GMG Classical Music Forum

Inspired by these posts:

Quote from: Bulldog on November 15, 2011, 08:05:10 PM
Why did you post what might be the worst song Genesis ever recorded? [meaning "Entangled"]

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 16, 2011, 06:00:47 AM
I'd nominate "Illegal Alien" for that dishonor.

What's your preferred "worst song by Genesis"? (Why am I thinking it should be from And Then There Were Three . . . ? Or should it be from Calling All Stations . . . an album to which I haven't yet listened?)

In the topic header, though, I am leaving open the possibility of other lines of discourse . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:15:08 AM
Inspired by these posts:

What's your preferred "worst song by Genesis"? (Why am I thinking it should be from And Then There Were Three . . . ? Or should it be from Calling All Stations . . . an album to which I haven't yet listened?)

In the topic header, though, I am leaving open the possibility of other lines of discourse . . . .

And here I was gearing up for the "male/female- man/woman" debate! ::)

That's All!

saw Genesis in concert in the late 80s, possibly their Invisible Touch tour.

I disliked post-Wind & Wuthering (well, actually, post-Seconds Out) Genesis so much I can't even name the songs! Guess I'll have to say Banana!

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 16, 2011, 06:33:04 AM
I disliked post-Wind & Wuthering (well, actually, post-Seconds Out) Genesis so much I can't even name the songs! Guess I'll have to say Banana!

Hey! Banana is the only song by Genesis that I liked!

That's the song they subsequently renamed "Mama," I believe.

I take it that nobody believes the worst Genesis song was recorded while Peter Gabriel was with the band? ; )

Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:41:08 AM
That's the song they subsequently renamed "Mama," I believe.

I take it that nobody believes the worst Genesis song was recorded while Peter Gabriel was with the band? ; )

Well, let me put it this way:  I have yet to hear a song involving Peter Gabriel which I did not find interesting to listen to, even if ultimately I can't say I actually liked it.  Whereas I would be hard pressed to identify a song involving Phil Collins of which I can say the same, even though I like most of the Collins era songs in an easy listening--Andre Rieu sort of way.

Maybe I should post this in the Unpopular Opinions thread, but . . . I actually like "Supper's Ready" rather better on Seconds Out than on Foxtrot.  And only partly because the band sound so much warmer, and punchier, on the live album.  The two versions of this track highlight for me how at times unnecessarily distracting Peter Gabriel's overwrought dramatism can be.

Still, there can be no denying that it was that showiness which brough the band publicity at a tender time . . . but when I see footage from that era, the overall impression I get tends to be, well, rather goofy.

I'm not a fan of their song "I cant Dance"  :-X

Quote from: Conor71 on November 16, 2011, 10:36:30 AM
I'm not a fan of their song "I cant Dance"  :-X

D'you know, if I had heard it back when they first released it, I may well have reacted rather negatively, myself.

As it is, I first made the song's acquaintance via a DVD where they talked about working the song up . . . and I'm jiggered if that didn't hook me in.  I really do like it.  Of course, it's nothing like "The Musical Box," or "Watcher of the Skies," or "Firth of Fifth," or "The Waiting Room," or "Los Endos," or, or, or . . . but, such as it is, I do indeed like it.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 10:41:00 AM
D'you know, if I had heard it back when they first released it, I may well have reacted rather negatively, myself.

As it is, I first made the song's acquaintance via a DVD where they talked about working the song up . . . and I'm jiggered if that didn't hook me in.  I really do like it.  Of course, it's nothing like "The Musical Box," or "Watcher of the Skies," or "Firth of Fifth," or "The Waiting Room," or "Los Endos," or, or, or . . . but, such as it is, I do indeed like it.

My aquaintance with the song is pretty casual so its possible I missed something with it! - I think it was the Music Video that put me off it a bit at the time it was released!.
I will probably revisit it at some stage though - The only Collins Era albums I have heard in full are And Then there were Three and Invisible Touch both of which I used to own and may buy again in the future :)

I tired of them quickly. SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND is pretty good though. Prefer solo Gabriel and I don't even listen to that these days.

And we're still mates.

Can't link it at the moment, but the Land of Confusion music video was great.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 12:25:16 PM
And we're still mates.

0:)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 16, 2011, 12:29:20 PM
Can't link it at the moment, but the Land of Confusion music video was great.

See? Different strokes. That video makes me want to kill something.

Quote from: Ataraxia on November 16, 2011, 12:30:11 PM
See? Different strokes. That video makes me want to kill something.

Well, Im glad you didn't...or did you? :o  ;D

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 16, 2011, 12:29:20 PM
Can't link it at the moment, but the Land of Confusion music video was great.

And since it's puppets, Tony Banks jokes that that was the easiest video for the band to make . . . and too bad the puppets couldn't go on tour for them . . . .

Quote from: Conor71 on November 16, 2011, 10:47:14 AM

My aquaintance with the song is pretty casual so its possible I missed something with it! - I think it was the Music Video that put me off it a bit at the time it was released!.
I will probably revisit it at some stage though - The only Collins Era albums I have heard in full are And Then there were Three and Invisible Touch both of which I used to own and may buy again in the future :)

If someone had asked the question back when the Genesis album was freshly released, I should probably then have nominated "That's All" as the worst song of their'n.

Time has passed, and I even listen to that song quite tolerantly . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
And since it's puppets, Tony Banks jokes that that was the easiest video for the band to make . . . and too bad the puppets couldn't go on tour for them . . . .

Only Kraftwerk have pulled that off :). Well, maybe not a tour, but at least a number of photo sessions.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 16, 2011, 12:29:20 PM
Can't link it at the moment, but the Land of Confusion music video was great.

Yes, those Spitting Image puppets were cool and different. Back in the 80s and early 90s, rock bands' videos played an integral part of their success.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 16, 2011, 06:15:08 AM
Inspired by these posts:

What's your preferred "worst song by Genesis"? (Why am I thinking it should be from And Then There Were Three . . . ? Or should it be from Calling All Stations . . . an album to which I haven't yet listened?)

In the topic header, though, I am leaving open the possibility of other lines of discourse . . . .

Missing Caliing All Stations, but thought this was an interesting review....do not agree with all of it, but interesting:

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/platipus143/genesis__from_best_to_worst

I always felt that Phil Collins, in his '80s 'divorcing his wife' hits, it seems that not only is he singing about the same breakup over and over, but the same INCIDENT over and over.

I can't stand this stuff, except when I'm heartbroken, then all I can hear is Phill singing Misunderstanding.

I was waiting in the rain... for hours!!

There's Something Going On!

That's All!

Take...A...Look...At...Me...Now!!

http://www.youtube.com/v/8NHi4_rhj5chttp://www.youtube.com/v/AFDNZ24eo8s

http://www.youtube.com/v/1pkVLqSaahk&feature=related


Top two are covers of the song, bottom one is official video.

Quote from: snyprrr on November 16, 2011, 08:02:53 PM
I always felt that Phil Collins, in his '80s 'divorcing his wife' hits, it seems that not only is he singing about the same breakup over and over, but the same INCIDENT over and over.

I can't stand this stuff, except when I'm heartbroken, then all I can hear is Phill singing Misunderstanding.

I was waiting in the rain... for hours!!

There's Something Going On!

That's All!

Take...A...Look...At...Me...Now!!

...aaAAHhhh...

Have you ever thought, snypsss, that maybe it's because you want to hear the divorce? . . .

Quote from: Bogey on November 16, 2011, 07:39:10 PM
Missing Caliing All Stations, but thought this was an interesting review....do not agree with all of it, but interesting:

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/platipus143/genesis__from_best_to_worst (http://rateyourmusic.com/list/platipus143/genesis__from_best_to_worst)

Most interesting, thanks for this, Bill.  A couple of initial take-aways . . . .

Globally, I am struck by how solidly within-the-box the thinking is (in effect, any album with Peter Gabriel is of necessity better than any album without; then, any album with Steve Hackett is of necessity better than any album without . . . . to be sure, the sui generis inaugural album is tucked in near the bottom).

Curiously, there is the striking remark about The Lamb, "the band's songwriting was at its peak."  That evaluation appears to be at variance with the Gabriel-über-alles criterion . . . as The Lamb is famous for the band's strain.  Apart from (for instance) the melody in "Carpet Crawlers" which Gabriel is proud to have written, the vast expanse of the album is mostly the musical work of Banks-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins.  So if the writer has such high regard for their work, why do both the quartet albums get shunted down the list?

In principle, I'd agree that Trespass is "underrated." But rank it second?

Curious remarks on Selling England, supposedly "definitely the weakest from the era," but his only criticisms are "sort of uneven and inconsistent."  I mean, I certainly disagree, but I am happy to entertain an argument.

I think the idea of Trick of the Tail being "a [...] cousin of Selling England by the Pound" intriguing, setting aside his avowed disaste for the latter.

For Duke: "This one is great."  Then all the albums better than it (nos. 1 through 8) are super-great, right?  We seem to have a guy who set to a list, but didn't have steam to think things through.

Footnote: Pity that the fellow's spelling and punctuation are (* ahem *) inconsistent.

Early in my development as a guitarist, I admired Steve Hackett, Steve Howe, Robert Fripp, David Gilmour, and Alex Lifeson. For me, these guys are the greatest progressive rock guitarists. I still admire them 21 years later. Since this is a Genesis thread, I would like to talk about Steve Hackett. One of the great things about Hackett besides his obvious curiosity in exploring a wide range of music was his willingness to push the guitar forward. He is, however, often overlooked and neglected in regards to some of the guitar techniques he introduced to listeners. One of the most striking was finger tapping (made famous by Eddie Van Halen), but Hackett did it in '71! Also, Hackett used volume swells to create ghostly effects. Hackett was, as was Howe, quite known to play several different guitars in one piece. Hackett would switch from acoustic guitar to electric guitar in the same song. What impresses me still to this day was how much Hackett listened to the other band members and followed them and found a way to fit his style into the heavily dominant keyboard work of Tony Banks. He's still around today recording progressive rock and maturing as a musician.

Now back to Genesis...

I love all of Genesis' early recordings from Trespass to Lamb Lies Down On Broadway to Wind & Wuthering. For me, you just can't beat this period in the band's history.

brrrrrrr (shiver) The Dreaded 'Genesis' Thread Returns! :o

... but, yea, Hackett's cool. ;)

Quote from: snyprrr on July 11, 2012, 05:54:41 PM
brrrrrrr (shiver) The Dreaded 'Genesis' Thread Returns! :o

... but, yea, Hackett's cool. ;)

What progressive rock groups do you like, snyprrr?

Love the range of sounds that Hackett could coax out of his guitar.

Quote from: karlhenning on July 11, 2012, 06:24:37 PM
Love the range of sounds that Hackett could coax out of his guitar.

Yeah, he was such a master of color. Back in the early 70s, there weren't many effects pedals, so it's amazing he found alternative and creative ways around this.

Now listening:

[asin]B000002J2B[/asin]

Speaking of Hackett's diverse creative palette, according to the liner notes, he plays the following instruments on Wind & Wuthering: electric guitar, nylon classical guitar, 12-string acoustic guitar, kalimba, and auto-harp.

