GMG Classical Music Forum

Here, you can vote for your three favourite tone poems by the great Richard Strauss.

Get voting - supply reasons if you can! :) I shall start off by voting for Eine Alpensinfonie, Ein Heldenleben and Tod und Verklärung. These three pieces are so very beautiful, absolutely favourites of mine. I love all the tone poems really, but these three convey the most emotional connection to me, such excellent pieces!

Looking forward to seeing the results!

Zarathustra, Alpensinfonie and Domestica (if it gets another vote, I'll be surprised...but it's really grown on me recently. Both Szell and Järvi are terrific performances).


Sarge

Alpine Symphony, Ein Heldenleben and Tod und Verklarung for me.

Oh..that's what Daniel said too ;D ;D    Very perceptive young man that ;D

I have to credit R. Strauss with increasing my interest in serious music back in high school, especially Till, I remember the first time I heard it was on a televised concert of the NY Phil and I smiled during the entire piece. Before I grabbed a book, pre-Internet days, to get some info on the piece I felt as if I could already conjure up my own story based on this colorful music. My other votes went to Don Quixote and Alpine, along with Till these pieces to me display the most accurate use of story-telling with music.
Seriously, are those sheep in the orchestra?

Don Quixote, Don Juan, no preference after that. I guess I like standard adventures with no metaphysics involved :P

I voted for Eine Alpensinfonie, Ein Heldenleben and Tod und Verklärung :)

Strauss Tone Poems are definitely thrilling and overwhelming, it is impossible to not be extremely involved by their great beauty and intensity! What a genius R. Strauss was!
It is no use saying that my favourite Strausses conductor is Herbert von Karajan  ;)

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 29, 2011, 06:35:05 AM
I voted for Eine Alpensinfonie, Ein Heldenleben and Tod und Verklärung :)

Strauss Tone Poems are definitely thrilling and overwhelming, it is impossible to not be extremely involved by their great beauty and intensity! What a genius R. Strauss was!
It is no use saying that my favourite Strausses conductor is Herbert von Karajan  ;)

Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 05:29:04 AM
Alpine Symphony, Ein Heldenleben and Tod und Verklarung for me.

Oh..that's what Daniel said too ;D ;D    Very perceptive young man that ;D

haha :) How wonderful that us three all share the exact same favourite Strauss tone poems! :)
I completely agree with you Ilaria, and also guessed that Karajan would be your favourite Strauss conductor!  ;D Karajan would also be my favourite probably for Strauss as well, although I wish Antoni Wit and Sir Simon Rattle would record more! David Zinman also made an excellent Strauss set!

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 29, 2011, 05:31:16 AM
I have to credit R. Strauss with increasing my interest in serious music back in high school, especially Till, I remember the first time I heard it was on a televised concert of the NY Phil and I smiled during the entire piece. Before I grabbed a book, pre-Internet days, to get some info on the piece I felt as if I could already conjure up my own story based on this colorful music. My other votes went to Don Quixote and Alpine, along with Till these pieces to me display the most accurate use of story-telling with music.
Seriously, are those sheep in the orchestra?

Wonderful! I smiled all the way through my first hearing of Till Eulenspigel as well, and actually laughed a little at the end.  ;D Such a great piece! And you are very right, Strauss is such a great "musical storyteller" as such. Perfect examples: In Till, the execution scene with the drum rolls and brass etc. In Heldenleben, the battle being depicted by a battery of percussion. Plenty of other examples to give as well! :)

Eine Alpensinfonie
Don Quixote
Ein Heldenleben

Quote from: madaboutmahler on October 29, 2011, 07:13:37 AM
;D Karajan would also be my favourite probably for Strauss as well, although I wish Antoni Wit and Sir Simon Rattle would record more! David Zinman also made an excellent Strauss set!

I agree about Wit and Zinman, they are excellent Strausses conductor, although as you said Wit hasn't recorded much; instead I've never listened to the Rattle, which of Strausses works did he record?

