OK, time for another of those silly hypothetical questions. The boat's about to leave for ye olde desert islande, and all of your CDs of solo & chamber music (not to mention pop music, etc.) are already on board, but there's a wrinkle:
You can take as many orchestral recordings as you like. However, they all have to be with the same conductor. So, you need to pick someone whose interpretations are deeply satisfying to you, but also someone who covers enough of the repetoire to keep you happy.
So, for example, if you pick Lenny, you get to take all of Lenny's recordings, with the NYPO, Vienna Phil, Sony & DG, everything. But that's all you get. So if Lenny didn't record a particular piece, you don't get to take it along. Official released recordings only: not necessarily limited to the major labels, but something that could be bought legally on CD, not some radio aircheck that you downloaded from some guy who transferred it from his Dads' reel-to-reel tape.
So, who's your pick?
Harnoncourt. :)
8)
Possibly Lenny, but possibly Charles Mackerras.
Someone on the old Gramophone forum asked the same question seven, eight years ago, so I've long thought about this question. No answer is satisfactory. Ideally I'd want someone who's recorded the complete, or near complete works of Mahler, Bruckner and Wagner, but no one has. Since I love the period from roughly 1775 to 1945 the best, it's also impossible to think of a single conductor who covers that period well both in quantity and quality (Szell was superb in everything he did--my ideal conductor--but his recorded legacy isn't as extensive as I'd wish). Bernstein comes close. I love his Haydn and Beethoven, love his performances of 20th century works, and most everything in between...but there's not much Wagner or Bruckner, two demigods in my personal Trinity. Karajan covers Bruckner and Wagner, and there is at least some Mahler (4, 5, 6, 9, DLvdE) plus a smattering of 20th century works. But other than Beethoven, he's fairly weak in the Classical era. Barenboim is much like Karajan, covering a lot of the same territory as Karajan (complete Wagner, Bruckner, for example) and I love his Mozart PC cycles (something which Lenny and Herbie never did). But there's no Sibelius, which weighs heavily against him.
So, Barenboim, Karajan or Bernstein...
I suppose I'd pick Karajan again (like I did years ago). The extensive opera repertoire (Verdi, Puccini, Mozart, Strauss, etc) tips the scales in his favor.
Sarge
Tough call, I wanna say Ormandy or HvK for breadth....
Ok, Szell.
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 06, 2012, 10:20:29 AM
Harnoncourt. :)
8)
This could also be my choice, but I think I'm, going with Christopher Hogwood.
Abbado
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2012, 11:03:37 AM
Someone on the old Gramophone forum asked the same question seven, eight years ago, so I've long thought about this question. No answer is satisfactory. Ideally I'd want someone who's recorded the complete, or near complete works of Mahler, Bruckner and Wagner, but no one has. Since I love the period from roughly 1775 to 1945 the best, it's also impossible to think of a single conductor who covers that period well both in quantity and quality (Szell was superb in everything he did--my ideal conductor--but his recorded legacy isn't as extensive as I'd wish). Bernstein comes close. I love his Haydn and Beethoven, love his performances of 20th century works, and most everything in between...but there's not much Wagner or Bruckner, two demigods in my personal Trinity. Karajan covers Bruckner and Wagner, and there is at least some Mahler (4, 5, 6, 9, DLvdE) plus a smattering of 20th century works. But other than Beethoven, he's fairly weak in the Classical era. Barenboim is much like Karajan, covering a lot of the same territory as Karajan (complete Wagner, Bruckner, for example) and I love his Mozart PC cycles (something which Lenny and Herbie never did). But there's no Sibelius, which weighs heavily against him.
So, Barenboim, Karajan or Bernstein...
I suppose I'd pick Karajan again (like I did years ago). The extensive opera repertoire (Verdi, Puccini, Mozart, Strauss, etc) tips the scales in his favor.
Sarge
I started putting together my thoughts, but you cover it nearly perfectly for me (though Barenboim is less interesting for me). I think Karajan would probably be my choice too (love his opera too and quite a nice range), though Mackerras is one I would consider as well. He did some opera (Mozart, Janacek), but lack of Verdi (in original language), Wagner and Puccini is probably a no-go for me. Solti is another possibility. He has your big three (though I know you are less happy with his Wagner than others). He's got some other great stuff like Mozart operas, some Tchaikovsky operas, and Carmen, and he has done some Bach, Haydn, Mozart, so there would not be a total lack of that period (though I'd miss a total lack of Donizetti). Abbado and Davis (Colin) also came to mind.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2012, 11:27:37 AMSolti is another possibility. He has your big three....
