I would be most gratified if anyone would take the time to recommend some music similar in style (barbarism galore!) to "The Rite of Spring" and Prokofiev's "Scythian Suite"!
Two that come straight to mind - "Sensemaya" by Silvestre Revueltas and a great big Australian Aborigine ballet by John Antill called "Corroboree." But super-primitivist stuff isn't my thing, so I'll let the experts weigh in. :)
[asin]B0018PJEJO[/asin]
Quote from: Brian on June 26, 2012, 05:50:00 PM...super-primitivist stuff isn't my thing, so I'll let the experts weigh in. :)
An interesting way to describe two extraordinarily sophisticated pieces of music. Or perhaps four. (I haven't spent much time listening to either Revueltas or Antill, so I hesitate to try to characterize either. Antheil, however, yeah. Ballet mechanique. Be sure to get ahold of the original version. The revision gutted the poor piece.)
Anyway, Willy might find Varese's
Ameriques an interesting take on some of the qualities of
Le Sacre. And if you go to the less well known symphonies thread, you'll find a piece that's been called the Dutch
Le Sacre. Honegger's
Pacific 231 has some of the qualities, as well. As do dozens of post
Le Sacre pieces. It's almost more difficult to find pre-WW II music that
doesn't inhabit that sound world.
Anyway, there's also Bartok's
Miraculous Mandarin and Prokofiev's
Chout and
Pas d'Acier and Stravinsky's own
Les Noces.
As Some Guy pointed out, there are many works written in this kind of primitive, mechanical style, but there's a lot of different approaches that should be considered. There are works that also weave these types of ideas in and out of the composition. In addition to the ones Brian and Some Guy mentioned:
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 4
Prokofiev: Symphony No. 2
Sculthorpe: Earth Cry
Koechlin: La course de printemps
Dutilleux: Metaboles
Ginastera: Estancia, Panambi
Villa-Lobos: Genesis, the Choros series, Uirapuru
Chavez: Sinfonia India, Horse Power Suite
Bartok: Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, Dance Suite (explore Bartok's music in general as a lot of it contains strong rhythms)
Quote from: some guy on June 26, 2012, 06:11:25 PM
An interesting way to describe two extraordinarily sophisticated pieces of music.
I agree, of course. I certainly don't think they're
primitive! 'Primitivist' was used in a music theory class I took to describe the consciously wild/exotically prehistoric style, or maybe the composers deliberately shaking the metaphorical powdered wigs off their listeners. :)
Quote from: Brian on June 26, 2012, 06:40:17 PM...or maybe the composers deliberately shaking the metaphorical powdered wigs off their listeners. :)
I love when that happens! ;D
I know I had a Thread like this when I rediscovered le Sacre last year. Villa-Lobos gets my vote,... the Marco Polo discs, Erosion... Choros 8-9...
Frankly, Muti's Le Sacre should qualify in its own category! If you want blood, that's the one! Brutal
Nessiaen?
The Miraculous Mandarin by Bartok!!!
Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2012, 06:55:38 AM
+ 1
I know you'd like it!
If I were to reccomend a second work, It'd probably be
Andriessen's
De Staat. I know, rather different only because it's what, 70 or 80 years later? But similar in spirit.
A somewhat more modern twist -
Birtwistle: Earth Dances
Finnissy: Red Earth
Anything with the word earth in the title, clearly...
Christopher Rouse's Gorgon, may be too "primitive" and making Le Sacre sound somewhat "neo-classical" in comparison - but Rouse may be worth checking out.
[asin]B000003G0Q[/asin]
His other works, Trombone Concerto, Symphony No. 2 and Transfiguration might also be logical next steps from Le Sacre.
:)
....even though they don't contain the word earth in the title, things like Scelsi's Uaxuctum* fit the bill too. Varese himself has already been pointed out, but yes, to reinforce that one, he is the most obvious choice of all. In fact there are passages in Ameriques and on a smaller scale in Octandre which either couldn't exist without the precedent of Le Sacre, or which are practically quoting it. Which isn't to say that the Varese aren't wholly originally works, and wonderful ones too. I am waffling now, though. Trying to avoid work...
*Record producers alert - Uaxuctum, a portrait of an ancient and alien South American civilisation replete with ondes martenots and sistrums and other odd paraphenalia, is the perfect coupling for Varese's Ecuatorial, which is ditto though without the sistrums (sistra??) That's a CD which would get the coffers overflowing... ;D ) I'd buy it anyway...
The Le sacre – Amériques connection is even clearer in the 8-hands version of the latter.