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 29, 2011, 07:23:46 AM
I agree about Wit and Zinman, they are excellent Strausses conductor, although as you said Wit hasn't recorded much; instead I've never listened to the Rattle, which of Strausses works did he record?

They need to record more! Wit's recording of Eine Alpensinfonie is one of my favourite recordings of all time! I think Wit also made a recording of Sinfonia Domestica , but I'd love to hear what he'd do with Heldenleben.
Rattle, as far as I know, has only made one Strauss recording which was an absolutely amazing recording of Ein Heldenleben with the Berlin Phil. I do hope he records more Strauss in the future!

Don Juan, Tod und Verklärung, Also sprach Zarathustra.

But Don Quixote and Sinfonia domestica were near.

The most strange (except of course the popularity of Havergal Brian) thing I find in GMG is the great appreciation of Eine Alpensinfonie - for me the weakest part of this cycle.

Quote from: mszczuj on October 29, 2011, 07:35:39 AM
Don Juan, Tod und Verklärung, Also sprach Zarathustra.

But Don Quixote and Sinfonia domestica were near.

The most strange (except of course the popularity of Havergal Brian) thing I find in GMG is the great appreciation of Eine Alpensinfonie - for me the weakest part of this cycle.

:o

Why?!!!!

Quote from: mszczuj on October 29, 2011, 07:35:39 AM
The most strange (except of course the popularity of Havergal Brian) thing I find in GMG is the great appreciation of Eine Alpensinfonie - for me the weakest part of this cycle.

Interesting.  In my own opinion (of course), I actually think Eine Alpensinfonie is his strongest orchestral work (and by a wide margin too).

Yet, I know this piece is a 'love or hate' piece for a lot of people, even ardent Strauss fans. 

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 29, 2011, 07:39:03 AM
Interesting.  In my own opinion (of course), I actually think Eine Alpensinfonie is his strongest orchestral work (and by a wide margin too).

Yet, I know this piece is a 'love or hate' piece for a lot of people, even ardent Strauss fans.

I compeltely agree with Ray here! For me, only Heldenleben or Tod und Verklarung come close to the Alpine Symphony in terms of beauty, mastery of orchestration, brilliance etc!

Quote from: mszczuj on October 29, 2011, 07:35:39 AM

The most strange (except of course the popularity of Havergal Brian) thing I find in GMG is the great appreciation of Eine Alpensinfonie - for me the weakest part of this cycle.

I'm rather speechless.....
I certainly respect your opinion, but I don't agree; I think Eine Alpensinfonie is maybe the best work Strauss composed, for intensity, beauty, harmonic richness and great orchestration. It's a very gorgeous, involving and thrilling piece.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 29, 2011, 07:59:19 AM
I'm rather speechless.....
I certainly respect your opinion, but I don't agree; I think Eine Alpensinfonie is maybe the best work Strauss composed, for intensity, beauty, harmonic richness and great orchestration. It's a very gorgeous, involving and thrilling piece.

I completely agree! I'd be interested to know their reasons!

Two votes will suffice for me: Don Juan and Till Eulenspiegel. Don't like others much.

Also Sprach is still by far my favorite.  I'm rather tired of Heldenleben.  Don Juan and Til have the advantage of brevity.

Don Juan
Also sprach Zarathustra
Ein Heldenleben

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 29, 2011, 07:59:19 AM
I think Eine Alpensinfonie is maybe the best work Strauss composed, for intensity, beauty,

Are we talking about Richard Strauss, one of the greatest artists among the composers in the whole history of music and probably most technically accomplished of all of them? Really? This funny musical travel blog is for you his masterpiece?

For me it is is absolutely not this kind of great music that Strauss made before and after. Just because it is not so overwhelming wise as his best works. And have nothing to compare to (for example) Elektra about intensity or to Im Abendrot about beauty.

No, I don't think it is very bad, I don't even think it is really bad but I find it incoherent, rather superficial, in some moments hysterical and almost ridiculous in some concepts.

