GMG Classical Music Forum

A "silly" poll on the subject of "Haydn vs. Mozart" has been created recently.

How do you view the relative merits of these two symphonists (they did compose in other forms, I know)?

If a poll on this has been done in the past, feel free to direct me to it and lock this thread.

Let the ultimate smackdown begin!! ;D

(http://planetsmilies.net/star-wars-smiley-5472.gif) (http://planetsmilies.net)

I voted Mahler for the emotional roller coaster.  On another day I might vote Bruckner but I'm in a bit of an obsession right now. :)

Banana!

(http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/images/smilies/banana.gif)

I voted for Mahler :)

Quote from: karlhenning on January 31, 2012, 10:43:09 AM
Banana!

(http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/images/smilies/banana.gif)

Haha, I'm still laughing :D

Bruckner for the simple reason I connect to his music more. I don't listen to Bruckner as much as I used to but his music still holds a piece of my heart.

Gogogo Bruckner, deliver the smackdown!

3-3 so far!

As much as I love Bruckner too, I think it is rather obvious who I am going to vote for!

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 31, 2012, 10:47:28 AM
I voted for Mahler :)

Excellent choice, Ilaria! ;D

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 31, 2012, 11:10:32 AM
As much as I love Bruckner too, I think it is rather obvious who I am going to vote for!

Oh, rather, lad! : )

We can solve such a problem is through the application of SCIENCE:

Bruckner's music is as aloof, serene, not to mention as gargantuan as a whale.

Mahler's music is as complex inside as a thundercloud, and of similar temperament.

Whales are immune to thunderclouds.

Bruckner clearly wins when the evidence is examined :)

Bruckner was pointing to the mysteries of God and Spirit.
Mahler was pointing to the turmoils in his head.

Bruckner.

Quote from: Lethevich on January 31, 2012, 11:29:01 AM
We can solve such a problem is through the application of SCIENCE:

Bruckner's music is as aloof, serene, not to mention as gargantuan as a whale.

Mahler's music is as complex inside as a thundercloud, and of similar temperament.

Whales are immune to thunderclouds.

This is... Ummmm.... This is....irrefutable! :)

Quote from: toucan on January 31, 2012, 11:36:03 AM
The music of Mahler and Bruckner sometimes seems so alike (certain passages in Mahler) that they seem like the same composer! Yet their personalities are so different and even opposites that you cannot confuse them, Bruckner being a simple man, like a peasant, Mahler being complicated & neurotic, like a big city intellectual; Bruckner being in religion - in God - spontaneously, full time, as if it were easy - while Mahler had to strain and torture himself to attain rare and occasional glimpses of eternity. Bruckner in this respect ressembling Bach, while Mahler resembles Beethoven.

This is pretty darned good analogy. :)

Quote from: DavidW on January 31, 2012, 12:07:16 PM
This is pretty darned good analogy. :)

Actually, it wasn't. Bruckner may have not appeared to be an intellectual, but the reality is he was actually one of the most advanced musical minds of his day.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:17:46 PM
Actually, it wasn't. Bruckner may have not appeared to be an intellectual, but the reality is he was actually one of the most advanced musical minds of his day.

He meant simple as in unassuming not as in stupid! :D

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:17:46 PM
Actually, it wasn't. Bruckner may have not appeared to be an intellectual, but the reality is he was actually one of the most advanced musical minds of his day.

I have read Bruckner improvised a double fugue on assigned themes on the organ. It would interesting to put together a list of musicians who could match that. Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven certainly. Sorabji could allegedly improvise fugues (no idea on how many themes, though), and I would not be surprised if it were the case with Brahms. Any other composers?

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 31, 2012, 11:10:32 AM
Excellent choice, Ilaria! ;D

Thanks Daniel ;)

Hmm, 7-7....this poll seems to get more and more balanced.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 31, 2012, 12:50:00 PM
Thanks Daniel ;)

Hmm, 7-7....this poll seems to get more and more balanced.

