It has come to my attention that some forum members feel uncomfortable with what they see as pointedly rude remarks by me in response to certain posts by one or two other members. I agree that these remarks have been pointed. Whether it is rude to respond to rudeness with confrontational bluntness may be open to interpretation, but some of my remarks have certainly been less than gracious.
It's easy see why others might be disturbed by these unpleasant exchanges. They disturb me, too, and even more than when I witness similar exchanges in which I'm not involved -- as the more charitably-minded can easily understand.
For what it's worth, I bear no personal enmity towards the other posters concerned. If I didn't like them and value their contributions, I would just ignore them rather than confront them at the risk of further unpleasantness in the form of personal attacks directed at me.
Therefore, I apologize to the forum in general for my part in these open exchanges. In the future, when I feel that confrontation is called for, I will either do it via PM or, when circumstances warrant, notify a moderator. And when the incident involves a third party, as sometimes happens, I will PM him or her as well.
In this way I hope to spare forum members at large any further unpleasantness arising from difficult exchanges between me and other posters. I ask your forgiveness for my past transgressions of civility and, insofar as possible, your understanding.
Thank you David. Maybe more of us, me included, should do the same. We have lost members (some did come back, again, me included) this way. We should never forget that what got us together is a common love for music which in itself should be valued and treasured.
As someone who has pushed posters away, it is great and enviable to see someone take the higher road before that happens.
Thanks David for your post, a lesson for all of us to be courteous & understanding while members of this and other forums - Dave
In all honesty, fuck 'em. If they can't take a critique, they likely shouldn't be partaking in any form of adult conversation. I've seen your exchanges, and while they might be perceived as abrasive, that's simply who they are. There wasn't anything personal in them, and I find it insulting that you would seek to change your behavior because of some pussies. I truly hope you reconsider taking your posts to the private messaging.
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 07, 2012, 05:41:54 PM
In all honesty, fuck 'em. If they can't take a critique, they likely shouldn't be partaking in any form of adult conversation. I've seen your exchanges, and while they might be perceived as abrasive, that's simply who they are. There wasn't anything personal in them, and I find it insulting that you would seek to change your behavior because of some pussies. I truly hope you reconsider taking your posts to the private messaging.
And I hope the same about you, actually. This forum isn't about seeing how rude or abrasive one can be without recrimination. It's about discussing classical music in a civil way. There are places that are totally unmoderated and one can treat others in any way one feels like. Those days on this forum are long gone. Of course, you already know this too. :)
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Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 07, 2012, 05:41:54 PM
In all honesty, fuck 'em. If they can't take a critique, they likely shouldn't be partaking in any form of adult conversation. I've seen your exchanges, and while they might be perceived as abrasive, that's simply who they are. There wasn't anything personal in them, and I find it insulting that you would seek to change your behavior because of some pussies. I truly hope you reconsider taking your posts to the private messaging.
Do you realize how you appear to be with these posts? Do you care?
I'm no stranger to animosity myself, Dave, and I know we've had quite a few unpleasant exchanges in the past. I've actually apologized to you, but you and I seem to be getting along a lot better now than we have in the past and I want to thank you for putting up with my moronic, insensitive remarks. :) This is quite a noble thing you've done here and I sincerely accept your apology even though I wasn't mad or upset with you. I've tried my best to be civil with some members here however and with some it has been like pulling teeth, but I soldier on in hopes that we'll find some common ground.
All the best to you my friend.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2012, 06:26:24 PM
Do you realize how you appear to be with these posts? Do you care?
How do I appear?
@ David Ross, As a relative newcomer to both this forum and classical music, I just wanted to thank you for your obviously heart-felt post/apology. Although I have never been involved--at least on this forum--in any kind of hostile, unpleasant exchanges with either you or any of my other GMFG fellow members, I really do appreciate your courage in saying what you did. As a result, I feel more confident in posting my own observations and opinions w/o having to worry about being lambasted or mocked by those members--and I'm sure there are many of them--who are far more experienced in and knowledgeable of the classical music field.
Thanks again.
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 07, 2012, 06:56:18 PM
How do I appear?
Do I really have to tell you? Do you not see, that at the very least, you are being rude?
My apologies to others for perhaps derailing the thread a hair. I also feel it is very much in line with what it is discussing. I'll be happy to move off-line if that would better serve the conversation.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2012, 07:06:46 PM
Do I really have to tell you? Do you not see, that at the very least, you are being rude?
My apologies to others for perhaps derailing the thread a hair. I also feel it is very much in line with what it is discussing. I'll be happy to move off-line if that would better serve the conversation.
Well you don't have to tell me, but that won't help us along in the conversation if you're keeping things hidden.
In what way(s) have I been rude?
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 07, 2012, 07:11:16 PM
Well you don't have to tell me, but that won't help us along in the conversation if you're keeping things hidden.
In what way(s) have I been rude?
Re-read your first sentence in your first post of this thread. This is what David refers to as a 'trangsgression of civility' in his post.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2012, 07:15:37 PM
Re-read your first sentence in your first post of this thread. This is what David refers to as a 'trangsgression of civility' in his post.