Quote from: Winky Willy on June 26, 2012, 05:44:21 PM
I would be most gratified if anyone would take the time to recommend some music similar in style (barbarism galore!) to "The Rite of Spring" and Prokofiev's "Scythian Suite"!
Prokofiev's incredible 7-minute cantata
Seven, They Are Seven about a Chaldean exorcism fits the bill.
For non-orchestral works:
Leo Ornstein's piano works
Wild Men's Dance and
Suicide in an Airplane. And
Bartok's Allegro Barbaro.
For a wild ride in general:
The Robert Browning Overture by
Charles Ives.
Quote from: Cato on June 27, 2012, 07:39:07 AM
Prokofiev's incredible 7-minute cantata Seven, They Are Seven about a Chaldean exorcism fits the bill.
For non-orchestral works: Leo Ornstein's piano works Wild Men's Dance and Suicide in an Airplane. And Bartok's Allegro Barbaro.
For a wild ride in general: The Robert Browning Overture by Charles Ives.
Great choices, Cato. I haven't heard Prokofiev's
Seven, They Are Seven yet. I tried to find a performance of it on Amazon and the recording that came was Ashkenazy's with the St. Petersburg Philharmonic.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 08:41:18 AM
Great choices, Cato. I haven't heard Prokofiev's Seven, They Are Seven yet. I tried to find a performance of it on Amazon and the recording that came was Ashkenazy's with the St. Petersburg Philharmonic.
There was a 1970's recording on Melodiya that was a real barn-burner:
Rozhdestvensky and
Yuri Yelnikov!
If you can find it somewhere, that is the one to have! The Ashkenazy is good, but he does not have
Yelnikov!
Quote from: Cato on June 27, 2012, 11:13:29 AM
There was a 1970's recording on Melodiya that was a real barn-burner: Rozhdestvensky and Yuri Yelnikov!
If you can find it somewhere, that is the one to have! The Ashkenazy is good, but he does not have Yelnikov!
Thanks, Cato. Off I go to find the Rozhdestvensky.
Edit: I didn't find it. Oh well.
Quote from: Arnold on June 27, 2012, 07:13:01 AM
Christopher Rouse's Gorgon, may be too "primitive" and making Le Sacre sound somewhat "neo-classical" in comparison - but Rouse may be worth checking out.
His other works, Trombone Concerto, Symphony No. 2 and Transfiguration might also be logical next steps from Le Sacre.
:)
This reminds me, Andre Jolivet's Trumpet Concerto probably qualifies. Really wild piece!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 12:00:52 PM
Thanks, Cato. Off I go to find the Rozhdestvensky.
Edit: I didn't find it. Oh well.
It's uploaded to Youtube: (and there's a mediafire link in the description)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3imEtW-4v80
Quote from: North Star on June 27, 2012, 02:30:49 PM
It's uploaded to Youtube: (and there's a mediafire link in the description)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3imEtW-4v80
Kudos, Karlo. Much appreciated.
a find by Norman Lebrecht,
"But then came Strauss's Alpine Symphony. That they'd go hell for leather was expected. That they'd invest each note with a degree of sensuality was also unsurprising. But that there would be maturity and musicality too was not in the script. But there it unmistakably was. Following an amble by the brook that appeared to include a hanky-panky stop-off – at least that's how I made sense of their obscene portamentos, the sort of portamentos that could undo bra-straps and whip off knickers – and a sojourn at a waterfall that not only cascaded and shimmered as any self-respecting waterfall should but also played scratchily with our faces, they returned to their long wind up to the mountaintop.
Here one witnessed one of the greatest passages of orchestral legato I've ever heard. Dudamel led them up as one, leaving behind a melody that was as epic as it was heady. One got the sense of airlessness at this peak, a sense of oxygen-deprivation that almost seemed to be turning the Alpine vista psychedelic. Certainly, on the descent, the three trombones and tuba appeared to give voice to the mountain itself and, with one last rumbly sneeze, shook us hiking interlopers off. What was interesting was how little one could attribute this vivid phantasmagoric journey to sectional triumphs. Each had spirit, but only the violins stood out in terms of technical and textural virtuosity. Otherwise this was about team effort and collective intensity and a bit of Dudamel magic."
Igor Toronyi-Lalic
Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2012, 07:35:55 AM
The Le sacre – Amériques connection is even clearer in the 8-hands version of the latter.
Stravinsky claimed he could pinpoint the myriad places in
Amériques Varèse directly lifted from
Le Sacre. Be that as it may, I love both works equally and in my mind the images each evokes are so radically different that the quotation or even plagiarism doesn't bother me at all.
