Poll
Question:
Who do you prefer?
Option 1: Karajan
votes: 21
Option 2: Bernstein
votes: 18
Option 3: Banana
votes: 4
It seems that there has been a great explosion of polls about composers during these hours, and it would be quite interesting to have one about conductors as well. :)
Two of the greatest conductors of 20th century: Herbert von Karajan and Leonard Bernstein.
I voted for Karajan.
I chose Bernstein for his versatility and just the raw power he brings to the orchestra.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2012, 01:35:43 PM
I chose Bernstein for his versatility and just the raw power he brings to the orchestra.
Yup! :)
Easily Karajan, because he shows respect for the music. Bernstein OTOH was the Argerich of the orchestra! :P
Karajan, he is more consistent and have the wide-range repertoire than Bernstein. In opera and choral music, Karajan easily surpasses Bernstein, except West Side Story ;D.
In ochestral work, Karajan is better in Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Ravel, Vienna 2nd and :P Johann Strauss. Bernstein is better in Mahler, Berlioz, Haydn,Stravinsky, Nielsen. Both excel in Sibelius, Schumann,Schubert, Shostakovich.
I voted for Bernstein, he's a better communicator.
Which means that, even if I don't even prefer or like his interpretation, he's still able to convince me.
Above that: Karajan's digital period, with a growing interest in 'Wohlklang and nothing but Wohlklang' leaves me cold. In the same period, Bernstein released many interesting live or semi-live recordings.
Easy choice for me, I voted for Karajan all the way. Let's see: the Beethoven Symphony Cycle with the BPO 1963, Richard Strauss' Der Rosenkavalier, Richard Wagner's Die Meistersingers, Puiccini's Tosca, Richard Wagner's Parsifal, Verdi's Il Trovatore and the list goes on and on and on....
I have only one Bernstein recording in my collection, Mozart's "big bone" late symphonies with the VPO!
marvin
Once again, the Chiquita option for me. I will not choose between two of my favorite conductors.
Sarge
Karl Bohm :D
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 03, 2012, 05:41:46 AM
Once again, the Chiquita option for me. I will not choose between two of my favorite conductors.
Sarge
Luckily, they did not throw Szell at you, Sarge....then things could have gotten real ugly. :D
Karajan, though not an easy choice.
Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 06:20:33 AM
Luckily, they did not throw Szell at you, Sarge....then things could have gotten real ugly. :D
There is a current Szell/Ormandy poll. An easy choice for me 8)
Sarge
Lenny by a nose.
Lenny. And not only because he's the local boy. . . .
Lenny, not because he is one of my favorite, which he isn't, but because other than some early LIVE recordings, I can't stand Karajan, and we are not even getting into the other non-musical stuff.
Lenny :)
Quote from: springrite on February 03, 2012, 07:40:05 AM
Lenny, not because he is one of my favorite, which he isn't, but because other than some early LIVE recordings, I can't stand Karajan, and we are not even getting into the other non-musical stuff.
And not getting into non-musical stuff with Bernstein either then?
Quote from: madaboutmahler on February 03, 2012, 10:09:57 AM
Lenny :)
Hope you will change idea after listening to Wagner's Ring Cycle ;)
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 03, 2012, 01:58:58 PM
Hope you will change idea after listening to Wagner's Ring Cycle ;)
Perhaps... but, it's going to be hard to beat Lenny's Mahler! :D
Quote from: karl bohm on February 03, 2012, 06:01:27 AM
Karl Bohm :D
Quoted for truth!
While I've probably got more Karajan on my shelves, my vote goes for Lenny. Particularly his late recordings for DG -- while they're seldom what you'd want for a reference version, he always has something interesting to say, and in more than a few cases (his late Sibelius or Brahms 3, say), his deeply romantic approach has led me to look at a work in a totally different way, and given insight that pays dividends even when listening to other interpretations. His earlier 60s NYPO recordings are a mixed bag IMO -- at times excellent, particularly for American composers or Mahler, but nothing special in Beethoven, Schubert, etc...
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 03, 2012, 01:58:58 PM
Hope you will change idea after listening to Wagner's Ring Cycle ;)
Well opera is one medium Bernstein didn't really have much involvement in, but the broad range of composers that Bernstein performed, and very well I might add 8), puts him many notches above Karajan IMHO.
Quote from: trung224 on February 02, 2012, 10:23:33 PM
Karajan, he is more consistent and have the wide-range repertoire than Bernstein. In opera and choral music, Karajan easily surpasses Bernstein, except West Side Story ;D.
In ochestral work, Karajan is better in Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Richard Strauss, Mendelssohn, Debussy, Ravel, Vienna 2nd and :P Johann Strauss. Bernstein is better in Mahler, Berlioz, Haydn,Stravinsky, Nielsen. Both excel in Sibelius, Schumann,Schubert, Shostakovich.
I thought Karajan would be in a clearer lead, but I suppose his reputation took more of a downward curve in recent years. There was bound to be a backlash I suppose after his big reputation earlier. And then there was publicity over his political leanings, and Bernstein may well have been promoted well in America as a great conductor. Not saying Bernstein is bad, but Karajan as you say did so much. Maybe some felt he did too much being probably the most recorded conductor ever, but that shouldn't camouflage the many good things he did through most, if not all, of his life.