It's an album I need to be in just the right humor for, but there are few albums so gloriously powerful in their entirety as The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 11, 2012, 05:56:55 PM
What progressive rock groups do you like, snyprrr?

That question literally made me squirm, haha! I really can't take music where the whole band has to play the exact same 16th note run (Zappa, DiMeola). SOME King Crimson is getting close to what I will tolerate, but mostly,... hmm,... and this includes RUSH,... most prog rock just didn't do what I needed it to. A 'Classically' (Avant) inspired,... perhaps a Reich+Xenakis type, 2 drummer, 2 bassist, 2 guitar thing would be up my alley, but I don't think...

Wait, here's my problem: the 'pop' guys tried to go 'Classical',... but the Classical guys haven't really gone... METAL!! I think a lot of us on here agree that that is what needs to happen. A totally written out, awesome, Classical METAL (and I don't mean Malmsteen or King Diamond),... something a few notches up from Tool,... and, without the satanism! Pure.

I have yet to hear an electric guitar piece that truly satisfies (check the 'Guitarists Unite' Thread in the Performer Page).

Actually, 'Naked City' wasn't too bad, but the screaming 'yo boy ruined it.

Quote from: snyprrr on July 12, 2012, 06:32:23 AM
That question literally made me squirm, haha! I really can't take music where the whole band has to play the exact same 16th note run (Zappa, DiMeola).

Do you find orchestral unisons squirm-inducing, too?

I'm a composer, you know, and I want to know how to push your buttons, bwa-ha-ha-ha-hah! . . . .

I am currently slowly working my way through the Genesis back-catalog -- I just pulled up Wind & Wuthering on my ipod (prompted by Mirror Image's post), and am listening as I type.  I first encountered Genesis through the later Phil Collins period (Abacab and Genesis were the only two albums I had back in the day), and quite enjoyed them, but the 90's stuff didn't really appeal, and I didn't come back to them for quite a while. 

I've long enjoyed Peter Gabriel's solo stuff, and eventually curiosity got the better of me and I started to explore.  I still haven't filled in all of the early albums; greatly enjoyed When the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.  What, in your expert opinions, is the best PG-era album?

Tough question, and chances are there will be someone to favor each of them.  By a narrow margin, I'd call Selling England by the Pound my favorite. That instrumental middle to "Firth of Fifth" where Hackett brilliantly echoes Gabriel's earlier flute solo, chills every time.

Mm, crickets : )

Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2012, 11:15:35 AM
Tough question, and chances are there will be someone to favor each of them.  By a narrow margin, I'd call Selling England by the Pound my favorite. That instrumental middle to "Firth of Fifth" where Hackett brilliantly echoes Gabriel's earlier flute solo, chills every time.

+1

Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, The Battle of Epping Forest, Firth of Fifth, and The Cinema Show are favorites from that album. The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway has always been a favorite of mine. In truth, I like all of their progressive albums. A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering are my favorites from the Collins years.

It's interesting to note Tony Banks was very dissatisfied with The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway whereas Peter Gabriel has said it's his favorite album he did with Genesis.

Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2012, 11:10:50 AM
I am currently slowly working my way through the Genesis back-catalog -- I just pulled up Wind & Wuthering on my ipod (prompted by Mirror Image's post), and am listening as I type.  I first encountered Genesis through the later Phil Collins period (Abacab and Genesis were the only two albums I had back in the day), and quite enjoyed them, but the 90's stuff didn't really appeal, and I didn't come back to them for quite a while. 

I've long enjoyed Peter Gabriel's solo stuff, and eventually curiosity got the better of me and I started to explore.  I still haven't filled in all of the early albums; greatly enjoyed When the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway.  What, in your expert opinions, is the best PG-era album?

I never have liked their "pop" albums. In fact, I found when they turned their backs on their progressive roots it was pretty distasteful, but I realize the guys had to make some big money. It wasn't about the music anymore. As for my favorite Gabriel era album, I like Foxtrot the most. Nursery Cryme, Selling England By The Pound, and The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway were all very good, but I have a soft spot for Foxtrot and it's one of those albums where each time I come back to it I enjoy even better than the last time. It never grows old. It's a solid album all the way through. Watcher of the Skies and Supper's Ready are just something else. Remarkable especially given the time they were written.

When I was a kid, I loved this stuff. I went back and revisited Foxtrot and a couple of others, and I can't imagine wat I was thinking. It's formless, pretentious and downright goofy. Kitsch. Oddly enough, I find Bootsy Collins and a lot of disco much better than progressive rock, but I turned my nose up at it at the time.

Quote from: bigshot on July 12, 2012, 06:55:09 PM
When I was a kid, I loved this stuff. I went back and revisited Foxtrot and a couple of others, and I can't imagine wat I was thinking. It's formless, pretentious and downright goofy. Kitsch. Oddly enough, I find Bootsy Collins and a lot of disco much better than progressive rock, but I turned my nose up at it at the time.

??? That's a shame. Some might consider a lot of the classical we enjoy pretentious, formless, and downright goofy, but it's okay, I'll continue to listen to what I enjoy and gives me happiness. In the end, we like what we like. Thanks for stopping by. :-\ By the way, I think it's pretty snobbish of you to turn your nose up at anything that you once enjoyed. I guess that's the difference between you and me. I can enjoy a wide array of music, but I realize that many people have a pretty narrow outlook.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2012, 07:08:26 PM
??? That's a shame. Some might consider a lot of the classical we enjoy pretentious, formless, and downright goofy, but it's okay, I'll continue to listen to what I enjoy and gives me happiness. In the end, we like what we like. Thanks for stopping by. :-\ By the way, I think it's pretty snobbish of you to turn your nose up at anything that you once enjoyed. I guess that's the difference between you and me. I can enjoy a wide array of music, but I realize that many people have a pretty narrow outlook.

I don't know that "narrow" is the best word.  There's a guy on the board who's always buying and talking about music from just the early to mid 20th century; I think of that guy as "focused". 8)

Quote from: Sammy on July 12, 2012, 07:46:04 PM
I don't know that "narrow" is the best word.  There's a guy on the board who's always buying and talking about music from just the early to mid 20th century; I think of that guy as "focused". 8)

I listen to a wide spectrum of music outside of classical. I was listening to rock (and the many sub-genres within this idiom), bluegrass, and jazz before I was even listening to classical music. I don't turn my nose up at anything I once liked. I still listen to all of this music and I'm all the better for it. Each time I return to one of these genres I have a new appreciation for it. I don't know maybe it's just a musician thing? I've been playing the guitar for 21 years now and I've always tried to immerse myself into a lot of different kinds of music. I think I even went off on a folk tangent and listened to folk music from around the world most notably the Balkans, China, England, Ireland, Japan, among other countries.

Listened to these two great albums tonight:

(http://ring.cdandlp.com/french-connection-records/photo_grande/114758962.jpg) (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0RkusCb8DQA/TNM2JfE-tAI/AAAAAAAAAS8/thvxaYapVtM/s1600/genesis.bmp)

I had remembered Foxtrot being one of the est Benesis albums. The first side was unlistenable, and Supper's Ready uas some of the funniest lyrics ever.

Quote from: bigshot on July 12, 2012, 10:14:43 PM
I had remembered Foxtrot being one of the est Benesis albums. The first side was unlistenable, and Supper's Ready uas some of the funniest lyrics ever.

Well, some bits (at the least) of the lyrics to "Supper's Ready" are near flat-out goofy, and not only the "Willow Farm" interlude.  Now, in a sense, I think you're perfectly right: "Supper's Ready" is long, but it's not one long compositional whole the way that the first movement of a Mozart piano concerto (which probably runs about as long) is . . .  "Supper's Ready" is basically on the Abbey Road side 2 model, of a bunch of bits strung together, musically, with some incidental back-references tucked in later on in the piece for good measure.  So I think Foxtrot "significant" for them because (a) Hackett is now well integrated into the ensemble, and (b) for the nerve of trying something as large-scale as "Supper's Ready." And there is lots of "stuff" in "Supper's Ready" which is mighty impressive.  On the whole, though, strikes me as rather a rough-cut album (though "Watcher of the Skies" is a strong opener IMO) . . . and there followed a process of musical digestion, I think, from which Selling England by the Pound benefits in an impressive degree of assurance.

Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2012, 06:35:40 AM
Do you find orchestral unisons squirm-inducing, too?

I'm a composer, you know, and I want to know how to push your buttons, bwa-ha-ha-ha-hah! . . . .

You knooow the kind of prog rock runs I'm talking about? Anyhow...

The thing with these types of musicians,... take McLaughlin for instance,... he's just so ridiculous that he NEEDS limitations placed on him, like playing an acoustic!! He should be forced to play with only ONE string, frankly, haha!

Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2012, 02:25:09 AM
Well, some bits (at the least) of the lyrics to "Supper's Ready" are near flat-out goofy, and not only the "Willow Farm" interlude.  Now, in a sense, I think you're perfectly right: "Supper's Ready" is long, but it's not one long compositional whole the way that the first movement of a Mozart piano concerto (which probably runs about as long) is . . .  "Supper's Ready" is basically on the Abbey Road side 2 model, of a bunch of bits strung together, musically, with some incidental back-references tucked in later on in the piece for good measure.  So I think Foxtrot "significant" for them because (a) Hackett is now well integrated into the ensemble, and (b) for the nerve of trying something as large-scale as "Supper's Ready." And there is lots of "stuff" in "Supper's Ready" which is mighty impressive.  On the whole, though, strikes me as rather a rough-cut album (though "Watcher of the Skies" is a strong opener IMO) . . . and there followed a process of musical digestion, I think, from which Selling England by the Pound benefits in an impressive degree of assurance.

I thought every piece on Foxtrot was fantastic. The songwriting became more mature, although it was a logical progression from what they developed on Nursery Cryme. The opener Musical Box is still a revelation to me. They were so far ahead of their time.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 13, 2012, 06:38:34 AM
I thought every piece on Foxtrot was fantastic.

Musically, I am inclined to agree, John (well, I can never remember “Can-Utility and the Coastliners,” somehow, where every other track on the album has a strong profile . . . and of course, the twee word-play of that very title underscores one of my points) : )

Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2012, 06:46:42 AM
Musically, I am inclined to agree, John (well, I can never remember "Can-Utility and the Coastliners," somehow, where every other track on the album has a strong profile . . . and of course, the twee word-play of that very title underscores one of my points) : )

Get 'Em Out By Friday, Time Table, Can-Utility and Coastliners, and the short classical-influenced instrumental Horizons were burned into my memory, Karl. Supper's Ready and Watcher of the Skies are truly unforgettable.

I understand the memory burn-ins ; )  I may not have benefited from that w/r/t Foxtrot, as it was some little while before I could find a copy . . . and probably I heard "Supper's Ready" on Second's Out before ever hearing the studio track. So, for me, there are ways in with the original track has always sounded second-best.

Listened to Selling England By the Pound this morning during my commute.  I liked it quite a bit on first listen, but I think it will take a few spins before I can form a fair opinion of it -- lots going on there (which is what drew me to Peter Gabriel in the first place, all those layers of textures and sounds.... good stuff)

We guard your souls for peanuts, and we guard your shops and houses for just a little more . . . .

