GMG Classical Music Forum

Hey folks,

Stockhausen composed ca. 370 individual works, just was curious roughly how much of it folks here at GMG have absorbed .. ? Pick the percentage that's approximately representative. 100% being most of it; 75% being roughly three quarters;  50% about half, et cetera .. 0% being under the 5% mark, meaning hardly anything or in fact nothing yet. My inquiring mind is curious and would like to know.

Thanks in advance.

Dittersdorf's compositions include more than 120 symphonies, 45 operas, dozens of concertos, and numerous chamber works. A lot of people once thought he was the bee's knees. History thought otherwise.

You take it wrong, as usual.

4 items in my collection:  Punct-Contrapunct,  Carré for 4 orchestras and 4 choirs,
Gruppen for 3 Orchestras,
Solo for Melody-Instrument with feedback

Quote from: James on October 23, 2012, 05:50:02 PM
0% being under the 5% mark, meaning hardly anything or in fact nothing yet.

5% = 16.5, and thus even 16 works is under 5%... Do you serious think that this kind of linear structure is useful or objective? Of course, we all know you designed the poll this way on purpose.
James, how many of Stockhausen's works have been recorded?
Others might be more interested in who has heard none/1-2/3-6/7-10 or so on.
But, and I want to say this before Sammy gets in here (;D), this is your poll...

And yes, I have heard less than 17 pieces by Stockhausen.

I would say I've heard not even 1% of Stockhausen's oeuvre which is really all I want to hear. I heard Gruppen (Abbado) a couple of months ago and I thought it was a monstrosity but thankfully Kurtag was there to save this recording. I understand you're fanatical about Stockhausen, James, but I would rather listen to music I actually enjoy.

A very low percentage, about 3%. I'm not a great fan of Stockhausen's music, although there are some of his compositions I really enjoy, like Klavierstücke (especially Klavierstuck X, such a very thrilling work), Zyklus, Gruppen and Kontra-Punkte.

I voted 10% but it might be more.  There was a period when I listened to a lot of Stockhausen; but I moved on and will only listen to his music rarely.  There is so much music available, and not just Classical music; that I find it a natural process to gravitate to those composers and possibly a single period in music history that speaks more eloquently to me.   

After sampling a wide variety of music from all periods and styles, I tend to think most people end up with a fairly focused taste.

Quote from: James on October 24, 2012, 02:48:04 AM
All of these are fantastic compositions. You might be interested in acquiring this upcoming release .. feat. some historic performances of some of your favorites.

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Thank you for the feedback, James. :)

Hmmm I heard most of it, perhaps 90%, so I voted 100%. There are quite a few variants of the same works that don't particularly interest me and that I wouldn't consider as separate and independent works. Just out of curiosity, I have about 50 releases from the Verlag, and about a dozen from other labels.

Quote from: James on October 24, 2012, 02:03:24 PM
Vinyl?

Of course, purchased when I was.... much younger, while I was exploring, before cd's existed.   But I never found myself upon a peak in Darien.

Quote from: James on October 26, 2012, 06:00:33 AM
What would be your personal top 5 ? Would they be the same 5 you recommend to a curious newbie who's interested in Maestro Stockhausen but perhaps wouldn't know where to begin .. ?

Personal top 5 (very tough choice, in no particular order):
- The Klavierstücke I-IX (counting it as a unit)
- Hymnen
- Kontakte
- Momente
- Kontra-punkte

No, they wouldn't be what I would recommend a newbie; that would have to include e.g. Tierkreis, Harlekin, Stimmung, Mantra, Gruppen and some selections from Licht.

Less than five percent, and it will probably stay that way.  My view of Stockhausen is rather like John/MI's.

Quote from: James on October 26, 2012, 08:13:38 AM
Hey Jeffrey .. what works have you tried?

Some of the Klavierstucke, and at least a couple of the other works, although which precise ones have (mercifully) faded from memory.  I found them (to be rather blunt) to be mostly noise and rubbish

It's probably best to say that Stockhausen's music is exactly the sort of 20th century production I dislike the most, and that my opinion of him is perhaps exactly the opposite of yours.