And there is one really serious technical mistake in it. He used the wandering theme not as ostinato but as theme in variations or leitmotiv. Consecutively after the intense  beginning - even to intense  beginning  - do you really feel like that while watching the sunrise?  - he at once lost a climbing idea and give as a kaleidoscope of wandering scenes - which create rather poor bridge to the climax at the summit and give him no possibility to make this climax really distinctive. We have in it not much more we have in the sunrise. And then we have not very intense thunderstorm descent which makes not very good reason for final calming down.

The really most spectacular fragment of the work is the beginning of the trip. So it is hard to find good reason for this trip.

Nice to listen but nothing like really great Strauss - not in his top twenty.

I'm pretty burnt out on Strauss, but I chose Alpensinfonie, Also sprach Zarathustra, and Don Juan. I don't think these works contain much emotional depth to them, but I admire their craft and the orchestration is just unbelievable.

I don't listen to much Strauss either but I do like him quite a bit and have a small collection of his Tone Poems and Operas.
From the poll I selected Alpensinfonie (which is one of my favourite orchestral works by any Composer), Ein Heldenleben and Also Sprach Zarathustra :)

Quote from: Conor71 on October 29, 2011, 08:06:45 PM
I don't listen to much Strauss either but I do like him quite a bit and have a small collection of his Tone Poems and Operas.
From the poll I selected Alpensinfonie (which is one of my favourite orchestral works by any Composer), Ein Heldenleben and Also Sprach Zarathustra :)

Wonderful to hear this, it is one of my absolute favourites from any composer as well! Please do help defending it in the debate below!

Quote from: mszczuj on October 29, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
Are we talking about Richard Strauss, one of the greatest artists among the composers in the whole history of music and probably most technically accomplished of all of them? Really? This funny musical travel blog is for you his masterpiece?

For me it is is absolutely not this kind of great music that Strauss made before and after. Just because it is not so overwhelming wise as his best works. And have nothing to compare to (for example) Elektra about intensity or to Im Abendrot about beauty.

No, I don't think it is very bad, I don't even think it is really bad but I find it incoherent, rather superficial, in some moments hysterical and almost ridiculous in some concepts.

And there is one really serious technical mistake in it. He used the wandering theme not as ostinato but as theme in variations or leitmotiv. Consecutively after the intense  beginning - even to intense  beginning  - do you really feel like that while watching the sunrise?  - he at once lost a climbing idea and give as a kaleidoscope of wandering scenes - which create rather poor bridge to the climax at the summit and give him no possibility to make this climax really distinctive. We have in it not much more we have in the sunrise. And then we have not very intense thunderstorm descent which makes not very good reason for final calming down.

The really most spectacular fragment of the work is the beginning of the trip. So it is hard to find good reason for this trip.

Nice to listen but nothing like really great Strauss - not in his top twenty.

Yes, we are talking about Richard Strauss, and I have no problem agreeing with Ilaria in saying that I also think that the Alpine Symphony is probably his greatest overall work. Obviously opinions can differ from one another, but I cannot see how you can be so critical of such an amazing work! I think it is far more than a 'funny musical travel blog'. I can't think of many other pieces that are more depictive, powerful and immensely beautiful! You say you wouldn't put the Alpine Symphony in Strauss' top 20 works - please do enlighten us with 20 other works of his that you think are better then!

I get extremely defensive when it comes to my favourite composers/pieces....
Have a nice day!  ;D

Quote from: mszczuj on October 29, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
Are we talking about Richard Strauss, one of the greatest artists among the composers in the whole history of music and probably most technically accomplished of all of them? Really? This funny musical travel blog is for you his masterpiece?

For me it is is absolutely not this kind of great music that Strauss made before and after. Just because it is not so overwhelming wise as his best works. And have nothing to compare to (for example) Elektra about intensity or to Im Abendrot about beauty.