That's one way to look at it, for sure, but if you look at the whole of my post the rest of my position is somewhat extrapolated.
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 07, 2012, 07:16:57 PM
That's one way to look at it, for sure, but if you look at the whole of my post the rest of my position is somewhat extrapolated.
This is not a question of context. You admit it is rude and then try to rationalize it. The rest of the post does not take the sting away from the start.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2012, 07:22:10 PM
This is not a question of context. You admit it is rude and then try to rationalize it. The rest of the post does not take the sting away from the start.
Interesting how you attribute something to me which I didn't assent to, but perhaps that is simply your way of discourse.
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 07, 2012, 07:23:53 PM
Interesting how you attribute something to me which I didn't assent to, but perhaps that is simply your way of discourse.
You amaze me. You wrote. "That is one way to look at it." Full stop. And, to be quite honest, I don't see how anyone can take the phrase eff em as anything but rude. That sadly, appears to be your way of discourse.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2012, 07:30:39 PM
You amaze me. You wrote. "That is one way to look at it." Full stop. And, to be quite honest, I don't see how anyone can take the phrase eff em as anything but rude. That sadly, appears to be your way of discourse.
Yes, I said that, but I didn't say it was the way that I looked it. Merely agreeing that your perspective is one among many. I'd prefer this to be an honest discussion. I'd hope you'd desire the same thing.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2012, 06:45:09 PM
...and with some it has been like pulling teeth, but I soldier on in hopes that we'll find some common ground....
***checks existence of actual molars*** :-\ :P ;D
Your post tacitly reminds us of some basic human truths expressed through a humble soul, David.
I have learned many things through some debate on GMG. It is necessary to be challenged, it enriches and sharpens listening and preferences, and I've changed my mind on many things through being accosted by opinions in the corridors of GMG. I once received a stinging response to something I said about Boulez Mahler 3, but in the sting were some near auditory DNA structures designed for a better adjustment of my ears to what I was hearing. Also, if everyone would just agree with me :P that atonal music is the biggest heap of *&$% ever to come out of Vienna, I wouldn't have to keep going back to it to see if I suddenly like it. :-\
Thanks for your post David, there is nothing more honourable than an honest fellow.
Quote from: Scots John on October 07, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
***checks existence of actual molars*** :-\ :P ;D
Your post tacitly reminds us of some basic human truths expressed through a humble soul, David.
I have learned many things through some debate on GMG. It is necessary to be challenged, it enriches and sharpens listening and preferences, and I've changed my mind on many things through being accosted by opinions in the corridors of GMG. I once received a stinging response to something I said about Boulez Mahler 3, but in the sting were some near auditory DNA structures designed for a better adjustment of my ears to what I was hearing. Also, if everyone would just agree with me :P that atonal music is the biggest heap of *&$% ever to come out of Vienna, I wouldn't have to keep going back to it to see if I suddenly like it. :-\
Thanks for your post David, there is nothing more honourable than an honest fellow.
Yeah, you know, it's always a good thing to get into a debate with somebody about something you feel pretty adamant about. I still can't get on with a lot of atonal music, but
Alban Berg has been this music's saving grace for me because I hear so much genuine honesty and heart-wrenching emotion in his music that I cannot just turn my head..err...ears the other way. I very much shared your position that this stuff was noise, but thankfully I found a lot of good music just through trial and error. All of this being said, I understand your point and agree, if we aren't challenged from time to time, then things could get quite stale and we become stagnated as listeners as a result of this purely going with the flow type of mentality. We all need to come to some bumps in the road so we can learn and grow from these types of exchanges with members here.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2012, 06:45:09 PM
I'm no stranger to animosity myself, Dave, and I know we've had quite a few unpleasant exchanges in the past. I've actually apologized to you, but you and I seem to be getting along a lot better now than we have in the past and I want to thank you for putting up with my moronic, insensitive remarks. :) This is quite a noble thing you've done here and I sincerely accept your apology even though I wasn't mad or upset with you. I've tried my best to be civil with some members here however and with some it has been like pulling teeth, but I soldier on in hopes that we'll find some common ground.
All the best to you my friend.
Thanks, John, for your gracious response ... and especially for confirming my belief that you and I have been getting along better recently and really are becoming friends (despite the way it might seem to third parties witnessing only our most difficult exchanges). ;)
Cheers, dude!
Well, more than once I was tempted to pick a fight with MI just for entertainment. But then something stopped me...
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 08, 2012, 08:15:56 AM
Thanks, John, for your gracious response ... and especially for confirming my belief that you and I have been getting along better recently and really are becoming friends (despite the way it might seem to third parties witnessing only our most difficult exchanges). ;)
Cheers, dude!
Thanks, Dave. Sometimes there can't help but be a little friction from time to time, but, yes, I think we're getting along better than we have in the past. Again, I thank you for your tolerance. :)
Quote from: springrite on October 08, 2012, 08:23:31 AM
Well, more than once I was tempted to pick a fight with MI just for entertainment. But then something stopped me...