I downloaded a Genesis album recently. Foxtrot?

Anyway, if I allowed it I could see myself getting heavily into Kate Bush.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 16, 2011, 06:30:27 AM
saw Genesis in concert in the late 80s, possibly their Invisible Touch tour.

Caught them on their Abacab tour in Montreal in th early 80's....fantastic.  Phil and Chester doin' their thing.  Found this on a fan page:

The Band
Phil Collins
Tony Banks
Mike Rutherford
Daryl Stuermer
Chester Thompson

The Setlist
Behind The Lines/Duchess
The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
Dodo/Lurker
Abacab
The Carpet Crawlers
Me And Sarah Jane
Misunderstanding
No Reply At All
Firth Of Fifth
Man On The Corner
Who Dunnit?
In The Cage/Cinema Show/Slippermen/Afterglow
Turn It On Again
Dance On A Volcano/Drum Duet/Los Endos
I Know What I Like

Are solo career posts allowed here, Karl?

A Zappa connection?

http://www.genesisfan.net/phil-collins/phil-collins-archive/chester-thompson-moving-forward-with-phil

Quote from: Bogey on July 13, 2012, 02:04:14 PM
Are solo career posts allowed here, Karl?

Why not, Bill! : )

Quote from: Bogey on July 13, 2012, 02:15:15 PM
A Zappa connection?

I've yet to follow that link; but Chester played on the marvelous One Size Fits All album.

Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2012, 02:40:07 PM
Why not, Bill! : )

Saw Phil on his No Jacket Required tour with his band The Hot Tub Club.  Great show....he did not play any Genesis that night, just solo stuff.  Listening to the Tarzan soundtrack as I type.  Great Phil drum fiffs on this one.  I am guessing not too many members here have this one, but worth the grab if you see it and enjoy Phil's solo work.  Just stay clear of the movie. ;)

I have to admit that while I generally like Genesis in both with Peter G. and without Peter G. phases (although I think there's a distinct levelling off of quality in the last couple of albums), it is Genesis which yielded the most cringe worthy song I've heard, in terms of lyrics--Illegal Alien.  I have to wonder what monstrous series of brain farts allowed this song not only to appear on the album, but to be used a video on somewhat heavy rotation on VHI/MTV, which is where I encountered it.  Whole slews of people, not merely in Genesis, but at the record label and VHI, must have lost the ability to think before that happened.

There is a bunch of stuff on the earlier albums that I probably have not heard (unless it was on the radio without knowing what song it was),  and I ought to really remedy that--but my favorite Genesis song is probably "House by the Sea" (I think that's the official title).

"Home by the Sea," in two parts. I should give that a listen on the train ride home to-night.

Quote...  I have to wonder what monstrous series of brain farts allowed this song not only to appear on the album, but to be used a video on somewhat heavy rotation on VHI/MTV, which is where I encountered it.  Whole slews of people, not merely in Genesis, but at the record label and VHI, must have lost the ability to think before that happened.

You're taking it all too hard.

The Cinema Show from Selling England By The Pound is bloody fantastic! Very underrated piece!

Quote from: Bogey on July 13, 2012, 02:59:07 PM
Saw Phil on his No Jacket Required tour with his band The Hot Tub Club.  Great show....he did not play any Genesis that night, just solo stuff.  Listening to the Tarzan soundtrack as I type.  Great Phil drum fiffs on this one.  I am guessing not too many members here have this one, but worth the grab if you see it and enjoy Phil's solo work.  Just stay clear of the movie. ;)

Most interesting, Bill!

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 13, 2012, 07:26:13 PM
The Cinema Show from Selling England By The Pound is bloody fantastic! Very underrated piece!

Great stuff!

I like Peter Gabriel and listened to the PG-era Genesis albums earlier this year for the first time - I have come to really enjoy them and they have recieved many listens despite progressive rock not really being a genre I have explored much.
My favourite album from Genesis is undoubtedly The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - I heard this one when i was a lad and it made a big impression on me then - I still really enjoy it and consider it a masterpiece.
I have to admit to liking some of Genesis Phil Collins-era albums too (I guess I should'nt be too embarrassed!) - probably my favourites from this period are Invisible Touch and And Then There Were Three..

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2012, 08:21:48 PM
I listen to a wide spectrum of music outside of classical. I was listening to rock (and the many sub-genres within this idiom), bluegrass, and jazz before I was even listening to classical music. I don't turn my nose up at anything I once liked. I still listen to all of this music and I'm all the better for it. Each time I return to one of these genres I have a new appreciation for it. I don't know maybe it's just a musician thing? I've been playing the guitar for 21 years now and I've always tried to immerse myself into a lot of different kinds of music. I think I even went off on a folk tangent and listened to folk music from around the world most notably the Balkans, China, England, Ireland, Japan, among other countries.

You're my man for all seasons.

Quote from: Sammy on July 14, 2012, 11:22:48 AM
You're my man for all seasons.

;D

Quote from: Conor71 on July 14, 2012, 10:54:11 AM
I like Peter Gabriel and listened to the PG-era Genesis albums earlier this year for the first time - I have come to really enjoy them and they have recieved many listens despite progressive rock not really being a genre I have explored much.
My favourite album from Genesis is undoubtedly The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - I heard this one when i was a lad and it made a big impression on me then - I still really enjoy it and consider it a masterpiece.
I have to admit to liking some of Genesis Phil Collins-era albums too (I guess I should'nt be too embarrassed!) - probably my favourites from this period are Invisible Touch and And Then There Were Three..

What do you think about A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering, Conor? You should definitely immerse yourself in progressive rock. There's a lot of great music waiting for you around the corner.

Quote from: Mirror Image on Today at 10:50:56 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19579.msg643903#msg643903)

What do you think about

A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering, Conor? You should definitely immerse yourself in progressive rock. There's a lot of great music waiting for you around the corner.

Hey mate, Ive not heard A Trick Of The Tail and Wind & Wuthering yet - I remember you recommending them to me before and I have been meaning to check them out for a while. I will probably download these albums in future I think! :)

Yes I've not heard much progressive Rock and it is a genre which I am interested in and may possible explore in future - I was thinking of maybe listening to some King Crimson to start with.

Quote from: Conor71 on July 14, 2012, 08:18:48 PMHey mate, Ive not heard A Trick Of The Tail and Wind & Wuthering yet - I remember you recommending them to me before and I have been meaning to check them out for a while. I will probably download these albums in future I think! :)

Yes I've not heard much progressive Rock and it is a genre which I am interested in and may possible explore in future - I was thinking of maybe listening to some King Crimson to start with.

You can probably buy those albums cheaper than you can download them for. I don't know what you're opinion of the whole owning the CD vs. downloading but these Genesis recordings are readily available and you could probably buy them in a CD store in Sydney Perth.

Quote from: Mirror Image on Today at 12:46:27 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=19579.msg643931#msg643931)

You can probably buy those albums cheaper than you can download them for. I don't know what you're opinion of the whole owning the CD vs. downloading but these Genesis recordings are readily available and you could probably buy them in a CD store in

Sydney Perth.

For Classical Music I always buy the Disc and for non-classical I will sometimes download if I want the album quickly or if its a bit cheaper. Perth is a pretty small city by American standards and we dont have many CD stores now - what the CD shops do have in stock is a bit overpriced imo and thats why I have been buying mainly online for the last few years :)

Quote from: Conor71 on July 14, 2012, 09:40:11 PMFor Classical Music I always buy the Disc and for non-classical I will sometimes download if I want the album quickly or if its a bit cheaper. Perth is a pretty small city by American standards and we dont have many CD stores now - what the CD shops do have in stock is a bit overpriced imo and thats why I have been buying mainly online for the last few years :)

Same here, Conor. Why pay for an overpriced CD that you an get so cheap online? I think the era of CD stores are coming to a close.

Lately, I've been enjoying ex-Genesis guitarist Steve Hackett's solo work. Listened to The Voyage of the Acolyte a few nights ago and I'm listening to Please Don't Touch right now. Great stuff! I think highly of Hackett for continuing to carry the progressive flag.

My guitar teacher gave me his own transcribed version of "Blood on the Rooftops" to learn several months ago.
I won't say how well I did with that.  ;)

Oddly enough, I was having one of those senior moments yesterday when I was listening to this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tAEC2vH5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and, for some reason, kept seeing the artwork for this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61E7CECZV4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Actually, there are compositional elements enough in common, that you needn't IMO fear for your brain . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2012, 11:15:35 AMThat instrumental middle to "Firth of Fifth" where Hackett brilliantly echoes Gabriel's earlier flute solo, chills every time.

This. One of the greatest guitar solos of all-time. Bone-tingling for sure, Karl. Again, as I said in an '11 post, those volume swells Hackett does just add so much to that solo.

An old friend of mine was just in Texas for a show Hackett played there, he reports that it was a fabulous show.

Quote from: karlhenning on April 01, 2014, 04:04:36 AM
An old friend of mine was just in Texas for a show Hackett played there, he reports that it was a fabulous show.

Wow, I bet. I'd love to see Hackett live.

I haven't watched this documentary yet, but I've read some commentary on the 'Steve Hackett Appreciation Society' page on FB that it's quite good:

https://www.youtube.com/v/ft7gE1k2ic0#t=425

I heard somewhere that only fundamentalists think the first 12 Genesis albums are not a myth

Quote from: bwv 1080 on April 02, 2014, 07:02:51 PM
I heard somewhere that only fundamentalists think the first 12 Genesis albums are not a myth

Ummm...okay?

On a Genesis-related note: I have immensely enjoyed the new remasters of Hackett's first four albums (Voyage of the Acolyte through Defector). It seems more presence has been added and there's greater instrument separation. This is especially beneficial to Voyage of the Acolyte whose sound on the original CD release seemed a bit muffled to me. I think EMI did a great job here. Also, all of the releases have been given packaging and art updates. Cleaner pictures and it's nice EMI left the original artwork intact.

Quote from: bwv 1080 on April 02, 2014, 07:02:51 PM
I heard somewhere that only fundamentalists think the first 12 Genesis albums are not a myth

Oh, Noah, now you've undone the floodgates . . . .

Maybe Gabriel's Here Comes the Flood was a bit of biblical exegesis? Surely when we can date the editors we have reached historical times. Supper's Ready though -- that's just a story used to scare children.

Rivers of blood full of frogs, lice, and swarms of flies and locusts sound much more fun than hearing Phil Collins sing.

Quote from: North Star on April 03, 2014, 05:04:11 AM
Rivers of blood full of frogs, lice, and swarms of flies and locusts sound much more fun than hearing Phil Collins sing.

Actually, I thought Collins did a great job on A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering. It took a lot of courage for him to come out from behind the drum kit. I remember hearing about how Genesis auditioned a hundred vocalists and still couldn't find anyone and Collins jokingly said "Well, let me give it a go." And that was that. Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford looked at each other and said they found their vocalist.