I think highly of Amériques, indeed. The relation is not a matter of either plagiarism, nor quotation, quite. Varèse's piece is all his own.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 27, 2012, 03:47:36 PM
Kudos, Karlo. Much appreciated.
Yes! YouTube is awesome in this respect!
And here is
Leo Ornstein's Suicide In An Airplane complete with the score!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w)
Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2012, 05:06:06 PM
I think highly of Amériques, indeed. The relation is not a matter of either plagiarism, nor quotation, quite. Varèse's piece is all his own.
+1
Quote from: Cato on June 27, 2012, 05:06:25 PM
Yes! YouTube is awesome in this respect!
And here is Leo Ornstein's Suicide In An Airplane complete with the score!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0x3u6pH3w)
Very true, Cato. Thanks for the Ornstein link.
Quote from: Cato on June 27, 2012, 11:13:29 AMThere was a 1970's recording on Melodiya that was a real barn-burner: Rozhdestvensky and Yuri Yelnikov!
If you can find it somewhere, that is the one to have! The Ashkenazy is good, but he does not have Yelnikov!
I thought Yelnikov was awful, off-pitch and overly strained. I don't know why that recording is so highly rated, apart from rarity value.
For the thread, the Ravel orchestration of Mussorgsky's
Pictures at an Exhibition is (at least in part) a close relative of the aforementioned works.
Quote from: eyeresist on June 27, 2012, 05:42:06 PM
I thought Yelnikov was awful, off-pitch and overly strained. I don't know why that recording is so highly rated, apart from rarity value.
Do you have the score?
And of course he's strained!
He is exorcising Chaldean demons!!! >:D >:D >:D
You would be "strained" too! ;D
Honegger: Pacific 2-3-1
Quote from: karlhenning on June 27, 2012, 05:06:06 PM
I think highly of Amériques, indeed. The relation is not a matter of either plagiarism, nor quotation, quite. Varèse's piece is all his own.
Of course, I agree. The point was that Stravinsky himself disagreed ;).
Well, but then, he was an interested party ; )
Look into some Ginastera?
I agree with Stravinsky - the points where the Rite is essentially copied in Ameriques (and also in Arcana) are very evident; I can pick them out of the score too, one by one. But I agree with you guys too (and I said it originally, too) - Ameriques is a stunning maasterpiece which paradoxically, despite the Riteisms, is Varese through and through, and that if Stravinsky was carping, he was missing the point. In fact, when I get home in a few minutes after a b*** of a day at work, I think I need to crank Ameriques up to 11. >:(
Quote from: Luke on June 28, 2012, 08:34:17 AM
I agree with Stravinsky - the points where the Rite is essentially copied in Ameriques (and also in Arcana) are very evident; I can pick them out of the score too, one by one. But I agree with you guys too (and I said it originally, too) - Ameriques is a stunning maasterpiece which paradoxically, despite the Riteisms, is Varese through and through, and that if Stravinsky was carping, he was missing the point.
I make no doubt you said it originally (and more originally than I); but I promise I did not plagiarize your evaluation! : )
Similarly, on first listening the Scythian sounded obviously Rite-inspired to me, but now it sounds like pure Prokofiev. I wonder how that change came about? It would probably take a detailed analysis of the score, and Prokofiev's composing style, to find out...
Quote from: eyeresist on June 28, 2012, 05:52:57 PM
Similarly, on first listening the Scythian sounded obviously Rite-inspired to me, but now it sounds like pure Prokofiev.
My own experience (long erewhile) was similar.
The deep inspiration of The Rite in the musical language of The Scythian Suite is obvious. But it is the great complex masterpiece of the great master. So for me there is nothing contradictory to find it the pure Stravinsky one time and the pure Prokofiev other.
I suppose the same could be said about Vermeulen Symphony No.2. (I suppose this is that Dutch Le Sacre of some guy)
Quote from: mszczuj on July 02, 2012, 01:57:40 PM
I suppose the same could be said about Vermeulen Symphony No.2. (I suppose this is that Dutch Le Sacre of some guy)
Agreed! A masterpiece, a wild, unleashed rampage of the composer's id!
Which brings to mind: the incredible
Symphony #6 by
Karl Amadeus Hartmann.
Quote from: mszczuj on July 02, 2012, 01:57:40 PM
I suppose the same could be said about Vermeulen Symphony No.2. (I suppose this is that Dutch Le Sacre of some guy)
Exactly, my words. Louis Andriessen
De Staat was mentioned here, but the real equivalent, also in time - 1919 - is Matthijs Vermeulen's
Second Symphony, 'Prélude à la nouvelle journée', especially in its most inspired performance available, the one with the Residentie Orchestra (The Hague) under conductor Lucas Vis.
