GMG Classical Music Forum

I'm curious because I'm listening to his new Chopin album, which is my first Lang Lang CD ever. Mostly I'm curious if there's anybody else who has taken so long to hear Lang Lang playing something.

My opinion is somewhere between "Like him" and "Eh," so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I've not heard this Chopin, nor any of his recordings so far, but I have heard him live maybe four or five times - mostly in one of the Beethoven or Chopin piano concertos. The occasions ranged from "excellent" to "what a waste," but in every case, he demonstrated that he does have considerable talent. I do think he is extraordinarily gifted, but that said, he sometimes seems bored or running on autopilot. Also, thankfully he seems to have tamed some of his body movement; that annoying "swaying-back-and-forth-and-looking-up-at-the-sky," for example, happens less frequently.

But the last time I heard him, I kept thinking that he should be commissioning some pieces - works that are too hard for anyone else to play, which would challenge him more. I think some of the things he chooses are just way too easy; he needs to ask someone like Ferneyhough to write something for him.  ;D

--Bruce

Quote from: Brewski on December 30, 2012, 02:39:15 PM
My opinion is somewhere between "Like him" and "Eh," so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I've not heard this Chopin, nor any of his recordings so far, but I have heard him live maybe four or five times - mostly in one of the Beethoven or Chopin piano concertos. The occasions ranged from "excellent" to "what a waste," but in every case, he demonstrated that he does have considerable talent. I do think he is extraordinarily gifted, but that said, he sometimes seems bored or running on autopilot. Also, thankfully he seems to have tamed some of his body movement; that annoying "swaying-back-and-forth-and-looking-up-at-the-sky," for example, happens less frequently.

But the last time I heard him, I kept thinking that he should be commissioning some pieces - works that are too hard for anyone else to play, which would challenge him more. I think some of the things he chooses are just way too easy; he needs to ask someone like Ferneyhough to write something for him.  ;D

--Bruce

Good post.

Thanks for the very interesting reply, Bruce! One thought; this comment -

Quote from: Brewski on December 30, 2012, 02:39:15 PMI kept thinking that he should be commissioning some pieces - works that are too hard for anyone else to play, which would challenge him more.

- made me imagine Marc-Andre Hamelin, in a leather sheriff's vest and ten-gallon hat, with clinking boots, walking up to Lang Lang with a sheaf of impossibly hard sheet music, gritting his teeth together, and hissing out, Eastwood-style... "Pianos at dawn!"

Quote from: Lake Swan on December 30, 2012, 02:45:06 PM
Good post.

Thanks, Dave!

Quote from: Brian on December 30, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
Thanks for the very interesting reply, Bruce! One thought; this comment -

"I kept thinking that he should be commissioning some pieces - works that are too hard for anyone else to play, which would challenge him more."

- made me imagine Marc-Andre Hamelin, in a leather sheriff's vest and ten-gallon hat, with clinking boots, walking up to Lang Lang with a sheaf of impossibly hard sheet music, gritting his teeth together, and hissing out, Eastwood-style... "Pianos at dawn!"

Ha! ;D

Actually the two of them should co-commission pieces, like a set of new etudes from someone - a set that might rival Ligeti's, for example.

--Bruce

paging Henning...

Quote from: Brewski on December 30, 2012, 02:39:15 PM
But the last time I heard him, I kept thinking that he should be commissioning some pieces - works that are too hard for anyone else to play, which would challenge him more. I think some of the things he chooses are just way too easy

I've always thought of Lang Lang as a showman, and I think that's where lot of the objections to him are based: he doesn't just play impressively but plays to impress, in repertoire where other goals ought to matter. But is he really such a towering virtuoso (purely in technical terms) that he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Hamelin? I think of H as being capable of feats that only a handful of others can manage, whereas dozens of pianists seemed to be equipped with techniques that equal LL's.

EDIT: A day later, I've realized I have no business calling LL a "showman" - I think that is blaming him unfairly for his charisma.

Quote from: James on December 30, 2012, 03:54:28 PM
I've heard little from him .. from what I've seen he plays rep. that's well trodden ground and that doesn't really interest me.