No, I don't think it is very bad, I don't even think it is really bad but I find it incoherent, rather superficial, in some moments hysterical and almost ridiculous in some concepts.

And there is one really serious technical mistake in it. He used the wandering theme not as ostinato but as theme in variations or leitmotiv. Consecutively after the intense  beginning - even to intense  beginning  - do you really feel like that while watching the sunrise?  - he at once lost a climbing idea and give as a kaleidoscope of wandering scenes - which create rather poor bridge to the climax at the summit and give him no possibility to make this climax really distinctive. We have in it not much more we have in the sunrise. And then we have not very intense thunderstorm descent which makes not very good reason for final calming down.

The really most spectacular fragment of the work is the beginning of the trip. So it is hard to find good reason for this trip.

Nice to listen but nothing like really great Strauss - not in his top twenty.

Rather strange for me to read this considering I voted for only one piece - the one that is for me head and shoulders above those listed. You guessed it - Mr. Alpine. I would have chosen some of his operas over this perhaps, but those are different. And mind you, I love many of the others that were listed. This is not meant to belittle them.

I think you are short-changing the Alpine Symphony here. I would not disagree that Electra (and Salome) bring a different type of intensity, but the Alpine Symphony has more of a controlled intensity interspersed by some great pastoral ideas. As the sunrise theme comes, I am not sure what you mean by 'that' (bolded). Do I feel the world opening to me? Yes? Do I feel the lethargy of night turning to day and action? Yes. Do I feel the sunrise theme is inspiring? Yes. But this seems critical to you, and we don't know what the 'that' is for you. And what do you mean the climax isn't distinctive? I cannot think of a more spine tingling, goose bump inducing moment in all of music when it comes to the feeling of awe and picture of reaching the summit and looking out across the world. 

By the way, a description from Wikipedia on the opening:

QuoteStrauss's An Alpine Symphony opens on a unison B-flat in the strings, horns, and lower woodwinds. From this note a dark B-flat minor scale slowly descends. Each new note is sustained until, eventually, every degree of the scale is heard simultaneously, creating an "opaque mass" of tone representing the deep, mysterious night on the mountain. Trombones and tuba emerge from this wash of sound to solemnly declaim the mountain theme, a majestic motive which recurs often in later sections of the piece. This passage is a rare instance of Strauss's use of polytonality, as the shifting harmony in the middle part of the mountain theme (which includes a D minor triad) clashes intensely with the sustained notes of the B-flat minor scale. As night gives way to daylight in "Sunrise", the theme of the sun is heard—a glorious descending A Major scale which is thematically related to the opening scale depicting night time.

And the thunderstorm and descent - why does this not seem intense? The minors there and all the runs and shifting of the theme all give a solid foundation for a thunderstorm (not to mention the sound effect of wind as well). It is very unsettling for me with the lack of a center through much of it. 

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 30, 2011, 05:02:22 AM
I think you are short-changing the Alpine Symphony here. I would not disagree that Electra (and Salome) bring a different type of intensity, but the Alpine Symphony has more of a controlled intensity interspersed by some great pastoral ideas. As the sunrise theme comes, I am not sure what you mean by 'that' (bolded). Do I feel the world opening to me? Yes? Do I feel the lethargy of night turning to day and action? Yes. Do I feel the sunrise theme is inspiring? Yes. But this seems critical to you, and we don't know what the 'that' is for you. And what do you mean the climax isn't distinctive? I cannot think of a more spine tingling, goose bump inducing moment in all of music when it comes to the feeling of awe and picture of reaching the summit and looking out across the world. 

Excellently argued - I completely agree with you! The Alpine Symphony has to be one of the most incredibly depictive pieces ever written, surely even people who personally do not like the work would agree with that! Agree with the quote I have highlighted, that section is simply amazing, so powerful!

Alpine outrageously overrated, Don Quixote outrageously underrated. For me Don Quixote is his greatest non vocal work.

Quote from: Guido on October 30, 2011, 05:33:47 AM
Alpine outrageously overrated, Don Quixote outrageously underrated. For me Don Quixote is his greatest non vocal work.

