file
:)
And if you want a bit more, here is Bate playing his Piano Concerto No.3, Op.67 (1951-52) in Oklahoma on the 4th of February 1958...
https://www.mediafire.com/file/yn17ws4fq6rw68e/Bate_-_Piano_Concerto_No.3%252C_op.67_%25281951-52%2529.mp3/file
:)
Quote from: vandermolen on April 20, 2022, 11:37:11 AMOh, I'm sure that you'll enjoy No.3 - Arnell's mother was killed in the Blitz on London and I'm sure that this tragic experience impacted on the 3rd Symphony.
Oh, I didn't realize that. Wasn't he also a contentious objector? Such complex reactions he must have felt to his home country being bombed and the resulting death of his mother yet objecting to the concept of war. No doubt his mother being murdered during the Blitz had a tremendous impact on him. Traumas travel long and far. I would like to hear The War God. Have you heard that?
Quote from: relm1 on December 11, 2022, 04:00:00 PMOh, I didn't realize that. Wasn't he also a contentious objector? Such complex reactions he must have felt to his home country being bombed and the resulting death of his mother yet objecting to the concept of war. No doubt his mother being murdered during the Blitz had a tremendous impact on him. Traumas travel long and far. I would like to hear The War God. Have you heard that?
No, never heard that - sounds most interesting. It was apparently premiered by Bernard Herrmann.
A shame there isn't any of Bate's chamber music available.
Ran across this - haven't read back to see if anyone else had noted it:
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/life-on-that-score-composer-was-an-original-20111202-1ob0d.html
Mucking about, I found that someone has loaded their own recording of the 2nd piano sonata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH4RB8K2_VM
Quote from: Scion7 on December 12, 2022, 04:40:31 AMMucking about, I found that someone has loaded their own recording of the 2nd piano sonata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH4RB8K2_VM
Thanks, I liked it! Will check out more of this pianist's recordings since he seems to like music off the beaten path.
Am I alone in thinking that Bate's Cello Concerto, released on Lyrita coupled with the Bax (SRCD 351), is a "non-happening" work? After the splendid and ear-opening Dutton releases of Symphonies 3 and 4, the Sinfonietta No.1, the Viola Concerto and the Piano Concerto No.2 I suppose that I set my expectations too high. This simply sounds to me like music running on a pretty low voltage: the Cello Concerto goes nowhere and is not melodically memorable. It's nice to have of course, but I wish that we could be given the Violin Concertos and the ballets (of which there are several)...
::)
Quote from: Albion on December 28, 2022, 02:15:21 PMAm I alone in thinking that Bate's Cello Concerto, released on Lyrita coupled with the Bax (SRCD 351), is a "non-happening" work? After the splendid and ear-opening Dutton releases of Symphonies 3 and 4, the Sinfonietta No.1, the Viola Concerto and the Piano Concerto No.2 I suppose that I set my expectations too high. This simply sounds to me like music running on a pretty low voltage: the Cello Concerto goes nowhere and is not melodically memorable. It's nice to have of course, but I wish that we could be given the Violin Concertos and the ballets (of which there are several)...
::)
I totally agree - it pales in comparison to his other works that have been recorded. It doesn't help that the soloist in that Lyrita recording isn't exactly a world-class virtuoso either.... ::)
I was recently listening to his PC No. 2 and Sinfonietta No. 1 on the below Dutton CD:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/819iyxtBQjL._SX355_.jpg)
What splendidly invigorating music, full of irrepressible energy! True, the concerto isn't exactly the most original work out there - there's clear echoes of Poulenc in the 1st movement, Ravel in the 2nd, and Prokofiev in the 3rd, but then again, those certainly aren't bad influences to have! The Sinfonietta improves with each movement until a turbocharged, almost American-sounding finale!
We haven't had any new Bate from the record companies for a while now - let's hope they haven't forgotten about the poor chap! Like you say, Albion, there's plenty more to explore in his output.