Quote from: starrynight on February 03, 2012, 10:46:23 PM
I thought Karajan would be in a clearer lead, but I suppose his reputation took more of a downward curve in recent years. There was bound to be a backlash I suppose after his big reputation earlier. And then there was publicity over his political leanings, and Bernstein may well have been promoted well in America as a great conductor. Not saying Bernstein is bad, but Karajan as you say did so much. Maybe some felt he did too much being probably the most recorded conductor ever, but that shouldn't camouflage the many good things he did through most, if not all, of his life.
Indeed, no one can do everything right. I'd say Karajan is better in Beethoven or Brahms than Bernstein do not mean Karajan is the best conductor in certain area. F.ex, I like Brahms from Furtwangler, Klemperer, Giulini, Bruno Walter, Jochum, and sometimes late Celibidache over Karajan day-and-night, though Karajan 's Brahms 2 1964 is the best Brahms 2 I've heard. And in Beethoven, Furtwangler IMO is the God.
And as I know, most of superstar conductor suffer from the reduction of reputation after they died. In the 1950s-1960s, in US, Toscanini, and Reiner (in Chicago) are God, but now the younger listeners, like me, have no interest to discover their art. This phenomenon is very simple and good for music. Toscanini, Furtwangler, Klemperer, Karajan, Bernstein is the past. Now we have Abbado, Chailly, Thielemann, Boulez ..., who produce more new and interesting music, such as Mahler 2,3,6,7,9 from Abbado with BPO superseded Bernstein's recording. Thielemann's Bruckner 5, Boulez's Bruckner 8, Chailly's Beethoven cycle put new and intereting idea to the old pieces. But Karajan can live with Beethoven, Bruckner cycle, Bruckner 4,7 (EMI), Bruckner 7,8 (Vienna), Richard Strauss's Tone Poems, Sibelius 4,5,6, Mahler 5,6,9, Brahms 2 1963, Shostakovich 10, Prokofiev 5, Honegger 2,3, Debussy' La Mer, Schumann 3, and indeed Wagner, Puccini, Verdi.
Furtwangler's reputation kind of lives on though I think. Not many brought that kind of intensity to music. Mengelberg maybe sometimes, but Furtwangler seemed to have a stronger recorded legacy.
In general, I would prefer Karajan. But we cannot forget some extraordinary recordings of Bernstein (Haydn's Symphonies 82 to 87), Sibelius (First, 3rd and 7th Symphonies), Mahler (Symphonies 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9, this one with the Berlin Philharmonic) and of course some American music, Ives and Gershwin in special.
Karajan is quite famous in Sibelius, particularly for 6, 5 and 4.
Why not merge the polls? We could have Bernstein's Mahler vs Karajan's Bruckner! :)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 05, 2012, 01:17:50 AM
Why not merge the polls? We could have Bernstein's Mahler vs Karajan's Bruckner! :)
That's not a bad idea! :)
Hmm, it would be really hard to choose for me.....
If only one of them had actually conducted with a banana....
Lenny all the way.
Karajan for his support and advocacy of new technologies to hear and interact with music. And also because he tapped into the common ear with his interpretations, bringning Classical Music to a much wider audience. And he got the tempo of Beets 5th spot on in a 1968 broadcast. Also he was a great supporter of emerging talents, a crusader for rally cars, and a spiffing good conductor to boot. Although, if it came to which of these conductors was more accessible and generous of his musical knowledge, it would be Bernstein period.
Quote from: starrynight on February 04, 2012, 01:35:16 AM
Karajan is quite famous in Sibelius, particularly for 6, 5 and 4.
I think he blew #4-7 out of the park. I like HvK's Sibelius more than Bernstein's, but I never understood why he didn't perform #1-3? When it comes to Mahler, there's not contest, Lenny wins. When it comes to edgy music (Bartok, Stravinsky, Shostakovich) Lenny killed HvK. But while I love Lenny's emotional drive, I think HvK's shape of the musical phrase was much more distinguished, which is why HvK excelled in Mendelssohn, Bruckner, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Debussy, Ravel, Grieg, and even the
Second Viennese School, which Lenny stayed away from. But, again, it comes down to who moves you and makes the music connect with you and Bernstein just does it for me.
Maybe it depends what kind of music you prefer too then, I probably like the more shaped crafted music than the more fiery expressionist. Most music probably falls into that first category though.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 05, 2012, 05:59:08 PMI like HvK's Sibelius more than Bernstein's, but I never understood why he didn't perform #1-3?
Karajan did record 1 and 2 (this twice) for EMI. His digital 1 is awesome - the phrase "velvet steamroller" comes to mind.
P.S. Do you not rate K in Shostakovich 10?
I've always liked Karajan's Nielsen 4 too
Quote from: eyeresist on February 05, 2012, 06:21:19 PM
Karajan did record 1 and 2 (this twice) for EMI. His digital 1 is awesome - the phrase "velvet steamroller" comes to mind.
P.S. Do you not rate K in Shostakovich 10?