I completely forgot he recorded a Bruckner cycle. I probably forgot because it's not very good :D
But seriously, you make a good case for Solti. I don't really dislike anything I've heard (I could live with his Bruckner...if I had to) and many things I really love that neither Bernstein nor Karajan covered (like the Elgar symphonies and Violin Concerto, and the Berg Violin Concerto). I may have to rethink my choice. Wait....no Sibelius. Arrrrgghhhh! A deal breaker.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2012, 11:38:33 AM
I completely forgot he recorded a Bruckner cycle. I probably forgot because it's not very good :D
But seriously, you make a good case for Solti. I don't really dislike anything I've heard (I could live with his Bruckner...if I had to) and many things I really love that neither Bernstein nor Karajan covered (like the Elgar symphonies and Violin Concerto, and the Berg Violin Concerto). I may have to rethink my choice. Wait....no Sibelius. Arrrrgghhhh! A deal breaker.
Sarge
Mackerras only has the Sibelius Second... I may have to switch conductors to get the Fifth.
But my problem is: who has a Sibelius Five and one or two works by Janacek? That limits me to Horenstein, Jarvi, and Rattle.
Which... is it not truly incredible that only three conductors have recorded both Sibelius Five and some Janacek?? Even Karajan and Ormandy have no Janacek listed! I'm using ArkivMusic, so maybe I'm missing something, but how is it that Jarvi and Rattle are effectively the only conductors with both Janacek and Sibelius central to their repertoire?
Now I'm thinking this is impossible, cuz I'm clearly gonna have to choose between two of my faves.
I'm also a bit annoyed Lenny and Mackerras never did Shosty's Tenth. Would it be insane to contemplate a vote for Kurt Sanderling? Beethoven concertos with Gilels and Richter, ravishing Bruckner 7, full cycles of Sibelius and Shostakovich and Brahms. Hmmm. Maybe Sanderling is a bit too crazy. Starting to think Ormandy again.
This is haaaard!
Giulini.
Quote from: Brian on August 06, 2012, 11:57:50 AM
This is haaaard!
No shit! :D A major problem for me is how to get Vaughan Williams, Sibelius, Nielsen, Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner in one....can't be done. Bernstein comes closest...at least there are
some Lenny recordings of VW, Wagner and Bruckner...not nearly extensive enough though.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2012, 11:38:33 AM
I completely forgot he recorded a Bruckner cycle. I probably forgot because it's not very good :D
But seriously, you make a good case for Solti. I don't really dislike anything I've heard (I could live with his Bruckner...if I had to) and many things I really love that neither Bernstein nor Karajan covered (like the Elgar symphonies and Violin Concerto, and the Berg Violin Concerto). I may have to rethink my choice. Wait....no Sibelius. Arrrrgghhhh! A deal breaker.
Sarge
That (Sibelius) doesn't bother me too much, but I had forgotten Elgar Symphonies. Karajan doesn't have those. And Solti has more Shostakovich.
I thought of another who might be a possibility - Haitink. He's got the big three, but lacks Sibelius (and has less opera than Karajan). Though perhaps he redeems himself with a Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich Cycle?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2012, 12:02:32 PM
No shit! :D A major problem for me is how to get Vaughan Williams, Sibelius, Nielsen, Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner in one....can't be done. Bernstein comes closest...at least there are some Lenny recordings of VW, Wagner and Bruckner...not nearly extensive enough though.
Sarge
My shopping list would include:
- The Beethoven symphs (must be very good)
- Brahms 4
- Sibelius 5 (+ 6 and 7 ideally)
- some Janacek
...which somehow leaves me with only one conductor
ever to choose from: Simon Rattle. And I don't want Simon Rattle, so I have to start giving stuff up.
My three finalists are Mackerras, Ormandy, and Bernstein. I think. If I could somehow convince the Desert Island Customs bureau that the Mackerras Sibelius symphony cycle is authentic and I didn't just paste pictures of his head over Lenny's, that would be the solution.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2012, 12:02:32 PM
No shit! :D A major problem for me is how to get Vaughan Williams, Sibelius, Nielsen, Wagner, Mahler and Bruckner in one....can't be done. Bernstein comes closest...at least there are some Lenny recordings of VW, Wagner and Bruckner...not nearly extensive enough though.