It's less than 5%. I have not to much time to listen to almost contemporary music. Zeitmasse was for me not very interesting but I was listenin to this Stimmung with the greatest pleasure:

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Some of my nonclassical oriented friends appreciated it as well.

I have listened to Gesang der Junglinge this year but have find it rather old-fashioned.

I plan to try more Stockhausen but not now.

Quote from: James on November 10, 2012, 06:40:33 AM
Just was curious .. what piece(s) of his kick-started this period/phrase/interest/curiousity? And in hindsight, on a deep & serious level .. what did you take away from the whole experience? & when you're in that 'rare mood' to immerse yourself in one of his creations 'these days', what work would that probably be?

1. Klavierstücke; Zyklus; Kontra-Punkte; Stimmung; Zeitmasse (the Boulez recording is one I return to often).  I generally prefer the chamber works to the orchestral ones, but this is true for almost all composers.

2.  Stockhausen was an important discovery for me and generally opened my eyes to the possibilities of using very controlled methods as well as random elements for composing, and this combination interested me a great deal; still does.  During the period when I was most interested in Stockhausen I too was pursuing music composition. 

3.  I would probably listen to the operas from Licht since I've only scratched the surface of these, although those pieces I listed are still ones I like to listen to.  His writing is something else I'd like to revisit.  His ideas about meter and rhythm, the whole idea of creating a scale of durations based on pitches and overtones and his ideas about work-long forms based on proportions are interesting. 

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I agree with an early post here that the close-to-linear structure of the options will probably render the results less interesting. It seems there should be much finer resolution at the bottom (1% is still four works! Many have not heard that!).

This is really just a poll-technical point (not a comment on Stockhausen's music, twould be the same thing with most composers' catalogues); from the general mathematical observation in the world at large that these kinds of things tend to follow exponential, rather than linear patterns.

i went through a bit of a stockhausen "phase" i guess

was never much interested in his music until a percussion workshop at my uni, where one of the pieces demonstrated started with a rather exciting moment with a big gong roar that got transformed into an electronic "vroom" and some piano and percussion whacks and etc. a while later i was looking for that piece in the library but couldn't remember the title or anything about it except that it had a tam-tam and was by Stockhausen. so i checked out a cd of Mikrophonie I & II and Telemusik. the latter two pieces didn't make a big impression on me but Mikrophonie I was a transformative listening experience; instantly compelling from first sound to last. (actually, i think out of all 19,425 individual tracks on my hard drive, it's still the one with the most plays.) i went back for more (Kontakte—the piece i was originally looking for; Mantra, Klavierstücke, Mixtur, Gesang die Jünglinge, etc etc)

and then after a while i stopped; a lot of stockhausen's electroacoustic music didn't appeal to me as much as that by other composers (many of the GRM-affiliated figures for instance) and i suppose i became increasingly interested in spectralism, music-as-performance and the work of lachenmann et al. i think what i've retained the strongest affinity for is the later works (Licht, Klang, etc), either on account of having been set off on a mysticism kick by scriabin and radulescu or because their watertight formal construction is made more obvious with the paring down of musical materials.

still think that if you had to single out three post-wwii 20th century composers whose music would be likely to survive the "test of time" it'd be stockhausen, messiaen and lutoslawski, but i know some disagree with me on that point >.>

Quote from: James on January 02, 2013, 02:22:34 PM
dyn, your top five Stockhausen works are?

i don't make top 5 lists of things

things i've listened to lately include Welt-Parlament aus Mittwoch, Freude, Sirius, Michaels Reise, Carré. i guess that's five works and they're all by stockhausen. i also recently acquired Inori but haven't listened to it yet

Regarding Stockhausen, does anyone have any suggestions about affordable ways of finding recordings of his ~1965-and-beyond works, including such works as Inori, Aus den Sieben Tagen, and, of course, Licht? I like Stockhausen's later works for the same reasons that James listed in one of his previous posts in this thread (more lyrical, smoother, etc.). Stockhausen is one of my favorite composers, but the only way I can "listen" to his music is by hearing the extensive samples available on http://stockhausencds.com/ , which is very annoying and hardly a concrete and satisfying musical experience. Amazon, eBay, and discogs unfortunately offer little affordable solace. I don't like listening to music via torrents or YouTube, either.