Ditto. Plus, his grimacing drove me nuts! :P

8)

Quote from: Brian on December 30, 2012, 02:47:00 PM
Thanks for the very interesting reply, Bruce! One thought; this comment -

- made me imagine Marc-Andre Hamelin, in a leather sheriff's vest and ten-gallon hat, with clinking boots, walking up to Lang Lang with a sheaf of impossibly hard sheet music, gritting his teeth together, and hissing out, Eastwood-style... "Pianos at dawn!"

Brian - no comment on Lang Lang, but I have seen M-A Hamelin in concert locally (a while back) and his concert & encores were just stupendous; plus, I own a lot of Hamelin recordings - I think that Hamelin as Eastwood would easily be the winner!  Dave  :D

P.S. Bruce- thanks for that excellent & insightful post - :)

Quote from: PaulSC on December 30, 2012, 03:52:08 PM
I've always thought of Lang Lang as a showman, and I think that's where lot of the objections to him are based: he doesn't just play impressively but plays to impress, in repertoire where other goals ought to matter. But is he really such a towering virtuoso (purely in technical terms) that he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Hamelin? I think of H as being capable of feats that only a handful of others can manage, whereas dozens of pianists seemed to be equipped with techniques that equal LL's.

EDIT: A day later, I've realized I have no business calling LL a "showman" - I think that is blaming him unfairly for his charisma.

Rethinking part of my earlier post. But I do still wonder if Brewski, and others, regard LL as Hamelin's peer when it comes to technique. I've never thought of him that way, but maybe I should...

Quote from: PaulSC on December 31, 2012, 10:58:19 AM
Rethinking part of my earlier post. But I do still wonder if Brewski, and others, regard LL as Hamelin's peer when it comes to technique. I've never thought of him that way, but maybe I should...

As LL doesn't play anything remotely challenging I don't see how people can describe him as technically gifted. (Hamelin is infinitely better in this regard). He's just another pianist but one with the whole of DGGs promotional arm directly behind him. This begs the questio, if DG hadn't taken him on then would we really know who he is today? One thing I do know is that he does not know how to play Beethoven. This was shown up in master class he did with Daniel Barenboim. You can find it on Youtube if you are interested. Jonathan Biss was also a participant.

Replying to SonicMan46 (Dave), PaulSC, and Holden, I do think Hamelin is considerably more gifted than Lang Lang - and in repertoire choice there is just no comparison (to date). Hamelin has been called (perhaps with a bit of hyperbole) a "supervirtuoso," which may be overstatement but his playing is often right in line with that assessment. (He also has a great sense of humor - something Lang Lang might want to cultivate at some point.) I've heard Hamelin even more often live; those experiences have often been extraordinary. And if you compare his discography with Lang Lang's, the difference is immediately apparent.

--Bruce

Quote from: Holden on December 31, 2012, 12:57:55 PM
As LL doesn't play anything remotely challenging I don't see how people can describe him as technically gifted. (Hamelin is infinitely better in this regard). He's just another pianist but one with the whole of DGGs promotional arm directly behind him. This begs the questio, if DG hadn't taken him on then would we really know who he is today? One thing I do know is that he does not know how to play Beethoven. This was shown up in master class he did with Daniel Barenboim. You can find it on Youtube if you are interested. Jonathan Biss was also a participant.

I've seen most of those Barenboim master classes on Youtube, including the ones with Biss and LL. And I agree, LL is unimpressive in the Apassionata. I do enjoy Barenboim's coaching, a lot of which emphasizes thinking orchestrally - not surprisingly in light of his extensive experience as a conductor.

Quote from: James on December 31, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
Perhaps we should have a poll for Hamelin too? I'm not sure if he's better or worse than LL .. sure he's a superb technician, but often .. from what I've heard, a) his choice of rep. isn't that interesting & b) it's not that musical or terribly distinctive, it's more technically accomplished over all else, and appeal in that wears out fast .. perhaps I've heard the wrong stuff? And is Barenboim really that fantastic a pianist either? I mean really .. most of what I have heard from him on that end is just sub-par stuff.

I highly disagree with what I bolded above. What he chooses to perform may not be interesting to you, but I've found many of the works he performed to be fantastic, including the Shostakovich PCs, the Busoni PC, the Reger PC, Bernstein's Age of Anxiety (a work that doesn't get enough performances), among others. I also think he plays with much emotion. He's not a technician, although he has plenty of virtuosity. Anyway, I've enjoyed his performances and think he brings a much needed clarity to a lot of the music he performs, especially to the denser works.

