Richard Cohen has the guts to take on the Algebra Mafia. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/taking-on-algebra/2012/07/30/gJQANFgWKX_blog.html)
Well, in Cohen's defense, math is hard. And things that are hard really have no place in the classroom. Such things may make students work and think. We do not want that. Leave math to the rest of the world.
Quote from: Todd on July 30, 2012, 11:23:05 AM
Well, in Cohen's defense, math is hard. And things that are hard really have no place in the classroom. Such things may make students work and think. We do not want that. Leave math to the rest of the world.
(I should note that, unlike Mr Cohen, I use algebra on a daily basis.)
Cohen's complaint is no matter of algebra being hard. Nor does he argue that no one uses it.
I daresay Cohen believes in having students work hard and learn to think, no less than you.
So the emotional response is, if we do not keep algebra compulsory in high school, we're leaving math to the rest of the world?
Fair disclosure: I probably did not hate algebra so much as Cohen (perhaps rhetorically) reports that he did. I've probably not used it a day in my life since leaving algebra class, either.
This is some literary version of stand-up comedy, right?
Isn't it? :-\
Apparently, that's some strongbox Cohen is thinking outside of ; )
Okay, remind me (and leave us remained focused): what is the argument for having algebra compulsory in high school?
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2012, 11:29:46 AMSo the emotional response is, if we do not keep algebra compulsory in high school, we're leaving math to the rest of the world?
Cohen's article is nothing but lazy whining. The response to children failing to meet standards is not to lower or eliminate the standards. But hey, if standards are lowered further, and fewer people are math literate, then that's good, because, well, algebra isn't used by everyone in "real life". Using such reasoning, why bother teaching history? How often do people use knowledge of the French Revolution or Teapot Dome in "real life"? How about literature? Shakespeare wrote a long time ago, and understanding what he wrote can be hard. Even someone like Keats or even Dickens can be hard to get at first. And who gives a shit about 19th Century jibber-jabber, anyway? What about civics? How many people really understand such complex things as bicameral legislatures? It's so
confusing. Why bother teaching art? How often do people really need to know the difference between Monet and Manet, or even Picasso and David, in "real life"? Why teach music, at all, ever, to anyone except those who are interested? Who needs to know about the great artists of the past, or what a quarter note is?
But math is a good place to start. It is hard. And it is not used in "real life." Shit-can it.
(Well, some people use it. Not only do I use algebra, I use statistics. That's real tough, too.)
Music is not compulsory. I don't believe it should be.
The argument is not against a compulsory curriculum. I know I should enjoy (and probably take refreshed lessons from) a discussion of what makes for a compulsory core curriculum. Judging by the Internet, English grammar and spelling (and, gawdelpus, logic) are hard enough for people, that their instruction in high school ought to be strengthened.
Math to a certain level, should be compulsory; that concept is not at risk (I don't believe). If there is some case specifically for algebra to be compulsory, I am missing it here. I am failing to see a hypothetical situation where algebra obviously continues to be taught in high school, but that someone (for instance) whose intention is to continue study in the Humanities can opt out of math at a higher level than he will find serviceable — I am failing to see how that hypothetical situation spells the end of civilization.
I think the question raised is legitimate; nor have I yet seen the case of its illegitimacy. If Cohen were an 18-year-old, yes, I should call this lazy whining. Given that he is raising the question at a chronological remove from that charge, I think that charge a distraction.
Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2012, 12:02:08 PMMusic is not compulsory. I don't believe it should be.
It is in some school districts. For instance, it is where I live, at least for now.
Not making algebra and higher level math compulsory will not result in the end of civilization. That's a rather ridiculous statement. It may, and likely will, result in an ever smaller pool of people capable of performing critical jobs (eg, some types of engineers and developers), which, when combined with the terrible immigration policy the US currently enjoys, will result in on-going shortages, which may, and likely will, contribute to more offshoring, and with it lost tax revenue, and so on. It will also result in a dumber populace, something that isn't a laudable goal, or at least I didn't think it was. I'm sure professional educators have a variety of theories about how and what to teach, but it seems to me that a society should strive for at least some baseline of knowledge among its citizenry, which includes at least some rudimentary math, into which category I place algebra. Being able to think logically and abstractly has its benefits, and being numerate is a good way to know when someone may be lying about certain subjects.