Ah, I tend forget about Karajan's EMI recordings, which have never impressed that much. I do like his Shostakovich 10th but I've heard so many performances of the 10th that I just enjoy more. Rattle/CBSO being one of them.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 06:50:40 AMAh, I tend forget about Karajan's EMI recordings, which have never impressed that much.
I imagine you would prefer DG's relative clarity and transparency to 70s EMI's rich heaviosity. For the Romantics, I prefer K's EMI recordings - although they pretty much ruined his Schubert IMHO.
Quote from: eyeresist on February 05, 2012, 06:21:19 PM
P.S. Do you not rate K in Shostakovich 10?
His finest achievement imo. :)
Quote from: DavidW on February 06, 2012, 03:18:32 PM
His finest achievement imo. :)
Your avatar looks familiar. Is this David Cronenberg approved? :)
Bernstein has the edge because of his teaching. The Young People's Concert series is sone of the best educational television ever. It doesn't talk down to the kids at all. His Harvard lectures and Odyssey appearances are golden too.
Quote from: bigshot on February 06, 2012, 07:27:47 PM
Bernstein has the edge because of his teaching. The Young People's Concert series is sone of the best educational television ever. It doesn't talk down to the kids at all. His Harvard lectures and Odyssey appearances are golden too.
This is another aspect of Bernstein I admire. His knowledge was so immense and you could tell he loved every minute of it.
Quote from: bigshot on February 06, 2012, 07:27:47 PM
Bernstein has the edge because of his teaching. The Young People's Concert series is sone of the best educational television ever. It doesn't talk down to the kids at all. His Harvard lectures and Odyssey appearances are golden too.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 08:43:49 PM
This is another aspect of Bernstein I admire. His knowledge was so immense and you could tell he loved every minute of it.
Me too. I find Bernstein to be the far more inspirational musician than Karajan.
But wasn't Karajan innovative with some things as well, like videos of music or something, and he must have helped popularise classical music too an extent, he was the most famous conductor of his time.
Bernstein's teaching ability is great, but I don't think knowledge about music is related to the great of interpretation. I love the lecture "How a Great Symphony was Written", but I feel very disappoineted when I heard his two recordings Beethoven Symphony No.3 "Eroica". The first is youthful, with tempo is close to Toscanini but lack the discipline and spark excitement, the second is ponderous and lagged. In this symphony, Bernstein could not compare with the spark excitement of Toscanini, the control of Szell, the excitement combine with the beauty of Karajan and the incredible depth of feeling in Klemperer or Furtwangler, but his knowledge is good. From this bad experience, I think Bernstein told more than what he can do ;D.
Quote from: trung224 on February 07, 2012, 11:14:27 AM
The first is youthful, with tempo is close to Toscanini but lack the discipline and spark excitement...
Couldn't disagree more. Bernstein's NY Phil Eroica is stunning. Pure adrenalin rush. Easily my favorite version.
Sarge
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 06, 2012, 06:40:16 PM
Your avatar looks familiar. Is this David Cronenberg approved? :)
Good call! ;D Love that movie.
End of this short poll........the winner is Herbert von Karajan!
As much as I love Bernstein, Karajan is my favourite conductor, I'm very pleased he won ;D
The poll is over, but it can continue to exist as a thread dedictated to these two great conductors.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on February 10, 2012, 03:14:10 AM
End of this short poll........the winner is Herbert von Karajan!
As much as I love Bernstein, Karajan is my favourite conductor, I'm very pleased he won ;D
The poll is over, but it can continue to exist as a thread dedictated to these two great condutors.
Bernstein only lost by three, which, to me, is pretty darn good. It wasn't a landslide victory that's for sure.
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 10, 2012, 07:22:32 AM
Bernstein only lost by three, which, to me, is pretty darn good. It wasn't a landslide victory that's for sure.
You voted for Bernstein John, didn't you? ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 10, 2012, 07:22:32 AM
Bernstein only lost by three, which, to me, is pretty darn good. It wasn't a landslide victory that's for sure.
Yes, very evenhanded. Everybody loses!
Can't compare. It's like comparing Brahms to Tchaikovsky you can't do it.
It's very difficult to choose between two very very different conductors. The one thing they had in common is that they were show men in their very different ways. That is not a criticism because we need people who will bring classical music to the front in the the way they did. Of course the one area in which Bernstein excelled and HvK didn't was in the realm of composing.
Quote from: DavidA on January 04, 2013, 10:23:07 PM
It's very difficult to choose between two very very different conductors. The one thing they had in common is that they were show men in their very different ways. That is not a criticism because we need people who will bring classical music to the front in the the way they did. Of course the one area in which Bernstein excelled and HvK didn't was in the realm of composing.
Also, unlike HvK, Bernstein made it a point to reach out to younger audiences and to give insightful commentary on the music as evident in his many educational videos:
Young People's Concerts and
The Unanswered Question: Six Talks At Harvard.
In the documentary Karajan, or the Beauty As I See It, they make an interesting comparison between Karajan and Bernstein, interviewing several artists who worked with both the two great conductors.
From 5:05:
http://www.youtube.com/v/n7xqDHr9QnY