Quote from: Holden on December 31, 2012, 12:57:55 PM
As LL doesn't play anything remotely challenging I don't see how people can describe him as technically gifted. (Hamelin is infinitely better in this regard). He's just another pianist but one with the whole of DGGs promotional arm directly behind him. This begs the questio, if DG hadn't taken him on then would we really know who he is today? One thing I do know is that he does not know how to play Beethoven. This was shown up in master class he did with Daniel Barenboim. You can find it on Youtube if you are interested. Jonathan Biss was also a participant.

Not remotely challenging? In what way do you mean?

I also thought the object of attending classes was to learn how to play, not be because you are the finished article!

It is a lots of stuff we talk about Lang Lang which comes from people who don't like success. Yes he is a showman but then so was Liszt and people criticised him for it. An awful lot of people come to hear Lang Lang play including probably quite a number of young people who would not otherwise listen to classical music. So good luck to him I say. He's certainly not my favourite pianist but I certainly will not be carping about his success as he has worked very hard on his technique and his playing. So good luck to him.

Quote from: James on December 31, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
Perhaps we should have a poll for Hamelin too? I'm not sure if he's better or worse than LL .. sure he's a superb technician, but often .. from what I've heard, a) his choice of rep. isn't that interesting & b) it's not that musical or terribly distinctive, it's more technically accomplished over all else, and appeal in that wears out fast .. perhaps I've heard the wrong stuff?

hamelin has always struck me as somewhat light on warmth & humanity in spite of his impressive technique, but perhaps that's just a consequence of e.g. Alkan not quite measuring up to Chopin as a composer etc.

i haven't heard any of the orchestral recordings mirror image recommends except the Busoni concerto, which while impressive enough feels like it contains a lot of musical "filler"... for an hour-long piece it gives the impression of easily being able to fit into thirty minutes

Quote
And is Barenboim really that fantastic a pianist either? I mean really .. most of what I have heard from him on that end is just sub-par stuff.[/font]

in general i like his earlier recordings (some of which i have on LP) better than more recent stuff


i've never heard Lang Lang play so i can't comment on him either way, but i voted against him on principle cos too mainstream ;)

Some of the comments here are a bit nonsensical. Hamelin is a tremendous technician but he also plays other works - eg Haydn sonatas really well. LL is far more mainstream but why not? How does that disqualify his playing? I know Fanny Waterman said about him that he was a showman in her opinion but she wouldn't mind having his pair of hands! Why can't we just appreciate pianists for what they are and what they do without these interminable comparisons?

Quote from: DavidA on January 01, 2013, 01:40:53 AM
Some of the comments here are a bit nonsensical. Hamelin is a tremendous technician but he also plays other works - eg Haydn sonatas really well. LL is far more mainstream but why not? How does that disqualify his playing? I know Fanny Waterman said about him that he was a showman in her opinion but she wouldn't mind having his pair of hands! Why can't we just appreciate pianists for what they are and what they do without these interminable comparisons?

But then, what will set me apart as apart as connoisseur of classical music if I like the same thing (person) that a larger section of the general public does? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/Arrogant-arrogant-proud-lordly-smiley-emoticon-000667-medium.gif)

>:D

Quote from: DavidA on January 01, 2013, 01:40:53 AM
Some of the comments here are a bit nonsensical. Hamelin is a tremendous technician but he also plays other works - eg Haydn sonatas really well. LL is far more mainstream but why not? How does that disqualify his playing?

Pianists are only cool if they're really obscure. It's like, an unwritten law or something.

Quote from: Opus106 on January 01, 2013, 01:57:52 AM
But then, what will set me apart as apart as connoisseur of classical music if I like the same thing (person) that a larger section of the general public does? (http://images.zaazu.com/img/Arrogant-arrogant-proud-lordly-smiley-emoticon-000667-medium.gif)

>:D

Many a true word spoken in jest!  :P

Quote from: dyn on January 01, 2013, 02:06:25 AM
Pianists are only cool if they're really obscure. It's like, an unwritten law or something.

It's not actually the pianists who are cool but rather the admirers who want to be cool by liking a pianist no-one has heard of.