You think Alpensinfonie is overrated? Why? Don Quixote is a fine a work though, that much I agree with.

The summit  :o

http://www.youtube.com/v/xK7z2NhUrsQ

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2011, 09:00:00 AM
You think Alpensinfonie is overrated? Why? Don Quixote is a fine a work though, that much I agree with.

Yes, why? It's not even the most famous of the Strauss tone poems, which surely would be Also Sprach Zarathustra due to the opening.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 30, 2011, 09:02:33 AM
The summit  :o

http://www.youtube.com/v/xK7z2NhUrsQ

That section is so incredibly amazing, so passionate and powerful! Always sends shivers down my spine! The Berlin Phil are absolutely breathtaking here!

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 30, 2011, 05:02:22 AM
we don't know what the 'that' is for you.

Today only about that:

http://www.4shared.com/audio/kcfXUnCo/that.html

Quote from: mszczuj on October 30, 2011, 01:44:13 PM
Today only about that:

http://www.4shared.com/audio/kcfXUnCo/that.html

By that point the sunrise has already taken place in that the first rays have already hit. So now we are at the tail end of sunrise. Could be bird calls, could be just the hustle and bustle that follows the sunrise or the singing forth of nature.

I'm shocked. There is another vote for Domestica.  ;D  (By the way, when I listen to it, I completely ignore the program. I think that is essential to enjoying the piece.)

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2011, 02:19:22 AM
I'm shocked. There is another vote for Domestica.  ;D  (By the way, when I listen to it, I completely ignore the program. I think that is essential to enjoying the piece.)

Sarge

Good point. I've always believed that Domestica featured some of his best music, but it's not necessarily his best tone poem, to me it's best thought as Strauss using his family as inspiration for musical portraits  rather than telling a story, my 3 choices (Till, Quioxte, & Alpine) I feel use colorful instrumentation to portray scenery, action and even words.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2011, 02:19:22 AM
I'm shocked. There is another vote for Domestica.  ;D  (By the way, when I listen to it, I completely ignore the program. I think that is essential to enjoying the piece.)

This was my tack when listening to Ein Heldenleben on Saturday night . . . a delight to hear the BSO play this!

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2011, 04:46:39 AM

This was my tack when listening to Ein Heldenleben on Saturday night . . . a delight to hear the BSO play this!

Glad to hear you enjoyed it, Karl!   :)

BTW, Manitoba Opera is performing Strauss' Salome in November.  This will be my first Manitoba Opera concert I attend!

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2011, 09:00:00 AM
You think Alpensinfonie is overrated? Why? Don Quixote is a fine a work though, that much I agree with.

Though it contains many, many wonderful things, as a symphony it doesn't work, and so often he substitutes wondrously energetic note spinning for true inspiration when the muse flags - he was probably the most prefessional composer to work after Beethoven. There's just way too much dross and slag amongst the gold in this piece. For me it's the tone poem equivelant of Die Frau Ohne Schatten - the most ambitious, and lofty of his attempts in the genre, but has so far to fall because of this, and what's required is fundamentally not where his genius lies. Much though I adore him (I really do!), Strauss cannot exalt like Wagner or Bruckner, and that's exactly what is required here. He can't compose a spiritual journey, only an onomatopoeic one.

Quote from: Guido on October 31, 2011, 05:45:42 AM
He can't compose a spiritual journey, only an onomatopoeic one.

I'm not sure I understand. Can't anyone write a spiritual music piece?

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2011, 04:46:39 AM

This was my tack when listening to Ein Heldenleben on Saturday night . . . a delight to hear the BSO play this!