Quote from: North Star on April 03, 2014, 05:04:11 AM
Rivers of blood full of frogs, lice, and swarms of flies and locusts sound much more fun than hearing Phil Collins sing.

Take a look at me now . . . .

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 16, 2011, 06:55:10 AM
Well, let me put it this way:  I have yet to hear a song involving Peter Gabriel which I did not find interesting to listen to, even if ultimately I can't say I actually liked it.  Whereas I would be hard pressed to identify a song involving Phil Collins of which I can say the same, even though I like most of the Collins era songs in an easy listening--Andre Rieu sort of way.

But are you forgetting A Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering? Perhaps the greatest the work Collins has ever done. These two albums still had that progressive Genesis feel to them but they seemed to have gotten much tighter as a group prior to Gabriel's leaving. I think A Trick of the Tail was one of the most important recordings the band made because it proved that Genesis didn't have to rely on him any longer. I absolute love, and adore, those Gabriel albums, but I was greatly surprised by how stronger the band got musically even though they lost such an important member. Unfortunately, when Hackett left, I felt that he took a piece of the band with him. Hackett, of course, had no interest in radio play or hit singles, so it was better that he left anyway. ...And Then There Were Three had some good moments, but I think overall it was disappointing and the band went even further into that pop direction, so probably after ...And Then There Were Three is when I tuned them out. Thankfully, Hackett and Gabriel continued to do interesting things.

For anyone interested, I wrote a rather short review of the Genesis 1970-1975 box set here:

http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Box-Set-1970-1975-Disc/product-reviews/B001EO2UJK/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#RM9XZOAVCR5JW

Seconds Out anyone?
[asin]B000024EXY[/asin]

MI, I have not seen you mention this one and yet it falls right within the time frame of Gabriel's departure from the group and the recording of A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering.  I've always loved this live album (the film too).  Collins really steps up here imo.

I prefer this excellent live album to Three Sides Live by a wide margin.

Quote from: Mirror Image on April 14, 2014, 06:33:09 PM
For anyone interested, I wrote a rather short review of the Genesis 1970-1975 box set here:

http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Box-Set-1970-1975-Disc/product-reviews/B001EO2UJK/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#RM9XZOAVCR5JW

Nice.  I've found all the remixes in the boxes wonderfully vivid.

Quote from: HIPster on April 18, 2014, 07:23:04 AM
I prefer this excellent live album to Three Sides Live by a wide margin.

I remember buying Three Sides Live when it was first released, but I do not remember much caring for it . . . .

Quote from: HIPster on April 18, 2014, 07:23:04 AM
Seconds Out anyone?
[asin]B000024EXY[/asin]

MI, I have not seen you mention this one and yet it falls right within the time frame of Gabriel's departure from the group and the recording of A Trick of the Tail and Wind and Wuthering.  I've always loved this live album (the film too).  Collins really steps up here imo.

I prefer this excellent live album to Three Sides Live by a wide margin.

Ah, yes Seconds Out is a fine live album and possibly their greatest as far as live records go. I enjoyed Genesis Live as well (w/ Gabriel). I'd like to see if I can get a recent remaster of this one. I'll probably go ahead and get ...And Then There Were Three and Duke as well as both of these discs contain some proggy moments.

Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2014, 07:27:02 AM
Nice.  I've found all the remixes in the boxes wonderfully vivid.

:) Me too! I've read many conflicting reviews before I plunked down the money for the 1970-1975 box set. Some reviewers were praising the new remixes while others were basically condemning Nick Davis. I've done many comparisons with the 'Definitive Remasters' with these new ones and I'm finding myself preferring the new ones. They sound much more alive on these remixes.

Mr Hackett is not pleased. (http://ultimateclassicrock.com/steve-hackett-genesis-documentary/)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2014, 10:05:38 AM
Mr Hackett is not pleased. (http://ultimateclassicrock.com/steve-hackett-genesis-documentary/)

As he should be. Not only is Hackett's solo career not mentioned, but they didn't mention anything about Anthony Phillips' solo career either. Also, Wind & Wuthering was not even mentioned and this is Banks' favorite Genesis album. For a documentary that leans towards Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford, it's surprising to see that this album received no mention whatsoever. I thought the production was well-done, but the content was seriously lacking.

I just bought my first Genesis album (second-hand) called 'Selling England by the Pound' recommended to me by someone in a second-hand record shop. Haven't played it yet.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 01, 2017, 10:13:04 PM
I just bought my first Genesis album (second-hand) called 'Selling England by the Pound' recommended to me by someone in a second-hand record shop. Haven't played it yet.

Curious timing, Jeffrey!  I have just been listening to this in the car yesterday and today (and it must be the first I have listened to the album in, oh, maybe two years).  Will be very interested in your report!

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 01, 2017, 07:34:13 PM
As he should be. Not only is Hackett's solo career not mentioned, but they didn't mention anything about Anthony Phillips' solo career either. Also, Wind & Wuthering was not even mentioned and this is Banks' favorite Genesis album. For a documentary that leans towards Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford, it's surprising to see that this album received no mention whatsoever. I thought the production was well-done, but the content was seriously lacking.

Separately, I am absolutely wowed by the remastering of Selling England by the Pound.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 01, 2017, 10:13:04 PM
I just bought my first Genesis album (second-hand) called 'Selling England by the Pound' recommended to me by someone in a second-hand record shop. Haven't played it yet.

Awesome, Jeffrey! Please tell me it's the newer 2007 (?) remix/remaster of the album. What a glorious album that is. There's one piece I don't care much for on that otherwise solid album and it's The Battle of Epping Forest. My problem with it stems from the lack of instrumental interplay and sections that are found in their other pieces of the same kind of duration. I just felt the material doesn't sustain it's length. Now, The Cinema Show, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, and Firth of Fifth, on the other hand, are musical gold. Enjoy and please come back here and share your thoughts.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 02, 2017, 03:39:32 AM
Separately, I am absolutely wowed by the remastering of Selling England by the Pound.

Not only is it a remaster, but the album has been remixed as well with the band members' assistance and, yes, it sounds remarkably good.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2017, 07:27:24 AM
Awesome, Jeffrey! Please tell me it’s the newer 2007 (?) remix/remaster of the album. What a glorious album that is. There’s one piece I don’t care much for on that otherwise solid album and it’s The Battle of Epping Forest. My problem with it stems from the lack of instrumental interplay and sections that are found in their other pieces of the same kind of duration. I just felt the material doesn’t sustain it’s length.

OTOH, the elegiac epilogue, "After the Ordeal," is one of my very favorite tracks.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 02, 2017, 07:42:46 AM


OTOH, the elegiac epilogue, "After the Ordeal," is one of my very favorite tracks.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Indeed it is, Karl. 8)

What I particularly love about The Cinema Show from Selling England by the Pound is the extensive improv of keyboardist Tony Banks. On previous albums, we haven't really heard him to much extended soloing, so this was a real treat. The melodic invention of Banks is really something else.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 02, 2017, 07:27:24 AM
Awesome, Jeffrey! Please tell me it's the newer 2007 (?) remix/remaster of the album. What a glorious album that is. There's one piece I don't care much for on that otherwise solid album and it's The Battle of Epping Forest. My problem with it stems from the lack of instrumental interplay and sections that are found in their other pieces of the same kind of duration. I just felt the material doesn't sustain it's length. Now, The Cinema Show, Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, and Firth of Fifth, on the other hand, are musical gold. Enjoy and please come back here and share your thoughts.

Will do John,
I'll play it in the car today - although I bet it's an older version.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 11:25:59 PM
Will do John,
I'll play it in the car today - although I bet it's an older version.

No harm, that's the form in which we came first to love the album  :)

Quote from: vandermolen on May 02, 2017, 11:25:59 PM
Will do John,
I'll play it in the car today - although I bet it's an older version.

That's perfectly fine. It's the music I hope you enjoy the most. If you do like the music, then I can only urge you to buy the new remix/remaster of the album. As Karl said, it's amazing.

I'm enjoying 'Selling England by the Pound' although I'm only two-thirds of the way through it. Oddly enough it was recommended to me by the proprietor of a second-hand record shop following a discussion about Vaughan Williams although I doubt whether Ralph would have appreciated it! Of course he died in 1958 before the pop music explosion in the UK. However I do recall with amusement an interview with Sir William Walton in which, when asked about his views on pop music,  replied, in a very posh upper-class English accent: 'Well, I don't like The Whooooo'.
As I thought my copy of the Genesis album is a non-digital version from 1985. Why do I need the remastered version? I'm tempted to get it as I have very much enjoyed what I've heard so far.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 04, 2017, 09:52:16 PM
I'm enjoying 'Selling England by the Pound' although I'm only two-thirds of the way through it. Oddly enough it was recommended to me by the proprietor of a second-hand record shop following a discussion about Vaughan Williams although I doubt whether Ralph would have appreciated it! Of course he died in 1958 before the pop music explosion in the UK. However I do recall with amusement an interview with Sir William Walton in which, when asked about his views on pop music,  replied, in a very posh upper-class English accent: 'Well, I don't like The Whooooo'.
As I thought my copy of the Genesis album is a non-digital version from 1985. Why do I need the remastered version? I'm tempted to get it as I have very much enjoyed what I've heard so far.

Glad you're enjoying Selling England by the Pound so far, Jeffrey. Yeah, I don't think RVW would like Genesis' music too much, but you never know! I think it's important to remember that while Genesis are indeed classified as a 'pop band,' they're earlier work (which is their best work IMHO) doesn't aim to please people who looking for dumbed down, three-chord rock music. They're approach, as you've probably heard so far, is far more complicated and the arrangements are quite intricate. I would say get the newest 2007 remix/remaster, because a lot of has been cleaned up from the original tape and since it has also been completely remixed as well, we get to hear even greater separation between the instruments. Also, Hackett's guitar work, which has always been kind of low in the overall mix sounds as if a veil has been lifted off. These new remix/remasters really blew me away.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 04, 2017, 11:09:35 PM
Glad you're enjoying Selling England by the Pound so far, Jeffrey. Yeah, I don't think RVW would like Genesis' music too much, but you never know! I think it's important to remember that while Genesis are indeed classified as a 'pop band,' they're earlier work (which is their best work IMHO) doesn't aim to please people who looking for dumbed down, three-chord rock music. They're approach, as you've probably heard so far, is far more complicated and the arrangements are quite intricate. I would say get the newest 2007 remix/remaster, because a lot of has been cleaned up from the original tape and since it has also been completely remixed as well, we get to hear even greater separation between the instruments. Also, Hackett's guitar work, which has always been kind of low in the overall mix sounds as if a veil has been lifted off. These new remix/remasters really blew me away.

VMT (very many thanks) John, that is really helpful.  :)

In revisiting ... And Then There Were Three..., I'm experiencing polar opposites. There are wonderful things I had forgotten about, because I hadn't listened to the album in decades (such as the marvelously moving chorus in "Undertow," and the surprisingly successful "Many Too Many") and several IMO sub-par songs which, well, I was perfectly content to have forgotten (YMMV, but for me, "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Burning Rope," "The Lady Lies," e.g.).