Sarge
Davis fills that except for Wagner, where you'd be stuck with his Lohengrin reminding you how you left the rest for dust! :) Though, you'd get a chance to listen to his Berlioz.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2012, 12:08:54 PM
That (Sibelius) doesn't bother me too much, but I had forgotten Elgar Symphonies. Karajan doesn't have those. And Solti has more Shostakovich.
I thought of another who might be a possibility - Haitink. He's got the big three, but lacks Sibelius (and has less opera than Karajan). Though perhaps he redeems himself with a Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich Cycle?
Glad to see you're doing my thinking for me, Neal ;D
Haitink:
Wagner (at least the Ring and Tannhaüser)
Mahler
Bruckner
Elgar (although no Violin or Cello Concerto that I know of)
Vaughan Williams (my favorite cycle after Boult...a huge plus)
Shostakovich
Debussy (great performances!)
Liszt (a good to great cycle)
but Nielsen and Sibelius...zip :'(
Some great Mozart operas:
my favorite Grimes (wrong...that would be Davis but Haitink ain't bad), a lovely Strauss Daphne, Fidelio, Jenufa :o....but yeah, otherwise not that extensive.
Still, after Karajan, I might go with Haitink
Sarge
My choice would be certainly Herbert von Karajan, although, what a pity he didn't record more Mahler's music.....
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on August 06, 2012, 12:22:09 PM
My choice would be certainly Herbert von Karajan, although, what a pity he didn't record more Mahler's music.....
I'm shocked, Ilaria, shocked by your choice :D
Sarge
Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 06, 2012, 12:08:54 PM
I thought of another who might be a possibility - Haitink. He's got the big three, but lacks Sibelius (and has less opera than Karajan). Though perhaps he redeems himself with a Vaughan Williams and Shostakovich Cycle?
Haitink would be my choice, for all the reasons you mention. Plus, I generally like his "objective" approach and think it would wear well for repeated listenings. The downsides are the lack of Sibelius, major Czech composers, and contemporary or American music.
Certainly controversial, but considering his championing of new (at the time) music, I would think good ol' Leopold Stokowski must be considered.
And his contemporary Arturo Toscanini!
Came across this: John Adams on Stokowski vs. Toscanini:
http://operachic.typepad.com/opera_chic/2010/03/john-adams-on-what-made-stokowski-cooler-than-toscanini.html (http://operachic.typepad.com/opera_chic/2010/03/john-adams-on-what-made-stokowski-cooler-than-toscanini.html)
Rafael Kubelik anyone? Again a champion of new music (e.g. Karl Amadeus Hartmann) and his Mahlercycle on DGG in the 60's and 70's was excellent.
Yeah, he was the last choice someone could expect from me. ;D
I'd have to choose among Gardiner, Herreweghe, Bohm and Colin Davis. Since Herreweghe is my favorite Bach conductor, he's my pick.
My choices are Karajan, Bernstein and indeed Furtwängler (only for Autro-German repertoire) and perhaps Harnoncourt
Quote from: trung224 on August 06, 2012, 07:31:26 PM
My choices are Karajan, Bernstein and indeed Furtwängler (only for Autro-German repertoire) and perhaps Harnoncourt
Since you can only pick one, who of the four will it be?
Sarge
final choice is Karajan 8)
Quote from: trung224 on August 07, 2012, 04:17:50 AM
final choice is Karajan 8)
Me too. ;D If Kleiber (Carlos) has a much wider opus, NO QUESTION he would win outright, hands down, knees up and all that. But his output was so slim. :'(
It's not clear to me whether opera counts as "orchestral" or not. To do without operatic Mozart, Wagner, Verdi, Janacek and Berg is inconceivable, but there is no one conductor for all of these on record. As far as orchestral goes, I would like to take Barbirolli: Brahms, Bruckner,Sibelius, Strauß & Strauss, a lot of great English music...Not much Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Berlioz, Debussy or Ravel - that Eroica is splendid, though. La Mer too...Modern music is quasi-out: who does Ives, Schoenberg, Berg,Bartok, Stravinsky, Messiaen etc as well as the above? Scherchen would be a good choice for a huge repertoire, assuming all his recordings were available, but no Sibelius, Strauss or English music! Perhaps the only conductor who did the great classics and a lot of modern music plus at least a little Sibelius would be Rosbaud - of whom Poulenc said in the 50s that the public assumed Toscanini was the greatest living conductor, whereas musicians all knew it was Rosbaud. Yes, if I could have all the recordings made by Rosbaud - lot of stuff in the German radio archives - I would choose him (just imagine if he had lived to take over the Chicago orchestra!), and just hum a bit of Elgar etc to myself sometimes.