Interesting that ina programme by the BBC on LL, critic Bryce Morrison said that to succeed as a classical pianist it takes a lot of talent, an great deal of application and a huge amount of luck. LL ticks all three boxes. I would also add that he has a huge amount of charisma and personal charm which sees him leap-frog other pianists of equal talent. But that's life, isn't it!

The criteria for this thread were basically set by the choices in the poll and posts are where we qualify what we voted for. The basic question is what do we think of LL as a pianist/musician and we have answered that according to our preferences. There are a number of posters here (I'm not including myself) who have much experience with classical piano music and pianists. They know who they like and why and the converse is also true. DavidA obviously likes LL and good on him. A number of us don't and like David we are also entitled to that opinion. I can remember a thread many years ago on Glenn Gould that was far more polarising than this thread appears to be and provided discussion stays within civil bounds it is good to have this debate on Lang Lang.

I haven't heard much of Lang Lang, but what I have heard hasn't impressed me that much. For example, I really can't stand the way he plays Rachmaninoff. I think it's the way he never lets the orchestra take over, and recede when he should. For example, when Richter plays Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto, Richter's arpeggios sound "under" or "interwoven" with the first main melody, with only the more "melodically important" notes coming through, and the bass notes a deep anchoring rumble. When Lang Lang plays this you can hear all of his notes OVER the orchestra. They don't blend at all, and his deep bass chords sound like hammer blows, not a piano. In other words, I hear Lang Lang playing, not just music. Still, he has great technical abilities, and I certainly have nothing against him personally. The way he plays just doesn't suite me, I guess, and that's okay. He's still a great pianist, with great technical ability, and I love that he brings lots of people to concert halls. Maybe as he gets older he'll "mature." I feel guilty saying that, as good as he is, and as awful as I am on the piano, but comparing him to other virtuoso pianists I would still say it's a valid, if very subjective, conclusion.

Quote from: AdamFromWashington on January 01, 2013, 10:47:06 PM
I haven't heard much of Lang Lang, but what I have heard hasn't impressed me that much. For example, I really can't stand the way he plays Rachmaninoff. I think it's the way he never lets the orchestra take over, and recede when he should. For example, when Richter plays Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto, Richter's arpeggios sound "under" or "interwoven" with the first main melody, with only the more "melodically important" notes coming through, and the bass notes a deep anchoring rumble. When Lang Lang plays this you can hear all of his notes OVER the orchestra. They don't blend at all, and his deep bass chords sound like hammer blows, not a piano. In other words, I hear Lang Lang playing, not just music. Still, he has great technical abilities, and I certainly have nothing against him personally. The way he plays just doesn't suite me, I guess, and that's okay. He's still a great pianist, with great technical ability, and I love that he brings lots of people to concert halls. Maybe as he gets older he'll "mature." I feel guilty saying that, as good as he is, and as awful as I am on the piano, but comparing him to other virtuoso pianists I would still say it's a valid, if very subjective, conclusion.

Which is probably the reason that he is known as 'Bang Bang'

Quote from: Holden on January 01, 2013, 11:23:22 AM
The criteria for this thread were basically set by the choices in the poll and posts are where we qualify what we voted for. The basic question is what do we think of LL as a pianist/musician and we have answered that according to our preferences. There are a number of posters here (I'm not including myself) who have much experience with classical piano music and pianists. They know who they like and why and the converse is also true. DavidA obviously likes LL and good on him. A number of us don't and like David we are also entitled to that opinion. I can remember a thread many years ago on Glenn Gould that was far more polarising than this thread appears to be and provided discussion stays within civil bounds it is good to have this debate on Lang Lang.

Please note I am not in the LL fan club. I don't have any of his recordings. I do think, though, that he is a talented pianist with something to say. I also think behind the showmanship there is a heart for reaching people with classical music - people who would not normally listen to it. I know it's heresy to those who want a tight-lipped exclusive club but I rather enjoyed seeing him play Liszt  at the Round House with lights and dry ice!

Good point David.

Quote from: DavidA on January 04, 2013, 12:59:47 PM
I also think behind the showmanship there is a heart for reaching people with classical music - people who would not normally listen to it. I know it's heresy to those who want a tight-lipped exclusive club but I rather enjoyed seeing him play Liszt  at the Round House with lights and dry ice!