All that said, "Follow You, Follow Me" is sheer magic.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:35:08 AM
VMT (very many thanks) John, that is really helpful.  :)

My pleasure, Jeffrey. 8)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2017, 02:40:40 AM
In revisiting ... And Then There Were Three..., I'm experiencing polar opposites. There are wonderful things I had forgotten about, because I hadn't listened to the album in decades (such as the marvelously moving chorus in "Undertow," and the surprisingly successful "Many Too Many") and several IMO sub-par songs which, well, I was perfectly content to have forgotten (YMMV, but for me, "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Burning Rope," "The Lady Lies," e.g.).

All that said, "Follow You, Follow Me" is sheer magic.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

... And Then There Were Three... is a decent album. Down And Out, Undertow, and Deep in the Motherlode are my favorites from that album. I always had problems with all of the other songs and find them to be forgettable (if I can apply such an adjective to a once great progressive rock band). Follow You, Follow Me is a good pop song, though. For me, after Hackett left, a lot of the tension and lyricism that made the albums he played on so enthralling is gone. They truly became a pop rock band after Hackett's departure even though there are still some proggy bits on other albums.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2017, 05:28:06 AM
My pleasure, Jeffrey. 8)

I've enjoyed the whole album now. Definitely want to listen again. Interestingly on Amazon UK there is a discussion about the CD and some say 'hang on to the 1985 CD release' but I'm still tempted to go for the digital remastering.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 09:23:04 AM
I've enjoyed the whole album now. Definitely want to listen again. Interestingly on Amazon UK there is a discussion about the CD and some say 'hang on to the 1985 CD release' but I'm still tempted to go for the digital remastering.

I'm actually going to respectfully disagree with John and Karl above about the remixes (which is far more radical of a change than a mere remastering), and agree with those urging folks to hang onto the earliest CD masterings. As always, these things depend on personal tastes. Basically, the early (1980s) CD masterings are relatively straightforward presentations of the original mixes, which I enjoy greatly. They are warm and organic sounding, with lots of atmosphere. Some of the US versions were a bit too trebly, but the US Selling England luckily didn't suffer from that.. As a recording, Selling England gave up some of the churchy atmosphere of the band's earlier material in exchange for a more clean and clear production style (for example, replacing mellotrons and organs with moogs, and having fewer 12-string guitars and mysterious backing vocals); nevertheless, it still has a remarkably warm, analogue sound, with a particularly rich midrange (moog and guitar solos positively glow). The best way to experience it is on original UK vinyl mastered by George Peckham, IMHO, but as that is somewhat rare and pricey, those first CD pressings come reasonably close. The first round of CD remastering in the '90s produced what were called the "Definitive Edition" remasters. They aren't terrible, but use typical remastering methods of the period, including digital noise reduction and digital dynamic range compression. Aside from being possibly more easy to find, there's almost no reason to get these over the original CD masterings.

As to the most recent versions, they are complete remixes, and rather radical ones. A lot of folks love them, usually citing increased clarity. They certainly do offer that, but at a great cost, IMHO. First, they use even more dynamic range compression and smiley-face EQ (jacking up the bass and treble and hollowing out the midrange) then even the Definitive Edition remasters. (The worst offenders are the middle period [1976-1981] remixes, which are so compressed and screechy as to be nearly unlistenable, IMHO). Moreover, the remixing tends to focus on bringing the vocals and drums to the foreground, and deemphasizing the atmospheric keyboard and backing vocal layering, making the '70s albums sound more clinical, like they were recorded instead in the late '80s. If you like that, the remixes are the way to go. If, like me, you actually enjoy the more atmospheric '70s layered mixing style, the remixes are kind of horrifying. That said, the Selling England one is far from the worst offender, but since the original mix is so gorgeous, why mess with it?

Just my 2 cents. I'm glad you're enjoying the album, in whatever mix or mastering you end up preferring!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 05, 2017, 02:40:40 AM
In revisiting ... And Then There Were Three..., I'm experiencing polar opposites. There are wonderful things I had forgotten about, because I hadn't listened to the album in decades (such as the marvelously moving chorus in "Undertow," and the surprisingly successful "Many Too Many") and several IMO sub-par songs which, well, I was perfectly content to have forgotten (YMMV, but for me, "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Burning Rope," "The Lady Lies," e.g.).

All that said, "Follow You, Follow Me" is sheer magic.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I enjoy this album more than most Genesis fans seem to, though I understand why they find it disappointing. I too love "Undertow," as well as the glorious "Snowbound." Unlike you, I think "Burning Rope" is great as well, along with "Down and Out."  I'm less enamored with the more gimmicky tracks like "Ballad of Big," "Scenes from a Night's Dream," "Say It's All Right, Joe," etc. I very much miss Hackett's presence, and it would have been nice if Banks had used a wider variety of keyboard sounds; still, to me, this is the last Genesis album where they have that atmospheric folk/classical emphasis (traditionally their main calling card) to any significant degree, though I enjoy random individual tracks from their later albums.

Quote from: NorthNYMark on May 05, 2017, 11:31:22 AM
I'm actually going to respectfully disagree with John and Karl above about the remixes (which is far more radical of a change than a mere remastering), and agree with those urging folks to hang onto the earliest CD masterings. As always, these things depend on personal tastes. Basically, the early (1980s) CD masterings are relatively straightforward presentations of the original mixes, which I enjoy greatly. They are warm and organic sounding, with lots of atmosphere. Some of the US versions were a bit too trebly, but the US Selling England luckily didn't suffer from that.. As a recording, Selling England gave up some of the churchy atmosphere of the band's earlier material in exchange for a more clean and clear production style (for example, replacing mellotrons and organs with moogs, and having fewer 12-string guitars and mysterious backing vocals); nevertheless, it still has a remarkably warm, analogue sound, with a particularly rich midrange (moog and guitar solos positively glow). The best way to experience it is on original UK vinyl mastered by George Peckham, IMHO, but as that is somewhat rare and pricey, those first CD pressings come reasonably close. The first round of CD remastering in the '90s produced what were called the "Definitive Edition" remasters. They aren't terrible, but use typical remastering methods of the period, including digital noise reduction and digital dynamic range compression. Aside from being possibly more easy to find, there's almost no reason to get these over the original CD masterings.

As to the most recent versions, they are complete remixes, and rather radical ones. A lot of folks love them, usually citing increased clarity. They certainly do offer that, but at a great cost, IMHO. First, they use even more dynamic range compression and smiley-face EQ (jacking up the bass and treble and hollowing out the midrange) then even the Definitive Edition remasters. (The worst offenders are the middle period [1976-1981] remixes, which are so compressed and screechy as to be nearly unlistenable, IMHO). Moreover, the remixing tends to focus on bringing the vocals and drums to the foreground, and deemphasizing the atmospheric keyboard and backing vocal layering, making the '70s albums sound more clinical, like they were recorded instead in the late '80s. If you like that, the remixes are the way to go. If, like me, you actually enjoy the more atmospheric '70s layered mixing style, the remixes are kind of horrifying. That said, the Selling England one is far from the worst offender, but since the original mix is so gorgeous, why mess with it?

Just my 2 cents. I'm glad you're enjoying the album, in whatever mix or mastering you end up preferring!

Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

I'll vote for The Lamb Lies Down on B'way, Jeffrey, which was actually the first Genesis album I got to know.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

What Mark doesn't mention is, while there is a warmth to the original issues and I agree that they do sound very good indeed, Nursery Cryme is plagued with problems such as distortion/clipping in The Return of the Giant Hogwood and The Fountain of Salmacis. Very unfortunate. This problem even persists in the 1994 Definitive Remaster issue (my least favorite remaster of the two I own). The 2007 remixes/remasters fix this problem in these Nursery Cryme pieces. Also, the original mix of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway as well as it's 1994 remaster is quite dull sounding. Foxtrot, Selling England by the Pound, A Trick of the Tail, and Wind & Wuthering sound great in their original mixes with no remastering. Quite warm and excellent atmosphere as Mark points out. I still highly recommend the newer remixes/remasters, though. The original recordings are more difficult to track down, but I'm sure you can find them in the used market. Just be aware of the persistent problems in Nursery Cryme in original mix and 1994 remaster.

Where should you go next? Karl suggested The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and I'll have to disagree that this isn't the way to go just yet (even though The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is my favorite Genesis album). I would check out Foxtrot next.

Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Thank you very much Mark for that extremely helpful analysis. I certainly won't be giving my 1985 transfer to the charity shop even if I go ahead and get the digital remix. I can always keep one in the car and one in the house. One other question to the Genesis fans here: which album should I listen to next?

Great point about having multiple versions around for different listening situations!

I suspect if you enjoyed Selling England enough to be interested in more, you will probably enjoy most of the Gabriel-era catalog, and possibly some of the early Collins era. Their musical approach was fairly consistent from 1970's Trespass through 1976's Wind & Wuthering. As I mentioned above, Selling England marks a subtle shift (more in terms of production and arrangement than in songwriting) away from the more organic textures of what came before to a slightly more streamlined sound. Their three previous albums tend to have a more acoustic guitars, organs, and mellotrons. Of them, the earliest, Trespass, is my personal favorite, though that is a minority view among Genesis fans. It predates the arrival of Phil Collins and Steve Hackett. Hackett's predecessor (Anthony Phillips) was particularly fond (as both player and songwriter) of delicate acoustic textures, and the album has an even more churchy,  "English pastoral" feel than the others. Its closing number ("The Knife")  is somewhat unrepresentative of the album as a whole,  as it is a rocker of the sort that will done more convincingly in upcoming albums. The next album, Nursery Cryme, is the first to include Collins and Hackett. It maintains some of the delicacy of Trespass, but throws  more "rock" elements (and humor) into the mix (its mini-epic opening and closing tracks, "The Musical Box" and "Fountain of Salmacis,"  are particularly outstanding, and remain broad fan favorites). The next album, Foxtrot, is more of the same, perhaps beginning to incorporate a bit more of Collins's jazz sensibilities in some of the arrangements. It is famous, among other things, for the sidelong epic "Supper's Ready."  Selling England by the Pound came next. If you enjoy its more folky and/or pastoral elements, any of the previous albums will give you even more of that.

The album following Selling England was the double concept album The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. This carried the streamlining even further. Apparently Peter Gabriel was concerned about the band becoming overly "twee" in its evocations of children's stories, classical mythology etc., so he wanted to do a psychedelic extravaganza about a New York street tough's surreal, metamorphic journey. This album tends to divide fans, with some considering it their absolute pinnacle, and others considering it to be somewhat of a bloated misstep (I personally lean more toward the latter camp, though the album has some brilliant moments).

Gabriel left the band after that (and Hackett made a remarkably "Genesis-y" solo album called Voyage of the Acolyte). Collins (who had contributed a couple of lead and many harmony vocal performances on the earlier albums) stepped up as lead vocalist for the follow-up, A Trick of the Tail. In some ways, that album steps back from the streamlining of The Lamb, and returns to the more textured pastoralism of their earlier material, but adds a bit more fusion-y instrumental rigor as well. Odd as it is for me to say (as I generally prefer the Gabriel-era albums to those of the Collins era), it may be my single favorite Genesis album, though the other pre-Lamb Gabriel albums are all very close. (And the early CD mastering of this is legendary among rock audiophiles). The next album, Wind & Wuthering, is very similar, though not quite as consistent or inspired overall, IMHO. After that, Hackett leaves the band, and it begins morphing into the  pop behemoth it became in the '80s, for better or for worse, depending on your tastes.