Something that was pointed out to me before is that usually you have two groups of people in regards to these two composers: those who like Bruckner more than Mahler and people who like Mahler more than Bruckner. There is no equality in these choices. I'm proof of this. Give me Bruckner any day of the week over noodle head Mahler.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:53:03 PM
Something that was pointed out to me before is that usually you have two groups of people in regards to these two composers: those who like Bruckner more than Mahler and people who like Mahler more than Bruckner.

Then you have those who like them equally and can't split them with a cigarette paper.   ;)

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:53:03 PM
Something that was pointed out to me before is that usually you have two groups of people in regards to these two composers: those who like Bruckner more than Mahler and people who like Mahler more than Bruckner. There is no equality in these choices. I'm proof of this. Give me Bruckner any day of the week over noodle head Mahler.

>:(

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:53:03 PM
Something that was pointed out to me before is that usually you have two groups of people in regards to these two composers: those who like Bruckner more than Mahler and people who like Mahler more than Bruckner. There is no equality in these choices. I'm proof of this. Give me Bruckner any day of the week over noodle head Mahler.

I would say that I am equally in both camps!   8)

Still, I voted for Bruckner simply because he was one of the first composers whose music I ever encountered in my childhood.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 31, 2012, 12:56:33 PM
>:(

I guess I shall be receiving the Mahler hammer any time now. :)

Quote from: Cato on January 31, 2012, 12:58:18 PM

I would say that I am equally in both camps!   8)

Still, I voted for Bruckner simply because he was one of the first composers whose music I ever encountered in my childhood.

Ah, but you still voted for someone and in this case you chose wisely. Long live, Anton!!!! :D

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:53:03 PM
Give me Bruckner any day of the week over noodle head Mahler.

You aren't certainly soft with Mahler ::) ;)

  You see that 1 vote for where the **** is Wagner? That was me  ;D!

  In all seriousness I think these 2 are about equal.  I don't really prefer one over the other. Oh yes the Bohemian (Mahler)  versus the Spiritual (Bruckner)......I'll take both late romantic composers. After all how can one choose?

  marvin

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 31, 2012, 01:18:27 PM
You aren't certainly soft with Mahler ::) ;)

I was just kidding of course because I knew Daniel would be sending a Mahlerian hammer my way. :D Mahler was a master musician and composer. He certainly wasn't a noodle-head. I don't like a lot of his music but this by no means doesn't mean I don't respect what he accomplished.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 01:02:10 PM
I guess I shall be receiving the Mahler hammer any time now. :)

I hear the Sixth Symphony already!

Or are those the hammers of the Nibelungen?   :o

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 01:37:56 PM
I was just kidding of course because I knew Daniel would be sending a Mahlerian hammer my way. :D Mahler was a master musician and composer. He certainly wasn't a noodle-head. I don't like a lot of his music but this by no means doesn't mean I don't respect what he accomplished.

No problem John, I had understood it, I was having a bit of fun too :)

QuoteOr are those the hammers of the Nibelungen?   :o

No, that's Siegfried forging Nothung ;D

Quote from: Cato on January 31, 2012, 12:58:18 PM

I would say that I am equally in both camps!   8)

Still, I voted for Bruckner simply because he was one of the first composers whose music I ever encountered in my childhood.

I think that most of us have found a place in our hearts for both composers. :)

Voted for Bruckner.

He was one vote ahead then. But when I have finished to read the post there have been a draw. I'm really curious what I'll find after clicking the "Post" button.

I voted for Bruckner.

As Jeff Bridges nearly said, the fruit abides!

(http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/images/smilies/banana.gif)

   I vote for arugala !   I can't choose between apples and oranges. I love both composers dearly.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 01:37:56 PM
I was just kidding of course because I knew Daniel would be sending a Mahlerian hammer my way. :D Mahler was a master musician and composer. He certainly wasn't a noodle-head. I don't like a lot of his music but this by no means doesn't mean I don't respect what he accomplished.

Correct!  >:(

But, I'm glad that you believe Mahler was a master composer and that you understand he certainly was NOT a 'noodle-head'! I suppose I can understand that his music is not for everyone though...

Hope he gets more votes on this poll though! ;)

Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 01, 2012, 08:44:29 AM
Correct!  >:(

But, I'm glad that you believe Mahler was a master composer and that you understand he certainly was NOT a 'noodle-head'! I suppose I can understand that his music is not for everyone though...