Agree with this (and others who have expressed similar sentiments). And I'd be 100% fine with a little dry ice and lights now and then - Simon Rattle, are you listening?  ;D

--Bruce

Quote from: Brewski on January 04, 2013, 01:27:23 PM
Agree with this (and others who have expressed similar sentiments). And I'd be 100% fine with a little dry ice and lights now and then - Simon Rattle, are you listening?  ;D

--Bruce

I think there are certain musicians who can get away with this sort of thing. Lang Lang is one of them. They seem to have the charisma and the talent to do it. Like the young Chinese pianist Yuja Wang coming to play Rachmaninov three in a miniskirt at Hollywood bowl. This is not for everyone of course - just those who can carry things like this off.

Just to add a quote to the above:

The veteran artist manager Edna Landau, who advises young musicians, said: "This generation is a much more visual generation. Every artist has a responsibility to look as good as they can. It's not different than if you are going for a job interview. You're trying to win over fans and get more engagements, so one should look great."

I find the stink of pop-style promotion about him to be a turn off.  Not that I'm much of a pianophile anyway.

Quote from: Daverz on January 05, 2013, 12:02:38 AM
I find the stink of pop-style promotion about him to be a turn off.  Not that I'm much of a pianophile anyway.

But there's a whole lot of people who like it and they are the ones Lang Lang is trying to reach out to with his playing. I really do believe he is trying to communicate his love of music to other people as well as building a career for himself. I know the BBC showed him playing at some pop festival where no other classical musician had ever gone. He played classical piano music and not crossover stuff and people sat and listened. So I say good luck to him. I think Liszt would have done the same.

Quote from: Brian on December 30, 2012, 02:22:28 PM
I'm curious because I'm listening to his new Chopin album, which is my first Lang Lang CD ever. Mostly I'm curious if there's anybody else who has taken so long to hear Lang Lang playing something.

I have his PC Chopin recording. Nice recording, although I tend to not listening to these works.

'Lang Lang Shred'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysHZ9g0UA98


Best video of Lang Lang ever, cried with laughter... ;)

This remark by Tianwa Yang in a new interview (http://www.naxos.com/news/default.asp?op=1045&displayMenu=Naxos_News&type=2) might be relevant:

'To put it simply: in China I learned mostly how to master the violin; in the West I learned how to understand music. As a kid I learned how to deal with the technique, how to make it all sound brilliant and effective; when I came to Europe, I relearned everything. I realised it's not just about playing, but about "telling" the music, if I can put it that way. And I've never looked back.'

Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2013, 12:56:54 PM
This remark by Tianwa Yang in a new interview (http://www.naxos.com/news/default.asp?op=1045&displayMenu=Naxos_News&type=2) might be relevant:

'To put it simply: in China I learned mostly how to master the violin; in the West I learned how to understand music. As a kid I learned how to deal with the technique, how to make it all sound brilliant and effective; when I came to Europe, I relearned everything. I realised it's not just about playing, but about "telling" the music, if I can put it that way. And I've never looked back.'

Yeah, she's the real deal, though I've only heard a few of her Sarasate discs.

Quote from: DavidA on January 07, 2013, 10:24:25 AM
But there's a whole lot of people who like it and they are the ones Lang Lang is trying to reach out to with his playing. I really do believe he is trying to communicate his love of music to other people as well as building a career for himself. I know the BBC showed him playing at some pop festival where no other classical musician had ever gone. He played classical piano music and not crossover stuff and people sat and listened. So I say good luck to him. I think Liszt would have done the same.

We'll see.  My skepticism has no effect on Mr. Lang Lang's sales, I'm sure.

Tianwa Yang is the real deal, and you should hear her Piazzolla too, but I think her comments have implications for Lang Lang too. It's my understanding that he's more recently taken up studies in Europe, as she did, and he too is starting to mature and see musical works as stories to be told rather than challenges to be mastered. Perhaps he is undergoing the same maturation process she did - only, instead of growing into a true 'musician' as a teenager, like Ms. Yang, Lang Lang is finally earning his job title in his thirties.

In the 'eh' category.  His LvB PC 1 & 4 disc with Eschenbach was not very good, but I've heard some concert relays that show promise - or the opposite.  On the one hand was a dreadful Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody 2, but on the other, I've heard some better than expected Chopin and Mozart.  He clearly has chops, but will he mature into an artist I seek out?  I don't know.