If you're going to start with just one additional purchase, Foxtrot would probably make the most sense, though I personally like both Trespass and A Trick of the Tail even more. If the idea of a sidelong epic sounds over-the-top, though, it may make more sense to begin with Nursery Cryme and/or A Trick of the Tail. In some ways, A Trick is probably the closest in overall mood to Selling England, though it has a different lead vocalist and somewhat shorter songs. I suspect that you'll probably like almost any of these albums, though! Good luck exploring!  By the way, the original UK Virgin/Charisma CDs are generally considered to be the best available versions by audiophiles (at least, those like me who like a full dynamic range, don't mind a bit of tape hiss, and are sensitive to too much treble boosting). If you like a more "modern" sonic approach, though, the current remixes may be right up your alley (while the Definitive Edition remasters probably please no one in particular, though they're fine if other options are unavailable).

Sorry about the long response--it's obviously an area where my geekiness comes into full play!

A nice write-up, Mark. 8) Since Genesis are my favorite rock band (just ahead of Pink Floyd and King Crimson). I think Trespass gets dumped on a good bit for no apparent reason. It's not a favorite of mine, but will freely admit that it does have a lovely folkiness with a nice blend of classical that makes it quite alluring. Nursery Cryme, at one point, was my favorite Genesis album, but that honor has gone to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway for some time now.

Of the Collins-led albums, Wind & Wuthering remains my favorite, although I don't like All in a Mouse's Night. I think it's the worst track on the whole album. The rest of the album is pure Genesis gold. Blood on the Rooftops may be their best song post-Gabriel.

Mark mentions Steve Hackett's first solo outing Voyage of the Acolyte and this, for many people, was like a 'lost' Genesis album. I wrote a review for it on Amazon (for those interested):

The idea of Steve Hackett leaving Genesis and having a solo career was I'm sure to the dismay of many Genesis fans because, in my honest opinion, I believe he was a key ingredient to their signature style. Those quirky guitar parts and soaring solos (like in his trademark and highly lauded solo in "Firth Of Fifth" from Genesis' 1973 album "Selling England by the Pound") are without a doubt some of the highlights of progressive rock guitar in the genre's 1970s heyday. As things turned out, "Voyage of the Acolyte" was exactly what Hackett needed to release as this, in his own words, gave him the confidence to strike out on his own. What led to Hackett's departure from Genesis was that time and time again his own musical ideas were being shot down by Genesis members in favor of their own ideas. This constant onslaught of rejection led Hackett to finally quit Genesis in 1976 after recording the live album "Seconds Out." For many people, myself included, this is where I departed from the Genesis train, although "..And Then There Were Three" was an 'okay' album with a few good songs, but not substantial or 'proggy' enough for my taste as it was clear that Genesis were heading into a pop direction.

Anyway, that's enough background for now. "Voyage of the Acolyte" is considered by many to be a 'lost' Genesis album. I only partly agree with this as I think this album has more of Hackett's stamp on it than Genesis'. From the very beginning, we launch into "Ace of Wands," which is an uptempo piece and goes through a myriad of moods and styles before finally deciding where to end up. I don't mean this in a negative way of course. The piece just jumps around a lot and it's thrilling to hear. I won't go through the whole album's tracklist, but I'm not joking when I say the whole album is fantastic from start to finish. Some may find a weak moment here or there, but I can find absolutely none. I heard some people complain about Hackett's vocals on "The Hermit." Quite frankly, I like the vocals and I think they match the atmosphere of the piece.

All of the musicians are amazing. It's nice to have guest appearances by Genesis bandmates Phil Collins and Mike Ruttherford and Collins sounds especially good on "Star of Sirius". Rutherford played bass on the entire album I believe with the exception of "Star of Sirius." Also making an appearance, and on many subsequent Hackett solo albums, is his brother, John who plays flute, synthesizer, and some percussion. Other musicians include John Acock on synthesizer, Mellotron, piano, and harmonium, Sally Oldfield on vocals for the song "Shadow of the Hierophant," Robin Miller on oboe and English horn ("Star of Sirius," "The Hermit"), Nigel Warren-Green on cello ("The Hermit"), Percy Jones on bass ("A Tower Struck Down"), and John Gustafson on bass ("Star of Sirius").

This particular reissue has been remastered to perfection by Caroline Music and, for my money, is the recording to get. There will be a newer 'deluxe edition' issued with a Steven Wilson 5.1 stereo remix at some point either this year or next year, but I have found that Wilson's tinkering with the audio of the original recordings to not be sufficiently better than the previous issues in most cases and I can really do without them (as nice as the packing may be for these particular issues). They're not worth the extra money, but you can happily disagree with me and more power to you if you enjoy them.

If you're a fan of progressive rock and you love Hackett's work with Genesis, you need this album in your collection. He went on to do many other fantastic recordings, but there's nothing quite like his first.

Very nice review pf Voyage of the Acolyte, John. I too find it to be a beautiful album (and feel just as strongly about his Spectral Mornings album).

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 05, 2017, 02:08:25 PM
Of the Collins-led albums, Wind & Wuthering remains my favorite, although I don't like All in a Mouse's Night. I think it's the worst track on the whole album. The rest of the album is pure Genesis gold. Blood on the Rooftops may be their best song post-Gabriel.

I enjoy the album very much as well, and "Blood on the Rooftops" is particularly beautiful (and definitely my favorite track on the album). I think the second half of the album   (from "All in a Mouse's Night"'s instrumental coda until the ending) is an atmospheric triumph. The first half of the album, though, doesn't work for me quite as well. I prefer A Trick overall (and "Mad Mad Moon" may be my favorite single Genesis track), but can easily imagine why someone would prefer the autumnal moodiness of W & W. In any event, I think they are both somewhat underrated by many fans in relation to the Gabriel albums.

Quote from: NorthNYMark on May 05, 2017, 07:00:39 PM
Very nice review pf Voyage of the Acolyte, John. I too find it to be a beautiful album (and feel just as strongly about his Spectral Mornings album).

Yes, Spectral Mornings is a gem of an album. No doubt.

Quote from: NorthNYMark on May 05, 2017, 07:13:18 PM
I enjoy the album very much as well, and "Blood on the Rooftops" is particularly beautiful (and definitely my favorite track on the album). I think the second half of the album   (from "All in a Mouse's Night"'s instrumental coda until the ending) is an atmospheric triumph. The first half of the album, though, doesn't work for me quite as well. I prefer A Trick overall (and "Mad Mad Moon" may be my favorite single Genesis track), but can easily imagine why someone would prefer the autumnal moodiness of W & W. In any event, I think they are both somewhat underrated by many fans in relation to the Gabriel albums.

There's a lot to admire about A Trick of the Tail and I certainly can see what you hear in that album, but it has never really been a favorite. I love many pieces from that album, but it's overall mood never really hit me. I know a lot of people love A Trick of the Tail and it gets high marks from most Genesis fans.

Since this is a Genesis dedicated thread...now playing the original mix (no remaster) of my favorite post-Gabriel album:

(https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/ar0/8825bb16c376478bc7fd8b88be8b3b93)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6c/0c/31/6c0c310d9174c7f39a956c34588f969f.jpg)

(https://thegenesisarchive.co.uk/thearchive/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Genesis-1976-promo-photo-Rainbow-1826x2300.jpg)

Another critique I have for Wind & Wuthering even though it's a favorite is the duration of Your Own Special Way could have been cut down to about 3-4 minutes. It's a beautiful piece, but it just goes on a bit more than it should IMHO.

Thanks Karl and John,
I'll probably end up getting both.  ::)

Quote from: NorthNYMark on May 05, 2017, 01:53:38 PM
Great point about having multiple versions around for different listening situations!

I suspect if you enjoyed Selling England enough to be interested in more, you will probably enjoy most of the Gabriel-era catalog, and possibly some of the early Collins era. Their musical approach was fairly consistent from 1970's Trespass through 1976's Wind & Wuthering. As I mentioned above, Selling England marks a subtle shift (more in terms of production and arrangement than in songwriting) away from the more organic textures of what came before to a slightly more streamlined sound. Their three previous albums tend to have a more acoustic guitars, organs, and mellotrons. Of them, the earliest, Trespass, is my personal favorite, though that is a minority view among Genesis fans. It predates the arrival of Phil Collins and Steve Hackett. Hackett's predecessor (Anthony Phillips) was particularly fond (as both player and songwriter) of delicate acoustic textures, and the album has an even more churchy,  "English pastoral" feel than the others. Its closing number ("The Knife")  is somewhat unrepresentative of the album as a whole,  as it is a rocker of the sort that will done more convincingly in upcoming albums. The next album, Nursery Cryme, is the first to include Collins and Hackett. It maintains some of the delicacy of Trespass, but throws  more "rock" elements (and humor) into the mix (its mini-epic opening and closing tracks, "The Musical Box" and "Fountain of Salmacis,"  are particularly outstanding, and remain broad fan favorites). The next album, Foxtrot, is more of the same, perhaps beginning to incorporate a bit more of Collins's jazz sensibilities in some of the arrangements. It is famous, among other things, for the sidelong epic "Supper's Ready."  Selling England by the Pound came next. If you enjoy its more folky and/or pastoral elements, any of the previous albums will give you even more of that.

The album following Selling England was the double concept album The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. This carried the streamlining even further. Apparently Peter Gabriel was concerned about the band becoming overly "twee" in its evocations of children's stories, classical mythology etc., so he wanted to do a psychedelic extravaganza about a New York street tough's surreal, metamorphic journey. This album tends to divide fans, with some considering it their absolute pinnacle, and others considering it to be somewhat of a bloated misstep (I personally lean more toward the latter camp, though the album has some brilliant moments).

Gabriel left the band after that (and Hackett made a remarkably "Genesis-y" solo album called Voyage of the Acolyte). Collins (who had contributed a couple of lead and many harmony vocal performances on the earlier albums) stepped up as lead vocalist for the follow-up, A Trick of the Tail. In some ways, that album steps back from the streamlining of The Lamb, and returns to the more textured pastoralism of their earlier material, but adds a bit more fusion-y instrumental rigor as well. Odd as it is for me to say (as I generally prefer the Gabriel-era albums to those of the Collins era), it may be my single favorite Genesis album, though the other pre-Lamb Gabriel albums are all very close. (And the early CD mastering of this is legendary among rock audiophiles). The next album, Wind & Wuthering, is very similar, though not quite as consistent or inspired overall, IMHO. After that, Hackett leaves the band, and it begins morphing into the  pop behemoth it became in the '80s, for better or for worse, depending on your tastes.