I've certainly put my foot in my mouth more than enough times that it would make it easy for
anyone on this forum to call me an idiot. ;) :D
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 08, 2012, 08:26:47 AM
I've certainly put my foot in my mouth more than enough times that it would make it easy for anyone on this forum to call me an idiot. ;) :D
I don't think too many people would mind if you put your foot in your own mouth. What I have found is that if your foot appear to be aimed at my mouth, if I just keep my mouth shut for a few minutes, another willing mouth will open to accomodate the foot, thus freeing me from the trouble. Ha!
Quote from: springrite on October 08, 2012, 08:31:08 AM
I don't think too many people would mind if you put your foot in your own mouth. What I have found is that if your foot appear to be aimed at my mouth, if I just keep my mouth shut for a few minutes, another willing mouth will open to accomodate the foot, thus freeing me from the trouble. Ha!
Lol...:D This is true, Paul. :)
Quote from: springrite on October 08, 2012, 08:23:31 AM
Well, more than once I was tempted to pick a fight with MI just for entertainment. But then something stopped me...
Good judgment? (Abetted by your clinical experience, no doubt!) ;)
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 08, 2012, 08:36:52 AM
Good judgment? (Abetted by your clinical experience, no doubt!) ;)
:P
It's often said that people are angrier on the Internet — It's probably something to do with the lack of face-to-face contact, or the sounds of people's voices, or other humanizing cues, lowering our inhibitions.
In any case, one of the pleasures of GMG is that it remains a relatively civilized place. I have googled my way into discussions on other classical music boards that are frankly horrifying when you consider the insult-to-information ratio. Actually, the worst of these tend to be archived from boards that no longer exist, and it's easy to imagine what led to their demise.
Long live GMG!
Quote from: PaulSC on October 08, 2012, 01:22:34 PM
It's often said that people are angrier on the Internet — It's probably something to do with the lack of face-to-face contact, or the sounds of people's voices, or other humanizing cues, lowering our inhibitions.
Indeed.
There are a lot of changes in the brain that happen when interacting in person - we bond emotionally with these people, and that doesn't happen on a forum, at least not even close to the same degree.
And, in a real conversation, gestures and expressions are even more important than what is actually said, and there is none of that on a forum like this, at least not beyond the smilies.
Having more emotional connections with the subject matter than others participating in the conversation can't be a good thing.
And then there are psychopaths, who are extremely selfish, and get pleasure from offending others. They might be very bright otherwise. Usually it's best to just avoid these people.
Psychopathy is in essence a dysfunction of the brains that affects the emotions - mostly it makes them weaker. When Internet already decreases the emotional connections, psychopaths can obviously be even more problematic on forums than in real life.
So, on the Internet, even normal people can act like psychopaths. We ought to think of this, and try to control ourselves. If you feel offended by a post, reread it, and think whether there is any reason to feel offended, and think again before replying.
Quote from: North Star on October 08, 2012, 02:00:36 PMIf you feel offended by a post, reread it, and think whether there is any reason to feel offended, and think again before replying.
That's what puzzles me about people "leaving" a forum because somebody "drove them off". It's the goddamn internet! It's not somebody leaving a dead carcass at your front door day after day so you eventually decide to
call the cops move. It's just text.. on a screen.
Quote from: Rinaldo on October 08, 2012, 02:13:40 PM
It's just text.. on a screen.
What drives me away is too much drivel on my screen.
: (
No problem at all. We're all grownups. We can take it.
Quote from: bigshot on October 08, 2012, 02:30:18 PM
No problem at all. We're all grownups. We can take it.
Apparently not, as I've received some reprimands because of the supplications of simpering morons.
What a coincidence! Everyone who disagrees with me is a simpering moron, too!
Quote from: CaughtintheGaze on October 08, 2012, 02:36:35 PM
Apparently not, as I've received some reprimands because of the supplications of simpering morons.
Actually, you received reprimands because you were acting like a mannerless asshole. The fact that it got pointed out and you were asked to stop that behavior is not indicative of any particular failing on the part of the reporters. Fortunately, you are an adult and can take it. Which you did, gracefully at the time, less so now. :)
8)
I don't see any need for any sort of repremands around here.
*while sipping some Maj. D's*
Well everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out. 'Boards a better place with you, David....always has been.
Lock thread.
Good idea, Bill. Let's follow Rick's example and take the high road! Thread locked.
Coincidentally, I'm enjoying some Major D's, too!
Quote from: bigshot on October 08, 2012, 04:32:22 PM
I don't see any need for any sort of repremands around here.
That's the way it should be. :)
8)
Quote from: DavidRoss on October 08, 2012, 04:43:24 PM
Good idea, Bill. Let's follow Rick's example and take the high road! Thread locked.
Coincidentally, I'm enjoying some Major D's, too!
Thanks for that, David. I was going to do it, but I felt like it was your prerogative.
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