Hope he gets more votes on this poll though! ;)

Absolutely, Daniel and you know, as I've told you before, that there are a few Mahler works that I really love like the 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 9th symphonies. I know you love the 6th and if I recall in my own mind correctly one of the more scorching performances of the 6th I heard was with Solti and the CSO. I'm sure you know this performance. :)

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 01, 2012, 12:41:44 PM
Absolutely, Daniel and you know, as I've told you before, that there are a few Mahler works that I really love like the 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 9th symphonies. I know you love the 6th and if I recall in my own mind correctly one of the more scorching performances of the 6th I heard was with Solti and the CSO. I'm sure you know this performance. :)

All great pieces you mention, John! My favourites, as you know! ;)
Yes, the 6th is my overall favourite along with no.9. And yes, the Solti is my favourite performance of it I have heard so far! :)

I voted for Bruckner, though the almighty Banana is the real winner here.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:17:46 PM
Actually, it wasn't. Bruckner may have not appeared to be an intellectual, but the reality is he was actually one of the most advanced musical minds of his day.

Not to mention the Beethoven - Mahler analogy in this context being more arbitrary than anything else.

I'd say they both link more to Schubert than Beethoven or Bach.

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2012, 12:17:46 PMActually, it wasn't. Bruckner may have not appeared to be an intellectual, but the reality is he was actually one of the most advanced musical minds of his day.

Quoted for TRUTH. No hayseed wrote those symphonies. Let's put that myth to rest.

This was a very difficult question to answer, but I chose Mahler. His opus is more consistently elevated.

The Apocalyptic Romantic Saucy Maid  8)

Quote from: toucan on February 01, 2012, 05:52:12 PM
Well. in terms of the music & musical influence, certainly. But I was trying to define personality types.
Schubert's lied Das sie hier gewesen is a surprising premonition of Wagner, and Wagner leads to Bruckner who leads to Mahler who leads to Schoenberg: continuity, not conflict, irrespective of our personal preferences.

Why all these versuses? I mean, Haydn v Mozart: were they opposites, enemies? Debussy/Ravel, Stravinsky/Prokofiev, Boulez/Berio?

Brahms vs Wagner: here's an opposition, or Lutoslawski vs Boulez: there's an other one...

Thank you. I agree    8)

Personality types is quite an interesting subject.  I probably don't know enough about Mahler as a person, but I suspect there may not have been another great composer who was quite like Beethoven as a person.

Haydn and Mozart were definitely friends.  Mozart admired what Haydn had achieved and probably the stable life and business acumen he seemed to have.  Mozart was more erratic it seems, a bit of a gambler, maybe more outspoken.  Nearer to Beethoven perhaps.  But Haydn first took Beethoven under his wing when he was still very young and so still felt he had a lot to prove, that wasn't the case with Mozart perhaps. 

Quote from: toucan on February 01, 2012, 05:52:12 PM
Brahms vs Wagner: here's an opposition

That should be incredibly interesting.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 07:56:09 AM
That should be incredibly interesting.

I'd choose Wagner over Brahms any day of the week.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 07:59:01 AM
I'd choose Wagner over Brahms any day of the week.

:)
So would I, althought I love Brahms' music very much.

Out of curiosity , have you ever listened to anything by Brahms, John?

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 08:27:35 AM
:)

Out of curiosity , have ever listened to anything by Brahms, John?

You're joking, right? ???

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 08:27:35 AM
Out of curiosity , have ever listened to anything by Brahms, John?

If he hasn't, this poll would have to be deleted. [Edit: Oops! I thought this was in the other poll.]

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 08:59:18 AM
You're joking, right? ???

I understand.

Do you find that music....how can I say....too imitative of the classical style?

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 02, 2012, 09:10:49 AM
I understand.

Do you find that music....how can I say....too imitative of the classical style?

No, I think Brahms was an amazing composer, but I find that Wagner's musical language was more advanced and innovative than Brahms. Wagner also has had an emotional hold over me that Brahms does not.

Bruckner the better man (possibly the best man to compose symphonies), Mahler the greater composer.