If you're going to start with just one additional purchase, Foxtrot would probably make the most sense, though I personally like both Trespass and A Trick of the Tail even more. If the idea of a sidelong epic sounds over-the-top, though, it may make more sense to begin with Nursery Cryme and/or A Trick of the Tail. In some ways, A Trick is probably the closest in overall mood to Selling England, though it has a different lead vocalist and somewhat shorter songs. I suspect that you'll probably like almost any of these albums, though! Good luck exploring!  By the way, the original UK Virgin/Charisma CDs are generally considered to be the best available versions by audiophiles (at least, those like me who like a full dynamic range, don't mind a bit of tape hiss, and are sensitive to too much treble boosting). If you like a more "modern" sonic approach, though, the current remixes may be right up your alley (while the Definitive Edition remasters probably please no one in particular, though they're fine if other options are unavailable).

Sorry about the long response--it's obviously an area where my geekiness comes into full play!

Cheers, Mark, I very much enjoyed reading these extended thoughts.

I was insufficiently curious about Trespass back when I was first a Genesis fan, so I may never have actually listened to it before I got the 1970-75 reissue box.  So it was a most pleasant surprise, and I like it very well, although it does not displace any other favorite of mine.  It certainly does have its own tenor, setting it somewhat apart from any of the later albums.

Personally, I much prefer Nursery Cryme to Foxtrot, notwithstanding what is my general (non-fatal) quarrel with early Genesis, which is:  the preciosity of the words.  I had not really thought about the matter in quite those terms until I read your observation that The Lamb was a determined shift from the quasi-children's-lit and classical mythology;  but from my (minority, and arguably stern) vantage, the real problem with the lyrics remains with The Lamb, notwithstanding the shift in genre . . . and I think there is a sense in which Gabriel himself owned the problem with his shift later on in his career:  he was awfully effortful in making the words clever.

(We all probably do enjoy it to some degree, and I love the music, and can "set aside" the words for what they are betimes.)

In my view, Nursery Cryme, even though it was a 'rite of passage' album with the fresh recruitment of Hackett and Collins, is thoroughly successful.  Their inaugural duo, "For Absent Friends," is an exquisite intermezzo between "Musical Box" and the Triffids knock-off  8)  "Hogweed."

I don't like Foxtrot quite so much; why?  Well, I blame "Supper's Ready," I suppose, which I find (to a degree) bloated (where I do not feel that about The Lamb).  There is a lot of great stuff in there, and it is The Grand Epic to Which They Had Been Trending, and it really is both an Accomplishment, and entertaining.  For example, a very small thing:  I don't think "hey, my baby" has aged all that well.  I won't belabor the point, as it is a Fan Favorite, and I am not saying that is undeserved (and maybe, just maybe, I prefer the live version on Second's Out).  But where Nursery Cryme is, in my view, at a uniformly high level (like Selling England, again, which went one or two better) my feeling is that the follow-up is a bit mixed.

In general, and certainly among present company  ;) , I am more forgiving of the change in tone/direction of the band.  I think And Then There Were Three is actually instructive here;  although none of the songs were extended (which is also true of The Lamb) it was an album by the now-three-piece band trying to carry the torch, from one perspective.  And it is hard for this listener, at least, not to feel that "the single" stood out from the album in musical excellence, in a way that "the single" (as they joked) from Selling England did not lord it over the rest of its album.  So my read is that The Shift was a stock-taking both internal (what they felt their strengths as now-a-trio were) and external (the musical world does not remain static, the pop music world rather less so—Duke was released in Mar '80, and the reformed King Crimson released Discipline in Sep '81 . . . coincidence?)  The two Genesis concerts I have attended were the Duke and Abacab tours, so that only reinforces my perspective, probably.  I think that Duke is actually a restoration of musical self-confidence;  where the prior album is mixed at best (though with many glimpses of excellence), Duke is IMO both a thoroughly excellent album, and (slightly ironically) the album on which they brought back extended instrumental numbers; and unlike the prior album (or, for that matter, any album since) it flows from first track to last as a satisfying whole.

Quote from: NorthNYMark on May 05, 2017, 01:53:38 PM
Great point about having multiple versions around for different listening situations!

I suspect if you enjoyed Selling England enough to be interested in more, you will probably enjoy most of the Gabriel-era catalog, and possibly some of the early Collins era. Their musical approach was fairly consistent from 1970's Trespass through 1976's Wind & Wuthering. As I mentioned above, Selling England marks a subtle shift (more in terms of production and arrangement than in songwriting) away from the more organic textures of what came before to a slightly more streamlined sound. Their three previous albums tend to have a more acoustic guitars, organs, and mellotrons. Of them, the earliest, Trespass, is my personal favorite, though that is a minority view among Genesis fans. It predates the arrival of Phil Collins and Steve Hackett. Hackett's predecessor (Anthony Phillips) was particularly fond (as both player and songwriter) of delicate acoustic textures, and the album has an even more churchy,  "English pastoral" feel than the others. Its closing number ("The Knife")  is somewhat unrepresentative of the album as a whole,  as it is a rocker of the sort that will done more convincingly in upcoming albums. The next album, Nursery Cryme, is the first to include Collins and Hackett. It maintains some of the delicacy of Trespass, but throws  more "rock" elements (and humor) into the mix (its mini-epic opening and closing tracks, "The Musical Box" and "Fountain of Salmacis,"  are particularly outstanding, and remain broad fan favorites). The next album, Foxtrot, is more of the same, perhaps beginning to incorporate a bit more of Collins's jazz sensibilities in some of the arrangements. It is famous, among other things, for the sidelong epic "Supper's Ready."  Selling England by the Pound came next. If you enjoy its more folky and/or pastoral elements, any of the previous albums will give you even more of that.

The album following Selling England was the double concept album The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. This carried the streamlining even further. Apparently Peter Gabriel was concerned about the band becoming overly "twee" in its evocations of children's stories, classical mythology etc., so he wanted to do a psychedelic extravaganza about a New York street tough's surreal, metamorphic journey. This album tends to divide fans, with some considering it their absolute pinnacle, and others considering it to be somewhat of a bloated misstep (I personally lean more toward the latter camp, though the album has some brilliant moments).

Gabriel left the band after that (and Hackett made a remarkably "Genesis-y" solo album called Voyage of the Acolyte). Collins (who had contributed a couple of lead and many harmony vocal performances on the earlier albums) stepped up as lead vocalist for the follow-up, A Trick of the Tail. In some ways, that album steps back from the streamlining of The Lamb, and returns to the more textured pastoralism of their earlier material, but adds a bit more fusion-y instrumental rigor as well. Odd as it is for me to say (as I generally prefer the Gabriel-era albums to those of the Collins era), it may be my single favorite Genesis album, though the other pre-Lamb Gabriel albums are all very close. (And the early CD mastering of this is legendary among rock audiophiles). The next album, Wind & Wuthering, is very similar, though not quite as consistent or inspired overall, IMHO. After that, Hackett leaves the band, and it begins morphing into the  pop behemoth it became in the '80s, for better or for worse, depending on your tastes.

If you're going to start with just one additional purchase, Foxtrot would probably make the most sense, though I personally like both Trespass and A Trick of the Tail even more. If the idea of a sidelong epic sounds over-the-top, though, it may make more sense to begin with Nursery Cryme and/or A Trick of the Tail. In some ways, A Trick is probably the closest in overall mood to Selling England, though it has a different lead vocalist and somewhat shorter songs. I suspect that you'll probably like almost any of these albums, though! Good luck exploring!  By the way, the original UK Virgin/Charisma CDs are generally considered to be the best available versions by audiophiles (at least, those like me who like a full dynamic range, don't mind a bit of tape hiss, and are sensitive to too much treble boosting). If you like a more "modern" sonic approach, though, the current remixes may be right up your alley (while the Definitive Edition remasters probably please no one in particular, though they're fine if other options are unavailable).

Sorry about the long response--it's obviously an area where my geekiness comes into full play!

Somehow I managed to miss this post!  ::) very sorry as you make such helpful comments which I shall certainly take on board. Thanks so much for going to so much trouble to advise me on this - more enthusiasm than geekiness I think. I do have some Peter Gabriel on LP and 'So' on LP and CD. I'm also sure that at some point I owned 'Voyage of the Acolyte' it certainly rings a bell. I know they are very populist but I like some Phil Collins too and have a couple of Naxos CDs of music by Tony Banks which I haven't properly listened to yet. So thanks again NY Mark for the really helpful advice and thanks, as always to John and Karl too.
:)

You're most welcome, Jeffrey.

Thanks for the kind words, Jeffrey! I'll be curious to hear what you think of whatever you hear next. And thanks, Karl, for your very thoughtful contribution. I will respond to it in more depth when I have a bit more time!

Now playing the original mix of this album:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71oMzzk%2BgWL._SL1200_.jpg)

(https://thegenesisarchive.co.uk/thearchive/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Gen-trick-press-photo-76-1.jpg)

This is a damn good sounding album, so, IMHO, it never needed to be remastered (or remixed for that matter) and I feel the same way about Wind & Wuthering. Both of these albums are strong musically, but, of course, Wind & Wuthering continues to be my favorite post-Gabriel album. A Trick of the Tail does have strong points --- Dance On A Volcano, Entangled, Squonk, Mad Man Moon, and Ripples. I found the remaining pieces: Robbery, Assault, & Battery, A Trick of the Tail, and Los Endos to be the weak links in an otherwise solid album.

As a teenager I was a lot into Invisible Touch album. One of my classmates in school had it on C-cassette and he allowed us to listen to it with his walkman. This was mid 80's and access to music was like this, no Youtube!  ;D I liked the album and eventually bought it on vinyl and a few years back I bough it on CD used very cheap. I also picked up We Can't Dance album. I have tried other Genesis albums, but I don't care much about them. That "pop" era those albums represents work best for me. Genesis seems too simple for prog rock and for that kind of music my choice is King Crimson. But Invisible Touch album for me is a pop gem from mid 80s.  :)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 08, 2017, 10:06:26 PM
As a teenager I was a lot into Invisible Touch album. One of my classmates in school had it on C-cassette and he allowed us to listen to it with his walkman. This was mid 80's and access to music was like this, no Youtube!  ;D I liked the album and eventually bought it on vinyl and a few years back I bough it on CD used very cheap. I also picked up We Can't Dance album. I have tried other Genesis albums, but I don't care much about them. That "pop" era those albums represents work best for me. Genesis seems too simple for prog rock and for that kind of music my choice is King Crimson. But Invisible Touch album for me is a pop gem from mid 80s.  :)

To the bolded text, what in the world are you talking about? Did you forget to take your meds again? To claim, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway or the 20-minute epic: Supper's Ready, is 'too simple' shows me you haven't bothered listening to the music at all.

And, as always, thanks for stopping by to share that you don't like Genesis' progressive rock albums. Now, please, exit stage left.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 08, 2017, 10:06:26 PM
As a teenager I was a lot into Invisible Touch album. One of my classmates in school had it on C-cassette and he allowed us to listen to it with his walkman. This was mid 80's and access to music was like this, no Youtube!  ;D I liked the album and eventually bought it on vinyl and a few years back I bough it on CD used very cheap. I also picked up We Can't Dance album. I have tried other Genesis albums, but I don't care much about them. That "pop" era those albums represents work best for me. Genesis seems too simple for prog rock and for that kind of music my choice is King Crimson. But Invisible Touch album for me is a pop gem from mid 80s.  :)

I must admit that Invisible Touch is a fine album, which is to say, a much better album than I may have been apt to give it credit for.  I may nevertheless prefer the flowing unity of Duke, and it also has personal sentiment on its side, for me.