Quote from: mszczuj on July 02, 2012, 01:57:40 PMVermeulen Symphony No.2.
That is the one I was referring to, referencing a thread on another board as if it were one of ours.
As one cannibal said to another, the mind is a terrible thing to taste.
(I don't know why I said that.)
Sun treader (Ruggles) and the third symphony of Jolivet.
Quote from: Cato on July 02, 2012, 02:15:37 PM
Agreed! A masterpiece, a wild, unleashed rampage of the composer's id!
Which brings to mind: the incredible Symphony #6 by Karl Amadeus Hartmann.
i agree with this one too.
At very different places on the musical spectrum, I would recommend Nielsen Symphony No.4 'Inextinguishable' and Jon Leifs 'Hekla'. Also, try Khachaturian Symphony No.3.
After those 3 pieces, I'd recommend getting your hearing tested and sitting for a long time in a quiet room :)
Quote from: techniquest on July 12, 2012, 10:39:46 AM
Also, try Khachaturian Symphony No.3.
After those 3 pieces, I'd recommend getting your hearing tested and sitting for a long time in a quiet room :)
Well, the
Khachaturianis a fun potboiler, like watching a Godzilla movie while high on Mountain Dew, but not in the league of
Prokofiev or
Stravinsky. 8)
Still, it does have an organ and c. 18 trumpets! ;D I heard the premiere recording of the work as conducted by
Leopold Stokowski! He was around 90 at the time!
Gave a first listen the other night to Prokofiev's ballet "Chout" (The fool who fooled seven other fools"). Don't know if I actually like it, but I was reasonably impressed and it sounded to me like a work that would fit nicely on this thread. Also, but less certainly, another of his ballets, Le Pas d'Acier (The Steel Step, or as CPO insists on Englishing it, THe Steal Step.)
Quote from: Cato on July 12, 2012, 01:40:48 PMWell, the Khachaturianis a fun potboiler, like watching a Godzilla movie while high on Mountain Dew, but not in the league of Prokofiev or Stravinsky. 8)
"Potboiler" suggests the Khach 3 is a generic work, when as far as I know there is nothing remotely like it in the repertoire. I believe it has depths yet to be explored. The problem is that the great slower, atmospheric sections tend to be wiped out of memory by the trumpet blasts. We need a performance in which the slower sections are established as the foundations of the work.
Quote"Potboiler" suggests the Khach 3 is a generic work, when as far as I know there is nothing remotely like it in the repertoire. I believe it has depths yet to be explored. The problem is that the great slower, atmospheric sections tend to be wiped out of memory by the trumpet blasts. We need a performance in which the slower sections are established as the foundations of the work.
There are very few recordings of the piece, but the finest by a long way is also the latest: BBC Philharmonic / Glushchenko on Chandos from 1994. This one does at least acknowledge the more lyrical parts of the score and doesn't simply go for the bomburst of the trumpets, organ and a shed-load of percussion (though those parts are
very well done). Unfortunately the Armenian / Tjeknavorian recording on ASV from the previous year falls a long way short, though the Symphony No.1 coupling is very good (not as good though as Tjeknavorians previous recording with the LSO). Kondrashins' recording of the 3rd on Melodiya is a powerful performance but the recording doesn't do it justice, though admittedly I am going on the vinyl release and I haven't heard the CD transfer which may well be better.
That brings us back to the Stokowski recording with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and this really does concentrate on the noise and scoots over whatever else may be in the score.
There was a mono recording with Mravinsky which has been released on Brilliant Classics in their Historical Russian Archives series, but it is very old indeed and the recording can't do justice to the enormous score.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:09:27 PM
"Potboiler" suggests the Khach 3 is a generic work, when as far as I know there is nothing remotely like it in the repertoire.
"Potboiler" refers to the "kitschy" themes in the work, dressed up with 18 trumpets and an organ. Again, a fun work, so...
Quote from: eyeresist on July 12, 2012, 09:09:27 PM
I believe it has depths yet to be explored.
...feel free to don that diving suit and explore! 0:)
i'd like to know if aside from Night on bald mountain there are other pieces that predate the "barbaric" (for lack of a better term) style used by Stravinsky.
Quote from: escher on July 13, 2012, 11:22:00 PM
i'd like to know if aside from Night on bald mountain there are other pieces that predate the "barbaric" (for lack of a better term) style used by Stravinsky.
http://www.youtube.com/v/fA0XVVNJoFM
Husa Music for Prague 1969
Persichetti Parable (for Band)
mm...eh?