<--------Jealous monkey...I saw Philly O. do Heldenleben years ago, such a fun piece to see live. And if I read right, Kremer playing Schumann?  :o ;D

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 31, 2011, 06:12:40 AM

<--------Jealous monkey...I saw Philly O. do Heldenleben years ago, such a fun piece to see live. And if I read right, Kremer playing Schumann?  :o ;D

Yes, a lovely concert in its entirety, indeed.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2011, 02:19:22 AM
I'm shocked. There is another vote for Domestica.  ;D  (By the way, when I listen to it, I completely ignore the program. I think that is essential to enjoying the piece.)

Sarge

That would be me. I see I voted for Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie and Symphonia Domestica back in 2011 - and my tastes haven't changed. I consider Don Quixote the greatest of the lot. Eine Alpensinfonie, my second favourite, is far more profound and nuanced than many give it credit for (tantalizingly, the working title was for a time Der Antichrist: Eine Alpensinfonie - after Nietsche) and Symphonia Domestica is infectiously fun, witty and contains some of the best music Strauss ever wrote (I'm also very fond of the Parergon zur Symphonia Domestica, the left-hand piano concerto companion piece written for Paul Wittgenstein). Also sprach Zarathustra, Tod und Verklärung and Ein Heldenleben share fourth place. I don't much care for the others (although I do listen to Don Juan or Aus Italien on occassion).

Quote from: Wanderer on January 10, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
That would be me. I see I voted for Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie and Symphonia Domestica back in 2011 - and my tastes haven't changed.

Wow! After four years, you've finally stepped out of the shadows!  :D  Although I don't share your enthusiasm for Quixote (one of those works I admit is a masterpiece and yet seldom listen to), I heartily endorse your other choices.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2011, 02:19:22 AM
I'm shocked. There is another vote for Domestica.  ;D  (By the way, when I listen to it, I completely ignore the program. I think that is essential to enjoying the piece.)

Sarge

What wonderful resonance that might have enjoyed on The Nameless Thread 8)

Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2016, 09:34:34 AM
What wonderful resonance that might have enjoyed on The Nameless Thread 8)

Too true...one has to learn to ignore that consummate manipulator  ;D

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2016, 09:37:09 AM
Too true...one has to learn to ignore that consummate manipulator  ;D

Sarge

Hah!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2016, 09:24:30 AM
Wow! After four years, you've finally stepped out of the shadows!  :D

Sarge

I'd managed to miss your post, but one doesn't have an inkling to check the last pages of the Composers' section for nothing.

Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2016, 09:34:34 AM
What wonderful resonance that might have enjoyed on The Nameless Thread 8)

You devious agent provocateur, you.  $:)

Quote from: Wanderer on January 10, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
That would be me. I see I voted for Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie and Symphonia Domestica back in 2011 - and my tastes haven't changed. I consider Don Quixote the greatest of the lot. Eine Alpensinfonie, my second favourite, is far more profound and nuanced than many give it credit for (tantalizingly, the working title was for a time Der Antichrist: Eine Alpensinfonie - after Nietsche) and Symphonia Domestica is infectiously fun, witty and contains some of the best music Strauss ever wrote (I'm also very fond of the Parergon zur Symphonia Domestica, the left-hand piano concerto companion piece written for Paul Wittgenstein). Also sprach Zarathustra, Tod und Verklärung and Ein Heldenleben share fourth place. I don't much care for the others (although I do listen to Don Juan or Aus Italien on occassion).

Yes, I like Domestica, too. Voted just now. (Somehow I don't remember seeing this thread).

The TP that eludes me so far is Alpine. I won't stop trying, though...

Quote from: Wanderer on January 10, 2016, 09:09:22 AM
That would be me. I see I voted for Don Quixote, Eine Alpensinfonie and Symphonia Domestica back in 2011 - and my tastes haven't changed. I consider Don Quixote the greatest of the lot. Eine Alpensinfonie, my second favourite, is far more profound and nuanced than many give it credit for (tantalizingly, the working title was for a time Der Antichrist: Eine Alpensinfonie - after Nietzsche) and Symphonia Domestica is infectiously fun, witty and contains some of the best music Strauss ever wrote (I'm also very fond of the Parergon zur Symphonia Domestica, the left-hand piano concerto companion piece written for Paul Wittgenstein). Also sprach Zarathustra, Tod und Verklärung and Ein Heldenleben share fourth place. I don't much care for the others (although I do listen to Don Juan or Aus Italien on occasion).