As I pointed out in my prior post, the same type of question can be asked of the humanities. Who needs history, really? Given the abysmal state of knowledge in this area, it's clear that a lot of people don't have an even basic grasp on the subject. Rather than ignoring it, I rather think more time and energy ought to go into teaching it.
Mr Cohen's opinion is lazy whining. It seeks, and approves of, mediocrity. But hey, that's good enough, right?
On the upside, people who are well-versed in higher level math may very well be able to pursue more financially rewarding careers relative to the masses. That being the case, I push my children to study every academic area, in school and out, whether they like it or not, with a focus on what is being short-changed in school. (Math is not an issue for either of my children right now, thankfully.) I also hold them accountable for performance, and provide both incentives and disincentives. When they are in college, they can abide by the academic rules at whatever institution they attend, but my job is to get them there. And I cannot rely on schools alone for that.
I think the case for compulsory algebra rests on a kind of slippery slope argument. If we start to remove hard subjects we are left with relatively easy ones. Since we've already traveled too far down that road we're going in the wrong direction and increasing the uncompetitiveness of American students in math and science. We don't produce enough engineers in this country, so we import them. It's good that we import them, but bad that we have to. It's a good case. My niece is good at math and science, and music, too. I'm glad she got a chance to learn these subjects in a school where they're rigorously taught.
I'm in favor of increasing the upward slope of excellence in public schools, so the bright kids will be challenged. I also think music should be emphasized, if not compulsory.
I must say, I find this discussion depression.
Despite the fact that occasions to solve quadratic equations are infrequent, there are strong reasons that algebra should be compulsory for high school students.
1. Algebra teaches abstract, quantitative reasoning (or at least it should). This skill can be used every day. A person with quantitative reasoning skills can decide for him or herself whether Barack Obama or Mitt Romney's budget proposals make rudimentary sense, how badly the federal budget is out-of-whack, whether a lease deal on a new car is reasonable, how long a string of Christmas lights is necessary to decorate that pine tree in the front yard, or whether a state lottery ticket is a better bet than playing the numbers with the local mobsters.
2. Quantitative reasoning skills are the basis for the global economy. The US is a prosperous country because it's work force has been the best educated and most productive over the last half century. The performance in math and science of the current crop of US students is dismal compared to those in other developed countries, and even some undeveloped countries. If that situation is not remedied, the US economy is going to sink. We need to identify students who are talented in math/science and guide them towards careers in which they will excel. If students can opt out of challenging curriculum many students will never find out that they have a talent for math. US universities have made great efforts to enroll more students in science/technology majors. A distressing fraction of them flunk out or switch their majors to something easier.
There is a strong case that the reason economic growth in the US is now essentially zero is not the budget deficit, or the financial crisis. The reason is that US workers are unable to compete with workers overseas even in high skill jobs. I am not concerned with the fact that the US can't compete with China in the manufacture of socks. I am concerned that corporations are moving their research and development operations out of the US because they find superior pools of potential research/engineering staff overseas. If tech products are designed overseas, manufactured overseas, programmed overseas, how long before those people figure out that they can design, manufacture and program those gadgets without sending the lions share of the profits to US corporations?
I would have more sympathy if the argument is against calculus but... is algebra really THAT HARD?
I remember the college math placement test in the US. I could do it in 7th grade and get a 98%. I was one of the worst math student in my high school class in China. And someone wants to LOWER THAT?
Quote from: Scarpia on August 07, 2012, 02:37:03 PMI am concerned that corporations are moving their research and development operations out of the US because they find superior pools of potential research/engineering staff overseas.