And I see your point viz. King Crimson, which (come to think of it) I likewise prefer to Gabriel-era Genesis.  De gustibus and all that, there is nothing wrong with preferring the "hit machine" incarnation of Genesis.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2017, 07:37:19 AM
To claim, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway or the 20-minute epic: Supper's Ready, is 'too simple' shows me you haven't bothered listening to the music at all.

And, as always, thanks for stopping by to share that you don't like Genesis' progressive rock albums. Now, please, exit stage left.

I may check these again, thanks. Anyway, you are hard to please man. One has to almost become you (your mirror image!) to get your acceptance.  :P

Quote from: 71 dB on May 09, 2017, 10:28:31 AM
One has to almost become you (your mirror image!) to get your acceptance.  :P

Nicely played!

Ok, listened to some Genesis on Spotify:

"The Lamb Lies Down"
Sorry, didn't care about this.

"Supper's Ready"
Wow, this was good! The best 70's Genesis track I have heard. The first 10 minutes and the last 4 minutes great! In the middle not so great all the time, 10-14 minutes part weak. I really liked the flute and acoustic guitar. This is the "Lizard" track of Genesis.  :)

I think years ago I listened to the first 2 albums and then jumped to late 70's albums so I must have skipped Foxtrot.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2017, 10:29:46 AM
Nicely played!

0:)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 09, 2017, 09:13:47 AM
I must admit that Invisible Touch is a fine album, which is to say, a much better album than I may have been apt to give it credit for.  I may nevertheless prefer the flowing unity of Duke, and it also has personal sentiment on its side, for me.

And I see your point viz. King Crimson, which (come to think of it) I likewise prefer to Gabriel-era Genesis.  De gustibus and all that, there is nothing wrong with preferring the "hit machine" incarnation of Genesis.

Let me check out Duke again Karl (not today, my daily Genesis quota if full  ;D ). I believe I have heard it once.

I admit I haven't been listening to pre-"Invisible Touch" -Genesis too much, but what I have heard implicates to me that the band operates at complexity level more suitable for pop hits than prog rock. The earlier Genesis sound to me brutal in a way that sounds overlap each other in a chaotic noisy manner (in order to hide the simplicity?) as if there was lack of accuracy in the playing/singing or/and composition. The "hit machine" incarnation of Genesis (nice expression!) sounds more carefully executed, more precise/planned out structurally and the music of Genesis is easily complex enough for pop hits. So, it works, for me at least.

-----

Anyone familiar with Henry Cow? I'm a bit interested to explore them, but their albums aren't that cheap... ...and Spotify has only a few tracks by them. :P Gentle Giant is another group I should perhaps explore...

Quote from: 71 dB on May 09, 2017, 10:28:31 AM
I may check these again, thanks. Anyway, you are hard to please man. One has to almost become you (your mirror image!) to get your acceptance.  :P

Anyone that disagrees with you is 'hard to please'? You compared Genesis and King Crimson, which, IMHO, isn't too smart of a comparison considering both bands strove for different musical ideals. My point was Genesis weren't a 'simple' band in comparison to King Crimson. They wrote a lot of complex music, but this is neither here nor there. Genesis were an incredibly influential band and, while I don't like the direction they went in post-Hackett, I still consider them one of the finest in their genre.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2017, 06:54:23 PM
Anyone that disagrees with you is 'hard to please'?

I don't mind if people disagree. I used to mind years ago, but I think I have matured in this sense. If you think Genesis is the best band ever that's your business and I don't mind. Genesis is a very popular band, so it's not even a surprise. You are the one pointing out how other people are wrong: I have the wrong Nielsen cycle, I am wrong about the simplicity of Genesis etc. Why can't you just read my opinions (or ignore them if you want) and move on?

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2017, 06:54:23 PMYou compared Genesis and King Crimson, which, IMHO, isn't too smart of a comparison considering both bands strove for different musical ideals. My point was Genesis weren't a 'simple' band in comparison to King Crimson. They wrote a lot of complex music, but this is neither here nor there. Genesis were an incredibly influential band and, while I don't like the direction they went in post-Hackett, I still consider them one of the finest in their genre.

I have to compare things to know what to do in life. Yes*, Genesis and King Crimson strove for different musical ideals, but they are both music we can buy and listen to, use our time and money on.

I haven't seen Genesis work on their music and I am not a musician to know all details of composition, but to my ears the music of Genesis doesn't sound very complex and that is what matters to me as a listener. I listen to simple music a lot and I enjoy it for it's "direct impact" , but in my opinion simplicity works best in commercial popular music and I prefer some complexity in prog rock. I hear such complexity in King Crimson and in some other bands such as Henry Cow. But that's me and my ears. You are entitled to disagree.

As for the influence, despite of being a lot less succesful band commercially (because of their style and level of sophistication which frankly requires some gray matter between the ears) I believe King Crimson has been very influential to musicians too.

* This world has here accidentally double meaning: "Affirmative" and "another well-known band".   8)

71 dB, you should listen to some Ferneyhough if you want complexity.  8)

Quote from: North Star on May 10, 2017, 01:37:28 AM
71 dB, you should listen to some Ferneyhough if you want complexity.  8)

Perhaps. I know the name and reputation. I'm listening to a chamber work "Flurries" as I don't know where to start. It is complex and I not sure if the complexity has a purpose or not. One needs to listen more and maybe be smarter for this music?

Each music style requires a certain "operating level" of complexity to work for me. As I said, I listen to simple music too (e.g. pop and new age). Live is richer when you switch between "smart" and "stupid" activities and at least in my case it is good for mental health.

Complexity should not be about making things deliberably difficult for listeners for the sake of being complex, but about not holding back your creativity and natural flow of music in order to force your music into some boxes.

Quote from: 71 dB on May 10, 2017, 01:29:10 AM
I don't mind if people disagree. I used to mind years ago, but I think I have matured in this sense. If you think Genesis is the best band ever that's your business and I don't mind. Genesis is a very popular band, so it's not even a surprise. You are the one pointing out how other people are wrong: I have the wrong Nielsen cycle, I am wrong about the simplicity of Genesis etc. Why can't you just read my opinions (or ignore them if you want) and move on?

I have to compare things to know what to do in life. Yes*, Genesis and King Crimson strove for different musical ideals, but they are both music we can buy and listen to, use our time and money on.

I haven't seen Genesis work on their music and I am not a musician to know all details of composition, but to my ears the music of Genesis doesn't sound very complex and that is what matters to me as a listener. I listen to simple music a lot and I enjoy it for it's "direct impact" , but in my opinion simplicity works best in commercial popular music and I prefer some complexity in prog rock. I hear such complexity in King Crimson and in some other bands such as Henry Cow. But that's me and my ears. You are entitled to disagree.

As for the influence, despite of being a lot less succesful band commercially (because of their style and level of sophistication which frankly requires some gray matter between the ears) I believe King Crimson has been very influential to musicians too.

* This world has here accidentally double meaning: "Affirmative" and "another well-known band".   8)

How about you actually read what I wrote about Genesis, 71 dB? I said Genesis were one of the greatest rock bands. I didn't say they were #1. That kind of claim would be ridiculous, especially since there's so many other great bands that I love and admire. What I feel like is you can dish it all day but you can't take it. Different opinions make the world go around. It shouldn't surprise you one bit that someone has the courage to tell you that they disagree with you, but I'm thinking now that I should have just nodded my head along with yours since YOU'RE the one giving crap about not agreeing with your opinion. So if there's anyone that should drop anything, it's you.

Now...back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 10, 2017, 07:24:48 AM
How about you actually read what I wrote about Genesis, 71 dB? I said Genesis were one of the greatest rock bands. I didn't say they were #1. That kind of claim would be ridiculous, especially since there's so many other great bands that I love and admire. What I feel like is you can dish it all day but you can't take it. Different opinions make the world go around. It shouldn't surprise you one bit that someone has the courage to tell you that they disagree with you, but I'm thinking now that I should have just nodded my head along with yours since YOU'RE the one giving crap about not agreeing with your opinion. So if there's anyone that should drop anything, it's you.

Now...back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I apologize if I have missinterpreted your messages. Again, I don't mind if we disagree.  0:)

I wonder how Jeffrey is getting on with Genesis? Any news? Any favorite pieces? Let us know! :)

Quote from: 71 dB on May 10, 2017, 02:26:34 AM
Perhaps. I know the name and reputation. I'm listening to a chamber work "Flurries" as I don't know where to start. It is complex and I not sure if the complexity has a purpose or not. One needs to listen more and maybe be smarter for this music?

Each music style requires a certain "operating level" of complexity to work for me. As I said, I listen to simple music too (e.g. pop and new age). Live is richer when you switch between "smart" and "stupid" activities and at least in my case it is good for mental health.

Complexity should not be about making things deliberably difficult for listeners for the sake of being complex, but about not holding back your creativity and natural flow of music in order to force your music into some boxes.

Start by just listening and letting go of preconceptions.  The music is a series of gestures that enfold over time - just listen to them.  If you like it fine, if not go on to something else.  The techniques may be complicated and the demands on the performer extreme, but attention is the only demand on the listener

Quote from: bwv 1080 on May 11, 2017, 06:47:20 PM
Start by just listening and letting go of preconceptions.  The music is a series of gestures that enfold over time - just listen to them.  If you like it fine, if not go on to something else.  The techniques may be complicated and the demands on the performer extreme, but attention is the only demand on the listener

What I heard from from Ferneyhough, about 20-25 minutes wasn't much to my liking. I liked the complexity level, but pretty much nothing made any sense to me. Maybe complex music for idiots is my cup of tea?  8)

And think about how BF could improve much of Genesis's catalog

Was it you or was it me?

This video is worth it's weight in gold:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RtgIbmyIvyA

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 15, 2017, 07:48:09 PM
This video is worth it's weight in gold:

https://www.youtube.com/v/RtgIbmyIvyA

What's interesting about this video is that the great Bill Bruford is on drums. I believe he toured with them for six months (?) during the Trick of the Tail tour. I kind of wished Bruford had played more with them as the brought an edginess to the band that made them almost sound like Red-era King Crimson. 8)

Not that I agree with him, either in rankings or various remarks . . . but I found it interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/v/yFH0wJvDKx4

Quote from: 71 dB on May 09, 2017, 12:05:03 PM
Ok, listened to some Genesis on Spotify:

"The Lamb Lies Down"
Sorry, didn't care about this.

Try it again  8)

As for myself, this is one of those musical items on which my ears did pendulum swings over the years.  It was probably the very first Genesis I ever heard ("Back in NYC" was probably my very first Genesis song), around 1979-80, and I lapped it up then.  In the late '90s when I returned to the states, I found Lamb rather . . . annoyingly gloomy.  Now, possibly courtesy of the remaster, I love it all again.

So, yes:  Try it again  8)