Somehow I missed this thread back when. I have chosen A-Sinfonie, H-leben and DQ - in no final order, as I keep switching.  Sarge's point about ignoring the programme is very much to the point, I believe. Of course, one cannot but register the various "poetic" interpretations and be affected by them in one way or another, yet listening with open ears to what Strauss does, and how, is the essential thing. Wanderer's point about the Nietzsche title is, however, very significant - and here I append a note I wrote to a discussion board some years ago, when somebody suggested the work had no "philosophical underpinnings":
>It may cast a different light on any performance... to know that in fact the Alpensinfonie does have philosophical - and biographical - underpinnings. It was originally titled "Der Antichrist", referring to Nietzsche's polemic of 1888, representing an attempt to show how in attaining the pure air of the lonely heights of moral autonomy and leaving behind the undergrowth of Christian civilisation, man (the Übermensch) must experience the cleansing force of the thunderstorm and other natural forces symbolising the dangers of freedom. The work also has a secret hero [the projected title was 'The tragedy of an artist' MJW], the Swiss painter and passionate mountain climber Karl Stauffer, who committed suicide in Florence in 1891 after his imprisonment for adultery with the wife of a leading Swiss citizen. Strauss decided not to make reference to biographical details in his work, but it is not impossible to feel the ending as a kind of death, a "Freitod" (a free death) as one of the German terms has it - the other term, full of the "Moralinsäure" (moralising acid) hated by Nietzsche, being "Selbstmord" (self-murder, as Hamlet also puts it). Perhaps it is an occasion for a re-appraisal of Strauss to understand his sympathy for Nietzsche's words in the Anti-Christ about "the courage to investigate what is forbidden; the predestination for the labyrinth. An experience made out of seven lonelinesses. New ears for new music" - and further: "One must be practised to live on mountains - to see the pitiful topical chatter of politics and the egotism of peoples far below one. One must have become indifferent, one must never ask whether truth is useful or might even be fatal to oneself."
I found the performance I heard of the Alpine symphony by the Ensemble Modern at a series of Lachenmann concerts in Frankfurt a couple of years ago reflected the daring, the tumult, the final cession of life-spirits without all the jolly nature wonders that programme writers have been eager to plaster over the work and its tragic background.<
I might add that Lachenmann, perhaps unexpectedly, admitted during an onstage conversation that this was one of his favourite works. The 2nd part of the concert was his own Ausklang, very indirectly based upon the ending of Strauss's work.

A very long time ago I read in some book on music theory that any music whiich ended as it started meant that you had not gone anywhere. And in my adolesent impressionism I believed it. So, when I first heard the Alpine Symphony I wrote it off as sensational effects music. It was years before I went to a concert that included it and was bowled over by it. Perhaps it does go in a circle, but for sure there is a journey. It gradually grew to be my favourite of the tone poems.

I do feel though that Death and Transfiguration is the best of them; cohesive, concise and moving.

Mike

There is real art in making one's way back to exactly where one started.

Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2016, 12:05:27 PM
There is real art in making one's way back to exactly where one started.

Yeah, just like going to a lecture or a concert or a surgery or something and coming back home - it's as if nothing happened to you.

Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2016, 12:05:27 PM
There is real art in making one's way back to exactly where one started.

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

                  --T.S. Eliot, Little Gidding, Four Quartets

I may have missrememberd this, but I think the Beethoven Missa Solemnis opens and closes with the same music. A little bit of a journey there.....

Mike

The original version of Janáček's Glagolitic Mass does, too.