After much pondering, I think I may have to go with Haitink. Szell was my initial gut choice, but I have to agree with Sarge that the repetoire is too narrow. Giulini seemed like a good fit as well, but again, did he do enough? I'm not a big opera guy. Karajan was an obvious choice, but I don't know if I could live with only his approach. Haitink, as I think someone previously said, would wear better over time, I think.
With Haitink, Symphony-wise I get very good cycles of Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven, Brahms, and Schumann, plus very fine orchestral Debussy, Strauss, and Stravinsky. Plus there are some very nice concerto recordings, which Karajan is not strong on.
There are serious downsides, though. There's no Bach, but since I have the solo keyboard and chamber music already on the boat, I can live with that. A more serious bummer, searching around the net, I don't see any late Mozart symphonies or concertos, other than a lone recent #38 -- is it possible that with all of Haitink's recordings, he never did Mozart 35-41? No Jupiter symphony may yet be a deal-breaker, grrrrr
And then there's Kubelik.... hmmm...
Because I feel that breadth has taken too much of an influence in people's choices (despite the fact that I guess it should), I have started another thread to find out people's 10 favorite conductors, irrespective of how much they may have recorded:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20817.msg650321/topicseen.html#msg650321
Quote from: Brian on August 06, 2012, 11:57:50 AM
Which... is it not truly incredible that only three conductors have recorded both Sibelius Five and some Janacek?? Even Karajan and Ormandy have no Janacek listed! I'm using ArkivMusic, so maybe I'm missing something, but how is it that Jarvi and Rattle are effectively the only conductors with both Janacek and Sibelius central to their repertoire?
Szell has 2, 4, 7 and
En Saga, and he did conduct 3 and the Violin Concerto, too (but no Fifth :'( ) plus the Janacek
Sinfonietta (my favorite version, as you know). But you're right, I think. Not many conduct both composers.
Sarge
Thanks for keeping the thread alive, Sarge!
Personally I find this much more interesting than a simple list of conductors, but I can't stay annoyed at George -- those [sexist pig alert!] boobs [/sexist pig alert!] on his avatar are too distracting! ;D
Quote from: jwinter on August 08, 2012, 07:36:51 AM
Thanks for keeping the thread alive, Sarge!
Personally I find this much more interesting than a simple list of conductors, but I can't stay annoyed at George -- those [sexist pig alert!] boobs [/sexist pig alert!] on his avatar are too distracting! ;D
The mods prefer a euphemism be used there, Mr Winter. I would suggest 'Golden Bozos'... 0:)
8)
Quote from: jwinter on August 08, 2012, 07:36:51 AM
Thanks for keeping the thread alive, Sarge!
Personally I find this much more interesting than a simple list of conductors, but I can't stay annoyed at George -- those [sexist pig alert!] boobs [/sexist pig alert!] on his avatar are too distracting! ;D
It was not my intentioin to annoy, I just have very little experience with conductors and wanted more suggestions.
Quote from: jwinter on August 07, 2012, 04:46:24 AM
There are serious downsides, though. There's no Bach, but since I have the solo keyboard and chamber music already on the boat, I can live with that. A more serious bummer, searching around the net, I don't see any late Mozart symphonies or concertos, other than a lone recent #38 -- is it possible that with all of Haitink's recordings, he never did Mozart 35-41? No Jupiter symphony may yet be a deal-breaker, grrrrr
Profil offers a performance of Haitink conducting Mozart's Sym. 38; it's paired with the Bruckner 8th.
Quote from: George on
Today at 02:15:05 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20815.msg650686#msg650686)
It was not my intentioin to annoy, I just have very little experience with conductors and wanted more suggestions.
I kid, I kid! :) :-* :-* :-*
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on
Today at 11:42:29 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=20815.msg650656#msg650656)
The mods prefer a euphemism be used there, Mr Winter. I would suggest 'Golden Bozos'... 0:)
8)
It's a fair cop.... $:)