My Stockhausen collection thus far (very small compared to the average Stockhausen lover):

ENSEMBLE RECHERCHE (WERGO):
Kontra-Punkte
Refrain
Zeitmasse
Schlagtrio

XENIA PESTOVA, PASCAL MEYER, JAN PANIS (NAXOS):
Mantra

MARKUS STOCKHAUSEN, SUZANNE STEPHENS, ETC. (ECM RECORDS):
Donnerstag, Act 2: Michaels Reise (Solisten-Version)

Your help is graciously appreciated!

Stockhausen was both a great composer...and a terrible composer.  ???   The greatness comes across throughout the oeuvre, from the works which established his reputation in the 1950's through the LICHT operas.  The terrible aspect comes from the growing narcissism in the composer and the slow demise of his internal voice of doubt, which editing voice was replaced by another voice encouraging him that every idea had to be used...because it was his idea!

This is why I find an increasing amount of childish, rather than childlike, things in his output: e.g. I have a videotape of Stockhausen describing the symbolism of Examen and then a performance of it (see below).  There is certainly originality in having a singer become obsessed with a musical instrument ("O Basset-horn, Basset-horn!") and in having a crew perform in a kind of Ur-Cl!ck-Language. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/fbKmF7KkB5Q

There is also originality in e.g. creating a duck with 6 six legs coming out of its spine...but why would somebody do that...except to show off how unique their vision is?

Are there better and even great things in the later works?  Sure!  But the visitor from Sirius too often hid them from our ears.

He was the best of composers, he was the worst of composers.

Quote from: James on July 23, 2013, 03:13:54 AM
Those 3 discs you have are very fine indeed. www.arkivmusic.com has the DG versions of Donnerstag & Samstag complete (currently $44.99 a piece), and one of the DG Suzanne Stephens albums ($13.99); all of these appear within the exceptional Stockhausen Verlag label but are offered for less at arkiv.

Thank you! I didn't think to check arkiv, but will do so.

Since I do not know his total output, I have no idea what percentage of it I have heard. I have about 8 CDs, maybe 10.

My favorites: Stimmung, Carre, Inori.

Quote from: James on July 23, 2013, 01:54:40 PM
Oh and be on the look out for 2 documentaries coming soon, I've talked to the director of these and they will be getting wide release. They are on the widely acclaimed Sonntag aus LICHT & KLANG premieres. Steve Schick's MODE dvds of the Percussion Music of Stockhausen will be coming later this year too. Wergo .. has put out numerous Stockhausen albums recently, including an excellent disc of Michaels Reise, the full-blown version.  And finally, there is yet another LICHT documentary in the works of the recent Samstag aus LICHT quasi-concerts from this past June-July .. which featured absolutely wonderful performances. These are exciting times for this true creative GIANT's music, one smash hit after another  .. and they have only really begun to scratch the surface .. his work is an immense galaxy with so many layers and has so much potential to capture the imaginations and hearts of so many new generations of listeners, performers & organizers. I am sure there will be more important projects to come!

I will be on the lookout for those as well. :)

I think 5% would be an over-estimation, but I have heard a few of his works. Several excerpts from Licht, though not the full thing, most of the Klavierstucke, various chamber works, Stimmung, Gruppen, some electroacoustic stuff and that's about it. For such a prolific composer I feel I have barely scraped the surface. It is most unfortunate that recordings of his music are so hard for me to come buy, and when they are they're on his own label...which would mean suicide for my bank account.

I don't know that anyone has heard 100% of his oeuvre unless you've been to certain key European venues. The premiere of Fresco, for instance. There's also the problem of how to treat the vast number of different arrangements Stockhausen has produced (many of which have been recorded on the most obscure discs from the composer's own label) from various layers of his compositions.

So, I'd guess I've only heard about 95%.