I chose Don Juan, Till Eulenspiegel, and Tod und Verklärung. These are to my mind the most tightly written and least pretentious of the tone poems. Some of the longer ones, like Heldenleben, Also Sprach, and Domestica are much too diffuse and incoherent for my liking. If I could vote for a fourth it would be Don Quixote, or Elgar's In the South, which I consider the best Strauss tone poem not actually by Richard Strauss.

Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, Ein Heldenleben and Eine Alpensinfonie were my three choices.

1. Eine Alpensinfonie
2. Tod und Verklärung
3. Macbeth

Eine Alpensinfonie has always been my favourite.
Macbeth is a wonderful work.

Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 12:21:36 PM
I may have missrememberd this, but I think the Beethoven Missa Solemnis opens and closes with the same music. A little bit of a journey there.....

Mike

Not really. I mean, it opens and closes with D major chords, but I don't hear a direct allusion here.

I did not mean the literal end; I thought the opening phrases were used with different words almost at the end of the final movement. I will have to listen to it, perhaps tomorrow.

Mike

Nop, I am wrong, I wonder what piece I was thinking of?

Never mind.

Mike

Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 02:23:16 PM
I did not mean the literal end; I thought the opening phrases were used with different words almost at the end of the final movement. I will have to listen to it, perhaps tomorrow.

Mike

I would not say so.

It was the Beethoven Mass in C, the Dona Nobis Pachem at the end is to the same tune as the opening of the Kyrie.

Phew.

Mike

favourite? the last three...

Ein Heldenleben
Symphonia Domestica
Eine Alpensinfonie

If I were allowed to vote again, I would choose without hesitation: Tod und Verklärung, Eine Alpensinfonie, and Ein Heldenleben. Don Quixote and Sinfonia Domestica have also been under my radar over past couple of months and I've really been enjoying those tone poems a lot.

Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 02:33:43 PM
It was the Beethoven Mass in C, the Dona Nobis Pachem at the end is to the same tune as the opening of the Kyrie.

Phew.

Mike

Ah. I always forget about that one; it's never really interested me.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 11, 2016, 03:12:00 PMSinfonia Domestica have also been under my radar over past couple of months and I've really been enjoying those tone poems a lot.

I use to detect Sinfonia Domestica, but have warmed up to it over the last few years.

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 11, 2016, 06:21:09 PM
I use to detect Sinfonia Domestica, but have warmed up to it over the last few years.

I used to detest Richard Strauss in general but I've warmed up to his music quite a bit over the past year. ;)

I have great love for Strauss' tone poems (with the exception of Sinfonia Domestica). My top 3 would be Tod und Verklärung, Alpensinfonie and Also Sprach Zarathustra.

Quote from: Alberich on October 01, 2016, 05:54:19 AM
I have great love for Strauss' tone poems (with the exception of Sinfonia Domestica). My top 3 would be Tod und Verklärung, Alpensinfonie and Also Sprach Zarathustra.

My 'Top 3' now would probably be Tod und Verklärung, Don Quixote, and Sinfonia Domestica (a hugely underrated work IMHO).

Voted for Tod und Verklärung, Ein Heldenleben and Eine Alpensinfonie, although Domestica was close to being included as well.

Quote from: knight66 on January 11, 2016, 11:17:41 AM
A very long time ago I read in some book on music theory that any music whiich ended as it started meant that you had not gone anywhere.

How did that reflect on the "Theme and variations" form?

?  This is a poll - we have an article on Richard Strauss already - wrong section?

I like most all of them -

certainly Don J, T&D, Till, Also Sprach, Don Q, Heldenleben, Sym Dom, Alpine...
my top three are Don Juan, Also Sprach, Heldenleben, but I do so enjoy the others as well.

Quote from: Abuelo Igor on October 02, 2016, 02:38:58 AM
How did that reflect on the "Theme and variations" form?

Oh, it was silent on that. I recall that the Alpine Symphony was specified and dismissed with a comment about going up the mountain then marching down again, supposedly also reflecting the technical aspects of the musical journey.

Anyway, that critic is probably dead by now and I still listen with huge pleasure to The Alpine.

Mike