Companies move R&D around for a variety of reasons. Since the US has slightly more R&D as a percent of GDP now than in the past (at least through June of last year, when this same subject was covered in the Meltdown thread), I'm not sure there is a great deal to be concerned about today or the near future. With declining or stagnating educational standards and a perpetually ridiculous immigration policy, though, there will be a lot to worry about in the future. Teaching algebra just makes sense. Geometry, too.
Quote from: springrite on August 07, 2012, 02:50:04 PMI would have more sympathy if the argument is against calculus but... is algebra really THAT HARD?
No, it's not.
Quote from: Todd on August 07, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
Companies move R&D around for a variety of reasons. Since the US has slightly more R&D as a percent of GDP now than in the past (at least through June of last year, when this same subject was covered in the Meltdown thread), I'm not sure there is a great deal to be concerned about today or the near future. With declining or stagnating educational standards and a perpetually ridiculous immigration policy, though, there will be a lot to worry about in the future. Teaching algebra just makes sense. Geometry, too.
Given that number of jobs created in the US over the last 10 years (excluding the housing bubble) is almost nil, I think there is reason to be concerned. A recent study I read said that employment in the pharmaceutical industry has declined by 300,000 in the past 10 years, with the major companies closing facilities in the US and opening facilities in India, China and Europe. Another trend in life-sciences is that the NIH has shifted its focus from basic research to "translational research," which means acting as a subcontractor for drug companies, who can now run their clinical trials at taxpayer expense. This has made jobs in the private sector redundant and drained resources from basic biomedical research.
What I find more alarming is the fact that the government has been falling behind in funding research in academic institutions. According to a report I saw in an IEEE journal, the US now ranks 22 out of the 30 leading economies in academic research funding as a fraction of GDP. This is not a good thing for the US economy.
Here is some cheerful reading.
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2011/Jun/Academic-RandD.asp
Quote from: Scarpia on August 07, 2012, 03:38:58 PM
Given that number of jobs created in the US over the last 10 years (excluding the housing bubble) is almost nil, I think there is reason to be concerned. A recent study I read said that employment in the pharmaceutical industry has declined by 300,000 in the past 10 years, with the major companies closing facilities in the US and opening facilities in India, China and Europe.
My son, a chemist for a major pharmaceutical company, will be moving to Basel from New Jersey. Not so for many hundreds of others at the New Jersey facility who have been fired.
Quote from: Sammy on August 07, 2012, 07:47:43 PM
My son, a chemist for a major pharmaceutical company, will be moving to Basel from New Jersey. Not so for many hundreds of others at the New Jersey facility who have been fired.
Did he work at Roche? At least Basel is a pleasant place.
I know someone who worked for IBM for some time and was told that he could either locate to India or loose his job. Now that is a culture shock.
Quote from: Scarpia on August 07, 2012, 08:09:18 PM
Did he work at Roche? At least Basel is a pleasant place.
I know someone who worked for IBM for some time and was told that he could either locate to India or loose his job. Now that is a culture shock.
Yes, he works for Roche. It's a great move for him, leaving New Jersey for an adventure in Switzerland; he also gets a nice promotion out of it.
I read The Post everyday and don't recall that Tel Aviv shill's article about math. Huh.
Quote from: Sammy on August 07, 2012, 08:14:31 PM
Yes, he works for Roche. It's a great move for him, leaving New Jersey for an adventure in Switzerland; he also gets a nice promotion out of it.
What I read was that 1000 chemists lost their jobs when the Nutley facility closed.
In any case, looks like we are derailing Karl's thread about how too many Americans students study math. (Maybe he's right.) Probably we should continue discussion on the meltdown thread.
Quote from: Scarpia on August 07, 2012, 09:06:15 PM
In any case, looks like we are derailing Karl's thread about how too many Americans students study math. (Maybe he's right.)
That was not quite my import. Or, strictly speaking, that was not quite Cohen's import. And of course, one observes a distinction between entertaining an idea and endorsing an idea. But of course, I benefit from logical thought for whose acquisition I did not require higher math ; )
Quote from: snyprrr on August 07, 2012, 08:22:16 PM
. . . that Tel Aviv shill's article about math.
Why, the way you talk : )