Quote from: escher on July 13, 2012, 11:22:00 PM
i'd like to know if aside from Night on bald mountain there are other pieces that predate the "barbaric" (for lack of a better term) style used by Stravinsky.
How about:
Saint-Saens and the
Bacchanale from
Samson and Delilahhttp://www.youtube.com/v/kcV7vgxeIfQ&feature=related
Quote from: techniquest on July 13, 2012, 08:46:10 AMThere are very few recordings of the piece, but the finest by a long way is also the latest: BBC Philharmonic / Glushchenko on Chandos from 1994. This one does at least acknowledge the more lyrical parts of the score and doesn't simply go for the bomburst of the trumpets, organ and a shed-load of percussion (though those parts are very well done). Unfortunately the Armenian / Tjeknavorian recording on ASV from the previous year falls a long way short, though the Symphony No.1 coupling is very good (not as good though as Tjeknavorians previous recording with the LSO). Kondrashins' recording of the 3rd on Melodiya is a powerful performance but the recording doesn't do it justice, though admittedly I am going on the vinyl release and I haven't heard the CD transfer which may well be better.
That brings us back to the Stokowski recording with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and this really does concentrate on the noise and scoots over whatever else may be in the score.
There was a mono recording with Mravinsky which has been released on Brilliant Classics in their Historical Russian Archives series, but it is very old indeed and the recording can't do justice to the enormous score.
Wow, glad to find someone who knows the work!
I have Kondrashin in the Venezia CD reissue. The sound isn't as rich as we'd like, and breaks up in the tuttis, particularly towards the end. It's still the best version I've heard, though.
I listened to the brief Amazon sample of Glushchencko - compared to Kondrashin he sounded really anemic. I realise I should hear more than 30s to judge, but still...
Tjeknavorian was okay-ish in 3, but his cycle is pretty disappointing. 1 and 2 are both wide misses (I haven't heard the earlier 1). I've ordered Melodiya's reissue of the composer conducting 1 (live, allegedly 1978) - hopefully that will be good.
I only found out about the Mravinsky recently! From the samples, the sound really is not good enough.
Quote from: Cato on July 13, 2012, 03:40:32 PM"Potboiler" refers to the "kitschy" themes in the work, dressed up with 18 trumpets and an organ.
Yeah, music with strong feelings is so lame!
cato and wanderer: interesting suggestions. The alkan piece sounds like rock'n'roll in the nineteen century
QuoteWow, glad to find someone who knows the work!
I have Kondrashin in the Venezia CD reissue. The sound isn't as rich as we'd like, and breaks up in the tuttis, particularly towards the end. It's still the best version I've heard, though.
I listened to the brief Amazon sample of Glushchencko - compared to Kondrashin he sounded really anemic. I realise I should hear more than 30s to judge, but still...
Tjeknavorian was okay-ish in 3, but his cycle is pretty disappointing. 1 and 2 are both wide misses (I haven't heard the earlier 1). I've ordered Melodiya's reissue of the composer conducting 1 (live, allegedly 1978) - hopefully that will be good.
I only found out about the Mravinsky recently! From the samples, the sound really is not good enough.
Hmm, it sounds as though the CD transfer of the Kondrashin hasn't improved anything; I have it on vinyl so I shan't bother ordering the CD. Of the Tjeknavorian cycle, I'd rate No.1 as the best with the 3rd next but the 2nd way at the back as a definite last. None are great, but despite the bland recording quality and the fluffed notes, the 1st has energy and enthusiasm, especially in the last movement and captures the 'fresh air' carefree elements in the 1st movement really nicely.
You really must give the Glushchenko a proper listen as it knocks the competition out of the race and is the only recording that can really show the density of the score at the volumes which are required. Many people dismiss Khachaturian as a shallow composer of 'crash, bang, wallop' kitsch with a few nice tunes in between. The symphonies are so worthwhile exploring as they show a side to the composer that 'Gayeneh' and 'Masquerade' obviously don't; even the 3rd has stuff happening in there if you look hard enough.
BTW, if you haven't yet heard the Neeme Jarvi recording of the 2nd symphony on Chandos, then give it a listen as soon as you can - it really is first class.
Quote from: techniquest on July 16, 2012, 01:30:36 PMYou really must give the Glushchenko a proper listen as it knocks the competition out of the race and is the only recording that can really show the density of the score at the volumes which are required.
Oh alright, it's back on the wishlist :D
It's only the first movement, but Szabelski's fifth symphony ( organ, chorus and orchestra) is quite an experience.
http://youtu.be/dtVEVt7KCKU
Szabelski's third symphony can also be heard on You Tube - it is less agressive, but made a favorable iùmpression.
P.